{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5770", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5770, "subject": "Jahlee and Merryn", "messages": 5, "voices": 3, "first": "2010-11-07T13:05:39+00:00", "last": "2010-11-08T18:51:36+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-07T13:05:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jahlee and Merryn", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just reading the part in RttW in which Jahlee and Merryn and Silkhorn and Severian\nare together in the Matachin Tower. Some have taken Merryn's statement regarding\nSeverian, \"He's my brother\" at face value as a solution to the BotNS mystery of\nwho is Severian's twin sister, Severa. A simple, neat answer.\n \nI tend to agree with Borski who, in Solar Labyrinth, argues that perhaps it is too \nsimple and neat. Actually I think Borski misses some clues in this scene that \nadditionally support his candidate for Severa- Jolenta.\n \nJahlee's mention of Merryn's difficulty with animals and Severian's perception of \ntheir shared witchiness seems to suggest a connection between these two characters\nand generally, I think, between witches and vampires. This connection is supported\nif we trace the European witch and vampire legends back to their Greek roots of the\ngoddess Hecate and her lamia companions.\n \nJust before the cell scene, Jahlee is teasing Silkhorn asking if she'd be better as\na brunette. I think this calls attention the fact that she is currently a redhead (if\nI remember correctly). Next she asks if she should give herself bigger breasts and a\nsmaller waist.\n \nJolenta (perhaps a stage name) is a red head with large breasts and a small waist. She\nplays a character named Jahi on stage, who is a vampiric demon, perhaps with fangs. \nMaybe Wolfe is trying to use a Jahlee/Jahi vampiric association to connect Jolenta with \nwitches here to provide clues that she is, indeed, a primary consideration as Severa.\n \nSeverian sees an adult Merryn when he is a child and the possible suggestion that she's\nhad something akin to facelift surgery is evidence that she is too old to be Severian's twin \n(assuming no cloning is involved). The RttW scene also notes that Merryn moves like someone \n\"stiff with age\", further disqualifying her and elevating Jolenta as a Severa candidate.\n \n \n \n[some wild speculation, just for fun- I've been told by people of the time period that\nThe Exorcist, book and movie, had a huge impact on American Catholics. That story involves \na battle between Father Merrin and the wind demon, Pazuzu. In Babylonian mythology, Pazuzu\nwas in conflict with a witch/vampiric demon named Lamashtu. Possible Wolfe inspiration?] \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CD7F302.7070203@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-11-08T12:54:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jahlee and Merryn", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/7/2010 7:05 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nJolenta (perhaps a stage name) is a red head with large breasts and a small waist. She\nplays a character named Jahi on stage, who is a vampiric demon, perhaps with fangs.\nMaybe Wolfe is trying to use a Jahlee/Jahi vampiric association to connect Jolenta with\nwitches here to provide clues that she is, indeed, a primary consideration as Severa." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are we sure Jahi is a demon in the play rather than a Lilith figure? Cos \nJolenta and Dorcas play two other characters who are overtly identified \nas the two demons in the play." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-08T17:23:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jahlee and Merryn", "in_reply_to": "<4CD7F302.7070203@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Are we sure Jahi is a demon in the play rather than a Lilith figure? Cos \nJolenta and Dorcas play two other characters who are overtly identified as the two demons \nin the play." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIn Persian/Zoroastrian religion, Jahi is a cognate figure to Lilith, just as Meschia and \nMeschianne are cognates to Adam and Eve. So I think the real question is whether Lilith/Jahi\nshould be considered a demoness or not. Interesting that feminists have co-opted Lilith as a\nsymbol of femininity falsely demonized by the male-dominated Judeo-Christian culture and \nsociety.\n \nIn reading Wolfe, I often think he is personally conflicted on this issue. Is it possible for\na even an converted Catholic to have Madonna/Whore complex with regard to women? ;- )\n \nIn seriousness, I do think we see some of this dual nature reflected in many Sun series women.\nAngelic Dorcas, Pia, Apheta, Seawrack etc. have their dark, sexual manipulative sides. Demonic \nAgia, Hyacinth?, Fava, Jahlee etc. have their soft, caring, feminine sides. Thecla seems pretty \n50/50.\n \nAnyway, the Zoroastrian connection is important to the RttW-inspired expansion of my GUT I'm \nworking on. But, perhaps because I am not religious, I find some of this mystic mythology, esp. \ngnosticism, difficult to grasp. But working on it.\n \n(I think I need to find a new term. GUT may be losing its sense of self-mockery with repetition,\nnot really being a theory and certainly not being grand. I still have some hopes for a unifying\naspect. Maybe I should switch to Personal Onotological Opus?) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CD83789.3030106@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-08T17:46:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jahlee and Merryn", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (08-11-2010 17:23):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "GUT may be losing its sense of self-mockery with repetition, not really\nbeing a theory and certainly not being grand. I still have some hopes\nfor a unifying aspect." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Did I mention it's the 'U' that's the weak part?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-08T18:51:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jahlee and Merryn", "in_reply_to": "<4CD83789.3030106@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "GUT may be losing its sense of self-mockery with repetition, not really\nbeing a theory and certainly not being grand. I still have some hopes\nfor a unifying aspect." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio P. Marques: Did I mention it's the 'U' that's the weak part?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, you have now and that's what is important. Thanks Antonio. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }