{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5781", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5781, "subject": "god(s) and gods", "messages": 17, "voices": 8, "first": "2010-11-28T02:49:35+00:00", "last": "2010-12-01T01:08:33+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<4CF1C33F.9020801@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-11-28T02:49:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) god(s) and gods", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not at all sure what this means but anyway ...\n\nWhy is Typhon known as Pas on the Whorl?\n\n(btw, I am sure there was a thread regarding this question on the list \nfairly recently, but I'm darned if I can find anything on it in my \narchive, so apologies if this is a Previously Solved Problem.)\n\nThe noxious kind-of-canines which roam the Whorl's ventilation / \nheat-exchange system are known by the Whorl's chem soldiers (and also by \nVironese convicts consigned to the Pits) as gods, because they are the \nexact reverse of what one would normally expect a domesticated dog to be \n(ferocious instead of benign, unmanageable rather than obedient, and so \nforth). Silk is a little leery of this designation for obvious reasons, \nbut uses it none the less because there is no other name for them.\n\n'Pas' is Serbo-Croat for 'dog'. And Typhon/Pas is in most ways the exact \nreverse of what many would expect a father-god to be; he's a 'dog' \nrather than a 'god'.\n\nWould not be at all unlike GW to introduce this kind of bilingual pun \n... just because. It gets all of us scratching our heads, and is pretty \namusing once one has figured it out - yet it has no deeper significance \nat all, it's just Typhon (or rather GW through 'Typhon') having a laugh.\n\nAny views?\n\nJD" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-28T10:19:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) god(s) and gods", "in_reply_to": "<4CF1C33F.9020801@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think \"Pas\" is a corruption of \"Pan\", the Greek god of rustic places.\n\"Pan\" means everything, as in \"pandemic\" or \"pandemonium\". Scylla,\npossessing Chenille, explains about the gods being members of Pas' family on\nUrth and says \"with Daddy to be the god of everything--that's what his name\nmeant--and boss over everybody.\" (LotLS, ch. 11)\n\nPerhaps \"Pas\" is also meant to suggest the French \"pas\" (meaning \"not\") to\nindicate a negative quality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 9:49 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:\nNot at all sure what this means but anyway ...\n\nWhy is Typhon known as Pas on the Whorl?\n\n(btw, I am sure there was a thread regarding this question on the list\n fairly recently, but I'm darned if I can find anything on it in my archive,\nso apologies if this is a Previously Solved Problem.)\n\nThe noxious kind-of-canines which roam the Whorl's ventilation /\nheat-exchange system are known by the Whorl's chem soldiers (and also by\nVironese convicts consigned to the Pits) as gods, because they are the exact\nreverse of what one would normally expect a domesticated dog to be\n(ferocious instead of benign, unmanageable rather than obedient, and so\nforth). Silk is a little leery of this designation for obvious reasons, but\nuses it none the less because there is no other name for them.\n\n'Pas' is Serbo-Croat for 'dog'. And Typhon/Pas is in most ways the exact\nreverse of what many would expect a father-god to be; he's a 'dog' rather\nthan a 'god'.\n\nWould not be at all unlike GW to introduce this kind of bilingual pun ...\njust because. It gets all of us scratching our heads, and is pretty amusing\nonce one has figured it out - yet it has no deeper significance at all, it's\njust Typhon (or rather GW through 'Typhon') having a laugh.\n\nAny views?\n\nJD\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-28T18:04:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) god(s) and gods", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jack Smith wrote:\nI think \"Pas\" is a corruption of \"Pan\", the Greek god of rustic places.\n\"Pan\" means everything, as in \"pandemic\" or \"pandemonium\". ?Scylla,\npossessing Chenille, explains about the gods being members of Pas' family on\nUrth and says \"with Daddy to be the god of everything--that's what his name\nmeant--and boss over everybody.\" — (LotLS, ch. 11)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'Pas' is the masculine form of 'all'; 'pan' is the neuter form. I\nbelieve the name of Pan, the god, has a different origin (it certainly\ndeclines differently), but the interpretation of it as meaning 'all'\ngoes back a long way.\n\nI'm sure this is the central meaning of the name of Pas, but this does\nnot rule out its having other meanings as well." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-29T03:36:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) god(s) and gods", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ack, so many new threads. Had to pick one subject line to respond to all. \n*god(s) and gods* seemed most inclusive.\n \nWith regard to Inhumi on Urth, I guess I should clarify that I meant I think \nbeings corrupted by inhumi have populated Urth. By corrupted I mean had their \nconsciouness shared via blood feeding as we see in Short Sun. (Gerry the nature\nof Shadow Children has been discussed before; I think it is safe to say there is debate \non the issue. I tend to think they are not human but a first attempt to imitate humans \nby a predatory native spirit/creature. Abos are a more successful imitation, but with \nthat success they have mostly forgotten their true nature).\n \nI was just reading Borski. He thinks Blue is the home planet of Typhon (based in \npart on the muliplied body parts). I might agree. I think Blue is the home planet \nof the megatherians, based on the giant Mother creature there. I am guessing seeds \nof this giant being (or beings) made it to Urth in the form of pinched-off buds in \nhuman form (what else could fit in a spaceship?). Once on Urth they were able to \nstart the process of gaining great size and godhood, eventually necessitating their \noceanic abode. I think the end of RttW sort of demonstrates this as Typhon's daughter, \nthe girl, Cilinia/Scylla, goes out to meet her alter ego, \"Great Scylla\" in the ocean \nwho is in the process of budding off her own little army of undines. They are wearing \nblack robes which I think is a play on words- the Islamic black robe called an Abaya used \nto hint at great beast Abaia.\n \nInteresting debate on whether some Nephilim giants survived the flood by breathing \nunderwater or whether new ones were created after the Flood as we contintue to be\nplagued by fallen angels/demons. The example of Baldanders living under water seems \nrelevant. I assume it has been discussed somewhere in the history of this board that\npart of the legend of mermaids is that their kiss can convey the gift of underwater\nbreathing to drowned sailors. Surely Juturna's offer to Severian is related to this. We\ncan probably find significance in the fact that Severian was able (with Dorcas' help)\nto resist the offer while Baldanders, perhaps, did not. Anyway, I think Wolfe continues\nto use giants, be they nephilim, Nod, Baldanders or godlings, to convey the idea of \ntransitional (false) god-figures.\n \nThe origin of the name Pas is certainly a thorn in my side. The text hints that it is related\nto the god Pan, though I suspect Wolfe knows Pan's name has more of a connection to the word \n\"panic\" than the prefix for \"all\". Pan's name may have a connection to \"pastoral\" and that is\nthe source of the name of Pas. But I also note the connection between Typhon and his Persian \ncognate Pazuzu. \"Pas\" could be short for that nasty wind god/demon. But I think I'm alone in \nthat guess. Even James Wynn and his attraction to the wind aspect of Typhon doesn't share my \ninterest in Pazuzu here.\n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF3F413.8080709@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-29T18:42:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) god(s) and gods", "in_reply_to": "<4CF1C33F.9020801@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jane Delawney-\nNot at all sure what this means but anyway ...\n\nWhy is Typhon known as Pas on the Whorl? The noxious kind-of-canines \nwhich roam the Whorl's ventilation / heat-exchange system are known by \nthe Whorl's chem soldiers (and also by Vironese convicts consigned to \nthe Pits) as gods, because they are the exact reverse of what one \nwould normally expect a domesticated dog to be (ferocious instead of \nbenign, unmanageable rather than obedient, and so forth). Silk is a \nlittle leery of this designation for obvious reasons, but uses it none \nthe less because there is no other name for them. 'Pas' is Serbo-Croat \nfor 'dog'. And Typhon/Pas is in most ways the exact reverse of what \nmany would expect a father-god to be; he's a 'dog' rather than a \n'god'. Would not be at all unlike GW to introduce this kind of \nbilingual pun ... just because. It gets all of us scratching our \nheads, and is pretty amusing once one has figured it out - yet it has \nno deeper significance at all, it's just Typhon (or rather GW through \n'Typhon') having a laugh. Any views?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is not unlikely.\nI have elsewhere posited that the name of the city \"Viron\" is associated \nwith the word for werewolf, \"vironsusi\". Wolfe would have either come \nacross this term while researching the werewolves in Herodotus or became \ninterested in Herodotus for the same reason he would be researching \nforeign words related to \"wolf\".\nhttp://urth.org/whorlmap/viron\n\nFor the same reason, he be expected to look up foreign words, especially \nEuropean words, for \"dog\", since European grey wolves are the ancestors \nof all dogs.\n\nI like this reference a lot, Jane, since I have always thought there was \ntoo little to firm ground for Wolfe choice in this analogy. \"Pas = dog\" \nand \"god=dog\" provides an etymological reason that the dogs of the \nunderworld are reverse of the celestial Whorl gods (who are themselves \ndaemons/demons, because a daemon is a spirit and a programming function).\nhttp://urth.org/whorlmap/bufe.htm\n\nAnd additionally, of course, as we discussed before, \"pas\" is Koine \nGreek for \"all\", that is Pan, and Pan is the only god to die in \nhistorical time. Also, Zeus's died as well and his grave was honored in \nCrete. Layer upon layer.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF3FA6D.2060407@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-11-29T19:09:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) god(s) and gods", "in_reply_to": "<4CF3F413.8080709@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like the idea too. My only concern is that you can find words that \nmatch just about anything if you search them all. So, why \nSerbo-Croatian? Is there a strong pattern of (1) dog words (2) \"random\" \nlanguages?\n\nAs for the first, we can be sure there are strong patterns of both puns \nand wolf references. These are general in Wolfe, and although I'd rather \nsee a pattern that is specific to LS/SS, it's a strong start. For the \nsecond, I would answer myself, Why Melanesian? (as with Abaia)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2010 1:42 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jane Delawney-\nNot at all sure what this means but anyway ...\n\nWhy is Typhon known as Pas on the Whorl? The noxious kind-of-canines \nwhich roam the Whorl's ventilation / heat-exchange system are known \nby the Whorl's chem soldiers (and also by Vironese convicts consigned \nto the Pits) as gods, because they are the exact reverse of what one \nwould normally expect a domesticated dog to be (ferocious instead of \nbenign, unmanageable rather than obedient, and so forth). Silk is a \nlittle leery of this designation for obvious reasons, but uses it \nnone the less because there is no other name for them. 'Pas' is \nSerbo-Croat for 'dog'. And Typhon/Pas is in most ways the exact \nreverse of what many would expect a father-god to be; he's a 'dog' \nrather than a 'god'. Would not be at all unlike GW to introduce this \nkind of bilingual pun ... just because. It gets all of us scratching \nour heads, and is pretty amusing once one has figured it out - yet it \nhas no deeper significance at all, it's just Typhon (or rather GW \nthrough 'Typhon') having a laugh. Any views?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is not unlikely.\nI have elsewhere posited that the name of the city \"Viron\" is \nassociated with the word for werewolf, \"vironsusi\". Wolfe would have \neither come across this term while researching the werewolves in \nHerodotus or became interested in Herodotus for the same reason he \nwould be researching foreign words related to \"wolf\".\nhttp://urth.org/whorlmap/viron\n\nFor the same reason, he be expected to look up foreign words, \nespecially European words, for \"dog\", since European grey wolves are \nthe ancestors of all dogs.\n\nI like this reference a lot, Jane, since I have always thought there \nwas too little to firm ground for Wolfe choice in this analogy. \"Pas = \ndog\" and \"god=dog\" provides an etymological reason that the dogs of \nthe underworld are reverse of the celestial Whorl gods (who are \nthemselves daemons/demons, because a daemon is a spirit and a \nprogramming function).\nhttp://urth.org/whorlmap/bufe.htm\n\nAnd additionally, of course, as we discussed before, \"pas\" is Koine \nGreek for \"all\", that is Pan, and Pan is the only god to die in \nhistorical time. Also, Zeus's died as well and his grave was honored \nin Crete. Layer upon layer.\n\nu+16b9\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF402FB.2010207@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-29T19:46:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) god(s) and gods", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/28/2010 9:36 PM, wrote:\nLee Berman-\nThe origin of the name Pas is certainly a thorn in my side. The text hints that it is related\nto the god Pan, though I suspect Wolfe knows Pan's name has more of a connection to the word\n\"panic\" than the prefix for \"all\". Pan's name may have a connection to \"pastoral\" and that is\nthe source of the name of Pas. But I also note the connection between Typhon and his Persian\ncognate Pazuzu. \"Pas\" could be short for that nasty wind god/demon. But I think I'm alone in\nthat guess. Even James Wynn and his attraction to the wind aspect of Typhon doesn't share my\ninterest in Pazuzu here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I _do_ like the connection between Pas and Pazuzu. I mean, it works so \nsweetly as a connection between Pas and Typhon.\nBUT I find the connection between Pas and Pan so compelling that I find \nit hard to believe he would not have settled on that name even if the \nname were not at hand. The association with \"pas\" and \"dog\" seems likely \nto be compelling to Wolfe on many levels and adds depth to an analogy \nthat --to my mind-- needed it.\n\nON THE OTHER HAND, while Pazuzu nice, it's not as solid as I have come \nto expect Wolfe's puns. It's like associating \"inhuma\" with \"inhuman\". \nIt's is there, and it is convenient association. But it's not the \nprimary way Wolfe plays with words. So I don't think it could have been \nmore than an afterthought. It would not surprise me if Wolfe noted the \nassociation, though.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF4393C.3040300@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-29T23:37:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) god(s) and gods", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nBut I also note the connection between Typhon and his Persian cognate\nPazuzu. \"Pas\" could be short for that nasty wind god/demon. But I think\nI'm alone in that guess." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just because nobody commented on it doesn't mean nobody finds it\ninteresting/possible." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF43A31.70601@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-29T23:41:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) god(s) and gods", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jack Smith wrote:\nI think \"Pas\" is a corruption of \"Pan\", the Greek god of rustic places.\n\"Pan\" means everything, as in \"pandemic\" or \"pandemonium\". Scylla,\npossessing Chenille, explains about the gods being members of Pas'\nfamily on Urth and says \"with Daddy to be the god of everything--that's\nwhat his name meant--and boss over everybody.\" (LotLS, ch. 11)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A little too straightforward to be true, inn'it?\n\nTo this day I haven't found an explanation I like for Pas. At the same time, \nthe name makes an enormous amount of sense to me. I can't help thinking \nthere must be some obvious association we're missing completely." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF440AB.4080705@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-30T00:09:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) god(s) and gods", "in_reply_to": "<4CF43A31.70601@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2010 5:41 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nA little too straightforward to be true, inn'it?\nTo this day I haven't found an explanation I like for Pas. At the same \ntime, the name makes an enormous amount of sense to me. I can't help \nthinking there must be some obvious association we're missing completely. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I really don't understand why some people have a problem with Pan = Pas. \nI supposed it is because people have come to think of him as a minor \nwoodland deity dancing around with wooly pants and goat feet. It is true \nthat Zeus and the other Olympians superseded him in importance but at \none time he was a major major diety for the Arcadians.\n\n\"pas\" and \"pan\" are the same words. Pas the the masculine form.\nWhen the story opens, Pas is dead. Pan is significant as the only god \nwho has died in historical time, recorded by Plutarch as having died \nduring the reign of Tiberius. Christians viewed this as being \nsignificant since it heralded the coming of the crushing of the false \ngods with the true god who was crucified and resurrected during \nTiberius' reign. Pan also makes an appearance in Herodotus's book on \nthe Persian Wars, meeting a runner on his way to Athens. Wolfe mentions \nthis event in his introduction to Soldier of the Mist.\n\nAnd now, thanks to Jane Delawney we have an etymology that connects \n\"pas\" to dogs. And Wolfe, in my experience, if there is a potential \ndog/wolf reference, he will make it.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-11-30T03:31:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) god(s) and gods", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nWith regard to Inhumi on Urth, I guess I should clarify that I meant I \nthink\nbeings corrupted by inhumi have populated Urth. By corrupted I mean had \ntheir\nconsciouness shared via blood feeding as we see in Short Sun. (Gerry the \nnature\nof Shadow Children has been discussed before; I think it is safe to say \nthere is debate\non the issue. I tend to think they are not human but a first attempt to \nimitate humans\nby a predatory native spirit/creature. Abos are a more successful \nimitation, but with\nthat success they have mostly forgotten their true nature)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that's quite a stretch - the text pretty much spells out what the \nShadow Children are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interesting debate on whether some Nephilim giants survived the flood by \nbreathing\nunderwater or whether new ones were created after the Flood as we \ncontintue to be\nplagued by fallen angels/demons. The example of Baldanders living under \nwater seems\nrelevant. I assume it has been discussed somewhere in the history of this \nboard that\npart of the legend of mermaids is that their kiss can convey the gift of \nunderwater\nbreathing to drowned sailors. Surely Juturna's offer to Severian is \nrelated to this. We\ncan probably find significance in the fact that Severian was able (with \nDorcas' help)\nto resist the offer while Baldanders, perhaps, did not. Anyway, I think \nWolfe continues\nto use giants, be they nephilim, Nod, Baldanders or godlings, to convey \nthe idea of\ntransitional (false) god-figures." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not the most essential of points but: \"There were strange scars about his \nneck and ears\". Baldanders has already provided himself with gills in \npreparation for the time when, even with the aid of his anti-gravity belt, \nthe land can no longer carry him.\n\nLater he discards his belt and leaps into Lake Diuturna after the fight with \nSeverian, and thereafter is seen no longer on land.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-30T03:32:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) god(s) and gods", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: I really don't understand why some people have a problem with Pan = Pas. \nI supposed it is because people have come to think of him as a minor woodland deity \ndancing around with wooly pants and goat feet. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, that was my problem with it, on first reading. But if Pan is conflated with Dionysus\nand his thousands of years of gnostic global religious influence the problem disappears. I \ndon't find the Pas for Pazuzu shortening as implausible as you- for me that disguising nickname \nis reminiscent of Wolfe using Cas for Dorcas. But, in Dionysian light, I am quite willing to \ngrant Pazuzu second banana status.\n \nPas is dead at the beginning of Long Sun. And \"The Great God Pan Is Dead!\" is certainly an \nimportant heraldic cry in the history of Christianity. (Though my understanding is that the \nWiccans feel their Dionysian goat god, Green Man, Lord of the Vine, etc. came before the \nOlympians and outlasted them and will return to outlast the temporary ascension of the patriarchal, \nmonotheistic, Middle East religions.) I had long thought the Sun series was meant to depict a \nuniverse fumbling toward Christianity. Lately I have some doubts (but only some).\n \nJames your Quezal article is chock-full of interesting associations. For some reason, in the \ndescription of the inhuma bird and its horn-like head crest I was reminded of the godling who\nwears \"a peaked hat that was in fact a claw\". Well, maybe a connection. If not, I suppose we\nmust at least think of Severian a little." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hound asks about the reason Silk is sometimes referred to as Silver Silk and Silent Silk. My\nguess is that this is an allusion to a couple satyrs/fauns who are associated with the Dionysus\ncult, Silvanus and Silenus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think you are on to something here. I don't know what. But I smell game." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, about the same here. There seems to be some connection between Father Inire and Typhon/Pas\nand The Outsider. But it is hard to pin down. With the current exploration of gnostic religion \nI am trying to find a connecting role in regards to Dionysus and the Demiurge.\n \nWhere does Inire go after Severian leaves Urth? Where was Inire before Ymar? Did Typhon have a\nmystical vizier during his reign? (Ceryx perhaps?). Are vertical pupil goat eyes the reason\nFather Inire's various incarnations must keep their eyes hidden? The extreme female beautification\ntrend in The Commonwealth keeps me thinking of fallen angel Azazel as he was known for bringing that. \nHe was also goat-associated...\n \nWell, a bunch of puzzle pieces. But not quite fitting together yet. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-11-30T03:41:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) god(s) and gods", "in_reply_to": "<4CF43A31.70601@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Ant?nio Pedro Marques\" \nJack Smith wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think \"Pas\" is a corruption of \"Pan\", the Greek god of rustic places.\n\"Pan\" means everything, as in \"pandemic\" or \"pandemonium\". Scylla,\npossessing Chenille, explains about the gods being members of Pas'\nfamily on Urth and says \"with Daddy to be the god of everything--that's\nwhat his name meant--and boss over everybody.\" (LotLS, ch. 11)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A little too straightforward to be true, inn'it?\n\nTo this day I haven't found an explanation I like for Pas. At the same \ntime, the name makes an enormous amount of sense to me. I can't help \nthinking there must be some obvious association we're missing completely." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm okay with the Pan theory (but then I like simple theories). Wolfe \nallows that names will change over time: Allah is never written Ah Lah at \nthis time, but will be recalled under that name.\n\nMaybe Wolfe simply thought that 'Pan' has too many invalid connotations for \nmodern-day audiences - sure he is an important God, but we think of him as \nthe dancing guy with the flute. So he changed the name to something else \nthat sounds similar but does't have this direct link to Pan.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF4E756.4010907@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-30T12:00:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) god(s) and gods", "in_reply_to": "<4CF440AB.4080705@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (30-11-2010 00:09):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2010 5:41 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A little too straightforward to be true, inn'it?\nTo this day I haven't found an explanation I like for Pas. At the same\ntime, the name makes an enormous amount of sense to me. I can't help\nthinking there must be some obvious association we're missing completely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I really don't understand why some people have a problem with Pan = Pas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I've said, I find it too simple. Gerry find it good on those grounds, I \ndon't. I feel everyone's overlooking something. Which may be brutally simple \nas well - but only once you think of it, which nobody has.\n\nWhich is not to say that Pan isn't an association - and afaict especially on \nsexual grounds -, the more since the text itself almost spells it out. But I \nfeel that's deceptive." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF501B9.9080607@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-11-30T13:52:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) god(s) and gods", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have wondered if the mere fact that Inire does not appear to be \nassociated with any known factions (except the Autarchy itself, his \ncreation [?]) suggests that his most likely association is with the \nIncreate/Outsider---whatever the mechanism for that association." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/29/2010 10:32 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nJames Wynn: I really don't understand why some people have a problem with Pan = Pas.\nI supposed it is because people have come to think of him as a minor woodland deity\ndancing around with wooly pants and goat feet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, that was my problem with it, on first reading. But if Pan is conflated with Dionysus\nand his thousands of years of gnostic global religious influence the problem disappears. I\ndon't find the Pas for Pazuzu shortening as implausible as you- for me that disguising nickname\nis reminiscent of Wolfe using Cas for Dorcas. But, in Dionysian light, I am quite willing to\ngrant Pazuzu second banana status.\n\nPas is dead at the beginning of Long Sun. And \"The Great God Pan Is Dead!\" is certainly an\nimportant heraldic cry in the history of Christianity. (Though my understanding is that the\nWiccans feel their Dionysian goat god, Green Man, Lord of the Vine, etc. came before the\nOlympians and outlasted them and will return to outlast the temporary ascension of the patriarchal,\nmonotheistic, Middle East religions.) I had long thought the Sun series was meant to depict a\nuniverse fumbling toward Christianity. Lately I have some doubts (but only some).\n\nJames your Quezal article is chock-full of interesting associations. For some reason, in the\ndescription of the inhuma bird and its horn-like head crest I was reminded of the godling who\nwears \"a peaked hat that was in fact a claw\". Well, maybe a connection. If not, I suppose we\nmust at least think of Severian a little." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hound asks about the reason Silk is sometimes referred to as Silver Silk and Silent Silk. My\nguess is that this is an allusion to a couple satyrs/fauns who are associated with the Dionysus\ncult, Silvanus and Silenus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think you are on to something here. I don't know what. But I smell game." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yeah, about the same here. There seems to be some connection between Father Inire and Typhon/Pas\nand The Outsider. But it is hard to pin down. With the current exploration of gnostic religion\nI am trying to find a connecting role in regards to Dionysus and the Demiurge.\n\nWhere does Inire go after Severian leaves Urth? Where was Inire before Ymar? Did Typhon have a\nmystical vizier during his reign? (Ceryx perhaps?). Are vertical pupil goat eyes the reason\nFather Inire's various incarnations must keep their eyes hidden? The extreme female beautification\ntrend in The Commonwealth keeps me thinking of fallen angel Azazel as he was known for bringing that.\nHe was also goat-associated...\n\nWell, a bunch of puzzle pieces. But not quite fitting together yet. \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-30T19:36:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) god(s) and gods", "in_reply_to": "<4CF501B9.9080607@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote: >" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was just reading Borski. He thinks Blue is the home planet of Typhon (based in\npart on the muliplied body parts). I might agree." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have heard of this theory, but it seems very hard to believe, given\nthat we know Typhon's doubled body part was artificial.\n\nI think Blue is the home planet" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "of the megatherians, based on the giant Mother creature there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is more plausible. But might not the monsters equally have come\nto both Urth and Blue from a third place?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF5A011.4090705@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-12-01T01:08:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) godling's claw (was: Re: god(s) and gods)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 30/11/10 03:32, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nJames your Quezal article is chock-full of interesting associations. For some reason, in the\ndescription of the inhuma bird and its horn-like head crest I was reminded of the godling who\nwears \"a peaked hat that was in fact a claw\". Well, maybe a connection. If not, I suppose we\nmust at least think of Severian a little.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the claw is actually on the godling's thumb? Silk/Horn sees the \naforementioned appendage whilst the godling is cradling him upon his/its \nhand and it's pretty clear from the description (with a caveat or two, \nsee below) that this claw is part of the hand not on the creature's head.\n\nHilariously (IMO) the front cover of the British paperback edition of \nRTTW depicts Silk/Horn cradled upon an oversized but very human hand \n(ie. with fingernails rather than claws) which belongs to a giant \nhumanoid ... with a very big claw attached to the top of his head!\n\nOK I can kind of understand how the illustrator got this so wrong - I \nhad to read the passage twice to reassure myself that actually, the \ngodling's claw is a thumbnail-analogue, not some daft looking turban \nsubstitute.\n\nNot sure whether any Severian reference is intended (though I suppose a \ngodling with claws - whether on hands or anywhere else - is somewhat \nsuggestive) - in BoTNS the only guys we see with *actual* claws, flagged \nup at the time as parodies of *the* Claw, are the jungle sorcerers.\n\njd" } ] } ] }