{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5785", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5785, "subject": "Shadow Children and Inhumi", "messages": 17, "voices": 7, "first": "2010-11-30T04:29:06+00:00", "last": "2010-12-01T16:59:35+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-30T04:29:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shadow Children and Inhumi", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn- I think that's quite a stretch - the text pretty much spells out what the \nShadow Children are." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this was discussed in the past year so I'll try to keep it brief. Yes, The Old Wise\none clearly tells Sandwalker that the Shadow Children are the remnants of human beings who\narrived on spaceships and have been stunted, deformed and indeterminate in number by their \nchewing of an addictive narcotic plant. I have no objection to those who find this answer \nsatifying and sufficient. But I find a few plausible reasons to doubt the story.\n \nThe first is that The Old Wise One names six possible names for their home nation on earth\nbut five of them are fictional or otherwise unbelievable names. Moreover, the Shadow Children \nare nasty little liars and deceivers. \n \nLater they are discussing names and the Old Wise One states that the Shadow Children \"had no \nnames before men came out of the sky. We were mostly long and lived in holes between the roots \nof trees\". The Old Wise One goes on to say he is confused and doesn't quite know which race is\nnative to St. Anne and which were the starcrossers. So perhaps he is just an old confused guy, \nhis first version is the correct one and his later revision means nothing. I tend to think\nthe revision is more likely correct. Names are important for Wolfe and I think these are really\nthe descendents of indistinct shadowy creatures imperfectly imitating humans.\n \nI find a possible parallel in the story of the Inhumi. We are given pretty explicit detail on \ntheir reptilian nature and their reproduction- how they play at human courtship, have sexual \nintercourse like humans but then go off in some water to externally fertilize their eggs like \nfrogs or salamanders. \n \nBut Inhumi, like Shadow Children, are big fat liars. Also like Shadow Children there is a good \nchance they have lost memories of their origins after long imitation of another species. Thus I \nthink the one small suggestion (I think in IGJ, James probably knows where it is) that Inhumi \nare orginally derived from the parasitic vines on trees on Green is the deepest truth.\nThey've been imitating humans for a while. But I suspect they have imitated the egg-laying\ncreatures for much longer. They pretend the reptile-stuff is their deepest secret. But I think\nthere is a deeper one. (that in essence, they are nothing, just instinctive imitators of other\nspecies, from whence comes all their attributes and abilities)\n \n \n \nJames wonders if there is any relationship of this secret vine origin to Dionysus, god of the vine.\nI wonder if there is any possible relationship of any of this to Master Ash's missing mate Vine? \nI dunno. But her name has to mean something, doesn't it? If there is a Dionysian deity popping up\nin various guises throughout Severian's story, Master Ash would likely be among them, perhaps. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-11-30T14:12:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shadow Children and Inhumi", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nGerry Quinn- I think that's quite a stretch - the text pretty much spells \nout what the\nShadow Children are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think this was discussed in the past year so I'll try to keep it brief. \nYes, The Old Wise\none clearly tells Sandwalker that the Shadow Children are the remnants of \nhuman beings who\narrived on spaceships and have been stunted, deformed and indeterminate in \nnumber by their\nchewing of an addictive narcotic plant. I have no objection to those who \nfind this answer\nsatifying and sufficient. But I find a few plausible reasons to doubt the \nstory.\n\nThe first is that The Old Wise One names six possible names for their home \nnation on earth\nbut five of them are fictional or otherwise unbelievable names. Moreover, \nthe Shadow Children\nare nasty little liars and deceivers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They may have purposely or otherwise forgotten the names of the human \nculture(s) from which they derived. They are nevertheless clear on where \nthey came from: \"when the Fighting Lizard is high in the summer sky and we \nsee our old home as a little yellow gem in his tail\".\n\nThey are tricksters and to some degree - though not entirely - \nself-deceivers. I do not think they are thereby less reliable than the \naverage Wolfian informant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Later they are discussing names and the Old Wise One states that the \nShadow Children \"had no\nnames before men came out of the sky. We were mostly long and lived in \nholes between the roots\nof trees\". The Old Wise One goes on to say he is confused and doesn't \nquite know which race is\nnative to St. Anne and which were the starcrossers. So perhaps he is just \nan old confused guy,\nhis first version is the correct one and his later revision means nothing. \nI tend to think\nthe revision is more likely correct. Names are important for Wolfe and I \nthink these are really\nthe descendents of indistinct shadowy creatures imperfectly imitating \nhumans." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This one is easy. Note that it occurs when there is only one Shadow Child \nleft alive in the group. The Old Wise One has grown taller because he is \nconstructed from Sandwalker as well as the last Shadow Child. \"Now I am \nhalf a man\", he says. Atr this point, yes, he does admit to being confused \nas to which species is which.\n\nElsewhere, though, he makes statements such as \"all the great political \nmovements of history were born in prisons\". The Shadow Children have \nmemories of Earth. They have knowledge of the starcrossers passing by. \nThey recite poetry about starcrossers. The Abos know nothing of all this.\n\nYour theory is that they are two independent types of the native species, \nand the humans (who must have landed at some point) are completely gone. \nThis seems a needless multiplication of entities. And where does the drug \nthey use fit in? We're to believe that type A of the native creatures copy \nhumans, humans die out, Type A discover a drug that makes them able to \ndetect human spacecraft, type B meanwhile copy humans or type A, but look \ndifferent and don't have the psychic powers... Where does it stop? Why not \ntype C, or D, or E? What happened to the original human explorers?\n\nWolfe's books may be capable of multiple interpretations, but they are not \nIMO a nebulous fog from which one can pick out random pieces based on a word \nor the colour of somebody's hair and construct a completely different story. \nMaybe no interpretation is perfectly consistent, but some are more \nconsistent than others. We shouldn't overturn consistent interpretations on \na word or two. (To be fair, your theory here, although I don't subscribe to \nit, is more credible to me than the ones where every monkey is really Fr. \nInire, etc.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find a possible parallel in the story of the Inhumi. We are given pretty \nexplicit detail on\ntheir reptilian nature and their reproduction- how they play at human \ncourtship, have sexual\nintercourse like humans but then go off in some water to externally \nfertilize their eggs like\nfrogs or salamanders.\n\nBut Inhumi, like Shadow Children, are big fat liars. Also like Shadow \nChildren there is a good\nchance they have lost memories of their origins after long imitation of \nanother species. Thus I\nthink the one small suggestion (I think in IGJ, James probably knows where \nit is) that Inhumi\nare orginally derived from the parasitic vines on trees on Green is the \ndeepest truth.\nThey've been imitating humans for a while. But I suspect they have \nimitated the egg-laying\ncreatures for much longer. They pretend the reptile-stuff is their deepest \nsecret. But I think\nthere is a deeper one. (that in essence, they are nothing, just \ninstinctive imitators of other\nspecies, from whence comes all their attributes and abilities)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That may be true of the inhumi. But is it true of the Abos or Shadow \nChildren? They do not seem to have any such secret. Incidentally I find a \nparallel also between the Shadow Children / Abo and human / inhumi \nrelationships, but this parallel depends on one of each being human and one \nalien! (In both cases, they gain psychic powers when cooperating.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James wonders if there is any relationship of this secret vine origin to \nDionysus, god of the vine.\nI wonder if there is any possible relationship of any of this to Master \nAsh's missing mate Vine?\nI dunno. But her name has to mean something, doesn't it? If there is a \nDionysian deity popping up\nin various guises throughout Severian's story, Master Ash would likely be \namong them, perhaps." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ash seems less Dionysiam than Silk, if that is possible! Maybe Vine came \nfrom Viron. Her name would imply that, right? But what to make of Ash - he \nfalls just a little outside the Vironese animal / vegetable / mineral \nclassification... a cyborg of some kind? A reconstructed entity? But he \ncould refer to the ashes of Urth, if a frozen snowball can be in some \nmetaphorical sense ashes.\n\nThen again Wolfe was at pains to point out that Ram was not from Viron. Is \nthere some mystery behind Ram - or might it be that sometimes a name does \nnot mean something, or at least it does not mean anything of global \nsignificance!\n\nThe name /association game can be played indefinitely but there must be some \npoint at which the remainder of the text becomes a more reliable reference \npoint.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF5130D.90709@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-30T15:06:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shadow Children and Inhumi", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/29/2010 10:29 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nGerry Quinn- I think that's quite a stretch -\nthe text pretty much spells out what the>Shadow Children are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think this was discussed in the past year so I'll try to keep it brief.\nYes, The Old Wiseone clearly tells Sandwalker that the Shadow Children are\nthe remnants of human beings who arrived on spaceships and have been stunted,\ndeformed and indeterminate in number by their chewing of an addictive narcotic plant.\nI have no objection to those who find this answer satifying and sufficient.\nBut I find a few plausible reasons to doubt the story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One should beware of what the text spells out in a Wolfe novel. In an \ninterview, Wolfe referred to Sandwalker as a Shadow Child, which is not \nsurprising considering their psychic connection. But if the Shadow \nChildren are human then Sandwalker is human too, and then surely all the \nabos are human and that is a step I cannot take.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF51355.9040408@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-30T15:08:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shadow Children and Inhumi", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/29/2010 10:29 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nGerry Quinn- I think that's quite a stretch -\nthe text pretty much spells out what the>Shadow Children are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think this was discussed in the past year so I'll try to keep it brief.\nYes, The Old Wiseone clearly tells Sandwalker that the Shadow Children are\nthe remnants of human beings who arrived on spaceships and have been stunted,\ndeformed and indeterminate in number by their chewing of an addictive narcotic plant.\nI have no objection to those who find this answer satifying and sufficient.\nBut I find a few plausible reasons to doubt the story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One should beware of what the text spells out in a Wolfe novel. In an \ninterview, Wolfe referred to Sandwalker as a Shadow Child, which is not \nsurprising considering" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-30T18:17:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shadow Children and Inhumi", "in_reply_to": "<4CF51355.9040408@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn- In an interview, Wolfe referred to Sandwalker as a Shadow Child, which is not \nsurprising considering their psychic connection. But if the Shadow Children are human then \nSandwalker is human too, and then surely all the abos are human and that is a step I cannot take." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYeah, on first reading of 5HoC I assumed Veil's hypothesis was a bit of silly sophistry. But then \nevidence of Dr Marsch's replacement by VRT forced me to reconsider- maybe Veil is correct and everyone \non the two planets is an abo. But what is the original form of the abos? I thought Shadow Children\nmade a good candidate but they (and Gerry Quinn) assert that they are human and thus not native.\nMaybe chewing on an herb can make human beings psychic and short and take away all tool-using ability.\nBut how could it make humans become indeterminate in shape and numbers? \n \nI don't negate the potential validity of Gerry's theory. A surprise ending that the the human beings are \nreally aliens and the weird looking creatures are really human is a recurring plot in SF-Horror stories.\nI can think of a few examples of it. But I just get the sense that Wolfe goes beyond that in 5HoC.\n \nIn my view, the original lifeforms on St. Croix are predatory, psychic shadowy things that call spaceships \ndown. Once humans arrive, a Lamarckian evolution takes place. The Shadow Creatures' first attempt to \nimitate humans are Shadow Children. They have sort of a human form but are still very psychic, can't use \ntools and blend into each other like shadows. The next attempt is abos. They are human in form, a little \npsychic, have some but not full use of tools and can still shapeshift a bit. Their best attempt is a full \nimitation of the civilized French immigrants who are not at all psychic, have much better (but perhaps not \nfull?) tool use and have lost all memory of their shape-shifting past and latent abilities. Thus Veil is \ncorrect. The only humans we see in the story are Dr.Marsch (at first) and maybe Number Five's family\n(have they escaped replacement via isolation, cloning and the vigilance of Mr. Million?).\n \n \n \nP.S. I may not have been clear about something in the last post about Inhumi. We are openly told a bunch of \ntimes that they are reptilian in nature, but in the finale of RttW they are revealed to have an amphibious\nreproductive system with external fertilization. Perhaps I am over-emphasizing a minor zoological error \nby Wolfe but I think it is purposeful by him. One of the defining features of reptiles is sexual \nintercourse and internal fertilization. I think this may serve to additionally illustrate the multiple levels \nof deception the Inhumi operate on.\n \nThe reason for this relentless deception is a recurring Wolfean theme, specifically outlined in UotNS- \nthe deepest instinct of an imitative species would be to avoid detection by another species. We see this \nillustrated when Zak runs from Severian after he recognizes that he is the previously animal creature. \nAlso when Number Five manages to drive off Dr. Marsch by insisting that he is really an abo. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF54575.6080005@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-30T18:41:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shadow Children and Inhumi", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman-\nYeah, on first reading of 5HoC I assumed Veil's hypothesis was a bit of silly sophistry.\nBut then evidence of Dr Marsch's replacement by VRT forced me to reconsider- maybe Veil is correct\nand everyone on the two planets is an abo." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For a while, I maintained a place-holding hypothesis that the only pure \nhumans left on Blue (besides very recent arrivals) were the Maitre and \nNumber Five. But VRT-as-Marsch has Sandwalker dream a dream that N5 \nshares. Which implies the clones and VRT are twins in some way. So, I \ndon't know.\n\nLike I said, nothing is clear about the Shadow Children's origins, even \nto them. The leader says \"We came either recently or a long, long time \nago. \" Obviously, it they were natives that replaced the colonists \n--precisely replaced them--both would be true." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But what is the original form of the abos?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IIRC the Shadow Child says their original form was \"long\". So, I believe \ntheir original form was those \"huge worms, luminous but of the livid \ncolor of a dead man's lips\". Presumably, the amazing imitative ability \nof the creatures was like the ability of the inhumi to be ensouled--an \ncoincidental feature.\n\nI think the little Shadow Children mimicked the colonists and replaced \nthem, forgot about it, and then through their chronic use of their \nspecial leaves began to change physically.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-30T19:30:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shadow Children and Inhumi", "in_reply_to": "<4CF54575.6080005@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nThis one is easy. ?Note that it occurs when there is only one Shadow Child\nleft alive in the group. ?The Old Wise One has grown taller because he is\nconstructed from Sandwalker as well as the last Shadow Child. ?\"Now I am\nhalf a man\", he says. ?Atr this point, yes, he does admit to being confused\nas to which species is which.\n\nElsewhere, though, he makes statements such as \"all the great political\nmovements of history were born in prisons\". ?The Shadow Children have\nmemories of Earth. ?They have knowledge of the starcrossers passing by.\nThey recite poetry about starcrossers. ?The Abos know nothing of all this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that other things being equal, what the Old Wise One says\nfirst - while he is still the collective consciousness of Shadow\nChildren - is more reliable than what he says later, when he is partly\nFree People and rather confused about his identity. Nevertheless, I\nthink there is a deliberate ambiguity here. Just to confuse the matter\nfurther, the whole story is written by 'John V. Marsch'. Now, 'John V.\nMarsch' is of course not really John V. Marsch, but V.R.T., who is\npresumably drawing on the traditions of his people, but still he has\nknowledge of humans and of Earth culture, so the words he puts in the\nmouth of the Shadow Children do not directly prove anything about\nthem.\n\nI do think, though, that the Shadow Children are certainly giving\nfalse names for the land they came from. Poictesme did not exist; and\nthough Gondwanaland may have done, its people certainly did not call\nit Gondwanaland. What I would read this as meaning is that they are\nquite recent arrivals from Earth, coming at a time when these names\nwhere known, just a hundred years or so before the better recorded\nFrench expedition. Two things that might support this are the\n'observatory', which if I remember rightly Marsch postulated was about\na hundred years old, and the names 'John' and 'Mary' used by the Free\nPeople, perhaps the names of the first humans they met. (Of course,\nthis is equally consistent with the Free People being the recent\narrivals, and they and the Shadow Children having changed places.)\n\nThe same question arises for the Annese as for the Inhumi, whether\nthey can breed with humans. It is perhaps more plausible that they can\nif they are of human descent. V.R.T. is alleged to be half-Abo. (Wolfe\nhas said that he is a Shadow Child, though some think this was a\nslip.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "markjmillman at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-30T20:38:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shadow Children and Inhumi", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear Mr. Berman and Mr. Quinn,\n\nOn Tuesday 30 November 2010 at 9:12 AM, Gerry Quinn replied to Lee Berman:\n\nLB> James wonders if there is any relationship\nLB> of this secret vine origin to Dionysus, god\nLB> of the vine. I wonder if there is any possible\nLB> relationship of any of this to Master Ash's\nLB> missing mate Vine? I dunno. But her name\nLB> has to mean something, doesn't it?\n\nMaybe, but it may not mean much. See below for my interpretation.\n\nLB> If there is a Dionysian deity popping up in\nLB> various guises throughout Severian's story,\n\nThat seems to be a big if, except in so far as Wolfe imitates\nclassical models. Remember, Nessus and the Commonwealth are Byzantium\nand its empire.\n\nLB> Master Ash would likely be among them,\nLB> perhaps." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "GQ> Ash seems less Dionysiam than Silk, if\nGQ> that is possible!\n\nIndeed; as a cloistered researcher, Apollonian is the way to go for\nhim--if one finds this a productive interpretive schema.\n\nGQ>?Maybe Vine came from Viron.\n\nI certainly hope not, considering the gap between the works.\n\nIn fact, I rather do hope that you're writing tongue in cheek for the\nnext couple of paragraphs.\n\nGQ>?Her name would imply that, right?\n\nAgain, I hope not. Wolfe may have developed the Vironese naming\nconvention with this in the back of his mind, but it strains credulity\nto suggest that Vine's name somehow looks ahead to _Long Sun_.\n\nGQ>?But what to make of Ash - he falls just a\nGQ> little outside the Vironese animal / vegeta-\nGQ> ble / mineral classification... a cyborg of\nGQ> some kind? “A reconstructed entity”\n\nVolcanic ash is mineral in nature, so he might, if Wolfe had been\nthinking of Vironese naming during the writing of BotNS, have been a\nchem. But Ash is also a tree, so if he's a cyborg his organic parts\nought to be female, like those of Marble's. But see below.\n\nGQ>?But he could refer to the ashes of Urth, if a\nGQ> frozen snowball can be in some metaphor-\nGQ> ical sense ashes.\nGQ>\nGQ> Then again Wolfe was at pains to point out\nGQ> that Ram was not from Viron. ?Is there\nGQ> some mystery behind Ram - or might it be\nGQ> that sometimes a name does not mean\nGQ> something, or at least it does not mean\nGQ> anything of global significance!\n\nFor those who haven't encountered, or don't remember, Norse mythology,\nAsk and Embla are the first man and woman, created from plants. \"Ask\"\nmeans \"ash tree\", although I certainly do think that Wolfe took\nadvantage of the pun that you suggest above. The meaning of \"Embla\"\nis disputed; I've seen suggestions that it means \"elm\", \"alder\", and\n\"vine\". Given Wolfe's expressed views on the proper relationship\nbetween men and women, I'd have suspected he'd incline to the last;\nbut in fact, in \"Onomastics, the Study of Names\" in _The Castle of the\nOtter_, he explicitly says that he understands \"Embla\" to mean \"vine\".\n In the essay's last paragraph, Wolfe writes:\n\n\"Thinking it a good omen to give the last man the name of the first, I\nhave called him Ash, translating the Teutonic _Ask_. Ask's wife was\nEmbla (Vine). Odin, Hoenir, and Lodur are said to have created this\ncouple from a dead tree and its equally dead parasite, so their very\nexistence indicates the hope of rebirth.\"\n\nNo doubt Wolfe also had in mind the fact that Norse mythology is one\nof the few that predicts the world's ultimate--i.e., not cyclical,\nwith its implication of rebirth--destruction by the forces of chaos,\ndarkness, ice, and fire.\n\nInterestingly, Meschia and Meschiane of Persian myth are also created\nfrom trees. There's a nice parallelism there.\n\nI will not, by the way, listen to theories about Neighbors and inhumi\nprompted by this information, particularly not if they attempt to\ninterpret Master Ash and Vine, and Meschia and Meschiane, as being in\nany way related to the creatures of Blue and Green, except as the\nmythological figures may have served as inspiration for the\n(potential) fictional idea.\n\nGQ> The name /association game can be played\nGQ> indefinitely but there must be some point at\nGQ> which the remainder of the text becomes a\nGQ> more reliable reference point.\n\nIndeed.\n\nPlease note that it -is- possible to over-interpret. Some of the\nrecent postings, in my opinion, have done so to a tremendous and\nbewildering extent.\n\nBest,\n\nMark Millman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF5663D.3020502@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-30T21:01:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shadow Children and Inhumi", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No doubt Wolfe also had in mind the fact that Norse mythology is one\nof the few that predicts the world's ultimate--i.e., not cyclical,\nwith its implication of rebirth--destruction by the forces of chaos,\ndarkness, ice, and fire." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a common misapprehension. Odin's sons Vidar and Vali (Vidar \nhaving slain Fenrir) survive Ragnarok (the floods and fires) and live in \nthe new fields where Asgard (now burned up and washed away) used to be. \nPersonally, I can't think of an single end-times myth right now that \ndoes not involve new worlds, lands, and/or people." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Please note that it -is- possible to over-interpret. Some of the\nrecent postings, in my opinion, have done so to a tremendous and\nbewildering extent." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I disagree about \"over-interpreting\", but \"mis-interpreting\", selecting \nthe wrong key is very easy.\nHowever, I find that it often happens that some will ho-hum \ninterpretations merely because they lack the necessary foundations to \nappreciate them. Often, what looks like a mere decorative doorway to the \nnaive is clearly a supporting structure to an engineer. Also, a lot of \nwhats involved in figuring out a Wolfe novel is randomly trying out \nkeys. So, I never mind when someone else is doing that.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "markjmillman at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-30T21:15:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shadow Children and Inhumi", "in_reply_to": "<4CF5663D.3020502@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear Mr. Wynn,\n\nOn Tuesday 30 November 2010, you replied:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No doubt Wolfe also had\nin mind the fact that Norse\nmythology is one of the\nfew that predicts the world's\nultimate--i.e., not cyclical,\nwith its implication of rebirth--\ndestruction by the forces of\nchaos, darkness, ice, and\nfire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is a common misapprehension. Odin's\nsons Vidar and Vali (Vidar having slain\nFenrir) survive Ragnarok (the floods and fires)\nand live in the new fields where Asgard (now\nburned up and washed away) used to be.\nPersonally, I can't think of an single end-times\nmyth right now that does not involve new\nworlds, lands, and/or people." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I subscribe to the idea that the world's refounding by Odin's sons is\na late addition to the mythology, influenced by Christianity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Please note that it -is- pos-\nsible to over-interpret. ?Some\nof the recent postings, in my\nopinion, have done so to a\ntremendous and bewildering\nextent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I disagree about \"over-interpreting\", but \"mis-\ninterpreting\", selecting the wrong key is very\neasy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For my part, I think that over-interpreting is mis-interpreting.\nHumans are pattern-making animals. Adept ones find difficult\npatterns; but the most adept know when a perceived pattern is only\napparent, and misleading." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, I find that it often happens that some\nwill ho-hum interpretations merely because\nthey lack the necessary foundations to appre-\nciate them. Often, what looks like a mere dec-\norative doorway to the naive is clearly a sup-\nporting structure to an engineer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's always a danger. See above on adeptness." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, a lot of whats involved in figuring out a\nWolfe novel is randomly trying out keys. So,\nI never mind when someone else is doing that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But some keys don't get discarded even after it's become clear that\nthey're false leads; and some interpreters are tone-deaf." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "u+16b9" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Best,\n\nMark Millman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF56F95.1080400@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-30T21:41:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shadow Children and Inhumi", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/30/2010 3:15 PM, Mark Millman wrote:\nThis is a common misapprehension. Odin's\n sons Vidar and Vali (Vidar having slain\n Fenrir) survive Ragnarok (the floods and fires)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " and live in the new fields where Asgard (now\n burned up and washed away) used to be.\n Personally, I can't think of an single end-times\n myth right now that does not involve new\n worlds, lands, and/or people." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I subscribe to the idea that the world's refounding by Odin's sons is\na late addition to the mythology, influenced by Christianity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay. But if Wolfe is riffing off of Ragnarok (and I think there is \nsufficient evidence that he is) then surely he ascribes to the \nPoetic/Prose Edda versions (assuming there _is_ another one). I say that \nbecause the destruction of Urth is not final. And, in fact, no ultimate \ncataclysms are final in tBotNS.\n\nAlso, I have to say that I see absolutely nothing Christian in the Vidar \nand Vali's survival of Ragnarok. The scene itself as well as Vidar in \nparticular are almost stereotypical of mythological forms -- from the \nrevenge of his father to the tip of his big thick shoe. I'm really not \nintending to debate or contend here, it's just that you are not the \nfirst person I've heard make the assertion that Odin's sons are a \nChristian addition, and I've never understood how that could be.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "markjmillman at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-30T22:01:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shadow Children and Inhumi", "in_reply_to": "<4CF56F95.1080400@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear Mr. Wynn," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Tuesday 30 November 2010, you wrote:\nI subscribe to the idea\nthat the world's refound-\ning by Odin's sons is\na late addition to the\nmythology, influenced\nby Christianity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay. But if Wolfe is riffing off of Ragnarok\n(and I think there is sufficient evidence that\nhe is)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "then surely he ascribes to the Poetic/Prose\nEdda versions (assuming there _is_ another\none)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not aware of others, but I'm not an expert in the field.\n\nI'd imagine that Wolfe--even if he, as I'd be inclined to believe,\npersonally prefers the extant version--is aware of the arguments and\nmight well use the postulated pre-Christian version for its literary\nvalue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I say that because the destruction of Urth\nis not final. And, in fact, no ultimate cata-\nclysms are final in tBotNS." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But the Ragnarok future in fact doesn't come to pass. The outcome is\nstrongly implied in BotNS and explicit in _Urth_. I'd argue that it's\nsafe for Wolfe to use Ragnarok as a contrasting potential future of\npermanent destruction precisely because Master Ash disappears.\nAnd--who knows?--maybe he wants on a still subtler level to imply that\neven if the worst possible result should transpire, hope even then\nremains (assuming, that is, that he means to reference the extant\nRagnarok material rather than the theoretical version)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, I have to say that I see absolutely no-\nthing Christian in the Vidar and Vali's surviv-\nal of Ragnarok. The scene itself as well as\nVidar in particular are almost stereotypical\nof mythological forms -- from the revenge of\nhis father to the tip of his big thick shoe. I'm\nreally not intending to debate or contend\nhere, it's just that you are not the first per-\nson I've heard make the assertion that\nOdin's sons are a Christian addition, and\nI've never understood how that could be." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think the idea is that Vidar and Vali are a Christian\naddition; I think that their survival and revivification of the world\nis the Christian-influenced part (I tend to think that, like Thor,\nthey originally didn't survive their climactic fights despite killing\ntheir adversaries). Snorri Sturluson, who compiled the Eddic\nmaterials, shows in _Heimskringla_ that he's inclined to euhemerize,\nand I don't think it's unlikely that he might have adjusted things to\nsuit in _Edda_. He certainly had the knowledge and literary skill to\ndo so.\n\nBut you're right; this really is rather an irrelevant tangent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "u+16b9" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Best,\n\nMark Millman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF576B3.3040606@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-30T22:12:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shadow Children and Inhumi", "in_reply_to": "<4CF54575.6080005@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/30/2010 12:41 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nI wrote:\nFor a while, I maintained a place-holding hypothesis that the only \npure humans left on Blue (besides very recent arrivals) were the \nMaitre and Number Five. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This was a typo influenced no doubt by the Green-Blue pairing of St Anne \n& St Croix. I don't believe St. Croix is Horn's planet.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF5A3A8.2070707@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-12-01T01:23:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ash (was: Re: Shadow Children and Inhumi)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 30/11/10 04:29, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nJames wonders if there is any relationship of this secret vine origin to Dionysus, god of the vine.\nI wonder if there is any possible relationship of any of this to Master Ash's missing mate Vine?\nI dunno. But her name has to mean something, doesn't it? If there is a Dionysian deity popping up\nin various guises throughout Severian's story, Master Ash would likely be among them, perhaps. \t\t \t \t\t\n_________\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry I appear to have missed the original reference (I get overwhelmed \nwith internet stuff quite often, blame my age) but regarding Ash and \nVine, I have always assumed that these are cognates / references to Ask \nand Embla (Ash and Vine, in translation) the first human couple of \npost-Fimbulwinter, post-Ragnarok Midgard in Norse tradition.\n\nIn a different timeline, which doesn't exist in Briah's multiple \niterations as often as Severian's (but still has some local substance, \nhence the presence of Master Ash and his time machine in visible form \nupon Urth), Ash is not only the last holdout on post-Ragnarok Urth, but \nin those timeline possibilities, its Meschia equivalent. On the \noccasions when this timeline does exist, Vine, whom according to \nSeverian's account he still hopes to see again, is his Meschiane.\n\njd" } ] }, { "message_id": "<406189.12436.qm@web114707.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-01T05:44:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shadow Children and Inhumi", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Lee Berman \nJames Wynn- In an interview, Wolfe referred to Sandwalker as a Shadow Child, \nwhich is not " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "surprising considering their psychic connection. But if the Shadow Children \nare human then " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sandwalker is human too, and then surely all the abos are human and that is a \nstep I cannot take." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nI must say I was very disappointed by that interview. I think I'd decided that \nall the abos were human, and I liked that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "P.S. I may not have been clear about something in the last post about Inhumi. \nWe are openly told a bunch of \n\ntimes that they are reptilian in nature, but in the finale of RttW they are \nrevealed to have an amphibious\nreproductive system with external fertilization." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(If we trust Juganu. Just kidding.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps I am over-emphasizing a minor zoological error \nby Wolfe but I think it is purposeful by him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I certainly hope so. I think having the inhumi be reptiles in all respects \nwould have been almost a zoological error. They're aliens, not Earth life; \nthey're reptilian but not reptiles; and their external fertilization reminds us \nof that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One of the defining features of reptiles is sexual \nintercourse and internal fertilization. I think this may serve to additionally \nillustrate the multiple levels \n\nof deception the Inhumi operate on.\n\nThe reason for this relentless deception is a recurring Wolfean theme, \nspecifically outlined in UotNS- \n\nthe deepest instinct of an imitative species would be to avoid detection by \nanother species." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that would be important to it once it was intelligent enough to know when \nit was detected, but that wouldn't be its deepest instinct. Lots of flies \nimitate bees and wasps, and they have instincts (to eat, mate, etc.), but they \ndon't appear to avoid me any more after I notice that they're really flies. \n(Inept insect photography is a hobby of mine.)\n\nIn general I imagine you're right--Wolfe's imitative creatures try hard to avoid \nbeing recognized. However, I don't think hiding their methods of reproduction \nis such a case. The inhumi aren't trying to convince anyone that they're \nbiologically the same as Earth reptiles." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We see this \nillustrated when Zak runs from Severian after he recognizes that he is the \npreviously animal creature. \n\nAlso when Number Five manages to drive off Dr. Marsch by insisting that he is \nreally an abo. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An interesting parallel.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-01T16:26:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shadow Children and Inhumi", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message ----- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Andrew Mason\" \nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Elsewhere, though, he makes statements such as \"all the great political\nmovements of history were born in prisons\". The Shadow Children have\nmemories of Earth. They have knowledge of the starcrossers passing by.\nThey recite poetry about starcrossers. The Abos know nothing of all \nthis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree that other things being equal, what the Old Wise One says\nfirst - while he is still the collective consciousness of Shadow\nChildren - is more reliable than what he says later, when he is partly\nFree People and rather confused about his identity. Nevertheless, I\nthink there is a deliberate ambiguity here. Just to confuse the matter\nfurther, the whole story is written by 'John V. Marsch'. Now, 'John V.\nMarsch' is of course not really John V. Marsch, but V.R.T., who is\npresumably drawing on the traditions of his people, but still he has\nknowledge of humans and of Earth culture, so the words he puts in the\nmouth of the Shadow Children do not directly prove anything about\nthem." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another point in favour of ambiguity is that Wolfe never tells us the colour \nof the Shadow Childrens' eyes. This does almost suggest that Wolfe himself \nwished to leave matters ambiguous.\n\nOne thing the eye colour thing does tell us is that we can discount the \nstrong version of Veil's Hypothesis, i.e. that the colonists were replaced \nen masse by shape-changing aliens. Clearly green eyes are unusual among the \ncolonists. They have been infiltrated by aliens passing for human (the weak \nversion of Veil's, which is true), but not replaced. Marsch may well have \ndied of natural causes, or been accidentally killed in a fight with VRT. \nThe Annese do not normally sneak up on humans, kill them and take their \nplace - that is the province of inhumi or alzabo. If Marsch was killed for \nthat reason., he is an exceptional case. If it happened often, the \ncolonists would know of it and fear the abos." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do think, though, that the Shadow Children are certainly giving\nfalse names for the land they came from. Poictesme did not exist; and\nthough Gondwanaland may have done, its people certainly did not call\nit Gondwanaland. What I would read this as meaning is that they are\nquite recent arrivals from Earth, coming at a time when these names\nwhere known, just a hundred years or so before the better recorded\nFrench expedition." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Two things that might support this are the\nobservatory', which if I remember rightly Marsch postulated was about\na hundred years old, and the names 'John' and 'Mary' used by the Free\nPeople, perhaps the names of the first humans they met. (Of course,\nthis is equally consistent with the Free People being the recent\narrivals, and they and the Shadow Children having changed places.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed, the observatory is a good clue. And a century or so seems generally \nreasonable on many grounds - the story gives the impression of being set not \nin a distant future like Urth's, but at some time in the Third Millenium (of \nwhich we represent the dawn men)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The same question arises for the Annese as for the Inhumi, whether\nthey can breed with humans. It is perhaps more plausible that they can\nif they are of human descent. V.R.T. is alleged to be half-Abo. (Wolfe\nhas said that he is a Shadow Child, though some think this was a\nslip.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Breeding is not terribly plausible for either race from a hard SF \nperspective, but of course Wolfe is not really interested in hard SF. \nBesides, if we are going that route the native plants and animals should not \nbe edible! Breeding with aliens, so long as they are humanoid, is almost a \ndefault in SF, like FTL. (Both the possibility of breeding and FTL also \nsupport more Earthly metaphors, which are of course very much to the \nforefront in 5HoC.) I do not think it at all likely that the inhumi can \ninterbreed with humans (although I wouldn't put it past them, or humans, to \nhave sex of some kind, especially on cold dark nights).\n\nI am one of those who think calling VRT a Shadow Child is a slip. One point \nis eye colour - although the eye colour of the Shadow Children is not \nstated, neither is it drawn attention to. Also, if the Shadow Children \nactually look like humans, then the other Annese - who greatly outnumber the \nShadow Children - should be taller and stronger than humans, and nowhere do \nwe hear of any such race. Whatever the origin of the Shadow Children (I \npersonally am pretty certain they were human) they fade from the story after \nthe French landings.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<569912.84373.qm@web114718.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-01T16:59:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shadow Children and Inhumi", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Mark Millman markjmillman at gmail.com\n...\n\nLB> If there is a Dionysian deity popping up in\nLB> various guises throughout Severian's story," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That seems to be a big if, except in so far as Wolfe imitates\nclassical models. Remember, Nessus and the Commonwealth are Byzantium\nand its empire." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip interesting comments, including useful reminder of origin of Master Ash's \nname]\n\nI think it's going too far to say that the Commonwealth /is/ Byzantium. It's \nmodeled on Byzantium, but there are many obvious differences. However, I'd be \ninterested if people who know more history would mention any similarities in \ndetail. Did members of the upper classes challenge people to duels by giving \nthem stones? Did commoners praise the emperor every time they mentioned him? \nWere parts of Byzantium abandoned to omophagists?\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] } ] }