{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5784", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5784, "subject": "Dionysus", "messages": 183, "voices": 16, "first": "2010-11-29T04:20:03+00:00", "last": "2010-12-22T21:46:38+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-29T04:20:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks to James Wynn for the explanation of his connection of Hephaestus \nand the Silk story. I liked it and thought the \"Thetis\" aspect was the most\ncompelling. I was intrigued because I had once considered that Father Inire,\nbeing bent and creative, most resembled Hephaestus of the Greek pantheon. But\nhe doesn't seem important enough for Wolfe to base such an important character \non.\n \nHowever another Greek god, also succored by Thetis, might be important enough\n(James does mention this god and I wondered why..), that being Dionysus.\n \nThere is a disjointed but continued religious conversation between SilkHorn and \nHound in RttW. In it, Hound is basically told that the unnamed Outsider is the god\nof wine, son of Thyone, i.e. Dionysus. Some say that Dionysus while a minor Olympian\ngod son of Zeus, was actually a much older one of the original chaotic God reborn. \nThus the status of Dionysus in the Olympian pantheon is similar to the status of\nthe Outsider in the Whorlian pantheon. A minor old-timer but somehow too intrinsically\nimportant to leave off the list of gods.\n\nHound is told a confusing story suggesting that the Outsider is both father to and son\nof Pas. This also seems to parallel the relationship between Zeus and Dionysus.\n \nI think the recent advice of Stanislaus is important here. The worship of polytheistic \ngods must be understood in terms of groupings. And in this case, the worship of Dionysis/\nBacchus is quite intertwined with the worship of Pan/Faunus. I suspect we are all familiar\nwith the image of a bacchanalic orgy with drunken goatmen chasing nymphs around and the like.\nHound asks about the reason Silk is sometimes referred to as Silver Silk and Silent Silk. My\nguess is that this is an allusion to a couple satyrs/fauns who are associated with the Dionysus\ncult, Silvanus and Silenus.\n \nThere are a couple reasons I find Dionysus as an interesting unifying idea. One is a possible\nconnection to Father Inire. The name Inire could be inspired from an epithet or nickname of \nFaunus which is Inuus. Now if there had been a variety of goats appearing in Severian's story \nthe connection might be easy to make. Perhaps too easy? The various monkey references could be\nrelated to the fact that Inuus is an archaic monkey genus. Moreover I've found two of the \nspecies in this genus especially interesting: Inuus sylvanus (barbary ape) and Inuus silenus\n(lion monkey).\n \nAnother possible connection is that the festival that Dr Talos and his company perform at is\ncalled a \"thiasus\". This could refer to a festival honoring any greek/roman god but it is by\nfar most commonly used to refer to a festival to celebrate Dionysus. I think Wolfe has said\nthat Severian may be considered an aspect of The Outsider but somehow Father Inire seems to \nbe included in the connection in some way. (more later) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-29T13:06:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In conclusion, I think the presence of Dionysus' millenia-long worship does \nprovide a significant enough basis for a secret underpinning to understanding\nof the Sun series. More and more this seems to me like a gnostic universe that \nWolfe has created.\n \nI was struck by how Jeff Wilson's recent description of his beliefs was similar to the \ngnostic concept of The One, the deity who is the Lord of All Opposites. Paired light and \ndark, creation and destruction, masculine and feminine, etc. The more I read of gnosticism\nthe more I find its concepts peppered through the Sun Series: The Green Man, Ouroboros,\nThe Abraxas, Amphisboena, Quadraf(r)ons/Janus etc.\n \nIn a recent discussion of whether there was a Christ in the Sun universe, Andrew Mason \nnoted the mention of Alla as a name for The Outsider. I wonder if this is a sly way for\nWolfe to suggest that Islam is following a gnostic-style of worship of God. Andrew also \nnotes that there is a story which seems to be about Jesus. Andrew has only a minor quibble\nwith the description that the Jesus character was possessed by The Outsider as he did his\nthing. I'm thinking this deviant view of the Jesus-figure is meant by Wolfe to suggest this \nis not really our Jesus in the story but a gnostic version.\n \nPerhaps the final evidence of this view is found at the very end of BotNS. In the denouement,\nafter all the mechinations of an angelic race living in a Kabbalistic universe, after all the \ncosmic upheavals, we are not left with a monotheistic, savior-worshipping Christian planet. \nUshas has four gods, two light, two dark, two male, two female. A very gnostic finale, I think. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF3ACE3.4020105@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-11-29T13:38:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All good points, and I have no doubt that either Severian's universe or \nits mechanics or its \"worship\" of him, or all, are gnostic in pattern or \ndesign. But I don't see how anyone could twist Islam into gnosticism. \nThat would conflate opposites: there is nothing at all gnostic about Islam.\n\nHowever, I can see how gnosticism could be a type of paganism, in the \nsense that it is misdirected worship of the Increate. Possibly Wolfe \nconsiders Islam to be slightly off---perhaps unsurprisingly.\n\nFollowing that logic, we could interpret the four gods primarily not as \ngnostic pairs---though they are---but as gods. That is, as powers such \nas Thor and Odin who are real but not God. Gnosticism would be a belief \nthat the true God lies behind the earthly powers.\n\nAs, perhaps, God could be generally described at all times and in all \nuniverses." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2010 8:06 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nIn conclusion, I think the presence of Dionysus' millenia-long worship does\nprovide a significant enough basis for a secret underpinning to understanding\nof the Sun series. More and more this seems to me like a gnostic universe that\nWolfe has created.\n\nI was struck by how Jeff Wilson's recent description of his beliefs was similar to the\ngnostic concept of The One, the deity who is the Lord of All Opposites. Paired light and\ndark, creation and destruction, masculine and feminine, etc. The more I read of gnosticism\nthe more I find its concepts peppered through the Sun Series: The Green Man, Ouroboros,\nThe Abraxas, Amphisboena, Quadraf(r)ons/Janus etc.\n\nIn a recent discussion of whether there was a Christ in the Sun universe, Andrew Mason\nnoted the mention of Alla as a name for The Outsider. I wonder if this is a sly way for\nWolfe to suggest that Islam is following a gnostic-style of worship of God. Andrew also\nnotes that there is a story which seems to be about Jesus. Andrew has only a minor quibble\nwith the description that the Jesus character was possessed by The Outsider as he did his\nthing. I'm thinking this deviant view of the Jesus-figure is meant by Wolfe to suggest this\nis not really our Jesus in the story but a gnostic version.\n\nPerhaps the final evidence of this view is found at the very end of BotNS. In the denouement,\nafter all the mechinations of an angelic race living in a Kabbalistic universe, after all the\ncosmic upheavals, we are not left with a monotheistic, savior-worshipping Christian planet.\nUshas has four gods, two light, two dark, two male, two female. A very gnostic finale, I think. \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-29T15:26:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CF3ACE3.4020105@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks David. I acknowledge not being especially facile with religious\nphilosophy and I appreciate any and all help I can get." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff- But I don't see how anyone could twist Islam into gnosticism. \nThat would conflate opposites: there is nothing at all gnostic about Islam.\nHowever, I can see how gnosticism could be a type of paganism, in the \nsense that it is misdirected worship of the Increate. Possibly Wolfe \nconsiders Islam to be slightly off---perhaps unsurprisingly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, I have overused the adjective \"gnostic\" where I really am meaning \"false\".\nIslam, as currently praticed by most, seems to be a very monotheisitic religion\nthough (inevitably, given its geography) it seems to have a tradition of angels and\ndemons (djinn) in parallel to Judeo-Christianity.\n \nYes, wiccan and paganism are what I'd call European versions of gnosticism but I've\nfound elements of it in Middle East religions of Zoroastrianism, Sufi Islam, Druse, \nYazidi, ..there are probably others I haven't encountered. I don't know if I'm using \nthe right terminology. Hard to concisely discuss such a diverse \"religion\" which has \nnever been codified under the auspice of one central church, I guess." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Following that logic, we could interpret the four gods primarily not as \ngnostic pairs---though they are---but as gods. That is, as powers such \nas Thor and Odin who are real but not God. Gnosticism would be a belief \nthat the true God lies behind the earthly powers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHm. I have been deficient in mentioning the Norse mythology references in the Sun series.\nThey have been in mind but I've been trying to be brief rather than sprawling in my posts.\nI think Urth as the name of the Norn of the Past is important. And the half-blind, black \nbird Odin imagery we see in Silkhorn. And perhaps Fenrir as a wolfean inspiration for \nFr.Inire's name (without neglecting Faunus/Inuus, heh).\n \nI concur regarding the theme of human and superhuman powers (including Severian) being \nconfused with God/worshipped as gods. But I wonder what message Wolfe is sending with his \ngods of Ushas. Three of the four gods are not powers but quite ordinary people, two servants \nand a (possible) prostitute. (okay, maybe a khaibit is not quite ordinary but surely not a \n\"power\".) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF3CEBB.9030405@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-11-29T16:03:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, it all depends on what mythology arises from the four. The \nPersians and Egyptians all faced this dilemma: that of many legendary \npowers of whom only one is True. Which one? But even that One is not \nTrue, in the case of Severian, because he was born a mortal. (Not a \nproblem for the Greeks or, apparently, the Ushans---just a problem for \nthose of us who imagine God as a platonic ideal who has never been to \nEarth.)\n\nWas Apollo at least a true facet of God? The same for Odin? I think \nWolfe thinks so, because he has said he believes they are real---but \nthat doesn't necessarily mean they are false gods, i.e., demons of some \nkind. If they are facets or misperceptions of God, as even Abiaia may be \na reflection of the Increate, then it all works out.\n\nGnosticism is a logical result of the (Hindu) belief that the material \nworld hides the real world. It could be seen as deeply paranoid, or as \ncommon sense.\n\nOTOH, pagans believe that everything they see is a god. From a Christian \nperspective, this is only half true: for at least some of them, \neverything they see is God. (For others, everything they see is \nwickedness and not-God, which is where gnosticism sneaks in.) It's a \nmatter of opinion, then, as to which half is the more important one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/29/2010 10:26 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nThanks David. I acknowledge not being especially facile with religious\nphilosophy and I appreciate any and all help I can get." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff- But I don't see how anyone could twist Islam into gnosticism.\nThat would conflate opposites: there is nothing at all gnostic about Islam.\nHowever, I can see how gnosticism could be a type of paganism, in the\nsense that it is misdirected worship of the Increate. Possibly Wolfe\nconsiders Islam to be slightly off---perhaps unsurprisingly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, I have overused the adjective \"gnostic\" where I really am meaning \"false\".\nIslam, as currently praticed by most, seems to be a very monotheisitic religion\nthough (inevitably, given its geography) it seems to have a tradition of angels and\ndemons (djinn) in parallel to Judeo-Christianity.\n\nYes, wiccan and paganism are what I'd call European versions of gnosticism but I've\nfound elements of it in Middle East religions of Zoroastrianism, Sufi Islam, Druse,\nYazidi, ..there are probably others I haven't encountered. I don't know if I'm using\nthe right terminology. Hard to concisely discuss such a diverse \"religion\" which has\nnever been codified under the auspice of one central church, I guess." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Following that logic, we could interpret the four gods primarily not as\ngnostic pairs---though they are---but as gods. That is, as powers such\nas Thor and Odin who are real but not God. Gnosticism would be a belief\nthat the true God lies behind the earthly powers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hm. I have been deficient in mentioning the Norse mythology references in the Sun series.\nThey have been in mind but I've been trying to be brief rather than sprawling in my posts.\nI think Urth as the name of the Norn of the Past is important. And the half-blind, black\nbird Odin imagery we see in Silkhorn. And perhaps Fenrir as a wolfean inspiration for\nFr.Inire's name (without neglecting Faunus/Inuus, heh).\n\nI concur regarding the theme of human and superhuman powers (including Severian) being\nconfused with God/worshipped as gods. But I wonder what message Wolfe is sending with his\ngods of Ushas. Three of the four gods are not powers but quite ordinary people, two servants\nand a (possible) prostitute. (okay, maybe a khaibit is not quite ordinary but surely not a\n\"power\".) \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF403E5.6020905@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-29T19:49:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman-\nHowever another Greek god, also succored by Thetis, might be important enough (James does mention this god and I wondered why..), that being Dionysus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dionysus is an important god in Greek mythology but he is missing from \nthe Whorl pantheon. I argue that the name \"inhume\" is associated with \nthe Dionysus.\nhttp://urth.org/whorlmap/quetzal\nAlso, inhumi are associated with the vines on Blue somehow. And Dionysus \nis the god of the vine.\n\nOf course, _I_ argue that Quetzal carries the soul of Tussah and Tussah \nis cloned from Typhon.\n\nIncidentally, Thetis is my favorite Greek god. She's the Godfather of \nGreek mythology. She has a way of offering aid to powerful figures at \ncrucial moments. And then, at some point, she always seeks payment for \nthe favor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hound is told a confusing story suggesting that the Outsider is both father to and son\nof Pas. This also seems to parallel the relationship between Zeus and Dionysus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "FWIW I posit that Silk is the Fish or Frog (probably Fish). And the only \nway I can justify the implied associations between Silk and Pas is that \nFish was a clone of Typhon. I want Horn to be a clone of Typhon as well. \nBut I'm no longer sure I can argue that from the text.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF436C3.3080502@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-29T23:26:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman-\nHound asks about the reason Silk is sometimes referred to as Silver Silk and Silent Silk. My\nguess is that this is an allusion to a couple satyrs/fauns who are associated with the Dionysus\ncult, Silvanus and Silenus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this is an excellent and significant guess." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The name Inire could be inspired from an epithet or nickname of\nFaunus which is Inuus. [snip] The various monkey references could be\nrelated to the fact that Inuus is an archaic monkey genus. Moreover I've found two of the\nspecies in this genus especially interesting: Inuus sylvanus (barbary ape) and Inuus silenus\n(lion monkey)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you are on to something here. I don't know what. But I smell game.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF461C4.8010506@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-11-30T02:30:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wine god (was: Re: Dionysus)", "in_reply_to": "<4CF403E5.6020905@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 29/11/10 19:49, James Wynn wrote:\n\nDionysus is an important god in Greek mythology but he is missing from \nthe Whorl pantheon. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just a quick thought - this is true in terms of a being named Dionysus \nor similar, but there *is* a wine-god, isn't there? I'm sure there is a \npassage in vol. 3 of Long Sun where Silk meditates upon the nature of \nthe wine-god, who is reputed to be the son of Thyone (I think - sorry if \nthis isn't accurate, I don't have my books to hand right now), who is \nherself 'a very minor goddess ... a less favoured mistress of Typhon' (I \npresume this means less favoured than Kypris). However, there is a \ncurious suggestion that the wine-god may not after all be a bastard son \nof Typhon but in some sense the son of the Outsider. Which would \nprobably make this a Christian reference - Christ as wine-god - not as \nin god of drunken orgies of course, but God manifest in the wine of the \nEucharist.\n\nVery allusive indeed, but interesting IMO\n\njd." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-11-30T03:26:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CF436C3.3080502@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \nLee Berman-\nHound asks about the reason Silk is sometimes referred to as Silver Silk \nand Silent Silk. My\nguess is that this is an allusion to a couple satyrs/fauns who are \nassociated with the Dionysus\ncult, Silvanus and Silenus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think this is an excellent and significant guess." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Silk is hardly the most Dionysian of characters though, is he?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF48FD5.7000003@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-30T05:47:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jane Delawney-\nHowever, there is a curious suggestion that the wine-god may not after \nall be a bastard son of Typhon but in some sense the son of the \nOutsider. Which would probably make this a Christian reference - \nChrist as wine-god - not as in god of drunken orgies of course, but \nGod manifest in the wine of the Eucharist. Very allusive indeed, but \ninteresting IMO " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "C.S. Lewis, whose books Wolfe claims to have read in their entirety, \nmade a very impassioned argument in one of his books that D. was a being \nthat pointed to Christ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Lee Berman-\nMy guess is that this is an allusion to a couple satyrs/fauns\nwho are associated with the Dionysus cult, Silvanus and Silenus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn-\nI think this is an excellent and significant guess." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn-\nSilk is hardly the most Dionysian of characters though, is he?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It depends on what you mean by being a Dionysian. For C.S. Lewis, it was \na pre-Christian Christian. And, remember, I'm not saying Silk _is_ D., \neven thematically. He's a _follower_ of D. I've argued that the Book of \nthe Long Sun is mapped over Robert Graves' telling of the life of \nAristeaus. Aristeaus was inducted into the D. mysteries. In the Book of \nthe Long Sun, the role of D. is played by Quetzal.\n\nThe inhumi are like D. in that he is known as the Twice Born god. But \nthere is someone else who died and was reborn...Pas. As the Rajan put \nit, Pas was regrown from a seed.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-30T13:17:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CF48FD5.7000003@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: It depends on what you mean by being a Dionysian. For C.S. Lewis, it was \na pre-Christian Christian. And, remember, I'm not saying Silk _is_ D., even thematically. \nHe's a _follower_ of D. I've argued that the Book of the Long Sun is mapped over Robert Graves' \ntelling of the life of Aristeaus. Aristeaus was inducted into the D. mysteries. In the Book of \nthe Long Sun, the role of D. is played by Quetzal. The inhumi are like D. in that he is known \nas the Twice Born god. But there is someone else who died and was reborn...Pas. As the Rajan put \nit, Pas was regrown from a seed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAs other montsers were grown on Urth from black beans? I think the Robert Graves exploration is\na fruitful enterprise. I'm wondering about the goddess Fauna (Bona Dea) and her connection to the\nTown That Forgot Fauna.\n \nI think Neighbors and Inhumi may be seen as symbiotes, intertwined (much as Dionysus and Pan are?\nor trees and vines?). If Neighbors used the Inhumi to explore the humans on Whorl, perhaps they used \nthe same process to explore the rest of the universe, including Urth? They do seem a bit contrite as \nthey offer their planet, Blue, to Horn and humanity.\n \nSome interesting Pan anectdotes from Wikipedia:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pan could be multiplied into a swarm of Pans, and even be given individual names, as in Nonnius' \nDionysiaca, where the god Pan had twelve sons that helped Dionysus in his war against the Indians. \nTheir names were Kelaineus, Argennon, Aigikoros, Eugeneios, Omester, Daphoineus, Phobos, Philamnos, \nXanthos, Glaukos, Argos, and Phorbas. Two other Pans were Agreus and Nomios...., [who] could have \nbeen two different aspects of the prime Pan, reflecting his dual nature as both a wise prophet and \na lustful beast." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Aegipan, literally \"goat-Pan,\" was a Pan who was fully goatlike, rather than half-goat and half-man. \nWhen the Olympians fled from the monstrous giant Typhoeus [Typhon] and hid themselves in animal form, \nAegipan assumed the form of a fish-tailed goat. Later he came to the aid of Zeus in his battle with \nTyphoeus by stealing back Zeus' stolen sinews. As a reward the king of the gods placed him amongst the \nstars as the Constellation Capricorn." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI am thinking of when Horn first meets the Neighbors and is struck by the short, stiff hairs on the\narm of their leader. He is never quite able to count their heads or see their eyes.\n \nLoose associations of these concepts may be all we are expected to make by Wolfe. Getting a one-to-one\ncorrespondence between Sun series elements and earthly mythology is probably going to remain as \nelusive as trying to count Neighbors (or Shadow Children). But I'm still rather awestruck that after\ndecades, there still seems to be a lot of room left to explore.\n \n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-30T16:22:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CF48FD5.7000003@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 9:47 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nThe inhumi are like D. in that he is known as the Twice Born god. But there\nis someone else who died and was reborn...Pas. As the Rajan put it, Pas was\nregrown from a seed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "... or a bean?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF539F4.8020009@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-30T17:52:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman-\nI am thinking of when Horn first meets the Neighbors and is struck by the short, stiff hairs on the arm of their leader. He is never quite able to count their heads or see their eyes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Unfortunately, I am the source for this, but it turned out that the \nreading was based on a printing defect in my copy of On Blue's Waters. I \nstill think, based the meeting and other things --including the \nunderstanding the Horn is, thematically associated with Aristeaus' son, \nActaeon--that Horn broke his neck in that pit and died. Then the \ngreenbuck, a young Neighbor, feeling guilt over his death reanimated him \n(along with all his memories) and devoted himself to completing Horn's \nmission.\n\nAnd of course Aristaeus has a lot of overlaps with Dionysus--not limited \nto the facts that he was a disciple of the D mysteries AND A's daughter, \nMacris, nursed D on honey.\n\nIncidentally, the connection between Aristaeus and the Long/Short Sun \ncycle becomes more compelling the more one investigates it. For \nexample, I wrote the Aristaeus article \nhttp://urth.org/whorlmap/aristaeus and the Midas article (in which the \nHyperboreans play a major role) http://urth.org/whorlmap/midas \nseparately. It was only long afterward that I discovered that supposedly \nAristaeus is the original source of the story of the Hyperboreans \n--which is a pretty amazing coincidence if that's all it is. \nAdditionally, it is significant that I only discovered Aristaeus' \nconnection to Pindar (a major character in Soldier of the Mist) after I \nwas halfway through my simultaneous reading of the \"Long Sun\" and R. \nGraves' Aristaeus chapter." } ] }, { "message_id": "<00bc01cb9123$0844ca80$c7d24a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-12-01T06:43:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CF539F4.8020009@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I\nstill think, based the meeting and other things --including the\nunderstanding the Horn is, thematically associated with Aristeaus' son,\nActaeon--that Horn broke his neck in that pit and died. Then the\ngreenbuck, a young Neighbor, feeling guilt over his death reanimated him\n(along with all his memories) and devoted himself to completing Horn's\nmission." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How curious. A Neighbor lured Horn to his death, then took pity on him,\nmended his broken neck and brought his body back to life. Yet when wounded\nHorn was in fact dying in that lander on Green, and very much did not want\nto die, he called upon the Neighbors to help him in his agony and a Neighbor\ncame to him and said: \"I cannot make you well again [. . .]\" (IGJ, p-127)\nBut the Neighbor could and did send Horn's spirit into Silk's body. I\nsuppose the Neighbor could have lied about not being able to mend Horn's\nbody, but I very much doubt it.\n\nNot even mighty Tzadkiel, the Hierogrammate with dominion over the whole\ndamn galaxy, could bring a human body back to life. Of course, I suppose\nBarbatus could have been lying about that, too. (URTH, 359-60)\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF65AB8.1020803@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-01T14:24:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<00bc01cb9123$0844ca80$c7d24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote\nI\nstill think, based the meeting and other things [snip] that Horn broke\nhis neck in that pit and died. Then the greenbuck, a young Neighbor,\nfeeling guilt over his death reanimated him\n(along with all his memories) and devoted himself to completing Horn's\nmission." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy Lackey wrote:\nHow curious. A Neighbor lured Horn to his death, then took\npity on him,mended his broken neck and brought his body back to\nlife." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apparently, the Neighbor did not \"lure\" him to his death. That implies \nintent. At the end of RttW, the Rajan says:\n\n\"We will sail tonight. Would you be willing to make my farewells to Hoof \nand Hide? Nettle is making her own, and cannot be bothered with mine. \nI've been dreading it. In a sense, I have killed their father, though \nthe Outsider sure knows I that I never meant him the least _harm_. I \ndon't want to have to face his sons...\" [emphasis mine]\n\nI'm afraid I consider my interpretation of this statement to be worlds \nbetter than the common alternate one that the Rajan feels guilty for \naccepting that Horn died. 1)There is no sense of \"harm\" in that sort of \nkilling, 2) I cannot relate to that sort of moral sensitivity, and 3)I \nknow no precedence for it in the stories.\n\nThe Rajan (and by implication, the Neighbors as well) have a very \nlegalistic view on taking the lives of others. When telling Horn's son \nabout killing a bandit he says,\n?I spoke of killing a man with this. I hadn’t intended to kill him, but \nI was afraid he was going to kill us. I thought he might kill you or \nJahlee, and kept hitting him as hard as I could; when the fighting had \nended, I looked at him, and he was dead.\n?It wasn’t your fault, Father.\n?Of course it was, and his as well. It was it is my fault that I killed \nhim. It is his fault that I bear the guilt of killing him, because he \ngave me good reason to fear him.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yet when wounded\nHorn was in fact dying in that lander on Green, and very much did not want\nto die, he called upon the Neighbors to help him in his agony and a Neighbor\ncame to him and said: \"I cannot make you well again [. . .]\" (IGJ, p-127)\nBut the Neighbor could and did send Horn's spirit into Silk's body. I\nsuppose the Neighbor could have lied about not being able to mend Horn's\nbody, but I very much doubt it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "“Really” That the Neighbor lied is the only explanation? It can't be \nthat the process cannot be done twice? (\"I cannot make you well AGAIN\") \nAnyway, I think the slashes on the Silk's wrists and the Neighbor's \nstatement that she was sending Not Horn into a person \"whose own spirit \nis dying\" make it clear that Silk killed himself in front of Hyacinth's \ncasket. He was either dead or almost dead when the Neighbor's sent dying \nNot Horn to reanimate him.\n\nAlso, Seawrack and Babbie took a good look at Horn and were not the \nleast in doubt that he had died. They were still certain when he \nreturned to them alive. [I guess they could have lied about that, but I \nvery much doubt it.]\n\nSo it is obvious that they DO have the ability to heal and reanimate \nthat you find so incredulous. Now you might argue that this STILL does \nnot prove that the Neighbor is possessing Horn, but the new powers of \nNot Horn and the Rajan, and that He-Pen-Sheep calls him \"Neighbor-man\" \n(ala Jesus Christ is often called the \"God-man\" in that he is 100% both) \nimply that resurrected Horn is something quite different from the fellow \nthat fell into the pit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not even mighty Tzadkiel, the Hierogrammate with dominion over the whole\ndamn galaxy, could bring a human body back to life. Of course, I suppose\nBarbatus could have been lying about that, too. (URTH, 359-60)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But of course the Heirogrammates are omnipotent right? There is no power \nunavailable to them that others could do. Which makes me wonder why they \nneeded Severian. How about you?\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-01T16:30:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CF65AB8.1020803@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here is an interesting passage from oBW:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Horn:...the man who called me a minor god..meant that I always do what is right. What else can \nthe distinction between a minor god and a major devil be? The lesser gods...were Pas' friends. \nHe invited them to board the Whorl with his family and himself. The devils came aboard by stealth\nand trickery, like Krait, who came aboard our sloop that night...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nFor me the minor god/major devil mention especially relates to BotNS since I think Urth abounds with\nboth.\n \nThe part about Krait might be further evidence that the Chrasmologic devils are meant to be associated\nwith Inhumi in some way.\n \nBut the part about minor gods being invited friends of Pas/Typhon is most interesting. Easy to see\nhow this could apply to Kypris. But who is the invited friend of Typhon from Urth who becomes mentioned \nin the Writings as The Outsider?\n \nI'm thinking it needs to be an Urthly resident who, like the Outsider, is associated with Dionysus.\nAlso, I recently wondered if perhaps Typhon, like the Autarchs, had a mystical vizier (maybe Ceryx?) who\nmight serve as such a friend. For me, (of course) it all comes back to my favorite character, Father Inire. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<761933AF32AE497CA230737B669A6999@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-01T16:39:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CF65AB8.1020803@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \n“Really” That the Neighbor lied is the only explanation? It can't be that \nthe process cannot be done twice? (\"I cannot make you well AGAIN\") Anyway, \nI think the slashes on the Silk's wrists and the Neighbor's statement that \nshe was sending Not Horn into a person \"whose own spirit is dying\" make it \nclear that Silk killed himself in front of Hyacinth's casket. He was \neither dead or almost dead when the Neighbor's sent dying Not Horn to \nreanimate him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Silk cut himself in despair, but not fatally. Why cut your face if \nyou want to kill your body? His spirit was dying, but not his body. (In \nthe end, I guess, his spirit got better, and Horn's died...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, Seawrack and Babbie took a good look at Horn and were not the least \nin doubt that he had died. They were still certain when he returned to \nthem alive. [I guess they could have lied about that, but I very much \ndoubt it.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From a distance. They didn't climb down into the pit. And neither of them \nis human, so not perhaps the best judges." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF6832E.2030509@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-01T17:17:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<761933AF32AE497CA230737B669A6999@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn-\nI think Silk cut himself in despair, but not fatally. Why cut your \nface if you want to kill your body? His spirit was dying, but not his \nbody. (In the end, I guess, his spirit got better, and Horn's died...)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know Silk's body had cuts on both his arms as well as his wrists. I \ndidn't remember that it says he cut his face as well. Where does it say \nthat?\n\nThe cuts on his arms and wrists seem fairly serious. And while he is \nbeing bandaged he remembers/auditory halucinates that Remora had told \nhim that \"ghosts, for the most part, did not realize they had \ndied\"[snip] \"The, ah, religious know. Generally. Informed, eh? Expected. \nNo ghosts of, um, holy augurs, hey? Or, er, sibyls.\"\n\nThen Remora walks it back:\n\"Not--ah--unheard of. But few. Very few.\"\n\nAnd then he says:\n\"We--ah--anticipate it. Some even pray that it my be hastened...\"\n\nThen Remora goes on about life after death.\n\nWell, I felt like I knew what he was getting at." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote-\nFrom a distance. They didn't climb down into the pit. And neither of \nthem is human, so not perhaps the best judges." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps, but that would suggest to me that the evidence would have had \nto seem incontrovertible to them-- such as, an obviously broken neck and \nvacant open eyes. Especially, since they were still emphatic about it \nafter Horn's return. They didn't say, \"Oh, looks like we made a mistake.\"\n\nU+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9E60582E6CBB4D9492830BD6024C7A5E@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-02T18:49:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CF6832E.2030509@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \nGerry Quinn-" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think Silk cut himself in despair, but not fatally. Why cut your face \nif you want to kill your body? His spirit was dying, but not his body. \n(In the end, I guess, his spirit got better, and Horn's died...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I know Silk's body had cuts on both his arms as well as his wrists. I \ndidn't remember that it says he cut his face as well. Where does it say \nthat?\n\nThe cuts on his arms and wrists seem fairly serious. And while he is being \nbandaged he remembers/auditory halucinates that Remora had told him that \n\"ghosts, for the most part, did not realize they had died\"[snip] \"The, ah, \nreligious know. Generally. Informed, eh? Expected. No ghosts of, um, holy \naugurs, hey? Or, er, sibyls.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you're right about the cuts - I don't know where I got the face \nthing.\n\nAs for the rest, though, I'm not terribly convinced. If the Neighbours can \nresurrect bodies, why not just fix Horn? Why not just accept what we are \ntold?\n\n Through the ring a Neighbor saw him, and she came to him in\n his agony. He told her what was in his heart; and when he had\n finished, she said, \"I cannot make you well again, and if I could\n you would still be in this place. I can do this for you, however,\n if you desire it. I can send your spirit into someone else, into\n someone whose own spirit is dying. If you wish, I will find\n someone in the whorl in which you were born. Then there will\n be one whole man there, instead of two dying men, one here\n and another there.\"\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-02T18:59:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<9E60582E6CBB4D9492830BD6024C7A5E@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nAs for the rest, though, I'm not terribly convinced. “If the Neighbours can\nresurrect bodies, why not just fix Horn”" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a reasonable question for the \"Horn died in the pit\" theory to deal with." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why not just accept what we are told?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because the quote (deleted) is mediated through the Next Generation of\nBluvians, and so subject to two layers of motivation/mediation." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<006b01cb925b$f33e0b80$b9ce4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-12-02T20:03:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<9E60582E6CBB4D9492830BD6024C7A5E@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote, quoted, wrote:\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nGerry Quinn-" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think Silk cut himself in despair, but not fatally. Why cut your\nface\nif you want to kill your body? His spirit was dying, but not his body.\n(In the end, I guess, his spirit got better, and Horn's died...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I know Silk's body had cuts on both his arms as well as his wrists. I\ndidn't remember that it says he cut his face as well. Where does it say\nthat?\n\nThe cuts on his arms and wrists seem fairly serious. And while he is\nbeing\nbandaged he remembers/auditory halucinates that Remora had told him that\n\"ghosts, for the most part, did not realize they had died\"[snip] \"The,\nah,\nreligious know. Generally. Informed, eh? Expected. No ghosts of, um,\nholy\naugurs, hey? Or, er, sibyls.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think you're right about the cuts - I don't know where I got the face\nthing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, you are right. It's right on the same page you quoted from (I have\ndeleted the quote), IGJ p-127. It is Silkhorn's version of the first moments\nafter Horn's spirit entered Silk's body. If you compare his version with the\nversion at the opening of RTTW (written by third parties), you will find\nthat many details differ, not the least of which is that the Long Sun was in\nfact shining when he left the room containing Hy's coffin.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF803BA.7010406@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-02T20:38:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<9E60582E6CBB4D9492830BD6024C7A5E@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn-\nAs for the rest, though, I'm not terribly convinced. If the \nNeighbours can resurrect bodies, why not just fix Horn? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps it is because I'm old-fashioned that I don't have a problem \nimagining the soul in the body as a person inside a suit. In fact, Wolfe \nalmost never presents the soul in purely classical terms. He always \npresents it as a \"wave\" of memories and identity--EXCEPT for Mani in the \nWizard Knight, and...significantly...in the Book of the Short Sun. The \nNeighbors could not just heal Horn because the spirit had left. The \nRajan has an extensive discussion about the distinctness of the human \nspirit and the body's life, and I think it speaks directly to your question:\n\n---------------------------------\nRTTW (HB) pg 66\n\"Let me illustrate my point. A man has a house where he lives for some \nyears with his wife. They are very happy, this man and his wife. They \nlove each other, and whatever else may go amiss, they have each other. \nThen the man's wife dies, and he leaves the house in which he has had so \nmuch happiness. It has become abhorrent to him. Unless the Outsider, the \nGod of gods, restores her to life, he has no wish to see that house ever \nagain. Am I making myself clear?[snip] I am speaking of the spirit \ndeparting the body at death. The body is the house I mentioned, and life \nwas the wife who made it a place of warmth and comfort.[snip] Perhaps \nher husband goes to the gods[snip] perhaps only into darkness. For the \nmoment it doesn't matter. My point is that he leaves the home she made \nfor him, never to return.[snip]\n\"Zwaar, who had been silent until then, said, \"When the spirit goes a \nman dies, I think.\"\nI shook my head. \"He dies because you shot him through the heart. Or \nbecause he suffered some disease or was kicked by a horse [snip] But you \nbring up an important point--that the spirit is not life, nor is the \nlife spirit. And another, that the two are one. A husband is not the \nwife, no more than a wife is her husband; but the two in combination are \none. What I was going to say was that though the man in my little story \nleft his house once and for all when his wife died, he had left it many \ntimes previously. He had gone out to weed their garden, perhaps, or gone \nto the market to buy shoes. In these cases he left it to return.\"\n\n------------------------------\n\nAlso there is in this discussion, a more direct allusion to the fact \nthat Silk killed himself in grief over the death of Hyacinth:\n\n\"If you mean you wish to die when I do, Oreb, I sincerly hope you don't. \n[snip] ...under the Long Sun their rulers went so far as to have their \nfavorite wives burned alive on their funeral pyres. When I die, I \nsincerely hope no friend or relative of mine will succumb to any such \ncruel foolishness.\"\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF9BE63.2010900@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-12-04T04:06:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CF803BA.7010406@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very very quick additional on this - so sorry I can't be on list more \noften, there's lots of stuff I would have liked to respond to but so \nmuch! Really don't mean to start hares and not then follow up but \nsometimes that's what happens. Apologies if I've irritated anyone.\n\nAnyway ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 02/12/10 20:38, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn-\nAs for the rest, though, I'm not terribly convinced. If the \nNeighbours can resurrect bodies, why not just fix Horn? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps it is because I'm old-fashioned that I don't have a problem \nimagining the soul in the body as a person inside a suit. In fact, \nWolfe almost never presents the soul in purely classical terms. He \nalways presents it as a \"wave\" of memories and identity--EXCEPT for \nMani in the Wizard Knight, and...significantly...in the Book of the \nShort Sun. /The Neighbors could not just heal Horn because the spirit \nhad left. /(my emphasis). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some evidence in support of this POV - toward the end of RTTW Silk/Horn, \nJahlee and others go on a 'spirit travel' jaunt with the idea that they \nmight get to see what is happening on Green. Silk/Horn and the other \nparticipants in this experiment know that they might go anywhere as long \nas it is a place where one of their company has been before.\n\nSilk/Horn has assumed that save for himself, none of them save Duko \nRigoglio (who Silk/Horn knows was a Sleeper, and thus was on Long Sun \nWhorl in a state of suspended animation) has been anywhere but Blue; \nsince Rigoglio /was/ a Sleeper, he probably won't influence things all \nthat much since he was, well, asleep prior to the Landings.\n\nUnfortunately no-one has taken into account the idea that Sleepers used \nto be people, with lives, before Typhon 'volunteered' them for his \nstarship cargo. Rigoglio 'hijacks' the spirit travel, and the entire \nparty ends up in his home location, which just happens to be Nessus itself.\n\nRigoglio just about has time to realise that this isn't quite the Nessus \nhe used to know, when he is wounded by an Omophagist. The party \nescort/drag/carry him to the Citadel in search of medical attention, but \nthe best they can find proves to be inadequate, and Rigoglio dies.\n\nTwo things of relevance occur during this little jaunt. Firstly, Jahlee \n(I think it is) proposes that they all go home and that Rigoglio seek \nconventional medical attention back on Blue. Silk/Horn vetoes this; he \nknows that Rigoglio will have no wound that any Blue-ese physician will \nbe able to help; he'll be returned 'with his spirit bleeding to death \ninside him', beyond the ability of medicine to intervene. The party \npresses on, only to find that the healers of Nessus give Rigoglio \n'herbs, when they should have given blood' and thus really fail to help \nhim at all.\n\nSecondly, after Nessus-Rigoglio dies, the party returns to Blue - and we \nare told that when Rigoglio awoke on Blue, he was a 'spiritless thing', \nhis spirit-self having died on the Red Sun Whorl. 'Spiritless' is afair \nspecifically distinguished from 'soulless'. No more details are given, \nbut the reader is left in no doubt that in all respects that matter as \nfar as human life is concerned, Rigoglio is actually dead, even though \nhis physical body was not harmed in any way during the expedition.\n\nIn the light of this I think it possible that when Horn is dying on \nGreen, the Neighbour can't prevent it, because his spirit has already \nseparated itself from the body. All she can do is transfer this spirit \ninto another body in pretty much the same state, ie whose spirit is in \nthe process of departing; a process analogous to the 'spirit travel' \nwhich, although mediated by inhumi, appears in fact to be made possible \nat some level by the Neighbours.\n\nSilk kills himself in despair at Hyacinth's death. Horn, by happenstance \nor providence, dies at that very moment on Green. The Neighbour is able \nsomehow to transfer Horn's spirit into Silk's only-just-dead body. It \nfeels to Horn as though he has passed out for a moment, to regain \nconsciousness beside the coffin of a woman he does not recognise (Horn \ndidn't see much of Hyacinth back in the day, and it's now 25+ years on). \nHis body is streaming blood from various parts due to Silk's suicidal \nself-mutilation.\n\nWhy the face thing by the way? I suspect a mourning ritual gotten \nslightly out of hand. Silk may have intended only to make shallow cuts \nin his skin, including the face, neck and arms, which would be very \nGreco-Roman in fact; but he either made a resolution or became too \nfocussed on the moment, and made one or several of those neck or \narm/wrist cuts a little deeper, then deeper still, with the intention \nof bleeding to death.\n\nAll of which begs the question of where Silk's spirit has really gone. \n'To join Pas' is a possibility - the name 'Passilk' seems to be current, \nand there was that moment in BoTLS where Silk had a vision of Pas with \ntwo heads, one of them his, ie. Silk's, own (naturally Silk has no idea \nat any point that Typhon's second head is that of a slave). One may hope \nnot; it's much more encouraging to think that he has gone to live with \nand in the Outsider.\n\njd" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Rajan has an extensive discussion about the distinctness of the \nhuman spirit and the body's life, and I think it speaks directly to \nyour question:\n\n---------------------------------\nRTTW (HB) pg 66\n\"Let me illustrate my point. A man has a house where he lives for some \nyears with his wife. They are very happy, this man and his wife. They \nlove each other, and whatever else may go amiss, they have each other. \nThen the man's wife dies, and he leaves the house in which he has had \nso much happiness. It has become abhorrent to him. Unless the \nOutsider, the God of gods, restores her to life, he has no wish to see \nthat house ever again. Am I making myself clear?[snip] I am speaking \nof the spirit departing the body at death. The body is the house I \nmentioned, and life was the wife who made it a place of warmth and \ncomfort.[snip] Perhaps her husband goes to the gods[snip] perhaps only \ninto darkness. For the moment it doesn't matter. My point is that he \nleaves the home she made for him, never to return.[snip]\n\"Zwaar, who had been silent until then, said, \"When the spirit goes a \nman dies, I think.\"\nI shook my head. \"He dies because you shot him through the heart. Or \nbecause he suffered some disease or was kicked by a horse [snip] But \nyou bring up an important point--that the spirit is not life, nor is \nthe life spirit. And another, that the two are one. A husband is not \nthe wife, no more than a wife is her husband; but the two in \ncombination are one. What I was going to say was that though the man \nin my little story left his house once and for all when his wife died, \nhe had left it many times previously. He had gone out to weed their \ngarden, perhaps, or gone to the market to buy shoes. In these cases he \nleft it to return.\"\n\n------------------------------\n\nAlso there is in this discussion, a more direct allusion to the fact \nthat Silk killed himself in grief over the death of Hyacinth:\n\n\"If you mean you wish to die when I do, Oreb, I sincerly hope you \ndon't. [snip] ...under the Long Sun their rulers went so far as to \nhave their favorite wives burned alive on their funeral pyres. When I \ndie, I sincerely hope no friend or relative of mine will succumb to \nany such cruel foolishness.\"\n\nu+16b9\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<66B6396492E34CF9AFA0336A19B41875@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-04T16:50:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CF9BE63.2010900@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " ----- Original Message ----- \n From: Jane Delawney \n Why the face thing by the way? I suspect a mourning ritual gotten slightly out of hand. Silk may have intended only to make shallow cuts in his skin, including the face, neck and arms, which would be very Greco-Roman in fact; but he either made a resolution or became too focussed on the moment, and made one or several of those neck or arm/wrist cuts a little deeper, then deeper still, with the intention of bleeding to death. \n\n All of which begs the question of where Silk's spirit has really gone. 'To join Pas' is a possibility - the name 'Passilk' seems to be current, and there was that moment in BoTLS where Silk had a vision of Pas with two heads, one of them his, ie. Silk's, own (naturally Silk has no idea at any point that Typhon's second head is that of a slave). One may hope not; it's much more encouraging to think that he has gone to live with and in the Outsider. \nMaybe I am being over-simplistic, but my impression is that Silk's spirit is dying, but not his body (as the Neighbour says). As you put it, a mourning ritual gets out of hand, but not fatally to Silk's body.\n\nConversely, Horn is in the opposite situation. His body dies, while his spirit flies to Silk's body.\n\nWhat happens Silk? I think his spirit remains dormant in his old body, now occupied by Horn's spirit. (Aspects of Pas seem to be there too; although uploading is distinct from possession, I suspect a certain amount of spirit mingling has taken place here too.) \n\nAs time goes on Horn falls into despair, and Silk's spirit recovers and uptimately displaces Horn.\n\nBut what happens Horn? That I can't answer.\n\nI guess I need to re-read these before coming ti any definitive conclusions.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFA9D18.70802@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-04T19:57:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CF9BE63.2010900@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn-\nThe Neighbors could not just heal Horn because the spirit had left." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jane Delawyney-\nSome evidence in support of this POV [snip] Secondly, after \nNessus-Rigoglio dies, the party returns to Blue - and we are told that \nwhen Rigoglio awoke on Blue, he was a 'spiritless thing', his \nspirit-self having died on the Red Sun Whorl. 'Spiritless' is afair \nspecifically distinguished from 'soulless'. No more details are given, \nbut the reader is left in no doubt that in all respects that matter \nas far as human life is concerned, Rigoglio is actually dead, even \nthough his physical body was not harmed in any way during the expedition.\n\nIn the light of this I think it possible that when Horn is dying on \nGreen, the Neighbour can't prevent it, because his spirit has already \nseparated itself from the body.[snip]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Significantly, there are puppet references associated with Horn. Shortly \nafter leaving home, he is attacked by a leatherskin, a creature with \nthree jaws. It is Pinocchio's \"dog fish\" (\"Monstro\" the whale in the \nDisney movie) that has three jaws. Earlier he relates a story from \nHorn's childhood about a puppet he had.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFAC339.9060900@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-04T22:39:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<66B6396492E34CF9AFA0336A19B41875@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn-\nMaybe I am being over-simplistic, but my impression is that Silk's \nspirit is dying, but not his body (as the Neighbour says). As you put \nit, a mourning ritual gets out of hand, but not fatally to Silk's \nbody. Conversely, Horn is in the opposite situation. His body dies, \nwhile his spirit flies to Silk's body.\nWhat happens Silk? I think his spirit remains dormant in his old \nbody, now occupied by Horn's spirit. (Aspects of Pas seem to be there \ntoo; although uploading is distinct from possession, I suspect a \ncertain amount of spirit mingling has taken place here too.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even if your reading of \"one whose spirit is dying\" is the one intended \n(and it might well be), it comes to the same thing. We have examples of \ndying spirits in The Book of the Short Sun (Jane offered a good one. \nThere are others.) If Silk's spirit was dying, then it would need \nanother spirit to animate the body. If Silk's body was animated by \nHorn's spirit, there's no reason to believe it would heal Silk's dying \nspirit because the \"wound\" it had suffered was Hyacinth's death. HORN's \nproblem was not that his spirit was dying but that his life was dying. \nThere is no justification in the story for that spirit to subsequently \ndie while Silk's lives.\n\nIf Silk's spirit dies, his body needs Horn's spirit. And that's what I \nargue happened.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<65D94824C7E148869B57AC76EC64526B@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-04T23:11:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CFAC339.9060900@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " From: James Wynn \n Gerry Quinn-\n Maybe I am being over-simplistic, but my impression is that Silk's spirit is dying, but not his body (as the Neighbour says). As you put it, a mourning ritual gets out of hand, but not fatally to Silk's body. Conversely, Horn is in the opposite situation. His body dies, while his spirit flies to Silk's body.\n\n What happens Silk? I think his spirit remains dormant in his old body, now occupied by Horn's spirit. (Aspects of Pas seem to be there too; although uploading is distinct from possession, I suspect a certain amount of spirit mingling has taken place here too.)\n\n\n Even if your reading of \"one whose spirit is dying\" is the one intended (and it might well be), it comes to the same thing. We have examples of dying spirits in The Book of the Short Sun (Jane offered a good one. There are others.) If Silk's spirit was dying, then it would need another spirit to animate the body. If Silk's body was animated by Horn's spirit, there's no reason to believe it would heal Silk's dying spirit because the \"wound\" it had suffered was Hyacinth's death. HORN's problem was not that his spirit was dying but that his life was dying. There is no justification in the story for that spirit to subsequently die while Silk's lives.\n\n If Silk's spirit dies, his body needs Horn's spirit. And that's what I argue happened.\nYou say there's no justification in the story... but then what do you think happens at the end? My impression is that Silk returns somehow. At the least, what remains at the end seems not to be Horn - it might be some kind of merger of Horn and Silk I suppose. [I can't say I like the ending of RttW, it's all very Wizard of Oz... but as I said I guess I need another read or two to be very sure of my opinions.]\n\nHorn took some bad beats - and weren't there indications before now that he had some suicidal tendencies? As to why Silk's spirit resurrected, I don't know. Maybe he got a nudge from the Pas part of him ;-)\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFAD855.3050200@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-05T00:09:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<65D94824C7E148869B57AC76EC64526B@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " James Wynn-\n There is no justification in the story for [Horn's] spirit to\n subsequently die while Silk's lives. If Silk's spirit dies, his\n body needs Horn's spirit. And that's what I argue happened.\n\nGerry Quinn-\nYou say there's no justification in the story... but then what do you \nthink happens at the end? My impression is that Silk returns \nsomehow. At the least, what remains at the end seems not to be Horn - \nit might be some kind of merger of Horn and Silk I suppose." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course it's not Horn. (I say) Horn died in the pit and even his \nmemories--those physically housed in his body--died on Green. By the \ntime the Rajan begins writing the story, all that is left of Horn is the \nmemory of his memories. Silk's memories live on physically, but his \nspirit has died. It is the Neighbor that continues to animate him. \nThematically, this is a rationalization of the Trinity. Father, Son, and \nHoly Spirit.\n\nWhat on first read, might seem to be Silk grieving over Hyacinth (and \nthere is some conflation there) is in fact the Neighbor grieving over \nthe death of Horn, remembering Horn's remorse at his of loss of future. \nOr perhaps he's grieving over the destruction of his people." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[I can't say I like the ending of RttW, it's all very Wizard of Oz... \nbut as I said I guess I need another read or two to be very sure of my \nopinions.] Horn took some bad beats - and weren't there indications \nbefore now that he had some suicidal tendencies?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you are thinking of Horn leaping from the floater. But Wolfe has \nconfirmed that that was mischievous Mucor possessing him, acting on \nSilk's suicidal tendencies. And now that you bring it up, there were \nprevious indications of Silk tending toward morbid thoughts.\n\nu+16b9" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As to why Silk's spirit resurrected, I don't know. Maybe he got a \nnudge from the Pas part of him ;-)\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-05T17:14:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CFAD855.3050200@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " ----- Original Message ----- \n From: James Wynn \n\n James Wynn-\n There is no justification in the story for [Horn's] spirit to subsequently die while Silk's lives. If Silk's spirit dies, his body needs Horn's spirit. And that's what I argue happened.\n Gerry Quinn-\n You say there's no justification in the story... but then what do you think happens at the end? My impression is that Silk returns somehow. At the least, what remains at the end seems not to be Horn - it might be some kind of merger of Horn and Silk I suppose. \n\n\n Of course it's not Horn. (I say) Horn died in the pit and even his memories--those physically housed in his body--died on Green. By the time the Rajan begins writing the story, all that is left of Horn is the memory of his memories. Silk's memories live on physically, but his spirit has died. It is the Neighbor that continues to animate him. Thematically, this is a rationalization of the Trinity. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.\n\nBut something happens at the end, after the inhumi attack the church. Up to now there has been this person who appears to be Horn in Silk's body, although at some point we go from first to third person (no point that appears special, though). Then suddenly something happens and the text decribes him as Silk, as if Remora's mention of hyacinths had brought him back.\n\nIf a Neighbour spirit is somehow animating Silk's body, what's happening here?\n\nAlso, if a Neighbour replaced Horn in the pit, how did he know Krait would come? If Krait (character list: the inhuma who was adopted by Horn) hadn't come, it seems he would have lain there for ever and died - died again, according to your theory. Unless the Neighbour had planned it all with Krait (and their conversation seems to make it doubtful) why would the Neighbour engage in such a pointless exercise, effectively killing his own spirit for no good reason?\n\nAlso, doesn't it happen afterwards that the Neighbours turn over Blue to Horn in return for certain considerations, in his capacity as representative of the human race on Blue? If Horn is really a Neighbourm how is this agreement legitimate?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<008201cb951f$75f36000$b1d04a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-12-06T08:27:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nAlso, if a Neighbour replaced Horn in the pit, how did he know Krait would\ncome? If Krait (character list: the inhuma who was adopted by Horn) hadn't\ncome, it seems he would have lain there for ever and died - died again,\naccording to your theory. Unless the Neighbour had planned it all with\nKrait (and their conversation seems to make it doubtful) why would the\nNeighbour engage in such a pointless exercise, effectively killing his own\nspirit for no good reason?<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-----------------\n\nThat isn't the only problem this theory creates. It calls into question\neverything that happened after the pit, which extends to the whole\nmanuscript written by Silkhorn. For one, it puts a different spin on\neverthing Silkhorn had to say about the Neighbors. If Silkhorn was actually\na Neighbor, then he knew perfectly well their natural state of being, where\nthey went when they left Blue, what god(s) they worshipped, etc. He had no\nneed to wonder about any of the questions about Neighbors he wondered about;\nhe would or should have known the answers.\n\n------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, doesn't it happen afterwards that the Neighbours turn over Blue to\nHorn in return for certain considerations, in his capacity as representative\nof the human race on Blue? If Horn is really a Neighbourm how is this\nagreement legitimate?<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-----------------\n\nQuite so.\n\nWhen the person calling himself Horn met that group of Neighbors in the\nLand of Fires, the Neighbors who said that they, the remnant of their race,\nhad given Blue to the humans, he was asked (three times), as the\nrepresentative of the human race, if there would be any objection to\nNeighbors visiting Blue from time to time (OBW, 271). The Neighbors were\nassured that they could come and go as they pleased. If the entity who\nrepresented all humans was a Neighbor, not a human, then he was not a true\nrepresentative of the human race and was not qualified to speak on its\nbehalf.\n\nIf the group of Neighbors did not know they were dealing with a fellow\nNeighbor, it makes them foolish, at best. If they did know, it reduces the\nwhole scene to a farce.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFD3F65.1010702@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T19:54:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " More coming. But I'll answer these questions right now:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nAlso, doesn't it happen afterwards that the Neighbours turn over Blue \nto Horn in return for certain considerations, in his capacity as \nrepresentative of the human race on Blue? If Horn is really a \nNeighbourm how is this agreement legitimate?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote-\nIf the entity who\nrepresented all humans was a Neighbor, not a human, then he was not a true\nrepresentative of the human race and was not qualified to speak on its\nbehalf." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is ONLY legitimate _because_ HORN is _more_ than human. \nHe-Pen-Sheep's people were in proximity to the Neighbor's on that island \nfor decades, but there was no attempt to cut that deal. You might as \nwell ask why it is legitimate for merely human Horn to to cut a deal \nwith the Neighbors on behalf of the whole human race. The answer is, it \nwouldn't be. But it _would_ be if Horn were more than human and if you \nunderstand the concept of the \"Mediator\" -- I already explained that \nthis is both an orthodox and gnostic Christian concept:\n/\"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man \nChrist Jesus.\" ~Timothy 2:5/\n\nHORN, the resurrected Horn, is the only being in the universe that is \n100% human and 100% Neighbor. He's the \"Neighbor-man\" as He-Pen-Sheep \ncalled him. This is why he alone can receive the planet from the hands \nof the Neighbors and why he alone can make an agreement with \nthem--perhaps the Bible term covenant or testament better--on behalf of \nthe humanity.\n\nYou don't have to go too far _to go too far_ when comparing Severian to \nJesus. But in the case of the Rajan, it keeps slamming you in the face. \nHe's much more of a legitimate CHRIST-figure. Not equivalent to Christ \nas Aslan is, but none-the-less." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T20:43:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CFD3F65.1010702@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey: If the entity who represented all humans was a Neighbor, not a human, then he was not a true\nrepresentative of the human race and was not qualified to speak on its behalf." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSince that entity had Horn's body and memories mustn't we define him, within James' theory, as part-human\npart-Neighbor?\n \nI think there is a long tradition of legends and folk heroes who were able to reconcile conflict between \ntwo races or between man and God(s) by possessing essence from both sides. We could go from Jesus to Mowgli\nto Hercules to Tarzan to Obama (heh). Hey anybody see that movie Avatar?\n \nI have been cheeky enough to suggest that Severian might have some alien/god ancestry. If true would it make\nhim a better or worse candidate for Conciliator?\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFD4ECF.4010607@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T20:59:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CFD3F65.1010702@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (06-12-2010 19:54):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "HORN, the resurrected Horn, is the only being in the universe that is\n100% human and 100% Neighbor. He's the \"Neighbor-man\" as He-Pen-Sheep\ncalled him. This is why he alone can receive the planet from the hands of\nthe Neighbors and why he alone can make an agreement with them--perhaps\nthe Bible term covenant or testament better--on behalf of the humanity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I may be missing something, but isn't that episode *before* Horn goes to\ngreen and his body dies there?\n\nI find it easier to picture that the Neighbours are observant enough to know \nthat Horn - even before going to Green - is one of the most humanly \ndeveloped inhabitants on Blue and hence able to make such a deal." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFD5225.5070906@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T21:14:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CFD4ECF.4010607@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques-\nI may be missing something, but isn't that episode *before* Horn goes to\ngreen and his body dies there?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. Horn dies twice. First in the pit on the island. Then on Green in \nthe lander." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find it easier to picture that the Neighbours are observant enough \nto know that Horn - even before going to Green - is one of the most \nhumanly developed inhabitants on Blue and hence able to make such a deal." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What does he do that makes you think of him that way?\n\nAnd when you answer remember that everything we know about Horn was \nrecorded after the Rajan's return from the Whorl.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFD5478.6010802@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T21:24:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/6/2010 2:43 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nRoy C. Lackey: If the entity who represented all humans was a Neighbor, not a human, then he was not a true\nrepresentative of the human race and was not qualified to speak on its behalf." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Since that entity had Horn's body and memories mustn't we define him, within James' theory, as part-human part-Neighbor?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would not say so.\nI sat in on a Wolfe Q&A discussion in which someone said, \"...and after \nall, Typhon was on the Whorl as Pas, in a way.\" Wolfe adamantly \ncorrected him, \"Not 'in a way', he _was_ on the Whorl.\"\nWell, what was transferable from Typhon to Pas was what would be \ncontained Horn's living body: His memories and his sense of identity. If \nTyphon was every bit on the Whorl as Pas then Horn was entirely there as \nthe resurrected Horn 100%. And if a body in dream-travel is to be \nthought of as \"all there\", then the spirit of the resurrected Horn (the \nNeighbor) is 100% there too.\nSo the resurrected Horn is 100% human, 100% Neighbor.\n\nI have more to say about this in the rest of my answer to Gerry and Roy.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T21:24:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CFD5225.5070906@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 1:14 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nAnd when you answer remember that everything we know about Horn was recorded\nafter the Rajan's return from the Whorl." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Almost; there are the bits and pieces about him in Long Sun/\"the book\nof Silk,\" which was clearly written before the events of Short Sun\nbegin." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7107D52F7B594F2E994D776AA6F814D4@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-06T21:24:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CFD3F65.1010702@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For some reason reason to with formatting I can't interleave my response, so I'll have to top-post." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You might as well ask why it is legitimate for merely human Horn to to cut\na deal with the Neighbors on behalf of the whole human race. The answer is,\n it wouldn't be." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not for humans. My assumption here was that the Neighbours have different customs related to such agreements; perhaps they are more communally-minded than humans. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "HORN, the resurrected Horn, is the only being in the universe that is 100% \nhuman and 100% Neighbor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If your theory is true, he seems to me more like the Manchurian Candidate in this regard!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He's much more of a legitimate CHRIST-figure" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He's some kind of mystical figure all right, although I don't recall any incidents from the Gospels in which Jesus lured troops onto minefields, or raised vampires as terror weapons. (Seems more like a bit of old Pas coming out to me.)\n\nAlso, he continues to worship the Outsider - how does that fit in?\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n ----- Original Message ----- \n From: James Wynn " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFD5EBE.3060205@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T22:07:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CFD5478.6010802@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn-\nYou might as well ask why it is legitimate for merely human Horn to \nto cut\na deal with the Neighbors on behalf of the whole human race. The \nanswer is,\nit wouldn't be." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn-\nNot for humans. My assumption here was that the Neighbours have \ndifferent customs related to such agreements; perhaps they are more \ncommunally-minded than humans." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So...the deal-making was farce? The Rajan (who really just Silk after \nall) will go on to the Whorl and Neighbors will soon discover that their \nbargain is not worth the paper it wasn't written on?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn-\nHORN, the resurrected Horn, is the only being in the universe that is \n100%\nhuman and 100% Neighbor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn-\nIf your theory is true, he seems to me more like the Manchurian \nCandidate in this regard!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I seem to be having a problem clarifying homoneius. Still, I'll try to \nget the rest of my response out tonight, and hopefully it will be \nclearer. Although, I'm sensing that you're reading them only to come up \nwith quick objections and reponses chosen for their supposed wit rather \nthan than insightful understanding." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn-\nHe's much more of a legitimate CHRIST-figure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn-\nHe's some kind of mystical figure all right, although I don't recall \nany incidents from the Gospels in which Jesus lured \ntroops onto minefields, or raised vampires as terror weapons. (Seems \nmore like a bit of old Pas coming out to me.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You read the part where I said \"Not equivalent to Christ as Aslan is\" \nright?\nI don't see much Pas-like in saving a town from tyranny.\nStill, not everything in the New Testament is \"gentle Jesus meek and mild\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn-\nAlso, he continues to worship the Outsider - how does that fit in?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It works just fine for Arminianist theology. And, in fact, it is not \nignored in Augustinian Trinitarian doctrine either.\n/\"I keep asking that _the God of our Lord Jesus Christ_ , the Father of \nglory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the \nknowledge of Him.\" _Ephesians 1:17/\n\nAnd he is a Christ figure on multiple levels. As three-persons-in-one, \nhe is a picture of God Himself.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T22:29:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CFD5EBE.3060205@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 2:07 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nGerry Quinn-\nAlso, he continues to worship the Outsider - how does that fit in?\n\nIt works just fine for Arminianist theology. And, in fact, it is not ignored\nin Augustinian Trinitarian doctrine either.\n\"I keep asking that _the God of our Lord Jesus Christ_ , the Father of\nglory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge\nof Him.\" _Ephesians 1:17" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While I am not necessarily buying onto James's theory here (though it\nhas some merit and I may end up convinced), I should point out that\nthe Jesus of the New Testament frequently prays, notably in the Garden\nof Gethsemane." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFD7087.8070105@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T23:23:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CFD5EBE.3060205@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn-\nHe's much more of a legitimate CHRIST-figure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn-\nHe's some kind of mystical figure all right, although I don't recall \nany incidents from the Gospels in which Jesus lured \ntroops onto minefields, or raised vampires as terror weapons. (Seems \nmore like a bit of old Pas coming out to me.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just remembered that inhumi are seraphim-- flying deadly serpents-- \nala Isaiah 14:26 and 30:6 (saraph uwph saraph). Leading angels into \nbattle in a very Jesus-like thing.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFD8800.2040604@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-07T01:04:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CFD5225.5070906@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques-\nI may be missing something, but isn't that episode *before* Horn goes to\ngreen and his body dies there?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. Horn dies twice. First in the pit on the island. Then on Green in\nthe lander." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Has the first time been discussed at length somewhere? Who/what power is \nsupposed to have resurrected him? I'm not confortable with that episode \neither with him dying/resurrecting or just recovering from the fall, but the \nlatter is a bit more economical." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I find it easier to picture that the Neighbours are observant enough\nto know that Horn - even before going to Green - is one of the most\nhumanly developed inhabitants on Blue and hence able to make such a deal." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What does he do that makes you think of him that way?\n\nAnd when you answer remember that everything we know about Horn was\nrecorded after the Rajan's return from the Whorl." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Including the Long Sun?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFD89E6.2090203@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-07T01:12:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CFD5225.5070906@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nAnt?nio Pedro Marques-\nI find it easier to picture that the Neighbours are observant enough\nto know that Horn - even before going to Green - is one of the most\nhumanly developed inhabitants on Blue and hence able to make such a deal.\n\nWhat does he do that makes you think of him that way?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Book of Silk looks to me like a significant work, in need of s \nsignificant author.\n\nIn fact, all we know of Horn is from Horn's hand. All we know of Silk, too. \nFor all we know, SIlk may have never existed, even, and 'Horn' is just who \nthe narrator identifies with. The Book of Silk may be a tremendous \nfabrication (but tremendous nonetheless)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFD8B9C.1000903@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-07T01:19:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CFD3F65.1010702@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\n More coming. But I'll answer these questions right now:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nAlso, doesn't it happen afterwards that the Neighbours turn over Blue\nto Horn in return for certain considerations, in his capacity as\nrepresentative of the human race on Blue? If Horn is really a\nNeighbourm how is this agreement legitimate?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote-\nIf the entity who\nrepresented all humans was a Neighbor, not a human, then he was not a true\nrepresentative of the human race and was not qualified to speak on its\nbehalf." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is ONLY legitimate _because_ HORN is _more_ than human.\nHe-Pen-Sheep's people were in proximity to the Neighbor's on that island\nfor decades, but there was no attempt to cut that deal. You might as\nwell ask why it is legitimate for merely human Horn to to cut a deal\nwith the Neighbors on behalf of the whole human race. The answer is, it\nwouldn't be. But it _would_ be if Horn were more than human and if you\nunderstand the concept of the \"Mediator\" -- I already explained that\nthis is both an orthodox and gnostic Christian concept:\n/\"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man\nChrist Jesus. ~Timothy 2:5/\n\nHORN, the resurrected Horn, is the only being in the universe that is\n100% human and 100% Neighbor. He's the \"Neighbor-man\" as He-Pen-Sheep\ncalled him. This is why he alone can receive the planet from the hands\nof the Neighbors and why he alone can make an agreement with\nthem--perhaps the Bible term covenant or testament better--on behalf of\nthe humanity.\n\nYou don't have to go too far _to go too far_ when comparing Severian to\nJesus. But in the case of the Rajan, it keeps slamming you in the face.\nHe's much more of a legitimate CHRIST-figure. Not equivalent to Christ\nas Aslan is, but none-the-less." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And regarding the mediation view, I honestly don't think it works (no \noffense intended). Christ's sacrifice could be made for Man because it was a \nsacrifice. Not a deal. In a deal there are obligations for both sides, and \nthat's why it can't morally be done in your name by someone who is more than \nyou. A man who is essentially more than other men can't in good conscience \naccept obligations on their behalf.\n\nNow you might say the deal was essentially free, but that's another matter, \nbegging for reframing of the discussion." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFD8F69.10004@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-07T01:35:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CFD7087.8070105@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James, you are on a roll this past week." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/6/2010 6:23 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "James Wynn-\nHe's much more of a legitimate CHRIST-figure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn-\nHe's some kind of mystical figure all right, although I don't recall \nany incidents from the Gospels in which Jesus lured \ntroops onto minefields, or raised vampires as terror weapons. (Seems \nmore like a bit of old Pas coming out to me.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I just remembered that inhumi are seraphim-- flying deadly serpents-- \nala Isaiah 14:26 and 30:6 (saraph uwph saraph). Leading angels into \nbattle in a very Jesus-like thing.\n\nu+16b9\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFDB5F1.1000704@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-07T04:20:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<008201cb951f$75f36000$b1d04a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn-\nBut something happens at the end, after the inhumi attack the church. \nUp to now there has been this person who appears to be Horn in Silk's \nbody, although at some point we go from first to third person (no \npoint that appears special, though). Then suddenly something happens \nand the text decribes him as Silk, as if Remora's mention of hyacinths \nhad brought him back.If a Neighbour spirit is somehow animating Silk's \nbody, what's happening here?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote-\nThat isn't the only problem this theory creates.\nIt calls into question everything that happened after the pit,\nwhich extends to the whole manuscript written by Silkhorn.\nFor one, it puts a different spin on everthing Silkhorn had to say about\nthe Neighbors. If Silkhorn was actually a Neighbor, then he knew perfectly\nwell their natural state of being, where they went when they left Blue,\nwhat god(s) they worshipped, etc. He had no need to wonder about any of\nthe questions about Neighbors he wondered about; he would or should have\nknown the answers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, the Rajan is not merely a Neighbor in human disguise. I \nunderstand why this is so hard to keep this in mind because it was a \nconcept that was controversially debated in the development of the \ndoctrine of the Trinity. The Rajan is 100% Silk -- as surely as Typhon \nis present in the Whorl in the person of Pas (and Wolfe has adamantly \nasserted that Typhon genuinely is), Silk is present in the Rajan. But he \nis 100% the Neighbor as well. And to some extent, --or perhaps to the \nfull extent if the Neighbor has 100% recall, as is maybe implied-- he is \n100% Horn (because Horn is present to the extent that the Neighbor \nremembers Horn's memories).\n\nAnyway, the Neighbor was apparently not fully conscious--only \nsubconsciously aware-- of his Neighbor-nature until the end of the \nstory, at the end of his conversation with Remora (there are various \nother reasons for this that I get into below).\n\nOther examples of this in Wolfe's are writings are 1) the chapter The \nAlzabo in Sword of the Lictor in which Wolfe demonstrates how the animal \ninstincts and the souls inhabiting it support each other's instincts. 2) \nAnother very important example is Mani the cat in The Wizard Knight, an \ntalking cat created by a witch by binding an immortal elemental spirit \nto a cat. Mani and Able have a conversation about what will happen when \nMani dies:\n\n\"Will I really be free when the cat dies? You said something about that \n[snip] That I'll be an elemental once more. '\n'No, you won't.'\n'The elemental will be free, no longer having any share in life. You're \nnot the elemental or the cat. You're both, and the cat will die like \nother cats.'\n'I'd like to think I'm just...the other thing. The thing that talks.'\n'Then I'll cut off your ear and we'll see if it hurts.'\n'You would, wouldn't you?' \"\n[The Wizard HB 307]\n\nEarlier Mani says, \"Once I was a free spirit. Once I was a normal cat \nnot troubled by lies. [snip] The first is the finest of existences, the \nsecond the finest of lives. I have lost both.\"\n\nMani the cat was neither the cat nor the elemental spirit, but something \nnew from their joining. Mani didn't drone on and on as an all-wise \nimmortal spirit. Or regale others about his non-life as an elemental. \nBecause he didn't...couldn't remember it. At least not consciously, most \nof the time. There was that time at the meeting with the Neighbors however:\n\n\" 'My name is Horn.' I offered my hand.\nHe took it, and this time I felt his hand _and remembered it_ . It was \nhard, and seemed to be covered with short, stiff hairs. Beyond that I \nwill not say.\"[oBW HB 272]\n\nSo while the Rajan knows a lot about the Neighbors because he is likely \nin communication with them, and talks to the inhumi on his staff, and \nmight have subconscious memories about them, and for all those reasons \ncan make educated guesses about them -- it is not expected that he would \nKNOW--at least not until the end of RttW.\n\nIn summation, it is a mistake to think of the Rajan as a Neighbor who \nhappens to have access to databases of Silk's and Horn's memories. He is \nsomething new. Wolfe deliberately keeps _what he is_ rather ambivalent, \nprobably because it is impossible to define precisely. He is a being \ndriven to complete Horn's mission, as Horn was. He is driven by guilt \nfor having caused Horn's death. He is driven by resentment toward Sinew \nfor having killed him and regret for that resentment. Horn, the \nNeighbor, and Silk, all bear a sense of self-loathing for different \nreasons. Each is driven by a sense of longing for a woman and for two \nthe loss cannot be healed because Hyacinth is dead and Horn is dead. I \nthink the sense of dissatisfaction at the end of the story is that we \ndon't really know what drives the Rajan anymore. I think I know, but \nthat's another theory.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFDB679.50803@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-07T04:22:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CFD8F69.10004@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, if a Neighbour replaced Horn in the pit, how did he know Krait \nwould come? If Krait (character list: the inhuma who was adopted by \nHorn) hadn't come, it seems he would have lain there for ever and died \n- died again, according to your theory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll answer this, however, one might as well speculate what are the odds \nKrait (very coincidentally ensouled by Horn's son) would find Horn in \nthat pit after he had lain \"unconscious\" there for three days? Does \nKrait KNOW he is, in a sense, Sinew? Understanding that Dorcas is \nSeverian's grandmother did not answer every open question about Sev's \nlineage. I'm don't claim that simply understanding that the Rajan's \nspirit is a Neighbor--the greenbuck Horn was hunting when he died--that \nevery question regarding the Book of the Short Sun will be resolved. \nBelieving that Horn did NOT die in the pit has its own unresolved \nmysteries." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Unless the Neighbour had planned it all with Krait (and their \nconversation seems to make it doubtful) why would the Neighbour engage \nin such a pointless exercise, effectively killing his own spirit for \nno good reason?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "First and foremost, there is no evidence that the Neighbor was animated \nby a specific *plan* in resurrecting Horn. He did what he did out of \nguilt for causing Horn's death. After that, after he becomes HORN, he is \ndriven to complete Horn's mission to expiate his sense of guilt. I know \nof no point where the Rajan records mentally working out: \"I have to get \nSilk's body back to New Viron to complete Horn's mission.\" But that is \njust what the Rajan does--animated by the spirit inside him.\n\nAs for \"killing his own spirit\", consider the example of Mani. The \nNeighbor, in greenbuck-form is a spiritual being like the humans and \ninhumi during dream-travel, He was not in any danger of \"killing his \nspirit\". His body is surely sleeping safely somewhere, and if you deny \nthat the Neighbors have such bodies, then they are still spiritual \nbeings. If HORN had not been able to escape the pit, then Horn's body \nMIGHT have faced such damage that the Neighbor would have to abandon it, \nOR maybe not. It is clear that the Rajan, in Silk's body, doesn't really \nneed food --or not not much-- until Spring. Although HORN was very \nthirsty, it is quite possible he could have survived easily until the \nnext rain. Given time and unknown Neighborly powers, he might very well \nhave been expected to escape the pit by other means.\n\nAt this point, you can deduce some of my answers to the questions, \n\"Didn't the Neighbor know that? So, how could he allow himself to be \n'tamed' by Krait?\" No, there is no reason that Neighbor would have known \nthat he would face such a horrific thirst when he resurrected Horn's \nbody. Because of a) what I explain in *Point 1* and b) a Neighbor-Human \nunion had never happened before as far as we know. Nor would the \nNeighbor have been subconsciously steeled by the fact that if Horn's \nbody died, he himself would live on. From the moment of his \nresurrection, his intent was to live on and complete Horn's mission. Had \nhe been perfectly willing for Horn's body to die, he would not have \nresurrected it in the first place.\n\n/Therefore my heart is glad and my _tongue_ rejoices; my body also will \nrest secure, because you will not abandon me to the grave [or hades], \nnor will you let your Holy One _see decay_ . [from the Hebrew \n'shachath', literally//, \"leave him in the pit\"]. ~ Psalm 16:9-10 \n(well-known Messianic prophecy)/\n\nFinally, recall the corollary to Veil's Law (tFHoC). If it was the \nNeighbor's intent to BE Horn..that Horn not have died (and that appears \nto appears to be his prime motivation for most of his story)... then he \nmust deny--consciously-- his Neighbor-nature. He would never speak of \nthe Neighbors with certitude, because Horn would not have that \nknowledge. Horn in the pit is like V.R.T in his jail cell. But then, he \nmight not have all knowledge about Neighbors and their history because \nsuch knowledge might not be universally known by all Neighbors.\n\nu+16b9\n\nPS This discussion brings to mind an old song:\n\n/\"He weren't no universal principle. He weren't no universal mind.\nHe weren't no New Romantic snowing us that love is blind.\nHe never told us that he was invincible. He never sold us on his X-ray eyes.\nNever came off like some extraterrestrial hanging out in human disguise.\nFlesh and blood. He weren't no phantom.\nFlesh and blood. He weren't no ghost.\"/\n~ Steve Scott, \"Flesh and Blood\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<007f01cb95e1$0c6f6bc0$f4d24a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-12-07T07:33:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CFDB5F1.1000704@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mani the cat was neither the cat nor the elemental spirit, but something\nnew from their joining. Mani didn't drone on and on as an all-wise\nimmortal spirit. Or regale others about his non-life as an elemental.\nBecause he didn't...couldn't remember it. At least not consciously, most\nof the time. There was that time at the meeting with the Neighbors\nhowever:\n\n\" 'My name is Horn.' I offered my hand.\nHe took it, and this time I felt his hand _and remembered it_ . It was\nhard, and seemed to be covered with short, stiff hairs. Beyond that I\nwill not say.\"[oBW HB 272]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see why you attach such importance to that quote. It has nothing to\ndo with what happened in the pit. It is a direct reference to what Silkhorn\nwrote on page 267, about the first moments after the Neighbor woke Horn and\ntold him to get up and come with him:\n\n \" 'Come with me,' he said, and he helped me to stand up, grasping both\nmy hands while lifting me under the arms. I ought to remember how his hands\nfelt, I am sure - but I do not. My mind was on other things, perhaps.\n \"He strode off through the trees, then turned to me and took my hand\nagain to make certain that I was following him.\"\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-07T09:30:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<007f01cb95e1$0c6f6bc0$f4d24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy- > \" 'My name is Horn.' I offered my hand. He took it, and this time I felt his hand _and remembered it_ . It was" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "hard, and seemed to be covered with short, stiff hairs. Beyond that I will not say.\"[oBW HB 272]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see why you attach such importance to that quote." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI'm glad the conversation in this thread has drifted back to its subject and the \"God of Wine\" that Horn mentions in\nconnection to The Outsider. What would a goat hand be like, if a goat had a hand?\n \nRoy didn't we have a discussion regarding ungulates and the names Horn, Hoof, Hide etc.\n \nHm..on the other hand...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dionysus was another god of resurrection who was strongly linked to the bull. In a cult hymn from Olympia, at a festival \nfor Hera, Dionysus is also invited to come as a bull, \"with bull-foot raging.\" \"Quite frequently he is portrayed with \nbull horns, and in Kyzikos he has a tauromorphic image,\" -Wikipedia" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSeverian has a dream in which Thecla has a remembrance of her father. In the dream there is taurean figure I'd always\nwondered about. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFE3EDF.9080809@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-07T14:04:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<007f01cb95e1$0c6f6bc0$f4d24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\" 'My name is Horn.' I offered my hand.\nHe took it, and this time I felt his hand _and remembered it_ . It was\nhard, and seemed to be covered with short, stiff hairs. Beyond that I\nwill not say.\"[oBW HB 272]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy-\nI don't see why you attach such importance to that quote. It has nothing to\ndo with what happened in the pit. It is a direct reference to what Silkhorn\nwrote on page 267, about the first moments after the Neighbor woke Horn and\ntold him to get up and come with him:\n\n \" 'Come with me,' he said, and he helped me to stand up, grasping both\nmy hands while lifting me under the arms. I ought to remember how his hands\nfelt, I am sure - but I do not. My mind was on other things, perhaps.\n \"He strode off through the trees, then turned to me and took my hand\nagain to make certain that I was following him.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know why you can't see this is an important quote. First of all, \nHORN is up-front about holding information back here. In a first person \nmemoir, that's a _big_ deal. And the scene involves memory...which is \nobviously also significant in a memoir. It's a big, big deal.\n\nEven your reading of the quote is a strange one. But I say, by default \nHORN/Rajan can't or chooses not to remember his Neighborly past. This \nmoment gives him access to those memories although he chooses to reject \nthem.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-07T15:00:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CFE3EDF.9080809@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm in the middle of reading OBW now, and realise it's dangerous to\ncomment before you have reached the end of a series, but a couple of\nthings occur to me:\n\n1. I'm not sure anyone has mentioned so far that the Neighbours _say_\nwhy they have chosen Horn to make the deal - because he is well\ndisposed towards them. Why they think _that_ can still be disputed, of\ncourse - that he is in some sense a Neighbour would be one\nexplanation.\n\n2. There is in any case something odd about the deal. From a normal\nhuman perspective it is unclear that the deal would be binding; but it\nis also unclear why the deal would be necessary. Would humans have the\nright to chase Neigbours off Blue if they had not given them\npermission to stay? They say 'tonight we give [this whorl] to you'.\nThis doesn't itself seem to be part of the deal; they say it\nunconditionally, and then ask Horn for permission to come back. But\nno one forced them to say it, and if Horn had not been there no one\nwould have known that they had said it. Or they could, as far as one\ncan see, have said 'we give you this whorl on condition that we are\nallowed to visit it from time to time'. That they asked even one\nhuman's permission seems an extra act of grace on their part." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-07T15:06:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nAnother very important example is Mani the cat in The Wizard Knight, an\ntalking cat created by a witch by binding an immortal elemental spirit\nto a cat. Mani and Able have a conversation about what will happen when\nMani dies:\n\n\"Will I really be free when the cat dies? You said something about that\n[snip] That I'll be an elemental once more. '\n'No, you won't.'\n'The elemental will be free, no longer having any share in life. You're\nnot the elemental or the cat. You're both, and the cat will die like\nother cats.'\n'I'd like to think I'm just...the other thing. The thing that talks.'\n'Then I'll cut off your ear and we'll see if it hurts.'\n'You would, wouldn't you?' \"\n[The Wizard HB 307]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am strongly reminded of the stork in _Little, Big_." } ] }, { "message_id": "<89C3B1A33D294A3A97C1F675FF903CAB@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-07T16:38:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CFD5EBE.3060205@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn-\n Not for humans. My assumption here was that the Neighbours have different customs related to such agreements; perhaps they are more communally-minded than humans.\n\nJames Wynn:\n So...the deal-making was farce? The Rajan (who really just Silk after all) will go on to the Whorl and Neighbors will soon discover that their bargain is not worth the paper it wasn't written on?\n\nWho knows? Gene Wolfe didn't write that far. In human legal terms the bargain certainly seems meaningless. It might be interpreted as something humans would find fair though - at least it might be if one of the parties involved is human. If it turned out that Horn was actually some kind of hybrid, I don't think the humans would give his bargain any respect at all.\n\n\n\n Gerry Quinn-\n If your theory is true, he seems to me more like the Manchurian Candidate in this regard!\n\n James Wynn:\n I seem to be having a problem clarifying homoneius. Still, I'll try to get the rest of my response out tonight, and hopefully it will be clearer. Although, I'm sensing that you're reading them only to come up with quick objections and reponses chosen for their supposed wit rather than than insightful understanding. \n\nNot at all. My purpose is to challenge your theory with logical analysis, not satire. And what exactly is your problem with the reference? People are citing with a straight face everything from Erich von Daniken to Gilligan's Island, and building huge castles of conjecture about Greek gods not referenced in the text, and nobody bats an eye! \n\n\n Gerry Quinn-\n He's some kind of mystical figure all right, although I don't recall any incidents from the Gospels in which Jesus lured troops onto minefields, or raised vampires as terror weapons. (Seems more like a bit of old Pas coming out to me.)\n\n James Wynn:\n You read the part where I said \"Not equivalent to Christ as Aslan is\" right? \nI don't see much Pas-like in saving a town from tyranny. \nStill, not everything in the New Testament is \"gentle Jesus meek and mild\".\n\nNo, but it certainly contains no references to actions comparable to those described! As for Gaon, it was NOT saved from tyranny. Its predeccessor city was a tyranny on the Whorl. Gaon became some kind on anarchy on Blue, and Horn left it in the process of converting back to a tyranny. (As for the oher town involved on the war, no doubt they would have their own interpretation of the rights and wrongs.)\n\nAlso, doesn't Duke Rigoglio talk about how Typhon conquered Urth? He says, if I recall correctly, that he took the part of the underdog in a number of battles, and won them. That was the means by which his unbelievably rapid rise to dominion over Urth was achieved. That's *exactly* what Horn does back on Urth. So, I find it quite plausible that there's a piece of Pas in there, coming in by way of Silk's recovering spirit. \n\n\nYour answer to Horn praying to the Outsider is good enough, I agree that that doesn't pose any problems to your theory.\n\nHowever, I thought of another big problem:\nWhen people spirit travel, the entity appearing at the destination is the spirit not the body. Inhumi appear as human, for example. But when Horn travels, he does not have four arms and four legs, or at least if he does everyone is too polite to mention it. Sure, you can talk about homoousios, but surely his spirit should look *somewhat* different from that of a normal human?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<63ADBCD5EFE04B69BFB3F2A5246ED44E@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-07T16:58:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CFE3EDF.9080809@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\" 'My name is Horn.' I offered my hand.\nHe took it, and this time I felt his hand _and remembered it_ . It was\nhard, and seemed to be covered with short, stiff hairs. Beyond that I\nwill not say.\"[oBW HB 272]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Roy-\nI don't see why you attach such importance to that quote. It has nothing \nto\ndo with what happened in the pit. It is a direct reference to what \nSilkhorn\nwrote on page 267, about the first moments after the Neighbor woke Horn \nand\ntold him to get up and come with him:\n\n \" 'Come with me,' he said, and he helped me to stand up, grasping \nboth\nmy hands while lifting me under the arms. I ought to remember how his \nhands\nfelt, I am sure - but I do not. My mind was on other things, perhaps.\n \"He strode off through the trees, then turned to me and took my hand\nagain to make certain that I was following him.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know why you can't see this is an important quote. First of all, \nHORN is up-front about holding information back here. In a first person \nmemoir, that's a _big_ deal. And the scene involves memory...which is \nobviously also significant in a memoir. It's a big, big deal.\n\nEven your reading of the quote is a strange one. But I say, by default \nHORN/Rajan can't or chooses not to remember his Neighborly past. This \nmoment gives him access to those memories although he chooses to reject \nthem." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy's reading makes a lot of sense. He has previously mentioned that he \ndoesn't remember what the neighbour's hands were loike on one occasion, so \nhe mentions them now.\n\nI agree the \"Beyond that I will not say\" part is a bit odd - if he just \nmeans he can't remember more details about the Neighbour, why not just say \nit directly? But I think it is a great leap to go from that oddness to \nanything very specific...\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-07T17:55:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<63ADBCD5EFE04B69BFB3F2A5246ED44E@jill>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn- My purpose is to challenge your theory with logical analysis, not satire. And what \nexactly is your problem with the reference? People are citing with a straight face everything \nfrom Erich von Daniken to Gilligan's Island, and building huge castles of conjecture about Greek \ngods not referenced in the text, and nobody bats an eye! " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHeh! good response Gerry. Provides some insight into your thinking. The \"people\" you mention are \nall me, I'm afraid. I noticed some eyes batting. Didn't you? I hope you weren't offended by the \npop culture references. There is both a light-hearted and more serious aspect to them. \n \nDid you not notice that I was prompted to mention them in response to Ryan's first hand report that \nGene Wolfe's only exposure to Pinocchio was the Disney movie? I think many forget that as Gene Wolfe\nis writing he is not just some cloistered scholar surrounded by musty classics. He is the father (and\ngrandfather) of a medium-sized family and if his wife and children manage to make appearances in his\nstories (I have knowledgeable confirmation that they do), is it so shocking that references to family\nfavorites from pop culture might also creep in?\n \nIf your purpose is to challenge people's theories with logical analysis, it explains a lot. I also get\nthe impression you might be skimming the theories, ignoring the things that make sense to you, ignoring \nthe things you don't understand and jumping right to the parts for which you can make a clever criticism.\nI would hope that a sincere attempt at analysis would involve actually understanding the theory first.\nSuch understanding would involve acknowledging the parts which do make sense to you and asking sincere\nquestions about the parts you don't understand. \"That was good, James, I can see that\". \"James, I don't \nquite get this section, could you explain it to me?\" These are not the sort of posts I can remember seeing \nfrom Gerry Quinn.\n \nAn example in regard to my Father Inire theory: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "....building huge castles of conjecture about Greek gods not referenced in the text." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nBefore making that statement I would expect you to at least once have asked me, \"could you explain\nwhere in the text that part is referenced?\". That's if you really wanted to understand the theory. \nInstead you jump to the conclusion that there is no referencing. My impression of your attitude is that \nif you can't see something on your own, it isn't there.\n \nI will pretend you actually did ask that question about Greek gods and give a thumbnail answer, just for \nfun. I would answer that at the superficial level, Typhon and daughter Scylla are among the most explicitly\nmentioned Greek gods referenced in BotNS, with the understanding that gods and monsters become more difficult \nto distinguish as one goes backward in ancient Greek history. So that is a starting point. Greek mythology\nand genealogy are referenced.\n \nNext I would go to the old Boatman on the Lake of Birds. The visual imagery and association with the dead of\nthat character prompted the original members of this board to refer to him, sometimes without qualification, as\nCharon. Could be an incidental association but if we look into the mythological parentage of Charon we find: \nErebus and Night (Nyx). These are both named characters in BotNS. So Greek mythology and genealogy are again \nreferenced. A secondary launching point.\n \nAnd so on. I've spent 6 years assembling my Father Inire theory and, of course, I'm not going to put it all here.\nBut all my ideas in the theory are referenced from the text just as those two associations are. I am happy to \nanswer any questions about it that people might have. For example, a board member recently asked me how the Erebus \nand Night connection related to Noctua. I consider that a knowledgeable, thoughtful question and I answered in kind.\n \nFor me that's how increasing the understanding of Gene Wolfe's work progresses. Sharing ideas and asking questions.\nBut if the \"logical analysis\" process is what works for you I encourage you to continue, by all means. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<524985.21146.qm@web84108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-07T19:10:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<63ADBCD5EFE04B69BFB3F2A5246ED44E@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One can imagine many simple reasons for a narrator to turn away from a memory. I think this situation arises often in Wolfe, and usually it's something really basic. When the context is more down to Earth, the guessing is easier.\nHere, I sense that Horn feels the shock of recognition. He assures us, lest we feel fear, that the Neighbor's hand was not slimy or scaly, but will not say more. Some possibilities are: (1) the hand is jointed in a complex alien manner that requires closer attention than Horn could give it, and more detail than he wants to put into the narrative (2) the hand is that of an ungulate, showing that the Neighbor is a six-limbed forest deer/goat/whatever (3) the hand is the hand of a man, more or less (4) the hand is his own hand or that of someone he knows (this is Wolfe after all).\nThese look like the basic options to me. I'd choose 2 or 3 but I don't think I can pick between them. Any thoughts?\n\n--- On Tue, 12/7/10, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Dionysus\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, December 7, 2010, 11:58 AM\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\" 'My name is Horn.' I offered my hand.\nHe took it, and this time I felt his hand _and remembered it_ . It was\nhard, and seemed to be covered with short, stiff hairs. Beyond that I\nwill not say.\"[oBW HB 272]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Roy-\nI don't see why you attach such importance to that quote. It has nothing to\ndo with what happened in the pit. It is a direct reference to what Silkhorn\nwrote on page 267, about the first moments after the Neighbor woke Horn and\ntold him to get up and come with him:\n\n? ? ? \" 'Come with me,' he said, and he helped me to stand up, grasping both\nmy hands while lifting me under the arms. I ought to remember how his hands\nfelt, I am sure - but I do not. My mind was on other things, perhaps.\n? ? ? \"He strode off through the trees, then turned to me and took my hand\nagain to make certain that I was following him.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know why you can't see this is an important quote. First of all, HORN is up-front about holding information back here. In a first person memoir, that's a _big_ deal. And the scene involves memory...which is obviously also significant in a memoir. It's a big, big deal.\n\nEven your reading of the quote is a strange one. But I say, by default HORN/Rajan can't or chooses not to remember his Neighborly past. This moment gives him access to those memories although he chooses to reject them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy's reading makes a lot of sense. He has previously mentioned that he doesn't remember what the neighbour's hands were loike on one occasion, so he mentions them now.\n\nI agree the \"Beyond that I will not say\" part is a bit odd - if he just means he can't remember more details about the Neighbour, why not just say it directly? But I think it is a great leap to go from that oddness to anything very specific...\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4796709EEEC54B62A2718FC89143477F@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-07T22:35:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nGerry Quinn- My purpose is to challenge your theory with logical analysis, \nnot satire. And what\nexactly is your problem with the reference? People are citing with a \nstraight face everything\nfrom Erich von Daniken to Gilligan's Island, and building huge castles of \nconjecture about Greek\ngods not referenced in the text, and nobody bats an eye!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heh! good response Gerry. Provides some insight into your thinking. The \n\"people\" you mention are\nall me, I'm afraid. I noticed some eyes batting. Didn't you? I hope you \nweren't offended by the\npop culture references. There is both a light-hearted and more serious \naspect to them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Note that I was arguing against a theory postulated by James, not you. \nAgain, I wasn't having a dig at you, but yes, you do produce produce \nelaborate theories and justify them largely on the basis of ideas and \nconcepts that are not mentioned anywhere in the text. My issue is with the \nform of argument, not the person." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If your purpose is to challenge people's theories with logical analysis, \nit explains a lot. I also get\nthe impression you might be skimming the theories, ignoring the things \nthat make sense to you, ignoring\nthe things you don't understand and jumping right to the parts for which \nyou can make a clever criticism.\nI would hope that a sincere attempt at analysis would involve actually \nunderstanding the theory first.\nSuch understanding would involve acknowledging the parts which do make \nsense to you and asking sincere\nquestions about the parts you don't understand. \"That was good, James, I \ncan see that\". \"James, I don't\nquite get this section, could you explain it to me?\" These are not the \nsort of posts I can remember seeing\nfrom Gerry Quinn." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm sorry if I don't provide sufficient encouragement. I *do* read your \nposts and endeavour to understand what you are getting at. However I am not \ngoing to get into a rambling debate about what some obscure god was once \nassociated with and how this might link to something different in the text, \nif I can see major issues with what appear to be major planks in the basic \nargument.. For example, I consider the argument: \"An alien has been shown \nto be a shapeshifter; Fr. Inire is an alien; Therefore Fr. inire is a \nshapeshifter\" to be invalid. Do you see why?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "An example in regard to my Father Inire theory:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "....building huge castles of conjecture about Greek gods not referenced in \nthe text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Before making that statement I would expect you to at least once have \nasked me, \"could you explain\nwhere in the text that part is referenced?\". That's if you really wanted \nto understand the theory.\nInstead you jump to the conclusion that there is no referencing. My \nimpression of your attitude is that\nif you can't see something on your own, it isn't there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, where is Dionysius referenced? That's the one I was thinking of. It \nseems to me that the strands linking Dionysius to the outsider are very thin \nindeed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I will pretend you actually did ask that question about Greek gods and \ngive a thumbnail answer, just for\nfun. I would answer that at the superficial level, Typhon and daughter \nScylla are among the most explicitly\nmentioned Greek gods referenced in BotNS, with the understanding that gods \nand monsters become more difficult\nto distinguish as one goes backward in ancient Greek history. So that is a \nstarting point. Greek mythology\nand genealogy are referenced." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No real reference to gods there IMO. Of course Wolfe brings in references \nfrom Greek mythology, but plenty of other mythologies too. If there \n*weren't* a few Greek mythological references in there somewhere, it would \nbe surprising." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Next I would go to the old Boatman on the Lake of Birds. The visual \nimagery and association with the dead of\nthat character prompted the original members of this board to refer to \nhim, sometimes without qualification, as\nCharon. Could be an incidental association but if we look into the \nmythological parentage of Charon we find: >\nErebus and Night (Nyx). These are both named characters in BotNS. So Greek \nmythology and genealogy are again\nreferenced. A secondary launching point." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you are satisfied with weak enough connections you can find launching \npoints everywhere. I find the above connection extremely weak." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And so on. I've spent 6 years assembling my Father Inire theory and, of \ncourse, I'm not going to put it all here.\nBut all my ideas in the theory are referenced from the text just as those \ntwo associations are. I am happy to\nanswer any questions about it that people might have. For example, a board \nmember recently asked me how the Erebus\nand Night connection related to Noctua. I consider that a knowledgeable, \nthoughtful question and I answered in kind.\n\nFor me that's how increasing the understanding of Gene Wolfe's work \nprogresses. Sharing ideas and asking questions.\nBut if the \"logical analysis\" process is what works for you I encourage \nyou to continue, by all means." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you accept that ideas can be wrong, or at least useful only to those for \nwhom they constitute a kind of private mythology? In the physical sciences \nof course, we can test the predictive value of ideas, which is difficult in \na literary work. Nevertheless, surely there must be some winnowing, and \nsome applicable criteria for doing it? I will post more on this in response \nto another post of yours, which comes closer to the root of this issue.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFEC8DB.9090603@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-07T23:52:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4796709EEEC54B62A2718FC89143477F@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn-\nOkay, where is Dionysius referenced? That's the one I was thinking \nof. It seems to me that the strands linking Dionysius to the outsider \nare very thin indeed. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Um....the \"son of Thyone\", is discussed or referenced at least four \ntimes in Return to the Whorl. That's a big deal being made of the child \nof an extremely minor goddess. The way the child is described makes me \nthink it is somehow referencing Silk...and Silk is the prophet of the \nOutsider.\n\nAdditionally, I have argued that the very word \"inhuma\" was chosen for \nits association with Dionysus, the god of the vine. There are \nundeniable, although unexplained, associations between the inhumi and \nvines. And Quetzal mimics Dionysus's deeds.\n\nSee the problem is something I see in my professional work all the time. \nSome people think things are unimportant or easily done...that is, they \nare contemptuous toward them...when/because they know very little about \nthem. They lack the ability to be impressed by anything not easily \nwithin their own grasp.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFEF36A.1020501@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-08T02:54:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CFEC8DB.9090603@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn-\nOkay, where is Dionysius referenced? That's the one I was thinking \nof. It seems to me that the strands linking Dionysius to the outsider \nare very thin indeed. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Um....the \"son of Thyone\", is discussed or referenced at least four \ntimes in Return to the Whorl. That's a big deal being made of the \nchild of an extremely minor goddess. The way the child is described \nmakes me think it is somehow referencing Silk...and Silk is the \nprophet of the Outsider.\n\nAdditionally, I have argued that the very word \"inhuma\" was chosen for \nits association with Dionysus, the god of the vine. There are \nundeniable, although unexplained, associations between the inhumi and \nvines. And Quetzal mimics Dionysus's deeds.\n\nSee the problem is something I see in my professional work all the \ntime. Some people think things are unimportant or easily done...that \nis, they are contemptuous toward them...when/because they know very \nlittle about them. They lack the ability to be impressed by anything \nnot easily within their own grasp.\n\nu+16b9" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just remembered that Lee had connected \"Silver Silk\" and \"Silent Silk\" \nwith Silvanus and Silenus. Silvanus was considered equivalent to Silenus \nwho was the tutor and companion to Dionysus. Silenus makes an appearance \nin Soldier of the Mist.\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<18B884BEF2F3446EAA2A35CD31A4237B@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-08T03:37:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CFEC8DB.9090603@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \nGerry Quinn-" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Okay, where is Dionysius referenced? That's the one I was thinking of. \nIt seems to me that the strands linking Dionysius to the outsider are \nvery thin indeed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Um....the \"son of Thyone\", is discussed or referenced at least four times \nin Return to the Whorl. That's a big deal being made of the child of an \nextremely minor goddess. The way the child is described makes me think it \nis somehow referencing Silk...and Silk is the prophet of the Outsider." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, I've looked up those passages. Yes, Dionysius is referenced as the \nson of Thyone. In fact, Horn/Silk accepts as plausible Hound's proposition \nthat Dionysius may possibly be the same as the Outsider. The Outsider \nhimself - not Silk.\n\n \"Then what I was going to ask about is pretty silly. I was going to ask \nif it isn't possible they're really the same.\"\n\n The man lying on the floor said nothing.\n\n \"Since we don't know the names. That the Outsider is Thyone's son, the \nwine god, too.\"\n\n\nThis may be just a reference to the normal process in which myths mutate and \naspects of ancient gods become aspects of newer ones, though. It's \nreasonable to believe that some elements of Dionysius appear in Christ, whom \nI identify with the Outsider. Certainly a couple of symbols - wine, \nresurrection - appear, though I don't believe their significance is the \nsame.\n\nBut it's a far cry from this academic analysis of gods to ascribe major \nsignificance to ut and to draw conclusions based on possible symbols of \nDionysius. Because every god has a million symbols." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Additionally, I have argued that the very word \"inhuma\" was chosen for its \nassociation with Dionysus, the god of the vine. There are undeniable, \nalthough unexplained, associations between the inhumi and vines. And \nQuetzal mimics Dionysus's deeds." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If the inhumi are associated with vines, those are the lianas on Green, \nwhich as far as I know do not yield grapes. 'Vine' is a name for any \ntraiuling or climbing plant - not every vine is a grape vine. To my mind \nthis is no connection." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "See the problem is something I see in my professional work all the time. \nSome people think things are unimportant or easily done...that is, they \nare contemptuous toward them...when/because they know very little about \nthem. They lack the ability to be impressed by anything not easily within \ntheir own grasp." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does your professional work involve literary criticism? Because if it does \nnot, the strength of that argument is less than you suppose, and its import \nmay be considerably different from what you intend. Ideas *are* easy. \nRigorously worked out ideas that can stand up to criticism are not. I am \nimpressed only by arguments that can stand the heat of critical analysis.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-08T08:43:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<18B884BEF2F3446EAA2A35CD31A4237B@jill>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn- Note that I was arguing against a theory postulated by James, not you...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSure, I am not speaking for James. But elements in your argument with him pertain to our discussion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I *do* read your posts and endeavour to understand what you are getting at. However I am not \ngoing to get into a rambling debate about what some obscure god was once associated with.." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nInstead you prefer to pare ideas down to what you consider bare essentials and argue simply \nand briefly. But the process of paring renders the ideas being discussed into unrecognizable shapes \nwhich are no longer my ideas. They become yours. Thus you are arguing with yourself. Small wonder \nthat you win every time ;- )." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I consider the argument: \"An alien has been shown to be a shapeshifter; Fr. Inire is an alien; \nTherefore Fr. inire is a shapeshifter\" to be invalid. Do you see why?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, I do. This is a good example of winning an argument with yourself. First, yikes! shades of\nMonty Python! It is a false assumption that every post on this board represents somebody who is \nlooking for an argument. Also I think many of us are at a stage of understanding this complex piece \nof literature which cannot be advanced by simple addition of evidence and if/then statements.\n \nIn your statement above you have the wrong starting point (Tzadkiel). The starting point for this\ndiscussion is Robert Borski saying \"I notice a number of characters who seem to echo the descriptions\nof Father Inire.\" It continues with others, like me and Ryan, who say, \"I see that too and I see some\nother likewise characters. That's a problem or puzzle worth thinking about.\"\n \nHopefully you can see why this, so far, is not an invitation to argue and invalidate. When you do, you\nare essentially saying, \"You don't see that\". \"That is not a problem or puzzle for you\". \"That is not \nworth thinking about\". Doing that, you are not using logic you are invalidating a person. \n \nMoving on, Borksi or Ryan or I might propose a solution or pattern or way of thinking which solves the\npuzzle for us or helps overcome the cognitive distress. Again this should not be taken as an open \ninvitation to argue. You invalidate a person by telling them, \"No that's not a solution to your \nproblem/puzzle.\" when they have just told you that it is.\n \nI will suggest that our purpose here should be to help each other. Invalidating each other as people is\nnot helpful to anyone as far as I can tell. If you feel the need to criticize, be sure it is *constructive\ncriticism*. If you feel the need to tear down someone's puzzle solution or any part of it, you should have \na better solution *immediately* available so that the building process is sustained. If all we have is\ndemolition and destructive criticism, what will be the result?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do you accept that ideas can be wrong, or at least useful only to those for whom they constitute a kind \nof private mythology?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nTwelve years ago, this board was still wrestling with puzzles and problems which were of universal interest\nand could be solved with simple Sherlockian detective work and logic and thus subject to being proved wrong.\nNow, it seems everyone, even newbies, knows that Commonwealth people have Saint names, that the geography, \nflora and fauna of the Commonwealth is S. American, that Yesod and Briah are Kabbalah terms etc. I think there \nis still a great utility in fact-checking each other, but the vast bulk of conversation has moved beyond that.\n \nThese days, I think everyone is wrestling with different problems. Thus if we have 50 participants here we are,\nin fact, dealing with 50 private mythologies. Let's respect that. I enjoy wrestling with the Father Inire\npuzzle and enjoy conversing with others who feel the same. Others are wrestling with the issue of whether\ncertain sections are in the narrator's or Gene WOlfe's voice. This is not an area of interest for me so I \npolitely opt out of the conversation. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-08T09:15:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: the \"son of Thyone\", is discussed or referenced at least four times in Return \nto the Whorl. That's a big deal being made of the child of an extremely minor goddess." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn- Okay, I've looked up those passages. Yes, Dionysius is referenced as the \nson of Thyone. In fact, Horn/Silk accepts as plausible Hound's proposition that Dionysius \nmay possibly be the same as the Outsider.....This may be just a reference to the normal \nprocess in which myths mutate and aspects of ancient gods become aspects of newer ones" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nGene Wolfe has referenced the process of the origin of myth through the course of his entire\nbody of work. Are you suggesting he is just a hack who does nothing but pound us over the \nhead with simple, trite concepts over and over? Many here think he is a profoundly complex \nauthor for whom unique meaning can be found in every passage of every book.\n \nJust as a starter I'll suggest consideration of the principle David Stockhoff mentioned, \n\"book as universe; author as god\". Wolfe doesn't just reference the origin of myth, he\nuses it, mythologizing his own work and even his own life. This adds layers of hidden \nmeaning which cannot be discerned by perfunctory reading or interpretation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...But it's a far cry from this academic analysis of gods to ascribe major \nsignificance to ut and to draw conclusions based on possible symbols of \nDionysius. Because every god has a million symbols." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNo they don't. Every god has a much smaller number of symbols. It takes time and effort to\nmentally collect and catalog them for a particular god, but it can be done. I don't think \nyou can fully understand Gene Wolfe's work without that process. And never more true than \nfor Dionysus, perhaps the most complex god in history." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ideas *are* easy. Rigorously worked out ideas that can stand up to criticism are not. I am \nimpressed only by arguments that can stand the heat of critical analysis." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nGood point. On the other hand critical analysis is also easy compared to coming up with a \nrigorously worked out idea. Gerry, can we have some of your rigorously worked out ideas to\nanalyze? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFF7123.6040904@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-08T11:50:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<18B884BEF2F3446EAA2A35CD31A4237B@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn-\nIf the inhumi are associated with vines, those are the lianas on \nGreen, which as far as I know do not yield grapes. 'Vine' is a name \nfor any traiuling or climbing plant - not every vine is a grape vine. \nTo my mind this is no connection." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[roll eyes] Right. And the word \"vine\" is the only association to \nDionysus in the book right? That's the only thing I've used to draw a \nconnection to the inhumi and Dionysus, right? I just picked \"vine\" out \nof the text and said \"Aha! Dionysus!\" It's this kind of response that \nmakes me think that most important thing to you is Winning the \nArgument. Dionysus is called the God of Vine, literally. I know of no \nplace where he is called the God of the Grape Vine. The Roman historian, \nTacitus, noted that some people had associated the God of the Temple in \nJerusalem to Dionysus. Why? Primarily, because there was a gold-leaf \nvine adorning the Temple." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does your professional work involve literary criticism? Because if it \ndoes not, the strength of that argument is less than you suppose, and \nits import may be considerably different from what you intend. Ideas \n*are* easy. Rigorously worked out ideas that can stand up to criticism \nare not. I am impressed only by arguments that can stand the heat of \ncritical analysis." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No idea can stand up to contempt in the mind of the scoffer. It does no \ngood to come up with rigorously worked out ideas, if the hearer refuses \nto inform himself of the required foundations to understand the rigor of \nthe ideas. You have to be willing to be convinced if possible.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFF8CF2.4040903@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-08T13:49:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here's the main problem I see with this logic. \"Aliens\" are by \ndefinition multimorphic: they come from a near infinity of planets. That \nis their attraction.\n\nEven the three species we know from BOTNS, Hieros, Hierodules, and \nHierogrammates, are almost too many for me to keep separate, and there \nare many, many others. Some may have no apparent known shapes, like \nErebus (although there are allusions); some can change shape, some, like \nalzabos, change shape in a different way.\n\nIt's true that demons, broadly speaking, are generally able to shift \nshapes, but to say that all aliens are shapeshifters is like saying Odin \nhas one eye, therefore Thor has one eye. It not only doesn't make \nsense---it demolishes the whole idea of gods as recognizable, \ndistinguishable entities. The very idea of a pantheon would be \ndestroyed. The gods would be like Titans, generic and almost \nindistinguishable.\n\nGranted, Wolfe plays with this too; he has characters that are a kind of \nshapeshifter: the inhumi. How can a mutable nonperson be a person?\n\nBut this reinforces my point. Inhumi are obviously a special case that \nunfolds over several novels. Inire is not, and any logic that requires \nhim to be a shapeshifter requires all aliens to be shapeshifters. First, \nthis is demonstrably not the case; second, this knowledge is useless \nwithout knowing HOW he is a shapeshifter.\n\nIf Inire is fundamentally monkeylike, OTOH, then it is a simple thing to \nsay, Sometimes he can look more monkeylike than other times; sometimes \nhe can look more manlike than others. The text can support this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/8/2010 3:43 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI consider the argument: \"An alien has been shown to be a shapeshifter; Fr. Inire is an alien;" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Therefore Fr. inire is a shapeshifter\" to be invalid. Do you see why?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFFA86D.2060604@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-08T15:46:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (08-12-2010 08:43):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn-\nI consider the argument: \"An alien has been shown to be a shapeshifter;" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Fr. Inire is an alien; Therefore Fr. inire is a shapeshifter\" to be\ninvalid. Do you see why?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, I do. This is a good example of winning an argument with yourself.\nFirst, yikes! shades of Monty Python! It is a false assumption that every\npost on this board represents somebody who is looking for an argument." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'Argument' has a number of meanings in english. One of them, and clearly the\none intended here, is 'reasoning'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Moving on, Borksi or Ryan or I might propose a solution or pattern or way\nof thinking which solves the puzzle for us or helps overcome the\ncognitive distress. Again this should not be taken as an open invitation\nto argue. You invalidate a person by telling them, \"No that's not a\nsolution to your problem/puzzle.\" when they have just told you that it\nis." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So what exactly do you expect from others? They're welcome to help you lay\nbricks, but not to point out that you're building over quicksand or that\nyour mortar doesn't hold?\n\nI can't believe any of you are unfamiliar with the importance of \nfalsifiability. Falsifiability here is the difference between your \ntheories/solutions/patterns being about Gene Wolfe's work, and their being \nabout yourselves.\n\nI also don't think that your way of reasoning here is similar to either \nBorski's or Ryan's, so why bring them in?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-08T16:35:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CFFA86D.2060604@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/8/2010 3:43 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI consider the argument: \"An alien has been shown to be a shapeshifter; Fr. Inire is an alien;" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Therefore Fr. inire is a shapeshifter\" to be invalid. Do you see why?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nArgh, my worst nightmare realized! Bad enough to see Gerry hack, shrivel and distort my Inire theory\ndown to one sentence in a reductio ad absurdum attemtpt. Now his shrunken troll of misrepresentation is \nattributed in quotes to me. Horrors!\n \nJ/K David, its all in good fun.\n \nStill, I think it is worth noting that nobody here would make the above argument or your Odin/Thor argument, \nexcept as strawman strategy to build then knock down\n\n \nShapeshifting is an interesting but not central componenent of my Father Inire theory. Ancient Greek gods did\nit so maybe that was a model. But the theory could instead rely on something like Pan's ability to create a \nlegion of copies of himself to do his deeds. I think the monkey-stuff is a deliberate misdirection on the Pan \nconnection. If Wolfe had made Inire to look goat-like, and had various goat-like characters appearing in the\ntext would anyone, even Gerrry, have serious doubts about a Pan connection? So instead Wolfe uses several \nlevels of concealment: Faunus->Inuus->monkey.\n \nBut it doesn't really matter. That is window-dressing. The theory don't really need the mythological \ncomponent because there is a relevant, observable theme in the main text.\n\n \nIt starts when Severian realizes the whoremaster is really the Autarch. Later he learns that the Autarch is \nalso the third bursar and several other roles within The Commonwealth. Theme- leaders take on multiple roles\nwithin their domain. Since nobody got this, Wolfe illustrated the principle in more elaborate, colorful\nfashion with Tzadkiel. He is Ship Captain. But he is also apport, grunt, sailor, etc.\n \nThe entire Commonwealth recognizes the Autarch as the ruler. He sits on a throne. He knows the Secret Words. \nHis face is on the coins and common folk pepper their speech with silly veneration for him, elevating even his \nsweat and urine. Even Father Inire showers Severian with really extensive, divine praise in the introduction of \nhis note.\n \nBut, with remembrance that goat god Pan/Dionysus has been conflated by Christianity with Satan, we must\nkeep in mind his role as the Great Deceiver, the silver-tongued devil. Gene Wolfe's voice in now in my head and \n(with sincere apologies) I find I must speak in his voice:\n \n \n\"Stop Being Deceived! The clues are all in the text. Father Inire is the true 1000 year ruler of the Commonwealth.\"\n \n \nHis faux religious name and status as humble vizier should send up red flags. He is Rasputin. He is Cardinal\nRichelieu. He is the true power behind the throne and the Autarch is merely a replacable a person drawn from the\npopulace as needed. (Q.Why is it that only Cyriaca, not even Thecla, is able to realize this. A. Who was her \nunnamed, rare book-loving uncle who taught her the secret history of the universe?). \n \nWe, like Severian, are very impressed with the coolness of the legion of memories. But it is a just a bauble. \nThe memories fade and are mostly of butlers and scullery maids and honey stewards. As we see in UotNS, the memories \neven of the previous autarch are of minimal use. \n \nIn Urth, Severian claims Father Inire was his only friend when he was Autarch. What happened to Drotte and Roche and \nother possibilities like Guasacht? What about Valeria? I think a puppet master is aware of the benefits of cutting all \nstrings but his own.\n \nAs the true ruler of the Commonwealth, even without seeing the little old man/monkeys here and there, we should \nEXPECT to see various versions of Inire in various roles, based on the example given to us by The Autarch and\nTzadkiel. As an alien with superhuman powers we can expect him to be much better at it than the Autuarch, though\nnot quite as good as Tzadkiel. And, in my opinion, that is exactly what we \"see\".\n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<692916.16745.qm@web84102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-08T19:35:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I completely agree with this. Inire has many roles, and as you say, he is not the only one to do so, by far.\nAnd yes, he is the true, let's say, \"controller\" of the Commonwealth, whether he has lived 1000 years or not.\nAnd the very presence of his absence is a clue to his off-stage importance, as I have argued.\nAnd he is not a shapeshifter.\nWhy, Lee, I've never seen you summarize your theory so succinctly and directly! ;)\n\n--- On Wed, 12/8/10, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nFrom: Lee Berman \nSubject: (urth) Dionysus\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Wednesday, December 8, 2010, 11:35 AM\n\n\n\nDavid Stockhoff: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/8/2010 3:43 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI consider the argument: \"An alien has been shown to be a shapeshifter; Fr. Inire is an alien;" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Therefore Fr. inire is a shapeshifter\" to be invalid. Do you see why?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nArgh, my worst nightmare realized! Bad enough to see Gerry hack, shrivel and distort my Inire theory\ndown to one sentence in a reductio ad absurdum attemtpt. Now his shrunken troll of misrepresentation is \nattributed in quotes to me. Horrors!\n \nJ/K David, its all in good fun.\n \nStill, I think it is worth noting that nobody here would make the above argument or your Odin/Thor argument, \nexcept as strawman strategy to build then knock down\n\n \nShapeshifting is an interesting but not central componenent of my Father Inire theory. Ancient Greek gods did\nit so maybe that was a model. But the theory could instead rely on something like Pan's ability to create a \nlegion of copies of himself to do his deeds. I think the monkey-stuff is a deliberate misdirection on the Pan \nconnection. If Wolfe had made Inire to look goat-like, and had various goat-like characters appearing in the\ntext would anyone, even Gerrry, have serious doubts about a Pan connection? So instead Wolfe uses several \nlevels of concealment: Faunus->Inuus->monkey.\n \nBut it doesn't really matter. That is window-dressing. The theory don't really need the mythological \ncomponent because there is a relevant, observable theme in the main text.\n\n \nIt starts when Severian realizes the whoremaster is really the Autarch. Later he learns that the Autarch is \nalso the third bursar and several other roles within The Commonwealth. Theme- leaders take on multiple roles\nwithin their domain. Since nobody got this, Wolfe illustrated the principle in more elaborate, colorful\nfashion with Tzadkiel. He is Ship Captain. But he is also apport, grunt, sailor, etc.\n \nThe entire Commonwealth recognizes the Autarch as the ruler. He sits on a throne. He knows the Secret Words. \nHis face is on the coins and common folk pepper their speech with silly veneration for him, elevating even his \nsweat and urine. Even Father Inire showers Severian with really extensive, divine praise in the introduction of \nhis note.\n \nBut, with remembrance that goat god Pan/Dionysus has been conflated by Christianity with Satan, we must\nkeep in mind his role as the Great Deceiver, the silver-tongued devil. Gene Wolfe's voice in now in my head and \n(with sincere apologies) I find I must speak in his voice:\n \n \n\"Stop Being Deceived! The clues are all in the text. Father Inire is the true 1000 year ruler of the Commonwealth.\"\n \n \nHis faux religious name and status as humble vizier should send up red flags. He is Rasputin. He is Cardinal\nRichelieu. He is the true power behind the throne and the Autarch is merely a replacable a person drawn from the\npopulace as needed. (Q.Why is it that only Cyriaca, not even Thecla, is able to realize this. A. Who was her \nunnamed, rare book-loving uncle who taught her the secret history of the universe?). \n \nWe, like Severian, are very impressed with the coolness of the legion of memories. But it is a just a bauble. \nThe memories fade and are mostly of butlers and scullery maids and honey stewards. As we see in UotNS, the memories \neven of the previous autarch are of minimal use. \n \nIn Urth, Severian claims Father Inire was his only friend when he was Autarch. What happened to Drotte and Roche and \nother possibilities like Guasacht? What about Valeria? I think a puppet master is aware of the benefits of cutting all \nstrings but his own.\n \nAs the true ruler of the Commonwealth, even without seeing the little old man/monkeys here and there, we should \nEXPECT to see various versions of Inire in various roles, based on the example given to us by The Autarch and\nTzadkiel. As an alien with superhuman powers we can expect him to be much better at it than the Autuarch, though\nnot quite as good as Tzadkiel. And, in my opinion, that is exactly what we \"see\".\n \n? ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ? " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-08T19:43:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<692916.16745.qm@web84102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote: ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Moving on, Borksi or Ryan or I might propose a solution or pattern or way of thinking which solves the\npuzzle for us or helps overcome the cognitive distress. Again this should not be taken as an open\ninvitation to argue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But once ideas have been put out in public, they are a legitimate\nsubject of argument. You may not find criticism of your ideas\nhelpful, if they efectively solve, for you, the problems you find\ntroubling, but you aren't the only audience for my responses. It's\nreasonable that others, who are trying to make their mind up about\nwhat is happening, should consider both your ideas, with the reasons\nthat support them, and also the problems that they raise. Is Inire a\nshapeshifter? Well, there are some things that it would help to\nexplain if he were; on the other hand, the ways in which we know he\ndisgusies himself suggest that he is not. Is Inire Severian's\ngrandfather? There are some similarities between them; on the other\nhand, there is a passage in the books which directly addresses\nhuman/alien breeding, and suggests that while he might be someone's\nfather, he couldn't be someone's grandfather. And so on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I will suggest that our purpose here should be to help each other. Invalidating each other as people is\nnot helpful to anyone as far as I can tell. If you feel the need to criticize, be sure it is *constructive\ncriticism*. If you feel the need to tear down someone's puzzle solution or any part of it, you should have\na better solution *immediately* available so that the building process is sustained. If all we have is\ndemolition and destructive criticism, what will be the result?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That seems to me a very limited idea of constructive criticism. If we\nare to move forward in understanding the works, we should look at the\nideas people have come up with, but we should also look at the\nproblems that they raise. Considering those problems may help us come\nup with better ideas and move towards more effective solutions. To\ndemand that people must have a better solution already worked out\nbefore they make any criticisms halts this process. And in any case,\nif I entered the debate with 'here is my brilliant solution', I would\nfeel immensely arrogant. Pointing to a problem, which you may be able\nto overcome, and in any case might spur others to come up with ideas,\nstrikes me as actually more cooperative and more of a real\ncontribution to discussion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Twelve years ago, this board was still wrestling with puzzles and problems which were of universal interest\nand could be solved with simple Sherlockian detective work and logic and thus subject to being proved wrong.\nNow, it seems everyone, even newbies, knows that Commonwealth people have Saint names, that the geography,\nflora and fauna of the Commonwealth is S. American, that Yesod and Briah are Kabbalah terms etc. I think there\nis still a great utility in fact-checking each other, but the vast bulk of conversation has moved beyond that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, there are new people coming in, who are still interested in the\nbasic questions. But beyond that, I think there is probably still\nmaterial, to be solved by Sherlockian means, that no one has worked\nout yet. We know that Wolfe overestimates his readers' intelligence.\nHe puts things in which he thinks we should be able to work out, but\nwe don't. (It was just recently revealed that a character in one of\nhis stories is called Mary Christmas; he expected people to get that;\nfrom the reaction on the list, it seems no one had.) I suspect, for\ninstance, that we are meant to be able to work out the names of many\nof the major nameless characters in _New Sun_, and to determine more\nof Severian's family tree than we have so far established with any\ncertainty. While this is so, addressing the issues in a puzzle-solving\nspirit still seems profitable." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-08T19:47:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jsmes Wynn wrote: .\n\nDionysus is called the God of Vine, literally. I know of no" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "place where he is called the God of the Grape Vine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Historically, 'vine' means grape vine. Its use to mean any climbing\nplant is quite recent. That is why Dionysus is called God of the Vine.\n\nOn the other hand, he is also associated with ivy, so a link with\nclimbing plants more generally is not ruled out." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFFF7A1.500@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-08T21:24:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andrew Mason wrote (08-12-2010 19:43):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But beyond that, I think there is probably still\nmaterial, to be solved by Sherlockian means, that no one has worked\nout yet. We know that Wolfe overestimates his readers' intelligence.\nHe puts things in which he thinks we should be able to work out, but\nwe don't." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh. Found this just yesterday:\n\n\"Even when he introduces someone else’s short story, he creates mystery ? \nI’ve been trying for years to understand his hints as to the true meaning of \nAvram Davidson’s ?Polly Charms, the Sleeping Woman, a tale that’s oblique \nenough in itself.\"\n\nhttp://crookedtimber.org/2004/06/15/gene-wolfe-steals-my-fudgsicle/" } ] }, { "message_id": "<946399.12344.qm@web84103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-08T21:37:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But let's not confuse vines with lianas!\n\n--- On Wed, 12/8/10, Andrew Mason wrote:\n\nFrom: Andrew Mason \nSubject: (urth) Dionysus\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Wednesday, December 8, 2010, 2:47 PM\n\nJsmes Wynn wrote: .\n\nDionysus is called the God of Vine, literally. I know of no" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "place where he is called the God of the Grape Vine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Historically, 'vine' means grape vine. Its use to mean any climbing\nplant is quite recent. That is why Dionysus is called God of the Vine.\n\nOn the other hand, he is also associated with ivy, so a link with\nclimbing plants more generally is not ruled out." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D00160F.7020109@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-08T23:34:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nDionysus is called the God of Vine, literally. I know of no place where he is called the God of the Grape Vine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason-\nHistorically, 'vine' means grape vine. Its use to mean any climbing\nplant is quite recent. That is why Dionysus is called God of the Vine.\nOn the other hand, he is also associated with ivy, so a link with\nclimbing plants more generally is not ruled out." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So...we agree that he's is the god of the \"vine\", not just grape vines.\nI do not believe specific species of vines mattered to Wolfe for this \nassociation one little bit. Dionysus was the God of the Vine. Inhumi \nwere, are, or become vines on Blue as well as Green in some way no one \nbut Wolfe seems to understand. Done. When the Sileni drank wine they \nbelieved they were possessed by a spirit of that wine. When inhuma drink \nblood their children are possessed by the spirit of the person who gave \nthe blood. The word inhuma comes from a word association between the \nbird and the designations for Dionysus. Quetzal performs many of the \ndeeds from Dionysus's life.\n\nThe Outsider is associated with Dionysus in the novel. Silk is \nassociated both with Dionysus (since it is said by some that the \"son of \nThyone\" is the son of Pas), and he is associated with followers of \nDionysus (multiple instances).\n\nI'm glad we cleared that up.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D001797.7000002@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-08T23:41:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4D00160F.7020109@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What about his association with a certain Rush album from the 1970s?\n\nIs Wolfe a Rush fan?\n\nI think we need to explore all possible angles." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/8/2010 6:34 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nDionysus is called the God of Vine, literally. I know of no place \nwhere he is called the God of the Grape Vine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Andrew Mason-\nHistorically, 'vine' means grape vine. Its use to mean any climbing\nplant is quite recent. That is why Dionysus is called God of the Vine.\nOn the other hand, he is also associated with ivy, so a link with\nclimbing plants more generally is not ruled out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So...we agree that he's is the god of the \"vine\", not just grape vines.\nI do not believe specific species of vines mattered to Wolfe for this \nassociation one little bit. Dionysus was the God of the Vine. Inhumi \nwere, are, or become vines on Blue as well as Green in some way no one \nbut Wolfe seems to understand. Done. When the Sileni drank wine they \nbelieved they were possessed by a spirit of that wine. When inhuma \ndrink blood their children are possessed by the spirit of the person \nwho gave the blood. The word inhuma comes from a word association \nbetween the bird and the designations for Dionysus. Quetzal performs \nmany of the deeds from Dionysus's life.\n\nThe Outsider is associated with Dionysus in the novel. Silk is \nassociated both with Dionysus (since it is said by some that the \"son \nof Thyone\" is the son of Pas), and he is associated with followers of \nDionysus (multiple instances).\n\nI'm glad we cleared that up.\n\nu+16b9\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<350898.16489.qm@web81405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2010-12-09T00:36:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4D001797.7000002@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe a Rush fan??????That's the funniest thing I've heard all day!!!!!\n\n???????? ? ? \n?Mobile — (415) 786-3624\nSTUHAMM.COM\nFACEBOOK/STUARTHAMM\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\nSkype? stuart.hamm\n? ?? \n\n\n--- On Wed, 12/8/10, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nSubject: Re: (urth) Dionysus\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, December 8, 2010, 3:41 PM\n\nWhat about his association with a certain Rush album from the 1970s?\n\nIs Wolfe a Rush fan?\n\nI think we need to explore all possible angles." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/8/2010 6:34 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nDionysus is called the God of Vine, literally. I know of no place where he is called the God of the Grape Vine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Andrew Mason-\nHistorically, 'vine' means grape vine. Its use to mean any climbing\nplant is quite recent. That is why Dionysus is called God of the Vine.\nOn the other hand, he is also associated with ivy, so a link with\nclimbing plants more generally is not ruled out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So...we agree that he's is the god of the \"vine\", not just grape vines.\nI do not believe specific species of vines mattered to Wolfe for this association one little bit. Dionysus was the God of the Vine. Inhumi were, are, or become vines on Blue as well as Green in some way no one but Wolfe seems to understand. Done. When the Sileni drank wine they believed they were possessed by a spirit of that wine. When inhuma drink blood their children are possessed by the spirit of the person who gave the blood. The word inhuma comes from a word association between the bird and the designations for Dionysus. Quetzal performs many of the deeds from Dionysus's life.\n\nThe Outsider is associated with Dionysus in the novel. Silk is associated both with Dionysus (since it is said by some that the \"son of Thyone\" is the son of Pas), and he is associated with followers of Dionysus (multiple instances).\n\nI'm glad we cleared that up.\n\nu+16b9\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-09T00:59:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<350898.16489.qm@web81405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason: But once ideas have been put out in public, they are a legitimate subject of \nargument. You may not find criticism of your ideas helpful, if they efectively solve, for \nyou, the problems you find troubling, but you aren't the only audience for my responses." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAndrew I can't remember a problem I've had with your responses to my posts. You've always seemed\nrespectful and constructive. Still, your thoughtful post deserves an honest answer so I will do\nmy best, though you might not like it.\n \nSome Wolfe readers may resrict themselves to interpreting the meaning from the literal text only.\nI recently made a post suggesting there are multiple other levels of meaning to be gleaned for a\nfull understanding. \n \nI think this principle applies to what goes on in the Board as well. Some may feel they are pure\nintellectual spirits here, driven solely by cerebral processes. I think much is missed by ignoring\nthe other brain pathways, the limbic system re-routes, the spurts of testosterone, cortisol and \nepinephrine which drive the thought and steer the words. Sure there is an intellectual level, but\nbelow that a level of ethnicity, nationality and faith, below that are levels of gender and humanity \nand an animal level below that.\n \nDoes gender sound out of place? Interesting anecdote: in my first month on this board I posted something\nwhich inadvertantly caused many to assume I was female. The change in tone and response and interest to\nmy posts was quite striking. As was the reversal when I made the correction.\n \nLet's consider the animal level and the species of hyenas, vultures and inhumi. They all perform important \nfunctions in their ecosystems despite what we may think of them. It is in their nature to act as they do \nand we can't expect them to change that. But consider the different behavioral responses we can get by \npresenting vultures and hyenas with 1. a wounded bunny 2. a fierce lion 3. another hyena or vulture. \nInhumi too provide varied responses based on the nature of their victim. Thus behavior can be shaped by\nthe stimuli provided.\n \nAndrew I think if you, and others reading this, think about it a little you can pretty much figure out my\npurpose and goals for contributing to this forum. A more interesting question is- am I accomplishing these\ngoal? I think you can guess the answer.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0032DD.3010007@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-09T01:37:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because you are a servant of Erebus?\n\nSeriously, while your points are well taken, I have always thought I \nhave observed another dynamic in operation.\n\nThere are several personality type systems in vogue, such as \nMyers-Briggs. In that system, there are Ps and Js. Briefly:\n\n---Ps tend to seek to increase options and can analyze forever.\n\n---Js tend to seek to decrease options and move on.\n\nI myself tend to be balanced between these extremes. But my point is \nthat true Ps and Js drive each other nuts.\n\nI think we have a P and a few Js on this board. ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/8/2010 7:59 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nAndrew I think if you, and others reading this, think about it a little you can pretty much figure out my\npurpose and goals for contributing to this forum. A more interesting question is- am I accomplishing these\ngoal? I think you can guess the answer." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D00438D.80802@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-09T02:48:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4D0032DD.3010007@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/8/2010 7:37 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n---Ps tend to seek to increase options and can analyze forever.\n\n---Js tend to seek to decrease options and move on. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is actually pretty perceptive (no pun intended), although it isn't \nthe *quite* the way I learned it. The Myers-Briggs website puts it this way:\n\n\"...when it comes to dealing with the outer world, people who tend to \nfocus on making decisions have a preference for Judging *because they \ntend to like things decided*. People who tend to focus on taking in \ninformation prefer Perceiving *because they stay open to a final \ndecision in order to get more information*.\"\nhttp://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/mbti-basics/judging-or-perceiving.asp\n\nI haven't really noted a war between these personality types. Perceivers \nwant a decider as long as as much time as possible was made available \nfor investigation. But I can see that Judgers would be distressed by an \nenvironment where investigation is inevitably open ended, where all the \nanswers might never be nailed down.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-09T09:41:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4D00438D.80802@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff- Because you are a servant of Erebus?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nHeh, I think you sell me short! Why not Erebus/Abaia himself? I may be a diabolical,manipulative \nmonstrosity who breaks off little pieces of himself in the form of internet posts to serve as agents\nfor my nefarious purposes, but at least I'm honest about it ;-).\n \nSeriously, though, I like this listserve, though I have tended to participate in flurries and spurts\nover the past 6 years. Despite (or perhaps partly because of?) its archaic format I wouldn't want to\nsee it fade away. I actually feel a bit bad that some of the quieter members get their email boxes so \ncluttered sometimes but it seems like a better alternative than the long periods of stasis I sometimes \nsee." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why, Lee, I've never seen you summarize your [Father Inire] theory so succinctly and directly! ;)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHeh, well I try. You have to remember I have various Severians and Tzadkiels working to thwart my goals.\n(but which are the oblivious, lovable heroes and which are the Angels of Judgement.....?)\n \nThat recently posted portion of my theory may be the core. It is harder to dismiss as as it draws almost \nentirely from the literal text. The other portions draw from the levels of religious, mythological and \nautobiographical subtexts, which are invisible to some and elusive to most all. \n \nDavid, you invoked the principle of \"book as universe; author as god\" principle. Have you considered that\nGene WOlfe writes consciously in this format but, given his religious leanings, prefers the variant of:\n\"book as universe; author as devil/demiurge\"? Obviously I do. Consider Weer........\n \n \nSpeaking of Judgement, I absolutely agree with your Meyers-Briggs assessment of this Board. I haven't been \ntested for a while but when I was younger I was an INTP with the strongest leanings toward N and P. Am I \nintuitive? My theory does continue to evolve." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David- It's true that demons, broadly speaking, are generally able to shift shapes, but to say that all aliens \nare shapeshifters....." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...And he [Father Inire] is not a shapeshifter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nShapeshifting in BotNS seems to be a sticking point for many. Perhaps because, while it is easy to swallow in \nMythology and Fantasy we expect more from SF in the form of hard science to back the fantasy up. Actually I think \nGene Wolfe created Tzakiel and the sponge-analogy and the Inhumi especially with those in mind. We get a good look \nat an inhumu with Krait in the pit. We are shown his claws and told his appearance as a human is accomplised in part\nby physical flexibility and in part by unspecified powers of illusion.\n \nIn these examples, I think I see a plea from Gene Wolfe for us to be more open to the presence of shapeshifting in \ncertain of his characters, perhaps Father Inire, trusting that he could provide a more science-based explanation \nif pressed. \n \n \n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D00CA34.9070807@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-09T12:23:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is an excellent variation on a theme. Certainly the author is even \nmore like a demiurge." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/9/2010 4:41 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDavid, you invoked the principle of \"book as universe; author as god\" principle. Have you considered that\nGene WOlfe writes consciously in this format but, given his religious leanings, prefers the variant of:\n\"book as universe; author as devil/demiurge\"? Obviously I do. Consider Weer........" } ] }, { "message_id": "<007CD623B7AD467ABE3336C07BC07878@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-09T17:18:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4D00438D.80802@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's a few years since I tested myself - I came out INTJ, but my J answers did not exceed the Ps by all *that* great a proportion!\n\nMaybe there is something in David's P vs J characterisation. But my issue is not with things being left open-ended (in fact I believe nany mysteries in Wolfe's books probably have no humanly accessible solution), nor is it with the exploration of possibilities.\n\nIt is not that I want to rush to a decision. What distresses me are endlessly proliferating trees of association and conjecture that seem to have as many negative correlations as positive with the works they are allegedly based on. I is not because I lack imagination that I find these distressing - it is because I have enough imagination that I recognise that there are infinitely many such trees of association possible, and if no invalidation is deemed permissible, how are we to distinguish useful trees from random ones? \n\nSo I pull hard on the trunk to check it is securely rooted, and shake the branches to make sure they are strong and the leaves do not fall out. I'm not out to kill the trees; I assume any tree worth considering is strong enough to stand up to this treatment. \n\nMy actions may be distressing to the gardeners. All I can say is that my ultimate goal is the same as theirs - to produce good wood.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n ----- Original Message ----- \n From: James Wynn \n To: The Urth Mailing List \n Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 2:48 AM\n Subject: Re: (urth) Dionysus\n\n\n On 12/8/2010 7:37 PM, David Stockhoff wrote: \n ---Ps tend to seek to increase options and can analyze forever. \n\n ---Js tend to seek to decrease options and move on. \n\n This is actually pretty perceptive (no pun intended), although it isn't the *quite* the way I learned it. The Myers-Briggs website puts it this way:\n\n \"...when it comes to dealing with the outer world, people who tend to focus on making decisions have a preference for Judging because they tend to like things decided. People who tend to focus on taking in information prefer Perceiving because they stay open to a final decision in order to get more information.\"\n http://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/mbti-basics/judging-or-perceiving.asp\n\n I haven't really noted a war between these personality types. Perceivers want a decider as long as as much time as possible was made available for investigation. But I can see that Judgers would be distressed by an environment where investigation is inevitably open ended, where all the answers might never be nailed down." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-09T17:26:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<007CD623B7AD467ABE3336C07BC07878@jill>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew I can't remember a problem I've had with your responses to my posts. You've always seemed\nrespectful and constructive. Still, your thoughtful post deserves an honest answer so I will do\nmy best, though you might not like it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK, no problem, then. You seemed to be concerned about anyone who\ncriticised your ideas without immediately producing better ideas -\nwhich I certainly haven't been doing, in general. (I produced a\n_possibly_ better idea about the monkey-like characters, but I don't\nbelieve it myself.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-09T17:46:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So...we agree that he's is the god of the \"vine\", not just grape vines.\nI do not believe specific species of vines mattered to Wolfe for this\nassociation one little bit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find that most improbable. The title 'god of the vine' is a\ntranslation of Greek and Latin phrases which referred to the grape\nvine. Dionysus was the god of wine and of grapes and so of the plant\nfrom which they come, the vine, in the historic sense of that term. He\nis not the god of climbing plants generally. (There seems to be a\ndifference between British and American usage here. To me, 'vine'\nprimarily means grape vine, and can by extension mean other plants\nthat resemble it. I get the sense that to Americans it just means\nclimbing plant, without grapes having any special precedence.\nAccording to the OED the wider sense is first attested in 1563, but\ndoesn't become widespread until the 18th century, and is then\ndistinctively American. )\n\nHe is also associated with ivy. I wouldn't say he was the god of ivy -\nthat would be like calling Hermes the god of winged sandals - but it\nis one of his symbols. So an imaginative writer might use climbing\nplants more generally as a symbol of him. But I don't see that as a\nforegone conclusion, just because of the word 'vine'." } ] }, { "message_id": "<22CBEBD6-8293-4DEE-89DA-7999DA2305D2@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-09T17:49:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) List to Forum?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 9, 2010, at 1:41 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nSeriously, though, I like this listserve, though I have tended to participate in flurries and spurts\nover the past 6 years. Despite (or perhaps partly because of?) its archaic format I wouldn't want to\nsee it fade away. I actually feel a bit bad that some of the quieter members get their email boxes so \ncluttered sometimes but it seems like a better alternative than the long periods of stasis I sometimes \nsee." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What about migrating this list into a message board forum?\nThis format is so archaic and difficult. \nWith a forum, if you don't want to check in, you don't get four thousand emails to deal with.\nWhen you check back in, discussions are very discoverable and linear. Trying to go back and follow any thread on this list is a chore to say the least.\n\nThat GeneWolfebookclub forum was cool. I dropped off due to life, but I liked it. Anyone on the fence about this should check it out. Since it was a book club read-through, I couldn't dig in the way you can here. Taking the Urth List into an Urth Forum would be awesome. It could't be that hard to set up, could it? Who is game?\n\n~Witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-09T17:50:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Andrew Mason\n wrote:\n\nSo...we agree that he's is the god of the \"vine\", not just grape vines.\nI do not believe specific species of vines mattered to Wolfe for this\nassociation one little bit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find that most improbable. The title 'god of the vine' is a\ntranslation of Greek and Latin phrases which referred to the grape\nvine. Dionysus was the god of wine and of grapes and so of the plant\nfrom which they come, the vine, in the historic sense of that term. He\nis not the god of climbing plants generally. (There seems to be a\ndifference between British and American usage here. To me, 'vine'\nprimarily means grape vine, and can by extension mean other plants\nthat resemble it. I get the sense that to Americans it just means\nclimbing plant, without grapes having any special precedence.\nAccording to the OED the wider sense is first attested in 1563, but\ndoesn't become widespread until the 18th century, and is then\ndistinctively American. )" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But do recall, please, that Wolfe is an American writer. (I almost\nwrote \"an _essentially_ American writer,\" but realized that, while\nthat is my impression, I have no real data to back it up.) As such, he\nmight be expected to use \"vine\" in the American sense.\n\nAgainst this, of course, is the fact that he is steeped in the Classics." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<77d67c965507d15f8aabff72015b11a2.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-09T18:16:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) List to Forum?", "in_reply_to": "<22CBEBD6-8293-4DEE-89DA-7999DA2305D2@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What about migrating this list into a message board forum?\nThis format is so archaic and difficult.\nWith a forum, if you don't want to check in, you don't get four thousand\nemails to deal with.\nWhen you check back in, discussions are very discoverable and linear.\nTrying to go back and follow any thread on this list is a chore to say the\nleast." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This list uses Mailman software, which allows people to set their accounts\nto \"no mail\" and follow the threads via the web interface if they like." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-09T18:21:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) List to Forum?", "in_reply_to": "<77d67c965507d15f8aabff72015b11a2.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Dec 9, 2010, at 10:16 AM, \"Jeff Wilson\" wrote:\nWhat about migrating this list into a message board forum?\nThis format is so archaic and difficult.\nWith a forum, if you don't want to check in, you don't get four thousand\nemails to deal with.\nWhen you check back in, discussions are very discoverable and linear.\nTrying to go back and follow any thread on this list is a chore to say the\nleast." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This list uses Mailman software, which allows people to set their accounts\nto \"no mail\" and follow the threads via the web interface if they like." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How does ne set that?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D012134.6010308@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-09T18:34:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) List to Forum?", "in_reply_to": "<22CBEBD6-8293-4DEE-89DA-7999DA2305D2@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Son of Witz wrote (09-12-2010 17:49):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This format is so archaic and difficult." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That seems to be a matter of deeply held opinion. Do not disturb." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-09T18:56:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l D. Oakes: But do recall, please, that Wolfe is an American writer. (I almost wrote \n\"an _essentially_ American writer,\" but realized that, while that is my impression, I have \nno real data to back it up.) As such, he might be expected to use \"vine\" in the American sense.\nAgainst this, of course, is the fact that he is steeped in the Classics." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Almost identical to what I would respond. As a purely anecdotal bit of data, I'll report that\nthe geography of my childhood and adulthood life is quite similar to Gene Wolfe's so it is\npossible that he and I are very close in regional American dialect of English. If you said the\nword \"vine\" to me, my first two thoughts would be of the brown snakey things seen on treks \nthrough our wooded areas and the things that Tarzan swung on. I've even had grapes growing in\nmy backyard at times but I think there of \"grape arbors\" not vines.\n \nIf pressed for further associations I would mention Hollywood and Vine and several other city's\nVine St. I'm familiar with. To get me to think of the wine fruit you'd probably have to press (heh) even\nfurther and actually say \"grapevine\". \n \nAnd I say all this realizing that just minutes ago (really) I listened to the song, \"I Heard it Through the Grapevine\" (Gladys Knight+Pips version). That song and usage, of course, has nothing to do with fruit or wine. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<293776.60756.qm@web84103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-09T18:58:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just what I was thinking. And these vines are on another planet and seem to be parasitic---regardless, they are not and cannot be of the grape family, nor ivy, nor any other we know. It seems unfair to hold their fundamental nongrapiness against them.\nA science fiction writer who luvs him some classical references needs a little leeway. Is a manned rocket not also a chariot of fire?\n\n--- On Thu, 12/9/10, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nSubject: Re: (urth) Dionysus\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 12:50 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Andrew Mason\n wrote:\n\nSo...we agree that he's is the god of the \"vine\", not just grape vines.\nI do not believe specific species of vines mattered to Wolfe for this\nassociation one little bit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find that most improbable. The title 'god of the vine' is a\ntranslation of Greek and Latin phrases which referred to the grape\nvine. Dionysus was the god of wine and of grapes and so of the plant\nfrom which they come, the vine, in the historic sense of that term. He\nis not the god of climbing plants generally. (There seems to be a\ndifference between British and American usage here. To me, 'vine'\nprimarily means grape vine, and can by extension mean other plants\nthat resemble it. I get the sense that to Americans it just means\nclimbing plant, without grapes having any special precedence.\nAccording to the OED the wider sense is first attested in 1563, but\ndoesn't become widespread until the 18th century, and is then\ndistinctively American. )" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But do recall, please, that Wolfe is an American writer. (I almost\nwrote \"an _essentially_ American writer,\" but realized that, while\nthat is my impression, I have no real data to back it up.) As such, he\nmight be expected to use \"vine\" in the American sense.\n\nAgainst this, of course, is the fact that he is steeped in the Classics." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-09T19:01:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) List to Forum?", "in_reply_to": "<4D012134.6010308@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: This list uses Mailman software, which allows people to set their accounts\nto \"no mail\" and follow the threads via the web interface if they like." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI didn't know how to do that so I once set my account to block the emails and it ended up\nknocking me off the list. So now I just keep a dummy email account and let them pile up\nthere withot reading them. Yeah, the web interface isn't bad for keeping track of threads. \nYou can sort by Thread, Subject or Author, month by month.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<5F2E59D7-900B-48BC-A205-D9581407492E@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-09T19:07:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) List to Forum?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 9, 2010, at 11:01 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: This list uses Mailman software, which allows people to set their accounts\nto \"no mail\" and follow the threads via the web interface if they like." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I didn't know how to do that so I once set my account to block the emails and it ended up\nknocking me off the list. So now I just keep a dummy email account and let them pile up\nthere withot reading them. Yeah, the web interface isn't bad for keeping track of threads. \nYou can sort by Thread, Subject or Author, month by month.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Me too. Hence 4000 unread messages now in my daily backup. :)\n\nThe web interface is ok, but you have to jump out of it if you want to post.\nPlus, with a forum you can subscribe to notifications. If you ask a question, you can set it so that you don't miss an answer someone provides maybe two years later." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D01296B.8060803@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-09T19:09:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andrew Mason wrote (09-12-2010 17:46):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He is also associated with ivy. I wouldn't say he was the god of ivy -\nthat would be like calling Hermes the god of winged sandals - but it\nis one of his symbols. So an imaginative writer might use climbing\nplants more generally as a symbol of him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But not here, I think. The fact that [grape]vine and ivy were always kept \nseparate as associates of Dyonisus is enough for someone like Wolfe, \namerican or not, not to abstract them into 'climbing plants'.\n\nHowever, given precedent and the way Wolfe toys with the transmission of \nlore, I think a case may be made either way in what regards 'vine'. Not \nnecessairly very convincingly on the non-grapy side, but strong enough." } ] }, { "message_id": "<247AD9601AFB45DF8EEC671BFED33162@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-09T19:10:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) List to Forum?", "in_reply_to": "<22CBEBD6-8293-4DEE-89DA-7999DA2305D2@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Son of Witz\" \nWhat about migrating this list into a message board forum?\nThis format is so archaic and difficult.\nWith a forum, if you don't want to check in, you don't get four thousand \nemails to deal with.\nWhen you check back in, discussions are very discoverable and linear. \nTrying to go back and follow any thread on this list is a chore to say the \nleast." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I quite like lists - they may be old-fashioned but in some respects they are \nmore convenient than forums, which involve logging in and may still forget \nwhat posts you have read.\n\nI also suspect lists create more activity.\n\nDid you know you can access the threads at " } ] }, { "message_id": "<0B7521A85E1E452882BD1580254E5474@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-09T19:24:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l D. Oakes: But do recall, please, that Wolfe is an American writer. \n(I almost wrote\n\"an _essentially_ American writer,\" but realized that, while that is my \nimpression, I have\nno real data to back it up.) As such, he might be expected to use \"vine\" \nin the American sense.\nAgainst this, of course, is the fact that he is steeped in the Classics." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Almost identical to what I would respond. As a purely anecdotal bit of \ndata, I'll report that\nthe geography of my childhood and adulthood life is quite similar to Gene \nWolfe's so it is\npossible that he and I are very close in regional American dialect of \nEnglish. If you said the\nword \"vine\" to me, my first two thoughts would be of the brown snakey \nthings seen on treks\nthrough our wooded areas and the things that Tarzan swung on. I've even \nhad grapes growing in\nmy backyard at times but I think there of \"grape arbors\" not vines." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So Wolfe, so familiar with every obscure god or South American jungle bird, \nremains uniquely provincial when it comes to the meaning of 'vine'? But \nsurely, someone who knew that Dionysius was associated with wine would, if \nhe heard of an association also with vines, draw the obvious conclusion that \nthis means grape vines?\n\nI think the association by way of ivy is stronge, if one feels the need to \nmake such a association..\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-09T20:04:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<0B7521A85E1E452882BD1580254E5474@jill>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\nBut do recall, please, that Wolfe is an American writer. (I almost\nwrote \"an _essentially_ American writer,\" but realized that, while\nthat is my impression, I have no real data to back it up.) As such, he\nmight be expected to use \"vine\" in the American sense." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, of course. But the question here is not how he understands 'vine'\nin isolation, but how he understands 'Dionysus, god of the vine'. He\npresumably knows enough about the history of the matter to realise\nthat this is specifically the grape vine.\n\n(Tangent: I do in fact notice occasional British-seeming things\nturning up in Wolfe's work. One that I can recall is in 'The Story of\nthe Student and his Son'. That story turns on a pun between 'thesis'\nand 'Theseus'. But the student is clearly a doctoral student, given\nthe length of time he is taking over it, and Americans normally speak\nof doctoral dissertations, not theses. There are other examples which\nI can't recall right now.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D013C9B.1080702@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-09T20:31:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn-\nSo...we agree that he's is the god of the \"vine\", not just grape vines.\nI do not believe specific species of vines mattered to Wolfe for this\nassociation one little bit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason-\nI find that most improbable. The title 'god of the vine' is a\ntranslation of Greek and Latin phrases which referred to the grape\nvine. Dionysus was the god of wine and of grapes and so of the plant\nfrom which they come, the vine, in the historic sense of that term. He\nis not the god of climbing plants generally. [snip]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You know, these objections *might* possibly carry more weight with me if \nBEFORE I read The Book of the Short Sun, I had NOT noted that Quetzal \ntracked nicely with Dionysus and argued that the word \"inhuma\" was \nprobably chosen for the semantical association between the bird called \nvariously \"inhuma\", \"unicorn bird\", and \"horned screamer\" with the \nhorned god known as the Screamer.\n\nAs it is, I then took up the Book of the Short Sun and discovered that \ninhumi are associated with vines and they are possessed by a spirit when \nthey feed on blood and the text is packed with overt Dionysian \nreferences. So, frankly, balking at \"gosh, you know those lianas are not \nreally *grape* vines, you know\" is sorta silly. Especially since \"liana\" \nis a term that can be applied to ANY climbing plant including grape \nvines. *It's called an allusion. Human's are the grapes of this Dionysus.*\n\nAn alzabo is really a hyena, but that didn't stop Wolfe from borrowing \nthe name from animal said to dig up graves and sob with a human-like \nvoice. It's like complaining that Pas was \"killed\" by the other gods \nwhile Zeus was only bound to a chair. So what?\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-09T20:36:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4D013C9B.1080702@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: So Wolfe, so familiar with every obscure god or South American jungle bird, remains \nuniquely provincial when it comes to the meaning of 'vine'? But surely, someone who knew that \nDionysius was associated with wine would, if he heard of an association also with vines, draw the \nobvious conclusion that this means grape vines? I think the association by way of ivy is stronge, \nif one feels the need to make such a association.." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry, again I think in your rush to convert interpretation of Gene Wolfe to mathematical principles\nyou are missing the point. We are talking about the thought processes of an author as he creates\na story. The commutative property of addition does not always work for understanding the human brain.\nOrdering and sequence matter (thus Tzadkiel-shapechange equals Inire-shapechange is a backwards \n\"argument\" and of course leads to a silly conclusion nobody would make).\n \nIf, as I think James was trying to suggest, Gene Wolfe had an idea for creating parasitic plant creatures\nwhich were thematically related to Dionysus, vines would be a meaningful choice as a connecting\nconcept. The thought process could be Dionysus-> God of Vines-> Inhumi-plants. If Wolfe were American.\n \nIf Wolfe was British or some other non-American speaker of English I could understand your objection\nto James' suggestion. Perhaps a British mind would first associate the word \"liana\" when thinking of \nparasitic jungle plants making a backward connection to Dionysus a bit ridiculous (god of lianas? feh!).\n \nIvy is a possible alternate thought pathway from Dionysus to parsitic vines. Perhaps British english\nspeakers associate ivy with parasitism more than we American? Notice I am asking, with a sincere \ninterest in the answer. Can anyone here speak on this? I think we Americans are most likely to associate\nivy with Harvard and other hallowed halls and walls. \n \nI would like to ask if there any Americans here who cannot see the connection of vines to tree parasites \nas a primary association?\n \n \nGerry your position seems to be: \n \n\"Gene Wolfe is a worldly, educated, highly intelligent man. Therefore his thinking must be the same as mine. \nSince I need grapes to connect Dionysus and vines so must Gene Wolfe. We can throw out seven decades of him \nliving in the USA, interacting with Americans, speaking American english and being exposed to American media as \nunimportant to his writing. If I, Gerry Quinn, think something, it pretty much has to be right. There is no \npoint in listening to what Americans think about this. Why do they matter?.\"\n \nIn a way I understand. There are no cultural differences in math. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D013DF9.9020903@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-09T20:37:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason-\n(Tangent: I do in fact notice occasional British-seeming things\nturning up in Wolfe's work. One that I can recall is in 'The Story of\nthe Student and his Son'. That story turns on a pun between 'thesis'\nand 'Theseus'. But the student is clearly a doctoral student, given\nthe length of time he is taking over it, and Americans normally speak\nof doctoral dissertations, not theses. There are other examples which\nI can't recall right now.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know about this. A thesis is usually a written paper arguing a \npoint, not a person fighting Ogres.\n\nI apologize without regret for the snark, Andrew, but this makes it \nclear that you can grasp the principle that I'm getting at.\n\nTo tell the truth, I've heard both in the US. I think, actually, thesis \nis an older term in the US that Wolfe is probably more familiar with.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-09T20:47:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4D013DF9.9020903@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 12:37 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nTo tell the truth, I've heard both in the US. I think, actually, thesis is\nan older term in the US that Wolfe is probably more familiar with." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Certainly in the '60s and '70s my mother talked about working on her\n\"doctor's thesis.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-09T20:49:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason: (Tangent: I do in fact notice occasional British-seeming things\nturning up in Wolfe's work. One that I can recall is in 'The Story of\nthe Student and his Son'. That story turns on a pun between 'thesis'\nand 'Theseus'. But the student is clearly a doctoral student, given\nthe length of time he is taking over it, and Americans normally speak\nof doctoral dissertations, not theses." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "FWIW- Having come from American academia I'll tesify that in my experience thesis\nand dissertation can be used somewhat interchangeably, especially informally. It is a pain\nto say \"dissertation\" all the time when talking to your friends. Sometimes dissertation is\nused to refer to the actual piece of work while thesis might refer to its topic.\n \n \nFormally, the word, \"dissertation\" is most likely to be used for the Ph.D. paper while \n\"thesis\" is most common for the final Masters project. That's my experience. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<918BE4E41DBC464BB53FB52DFC56ED5C@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-09T21:17:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: So Wolfe, so familiar with every obscure god or South \nAmerican jungle bird, remains\nuniquely provincial when it comes to the meaning of 'vine'? But surely, \nsomeone who knew that\nDionysius was associated with wine would, if he heard of an association \nalso with vines, draw the\nobvious conclusion that this means grape vines? I think the association by \nway of ivy is stronge,\nif one feels the need to make such a association.." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry, again I think in your rush to convert interpretation of Gene Wolfe \nto mathematical principles\nyou are missing the point. We are talking about the thought processes of \nan author as he creates\na story. The commutative property of addition does not always work for \nunderstanding the human brain.\nOrdering and sequence matter (thus Tzadkiel-shapechange equals \nInire-shapechange is a backwards\n\"argument\" and of course leads to a silly conclusion nobody would make)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am not trying to convert anything to mathematical principles. I point out \nthat everybody knows grapes grow on vines, and that Dionysius was associated \nwith grapes (via wine). Consequently there's an obvious association with \ngrape vines. Surely nobody, knowing this, would take a reference to \nDionysius as 'god of vines' to mean something other than grape vines, \nwithout exploring whether the simple interpretation of grape vines was not \nin fact the correct one? Especially an author as careful as Wolfe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If, as I think James was trying to suggest, Gene Wolfe had an idea for \ncreating parasitic plant creatures\nwhich were thematically related to Dionysus, vines would be a meaningful \nchoice as a connecting\nconcept. The thought process could be Dionysus-> God of Vines-> \nInhumi-plants. If Wolfe were American.\n\nIf Wolfe was British or some other non-American speaker of English I could \nunderstand your objection\nto James' suggestion. Perhaps a British mind would first associate the \nword \"liana\" when thinking of\nparasitic jungle plants making a backward connection to Dionysus a bit \nridiculous (god of lianas? feh!)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that *is* the connection being made, isn't it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry your position seems to be:\n\n\"Gene Wolfe is a worldly, educated, highly intelligent man. Therefore his \nthinking must be the same as mine.\nSince I need grapes to connect Dionysus and vines so must Gene Wolfe. We \ncan throw out seven decades of him\nliving in the USA, interacting with Americans, speaking American english \nand being exposed to American media as\nunimportant to his writing. If I, Gerry Quinn, think something, it pretty \nmuch has to be right. There is no\npoint in listening to what Americans think about this. Why do they \nmatter?.\"\n\nIn a way I understand. There are no cultural differences in math." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is not at all my position and I think you know it.\n\nI thought the claim was that Dionysius is sometimes called 'god of vines', \nand Wolfe, being American, might have interpreted this to mean lianas rather \nthan grape vines? As I said, it seems unlikely to me.\n\n - Gerry" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D014BE3.3070305@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-09T21:36:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) List to Forum?", "in_reply_to": "<5F2E59D7-900B-48BC-A205-D9581407492E@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/9/2010 1:07 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nOn Dec 9, 2010, at 11:01 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jeff Wilson: This list uses Mailman software, which allows people to set their accounts\nto \"no mail\" and follow the threads via the web interface if they like." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I didn't know how to do that so I once set my account to block the emails and it ended up\nknocking me off the list. So now I just keep a dummy email account and let them pile up\nthere withot reading them. Yeah, the web interface isn't bad for keeping track of threads.\nYou can sort by Thread, Subject or Author, month by month." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Me too. Hence 4000 unread messages now in my daily backup. :)\n\nThe web interface is ok, but you have to jump out of it if you want to post.\nPlus, with a forum you can subscribe to notifications. If you ask a question, you can set it so that you don't miss an answer someone provides maybe two years later." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "However, recent popular web forums are notorious for letting you miss \npostings that you *haven't* been party to." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-09T21:39:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<918BE4E41DBC464BB53FB52DFC56ED5C@jill>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nJames Wynn-\nSo...>>>>> Andrew Mason-\nI find that most improbable. The title 'god of the vine' is a\ntranslation of Greek and Latin phrases which referred to the grape\nvine. Dionysus was the god of wine and of grapes and so of the plant\nfrom which they come, the vine, in the historic sense of that term. He\nis not the god of climbing plants generally. [snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You know, these objections *might* possibly carry more weight with me if\nBEFORE I read The Book of the Short Sun, I had NOT noted that Quetzal\ntracked nicely with Dionysus" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Objections to what? I'm not objecting to the idea that inhumi are\nconnected with Dionysus. I was only questioning your specific\nstatement that 'we agree that he's is the god of the \"vine\", not just\ngrape vines.I do not believe specific species of vines mattered to\nWolfe for this association one little bit'. That sounded as though you\nthought Dionysus was traditionally venerated as the god of climbing\nplants generally, and that Wolfe understood things this way, and it\ndid not occur to him that 'god of the vine' has anything specific to\ndo with grapes. I think Gerry read you that way as well. If you did\nnot mean this, I apologise.\n\nI am sure Wolfe knows that this traditional title of Dionysus does\nhave to do with grapes. This, obviously, does not limit what he does\nwith the idea. A writer who can leap from 'thesis' to 'Theseus' and\nfrom 'Minotaur' to 'Monitor' can certainly leap from one sense of\n'vine' to another." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n\nFormally, the word, \"dissertation\" is most likely to be used for the Ph.D. paper while\n\"thesis\" is most common for the final Masters project. That's my experience." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, that's what I had in mind. In Britain it's the other way round. I\nhave heard Americans saying 'Oh, you don't mean a dissertation, you\nmean a thesis' or vice versa often enough to assume this was\nuniversal. But thanks, it's good to know in fact usage can be more\nflexible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nI thought the claim was that Dionysius" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nitpick: Dionysus. 'Dionysius' is a human name, one of whose bearers\nwas a Christian saint." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D014C9A.9020508@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-09T21:39:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) List to Forum?", "in_reply_to": "<247AD9601AFB45DF8EEC671BFED33162@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/9/2010 1:10 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nWhat about migrating this list into a message board forum?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This format is so archaic and difficult.\nWith a forum, if you don't want to check in, you don't get four\nthousand emails to deal with.\nWhen you check back in, discussions are very discoverable and linear.\nTrying to go back and follow any thread on this list is a chore to say\nthe least." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I quite like lists - they may be old-fashioned but in some respects they\nare more convenient than forums, which involve logging in and may still\nforget what posts you have read.\n\nI also suspect lists create more activity.\n\nDid you know you can access the threads at" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D01529A.1090309@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-09T22:05:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/9/2010 3:39 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\n\ned nicely with Dionysus\nAndrew Mason-\nObjections to what? I'm not objecting to the idea that inhumi are\nconnected with Dionysus. I was only questioning your specific\nstatement that 'we agree that he's is the god of the \"vine\", not just\ngrape vines.I do not believe specific species of vines mattered to\nWolfe for this association one little bit'. That sounded as though you\nthought Dionysus was traditionally venerated as the god of climbing\nplants generally, and that Wolfe understood things this way, and it\ndid not occur to him that 'god of the vine' has anything specific to\ndo with grapes. I think Gerry read you that way as well. If you did\nnot mean this, I apologise." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What I meant was that *for purposes of literary allusion*, all that \nmattered to Wolfe is that Dionysus is called \"the god of the vine\". Yet, \nthe term \"liana\" was still deftly chosen because could very well be used \nto refer to grape vines as it is not a grouping but a description of the \nway a plant grows. Obviously, Wolfe knows and cares that Dionysus is the \ngod of the grape vine, because for the inhumi, their wine is blood. I \nthought I'd made that clear, but I guess not.\n\nLooking back at Gerry's original objection I would be very surprised \nthat that is what he is getting at. In his 12/7 post that started all \nthis he responded thus:\n\nMe: \"Additionally, I have argued that the very word \"inhuma\" was chosen \nfor its association with Dionysus, the god of the vine. There are \nundeniable, although unexplained, associations between the inhumi and \nvines.\"\n\nGerry: \"If the inhumi are associated with vines, those are the lianas on \nGreen, which as far as I know do not yield grapes.\"\n\nWell, so what? Yet, it seemed to make a great difference to Gerry. I \nsupposed the lianas would have to have fat purple humans growing from \nthem for it to be a valid literary allusion for him. But, you might be \nright. It could be a big misunderstanding.\n\nu+16b9" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am sure Wolfe knows that this traditional title of Dionysus does\nhave to do with grapes. This, obviously, does not limit what he does\nwith the idea. A writer who can leap from 'thesis' to 'Theseus' and\nfrom 'Minotaur' to 'Monitor' can certainly leap from one sense of\n'vine' to another.\n\nLee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Formally, the word, \"dissertation\" is most likely to be used for the Ph.D. paper while\n\"thesis\" is most common for the final Masters project. That's my experience." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, that's what I had in mind. In Britain it's the other way round. I\nhave heard Americans saying 'Oh, you don't mean a dissertation, you\nmean a thesis' or vice versa often enough to assume this was\nuniversal. But thanks, it's good to know in fact usage can be more\nflexible.\nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I thought the claim was that Dionysius\nNitpick: Dionysus. 'Dionysius' is a human name, one of whose bearers\nwas a Christian saint." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-09T22:11:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4D01529A.1090309@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn- I thought the claim was that Dionysius is sometimes called 'god of vines', \nand Wolfe, being American, might have interpreted this to mean lianas rather >\nthan grape vines? As I said, it seems unlikely to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNo, you have interpreted incorrectly but I don't think it is your fault. I will try my best\nto explain. \n \n1. Liana is not a word most Americans are familiar with. When we want to talk about lianas we \nwould normally say \"vines\". Uneducated Americans may not ever have heard of the word liana.\nForgive me for speaking for others when I say NOBODY here thinks Gene Wolfe is uneducated \nor is unfamiliar with the word liana. But it is our secondary word for that object. Vine\nis primary.\n \n2. The suggestion is that Gene Wolfe, in associating Dionysus with parasitic lianas, is not\nmisinterpreting but engaging in word play as he often does. Nobody here thinks Gene Wolfe\nis confused as to the meanings of \"Theseus\" and \"thesis\" but some think he is engaging in\nword play there. Nor do we think Gene Wolfe is a dunce who thinks the mother of Romulus and \nRemus, Rhea Silvia, was named for a Bird Of The Woods. Word play again.\n\n \n3. If you are not American it is understandable that you might not understand this particular \nexample of word play involving Dionysus, vines and lianas. But I get it. Other Americans get it.\nIf you don't, you have the choice of being open to learning something new or assuming that your\nview must be correct and others are likely wrong. I am interested in which path you will choose.\n \n \n \n \n \n \n\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-09T22:53:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn- I thought the claim was that Dionysius is sometimes called \n'god of vines',\nand Wolfe, being American, might have interpreted this to mean lianas \nrather >\nthan grape vines? As I said, it seems unlikely to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, you have interpreted incorrectly but I don't think it is your fault. I \nwill try my best\nto explain.\n\n1. Liana is not a word most Americans are familiar with. When we want to \ntalk about lianas we\nwould normally say \"vines\". Uneducated Americans may not ever have heard \nof the word liana.\nForgive me for speaking for others when I say NOBODY here thinks Gene \nWolfe is uneducated\nor is unfamiliar with the word liana. But it is our secondary word for \nthat object. Vine\nis primary.\n\n2. The suggestion is that Gene Wolfe, in associating Dionysus with \nparasitic lianas, is not\nmisinterpreting but engaging in word play as he often does. Nobody here \nthinks Gene Wolfe\nis confused as to the meanings of \"Theseus\" and \"thesis\" but some think he \nis engaging in\nword play there. Nor do we think Gene Wolfe is a dunce who thinks the \nmother of Romulus and\nRemus, Rhea Silvia, was named for a Bird Of The Woods. Word play again." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this would be a somewhat obscure word-game. To get it one would \nhave to identify Dionysus as the son of Thyone, and then *misread* his \nassociation with vines - in other words, see him called 'god of vines' and \nnot realise that this meant grape vines. Is this word-play supposed to be \njust a joke, or something useful to understanding the story?\n\nAnalogously, one might imagine a story by an English writer which refers \nobliquely but specifically to Batman, but in which a clue to the unstated \nmeaning of the story is the concept of a hero who hits criminals with a \ncricket bat.\n\nOne cannot account for the thought processes inspiring an author, but these \nwould seem strange ways in which to present clues to readers.\n\nIt is not important anyway. If someone wants to believe the key to the \nShort Sun books is that the Outsider is the god of the inhumi (well he is, I \nsuppose, but only in the sense of being the god of everyone), they will find \na way to support it, with or without this line of argument." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3. If you are not American it is understandable that you might not \nunderstand this particular\nexample of word play involving Dionysus, vines and lianas. But I get it. \nOther Americans get it.\nIf you don't, you have the choice of being open to learning something new \nor assuming that your\nview must be correct and others are likely wrong. I am interested in which \npath you will choose." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I understand it. I still don't think it's very likely, for the reasons \nstated above.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D016184.8090602@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-09T23:08:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman-\n2. The suggestion is that Gene Wolfe, in associating Dionysus with \nparasitic lianas, is not\nmisinterpreting but engaging in word play as he often does. Nobody \nhere thinks Gene Wolfe\nis confused as to the meanings of \"Theseus\" and \"thesis\" but some \nthink he is engaging in\nword play there. Nor do we think Gene Wolfe is a dunce who thinks the \nmother of Romulus and\nRemus, Rhea Silvia, was named for a Bird Of The Woods. Word play again." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn-\nI think this would be a somewhat obscure word-game. To get it one \nwould have to identify Dionysus as the son of Thyone, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's a real leap. That's about as obscure as identifying Cain and \nAble as the children of Eve. Or Mary as the mother of Jesus. Or Romulus \nas the child of Rhea Silvia." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and then *misread* his association with vines - in other words, see \nhim called 'god of vines' and not realise that this meant grape vines." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Umm....I can't imagine why anyone would be expected to miss that \nassociation since the inhumi feed on the red, red wine of the human \nbody. I guess unless the lianas (grape vines ARE lianas, btw) had humans \ngrowing on them and the inhuma extracted the blood by mashing the people \nwith their feet, this would be just too hard an allusion for anyone to \npick up on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is this word-play supposed to be just a joke, or something useful to \nunderstanding the story?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Funny this should be asked. When I claim the word play surrounding the \nStory of Frog has something to do with understanding the Book of the New \nSun, people accuse me of building castles in the sky.\n\nI'm going to quit now, because if I say anything more it would be really \nuncharitable.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-10T00:16:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4D016184.8090602@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \nLee Berman-\n2. The suggestion is that Gene Wolfe, in associating Dionysus with \nparasitic lianas, is not\nmisinterpreting but engaging in word play as he often does. Nobody here \nthinks Gene Wolfe\nis confused as to the meanings of \"Theseus\" and \"thesis\" but some think \nhe is engaging in\nword play there. Nor do we think Gene Wolfe is a dunce who thinks the \nmother of Romulus and\nRemus, Rhea Silvia, was named for a Bird Of The Woods. Word play again." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn-\nI think this would be a somewhat obscure word-game. To get it one would \nhave to identify Dionysus as the son of Thyone," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's a real leap. That's about as obscure as identifying Cain and Able \nas the children of Eve. Or Mary as the mother of Jesus. Or Romulus as the \nchild of Rhea Silvia." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "and then *misread* his association with vines - in other words, see him \ncalled 'god of vines' and not realise that this meant grape vines." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Umm....I can't imagine why anyone would be expected to miss that \nassociation since the inhumi feed on the red, red wine of the human body. \nI guess unless the lianas (grape vines ARE lianas, btw) had humans growing \non them and the inhuma extracted the blood by mashing the people with \ntheir feet, this would be just too hard an allusion for anyone to pick up \non." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Note that I was answering Lee, who seemed to be saying that this *was* an \nAmerican misreading.of the 'god of vines' concept. You seem to be saying \nthe opposite.\n\nAlso, wouldn't your analogy above (the inhumi feeding on human blood, \nrepresented as wine) mean that it is the humans who are represented by the \nlianas, not the inhumi?\n\nLee seemed to be saying that Wolfe took Dionysus to be the god of vines and \nthus by wordplay to parasitic plants, with the parasitism of lianas being \nthe connection to inhumi.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0188A3.3000106@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-10T01:55:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Allusion.\n\nAn *allusion* is a figure of speech that makes a reference to, or \nrepresentation of, a place, event, literary work, myth \n, or work of art, either \ndirectly or by implication. M. H. Abrams defined allusion as \"a brief \nreference, explicit or indirect, to a person, place or event, or to \nanother literary work or passage\".^[1] \n It is left to the \nreader or hearer to make the connection (Fowler); where the connection \nis detailed in depth by the author, it is preferable to call it \"a \nreference \".\n\nThe god is present when humans take the blood of grapes into their \nbodies. James is right---there is no leap whatsoever. only a bit of a \ntwist, an unexpected rotation in space that makes two cults seem to \nalign for just a moment." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/9/2010 7:16 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nLee Berman-\n2. The suggestion is that Gene Wolfe, in associating Dionysus with \nparasitic lianas, is not\nmisinterpreting but engaging in word play as he often does. Nobody \nhere thinks Gene Wolfe\nis confused as to the meanings of \"Theseus\" and \"thesis\" but some \nthink he is engaging in\nword play there. Nor do we think Gene Wolfe is a dunce who thinks \nthe mother of Romulus and\nRemus, Rhea Silvia, was named for a Bird Of The Woods. Word play \nagain." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gerry Quinn-\nI think this would be a somewhat obscure word-game. To get it one \nwould have to identify Dionysus as the son of Thyone," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There's a real leap. That's about as obscure as identifying Cain and \nAble as the children of Eve. Or Mary as the mother of Jesus. Or \nRomulus as the child of Rhea Silvia." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "and then *misread* his association with vines - in other words, see \nhim called 'god of vines' and not realise that this meant grape vines." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Umm....I can't imagine why anyone would be expected to miss that \nassociation since the inhumi feed on the red, red wine of the human \nbody. I guess unless the lianas (grape vines ARE lianas, btw) had \nhumans growing on them and the inhuma extracted the blood by mashing \nthe people with their feet, this would be just too hard an allusion \nfor anyone to pick up on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Note that I was answering Lee, who seemed to be saying that this *was* \nan American misreading.of the 'god of vines' concept. You seem to be \nsaying the opposite.\n\nAlso, wouldn't your analogy above (the inhumi feeding on human blood, \nrepresented as wine) mean that it is the humans who are represented by \nthe lianas, not the inhumi?\n\nLee seemed to be saying that Wolfe took Dionysus to be the god of \nvines and thus by wordplay to parasitic plants, with the parasitism of \nlianas being the connection to inhumi.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-10T03:46:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4D0188A3.3000106@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that was a fruitful discussion. Heh. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D01AA68.7000105@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-10T04:19:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, that was a fruitful discussion. Heh." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry. Didn't mean to whine." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-10T16:51:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4D01AA68.7000105@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 8:19 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, that was a fruitful discussion. Heh." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sorry. Didn't mean to whine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Put a cork in it!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<998753.31632.qm@web114715.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T14:00:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus and the Outsider", "in_reply_to": "<247AD9601AFB45DF8EEC671BFED33162@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry, I didn't read a lot of the posts about Dionysus, so I may be duplicating \nsomething someone else said. But people are saying that the Outsider was the \nson of Thyone, that is, Dionysus. I read the passage quite differently. Silk \nsays there are two gods whose names are unknown: the son of Thyone and the \nOutsider. So they're two different gods. They're mentioned together and have \nanonymity in common, though, so some might draw conclusions from that.\n\n\"He [Silk's instructor] also said that Thyone's son was the only god whose name \nwe don't know. It was years before I realized that he'd been wrong. We speak \nof the Outsider, but it's obvious that 'the Outsider' can't be his name — that \nit's an epithet, a nickname.\"\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=-iCIWy8bPccC&pg=PA125#v=onepage&q&f=false\n\nThat is, the instructor was wrong because he'd forgotten the /other/ god whose \nname was unknown.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<205585.61991.qm@web37606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T14:09:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus and the Outsider", "in_reply_to": "<998753.31632.qm@web114715.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is it also possible that this is a nod to the different aspects of the Trinity \nthat people have been throwing around? We have two gods whose names are \nforgotten: the Outsider, who might be God the Father. We also have a Son, \nperhaps Christ...but we get that all mixed up with the remnants of Greek myths \nas well because of all the mish-mash that Pas made.\n\nThe real point of the passage, though, might not be that we're to divine some \nesoteric relationship between the Greeks and the \"real\" gods, as has been hashed \nout. Instead, it might just be to suggest that the real gods (i.e., God and \nChrist) have been forgotten -- and not having proper names is primarily a way to \nunderline that symbolically." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0A2075.40302@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-16T14:21:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus and the Outsider", "in_reply_to": "<205585.61991.qm@web37606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As someone who is weak on the technicalities of the Trinity, I like \nthat. Perhaps Dionysus is the eternal spirit of the Son without having \nhad material expression, at least not one Silk can name.\n\nMaybe that would mean something more like Outsider = Ghost with the \nunrealized potential of being the Father, but the \nprinciples/manifestations of Father and Son are latent in the sense that \nthey exist outside of time as well as in at least one other universe, \nbut not here in Silk's. Of course, there are practical reasons for Wolfe \nto go easy on the Trinity nomenclature, so there may be no need to parse \nit too closely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/16/2010 9:09 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nIs it also possible that this is a nod to the different aspects of the \nTrinity that people have been throwing around? We have two gods whose \nnames are forgotten: the Outsider, who might be God the Father. We \nalso have a Son, perhaps Christ...but we get that all mixed up with \nthe remnants of Greek myths as well because of all the mish-mash that \nPas made.\n\nThe real point of the passage, though, might not be that we're to \ndivine some esoteric relationship between the Greeks and the \"real\" \ngods, as has been hashed out. Instead, it might just be to suggest \nthat the real gods (i.e., God and Christ) have been forgotten -- and \nnot having proper names is primarily a way to underline that symbolically.\n\n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n*From:* Jerry Friedman \n*To:* The Urth Mailing List \n*Sent:* Thu, December 16, 2010 8:00:17 AM\n*Subject:* (urth) Dionysus and the Outsider\n\nSorry, I didn't read a lot of the posts about Dionysus, so I may be \nduplicating something someone else said. But people are saying that \nthe Outsider was the son of Thyone, that is, Dionysus. I read the \npassage quite differently. Silk says there are two gods whose names \nare unknown: the son of Thyone and the Outsider. So they're two \ndifferent gods. They're mentioned together and have anonymity in \ncommon, though, so some might draw conclusions from that.\n\n\"He [Silk's instructor] also said that Thyone's son was the only god \nwhose name we don't know. It was years before I realized that he'd \nbeen wrong. We speak of the Outsider//, but it's obvious that 'the \nOutsider//' can't be his name — that it's an epithet, a nickname .\"\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=-iCIWy8bPccC&pg=PA125#v=onepage&q&f=false \n\n\nThat is, the instructor was wrong because he'd forgotten the /other/ \ngod whose name was unknown.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0A214E.1020009@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T14:25:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus and the Outsider", "in_reply_to": "<205585.61991.qm@web37606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Craig Brewer wrote (16-12-2010 14:09):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is it also possible that this is a nod to the different aspects of the\nTrinity that people have been throwing around? We have two gods whose\nnames are forgotten: the Outsider, who might be God the Father. We also\nhave a Son, perhaps Christ...but we get that all mixed up with the\nremnants of Greek myths as well because of all the mish-mash that Pas made." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think so, but if it is, then it must be\nAl Lah = the Father\nOutsider = Holy Ghost\nThyone's son = the Son" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T14:39:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus and the Outsider", "in_reply_to": "<4D0A214E.1020009@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman- Sorry, I didn't read a lot of the posts about Dionysus, so I may be duplicating \nsomething someone else said. But people are saying that the Outsider was the son of Thyone, that \nis, Dionysus. I read the passage quite differently. Silk says there are two gods whose names are \nunknown: the son of Thyone and the Outsider. So they're two different gods. They're mentioned \ntogether and have anonymity in common, though, so some might draw conclusions from that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think you are missing something important. The above about the God of Wine and Thyone takes place \nin a theological lesson SilkHorn is giving to Hound. Later, after Hound has had time to mull things \nover, he asks Silk if it wouldn't make sense for the two unnamed gods to be the same entity. SilkHorn\nhighly praises Hound's insightfulness and remarks that he may have already told Hound too much.\n \nI can't see ANY reason for SilkHorn to worry about giving away too much truth about the gods. On the\nother hand I can see this being a great concern for Gene Wolfe and I think it is really he who is \nworried he has given away too much. (Dionysus has certainly been a key that unlocks many doors\nin the Sun series for me).\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0A257B.3030301@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T14:43:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus and the Outsider", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (16-12-2010 14:39):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jerry Friedman- Sorry, I didn't read a lot of the posts about\nDionysus, so I may be duplicating something someone else said. But\npeople are saying that the Outsider was the son of Thyone, that is,\nDionysus. I read the passage quite differently. Silk says there are\ntwo gods whose names are unknown: the son of Thyone and the Outsider.\nSo they're two different gods. They're mentioned together and have\nanonymity in common, though, so some might draw conclusions from that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think you are missing something important. The above about the God of\nWine and Thyone takes place in a theological lesson SilkHorn is giving to\nHound. Later, after Hound has had time to mull things over, he asks Silk\nif it wouldn't make sense for the two unnamed gods to be the same entity.\nSilkHorn highly praises Hound's insightfulness and remarks that he may\nhave already told Hound too much." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That DOES fall in line with Craig's trinity idea, doesn't it?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T15:27:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus and the Outsider", "in_reply_to": "<4D0A257B.3030301@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques- That DOES fall in line with Craig's trinity idea, doesn't it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nLike David, I'm not feeling fully keyed in to in depth discussions on the Trinity. But, SilkHorn,\ncontinuing his lesson to HOund, does remark on a confusing scenario in which The Outsider and\nPas are related as Father-Son-Father in some manner.\n \nI'll mention that in my research into Dionysus, this Greek god does match very well with the\nOutsider in that he is seen as one of the ancient chaotic gods who just couldn't quite be\ntied up or pinned under a rock or relegated to a constellation. So he was reborn- conceived \nas a product of a Zeus- Semele/Thyone mating and conception but upon her death during pregnancy\nhe was actually gestated and born directly from Zeus' leg or something eventually becoming an \nOlympian. \n \nSo, Dionysus'essence was composed of ancient god (Holy Spirit?), Zeus (Father?) and human (Son?).\n \n[anthropologically, I have to tie the ancient nature gods with primitive hunter-gathering Greeks, \nthe big ugly Titans with warlike Barbarian Greeks and the petty, pretty Olympians with the civilized\nGreeks. Not a surprise that the more civilized Greeks were not willing to just toss aside wine \nand the wild, uninhibited partying associated with it. Thus Dionysus, conflated with Pan, ends up \noutliving all the other Olympians and still remains with us today- see shows like Girls Gone Wild and \nJersey Shore for a glimpse, heh] \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-16T15:28:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus and the Outsider", "in_reply_to": "<998753.31632.qm@web114715.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 16, 2010, at 6:00 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nSorry, I didn't read a lot of the posts about Dionysus, so I may be duplicating something someone else said. But people are saying that the Outsider was the son of Thyone, that is, Dionysus. I read the passage quite differently. Silk says there are two gods whose names are unknown: the son of Thyone and the Outsider. So they're two different gods. They're mentioned together and have anonymity in common, though, so some might draw conclusions from that.\n\n\"He [Silk's instructor] also said that Thyone's son was the only god whose name we don't know. It was years before I realized that he'd been wrong. We speak of the Outsider, but it's obvious that 'the Outsider' can't be his name — that it's an epithet, a nickname.\"\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=-iCIWy8bPccC&pg=PA125#v=onepage&q&f=false\n\nThat is, the instructor was wrong because he'd forgotten the /other/ god whose name was unknown.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good work Friedman." } ] }, { "message_id": "<966113.32657.qm@web37603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T16:04:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus and the Outsider", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques- That DOES fall in line with Craig's trinity idea, doesn't \nit?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Like David, I'm not feeling fully keyed in to in depth discussions on the \nTrinity. But, SilkHorn,\ncontinuing his lesson to HOund, does remark on a confusing scenario in which The \nOutsider and\nPas are related as Father-Son-Father in some manner." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think you have to get too deep into the theology to make Antonio's/my \npoint. If the Outsider is God/Father/HolySpirit/whichever aspect of the \"real\" \ngod (in fact, it fits better that you can't identify The Outsider as Father or \nHoly Spirit with any determinacy -- it's just the REAL god)...AND if the SON of \nThyone is only important because it's a god that's a SON, then saying they're \nthe same God is just suggesting that Silk has intuited something about how, in \nthe \"real\" Christian world, there are different ways of talking about God that \nare actually the same God.\n\nSilk doesn't have to have any inkling of actual trinitarian theology to get that \ngeneral point. And perhaps his worry about having said too much is just his own \nadmission of humility in the face of matters about which he doesn't have any \nreal clear understanding. He often seems to have intuitions (and leftover ideas \nfrom his revelation) about the Truth, but it isn't anything he's worked out in \nany sort of systematic way.\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<508063.83926.qm@web114704.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-17T04:39:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus and the Outsider", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Lee Berman \nJerry Friedman- Sorry, I didn't read a lot of the posts about Dionysus, so I \nmay be duplicating " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "<>something someone else said. But people are saying that the Outsider was the \nson of Thyone, that " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "is, Dionysus. I read the passage quite differently. Silk says there are two \ngods whose names are \n\nunknown: the son of Thyone and the Outsider. So they're two different gods. \nThey're mentioned \n\ntogether and have anonymity in common, though, so some might draw conclusions \nfrom that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think you are missing something important. The above about the God of Wine and \nThyone takes place \n\nin a theological lesson SilkHorn is giving to Hound. Later, after Hound has had \ntime to mull things \n\nover, he asks Silk if it wouldn't make sense for the two unnamed gods to be the \nsame entity. SilkHorn\nhighly praises Hound's insightfulness and remarks that he may have already told \nHound too much." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're right, I did miss that, so thanks.\n\nI still think the Outsider is the Christian God and not Dionysus, and I like \nCraig Brewer's suggestions about how Silk's discussion relates to the Trinity.\n\nI'm inclined to agree with those who say Jesus isn't in Briah. I expect that \nWolfe isn't violating what Dan'l says is orthodox Catholicism: the Incarnation \nwas truly unique. I'd give better than even money that if he thought about it, \nhe'd say this was the last cycle in his fictional plan. And if I'm wrong, I'd \ngive better than even money that if he wrote a story in the universe after ours, \nit wouldn't need an Incarnation but would get by with ours.\n\n I'd explain the various echoes the way James Wynn would if he were inclined \nthat way: echoes of what Wolfe believes happened in our universe. They don't \nall have to refer to the same person. After all, the Conciliator has \nresemblances to Jesus, but we know he's not a sinless man who also has a divine \nnature. The same could be true of the man who scourged the merchants in Briah, \nif he was more than a legend.\n\nAnyway, thanks to all for interesting comments, including David Duffy's \ninterpretation of the crippled hairless animals.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0B5AB8.20405@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-17T12:42:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus and the Outsider", "in_reply_to": "<508063.83926.qm@web114704.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree, and I think that's a sound point about not repeating the \nIncarnation (which seems to be the term we have adopted and I will try \nto use!).\n\nI think many clues point to an economy of Incarnations, if not a \nparsimony, and if there are those universes that do not experience it \ndirectly, then there should not be billions that do. There should be one \nonly (though I can conceive otherwise), and this should be true on both \nlevels (universe and multiverse), which explains why Urth is so central \nto the angel-aliens' concerns even though it probably never the ruled \nthe galaxy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/16/2010 11:39 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n\nI'm inclined to agree with those who say Jesus isn't in Briah. I \nexpect that Wolfe isn't violating what Dan'l says is orthodox \nCatholicism: the Incarnation was truly unique. I'd give better than \neven money that if he thought about it, he'd say this was the last \ncycle in his fictional plan. And if I'm wrong, I'd give better than \neven money that if he wrote a story in the universe after ours, it \nwouldn't need an Incarnation but would get by with ours.\n\n I'd explain the various echoes the way James Wynn would if he were \ninclined that way: echoes of what Wolfe believes happened in our \nuniverse. They don't all have to refer to the same person. After \nall, the Conciliator has resemblances to Jesus, but we know he's not a \nsinless man who also has a divine nature. The same could be true of \nthe man who scourged the merchants in Briah, if he was more than a legend." } ] }, { "message_id": "<209195.82835.qm@web58207.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-20T15:58:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, I just can't ignore commenting.\n\nI don't think Silk is tri-partite in the way James Wynn does, I think the neighbor Horn is a separate body. My timeline is - ?Horn falls in the pit, his genetic material is reassembled and hybridized by the trees that inferentially make up the island and produce neighbor Horn. Somehow, his spirit survives this process but he ultimately dies again, where it is sent to the soon to commit suicide or just suicided?Silk (or so spiritually destroyed that he is no longer really there anymore).\n\nHorn takes over until the very end of OBW (current timeline, not flashbacks) when he sits under a big tree, says goodbye to everybody, and then his spirit flees into Babbie now that he has jump started Silk's soul. This is why instantly the text gets more positive - \"I should have said how nice this guy was, I should have said this positive thing, oh yeah, I caught the ball, I won the game.\" to paraphrase. Clearly Silk here. And the flashbacks get weaker and weaker because Horn just left to go ride Babbie, which is where he is in the scenes on urth when he tries to protect his son and says huh huh huh, trying to get out his name and pointing to his horns or tusks or whatever it is Babbie has. \n\nSilk from then on is trying to deny he is Silk because he believes he has killed his friend and student Horn and needs to become him, but it is Horn who really does save Silk by getting a download of Silk's personality back into the body and then voluntarily leaving to go ride Babbie, the beast with three horns. This is so clear to me I don't want to argue it with anyone, just throwing it out there again because I feel like the tri-partite discussion of Silkhorn is interesting but in my reading that neighbor Horn never gets inside Silk, instead it is Horn going into Silk's empty body and then re-downloading the copy of Silk into it from mainframe later.\n\n\nThe pit is the crux of what happens to Horn. I think certainly his body dies there, and that the island is inferentially made of huge carnivorous trees that recombine with his genetic material to make neighbor Horn.\n\nMost probably remember my theory that the hybridizing of corn is an important thematic clue to what is going on with the vines and trees - that the mixing of genetic matter of blood with the vines creates inhumi and the mixing of genetic matter with the trees makes neighbors.\n\nOne of the big islands on Blue is made up entirely of these enormous trees, and I always got the impression that the pit Horn fell into was the carnivorous maw of such a tree. The neighbors are now in a position to \"come visit\" because I think Horn has pretty much given them permission to eat people and thus hybridize with them, creating tree/human mixes. Thus, the neighbors woul be people, too, but hybrids through this odd transubstnation (ie - significance to lines like, we are the neighbors, etc.)? Giving the world to humanity be eating all of them. Somewhat sinister, no?\n\n--- On Tue, 12/7/10, Andrew Mason wrote:\n\n\n\n2. There is in any case something odd about the deal. From a normal\nhuman perspective it is unclear that the deal would be binding; but it\nis also unclear why the deal would be necessary. Would humans have the\nright to chase Neigbours off Blue if they had not given them\npermission to stay? They say 'tonight we give [this whorl] to you'.\nThis doesn't itself seem to be part of the deal; they say it\nunconditionally, and then ask Horn for permission to come back. But\nno one forced them to say it, and if Horn had not been there no one\nwould have known that they had said it. Or they could, as far as one\ncan see, have said 'we give you this whorl on condition that we are\nallowed to visit it from time to time'. That they asked even one\nhuman's permission seems an extra act of grace on their part." } ] }, { "message_id": "<458561.72820.qm@web84102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-20T16:13:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<209195.82835.qm@web58207.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Great!\nI like James's Neighborly explanation, but the pit is not explained by it. Why is a pit lying there? Carnivorous plants are a more-than-plausible answer.\nAnd if it makes Horn a potential or partial Christ figure, then so much the better.\n\n--- On Mon, 12/20/10, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\nFrom: Marc Aramini \nSubject: Re: (urth) Dionysus\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, December 20, 2010, 10:58 AM\n\nOkay, I just can't ignore commenting.\n\nI don't think Silk is tri-partite in the way James Wynn does, I think the neighbor Horn is a separate body. My timeline is - ?Horn falls in the pit, his genetic material is reassembled and hybridized by the trees that inferentially make up the island and produce neighbor Horn. Somehow, his spirit survives this process but he ultimately dies again, where it is sent to the soon to commit suicide or just suicided?Silk (or so spiritually destroyed that he is no longer really there anymore).\n\nHorn takes over until the very end of OBW (current timeline, not flashbacks) when he sits under a big tree, says goodbye to everybody, and then his spirit flees into Babbie now that he has jump started Silk's soul. This is why instantly the text gets more positive - \"I should have said how nice this guy was, I should have said this positive thing, oh yeah, I caught the ball, I won the game.\" to paraphrase. Clearly Silk here. And the flashbacks get weaker and weaker because Horn just left to go ride Babbie, which is where he is in the scenes on urth when he tries to protect his son and says huh huh huh, trying to get out his name and pointing to his horns or tusks or whatever it is Babbie has. \n\nSilk from then on is trying to deny he is Silk because he believes he has killed his friend and student Horn and needs to become him, but it is Horn who really does save Silk by getting a download of Silk's personality back into the body and then voluntarily leaving to go ride Babbie, the beast with three horns. This is so clear to me I don't want to argue it with anyone, just throwing it out there again because I feel like the tri-partite discussion of Silkhorn is interesting but in my reading that neighbor Horn never gets inside Silk, instead it is Horn going into Silk's empty body and then re-downloading the copy of Silk into it from mainframe later.\n\n\nThe pit is the crux of what happens to Horn. I think certainly his body dies there, and that the island is inferentially made of huge carnivorous trees that recombine with his genetic material to make neighbor Horn.\n\nMost probably remember my theory that the hybridizing of corn is an important thematic clue to what is going on with the vines and trees - that the mixing of genetic matter of blood with the vines creates inhumi and the mixing of genetic matter with the trees makes neighbors.\n\nOne of the big islands on Blue is made up entirely of these enormous trees, and I always got the impression that the pit Horn fell into was the carnivorous maw of such a tree. The neighbors are now in a position to \"come visit\" because I think Horn has pretty much given them permission to eat people and thus hybridize with them, creating tree/human mixes. Thus, the neighbors woul be people, too, but hybrids through this odd transubstnation (ie - significance to lines like, we are the neighbors, etc.)? Giving the world to humanity be eating all of them. Somewhat sinister, no?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<389004.30586.qm@web58201.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-20T16:36:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) thematic reason for 3rd person in Rttw", "in_reply_to": "<458561.72820.qm@web84102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All right, I was just sitting here and suddenly it struck me WHY the alternating chapters are 3rd person in RttW from an interpretive perspective. The narrator of OBW is Silkhorn in my view, with a lot of emphasis placed on Horn's beginning quest for Silk, more than his current situation. Well, he occasionally gets confused because of Silk's memories. However, he says good bye at the end of OBW and Horn leaves, so the narrator of IGJ, with less flashbacks, is Silk in denial, and the narrator of RttW is Silk in increasingly less denial as he gets closer to a home that isn't his. BUT the 3rd person chapters set back on the whorl are in 3rd person because the narrator of IGJ and current timeline RTTW SILK WAS NOT IN HIS BODY for the flashback, that is ONLY Horn, who has left the narrator. So it is thematically in third person. When Pig gets his eye and Silk can go back into his body at the very end, this is the climax of the third person\n sections ie - NOW we have Silkhorn, and Horn's strength gives Silk the will to live, and when he leaves, we only have Silk who was never there for the third person sections of RTTW.\n\nSweet. It always bugged me why they should be in 3rd person.\nMarc\n\n--- On Mon, 12/20/10, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n\n\nFrom: DAVID STOCKHOFF \nSubject: Re: (urth) Dionysus\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, December 20, 2010, 8:13 AM\n\n\n\n\n\n\nGreat!\n\n\nI like James's Neighborly explanation, but the pit is not explained by it. Why is a pit lying there? Carnivorous plants are a more-than-plausible answer.\n\n\nAnd if it makes Horn a potential or partial Christ figure, then so much the better.\n\n--- On Mon, 12/20/10, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Marc Aramini \nSubject: Re: (urth) Dionysus\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, December 20, 2010, 10:58 AM\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nOkay, I just can't ignore commenting.\n\nI don't think Silk is tri-partite in the way James Wynn does, I think the neighbor Horn is a separate body. My timeline is - ?Horn falls in the pit, his genetic material is reassembled and hybridized by the trees that inferentially make up the island and produce neighbor Horn. Somehow, his spirit survives this process but he ultimately dies again, where it is sent to the soon to commit suicide or just suicided?Silk (or so spiritually destroyed that he is no longer really there anymore).\n\nHorn takes over until the very end of OBW (current timeline, not flashbacks) when he sits under a big tree, says goodbye to everybody, and then his spirit flees into Babbie now that he has jump started Silk's soul. This is why instantly the text gets more positive - \"I should have said how nice this guy was, I should have said this positive thing, oh yeah, I caught the ball, I won the game.\" to paraphrase. Clearly Silk here. And the flashbacks get weaker and weaker because Horn just left to go ride Babbie, which is where he is in the scenes on urth when he tries to protect his son and says huh huh huh, trying to get out his name and pointing to his horns or tusks or whatever it is Babbie has. \n\nSilk from then on is trying to deny he is Silk because he believes he has killed his friend and student Horn and needs to become him, but it is Horn who really does save Silk by getting a download of Silk's personality back into the body and then voluntarily leaving to go ride Babbie, the beast with three horns. This is so clear to me I don't want to argue it with anyone, just throwing it out there again because I feel like the tri-partite discussion of Silkhorn is interesting but in my reading that neighbor Horn never gets inside Silk, instead it is Horn going into Silk's empty body and then re-downloading the copy of Silk into it from mainframe later.\n\n\nThe pit is the crux of what happens to Horn. I think certainly his body dies there, and that the island is inferentially made of huge carnivorous trees that recombine with his genetic material to make neighbor Horn.\n\nMost probably remember my theory that the hybridizing of corn is an important thematic clue to what is going on with the vines and trees - that the mixing of genetic matter of blood with the vines creates inhumi and the mixing of genetic matter with the trees makes neighbors.\n\nOne of the big islands on Blue is made up entirely of these enormous trees, and I always got the impression that the pit Horn fell into was the carnivorous maw of such a tree. The neighbors are now in a position to \"come visit\" because I think Horn has pretty much given them permission to eat people and thus hybridize with them, creating tree/human mixes. Thus, the neighbors woul be people, too, but hybrids through this odd transubstnation (ie - significance to lines like, we are the neighbors, etc.)? Giving the world to humanity be eating all of them. Somewhat sinister, no?\n\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-20T17:47:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<458561.72820.qm@web84102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David: Great! I like James's Neighborly explanation, but the pit is not explained by it. \nWhy is a pit lying there?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I think Marc and James share far more in their theories than they differ. Not only\ndoes Marc share the Horn-Neighbor idea but they share in seeing the significance of trees\nand vines, which many do not.\n \nI am not nearly as familiar with Long/Short Sun as BotNS so with hesitation I call into \nquestion only the part about the pit. In a recent re-reading I notice the pit has new\ngrowth plants in it, in contrast to the surrounding mature trees. Also there is a ring\nof blue glass around the pit, and together they suggest to me that the pit is the former\nresting place of a large spaceship which blasted off a while ago; long enough for shrubs to\ngrow but not trees. I'm not sure if this could be incoporated into the existing theories of\nothers but I can't ignore the glass and shrubs.\n \nMarc your idea on human blood interacting with trees and vines to form Neighbors and \nInhumi is quite fascinating. I'm not the only one who sees echoes of 5HoC Shadow Children\nin Inhumi. Your idea might even suggest a parallel to that other shapeshifting, imitative\ngroup from Ste. Anne, the Abos. Both Abos and Neighbors seem to have a quasi-Native American\nnaming system and way of life." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Giving the world to humanity be eating all of them. Somewhat sinister, no?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes! But not totally. I think my view of Neighbors and Inhumi is more symbiotic. They have \nbecome entwined within this ecosystem and perhaps the Neighbors have given Blue to humanity\nto feed the Inhumi, not so much themselves (they are the Vanished, or vanishing, People).\n \nI say not totally sinister because it may be that the remaining Neighbors find value in their\nsymbiosis with Inhumi which seems to allow dream travel (again like Shadow Children). Perhaps\nthere is the perception that adding humanity to the mix will be of benefit to all three species.\nThere remains a lot of conflict to work out, as evidenced by the wedding scene at the end of \nRttW.\n \nOn the other hand, from a Christian perspective this does seem like a sinister ecosystem/universe. \nWhere is the Salvation? Apologies for harping but I keep getting the impression that Wolfe is \nsuggesting such nasty hybridization is the best a gnostic universe can hope for in the absence of a \n(purifying?) presence like Christ.\n \n(I must toss in the heretical suggestion that Wolfe's choice to set some of his major stories in\nnon-Christian settings implies that while Salvation is a desired goal (personal or planetary), \nit provides less substance of literary interest than a world populated by gods, vampires, monsters, \nand angels.) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0F9E13.4080801@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-20T18:18:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman-\nYes, I think Marc and James share far more in their theories than they differ. Not only\ndoes Marc share the Horn-Neighbor idea but they share in seeing the significance of trees\nand vines, which many do not." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, Marc and I (rightly) recognize certain clues _as clues_ that are \ngenerally ignored entirely. But from there we radically and \nirreconcilably diverge. Marc at least DOES try to explain HOW the vines \nand trees are related to inhumi and Neighbors, while I do not address \nthat question at all. However, I'm in strong disagreement with him \nregarding what happens to Horn in that pit and consequently accepting \nthe rest gets problematic. But at least Marc is attempting to look at \nthe text \"with open eyes\". It seems to me that most people merely ignore \nhalf of what is said, referenced, and alluded to in the \"The Book of the \nShort Sun\".\n\nHere is Marc's full theory as of several years ago. He might have \ntweaked it since then.\nhttp://urth.org/whorlmap/chras-writers/marc-aramini1.htm\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<953501CF-07C3-4390-9F3F-D8ACDDF0082B@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-20T18:22:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) thematic reason for 3rd person in Rttw", "in_reply_to": "<389004.30586.qm@web58201.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wow.\nI can't wait to re read these with this in mind, I've only read Long-Short once.\nStu turned me onto Aramini's ideas after reading the series the first time and my head was spinning as I tried to wrap my head around the fragments I found on the list. Nice to have them so succinct here. What a crazy plot! The third person idea is really compelling. I can't verify it, but if it is right it validates a lot. Is wolfe completely insane, these plots just get nuttier and nuttier the more you look at them.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 20, 2010, at 8:36 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\nAll right, I was just sitting here and suddenly it struck me WHY the alternating chapters are 3rd person in RttW from an interpretive perspective. The narrator of OBW is Silkhorn in my view, with a lot of emphasis placed on Horn's beginning quest for Silk, more than his current situation. Well, he occasionally gets confused because of Silk's memories. However, he says good bye at the end of OBW and Horn leaves, so the narrator of IGJ, with less flashbacks, is Silk in denial, and the narrator of RttW is Silk in increasingly less denial as he gets closer to a home that isn't his. BUT the 3rd person chapters set back on the whorl are in 3rd person because the narrator of IGJ and current timeline RTTW SILK WAS NOT IN HIS BODY for the flashback, that is ONLY Horn, who has left the narrator. So it is thematically in third person. When Pig gets his eye and Silk can go back into his body at the very end, this is the climax of the third person sections ie - NOW we have Silkhorn, and Horn's strength gives Silk the will to live, and when he leaves, we only have Silk who was never there for the third person sections of RTTW.\n \nSweet. It always bugged me why they should be in 3rd person.\nMarc\n\n--- On Mon, 12/20/10, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n\nFrom: DAVID STOCKHOFF \nSubject: Re: (urth) Dionysus\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, December 20, 2010, 8:13 AM\n\nGreat!\n\nI like James's Neighborly explanation, but the pit is not explained by it. Why is a pit lying there? Carnivorous plants are a more-than-plausible answer.\n\nAnd if it makes Horn a potential or partial Christ figure, then so much the better.\n\n--- On Mon, 12/20/10, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\nFrom: Marc Aramini \nSubject: Re: (urth) Dionysus" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6D591596-D12C-4095-A0A5-1B12943471CF@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-20T18:26:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4D0F9E13.4080801@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 20, 2010, at 10:18 AM, James Wynn wrote:\n\nHere is Marc's full theory as of several years ago. He might have tweaked it since then.\nhttp://urth.org/whorlmap/chras-writers/marc-aramini1.htm" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hits *Read Later* > saved to Instapaper!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<161057.87174.qm@web58204.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-20T18:54:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4D0F9E13.4080801@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Haven't posted in a long long time because of all the huge resistance to almost every aspect of my interpretation of Short Sun, but I will attempt to respond to James' statement that the Outsider should be outside. Well, Typhon is essentially impersonating the Outsider with his message to Silk. There is still an Outsider, but his factual presence in the text can be explained by Typhon just setting Silk up to think he has been truly enlightened, when really its all just the Plan of Pas/Typhon. Once again, the Hubris of Typhon in trying to establish himself as an Outsider when in fact he simply serves that same divine will. So the Outsider is just a myth put in the text by Typhon.\n\nHOWEVER what's awesome about Wolfe is that the real true Outsider can be working through Typhon's megalomaniacal impersonation?... but Wolfe doesn't cheat by making a revelation actual evidence for the existence of God, he gives a true secular explanation hidden under a divine one that originally seems better than the lame secular one Crane gives, blood vessel exploding in the brain stuff. The irony is that the weakest proposition to explain the enlightenment might be the \"truest\" physical explanation.\n\nJames, I am a weird Catholic and I have no problem with the enlightenment of Silk being both fully Typhon and fully Yahweh, just as I have no problem with evolution being fully natural and fully part of a divine ordering of a free universe. So I don't think we disagree. The Outsider is outside the whorl, but his voice is that of Typhon and Kypris, Satan transfigured by love.\n\n--- On Mon, 12/20/10, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Dionysus\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, December 20, 2010, 10:18 AM\nLee Berman-\nYes, I think Marc and James share far more in their theories than they differ. Not only\ndoes Marc share the Horn-Neighbor idea but they share in seeing the significance of trees\nand vines, which many do not." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, Marc and I (rightly) recognize certain clues _as clues_ that are generally ignored entirely. But from there we radically and irreconcilably diverge. Marc at least DOES try to explain HOW the vines and trees are related to inhumi and Neighbors, while I do not address that question at all. However, I'm in strong disagreement? with him regarding what happens to Horn in that pit and consequently accepting the rest gets problematic. But at least Marc is attempting to look at the text \"with open eyes\". It seems to me that most people merely ignore half of what is said, referenced, and alluded to in the \"The Book of the Short Sun\".\n\nHere is Marc's full theory as of several years ago. He might have tweaked it since then.\nhttp://urth.org/whorlmap/chras-writers/marc-aramini1.htm\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0FAE2E.2070909@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-20T19:27:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<161057.87174.qm@web58204.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn: So, the fundamental problem with this theory, as I see it, is that it\ncasually flicks to the gutter the most fundamental attributes of the\nOutsider. By this theory, Silk's Outsider is NOT a god outside of the\nWhorl. Instead he is ACTUALLY and existentially _only_ an INSIDER." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman-\nJames you are often a step or two ahead of me in reasoning, so it can be hard to\nkeep up. I don't see this conclusion within Marc's theory. How is the Outsider\nrestricted to being inside the Whorl?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Pas and Kypris are restricted to being inside the Whorl. If they are \nThe Outsider that Silk encounters, then there is nothing Outsiderish \nabout Him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini -\nHaven't posted in a long long time because of all the huge resistance \nto almost every aspect of my interpretation of Short Sun, but I will \nattempt to respond to James' statement that the Outsider should be \noutside." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I hope this doesn't make you go away again. To the contrary, I \njust want to ensure you ideas are taken seriously and met with more than \na shrug." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini -\nWell, Typhon is essentially impersonating the Outsider with his \nmessage to Silk. There is still an Outsider, but his factual presence \nin the text can be explained by Typhon just setting Silk up to think \nhe has been truly enlightened, when really its all just the Plan of \nPas/Typhon. Once again, the Hubris of Typhon in trying to establish \nhimself as an Outsider when in fact he simply serves that same divine \nwill. So the Outsider is just a myth put in the text by Typhon.\n HOWEVER what's awesome about Wolfe is that the real true Outsider can \nbe working through Typhon's megalomaniacal impersonation ... but Wolfe \ndoesn't cheat by making a revelation actual evidence for the existence \nof God, he gives a true secular explanation hidden under a divine one \nthat originally seems better than the lame secular one Crane gives, \nblood vessel exploding in the brain stuff. The irony is that the \nweakest proposition to explain the enlightenment might be the \"truest\" \nphysical explanation.\nJames, I am a weird Catholic and I have no problem with the \nenlightenment of Silk being both fully Typhon and fully Yahweh, just \nas I have no problem with evolution being fully natural and fully part \nof a divine ordering of a free universe. So I don't think we \ndisagree. The Outsider is outside the whorl, but his voice is that of \nTyphon and Kypris, Satan transfigured by love." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc,\nI get what you are saying philosophically, but this interpretation \nreally strikes me as destructive to the themes, narratives, and \ncharacterizations of Wolfe's world. You rightly say that your theory \ndoes not _exclude_ the possibility that by imitating gods, Pas and \nKypris are acting in the Increate's behalf. But it certainly \n_undermines_ the likelihood of the Outsider's _genuine_ existence. What \nyou are describing sounds more like something Pullman would write rather \nthan Wolfe.\n(I realize this is \"aesthetic blowback\", which can be unfair, but it's \nnot the only card I intend to play, and it is necessary to address that \nportion of your justification for your theory.)\n\nAs I move on, let me reiterate. You are saying that the being who \nenlightens Silk and communicates with him is not /fundamentally/ a god \nwho is outside the Whorl but /actually/ the demiurge again, Pas, and his \nconsort.\n\nThis is a problem on so many levels it's bewildering. The \"Outsider\" \ntells Silk that Kypris, the god of Love, has become associated with Him \nand that if she were erased, in a few centuries, Thelxiepeia would \nassume that role. It would take paragraphs to explain why it is \nimpossible that these words would come from Typhon/Pas. Yeah, he's \nimitating a god and so \"in a sense\" becomes one. But he doesn't BECOME \nthe Outsider. Quetzal imitates a holy man, but he still attempts to \nguide his flock to the Hell on Green. Spider's spies have fight bravely \nfor General Mint but they are still working on Potto's behalf. If you \nplace the words from the Outsider to Silk at Thelx's pool into Pas' \nmouth (or even Kypris'), then entire scene and dialog becomes \nincomprehensible. It makes Pas a Chestertonian Christian having fully \nabandoned (as far as is detectable from the reader) his own ego or \nagenda, but still carrying on a charade. It supposes Pas has knowlege \nand understanding that --if he believed it-- would cease to make him Pas \nat all.\n\nAdditionally, the demiurge-as-Increate is absolutely destructive to the \nGnostic framework that Wolfe has created in the Whorl...a framework you \nyourself acknowledge.\n\nI don't consider it \"cheating\" to have the Outsider enlighten Silk. And \nhaving considered a couple other rationalized options as well as this \none, I don't think it could be any other way.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<598673.10698.qm@web58204.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-20T19:29:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "<4D0F9E13.4080801@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And even though I don't necessarily buy New Sun as an entirely gnostic system, the whorl of Long Sun IS. The demiurge Typhon populates it with his religion, his family, his deceptions, and then even has his biological son planted there to become a physical, terrestrial (as opposed to celestial, I suppose)?leader, but somehow his son?Silk becomes something much more. \n\nMy big big big question that needs resolving ASAP is how are Severian and Typhon related? Silk is Typhon's real biological son, of this I am 99.9% certain (not a clone).\nSilk takes Typhon's daughter Scylla in Oreb back to Sev's childhood mausoleum, which winds up being the crypt of some of Typhon's family. But that is the same mausoleum where Severian used to see his face when he was a child. SO how is Severian related to Typhon's family, that his face is immortalized in their family resting place? \n\nMarc\n\n\n\n--- On Mon, 12/20/10, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Dionysus\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, December 20, 2010, 10:18 AM\nLee Berman-\nYes, I think Marc and James share far more in their theories than they differ. Not only\ndoes Marc share the Horn-Neighbor idea but they share in seeing the significance of trees\nand vines, which many do not." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, Marc and I (rightly) recognize certain clues _as clues_ that are generally ignored entirely. But from there we radically and irreconcilably diverge. Marc at least DOES try to explain HOW the vines and trees are related to inhumi and Neighbors, while I do not address that question at all. However, I'm in strong disagreement? with him regarding what happens to Horn in that pit and consequently accepting the rest gets problematic. But at least Marc is attempting to look at the text \"with open eyes\". It seems to me that most people merely ignore half of what is said, referenced, and alluded to in the \"The Book of the Short Sun\".\n\nHere is Marc's full theory as of several years ago. He might have tweaked it since then.\nhttp://urth.org/whorlmap/chras-writers/marc-aramini1.htm\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<387579.61022.qm@web58205.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-20T19:34:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4D0FAE2E.2070909@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I think it is the demiurge again enacting his plan. The male and female voice are Typhon and his mistress whispering words of love to their zygote child, superman I style, but this time planted in his brain for the right moment. The entire system is closed, and Typhon sets up multiple iterations of himself, Pas, Outsider, all for his own glorification.\n\nMarc\n\n--- On Mon, 12/20/10, James Wynn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Dionysus\n\nAs I move on, let me reiterate. You are saying that the being who enlightens Silk and communicates with him is not /fundamentally/ a god who is outside the Whorl but /actually/ the demiurge again, Pas, and his consort.\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0FB160.3020007@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-20T19:41:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "<598673.10698.qm@web58204.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini -\nMy big big big question that needs resolving ASAP is how are Severian \nand Typhon related? Silk is Typhon's real biological son, of this I \nam 99.9% certain (not a clone).\nSilk takes Typhon's daughter Scylla in Oreb back to Sev's childhood \nmausoleum, which winds up being the crypt of some of Typhon's family. \nBut that is the same mausoleum where Severian used to see his face \nwhen he was a child. SO how is Severian related to Typhon's family, \nthat his face is immortalized in their family resting place?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "1) It was pretty well proven to me that the mausoleum the Rajan and \nCilinia visit was not Severian's (which strikes me as odd). Wolfe might \nhave made errors describing the tomb, but it would be cheating to assume \nthat.\n\n2) FWIW I believe that Silk is a clone of the son of Typhon and Kypris --\nIn an online discussion with readers at the Sci-Fi channel website, \nsomeone asked Wolfe to clarify Silk's /ancestry/. NOTE: Not his \nparentage or heritage but his \"ancestry\". Wolfe replied that \"Silk was \n\"the son of the Calde and his mistress\". That is an incomprehensible \nanswer, knowing what we know, unless Wolfe were referring to Typhon and \nhis mistress. It was this answer that convinced me that Tussah was a \nclone of Typhon.\n\nI think Silk is probably Fish from the story of Frog. I also strongly \nsuspect Fish was a clone of Typhon, which explains the direct \nassociations between Silk and Pas throughout The Book of the Long Sun.\n\nu+16b9" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc\n\n--- On *Mon, 12/20/10, James Wynn //* wrote:\n\n\n From: James Wynn \n Subject: Re: (urth) Dionysus\n To: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \n Date: Monday, December 20, 2010, 10:18 AM\n\n\n > Lee Berman-\n > Yes, I think Marc and James share far more in their theories\n than they differ. Not only\n > does Marc share the Horn-Neighbor idea but they share in seeing\n the significance of trees\n > and vines, which many do not.\n\n Yeah, Marc and I (rightly) recognize certain clues _as clues_ that\n are generally ignored entirely. But from there we radically and\n irreconcilably diverge. Marc at least DOES try to explain HOW the\n vines and trees are related to inhumi and Neighbors, while I do\n not address that question at all. However, I'm in strong\n disagreement with him regarding what happens to Horn in that pit\n and consequently accepting the rest gets problematic. But at least\n Marc is attempting to look at the text \"with open eyes\". It seems\n to me that most people merely ignore half of what is said,\n referenced, and alluded to in the \"The Book of the Short Sun\".\n\n Here is Marc's full theory as of several years ago. He might have\n tweaked it since then.\n http://urth.org/whorlmap/chras-writers/marc-aramini1.htm\n\n u+16b9\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<655967.35191.qm@web58207.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-20T19:44:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "<4D0FB160.3020007@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I interpret this as a cheating ADOPTED parents answer by wolfe - his mother was the calde's mistress, that's why she kept his bust in the closet. Silk has two sets of parents, Tussah, his mother, Typhon, and Mamelta, who appear while he is, I believe, buried under a falling wall or fallen or something when the jail falls.\n\n\n--- On Mon, 12/20/10, James Wynn wrote:\n\n\nhis \"ancestry\". Wolfe replied that \"Silk was \"the son of the Calde and his mistress\". That is an incomprehensible answer, knowing what we know, unless Wolfe were referring to Typhon and his mistress. It was this answer that convinced me that Tussah was a clone of Typhon.\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<717965.61174.qm@web58208.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-20T19:46:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "<4D0FB160.3020007@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So I just wanted to make the point his step sister would be Chenille, not a real sister or clone sister or anything like that. So I don't think Tussah was Typhon, but I do think Silk is?Typhon's real biological son and Tussah's adopted one.\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<447883.40295.qm@web58207.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-20T19:53:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "<4D0FB160.3020007@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And this is why I wasn't getting much out of the list for a few years, to be honest.\n\nA big mystery in the text: Sev hangs out all the time in a mausoleum where he sees his face clearly . ?In another book he takes Scylla to a mausoleum that winds up to be the one of some of Typhon's family that could possibly explain why Sev's face was there and how he is related to everybody in the whorl ................ but instead, nope, just two different mausoleums. Not happy with that answer. ? :(? Not at all.\n\n\n\n\n\n--- On Mon, 12/20/10, James Wynn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: James Wynn \n\n1) It was pretty well proven to me that the mausoleum the Rajan and Cilinia visit was not Severian's (which strikes me as odd). Wolfe might have made errors describing the tomb, but it would be cheating to assume that.\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<59992.69315.qm@web58208.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-20T20:00:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) tussah bought the embryo, right?", "in_reply_to": "<447883.40295.qm@web58207.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry to keep responding, but didn't Tussah BUY the embryo??Wasn't that one of the scandals of his reign??That's why I don't think he is Typhon, but just Silk's adopted father or purchaser. Need to re-read Long Sun again.\nMarc\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<21251D3B-3750-49AC-A656-6B81CAA36566@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-20T20:32:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "<447883.40295.qm@web58207.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think all of of us are disappointed that the text seems to present very different mausoleums.\nIt isn't argued against based on aesthetics. Aesthetically, I think everyone wants it to be, but it seems like Wolfe chose differently for whatever reason." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 20, 2010, at 11:53 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nAnd this is why I wasn't getting much out of the list for a few years, to be honest.\n \nA big mystery in the text: Sev hangs out all the time in a mausoleum where he sees his face clearly . In another book he takes Scylla to a mausoleum that winds up to be the one of some of Typhon's family that could possibly explain why Sev's face was there and how he is related to everybody in the whorl ................ but instead, nope, just two different mausoleums. Not happy with that answer. :( Not at all.\n \n \n \n\n\n--- On Mon, 12/20/10, James Wynn wrote:\n\nFrom: James Wynn \n1) It was pretty well proven to me that the mausoleum the Rajan and Cilinia visit was not Severian's (which strikes me as odd). Wolfe might have made errors describing the tomb, but it would be cheating to assume that.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0FBD5F.9030101@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-20T20:32:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) tussah bought the embryo, right?", "in_reply_to": "<59992.69315.qm@web58208.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini-\nSorry to keep responding, but didn't Tussah BUY the embryo? Wasn't \nthat one of the scandals of his reign? That's why I don't think he is \nTyphon, but just Silk's adopted father or purchaser. Need to re-read \nLong Sun again." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't deny that Tussah is Silk's adopted father, but there were \nreasons that he adopted him. Yes, he bought the embryo for an enormous \nsum. Remora says he knew he was buying something \"extraordinary\" \nalthough no else knew in what way.\n\n \"Most of the beasts, and men, are--ah--commonplace. Or nearly, eh? A\n few--um--monstrosities, eh? Pitiful. Or fearful. Extraordinary\n prices for those. Give ear now, Patera...This was common knowledge,\n eh? Fifteen years ago. The calde's folly, we called it. Forgotten\n now, hum? And you're not to speak about it to anyone, Patera. Not to\n stir it up, hey?..Before he--ah--collected his reward from the gods,\n Patera, the calde paid out a sum of that--um--magnitude, hey? But a\n human embryo. Something--ah--extraordinary...A successor, eh? Or\n an--ah--weapon. Nobody knows, Patera. The Ayuntamiento's no wiser\n than yourself, Patera, now that I've told you.\"\n\nMany readers seem to assume that the embryos were a total crap-shoot. \nYou paid for one and hoped for the best. But actually it is clear that \nthere were ways to know that that some of the embryos were guaranteed to \nbe \"extraordinary\". Those claimed much higher prices.\nBut WHY did Tussah buy it? There's no hint from the text that producing \na male heir was a worry for him. The fact is that he inexplicably (even \nto those who knew of it) wanted /that/ embryo. I say that Silk's birth \nrepeated, in a way, the birth of his \"original\". The calde \n(Typhon/Tussah) emplanted a clone in his mistress (Mother/Mamelta). And \nthis is the meaning of Tussah's announcement:\n\n \"Although he is not the son of my body, my son shall be calde' after\n me.\"\n\nTussah's successor /was/ his son. It was just the minor point that his \nson was not produced from his own body. But, I repeat, he /was/ his son. \nThat's a paradox, and this is the only resolution for it that I can \nthink of that doesn't drain the water from Tussah's declaration.\n\nu+16b9" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-20T20:46:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "<21251D3B-3750-49AC-A656-6B81CAA36566@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: Well, I hope this doesn't make you go away again. To the contrary, I \njust want to ensure you ideas are taken seriously and met with more than a shrug." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nJames, when I rejoined this List last year under this name, your cogent advice to \nthe \"new guy\" was that when people present their deeply well-thought out theories here, \nthey are most often ignored. People are mostly hoping their own theories will be recognized. \nThe greatest interest and response thus comes from those who want to ignore the parts \nof a new theory that have obvious value and pour themselves into undercutting what they\nperceive as the weaknesses. Some see this as an appropriate version of natural selection of\nideas, but not me. Much of what goes on is personality based. How persistent is the poster? How\nnasty are the opponents? In the real world, good ideas do not often stand soley on their own \nmerits. There are always human beings involved.\n \nI think really, really intelligent people tend to feel a bit isolated and alone in the \nworld and are thus more easily discouraged when their peers treat their ideas with\nharshness or dismissal. The casualties are not only people's feelings but some very \ngood ideas. Thus my ongoing crusade to encourage encouragement and constructive criticism\nand discourage discouragement and destructive criticism.\n \nMy previous posts suggested that WOlfe must be read at multiple levels. As such I think various\ntheories should not be seen as mutually exclusive. If apprentice Severian can be both a virgin \nand non-virgin depending on how you (or Bill Clinton) define sex, I think James and Marc's theories\ncan co-exist. Perhaps Wolfe consciously wrote his Sun series so that it could be parallel-read\nas both a Christian and Gnostic universe. I'm tracking both theories in my mind and finding both\nvery insightful and helpful to my overall understanding." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: My big big big question that needs resolving ASAP is how are Severian and Typhon related? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI agree this is a very important question. I have some inkling but not a crystal-clear view yet. For me\nthe relevant puzzle pieces are: \n \n1. The Mandragora- fetal man-dragon's conversation with Severian seems an important linkage.\n \n2. Severian's relationship to FATHER Inire.\n \n3. How are Father Inire and Typhon related? Did Typhon have a vizier? If so, I think he is easy to spot\nin UotNS. He may even make an appearance in Long/Short Sun. \n \nI'll leave it at that for now, with hopes others can provide insight.\n \n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<354871.88646.qm@web58204.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-21T00:03:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) my 9th grade sketches", "in_reply_to": "<6D591596-D12C-4095-A0A5-1B12943471CF@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "witz, I thought you might like this description of a sketch I had on my 9th grade english text book way back in ... 1991 or something. Too bad I don't have a picture of it. What attracted me about the new sun books, and always had, was the fascinating religious aspects, and these were obvious to me even as a child, as the description of my sketch will show.\n\nAt the top were some of my favorite lyrics from my church songs - remember me, when you come into your kingdom ... and?I will raise you up on the last day ... etc.\n\nAround these lyrics an enormous sun with angry dark flares around it, and the quotation\n\"a thousand ages in thy sight, are like an evening gone, short as the watch that ends the night, before the rising sun.\"? Below, Masked and cloaked Severian has one hand upraised with his sword pointing up and forward, and in his other hand the glowing claw.\n\nBut the light of the sun turns the shadow of the sword into a looming cross at the bottom of the page. Had that on my book for school all year, since they made us cover the school books with thick paper, probably from a grocery bag (think I read Shadow for the first time in the sixth grade or thereabouts). Thought you might appreciate that on a kids high school book. But the church songs always instantly brought to mind Sev.\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-21T00:46:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) my 9th grade sketches", "in_reply_to": "<354871.88646.qm@web58204.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 20, 2010, at 4:03 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\nwitz, I thought you might like this description of a sketch I had on my 9th grade english text book way back in ... 1991 or something. Too bad I don't have a picture of it. What attracted me about the new sun books, and always had, was the fascinating religious aspects, and these were obvious to me even as a child, as the description of my sketch will show.\n \nAt the top were some of my favorite lyrics from my church songs - remember me, when you come into your kingdom ... and I will raise you up on the last day ... etc.\n \nAround these lyrics an enormous sun with angry dark flares around it, and the quotation\n\"a thousand ages in thy sight, are like an evening gone, short as the watch that ends the night, before the rising sun.\" Below, Masked and cloaked Severian has one hand upraised with his sword pointing up and forward, and in his other hand the glowing claw.\n \nBut the light of the sun turns the shadow of the sword into a looming cross at the bottom of the page. Had that on my book for school all year, since they made us cover the school books with thick paper, probably from a grocery bag (think I read Shadow for the first time in the sixth grade or thereabouts). Thought you might appreciate that on a kids high school book. But the church songs always instantly brought to mind Sev." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That sounds excellent. Man, I have no idea what I would have made of New Sun in high school, much less 6th grade. A book I think New Sun must have inspired, Imagica by Clive Barker, was my favorite back then and I was drawing pictures of it's Quasi-Christ cum Autarch. Perhaps this is what lead me away from the blasphemous drawings I enjoyed doing then. I had a drawing of a second coming of Christ and posse bearing machine guns. It was pretty tame, all things considered.\nThanks for sharing. I wish it still existed to see.\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D100525.1080003@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-12-21T01:38:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 20/12/10 20:46, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nthe relevant puzzle pieces are:\n\n1. The Mandragora- fetal man-dragon's conversation with Severian seems an important linkage.\n\n2. Severian's relationship to FATHER Inire.\n\n3. How are Father Inire and Typhon related? Did Typhon have a vizier? If so, I think he is easy to spot\nin UotNS. He may even make an appearance in Long/Short Sun.\n\nI'll leave it at that for now, with hopes others can provide insight.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don't know if it's helpful or not but it appears to me at least that \ntoward the end of RTTW Cilinia / Scylla (a thirteen or fourteen year old \ngirl, who has suffered the huge misfortune of being born \nmale-chauvinist-pig Typhon's eldest child) finally lays herself to rest \nin a small casket ... in a mausoleum that Severian has already, several \nvolumes beforehand, determined is destined to be his own.\n\nAs Scylla / Cilinia tells us, she must have (physically) died not long \nafter she was 'downloaded' to become one of the major 'deities' of the \nWhorl. Her casket is tucked away in a corner of what Severian thinks of \nas *his own* mausoleum. I have to say I was quite perturbed by this on \nmy first (and so far only) reading of RTTW - strongly suggests that \nactually, Severian is a blood relative of Typhon, and will eventually, \nafter many time-travelling excursions, be interred in the Monarch's \nfamily monument.\n\nSev loathes Typhon and kills him at the first opportunity (giving the \nreader by the way an insight into why the 'Messiah' of Urth has to be a \ntrained executioner; he's been taught how to strike without holding \nback, and he does so once he knows what he has to strike at). How \nironical it would be if it turned out that Severian was actually \nTyphon's father, brother or uncle.\n\njd" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-21T01:57:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 3:46 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nJames Wynn: Well, I hope this doesn't make you go away again. To the contrary, I\njust want to ensure you ideas are taken seriously and met with more than a shrug." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James, when I rejoined this List last year under this name, your cogent advice to\nthe \"new guy\" was that when people present their deeply well-thought out theories here,\nthey are most often ignored. People are mostly hoping their own theories will be recognized.\nThe greatest interest and response thus comes from those who want to ignore the parts\nof a new theory that have obvious value and pour themselves into undercutting what they\nperceive as the weaknesses. Some see this as an appropriate version of natural selection of\nideas, but not me. Much of what goes on is personality based. How persistent is the poster? How\nnasty are the opponents? ?In the real world, good ideas do not often stand soley on their own\nmerits. There are always human beings involved." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see it as a problem due to interpretation being a very large problem\nwhich is also very loosely specified. When someone proposes a new\nGrand Unified Theory of the Long Sun or New Sun or what not, I read it\nonce to see whether there are any obvious knock-down problems with it.\nThere usually aren't because objections are subsumed under the loose\nparts, or because the poster is smart enough not to have made any\nsimple obvious mistakes.\n\nSo what am I supposed to do with this large comprehensive\nnot-obviously-wrong theory? It's almost certainly wrong since only a\nfew can be right and we have proposed hundreds of interpretations of\nparts. Basically, the answer is ignore it.\n\nNow, if there were some systematic comparison of theories, if there\nwere say 30 or 40 key points/criteria to grade an interpretation on,\nthen I could hope to deal with a new theory in a way which isn't\ntantamount to re-reading the entire damn work with an eye to that new\ninterpretation. I like think I've done something akin to this with my\ncollation of theories for \"Suzanne Delage\"\n(http://www.gwern.net/Suzanne%20Delage.html) and so any future\ndiscussion of SD could be more productive (or at least terminate more\nquickly), but no one has done anything similar with our favorite\ntopics of discussion. (Not surprising; it'd be a task comparable to\nwriting _Lexicon Urthus_.) So, silence it is." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nhttp://www.gwern.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-21T12:41:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gwern Branwen: So what am I supposed to do with this large comprehensive\nnot-obviously-wrong theory? It's almost certainly wrong since only a\nfew can be right and we have proposed hundreds of interpretations of\nparts. Basically, the answer is ignore it......So, silence it is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nGwern, I both agree and disagree. In the history of this List there have\nbeen hundreds of theories proposed. I don't agree that only a few can be \nright.\n \nWhat I think we have is like the parable of the elephant and the six \nblind men describing it by parts (it's like a \"hose\", \"spear\", \"fan\", \"wall\" \n\"tree trunk\",\"rope\"). Nobody has been able to singularly comprehend Gene Wolfe, so the\nonly comprehensive answer must come from an assemblage of different theories which \nseem incompatible on the surface.\n \nI think you are right that when a theory seems utterly useless: \"its like a hedge \ntrimmer!\"; the best, most polite response is silence. \n \nThis is not only polite but allows one to stay open to insight from others that one might \nnot initially grasp. Are there ways in which an elephant resembles a hedge trimmer? Could\nsuch an awareness improve one's understanding of an elephant? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-21T13:22:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jane Delawney- Don't know if it's helpful or not but it appears to me at least that \ntoward the end of RTTW Cilinia / Scylla (a thirteen or fourteen year old \ngirl, who has suffered the huge misfortune of being born male-chauvinist-pig Typhon's \neldest child) finally lays herself to rest in a small casket ... in a mausoleum that \nSeverian has already, several volumes beforehand, determined is destined to be his own." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThere has been some recent debate on whether this mausoleum is Severian's or another. I'm \nnot sure but I don't think it is out of the question that part of the hidden structure \nbeneath BotNS is the story of the conflict and connection between two \"families\" which might \nbe called House of Typhon and House of Severian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have to say I was quite perturbed by this on my first (and so far only) reading of RTTW - \nstrongly suggests that actually, Severian is a blood relative of Typhon, and will eventually, \nafter many time-travelling excursions, be interred in the Monarch's family monument....\nSev loathes Typhon and kills him at the first opportunity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHm. If this were simply an American tale I could see how Severian might simply be the humble son of\ncommoners Ouen and Catherine who managed to make good. We like that sort of thing. But since \nthe story seems to draw upon Medieval, Greek and Roman themes I guess there is more to Severian's \nlineage than is openly acknowledged. Be it Arthur or Aragorn, Theseus or Hercules, that noble/divine\nblood will out. (Even Jesus needed linkage to the House of David, yes?) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D10AED5.3020403@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-21T13:42:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jane Delawney- Don't know if it's helpful or not but it appears to me at\nleast that toward the end of RTTW Cilinia / Scylla (a thirteen or fourteen\nyear old girl, who has suffered the huge misfortune of being born\nmale-chauvinist-pig Typhon's eldest child) finally lays herself to rest in\na small casket ... in a mausoleum that Severian has already, several\nvolumes beforehand, determined is destined to be his own." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A careful comparison between the mausoleum Severian describes in Shadow \nof the Torturer and the mausoleum described in RttW, shows that the \nnumber of caskets and such do not appear to match up. I agree that the \nscene is all wrong. There's no discussion of a search and discovery. Sev \njust takes them to a mausoleum. What other tomb could it be really?\n\nI agree that it seems to me that his and Cilinia's tomb should be the \nsame. Possibly are. Maybe Wolfe just goofed or had something else in \nmind regarding a description of the tomb. I think Severian is a clone of \nFrog and the hero in the Tale of the Student and His Son. That's why he \nsaw his face in the tomb.\n\nBut the description of the tomb makes that very hard to prove.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-21T14:40:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "<4D10AED5.3020403@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: I think Severian is a clone of Frog and the hero in the Tale of the Student \nand His Son. That's why he saw his face in the tomb." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nJames, as I understand your theory, Spring Wind is Typhon so Frog (and Severian) would be\nas sons of Typhon.\n \nI'm not sure how the Student and His Son legend relates to Typhon though. You've noted that\nTyphon is modelled on Alexander while the Student/Son hero is quite modelled on Theseus (with\nmore emphasis on sailing, a sea labyrinth, and naval battling.\n \nDoes Frog's twin brother Fish figure into the picture in any way?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James- I agree that it seems to me that his and Cilinia's tomb should be the same. Possibly are. \nMaybe Wolfe just goofed or had something else in mind regarding a description of the tomb." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI've been noticing so many gnostic opposite pairings lately, like Severian-Typhon, Matachin\nTower-Witches Tower, Father Inire-Tzadkiel, Commonwealth-The Ship, I'm thinking paired mausoleums \nmay be Wolfe's intention rather than an error.\n \n \n \n[just a side note, in re-reading the Boy Called Frog story I notice that Spring Wind's soldiers\nwere, \"drilled until they seemed men of bronze, quickened with fire\". This and their loyalty to\nSpring Wind does sound much like Alexander's army (though they were long past the Bronze Age and\ninto the Iron Age).\n \nThe thing that really struck me is that \"bronze, quickened with fire\" is pretty much an exact \ndescription of the construction of mythical Talos. Coincidence in BotNS to have a character of this \nname? I'm not seeing a direct connection but Talos guarded Crete and can thus be associated with the \nheroic tales of Theseus and Jason.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wikipedia: students of Erich von Daniken and other \"ancient astronaut theorists\" speculate that Talos \nmay in fact have been a kind of extra-terrestrial weapon or flying machine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHeh.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D10BF25.6020601@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-21T14:52:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "<4D100525.1080003@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jane Delawney wrote (21-12-2010 01:38):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How ironical it would be if it turned out that Severian was actually\nTyphon's father, brother or uncle." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You may be on to something. Severian as an ancestor of Typhon sounds much\nmore interesting to me that Severian as a descendent of Typhon. (Please, I \nknow someone will try to explain he can be both. I know it. I don't like it \none bit.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<535998.67542.qm@web58207.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-21T15:00:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mostly this is a quick response to James Wynn about vines as the natural base state of the inhumi when they don't have blood to feed on - we both agree Dionysus is an important symbolic association in the book because of the strange nature of the vegetation. In 2002 or so the resistance I met every time I brought up trees was amazing, and now there seems to be less hostility to the theory that the neighbors are related to them.\n\nClearly, there are \"trees that eat trees\" on Green, the neighbors react badly when hunters go into the woods with axes, etc. the lianas are the brides of these trees. I just wanted to clarify that the lynchpin for this recognition of vine with primitive pre-human inhumi is the staff of Silk made from a liana.\n\nThe external fertilization described by the sexual habits of the inhumi seem to be either that of very low sea life or possibly vegetative in nature - spore + seed, etc. When Silk has his staff made of a liana, he can astral travel without an inhumi, the staff has a mouth and a face and thumps around at night. Inhumi can survive being buried for long periods of time.\nSo the staff is a stand in for the powers inhumi would grant him, and that's enough for me.\n\nSo anyway, hybridization is such an important theme, I always thought these vines assumed some of the mystical recombinatory stuff of the trees that eat trees through their parasitism, and then kind of took other essences from whatever they fed upon. There are inhumi on Blue and Green because there were once humans on?Blue and Green. Whatever these guys feed on, they come to resemble, even in the next generation. ?\n\nI think where James and I differ is that I don't like extratextual information unless it is explicitly referenced, as I am weak on myths in general. Sure, Herodotus can help your Latro. Gene rips off a lot of cool quotes from Proust. But drag in too much extra stuff and you run the risk that Gene has never read it (King Jesus). So I see Dionysus as a general symbol of the transmogrification of humanity, just like the Green Man, and I think this story is about how the next stage of humanity comes about.\n\nMarc\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D10C161.7070104@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-21T15:01:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn: I think Severian is a clone of Frog and the hero in the Tale of the Student\nand His Son. That's why he saw his face in the tomb." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee-\nJames, as I understand your theory, Spring Wind is Typhon so Frog (and Severian) would be as sons of Typhon. I'm not sure how the Student and His Son legend\nrelates to Typhon though.\nYou've noted that Typhon is modelled on Alexander while the Student/Son hero\nis quite modelled on Theseus (with more emphasis on sailing, a sea labyrinth,\nand naval battling." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhon is not JUST Alexander, anymore than Pas is JUST Pan. Typhon, I \nsuspect, is the Student. And, Severian \"brother/ancestor\" is the hero. \nWe are told the story of The Student and his Son which ends in the Son's \nreturn and the Student subsequently tumbling from his castle. And then, \na short time later, hello, Severian (sort of) returns to Typhon's \nmountain and Typhon goes tumbling down. This theory, of course, implies \nthat, at the beginning of tSotT, Erebus is dead and has been for some \ntime. It also implies that Frog's birth was not entirely natural." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does Frog's twin brother Fish figure into the picture in any way?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Fish certainly would identify where Severian's twin has gone. My \nworking theory is that Fish, Frog's twin, was a clone of Typhon. So, the \ntwin slain by his brother, ala Romulus/Remus, is a replayed when \nSeverian kills Typhon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've been noticing so many gnostic opposite pairings lately, like\nSeverian-Typhon, Matachin Tower-Witches Tower, Father Inire-Tzadkiel,\nCommonwealth-The Ship, I'm thinking paired mausoleums may be Wolfe's\nintention rather than an error." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[just a side note, in re-reading the Boy Called Frog story I notice that\nSpring Wind's soldiers were, \"drilled until they seemed men of bronze,\nquickened with fire\". This and their loyalty to Spring Wind does sound\nmuch like Alexander's army (though they were long past the Bronze Age and\ninto the Iron Age). The thing that really struck me is that \"bronze, quickened with fire\" is pretty much an exact description of the construction of mythical Talos. Coincidence in BotNS to have a character of this name? I'm not seeing a direct\nconnection but Talos guarded Crete and can thus be associated with the\nheroic tales of Theseus and Jason.]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It made me think of the taluses in The Book of the Long Sun.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-21T15:35:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "<4D10C161.7070104@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: Lee, just wanted to point out that in the snipets I quoted below, as far as \nNew Sun is concerned, it is very hard to look beneath to see anything beneficial or benevolent \nin Typhon's motives because of the very clear Satan tempting Jesus in the desert imagery. \n......The clear parallel is that if Sev failed here, he fails forever." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nMarc, I understand your perspective (I think). Mine differs only in being open to some alternate\nreligious interpretations. The Pelerine admonishes Severian for viewing ongoing events simply as\na battle between good and evil. I suspect the admonition is also for us readers.\n \nI think this came up earlier in a discussion with Antonio: If God is omniscient and omnipotent and \nhe has created the universe(s) from beginning to end in one act, then He has no choices. Everything\nis set, like a play. We humans, not being omniscient or omnipotent, feel we have free will and choices\nand from our perspective we do.\n \nBut, if we could stretch our brains a little and get a teeny glimpse of God's plan from His perspective\nwe would see that we are players on a stage, performing in set pieces exactly as God has written our roles.\nThere is no \"if Sev failed\". He didn't. He won't. He cannot. So it is written, So it shall be done.\n \nIn life we must also play our roles. We try to make good choices and defy Satan on a daily basis. But in \nour glimpses of the infinite, if we are capable of them, we can realize that Satan (Lucifer, David Stockton?) \nis a creation of God and thus not inherently \"evil\" but rather an actor, *faithfully* playing his assigned role.\n \n(I think the recently translated Gospel of Judas provides an eerie parallel to this. It didn't impact the Sun\nseries but I would be very interested in Gene Wolfe's opinion of it. I suspect he would nod, sagely.) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<7A50222D48514EA5A9AB7316FB2E970C@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-21T15:40:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "<21251D3B-3750-49AC-A656-6B81CAA36566@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " ----- Original Message ----- \n From: Son of Witz \n I think all of of us are disappointed that the text seems to present very different mausoleums.\n It isn't argued against based on aesthetics. Aesthetically, I think everyone wants it to be, but it seems like Wolfe chose differently for whatever reason.\nI'm quite okay with it being a completely different mausoleum, assuming it is. I see no obvious reason why Scylla should be connected to Severian. She died (in her first form) at least a millenium before his birth.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D10CE53.2010100@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-21T15:57:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (21-12-2010 15:35):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think this came up earlier in a discussion with Antonio: If God is omniscient and omnipotent and\nhe has created the universe(s) from beginning to end in one act, then He has no choices. Everything\nis set, like a play. We humans, not being omniscient or omnipotent, feel we have free will and choices\nand from our perspective we do." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I certainly don't remeber such an exhange." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D10D096.109@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-21T16:06:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vines", "in_reply_to": "<535998.67542.qm@web58207.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini-\nThe external fertilization described by the sexual habits of the \ninhumi seem to be either that of very low sea life or possibly \nvegetative in nature - spore + seed, etc. When Silk has his staff \nmade of a liana, he can astral travel without an inhumi, the staff has \na mouth and a face and thumps around at night. Inhumi can survive \nbeing buried for long periods of time.\nSo the staff is a stand in for the powers inhumi would grant him, and \nthat's enough for me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "More than that, Fava IIRC says it is an inhumi and that he talks to it \nat night. It's more than a stand in." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think where James and I differ is that I don't like extratextual \ninformation unless it is explicitly referenced, as I am weak on myths \nin general. Sure, Herodotus can help your Latro. Gene rips off a lot \nof cool quotes from Proust. But drag in too much extra stuff and you \nrun the risk that Gene has never read it (King Jesus). So I see \nDionysus as a general symbol of the transmogrification of humanity, \njust like the Green Man, and I think this story is about how the next \nstage of humanity comes about." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc, here's the reason I've found your hybridization theory \nunconvincing. It's too delicate. If I find a serious weakness with any \nsingle element (and I have), the whole thing collapses. It seems to me \nthat I have to accept every bit of it or reject the whole thing as a \ncul-de-sac.\n\nAlthough, I realize it seems I'm pulling stuff out of my butt when I \nmake certain references that, often, people didn't know existed or were \nonly vaguely aware of, I actually consider myself pretty careful about \nascribing sources to Wolfe.\n\nWolfe has read Herodotus. He's recommended Graves' \"The Greek Myths\", \nand I've found places in that particular reference where Wolfe seems to \nbe tracking both pretty closely to the text. He's read Pindar. Anyone \nwho reads the Aristaeus reference in Herodotus will recognize Silk or \nthe Rajan. Especially, if they've already caught all the fairly obvious \nApollo references. I've never read \"King Jesus\" myself and I believe \nWolfe has said he hasn't either.\n\nThe problem with accepting allusions (such as Dionysus) as textual \nevidence --I mean, the reason many people find such arguments \nunconvincing-- is that you must also show what Wolfe intended with \nsuch-and-such symbol. And that is an extrapolation that can be heavily \nsubjective. Marc, when you say \"Dionysus means different things to \ndifferent people. I think that's the reason Wolfe so often fails to \nconvey important elements of plot. He is assuming people will read an \nallusion the way _he_ does.\n\nWhen trying to decide what Dionysus means to Wolfe in \"Long/Short Sun\", \nI'm looking at the totality of the allusions Wolfe makes to him. \nAlthough Dionysus is strongly associated with the inhumi, he is also \nassociated with the Outsider and with Silk (or maybe the Rajan). Even if \none believes, as you do, that the Outsider is Pas & Kypris, that is a \nproblem. In short, it's a snake-pit.\n\nOn the other hand, the overlaying of the story with the Life of \nAristaeus (an inductee to the Dionysian , however, clean and easy to do \nor fail to do. It doesn't explain everything, but it gives me a \nwell-lighted place to look. So I feel that I know what I've seen when I \nfind it. And it keeps working. Years ago, on a lark, I suggested that \nthe story of the Whorl seemed vaguely referential to the story of Midas \nand his golden touch which led to a massive colonization effort to the \nland of the Hyperboreans. It's only recently that I learned that \nAristaeus was the supposed to be first descriptor of that land.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1B4C815114704F94B4C2F09B4EA57A63@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-21T16:15:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gwern Branwen: So what am I supposed to do with this large comprehensive\nnot-obviously-wrong theory? It's almost certainly wrong since only a\nfew can be right and we have proposed hundreds of interpretations of\nparts. Basically, the answer is ignore it......So, silence it is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If it's not obviously wrong, why not look at it more closely? Maybe it will \nconvince you, or maybe you will find something wrong with it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gwern, I both agree and disagree. In the history of this List there have\nbeen hundreds of theories proposed. I don't agree that only a few can be\nright.\n\nWhat I think we have is like the parable of the elephant and the six\nblind men describing it by parts (it's like a \"hose\", \"spear\", \"fan\", \n\"wall\"\n\"tree trunk\",\"rope\"). Nobody has been able to singularly comprehend Gene \nWolfe, so the\nonly comprehensive answer must come from an assemblage of different \ntheories which\nseem incompatible on the surface." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If we are to take the parable seriously, there *is* a good description \"an \nelephant\" which reconciles these varying partial explanations.\n\nOf course a literary work, unlike a physical object, need not necessarily \nhave such an explanation; it might be purposely or accidentally \ncontradictory. But if such a contradictory work is interesting enough to \nrepay study, it should still be possible to delineate which interpretations \nare more or less valid. (As it is with the optical illusions to which you \nfrequently refer.)\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-21T16:40:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "<1B4C815114704F94B4C2F09B4EA57A63@jill>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn- I see no obvious reason why Scylla should be connected to Severian. \nShe died (in her first form) at least a millenium before his birth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI don't think we have very much which is \"obvious\" left to discuss in Wolfe's work. Haven't \nwe moved on to the subtle and not so obvious? (like the antechamber being a spaceship)\n \nRecognizing Scylla's \"first form\" is important I think. But is it really her \"first\" form? \nDream travel seems to transform denizens of Blue into different forms. Inhumi to human for \nexample. The little girl who is the form of Scylla also happens to have snakes for arms. \nI suspect this is meant to demonstrate this is not just a normal human girl. She may have died \n1000 years before Severian but she was uploaded to god form in The Whorl and she also achieved \nmonster status and mountainous size in the oceans of Urth.\n \nScylla is mentioned in BotNS: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Saltus Caloyer: \"...You the hero who will destroy the black worm that devours the sun;...you \nwhose breath shall wither vast Erebus, Abaia and Scylla who wallow beneath the wave..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nScylla is conflated again with Erebus and Abaia at the end of RttW. We know these guys are capable \nof pinching off human-shaped versions of themselves. Severian even interacts with one of human size \non The Ship named Idas. He has a deeply erotic attraction to another in Juturna. Similar stuff is\nhappening on Blue with The Mother.\n \nIf such pinchings and clonings and interactions with the human race have been going on for 1000 years, \nit may not be obvious that Severian is related to Scylla and her ilk but a mechanism for it to happen \nseems very clearly illustrated. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-21T16:45:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nHm. If this were simply an American tale I could see how Severian might simply be the humble son of\ncommoners Ouen and Catherine who managed to make good. We like that sort of thing. “But since\nthe story seems to draw upon Medieval, Greek and Roman themes I guess there is more to Severian's\nlineage than is openly acknowledged. Be it Arthur or Aragorn, Theseus or Hercules, that noble/divine\nblood will out. (Even Jesus needed linkage to the House of David, yes”)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Severian is the son of Ouen and Catherine (but that Catherine\nisn't a commoner). If he were not, Wolfe really would be leading us up\na garden path. (We know of Catherine only through Ouen; and Ouen only\nseems significant because of his similarity to Severian, both\nphysically and in powers of memory, so if they're not Severian's\nbiological parents, that whole episode becomes pointless.) I think we\nare probably meant to see other relations of Sefverian turning up\nthrough the series, and revealing more about his family - though I'm\nnot sure who they all are; the moral, I suspect, is that Severian is\nlinked to many kinds and classes of people in the Commonwealth, thus\nillustrating Malrubius' claim that in him the disparate tendencies of\nUrth have been reconciled. He may well be descended from Typhon -\nindeed if Typhon has left descendants at all, he probably is - but\nmaking him the son of Typhon, through cloning or time travel or the\nlike, messes this story up. That he's the father of Typhon is not\nproblematic in the same way (though it would have to be reconciled\nsomehow with Typhon's claim that he he was not born).\n\nAs for the mausoleum; I take it that this is the tomb of a Severian\nwho has already experienced the events of BOTNS, and has travelled\nback to the past for some reason. The emblem of rose, ship and\nfountain certainly suggests this. At the end of COTA he proposes that\nboth the face in the mausoleum and Apu-Punchau are the time-travelling\n'first Severian'. He is, as it turns out, wrong about Apu-Punchau, who\nis himself; and he may be wrong about the mausoleum as well; but I\ntake it he's right that both are time-travelling versions of himself.\nWe aren't told the details of what happened with the mausoleum, but we\ndo know he intends to make more trips to the past." } ] }, { "message_id": "<449861.72084.qm@web84103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-21T17:01:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vines", "in_reply_to": "<535998.67542.qm@web58207.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're right, Marc---I've never seen any theories on how the Green Man got his green. I always assumed it was via a more or less recognizable technology.\nBut this pathway is quite plausible. Of course it has little to do with Ushas and the New Sun ....\n\n--- On Tue, 12/21/10, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\nFrom: Marc Aramini \nSubject: (urth) vines\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, December 21, 2010, 10:00 AM\n\n\nMostly this is a quick response to James Wynn about vines as the natural base state of the inhumi when they don't have blood to feed on - we both agree Dionysus is an important symbolic association in the book because of the strange nature of the vegetation. In 2002 or so the resistance I met every time I brought up trees was amazing, and now there seems to be less hostility to the theory that the neighbors are related to them.\n\nClearly, there are \"trees that eat trees\" on Green, the neighbors react badly when hunters go into the woods with axes, etc. the lianas are the brides of these trees. I just wanted to clarify that the lynchpin for this recognition of vine with primitive pre-human inhumi is the staff of Silk made from a liana.\n\nThe external fertilization described by the sexual habits of the inhumi seem to be either that of very low sea life or possibly vegetative in nature - spore + seed, etc. When Silk has his staff made of a liana, he can astral travel without an inhumi, the staff has a mouth and a face and thumps around at night. Inhumi can survive being buried for long periods of time.\nSo the staff is a stand in for the powers inhumi would grant him, and that's enough for me.\n\nSo anyway, hybridization is such an important theme, I always thought these vines assumed some of the mystical recombinatory stuff of the trees that eat trees through their parasitism, and then kind of took other essences from whatever they fed upon. There are inhumi on Blue and Green because there were once humans on?Blue and Green. Whatever these guys feed on, they come to resemble, even in the next generation. ?\n\nI think where James and I differ is that I don't like extratextual information unless it is explicitly referenced, as I am weak on myths in general. Sure, Herodotus can help your Latro. Gene rips off a lot of cool quotes from Proust. But drag in too much extra stuff and you run the risk that Gene has never read it (King Jesus). So I see Dionysus as a general symbol of the transmogrification of humanity, just like the Green Man, and I think this story is about how the next stage of humanity comes about.\n\nMarc\n\n\n \n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D10E188.6000105@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-21T17:19:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Severian is the son of Ouen and Catherine (but that Catherine\nisn't a commoner). If he were not, Wolfe really would be leading us up\na garden path. (We know of Catherine only through Ouen; and Ouen only\nseems significant because of his similarity to Severian, both\nphysically and in powers of memory, so if they're not Severian's\nbiological parents, that whole episode becomes pointless.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not pointless. It connects Severian to Dorcas. But Severian helping \nhis biological father find his mother, but never finding his his \nbiological mother strikes me as really weird story-telling. Wolfe thinks \nthe The Book of the Short Sun would be \"lame\" if, once we know the Rajan \ncan travel to Urth, he does not meet with Severian. But it seems fine to \nhim that his mother is just a name? I don't buy it. If people are \nsuspicious, they should be." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think we\nare probably meant to see other relations of Sefverian turning up\nthrough the series, and revealing more about his family - though I'm\nnot sure who they all are; the moral, I suspect, is that Severian is\nlinked to many kinds and classes of people in the Commonwealth, thus\nillustrating Malrubius' claim that in him the disparate tendencies of\nUrth have been reconciled. He may well be descended from Typhon -\nindeed if Typhon has left descendants at all, he probably is - but\nmaking him the son of Typhon, through cloning or time travel or the\nlike, messes this story up." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now we're getting into matters of taste. If I read this novel \n\"straight\", I would hate it. The first time I read it in fact (it was my \nfirst Wolfe book) I told the guy who recommended it that Wolfe is a \nso-so writer but an amazing creator of worlds. Then I read The Fifth \nHead of Cerberus and it completely changed my reading of \"New Sun\". I \nrealized that I had approached the first book all wrong. I told my \nfriend that my opinion had changed. I now considered Wolfe possibly the \nbest science fiction writer period.\n\nIf Severian is understood as somehow directly associated with the myths \nin the Brown Book, it restores a scattered unfocused unedited brain dump \nback to a comprehensible narrative." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That he's the father of Typhon is not\nproblematic in the same way (though it would have to be reconciled\nsomehow with Typhon's claim that he he was not born)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm curious why you think this would not \"mess the story up\" as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for the mausoleum; I take it that this is the tomb of a Severian\nwho has already experienced the events of BOTNS, and has travelled\nback to the past for some reason. The emblem of rose, ship and\nfountain certainly suggests this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that for the Rose, Ship, and Fountain to have NOT originally had \nto do intentionally with Severian --but only adopted-- is implied by the \noverall thesis throughout the book regarding symbols and their meaning. \nIt is also a favorite Wolfean trope. Gerry brought up Peace this \nmorning. In that story, Louis Black create fraudulent book. But in \nfollowing it, Weer ultimately finds the treasure. In The Fifth Head of \nCerberus, it is the false anthropologist who discovers and writes the \ntruth about the abos. The false Horn completes Horn's mission. The \nmistake becomes authoritative. The lie is more true that anyone \nimagines. Probably, you see no similarity in these instances, but each \ntime I encounter them, they appear to me to be characteristically Wolfean.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-21T17:19:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "<4D10E188.6000105@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What I think we have is like the parable of the elephant and the six blind men describing it \nby parts (it's like a \"hose\", \"spear\", \"fan\", \"wall\" \"tree trunk\",\"rope\")." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn- If we are to take the parable seriously, there *is* a good description \"an \nelephant\" which reconciles these varying partial explanations." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNo, you miss the point of the analogy here. There is only a \"good\" description of the\nentirety of the elephant if there is a sighted man present. Each blind man \"sees\" with\nhis hands and can never \"see\" the entirety of something as large as an elephant. A sighted\nman can step back and see the whole animal.\n \nGerry, by setting yourself up as a valid judge of rightness or validity, you are suggesting\nyou are the only sighted man in a roomful of blind guys and their theories. Are you Gene Wolfe?\n \nIf we are attempting to discern Gene Wolfe's intentions (as I am) I would say only Gene Wolfe can\nbe said to be a sighted man, and he ain't talking (much). So, seriously Gerry, are you him?\n \nIf we are all not-Gene Wolfe here I think we are all equally blind men and our only hope is to\nrely on each other. I see every other contributor here as sane, intelligent and familiar with \nGene Wolfe. If I tell them their ideas are wrong I'm suggesting they are either stupid, unfamiliar\nwith Wolfe or mentally ill.\n \nI am suggesting that if you have made a detailed study of the elephant's leg and know each wrinkle, hair\nand toenail, I'm not going to dismiss your ideas because they don't fit in with my study of the trunk. I\nthink we should all admit that none of us have the capacity to grasp the elephant as a whole.\n \nI am also hesitant to dismiss the loon who is wandering about, not even touching the elephant. His discovery \nof gaps in the nearby foliage might make his \"hedge trimmer\" theory at least as relevant to understand the\nelephant as the theory of the guy studying the tail.\n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-21T17:28:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Dec 21, 2010, at 8:45 AM, Andrew Mason wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hm. If this were simply an American tale I could see how Severian might simply be the humble son of\ncommoners Ouen and Catherine who managed to make good. We like that sort of thing. But since\nthe story seems to draw upon Medieval, Greek and Roman themes I guess there is more to Severian's\nlineage than is openly acknowledged. Be it Arthur or Aragorn, Theseus or Hercules, that noble/divine\nblood will out. (Even Jesus needed linkage to the House of David, yes?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Severian is the son of Ouen and Catherine (but that Catherine\nisn't a commoner). If he were not, Wolfe really would be leading us up\na garden path. (We know of Catherine only through Ouen; and Ouen only\nseems significant because of his similarity to Severian, both\nphysically and in powers of memory, so if they're not Severian's\nbiological parents, that whole episode becomes pointless.) I think we\nare probably meant to see other relations of Sefverian turning up\nthrough the series, and revealing more about his family - though I'm\nnot sure who they all are; the moral, I suspect, is that Severian is\nlinked to many kinds and classes of people in the Commonwealth, thus\nillustrating Malrubius' claim that in him the disparate tendencies of\nUrth have been reconciled. He may well be descended from Typhon -\nindeed if Typhon has left descendants at all, he probably is - but\nmaking him the son of Typhon, through cloning or time travel or the\nlike, messes this story up. That he's the father of Typhon is not\nproblematic in the same way (though it would have to be reconciled\nsomehow with Typhon's claim that he he was not born).\n\nAs for the mausoleum; I take it that this is the tomb of a Severian\nwho has already experienced the events of BOTNS, and has travelled\nback to the past for some reason. The emblem of rose, ship and\nfountain certainly suggests this. At the end of COTA he proposes that\nboth the face in the mausoleum and Apu-Punchau are the time-travelling\n'first Severian'. He is, as it turns out, wrong about Apu-Punchau, who\nis himself; and he may be wrong about the mausoleum as well; but I\ntake it he's right that both are time-travelling versions of himself.\nWe aren't told the details of what happened with the mausoleum, but we\ndo know he intends to make more trips to the past." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm pretty much in sync with this layout, Lee.\n\nCan someone bust out the RttW mausoleum quotation? I don't have the text around and I've only read it once. Does it say it is Typhon's tomb, or his family's specifically?\n\nIn the initial descriptions of the Necropolis in Shadow, Severian says \"Our necropolis is said to be the oldest in Nessus. That is certainly false, but the very existence of the error testifies to a real antiquity, though the autarchs were not buried there even when the Citadel was their stronghold, and the great families - then as now - preferred to inter their long-limbed dead in vaults on their own estates.\"\n\nAutarchs and great families were not burried there.\n\nThen there is the *clue* about the false assertion of the age of the necropolis.\nWhen Severian returns to the Citadel in UotNS, he is marched as a prisoner from the river, with steps much like where he swam, then up a wooded hill, then, to his surprise, to the Curtain Wall of the Citadel and the Sally Port later known as the Corpse Door. The Necropolis is not described at all, and if it was there, Severian would have recognized his location before the shock of the Wall, which he initially thinks is the Wall of Nessus. This suggests that the necropolis was either not founded yet, or hadn't yet spread that far. The mention of the error compells me to think there is no necropolis yet, though the narrator does not have the \"Citadel Again\" experience from UotNS, so if it is a hint, I don't know how Severian knows yet. Perhaps it is just a presentiment of his past-future.\n\n~Witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D10E3F8.7060005@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-21T17:29:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (21-12-2010 17:19):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry, by setting yourself up as a valid judge of rightness or validity,\nyou are suggesting you are the only sighted man in a roomful of blind\nguys and their theories." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, he's asking people not to describe the elephant's tail as spiky." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D10E43C.7080900@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-21T17:30:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (21-12-2010 17:19):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I see every other contributor here as sane, intelligent and familiar\nwith Gene Wolfe. If I tell them their ideas are wrong I'm suggesting they\nare either stupid, unfamiliar with Wolfe or mentally ill." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This dichotomy is seriously troubling." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D10E557.1090506@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-21T17:35:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (21-12-2010 17:19):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am suggesting that if you have made a detailed study of the elephant's leg and know each wrinkle, hair\nand toenail, I'm not going to dismiss your ideas because they don't fit in with my study of the trunk." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You keep bringing this up, that people 'attack' your ideas because they have \ndifferent ones. Repeating it to exhaustion doesn't make it any more cogent.\n\nI don't understand what it is that you want others to do. If you say \nSeverian went left, you say you're prepared to discuss what if he went right \ninstead, but take offense at the suggestion that he went up or not anywhere?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<800A22D0-145F-44BC-8034-E981DD03CB02@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-21T17:36:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "<4D10E188.6000105@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is getting really interesting...\nGood post, James.\nI don't know the Long-Short lineage stuff, so I can't judge yet.\nThis bit you wrote lit my head up, can you elaborate?\n\"\"If Severian is understood as somehow directly associated with the myths in the Brown Book, it restores a scattered unfocused unedited brain dump back to a comprehensible narrative. \"\n\nI would love for that to hold water. How is he related to the book in your view? I really don't know the Classics well enough to spot certain heroic analogies here. What was that about him being Frog or suchlike?\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 21, 2010, at 9:19 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think Severian is the son of Ouen and Catherine (but that Catherine\nisn't a commoner). If he were not, Wolfe really would be leading us up\na garden path. (We know of Catherine only through Ouen; and Ouen only\nseems significant because of his similarity to Severian, both\nphysically and in powers of memory, so if they're not Severian's\nbiological parents, that whole episode becomes pointless.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's not pointless. It connects Severian to Dorcas. But Severian helping his biological father find his mother, but never finding his his biological mother strikes me as really weird story-telling. Wolfe thinks the The Book of the Short Sun would be \"lame\" if, once we know the Rajan can travel to Urth, he does not meet with Severian. But it seems fine to him that his mother is just a name? I don't buy it. If people are suspicious, they should be." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think we\nare probably meant to see other relations of Sefverian turning up\nthrough the series, and revealing more about his family - though I'm\nnot sure who they all are; the moral, I suspect, is that Severian is\nlinked to many kinds and classes of people in the Commonwealth, thus\nillustrating Malrubius' claim that in him the disparate tendencies of\nUrth have been reconciled. He may well be descended from Typhon -\nindeed if Typhon has left descendants at all, he probably is - but\nmaking him the son of Typhon, through cloning or time travel or the\nlike, messes this story up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now we're getting into matters of taste. If I read this novel \"straight\", I would hate it. The first time I read it in fact (it was my first Wolfe book) I told the guy who recommended it that Wolfe is a so-so writer but an amazing creator of worlds. Then I read The Fifth Head of Cerberus and it completely changed my reading of \"New Sun\". I realized that I had approached the first book all wrong. I told my friend that my opinion had changed. I now considered Wolfe possibly the best science fiction writer period.\n\nIf Severian is understood as somehow directly associated with the myths in the Brown Book, it restores a scattered unfocused unedited brain dump back to a comprehensible narrative." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That he's the father of Typhon is not\nproblematic in the same way (though it would have to be reconciled\nsomehow with Typhon's claim that he he was not born)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm curious why you think this would not \"mess the story up\" as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As for the mausoleum; I take it that this is the tomb of a Severian\nwho has already experienced the events of BOTNS, and has travelled\nback to the past for some reason. The emblem of rose, ship and\nfountain certainly suggests this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that for the Rose, Ship, and Fountain to have NOT originally had to do intentionally with Severian --but only adopted-- is implied by the overall thesis throughout the book regarding symbols and their meaning. It is also a favorite Wolfean trope. Gerry brought up Peace this morning. In that story, Louis Black create fraudulent book. But in following it, Weer ultimately finds the treasure. In The Fifth Head of Cerberus, it is the false anthropologist who discovers and writes the truth about the abos. The false Horn completes Horn's mission. The mistake becomes authoritative. The lie is more true that anyone imagines. Probably, you see no similarity in these instances, but each time I encounter them, they appear to me to be characteristically Wolfean.\n\nu+16b9\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<803A1688-FE2C-41A6-95B3-9A9947A43062@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-21T17:44:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee, Gerry's point is valid. There IS a better description of the elephant.\nHe does NOT put himself in the shoes of this \"Sighted Man\".\n\nI see it more like:\n\nLee: (holding the tail) \"This tail is far out, I think this must be a Hermaphrodon, the beast with both genders!\"\nAnd, Gerry, who has made an exhaustive search up that leg says, \"no, no no, I've got a firm GRASP on this beast's sex. It is NOT a Hermaphrodon.\"\n\nNone of us has the whole map, but if we share and dispute, we might come to an accurate description of the Elephant in the Book.\n\n~Witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 21, 2010, at 9:19 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What I think we have is like the parable of the elephant and the six blind men describing it \nby parts (it's like a \"hose\", \"spear\", \"fan\", \"wall\" \"tree trunk\",\"rope\")." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn- If we are to take the parable seriously, there *is* a good description \"an \nelephant\" which reconciles these varying partial explanations." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, you miss the point of the analogy here. There is only a \"good\" description of the\nentirety of the elephant if there is a sighted man present. Each blind man \"sees\" with\nhis hands and can never \"see\" the entirety of something as large as an elephant. A sighted\nman can step back and see the whole animal.\n\nGerry, by setting yourself up as a valid judge of rightness or validity, you are suggesting\nyou are the only sighted man in a roomful of blind guys and their theories. Are you Gene Wolfe?\n\nIf we are attempting to discern Gene Wolfe's intentions (as I am) I would say only Gene Wolfe can\nbe said to be a sighted man, and he ain't talking (much). So, seriously Gerry, are you him?\n\nIf we are all not-Gene Wolfe here I think we are all equally blind men and our only hope is to\nrely on each other. I see every other contributor here as sane, intelligent and familiar with \nGene Wolfe. If I tell them their ideas are wrong I'm suggesting they are either stupid, unfamiliar\nwith Wolfe or mentally ill.\n\nI am suggesting that if you have made a detailed study of the elephant's leg and know each wrinkle, hair\nand toenail, I'm not going to dismiss your ideas because they don't fit in with my study of the trunk. I\nthink we should all admit that none of us have the capacity to grasp the elephant as a whole.\n\nI am also hesitant to dismiss the loon who is wandering about, not even touching the elephant. His discovery \nof gaps in the nearby foliage might make his \"hedge trimmer\" theory at least as relevant to understand the\nelephant as the theory of the guy studying the tail.\n\n \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-21T17:57:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "<803A1688-FE2C-41A6-95B3-9A9947A43062@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason- the moral, I suspect, is that Severian is linked to many kinds and classes \nof people in the Commonwealth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThis sounds almost Dickensian. And in an interview, Gene Wolfe has said that as an only child\nhe often spent his time people-watching, looking at faces for hints of unknown relatives, missing \nsiblings etc. (in a stretch this could be a hint at Gene Wolfe's wondering about his own father's \nhabits, which has influenced some of my thinking in regard to Father Inire, but I'll leave it at \nthat).\n \nI can generally agree but, since this is SF I can't see restricting the genealogy to the Commonwealth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff- So anyway, hybridization is such an important theme..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIn so many ways. Hybrids always make the best Conciliators. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D10ED34.9010103@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-21T18:08:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "<800A22D0-145F-44BC-8034-E981DD03CB02@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/21/2010 11:36 AM, Son of Witz wrote:\nThis is getting really interesting...\nGood post, James.\nI don't know the Long-Short lineage stuff, so I can't judge yet.\nThis bit you wrote lit my head up, can you elaborate?\n\"\"If Severian is understood as somehow directly associated with the myths in the Brown Book, it restores a scattered unfocused unedited brain dump back to a comprehensible narrative.\"\n\nI would love for that to hold water. How is he related to the book in your view? I really don't know the Classics well enough to spot certain heroic analogies here. What was that about him being Frog or suchlike?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe that Spring Wind in the Story of Frog is Typhon. Some \nstory-teller read the story of Romulus and fragments of the Jungle Books \nand said, \"Oh, these are /obviously/ just a retelling of the story of \nTyphon's son. These other versions add a little bit of flavor missing \nfrom the version I'm familiar with. It even gives the name of Frog's \nmother and grandmother and a twist on the motive. I'll combine all this \ninto an authoritative telling.\"\n\nMythologists make such cognitive leaps all the time. They always have. \n\"Jehovah is just Dionysus\" [Tacitus]. \"Jesus is just Mithras\". \"Merlin \nis just Odin.\" Etcetera. Wolfe has imagined this happening the distant \nfuture. Typhon has become myth, just as Arthur and Alexander the Great did.\n\nIn The Story of the Student and his Son, I believe the Student is Typhon \nagain. I believe this because Wolfe reminds us of that story when \nSeverian encounters him. Wolfe does a feint, associating Typhon with the \nogre. But, then, in a few pages, he tumbles from his castle. This is \nanalogous, in a mythical sense, to the Student tumbling from his castle \nat the Son's return. And so in a sense, Typhon has become Severian's \ndefeated ogre as well. Very Wolfean, at least in the way I read him.\n\nBut if Typhon is the Student and Spring Wind, /who is Severian/? How can \nhe be Typhon's son, since that is the role he seems to play? I can't get \nthere with Severian going back in Time. Off the top of my head, I can \nonly get there by guessing that Severian is /biologically/ the same \nperson. So that's what I say. Severian is a clone of Frog. Fish is \nSeverian's lost twin that is referenced shortly before Sev reads the \nStory of Frog. It's possible he has others in the story. But that is one \nof them.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-21T18:22:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "<4D10ED34.9010103@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son o' Witz- Lee, Gerry's point is valid. There IS a better description of the elephant.\nHe does NOT put himself in the shoes of this \"Sighted Man\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I see it more like:\nLee: (holding the tail) \"This tail is far out, I think this must be a Hermaphrodon, \nthe beast with both genders!\" And, Gerry, who has made an exhaustive search up that leg says, \n\"no, no no, I've got a firm GRASP on this beast's sex. It is NOT a Hermaphrodon.\"\nNone of us has the whole map, but if we share and dispute, we might come to an accurate \ndescription of the Elephant in the Book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI'd have no problem if the discussion were along those lines. My objection is illustrated\nby Antonio's post who, when confronted with a contributor who observes \"the tail seems spiky\"\nwould respond, \"no it isn't\"\n \nGerry, based on recent history, would be more likely to respond, \"since we are dealing with an\nelephant, I find it highly improbable that the tail is spiky\"\n \nNeither of these guys seems capable of making the intuitive leap to, \"perhaps we are not dealing\nwith an elephant. Perhaps this is a stegosaurus. Let's look into this.\" Rejection and denial is\nlike an automatic reflex. They have the right to express this reflex but I have the right to object\nto its expression.\n \nI'm suggesting that if you think you have Gene Wolfe's work pretty much figured out as\nan elephant, then that's all you'll ever get. And that's fine if that's all you want. But why\ntry to discourage others from exploring richer, more imaginative interpretations? \n \nAs I previously suggested, I think genius is a very delicate thing. I don't like seeing it stepped \nupon for no good reason. I may not be capable of great intuitive leaps myself but I don't like \nbeing denied the opportunity to review the thoughts of others who are more gifted. And I've seen\nmore than one person leave this List in sadness and disgust at the way their ideas are treated. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-21T18:28:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "<4D10ED34.9010103@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 21, 2010, at 10:08 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 12/21/2010 11:36 AM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is getting really interesting...\nGood post, James.\nI don't know the Long-Short lineage stuff, so I can't judge yet.\nThis bit you wrote lit my head up, can you elaborate?\n\"\"If Severian is understood as somehow directly associated with the myths in the Brown Book, it restores a scattered unfocused unedited brain dump back to a comprehensible narrative.\"\n\nI would love for that to hold water. How is he related to the book in your view? I really don't know the Classics well enough to spot certain heroic analogies here. What was that about him being Frog or suchlike?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe that Spring Wind in the Story of Frog is Typhon. Some story-teller read the story of Romulus and fragments of the Jungle Books and said, \"Oh, these are /obviously/ just a retelling of the story of Typhon's son. These other versions add a little bit of flavor missing from the version I'm familiar with. It even gives the name of Frog's mother and grandmother and a twist on the motive. I'll combine all this into an authoritative telling.\"\n\nMythologists make such cognitive leaps all the time. They always have. \"Jehovah is just Dionysus\" [Tacitus]. \"Jesus is just Mithras\". \"Merlin is just Odin.\" Etcetera. Wolfe has imagined this happening the distant future. Typhon has become myth, just as Arthur and Alexander the Great did.\n\nIn The Story of the Student and his Son, I believe the Student is Typhon again. I believe this because Wolfe reminds us of that story when Severian encounters him. Wolfe does a feint, associating Typhon with the ogre. But, then, in a few pages, he tumbles from his castle. This is analogous, in a mythical sense, to the Student tumbling from his castle at the Son's return. And so in a sense, Typhon has become Severian's defeated ogre as well. Very Wolfean, at least in the way I read him.\n\nBut if Typhon is the Student and Spring Wind, /who is Severian/? How can he be Typhon's son, since that is the role he seems to play? I can't get there with Severian going back in Time. Off the top of my head, I can only get there by guessing that Severian is /biologically/ the same person. So that's what I say. Severian is a clone of Frog. Fish is Severian's lost twin that is referenced shortly before Sev reads the Story of Frog. It's possible he has others in the story. But that is one of them.\n\nu+16b9" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I never really got that story. You might be onto something there. I love the idea that Severian is in that book. I'm not sure about all that stuff about founding the wall and stuff. Somehow I always associated that with Typhon, though intuituively without any reasoning.\nI will keep this in mind." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D10F221.6000509@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-21T18:29:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (21-12-2010 18:22):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd have no problem if the discussion were along those lines. My objection is illustrated\nby Antonio's post who, when confronted with a contributor who observes \"the tail seems spiky\"\nwould respond, \"no it isn't\"\n\nGerry, based on recent history, would be more likely to respond, \"since we are dealing with an\nelephant, I find it highly improbable that the tail is spiky\"\n\nNeither of these guys seems capable of making the intuitive leap to, \"perhaps we are not dealing\nwith an elephant. Perhaps this is a stegosaurus. Let's look into this.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Into the spiky tail which you'll admit yourself has no spikes since spikes \nare unimportant details in the broad pciture of the spiky tail? If you wish \nto posit a stegosaur, do. Only posit a stegosaur without apparent spikes in \nits tail, instead of relying on spikes that you see aren't there in order to \npush the idea it's a stegosaur.\n\nThinking you're looking at the stars doesn't entitle you to trample the \nthings on the floor level." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-21T18:30:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "<4D10F221.6000509@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The elephant is soft and mushy and smells bad." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-21T18:31:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 21, 2010, at 10:22 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nAnd I've seen\nmore than one person leave this List in sadness and disgust at the way their ideas are treated." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So I'm told, and so it seems.\nI get sensitive myself. We all need to keep thick skin when dealing with the impersonality of the internet and the fact that it is soooo easy to be nasty when we don't have to face each other." } ] }, { "message_id": "<14A96B4D416C49968F9A25F8374922DF@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-21T21:17:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) vines", "in_reply_to": "<449861.72084.qm@web84103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " The Green Man tells us:\n\n\"The green color that puzzles your people so much is only what you call pond scum. We have altered it until it can live in our blood, and by its intervention have at last made our peace in humankind's long struggle with the sun. In us, the tiny plants live and die, and our bodies feed from them and their dead and require no other nourishment\"\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n ----- Original Message ----- \n From: DAVID STOCKHOFF \n You're right, Marc---I've never seen any theories on how the Green Man got his green. I always assumed it was via a more or less recognizable technology. \n\n\n But this pathway is quite plausible. Of course it has little to do with Ushas and the New Sun ...." } ] }, { "message_id": "<50F74698A430487FA92DF157AA61B97B@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-21T21:32:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nSon o' Witz- Lee, Gerry's point is valid. There IS a better description of \nthe elephant.\nHe does NOT put himself in the shoes of this \"Sighted Man\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "None of us has the whole map, but if we share and dispute, we might come \nto an accurate\ndescription of the Elephant in the Book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly. The blind men can indeed figure out what the creature is, even \nthough they don't have it as easy as the sighted guy.\n\nIt may be an elephant, or it may be a stegosaurus, or it may be something \nelse altogether. They'll never find out, unless they challenge each others' \npartial interpretations, and come up with a reasonably consistent synthesis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd have no problem if the discussion were along those lines. My objection \nis illustrated\nby Antonio's post who, when confronted with a contributor who observes \n\"the tail seems spiky\"\nwould respond, \"no it isn't\"\n\nGerry, based on recent history, would be more likely to respond, \"since we \nare dealing with an\nelephant, I find it highly improbable that the tail is spiky\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think that fairly characterises the sort of argument I've been \nmaking." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Neither of these guys seems capable of making the intuitive leap to, \n\"perhaps we are not dealing\nwith an elephant. Perhaps this is a stegosaurus. Let's look into this.\" \nRejection and denial is\nlike an automatic reflex. They have the right to express this reflex but I \nhave the right to object\nto its expression." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think we're just asking you to clearly make the case for it being a \nstegosaurus, and explain the trumpeting sound and what this thing is that we \nthought was a trunk." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm suggesting that if you think you have Gene Wolfe's work pretty much \nfigured out as\nan elephant, then that's all you'll ever get. And that's fine if that's \nall you want. But why\ntry to discourage others from exploring richer, more imaginative \ninterpretations?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Richer, more imaginative interpretations\"... are you saying value \njudgements are acceptable after all?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-22T02:06:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "<50F74698A430487FA92DF157AA61B97B@jill>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I *don't* think Wolfe throws things together randomly. So I try to find an \ninterpretation that fits the different clues." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nGerry you really seem like a decent chap trying to understand the viewpoint of others, \nincluding me, but I'm really not sure what more I can say to help you. Your statement above \nreally forms the crux of our differences. \n \nI have tried the optical illusion analogy. How can you weigh the evidence to decide if the\ncorrect interpretation of the picture is a young woman or an old crone?\n \nI have tried the Niagra Falls analogy. It can be viewed from many different angles, each \none providing new aspects of wonderment without ruining or being superior to other angles.\n \nI have tried the blind men and the elephant. I have tried the 7 simultaneous levels of Authority \nmodel from BotNS. \n \nNothing works for you. You keep insisting there is \"*an* interpretation\" that fits all the different \nclues. One and only one best interpretation.\n \n \nI was thinking of using a symphony orchestra example and trying to explain the horribly limited \nnature of singling out the violas as the \"best interpretation\" of what the symphony is all about and\nfinding the other instruments..\"unlikely\".\n \nI just don't think it will help. If it does, that's great. But I don't think I have too many more\nillustrations available to demonstrate the value of simultaneous multiple viewpoints as a deeper, \nricher way of appreciating art. Either you get it or you don't get it. Perhaps Wolfe is not art for \nyou. Or perhaps all art is, for you, just another math problem with a single highest probability solution. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D11CD55.1090808@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-22T10:05:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (22-12-2010 02:06):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have tried the optical illusion analogy. How can you weigh the\nevidence to decide if the correct interpretation of the picture is a\nyoung woman or an old crone?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He can weigh it to decide it's not a platypus or a vending machine.\n\nI think if you spent more time polishing your hypotheses instead of building \nstraw men, it would be more productive for everyone." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-22T12:13:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "<4D11CD55.1090808@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: He can weigh it to decide it's not a platypus or a vending machine.\nI think if you spent more time polishing your hypotheses instead of building \nstraw men, it would be more productive for everyone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSpeaking for everyone, would you please explain why any of my theories concerning the stories \nwritten by Gene Wolfe resemble unpolished straw men, platypuses and vending machines? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D11F080.2030205@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-22T12:35:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (22-12-2010 12:13):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: He can weigh it to decide it's not a platypus or a vending machine.\nI think if you spent more time polishing your hypotheses instead of building\nstraw men, it would be more productive for everyone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Speaking for everyone, would you please explain why any of my theories concerning the stories\nwritten by Gene Wolfe resemble unpolished straw men, platypuses and vending machines? \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good grief, Lee, who said your theories concerning the stories written by \nGene Wolfe were or resembled straw men?\nSpeaking for myself, will you react to what I say instead of what I don't?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-22T21:46:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus, the Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "<4D11F080.2030205@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\nThen there is the *clue* about the false assertion of the age of the necropolis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When Severian returns to the Citadel in UotNS, he is marched as a prisoner from the river, with steps much like where he swam, then up a wooded hill, then, to his surprise, to the Curtain Wall of the Citadel and the Sally Port later known as the Corpse Door. ?The Necropolis is not described at all, and if it was there, Severian would have recognized his location before the shock of the Wall, which he initially thinks is the Wall of Nessus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He goes through what appears to be a public garden. I would take this\nto be the necropolis, which he does not recognise as such because\nthere are not many graves yet. It may well have been started about the\ntime the Citadel was converted from a spaceport to a fortress, i.e.\nnot too long before Severian's visit. Given that the actual city has\nbeen around for chiliads at least, this won't make it the oldest in\nthe city, just pretty old.\n\nI agree it's odd Typhon has a family vault in the necropolis. Perhaps\nit's actually Echidna's family vault? Ot perhaps it's not a family\nthing at all - e.g. a Severian avatar might have given Cilinia shelter\nwhen her father threw her out. Hard to say." } ] } ] }