{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5775", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5775, "subject": "Antipolaric brothers", "messages": 19, "voices": 7, "first": "2010-11-21T20:28:24+00:00", "last": "2010-11-28T18:27:01+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-21T20:28:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Antipolaric brothers", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've just finished reading BOTLS, which has given me a lot to think\nabout; I'll shortly be re-reading it, and will no doubt be bringing\nup various questions and thoughts that strike me. But while I was\nreading it I had general thought about the series.\n\nIn SOTT chapter 21, 'The Hut in the Jungle', Severian writes 'If it is\ntrue that each of us has an antipolaric brother somewhere, a bright\ntwin if we are dark, a dark twin if we are bright...' The immediate\napplication of this is rather odd - 'that hut was surely such a\nchangeling to one of our cells'. But I'm wondering if it might in some\nway illuminate a series about someone who has a mysterious origin, is\nchosen by [a] superhuman being[s] for a significant task, has a\ndeath/resurrection experience, becomes lame, becomes a ruler, etc. -\nbut is blond, and impossibly high-minded." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-22T12:50:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Antipolaric brothers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason: But I'm wondering if it might in some\nway illuminate a series about someone who has a mysterious origin, is\nchosen by [a] superhuman being[s] for a significant task, has a\ndeath/resurrection experience, becomes lame, becomes a ruler, etc. -\nbut is blond, and impossibly high-minded." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nInteresting you should bring this up now. I am finishing up RttW and at the \nend there is a mysterious character on Urth who is tall and blonde with icy eyes \nand a hawk-like nose. Plus there is a persistent character in the Sun series who\nmay be deduced as having blonde hair. (Typhon)\n\nStill trying to sort my thoughts out but I think perhaps Wolfe is addressing what \nI will call a \"gnostic\" concept which may have reached its culmination in Nietzche\nwho divided aspects of human experience into an Apollonian and Dionysian dichotomy.\nThere is a long and diverse preceding history of juxtaposing a rational, detached,\norderly sun god with a dark, intoxicating god who emphasizes chaotic personal \nexperience. More later. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CEAA18E.7020303@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-22T16:59:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Antipolaric brothers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2010 2:28 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nI've just finished reading BOTLS, which has given me a lot to think\nabout; I'll shortly be re-reading it, and will no doubt be bringing\nup various questions and thoughts that strike me. But while I was\nreading it I had general thought about the series.\n\nIn SOTT chapter 21, 'The Hut in the Jungle', Severian writes 'If it is\ntrue that each of us has an antipolaric brother somewhere, a bright\ntwin if we are dark, a dark twin if we are bright...' The immediate\napplication of this is rather odd - 'that hut was surely such a\nchangeling to one of our cells'. But I'm wondering if it might in some\nway illuminate a series about someone who has a mysterious origin, is\nchosen by [a] superhuman being[s] for a significant task, has a\ndeath/resurrection experience, becomes lame, becomes a ruler, etc. -\nbut is blond, and impossibly high-minded.\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-23T02:39:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Antipolaric brothers", "in_reply_to": "<4CEAA18E.7020303@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: There's something twinny about Silk and Auk that I've never quite been \nable to put my finger on. Thematically, they divide the deeds of \nHephaestus between them.... I don't know. But I _do_ think there is a meta-connection \nbetween Silk and Sev as well. I think the fact that Wolfe had the Rajan meet Severian \nand justifies it as necessary in the telling of the story implies that \nthis is so." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nJames I'm hoping you will explain what you mean about the deeds of Hephaestus and these\ntwo characters.\n \nI do like Andrew's dark/light twin comparison of Severian and Silk. Not sure Wolfe had\nSilk in mind when he first wrote about it. I think perhaps Silk's progenitor, Typhon is \na more likely subject. I think perhaps this is why the Silk-Pas connection was sort of kept\nunder wraps for most of the story.\n \nI am currently noticing that despite his apparent evil, Typhon is on both Urth and the Whorl, \nan organizer and builder, while Severian, in his crowning achievement is a destroyer. The \ngood/evil, creator/destroyer dichotomy is an issue I think is intrinsically addressed by \ngnosticism and I am still wrestling for some understanding there. Perhaps, slowly, it is coming.\n \nSomething recently occurred to me. Severian wasn't really in so much danger of being killed by \nTyphon. I think the episode parallels Severian's pounding of Eata. The purpose of the beating \nwas to establish dominance not to harm. Typhon's insistance on Severian taking stewardship of \nUrth resembles Severian's insistence that Eata be his second. Yet, despite being far more \novermatched than Eata, something in Severian will not accept lieutenant/second banana status. \n(perhaps this is why Roche was written as Drotte's second and not Severian).\n \n \nSince you mention Auk I'd like to mention the character of Pig. By name and by other clues we can \nassociate Pig with the goddess Phaea. But I think his blindness and his manner of speech connect \nhim to Tartaros and his human associate, Auk. I don't know if it relates to what you were saying,\nJames but I find a similarity in the relationship between Silk and Auk and Silkhorn and Pig. Still\nnot really sure what was going on with regard to Pig and Hyacinths's room. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CEB50D2.2010508@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-11-23T05:27:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Antipolaric brothers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/22/2010 6:50 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Andrew Mason: But I'm wondering if it might in some\nway illuminate a series about someone who has a mysterious origin, is\nchosen by [a] superhuman being[s] for a significant task, has a\ndeath/resurrection experience, becomes lame, becomes a ruler, etc. -\nbut is blond, and impossibly high-minded." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interesting you should bring this up now. I am finishing up RttW and at the\nend there is a mysterious character on Urth who is tall and blonde with icy eyes\nand a hawk-like nose." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dux Caesidius?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CEBD131.608@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-23T14:35:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Antipolaric brothers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman-\nJames I'm hoping you will explain what you mean about the deeds of Hephaestus and these\ntwo characters." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Somewhere I have them more carefully detailed. But Hesphaestus was \nconceived by Hera without the need of a mate. When he was born, he was \nso ugly and so his mother threw him off of Mt Olympus into the sea. But \nhe was rescued by the sea goddesses Thetis and Eurynome. They set him up \nin a workshop in an undersea cave where he made made marvelous works of \ncraftmanship. In his workshop, Hesph had mechanical women who operated \nas his assistants. One day Hera saw Thetis wearing a broach that Hesph \nhad made and demanded to know where she got it. She told her about Hesph \nand so he was brought back to Olympus (in a parade that was very \nreminiscent of Dionysus's coming to Olympus). So then one day, the \nOlympians overthrew Zeus and bound him to a chair. Thetis identified \nHera, Poseidon, and Athena as the ring-leaders but Robert Graves \nincluded Apollo. Then they began fighting over who would be the leader. \nThetis went down to Tartaros and released the Briareus, the hundred \narmed monster that Kronos and imprisoned there. With his speedy arms he \nwas able to untie Zeus before the others knew what had happened. Now \nback in power, Zeus turned his wrath against Hera. According to Graves \nagain, Hesphaestus came to the defense of his mother and so Zeus blasted \nhim with his lighting bolt, knocks him off the mountain (again) at which \npoint he was lamed. Then Zeus hanged Hera from Mt Olympus (the heavens) \nby a golden chain.\n\nSo Silk performs the deeds of Hesphaestus on Mt. Olympus and Auk \nperforms his deeds in his undersea cave.\nQuetzal says that the ring-leaders who \"killed\" Pas as Echidna, Scylla, \nMolpe, and Hierax and says \"there may have been others\".\nIn the caves of Lake Limna, Auk --armed with a keyword \"Thetis\" and \nChenille (recently possessed by the sea goddess Scylla)-- released the \nprisoners (hundred-handed Briarius) from the hellish Alambrera pits as \npart of the plan to resurrect Pas \n(http://urth.org/whorlmap/binding_zeus.htm). Also, at his side is the \nblack mechanic, Incus, whom I argue is actually Maytera Corn (ear of \ncorn) --a mechanical woman-- who will later assist him in his work of \nrepairing Sand.\n\nAs for Silk, well, for starters it helps to recognize that there are \nassociations between Hy and Silk's mom, but it is not necessary. During \ntheir conversation, Silk _defends_ Echidna's celibacy rule. Then Hy \njumps up on the bed with her azoth (both a lighting bolt and a golden \nchain). She fires her azoth at him, sending him tumbling out of the \nwindow where he is lamed. This event is a combination of Hesph being \ncast off of Mt Olympus by Hera and by Zeus.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-23T14:42:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Antipolaric brothers", "in_reply_to": "<4CEBD131.608@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Great mythological reference. I thought I knew Greek myths but I must have\nmissed this one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 9:35 AM, James Wynn wrote:\n\n Lee Berman-\nJames I'm hoping you will explain what you mean about the deeds of Hephaestus and these\ntwo characters.\n\n\nSomewhere I have them more carefully detailed. But Hesphaestus was\nconceived by Hera without the need of a mate. When he was born, he was so\nugly and so his mother threw him off of Mt Olympus into the sea. But he was\nrescued by the sea goddesses Thetis and Eurynome. They set him up in a\nworkshop in an undersea cave where he made made marvelous works of\ncraftmanship. In his workshop, Hesph had mechanical women who operated as\nhis assistants. One day Hera saw Thetis wearing a broach that Hesph had made\nand demanded to know where she got it. She told her about Hesph and so he\nwas brought back to Olympus (in a parade that was very reminiscent of\nDionysus's coming to Olympus). So then one day, the Olympians overthrew Zeus\nand bound him to a chair. Thetis identified Hera, Poseidon, and Athena as\nthe ring-leaders but Robert Graves included Apollo. Then they began fighting\nover who would be the leader. Thetis went down to Tartaros and released the\nBriareus, the hundred armed monster that Kronos and imprisoned there. With\nhis speedy arms he was able to untie Zeus before the others knew what had\nhappened. Now back in power, Zeus turned his wrath against Hera. According\nto Graves again, Hesphaestus came to the defense of his mother and so Zeus\nblasted him with his lighting bolt, knocks him off the mountain (again) at\nwhich point he was lamed. Then Zeus hanged Hera from Mt Olympus (the\nheavens) by a golden chain.\n\nSo Silk performs the deeds of Hesphaestus on Mt. Olympus and Auk performs\nhis deeds in his undersea cave.\nQuetzal says that the ring-leaders who \"killed\" Pas as Echidna, Scylla,\nMolpe, and Hierax and says \"there may have been others\".\nIn the caves of Lake Limna, Auk --armed with a keyword \"Thetis\" and\nChenille (recently possessed by the sea goddess Scylla)-- released the\nprisoners (hundred-handed Briarius) from the hellish Alambrera pits as\npart of the plan to resurrect Pas (\nhttp://urth.org/whorlmap/binding_zeus.htm). Also, at his side is the\nblack mechanic, Incus, whom I argue is actually Maytera Corn (ear of corn)\n--a mechanical woman-- who will later assist him in his work of repairing\nSand.\n\nAs for Silk, well, for starters it helps to recognize that there are\nassociations between Hy and Silk's mom, but it is not necessary. During\ntheir conversation, Silk _defends_ Echidna's celibacy rule. Then Hy jumps up\non the bed with her azoth (both a lighting bolt and a golden chain). She\nfires her azoth at him, sending him tumbling out of the window where he is\nlamed. This event is a combination of Hesph being cast off of Mt Olympus by\nHera and by Zeus.\n\nu+16b9\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-23T20:23:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Antipolaric brothers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n\nPlus there is a persistent character in the Sun series who" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "may be deduced as having blonde hair. (Typhon)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If I remember rightly, you have to have _Urth_ to deduce that, so as\n_Urth_ wasn't part of the original plan, I don't think it can be a\nreally central part of the symbolism - though no doubt it means\nsomething. I wouldn't suppose that hair colours have a signle meaning\nthat runs all the way through. For instance, Severian's father and\npaternal grandmother are blond, while his mother is dark - I suspect\nthis is just to help him work out his origins. But given the many\nparallels between Severian and Silk (I've just noticed another - both\nare wounded in the chest) I think it may be significant in their case.\n(On the other hand, both wear a dark robe.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is a long and diverse preceding history of juxtaposing a rational, detached,\norderly sun god with a dark, intoxicating god who emphasizes chaotic personal\nexperience. More later." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wonder - Severian is a solar figure, despite being dark in various\nways - hence his title of 'black sun', I suppose." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nThere's something twinny about Silk and Auk that I've never quite been\nable to put my finger on. Thematically, they divide the deeds of\nHephaestus between them. Narratively, Silk shrives Auk before the\n\"solving\" of Blood's House. Auk shrives Silk afterward. The very term\n\"solving\" as an activity is a parallel between them as Silk plays\ndetective and Auk is a thief." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I agree with this - so within _Long Sun_ Auk can be seen as a\ndark twin - and of course the god who chooses him is the dark god. .\n(It's actually quite striking how central his role in the story is -\nif someone other than Horn had written it, it might have come out as\n_The Book of Auk_.)\n\nBut a nitpick - doesn't Auk also shrive Silk before the 'solving'?\n(The idea that you can be absolved _before_ committing a sin is one of\nthe things that makes it clear this religion is a parody.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-23T22:49:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Antipolaric brothers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n\nI do like Andrew's dark/light twin comparison of Severian and Silk. Not sure Wolfe had\nSilk in mind when he first wrote about it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, as I understand it, _Long Sun_ wasn't planned at the time, and\nit was only while he was working on it that Wolfe came to see it as\nconnected with _New Sun_, so the Severian/Silk parallelism must have\nbeen something he thought up later. Does Severian have an antipolaric\nbrother within _New Sun_? I'm not sure (and I don't see Typhon as\nfitting the part, certainly not without the extra knowledge of him we\nget from _Long Sun_).\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 11/22/2010 6:50 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Interesting you should bring this up now. I am finishing up RttW and at the\nend there is a mysterious character on Urth who is tall and blonde with icy eyes\nand a hawk-like nose." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dux Caesidius?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are we ever told Caesidius' hair colour? (Not having read RTTW, I\ndon't know the significance of this passage; but it might help us work\nout possible connections between him and Severian.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CEC578D.1060809@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-11-24T00:08:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Antipolaric brothers", "in_reply_to": "<4CEBD131.608@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nice, James." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2010 9:35 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman-\nJames I'm hoping you will explain what you mean about the deeds of Hephaestus and these\ntwo characters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Somewhere I have them more carefully detailed. But Hesphaestus was \nconceived by Hera without the need of a mate. When he was born, he was \nso ugly and so his mother threw him off of Mt Olympus into the sea. \nBut he was rescued by the sea goddesses Thetis and Eurynome. They set \nhim up in a workshop in an undersea cave where he made made marvelous \nworks of craftmanship. In his workshop, Hesph had mechanical women who \noperated as his assistants. One day Hera saw Thetis wearing a broach \nthat Hesph had made and demanded to know where she got it. She told \nher about Hesph and so he was brought back to Olympus (in a parade \nthat was very reminiscent of Dionysus's coming to Olympus). So then \none day, the Olympians overthrew Zeus and bound him to a chair. Thetis \nidentified Hera, Poseidon, and Athena as the ring-leaders but Robert \nGraves included Apollo. Then they began fighting over who would be the \nleader. Thetis went down to Tartaros and released the Briareus, the \nhundred armed monster that Kronos and imprisoned there. With his \nspeedy arms he was able to untie Zeus before the others knew what had \nhappened. Now back in power, Zeus turned his wrath against Hera. \nAccording to Graves again, Hesphaestus came to the defense of his \nmother and so Zeus blasted him with his lighting bolt, knocks him off \nthe mountain (again) at which point he was lamed. Then Zeus hanged \nHera from Mt Olympus (the heavens) by a golden chain.\n\nSo Silk performs the deeds of Hesphaestus on Mt. Olympus and Auk \nperforms his deeds in his undersea cave.\nQuetzal says that the ring-leaders who \"killed\" Pas as Echidna, \nScylla, Molpe, and Hierax and says \"there may have been others\".\nIn the caves of Lake Limna, Auk --armed with a keyword \"Thetis\" and \nChenille (recently possessed by the sea goddess Scylla)-- released the \nprisoners (hundred-handed Briarius) from the hellish Alambrera pits as \npart of the plan to resurrect Pas \n(http://urth.org/whorlmap/binding_zeus.htm). Also, at his side is the \nblack mechanic, Incus, whom I argue is actually Maytera Corn (ear of \ncorn) --a mechanical woman-- who will later assist him in his work of \nrepairing Sand.\n\nAs for Silk, well, for starters it helps to recognize that there are \nassociations between Hy and Silk's mom, but it is not necessary. \nDuring their conversation, Silk _defends_ Echidna's celibacy rule. \nThen Hy jumps up on the bed with her azoth (both a lighting bolt and a \ngolden chain). She fires her azoth at him, sending him tumbling out of \nthe window where he is lamed. This event is a combination of Hesph \nbeing cast off of Mt Olympus by Hera and by Zeus.\n\nu+16b9\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-24T03:23:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Antipolaric brothers", "in_reply_to": "<4CEC578D.1060809@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason: Are we ever told Caesidius' hair colour?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSeverian remembers Dux Caesidius as being \"a fine commander\" with a \n\"hawk face\"\n \nEata remarks that Valeria may have married him because he looked like \nSeverian though handsomer and taller. I think that's all we get.\n \nHard to think of a blonde guy with icy eyes resembling Severian but\nit is possible. \n \nOn the other hand, the character at the end of RttW is steering a ship\nand while \"commander\" can be a general military term, it is foremost a\nnaval rank, I think.\n \nCyriaca gives the most detailed description of Severian's\nface but she doesn't mention his nose. I can imagine it being aquiline, as\nI tend to think Severian is patterned after a Greek hero.\n\n \nEither way a good catch by Jeff to connect the hawk-like features of these\ntwo. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-25T01:47:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Antipolaric brothers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote: >" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Andrew Mason: Are we ever told Caesidius' hair colour?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian remembers Dux Caesidius as being \"a fine commander\" with a\n\"hawk face\"\n\nEata remarks that Valeria may have married him because he looked like\nSeverian though handsomer and taller. I think that's all we get.\n\nHard to think of a blonde guy with icy eyes resembling Severian but\nit is possible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ouen had a noticeable resemblance to Severian while being blond, so I\nwouldn't rule it out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand, the character at the end of RttW is steering a ship\nand while \"commander\" can be a general military term, it is foremost a\nnaval rank, I think." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'Commander' is a naval rank, but if it's spelt with a small c i'm not\nsure that signifies. Was not the idea that Valeria entrusted the armed\nforces as a whole to him, letting him perform the military part of the\nAutarch's function? And indeed, is it clear that the Commonwealth has\na navy?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Cyriaca gives the most detailed description of Severian's\nface but she doesn't mention his nose. I can imagine it being aquiline, as\nI tend to think Severian is patterned after a Greek hero." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm guessing the statement that Caesidius had a hawk face and looked\nlike him is meant to be a clue." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CEEB184.4010800@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-11-25T18:57:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Antipolaric brothers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/23/2010 9:23 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Andrew Mason: Are we ever told Caesidius' hair colour?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian remembers Dux Caesidius as being \"a fine commander\" with a\n\"hawk face\"\n\nEata remarks that Valeria may have married him because he looked like\nSeverian though handsomer and taller. I think that's all we get.\n\nHard to think of a blonde guy with icy eyes resembling Severian but\nit is possible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or the light hair could be premature grey, I suppose." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand, the character at the end of RttW is steering a ship\nand while \"commander\" can be a general military term, it is foremost a\nnaval rank, I think.\n\nCyriaca gives the most detailed description of Severian's\nface but she doesn't mention his nose. I can imagine it being aquiline, as\nI tend to think Severian is patterned after a Greek hero." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At some point, Severian says he has a straight nose, but a straight nose \nis readily converted into a hooked or curved aquiline one through being \nbroken once or several times. This hook nose could parallel Sev's cheek \nscar, broken by a mighty blow that displaced the helmet that otherwise \nprotected a monied campaigner's head." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Either way a good catch by Jeff to connect the hawk-like features of these\ntwo. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-26T15:32:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Antipolaric brothers", "in_reply_to": "<4CEEB184.4010800@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On further consideration I am now more firmly sold on the conclusion that the blonde, \nhawk-nosed guy steering the ship at the end of RttW is meant to represent Typhon. It \njust doesn't seem right that a revelation in the grand finale of a 12 book series would \nbe as anti-climactic as Dux Caesidius.\n \nStill, I think Dux's resemblance to Severian, implying a shared aquiline nose\nis important. It reinforces the idea of Typhon and Severian resemble each other, as \nantipolaric brothers should. The Mandragora also reinforces this link.\n \nMy further consideration was inspired by reviewing a conversation Hoof and SilkHorn \nare having about making these Red Sun Whorl trips. Hoof is wondering why Pas would allow \nScylla to make the journey with them to the Red Sun Whorl. SilkHorn says that he would not, \nunless there was a way that Pas could also make the journey. The issue, like so many others\nin this series, is left unresolved, unexplained: so where is Pas?\n \nMaking this dream-journey to the Red Sun Whorl seems to reveal the true essence of a person\nor something like that. Scylla appears as a young woman (with snake-like arms). So, I think\nPas' true essence as a tall, hawk-nosed blonde guy is also revealed. I'm not sure if he is \nthere as the aspect of Pas found in Silkhorn or maybe he has possessed the inhumu who is \nwith them. But I think it is Typhon we are seeing.\n \nThe scene also invokes (for me) one of the most important scenes from 5HoC. It is a dream \nsequence in which Number Five's father is steering a ship, refusing to untie it from the dock\nuntil he can determine what is impeding the progress of the ship. It is meant to symbolize\nthe self-defeating nature of cloning and trying to micro-manage and overcontrol the world and \none's self/family.\n \nI think this dream scene was the germ of a continuing gnostic theme in Wolfe's work. In BotNS \nTyphon takes the role of light, over-controlling Creator while Severian is his antipolaric \nbrother, the dark, chaos-bringing Destroyer. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CEFE2BE.4070009@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-11-26T16:39:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Antipolaric brothers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/26/2010 9:32 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI think this dream scene was the germ of a continuing gnostic theme in Wolfe's work. In BotNS\nTyphon takes the role of light, over-controlling Creator while Severian is his antipolaric\nbrother, the dark, chaos-bringing Destroyer. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm pretty sure that Severian's destruction of Typhon shuld be seen to \nprevent an enormous amount of chaos; at the very least Typhon's return \nto the Commonwealth would mean a civil war, and if he won, a tyranny of \nhis whim would descend where no one could be secure in anything. T's \nmind-control power eliminates the need for him to treat even his most \npowerful allies well, leaving not even a show of mutuality to leaven his \ndominion once the oath has been sworn.\n\nIn this, Severian is the rightful executioner of the man who sought to \nusurp all authority, even the Increate's, and allows what pitiful \nremnant of law and order the Urthlings have managed to keep together to \nendure a little longer." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<277F8A87-77EC-40CD-97F0-7F86F6AEBA4F@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-11-26T17:09:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Antipolaric brothers", "in_reply_to": "<4CEFE2BE.4070009@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 26, 2010, at 8:39 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 11/26/2010 9:32 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think this dream scene was the germ of a continuing gnostic theme in Wolfe's work. In BotNS\nTyphon takes the role of light, over-controlling Creator while Severian is his antipolaric\nbrother, the dark, chaos-bringing Destroyer. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm pretty sure that Severian's destruction of Typhon shuld be seen to prevent an enormous amount of chaos; at the very least Typhon's return to the Commonwealth would mean a civil war, and if he won, a tyranny of his whim would descend where no one could be secure in anything. T's mind-control power eliminates the need for him to treat even his most powerful allies well, leaving not even a show of mutuality to leaven his dominion once the oath has been sworn.\n\nIn this, Severian is the rightful executioner of the man who sought to usurp all authority, even the Increate's, and allows what pitiful remnant of law and order the Urthlings have managed to keep together to endure a little longer.\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, thank you. I was digging Lee's post until that.\nSeverian is a star of light and life, not a dark chaotic force. Typhon is clearly the master of the failed state of humanity that Severian is destined to wash away. Typhon is the crown on the thousands of years of stagnant humanity. Destruction is only one side of Severian's coin. What he did was bring life. The destruction was already in place, in slow motion. He reanimate the sun and urth, he doesn't destroy them. If he failed, they would self destruct.\n\nFor myself, the antipolaric brother comment mostly serves to focus on the Hut in the Jungle as an opposite to an Oubliette cell. It is hard to see much significance in that scene until that line. Now we have some context for it. In the cell there is no true light, and no hope. In the hut in the Jungle, we've got light and hope, and an interesting culture clash where both sides are not hearing each other talk about the same sort of thing. The missionaries are preaching New Testament and Insangoma is preaching New Sun. It's pretty funny actually.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-26T19:15:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Antipolaric brothers", "in_reply_to": "<277F8A87-77EC-40CD-97F0-7F86F6AEBA4F@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- I'm pretty sure that Severian's destruction of Typhon shuld be seen to \nprevent an enormous amount of chaos;" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWhen I spoke of Severian in the Destroyer role I was speaking in terms of his cosmic, \ndivine role in bringing the Flood which destroys Urth and allows the formation of Ushas.\nI consider his conflict with Typhon to be a personal one, though ultimately with divine\nimplications as we eventually learn from his eventual destiny." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son o'Witz- Severian is a star of light and life, not a dark chaotic force. Typhon is \nclearly the master of the failed state of humanity that Severian is destined to wash \naway. Typhon is the crown on the thousands of years of stagnant humanity. Destruction \nis only one side of Severian's coin. What he did was bring life. The destruction was \nalready in place, in slow motion. He reanimate the sun and urth, he doesn't destroy them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nSon o', I think you are drifting in the direction that I, and maybe Gene Wolfe, are \ngetting at with references to gnostic thought. I am not an expert in this stuff, though \nI've been trying to absorb as much as I can about it lately. I would welcome any \ncontributions or suggestions from those who are more knowledgeable than me.\n \nIn Jeff Wilson's response I get a sense of a worldview of someone with a lifetime of \nimmersion in Judeo-Christian religion/philosophy/culture. Almost all of us here share in\nthat culture. All our lives we have been consciously and unconsciously conditioned to think \nof light and creation as inherently Good and dark and destruction as inherently Bad. The God \nof the Old Testament is a bringer of light and the Creator of everything and thus He is the \nultimate in goodness.\n \nWe know that not all the world nor history embraces the Judeo-Christian view but, perhaps with \nsome exceptions, we here have not been immersed in an alternate worldview and can't help but \nalways be biased toward Judeo-Christian thinking. I used to think Gnosticism was just an archaic, \nalternative approach to Christianity..sorta connected to Kabbalah or whatever. Not very popular \nor important. I've recently learned otherwise.\n \nSome think Gnosticism got its origin in Alexander's empire, allowing a free flow of religious\nideas to flow and mix from the pantheon of the Greeks to the mysticism of India. It was\ncentral to the writings of Plato and still has a strong impact on our mainstream media. It's \ninfluence can be found from the goat god of the Celts to the Taoism of the Far East (no \ncoincidence that the Yin Yang symbol resembles the greek Ouroboros snake which eats its own \ntail). I think Wolfe chooses Persian Eschatology and Genesis names (like Meschia) because of\nthis region being the geographic and perhaps spiritual center of Gnosticism.\n \nCentral to the philosophy is that balance between light and dark, creation and destruction is \nneeded. One feeds off the other and if one becomes too strong, the whole system will collapse.\nI can remember being younger and learning about Hinduism with Creator Brahma, Destroyer Shiva \nand Preserver Vishnu and figuring this was good guys against bad guy and not quite understanding \nwhy their Hindu believers valued and worshipped them equally.\n \nFor a couple thousand years, Christianity and Gnosticism have been at odds, each demonizing the \nother. Even modern Gnostics (like Wiccans) consider that Christians have over-elevated an evil\ncreative, light-bringing demiurge as their god, one who enslaves with an authoritarian iron fist, \ndemanding work ethic, obedience, chastity, sobriety and other principles at odds with true human \nnature. The modern Gnostic groups prefer their nature-loving, fun-seeking dark Dionysian god(s).\n \n[FWIW- I think this is the religious underpinning of The Matrix movie series and why they cast\nan old white guy, with white hair and beard, dressed in white as the oppressive Creator/Architect \nof The Matrix and why they cast a black woman dressed in green as The Oracle/Satan who throws a \nchaotic monkey-wrench into the Architect's carefully calibrated machine.]\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF036E9.7020403@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-11-26T22:38:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Antipolaric brothers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/26/2010 1:15 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nIn Jeff Wilson's response I get a sense of a worldview of someone with a lifetime of\nimmersion in Judeo-Christian religion/philosophy/culture. Almost all of us here share in\nthat culture. All our lives we have been consciously and unconsciously conditioned to think\nof light and creation as inherently Good and dark and destruction as inherently Bad. The God\nof the Old Testament is a bringer of light and the Creator of everything and thus He is the\nultimate in goodness." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not subscribed to such a one-sided view as that; He is equally the \nultimate in evil and misfortune, since His sovereignty encompasses the \nuniverse and everything in it, but the lesser creatures within insist on \nprojecting their subjective values onto His works and misattributing \nthem to one another. Severian's destructive sure, but so is the eraser \ndestructive of writing, and the tide a destroyer of sand castles; \nSeverian's destructive mission is not a harbinger of chaos (usually) \nbut more like a broom that sweeps decrepit cobwebs away to leave the \nstage clean for the next act." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-28T18:27:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Antipolaric brothers", "in_reply_to": "<4CF036E9.7020403@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think I'd agree with SonofWitz that the idea, in its original\ncontext, is meant simply to point up the contrast between the jungle\nhut and a cell. It's a bit odd that a theory which seems in originin\nto be about people is applied instead to places; but if it is, as I\nwould suppose, a real theory which exists somewhere, this new\napplication of it may not be too surprising. So I don't see a need to\nlook for any antipolaric brothers within _New Sun_. I just think this\nidea might have later become an inspiration in the writing of _Long\nSun_. both in relation to Severian and Silk and to Silk and Auk.\n\nI'm very doubtful about any general contrast between creators and\ndestroyers; creating one thing generally involves destroying another.\nSeverian is both a creative and a destructive figure; and so, I think,\nis Typhon. I also think Typhon is definitely a chaotic figure. The old\nAutarch says that the first empire failed because the people of Urth\ncarried all their wars out into the universe and started new ones\nthere. The reason humans cannot yet return to the stars is the fear\nthat they will do the same again. So it would seem that Typhon's plans\nfor empire, if successful, would have led to something similar; and\nlooking at what happens on the Whorl, this seems to be right.\n\nThat, of course, leaves it a bit puzzling what 'bright' and 'dark' do\nmean. I certainly don't think they mean 'good' and 'evil'; neither\nSeverian nor Auk is evil. But intuitively, I think 'dark' does fit\nthem, while 'bright' fits Silk." } ] } ] }