{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5780", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5780, "subject": "Urth Digest, Vol 75, Issue 24", "messages": 5, "voices": 4, "first": "2010-11-27T23:13:27+00:00", "last": "2010-11-29T19:06:41+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-27T23:13:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 75, Issue 24", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nI don't see the need for being parsimonious and embracing ambiguity here. I think the\nclues are pointing to a specific answer- there were Inhumi on the Whorl from the\nbeginning, meaning there were Inhumi on Urth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had thought Wolfe had said in an interview that the inhumi were late\narrivals on the Whorl. Having checked it, I think that strictly\nspeaking he only said that Quetzal was, which I suppose allows other\ninhumi to have been around earlier. (But does not _Short Sun_ contain\nan explanation of how they got on to the Whorl?)\n\nThere may, I suppose, have been inhumi on Urth which did not get on to\nthe Whorl. The fact they aren't apparent in _New Sun_ doesn't disprove\nthis; there are no doubt many things on Urth that Severian isn't aware\nof,\n\n But I agree with Gerry Quinn that what we are told of devils doesn't\nreally fit inhumi very closely. I would think one of two things more\nlikely. Perhaps devils are just figures of myth (as far as the\ncompliers knew, at least), mentioned in some of the historic texts\nused to make up the Chrasmologic writings. Or perhaps they are people\nlike Mucor. If she was geneticlly enhanced to produce her abilities,\nit seems likely that she was not the first person ever to have them -\nthere would heve been such people on Urth, though not on the Whorl\nuntil the special embryos started appearing on the market." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " The Bible implies that" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the Flood here on Earth was necessary because fallen angels/demons had come down and mated\nwith human women, creating a giant race of Nephilim and all manner of wickedness among humans.\nDr. Talos' play contains allusions to all this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe, however, reads the Nephilim differently; he explains this in\n'Castle of the Otter'. He thinks they were the children of human women\nwith non-rational hominid fathers (who, being non-rational, were\nincapable of sin and so could be called 'sons of God'). If anything in\nthe foreground story of _New Sun_ relates to this, I would think it's\nthe man-beast hybrids.\n\nI find it most improbable that inhumi can breed with humans. Perhaps\nsome aliens can (there's a passage in _Urth_ which illuminates this,\nthough somewhat obscurely). But inhumi are reptiles; the difference\nseems too great." } ] }, { "message_id": "<3419.88375.qm@web114718.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-11-28T02:14:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 75, Issue 24", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Andrew Mason " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nThe Bible implies that\nthe Flood here on Earth was necessary because fallen angels/demons had come \ndown and mated\nwith human women, creating a giant race of Nephilim and all manner of \nwickedness among humans.\nDr. Talos' play contains allusions to all this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This got me interested. In a bit of looking around, I found there's no \nagreement on this passage (Gen. 6:1-4): what the word \"Nephilim\" means; what the \nNephilim were, including whether they were literally gigantic; whether they were \nthe \"sons of God\" or the sons' children with \"the daughters of Adam/man\"; \nwhether they were notably good or evil; and whether this passage is related to \nthe story of Noah where it appears or is one of the many extraneous \ninterruptions found in Genesis. So I think, Lee, that \"the Bible implies\" may \nbe a bit strong, though if Wolfe can believe an unconventional interpretation of \nthe passage or make an original one, you can too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe, however, reads the Nephilim differently; he explains this in\n'Castle of the Otter'. He thinks they were the children of human women\nwith non-rational hominid fathers (who, being non-rational, were\nincapable of sin and so could be called 'sons of God')." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nThanks, I'd forgotten that (and most of the rest of _Castle of the Otter_). One \ninterpretation of the Nephilim is that they were descendants of Cain, which \nleads us through Beowulf and Michael Crichton to the Neandertals! (I hope I \ndidn't spoil anything for anyone.)\n\nAnother possibly amusing connection is that if Genesis 6:4 is part of the story \nof Noah, it appears to say that at least some of the Nephilim survived the flood \n(apparently stated explicitly in the apocryphal _Book of Jubilees_). Now who do \nwe know that can live under water?\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF1BF38.1070408@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-11-28T02:32:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 75, Issue 24", "in_reply_to": "<3419.88375.qm@web114718.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 28/11/10 02:14, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nAnother possibly amusing connection is that if Genesis 6:4 is part of the story\nof Noah, it appears to say that at least some of the Nephilim survived the flood\n(apparently stated explicitly in the apocryphal _Book of Jubilees_). Now who do\nwe know that can live under water?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Uh.... Severian? :)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF3F8E8.1010805@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-29T19:03:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 75, Issue 24", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason -\nI had thought Wolfe had said in an interview that the inhumi were late\narrivals on the Whorl. Having checked it, I think that strictly\nspeaking he only said that Quetzal was, which I suppose allows other\ninhumi to have been around earlier. (But does not _Short Sun_ contain\nan explanation of how they got on to the Whorl?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It would be very fitting indeed for inhumi or Neighbors to have had a \nhand in Typhon's decision to launch the Whorl.\nhttp://urth.org/whorlmap/midas.htm\n(There are a lot of arguable associations between Typhon to Midas and \nthe inhumi to Dionysus in the Long/Short cycle. )\n\nSince the Rajan can travel through Time --and since the Rajan can choose \nto go back in Time and insert himself into the grandmother's story \nbecause he recognized himself in it-- it is quite possible for the \nNeighbors to reach Urth through dream travel at a Time before the \nWhorl's launch and influence Typhon to launch it.\n\nI say, this is all POSSIBLE -- not stated in the story-- although it \ncould be seen as implied thematically." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I agree with Gerry Quinn that what we are told of devils doesn't\nreally fit inhumi very closely. I would think one of two things more\nlikely. Perhaps devils are just figures of myth (as far as the\ncompliers knew, at least), mentioned in some of the historic texts\nused to make up the Chrasmologic writings. Or perhaps they are people\nlike Mucor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A daemon, note the spelling, is merely a disembodied spirit. Inhumi \ncontain the spirits of others, living and dead. Mucor, at times, meets \nthis criteria. Also, an important theme is in the book is that if a \ndemon imitates a god, he becomes, in some sense, a god. Quetzal becomes \na holy man, sacrificing his life for his flock. Horn becomes Silk. \nInhumi become, in a metaphysical sense, Horn's son and Silk's sister.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF3F9C1.4060208@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-29T19:06:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 75, Issue 24", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason-\nI find it most improbable that inhumi can breed with humans. Perhaps\nsome aliens can (there's a passage in_Urth_ which illuminates this,\nthough somewhat obscurely). But inhumi are reptiles; the difference\nseems too great." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We know that Jahlee copulated with humans during soul travel. What would \nhave prevented a child from being born of such a union?\n\nu+16b9" } ] } ] }