{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5778", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5778, "subject": "Mucor and the devils", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2010-11-26T14:48:36+00:00", "last": "2010-12-01T05:54:15+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-26T14:48:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mucor and the devils", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason: Next, what are devils? The 'devils' about which Pike warned Silk are\nclearly inhumi. But as I understand it, inhumi were not present on the\nWhorl from the start, so what are the devils mentioned in the Chrasmologic writings?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I interpret them as fallen spirits of some sort. I don't think they \nnecessarily refer to any specific kind of being." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI don't see the need for being parsimonious and embracing ambiguity here. I think the \nclues are pointing to a specific answer- there were Inhumi on the Whorl from the \nbeginning, meaning there were Inhumi on Urth.\n \nSuch vampiric creatures are, of course, not on the forestage of the story in BotNS but\nI think there are hints of them in some sections related to Dorcas and Jolenta. There is\na hint of mystery in the discussion of blood bats (including that we see their results but \nwe never quite see them). And there is the vampiric Jahi in Dr. Talos' play.\n \nMoreover, the similarities between Inhumi and the Shadow Children from 5HoC suggest to \nme that these sort of creatures were on Wolfe's mind before and after writing BotNS and\nthus by inference, during.\n \nI certainly agree with Gerry that they may be seen as \"fallen spirits\". Without this in\nplace I find no purpose for Severian and his flushing of Urth. The Bible implies that \nthe Flood here on Earth was necessary because fallen angels/demons had come down and mated \nwith human women, creating a giant race of Nephilim and all manner of wickedness among humans.\nDr. Talos' play contains allusions to all this.\n \nI have found this view reinforced by some incidents in the Long Sun series. When inhumi are \nbrought to Urth and convert to true human form, they show some interest in finding out what \nit is like to eat our sort of food. But mostly they have an intense desire to copulate with \npeople as much as possible. (to the point that a human-inhumi war is instigated when one is \ndenied the opportunity to copulate). The theme of extremely large size as a pre-requisite to\n(false) godhood is found throughout the Sun series. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<272A8D02A5C649098AA5DF9CF63EE895@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-11-27T19:25:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mucor and the devils", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nT>>Andrew Mason: Next, what are devils? The 'devils' about which Pike warned \nSilk are" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "clearly inhumi. But as I understand it, inhumi were not present on the\nWhorl from the start, so what are the devils mentioned in the \nChrasmologic writings?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I interpret them as fallen spirits of some sort. I don't \nthink they\nnecessarily refer to any specific kind of being." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see the need for being parsimonious and embracing ambiguity here. \nI think the\nclues are pointing to a specific answer- there were Inhumi on the Whorl \nfrom the\nbeginning, meaning there were Inhumi on Urth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see any reason at all to suppose this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Such vampiric creatures are, of course, not on the forestage of the story \nin BotNS but\nI think there are hints of them in some sections related to Dorcas and \nJolenta. There is\na hint of mystery in the discussion of blood bats (including that we see \ntheir results but\nwe never quite see them). And there is the vampiric Jahi in Dr. Talos' \nplay." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Vampires are a staple of mythology, and there are multiple types. I suspect \nthe number of large-scale sf/fantasy works that contain some kind of vampire \nis probably greater than the number that do not.\n\nThere is even a real creature on Earth, the vampire bat. On Urth, the \nalzabo has vampiric aspects, and it is not related to the inhumi. The \ninhumi come from Green, at hot jungle planet, and would be uncomfortable on \nUrth. And they would have been discovered at some time. And how would they \nhave gotten there? Really, this seems to me a bizarre stretch!\n\nDevils are not vampires. They don't suck blood. They may I suppose \ndisguise themselves as people, but they are more commonly known for \npossession - which is also Mucor's best-known trick." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Moreover, the similarities between Inhumi and the Shadow Children from \n5HoC suggest to\nme that these sort of creatures were on Wolfe's mind before and after \nwriting BotNS and\nthus by inference, during." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What similarites? The Shadow Children are humans! And they don't suck \nblood or take the shapes of others. The aborigines take on human shape, but \nthey don't suck blood.\n\nThere *is* one curious resemblance between the peoples of 5HoC and BotSS \nthat I have noticed. In both cases, the two species working together \n(Shadow Children and aborigines in 5HoC, and humans and inhumi in BotSS) \ngain psychic powers that neither has separately, although the actual powers \ngained differ greatly between the two cases." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I certainly agree with Gerry that they may be seen as \"fallen spirits\". \nWithout this in\nplace I find no purpose for Severian and his flushing of Urth. The Bible \nimplies that\nthe Flood here on Earth was necessary because fallen angels/demons had \ncome down and mated\nwith human women, creating a giant race of Nephilim and all manner of \nwickedness among humans.\nDr. Talos' play contains allusions to all this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Come now - even if the flooding of Urth is essential rather than a \nregrettable side effect of curing the Sun, Urth has monsters and wickedness \nenough without the need to import inhumi!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have found this view reinforced by some incidents in the Long Sun \nseries. When inhumi are\nbrought to Urth and convert to true human form, they show some interest in \nfinding out what\nit is like to eat our sort of food. But mostly they have an intense desire \nto copulate with\npeople as much as possible. (to the point that a human-inhumi war is \ninstigated when one is\ndenied the opportunity to copulate). The theme of extremely large size as \na pre-requisite to\n(false) godhood is found throughout the Sun series." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't what you're saying about large size - the inhumi are smaller than \nhumans.\n\nComing back to Mucor, I was struck last night by an anomaly (fortunately, I \nwas not injured). Mucor sends out her spirit and possesses bodies, usually \nbut not always human. But she calls Quetzal \"the man who isn't there\", My \nfirst impression was that she could see (and supersede) spirits. But inhumi \nhave human-appearing spirits! Why do they not look normal to Mucor? \nPerhaps she sees bodies rather than spirits, and Quetzal lacks a human body. \nBut she still notices him. So Mucor must be able somehow to see body and \nspirit at once when on her travels.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF3FDBE.2040704@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-29T19:23:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mucor and the devils", "in_reply_to": "<272A8D02A5C649098AA5DF9CF63EE895@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn-\nVampires are a staple of mythology, and there are multiple types. I \nsuspect the number of large-scale sf/fantasy works that contain some \nkind of vampire is probably greater than the number that do not." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, in Wolfe's novels vampires are very, very common. Soldier of \nSidon, The Wizard Knight, and Long/Short Sun. Significantly, Typhonians \nwere a kind of vampire (see Montegue Summers), and they are signified by \nred hair (Rose, Chenille who dyes it red, and Silk whose beard is \nreddish blonde)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Coming back to Mucor, I was struck last night by an anomaly \n(fortunately, I was not injured). Mucor sends out her spirit and \npossesses bodies, usually but not always human. But she calls Quetzal \n\"the man who isn't there\", My first impression was that she could see \n(and supersede) spirits. But inhumi have human-appearing spirits! \nWhy do they not look normal to Mucor? Perhaps she sees bodies rather \nthan spirits, and Quetzal lacks a human body. But she still notices \nhim. So Mucor must be able somehow to see body and spirit at once \nwhen on her travels." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly. In Quetzal's case, she sees the man (spirit), but no human body.\nThe Man is not there. Only the animal is there.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF5E307.1040204@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-01T05:54:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mucor and the devils", "in_reply_to": "<272A8D02A5C649098AA5DF9CF63EE895@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/27/2010 1:25 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nDevils are not vampires. They don't suck blood. They may I suppose\ndisguise themselves as people, but they are more commonly known for\npossession - which is also Mucor's best-known trick." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's a continuum - plenty of fearsome spirits accept blood when \noffered and some seek it out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Moreover, the similarities between Inhumi and the Shadow Children from\n5HoC suggest to\nme that these sort of creatures were on Wolfe's mind before and after\nwriting BotNS and\nthus by inference, during." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What similarites? The Shadow Children are humans! And they don't suck\nblood or take the shapes of others. The aborigines take on human shape,\nbut they don't suck blood." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Shadow Children are fairly bitey. We don't know *what* is involved \nwith abo shape changing, if any, because IIRC there are no accounts of \nit being witnessed. \"Shape-shifed abos\" could just as easily be people \nsuffering impaired motor skills from brain lesions inflicted on them by \nsomething in the Shadow Children's saliva." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] } ] }