{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5772", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5772, "subject": "The Cistern under the bell keep", "messages": 23, "voices": 6, "first": "2010-11-10T22:19:22+00:00", "last": "2010-11-14T21:51:57+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<2DD5B291-8BBB-4C81-8E4E-F440585DE7D9@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-11-10T22:19:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cistern under the bell keep", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian mentions the cistern under the Bell Keep at least 8 times in his five volumes.\nDoes anyone find a particular significance to it? I haven't. He seems to use it for comparison only, but it keeps coming up throughout the books.\n\n~Mike" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CDCF16D.1050309@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-11-12T07:49:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cistern under the bell keep", "in_reply_to": "<2DD5B291-8BBB-4C81-8E4E-F440585DE7D9@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/10/2010 4:19 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nSeverian mentions the cistern under the Bell Keep at least 8 times in his five volumes.\nDoes anyone find a particular significance to it? I haven't. He seems to use it for comparison only, but it keeps coming up throughout the books." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well it provides foreshadowing of the flushing of the vinculum. It also \ngives a plausible reason for a lifelong dweller in urban medieval \nsqualor to be familiar with the appearance and other properties of a \nlarge volume of clear, fresh water, the better to analogize and \nmetaphorize for the first world reader." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CDD3EB4.3000109@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-11-12T13:18:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cistern under the bell keep", "in_reply_to": "<4CDCF16D.1050309@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And the flushing of the vinculum foreshadows the flooding of Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/12/2010 2:49 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 11/10/2010 4:19 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian mentions the cistern under the Bell Keep at least 8 times in \nhis five volumes.\nDoes anyone find a particular significance to it? I haven't. He \nseems to use it for comparison only, but it keeps coming up \nthroughout the books." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well it provides foreshadowing of the flushing of the vinculum. It \nalso gives a plausible reason for a lifelong dweller in urban medieval \nsqualor to be familiar with the appearance and other properties of a \nlarge volume of clear, fresh water, the better to analogize and \nmetaphorize for the first world reader." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-12T14:12:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cistern under the bell keep", "in_reply_to": "<4CDD3EB4.3000109@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff- And the flushing of the vinculum foreshadows the flooding of Urth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nTrue. Also has a parallel in the flooding and cleansing of that underground place (forget \nwhat it was called) with all the corpses on Green.\n \nSeems like both might have a thematic cousin in Heracles' flooding and cleansing of the \nAugean Stables. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<7FD511E5-6641-4ECF-B52B-2EFD5FE49E84@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-11-12T14:45:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cistern under the bell keep", "in_reply_to": "<4CDD3EB4.3000109@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 12, 2010, at 5:18 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nAnd the flushing of the vinculum foreshadows the flooding of Urth.\n\nOn 11/12/2010 2:49 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/10/2010 4:19 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Severian mentions the cistern under the Bell Keep at least 8 times in his five volumes.\nDoes anyone find a particular significance to it? I haven't. He seems to use it for comparison only, but it keeps coming up throughout the books." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well it provides foreshadowing of the flushing of the vinculum. It also gives a plausible reason for a lifelong dweller in urban medieval squalor to be familiar with the appearance and other properties of a large volume of clear, fresh water, the better to analogize and metaphorize for the first world reader." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmm. I guess so. Perhaps in terms of potential. It's something his memory keeps returning to, so perhaps this represents the potential of deluge. I think there might me more." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CDD6AE0.1070506@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-11-12T16:27:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cistern under the bell keep", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good catch!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/12/2010 9:12 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff- And the flushing of the vinculum foreshadows the flooding of Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "True. Also has a parallel in the flooding and cleansing of that underground place (forget\nwhat it was called) with all the corpses on Green.\n\nSeems like both might have a thematic cousin in Heracles' flooding and cleansing of the\nAugean Stables. \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CDD7112.4040707@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-11-12T16:53:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Cistern under the bell keep", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also, since the \"underground place\" choked with corpses was called a \nsewer in the text, there is a strong cloacal connection with the Stables." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/12/2010 9:12 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff- And the flushing of the vinculum foreshadows the flooding of Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "True. Also has a parallel in the flooding and cleansing of that underground place (forget\nwhat it was called) with all the corpses on Green.\n\nSeems like both might have a thematic cousin in Heracles' flooding and cleansing of the\nAugean Stables. \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CDD7917.8040402@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-11-12T17:27:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typee, incidentally", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Having recently finished Typee, by Herman Melville---\n\nFirst, there is a character called the Old Leech.\n\nSecond, near the close of the novel (Chapter 26), Melville clearly \ncondemns the brutality of the conversion of Pacific natives by (mostly \nProtestant) missionaries. It presents a moral problem that Melville \ndeals with as follows:\n\nLest the slightest misconception should arise from anything thrown out\nin this chapter, or indeed in any other part of the volume, let me here\nobserve that against the cause of missions in, the abstract no Christian\ncan possibly be opposed: it is in truth a just and holy cause. But\nif the great end proposed by it be spiritual, the agency employed to\naccomplish that end is purely earthly; and, although the object in\nview be the achievement of much good, that agency may nevertheless be\nproductive of evil. In short, missionary undertaking, however it may\nblessed of heaven, is in itself but human; and subject, like everything\nelse, to errors and abuses.\n\n\nThis solution, that missionary work is \"just and holy\" but missionaries \nare \"earthly\" and \"productive of evil,\" is so reminiscent of one \n\"solution\" to the puzzle presented by the Hierodules, Vodalus, and the \nactions of the undines toward Severian---that even evil forces do the \nwork of the Increate---that I think they must be related. In fact, the \nHeirodules on Urth from the perspective of a citizen of the Commonwealth \nmust resemble an islander's view of missionaries, given the same level \nof knowledge and grasp of history. (Which in either case is far less \nthan our own.)\n\nIn other words, the Hierodules treat Urth like an island of savages, and \ntheir \"uplifting\" efforts are not too different from the \"missionary \nwork\" that corrupts and enslaves the islanders, in Melville's view. If \nthis is not immediately apparent, perhaps is it partly because we are \nnot accustomed to seeing ourselves as the savages in a colonial situation.\n\nThe jungle setting is one Wolfe returns to again and again, perhaps with \nsimilar ideas." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-12T18:38:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typee, incidentally", "in_reply_to": "<4CDD7917.8040402@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: This solution, that missionary work is \"just and holy\" but missionaries \nare \"earthly\" and \"productive of evil,\" is so reminiscent of one \"solution\" to the puzzle \npresented by the Hierodules, Vodalus, and the actions of the undines toward Severian---that \neven evil forces do the work of the Increate---that I think they must be related. In fact, the \nHeirodules on Urth from the perspective of a citizen of the Commonwealth must resemble an \nislander's view of missionaries, given the same level of knowledge and grasp of history." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAt the end of CotA there is an elaborate blacksmith analogy made to describe the Hierogrammates' \nshaping of humanity (below). I think it may be apt in describing how Wolfe's view of good and \nevil doesn't follow the traditional Christian definitions. Humanity, as the hot piece of metal \nbeing pounded, might define the solid, cool foundation of the anvil as being \"good\" and the \ncrushing, painful blows of the hammer to be \"evil\". But the blacksmith would not and could not \nview the process this way. How could He accomplish His shaping by seeking always to elevate the \nanvil and eliminate the hammer? \n \nBrings to mind the questions of why God created Lucifer et al. to fall and created Adam and Eve \nto fail. Also that recently found Lost Gospel of Judas, which suggests Jesus and Judas secretly \nplanned the Judas betrayal all along to accomplish their spiritual goals." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However it may be, they shape us now as they themselves were shaped; it is at once their repayment \nand their revenge. The Hierodules they have found too, and formed more quickly, to serve them in \nthis universe. On their instructions, the Hierodules construct such ships as the one that bore me \nfrom the jungle to the sea, so that aquastors like Malrubius and Triskele may serve them also. With \nthese tongs, we are held in the forge." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The hammer they wield is their ability to draw their servants back, down the corridors of time, and \nto send them hurtling forward to the future. (This power is in essence the same as that which \npermitted them to evade the death of their universe to enter the corridors of time is to leave the \nuniverse.) On Urth at least, their anvil is the necessity of life: our need in this age to fight \nagainst an ever-more-hostile world with the resources of the depleted continents. Because it is as \ncruel as the means by which they themselves were shaped, there is a conservation of justice; but when \nthe New Sun appears, it will be a signal that at least the earliest operations of the shaping are \ncomplete." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<40AAB05F-ACD8-4C7B-AC96-02198ECF544E@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-11-12T18:48:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typee, incidentally", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 12, 2010, at 10:38 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: This solution, that missionary work is \"just and holy\" but missionaries \nare \"earthly\" and \"productive of evil,\" is so reminiscent of one \"solution\" to the puzzle \npresented by the Hierodules, Vodalus, and the actions of the undines toward Severian---that \neven evil forces do the work of the Increate---that I think they must be related. In fact, the \nHeirodules on Urth from the perspective of a citizen of the Commonwealth must resemble an \nislander's view of missionaries, given the same level of knowledge and grasp of history." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At the end of CotA there is an elaborate blacksmith analogy made to describe the Hierogrammates' \nshaping of humanity (below). I think it may be apt in describing how Wolfe's view of good and \nevil doesn't follow the traditional Christian definitions. Humanity, as the hot piece of metal \nbeing pounded, might define the solid, cool foundation of the anvil as being \"good\" and the \ncrushing, painful blows of the hammer to be \"evil\". But the blacksmith would not and could not \nview the process this way. How could He accomplish His shaping by seeking always to elevate the \nanvil and eliminate the hammer? \n\nBrings to mind the questions of why God created Lucifer et al. to fall and created Adam and Eve \nto fail. Also that recently found Lost Gospel of Judas, which suggests Jesus and Judas secretly \nplanned the Judas betrayal all along to accomplish their spiritual goals." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here lies one of the reasons why I'm always confused when people see Severian's ultimate act as a negative or satanic act. Did they miss the point entirely?\n\n\n\n_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CDD8E36.2070006@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-11-12T18:57:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typee, incidentally", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very nicely put.\n\nHowever, as far as I can tell this is a very Catholic view---God works \nin mysterious ways, etc. Wolfe only changes it by giving it a galactic \nscope and perhaps a greater emphasis.\n\nEveryone needs to read Boethius." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/12/2010 1:38 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nAt the end of CotA there is an elaborate blacksmith analogy made to describe the Hierogrammates'\nshaping of humanity (below). I think it may be apt in describing how Wolfe's view of good and\nevil doesn't follow the traditional Christian definitions. Humanity, as the hot piece of metal\nbeing pounded, might define the solid, cool foundation of the anvil as being \"good\" and the\ncrushing, painful blows of the hammer to be \"evil\". But the blacksmith would not and could not\nview the process this way. How could He accomplish His shaping by seeking always to elevate the\nanvil and eliminate the hammer?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-12T21:23:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typee, incidentally", "in_reply_to": "<4CDD8E36.2070006@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff-However, as far as I can tell this is a very Catholic view---God works \nin mysterious ways, etc. Wolfe only changes it by giving it a galactic scope and perhaps \na greater emphasis. Everyone needs to read Boethius." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI don't know for sure. I guess it does seem like Protestant sects have more of the rants\nagainst Satan and all that. But there is more tradition of demonology, angels and saints\nand such in Catholocism. That inherent polytheism might make it a better fit among the less \neducated, less developed populations of the world than the simple dualistic Protestant sects?\n \nSeems like maybe the Catholic Church is hierarchical. The peons are comfortable with their\nfolk sense of good and evil but rely on \"mysterious ways\" or \"there's a reason for everything\"\nhomilies when the real world doesn't cooperate. The more educated, higher-ups in the church seem \nmore willing (among themselves) to acknowledge the purpose of evil. Maybe some even decide that\nthey themselves are wise enough to partake in evil to do God's Will (or have I been watching too \nmany Dan Brown movies? ;- ) )\n\nI hadn't heard of Boethius (surely I am more like \"everyone\" in this?). But before I looked\nhim up I had a suspicion he might fall into what might be called \"gnostic\" philosophical \ntradition that I am currently trying (with difficulty) to comprehend to further my understanding\nof BotNS. Not sure, but I think my suspicion was right about the B dude.\n \nAnyway, it may be that part of Wolfe's philosophy that polytheistic religions allow for a more\ncomplex and nuanced understanding of good and evil than these simple monotheistic religions which \ncurrently dominate the earth. I'm starting to see this principle across the whole Sun series. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CDDD50F.8010700@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-11-13T00:00:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typee, incidentally", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You may be right that Wolfe sees polytheism as naturally more tolerant \nof complexity than monotheism, and maybe even Catholicism more so than \nProtestantism---Protestantism is certainly more rigidly dualistic as \nwell. I am not sure about esoteric vs exoteric beliefs within Catholicism.\n\nBoethius is responsible for much of the habits of medieval Christian \nthought. One of his ideas is the wheel of fate; another is that of a \nPlatonic higher power, divine Providence. I suppose there might be a \nwhiff of secret knowledge there along with the ancient Greek ideas, but \nBoethius was not a Gnostic.\n\nI mention him because he tried to reconcile the horrible things that God \ndid or allowed or knew about in advance but did not prevent, with God's \nlove for all men. This is a basic problem that the earlier church did \nnot have so much trouble with because everyone knew the world was not \ninherently wicked but it was generally controlled by \"Caesar,\" who did \nnot know God. Boethius wrote the Consolation of Philosophy while in \nprison for treason he was innocent of, and was eventually executed, so \nevil was a stark reality for him. But Theodoric was Christian.\n\nWhen the entire known world was Christian, including the emperors, then \nthey had a problem. The whole world became fundamentally wicked for \nmany, and eventually (within another thousand years) the focus of \nsalvation shifted from earth to the afterlife. Boethius's idea that a \nhigher power drew us on toward it, struggling through a lesser, fallen \nworld, became the general Christian belief through the Middle Ages. It \nis therefore fairly fundamental to Catholicism as we know it, as far as \nI can tell.\n\nYou should definitely stop watching Dan Brown movies! ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/12/2010 4:23 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff-However, as far as I can tell this is a very Catholic view---God works\nin mysterious ways, etc. Wolfe only changes it by giving it a galactic scope and perhaps\na greater emphasis. Everyone needs to read Boethius." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know for sure. I guess it does seem like Protestant sects have more of the rants\nagainst Satan and all that. But there is more tradition of demonology, angels and saints\nand such in Catholocism. That inherent polytheism might make it a better fit among the less\neducated, less developed populations of the world than the simple dualistic Protestant sects?\n\nSeems like maybe the Catholic Church is hierarchical. The peons are comfortable with their\nfolk sense of good and evil but rely on \"mysterious ways\" or \"there's a reason for everything\"\nhomilies when the real world doesn't cooperate. The more educated, higher-ups in the church seem\nmore willing (among themselves) to acknowledge the purpose of evil. Maybe some even decide that\nthey themselves are wise enough to partake in evil to do God's Will (or have I been watching too\nmany Dan Brown movies? ;- ) )\n\nI hadn't heard of Boethius (surely I am more like \"everyone\" in this?). But before I looked\nhim up I had a suspicion he might fall into what might be called \"gnostic\" philosophical\ntradition that I am currently trying (with difficulty) to comprehend to further my understanding\nof BotNS. Not sure, but I think my suspicion was right about the B dude.\n\nAnyway, it may be that part of Wolfe's philosophy that polytheistic religions allow for a more\ncomplex and nuanced understanding of good and evil than these simple monotheistic religions which\ncurrently dominate the earth. I'm starting to see this principle across the whole Sun series. \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<819FE4531DFC44AE89668B8BCC23ADB4@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-11-13T20:12:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typee, incidentally", "in_reply_to": "<4CDD7917.8040402@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"David Stockhoff\" \nIn other words, the Hierodules treat Urth like an island of savages, and \ntheir \"uplifting\" efforts are not too different from the \"missionary work\" \nthat corrupts and enslaves the islanders, in Melville's view. If this is \nnot immediately apparent, perhaps is it partly because we are not \naccustomed to seeing ourselves as the savages in a colonial situation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not convinced - the Commonwealth may be bad, but the country of the \nAscians would appear to be worse. If Urthlings are corrupted and enslaved \nby the Hierodules, it is more down to earlier actions i.e. the introduction \nof a black hole into the Sun. And the Ascians seem to be worse enslaved by \nthe undersea powers.\n\nOf course you can if you want wrap up the current business and the earlier \nchastising of Urth as a combination of missionary work and more direct \ncolonisation/subjugation. Or, if you like, the mission is the whole purpose \nof the colonisation - Urth is not the source of farmland, or spices, or \nslaves.\n\nI tend towards the view that the Hierodules are on the right side in the \nCosmic struggle; if they were merely human we could indeed be very \nsuspicious of their motives, but I do not think they are intended to be. Of \ncourse, that is just what one of theire dupes would be expected to think, \nbut still... as I noted before, we haven't seen anything at all to make us \nthink the other side is good.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CDF42C1.8030102@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-11-14T02:00:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typee, incidentally", "in_reply_to": "<819FE4531DFC44AE89668B8BCC23ADB4@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/13/2010 2:12 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nI tend towards the view that the Hierodules are on the right side in the\nCosmic struggle; if they were merely human we could indeed be very\nsuspicious of their motives, but I do not think they are intended to be.\nOf course, that is just what one of theire dupes would be expected to\nthink, but still... as I noted before, we haven't seen anything at all\nto make us think the other side is good." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wouldn't say it is quite that one-sided; Juturna claims to be \nmotivated by love, both personal and on behalf of Abaia and his minions \nin general. Her acts of assistance and succor outnumber those of menace. \nIt may be an alien love whose details we find revolting, though it \nmanages to serve the Increate's plan. Sev's discourse just before her \nappearance in the throne room suggests each party to the plot does good \nand evil and each has some of the truth, making the \"sides\" more of a \ncontinuum.\n\nI wonder if Juturna's green hair is also a couched reference to Asimov's \n\"Green Pacthes\"/\"Misbegotten Missionary\"?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CDF5CF9.7040604@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-11-14T03:52:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typee, incidentally", "in_reply_to": "<819FE4531DFC44AE89668B8BCC23ADB4@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry\n\nI don't entirely follow, perhaps because I abandoned the \nHierodules-as-actual-angels idea long ago.\n\nUrth is obviously far from innocent (and so were the Marquesans and \nHawaiians), but your distinction between Hierodules and those undersea \npowers isn't critical to my point, which was to suggest a resemblance to \n(and potential literary precedent for) Wolfe's moral problem in \nMelville's in Typee. I don't propose a one-to-one correspondence. It's \nmore complex than that.\n\nTo clarify: if the actions of evil powers do the work of the Increate \n(and this principle is stated everywhere in TBotNS), then the \nenslavement of Ascians does the work of the Increate even though the \nHierodules, who believe they are doing the work of the Increate, do not \nthemselves enslave. Maybe this principle needs a name so it doesn't \nrequire constant restating!\n\nThis is not to suggest a moral equivalence between Hierodules and Abaia, \nof course. But I do agree that the colonial relationship is almost \nentirely \"missionary\" in nature, not imperial. On the Hierodules' side \nat least, not necessarily Abaia's---but perhaps for Abaia as well.\n\n(Who knows? How can you tell when aliens are truly evil? Obviously \nkilling and enslaving humans is not really enough evidence, because we \nhumans do that all the time.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/13/2010 3:12 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"David Stockhoff\" \nIn other words, the Hierodules treat Urth like an island of savages, \nand their \"uplifting\" efforts are not too different from the \n\"missionary work\" that corrupts and enslaves the islanders, in \nMelville's view. If this is not immediately apparent, perhaps is it \npartly because we are not accustomed to seeing ourselves as the \nsavages in a colonial situation.\n\nI'm not convinced - the Commonwealth may be bad, but the country of \nthe Ascians would appear to be worse. If Urthlings are corrupted and \nenslaved by the Hierodules, it is more down to earlier actions i.e. \nthe introduction of a black hole into the Sun. And the Ascians seem to \nbe worse enslaved by the undersea powers.\n\nOf course you can if you want wrap up the current business and the \nearlier chastising of Urth as a combination of missionary work and \nmore direct colonisation/subjugation. Or, if you like, the mission is \nthe whole purpose of the colonisation - Urth is not the source of \nfarmland, or spices, or slaves.\n\nI tend towards the view that the Hierodules are on the right side in \nthe Cosmic struggle; if they were merely human we could indeed be very \nsuspicious of their motives, but I do not think they are intended to \nbe. Of course, that is just what one of theire dupes would be \nexpected to think, but still... as I noted before, we haven't seen \nanything at all to make us think the other side is good.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CDF5D35.1000608@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-11-14T03:53:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typee, incidentally", "in_reply_to": "<4CDF42C1.8030102@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Never read that---can you describe it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/13/2010 9:00 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 11/13/2010 2:12 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I tend towards the view that the Hierodules are on the right side in the\nCosmic struggle; if they were merely human we could indeed be very\nsuspicious of their motives, but I do not think they are intended to be.\nOf course, that is just what one of theire dupes would be expected to\nthink, but still... as I noted before, we haven't seen anything at all\nto make us think the other side is good." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wouldn't say it is quite that one-sided; Juturna claims to be \nmotivated by love, both personal and on behalf of Abaia and his \nminions in general. Her acts of assistance and succor outnumber those \nof menace. It may be an alien love whose details we find revolting, \nthough it manages to serve the Increate's plan. Sev's discourse just \nbefore her appearance in the throne room suggests each party to the \nplot does good and evil and each has some of the truth, making the \n\"sides\" more of a continuum.\n\nI wonder if Juturna's green hair is also a couched reference to \nAsimov's \"Green Pacthes\"/\"Misbegotten Missionary\"?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CDF690C.9000208@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-11-14T04:43:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typee, incidentally", "in_reply_to": "<4CDF5D35.1000608@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/13/2010 9:53 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nNever read that---can you describe it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Patches\n\nA new planet features a super-organism whose individual bodies all use \npatches of green fur to see, even the germs. In short order, the colony \nlivestock begins to parthenogenically produce young, also with green \nfur instead of eyes. When the women colonists all turn up pregnant, the \ncolony ship captain sends a warning back to earth before \nself-destructing the engines to sterilize the colony site. A research \nmission follows." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CDFE63B.7090109@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-11-14T13:38:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typee, incidentally", "in_reply_to": "<4CDF690C.9000208@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sounds plausible. There are lots of available \"green\" references, I'm sure.\n\nI recall an Andre Norton (I think) novel in which all life on a planet \nis plants, including the \"animals.\" There's Brian Aldiss's Hothouse, \ntoo, but the other came first." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/13/2010 11:43 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 11/13/2010 9:53 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Never read that---can you describe it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Patches\n\nA new planet features a super-organism whose individual bodies all use \npatches of green fur to see, even the germs. In short order, the \ncolony livestock begins to parthenogenically produce young, also with \ngreen fur instead of eyes. When the women colonists all turn up \npregnant, the colony ship captain sends a warning back to earth before \nself-destructing the engines to sterilize the colony site. A research \nmission follows." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-14T17:08:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typee, incidentally", "in_reply_to": "<4CDFE63B.7090109@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it is the Hierogrammates rather than the Hierodules who have\nthis rather high-handed attitude. The two actual Hierodules we see\nmost of, Barbatus and Famulimus, although they are in alliance with\nthe Hierogrammates, seem to be aware of their limitations. It is\nFamulimus who says something along of the lines of [you see life as a\nstruggle, but] 'have you not thought it might be something more?',\nwhich prompts Severian to seek reconciliation with Juturna." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CE029E2.10707@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-11-14T18:26:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typee, incidentally", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're right, thank you. Perhaps I should have said \"Hieros,\" covering both." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/14/2010 12:08 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nI think it is the Hierogrammates rather than the Hierodules who have\nthis rather high-handed attitude. The two actual Hierodules we see\nmost of, Barbatus and Famulimus, although they are in alliance with\nthe Hierogrammates, seem to be aware of their limitations. It is\nFamulimus who says something along of the lines of [you see life as a\nstruggle, but] 'have you not thought it might be something more?',\nwhich prompts Severian to seek reconciliation with Juturna.\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 101114-0, 11/14/2010\nTested on: 11/14/2010 12:08:39 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CE049A0.70700@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-11-14T20:42:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typee, incidentally", "in_reply_to": "<4CE029E2.10707@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/14/2010 12:26 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nYou're right, thank you. Perhaps I should have said \"Hieros,\" covering\nboth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ack! No, the Hieros are someone else entirely. I have coined the demonym \n\"Yesodis\" to indicate the non-human sapient races that inhabit Yesod, \nand this includes F, B, & O, Tzadkiel, and Alpheta." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CE059FD.5020205@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-11-14T21:51:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typee, incidentally", "in_reply_to": "<4CE049A0.70700@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even better." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/14/2010 3:42 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 11/14/2010 12:26 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You're right, thank you. Perhaps I should have said \"Hieros,\" covering\nboth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ack! No, the Hieros are someone else entirely. I have coined the \ndemonym \"Yesodis\" to indicate the non-human sapient races that inhabit \nYesod, and this includes F, B, & O, Tzadkiel, and Alpheta." } ] } ] }