{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5790", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5790, "subject": "Orchid", "messages": 11, "voices": 4, "first": "2010-11-30T20:20:38+00:00", "last": "2010-12-21T15:47:26+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-30T20:20:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Orchid", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "More from my reading of BOTLS.\n\nFirst just a titbit, showing how nicely Wolfe interweaves things;\nwhile Silk is at Blood's house, he hears a band playing 'Brave Guards\nof the Third Brigade'. Much later, we discover that Oosik. commanding\nofficer of the Third Brigade, was at that party; the piece was\npresumably being played in in his honour.\n\nBut my actual question is this. Kypris tells Orchid that now the\nperson she loved (Orpine) is dead, she must find someone else to love.\nDoes anything ever come of this? I can't recall it doing so, but it\nsounds as if it's meant to prefigure something." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-12T17:59:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Orchid", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But my actual question is this. Kypris tells Orchid that now the\nperson she loved (Orpine) is dead, she must find someone else to love.\nDoes anything ever come of this? I can't recall it doing so, but it\nsounds as if it's meant to prefigure something." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No takers on this one? Actually, I misstated it slightly; Kypris\ndoesn't 'someone', she says 'something', which may make a difference.\nI'll look out for any possible payoff as I go through the series.\n\nMeanwhile, though, another Orchid-related question. Silk says 'All the\ngods know that I pitied her [at Orpine's funeral]' and Kypris/Chenille\nreplies 'All the gods don't know. One does. Two.' The one is clearly\nKypris herself, but who is the other?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<224973D9F63E4728AC6160FA4946AFA3@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-12T18:03:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Orchid", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Andrew Mason\" \n\nBut my actual question is this. Kypris tells Orchid that now the\nperson she loved (Orpine) is dead, she must find someone else to love.\nDoes anything ever come of this? I can't recall it doing so, but it\nsounds as if it's meant to prefigure something." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No takers on this one? Actually, I misstated it slightly; Kypris\ndoesn't 'someone', she says 'something', which may make a difference.\nI'll look out for any possible payoff as I go through the series." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nothing springs to mind." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Meanwhile, though, another Orchid-related question. Silk says 'All the\ngods know that I pitied her [at Orpine's funeral]' and Kypris/Chenille\nreplies 'All the gods don't know. One does. Two.' The one is clearly\nKypris herself, but who is the other?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought she meant the Outsider.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-12T21:24:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Orchid", "in_reply_to": "<224973D9F63E4728AC6160FA4946AFA3@jill>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason: Kypris tells Orchid that now the person she loved (Orpine) is dead, \nshe must find someone[something] else to love. Does anything ever come of this? I can't recall \nit doing so, but it sounds as if it's meant to prefigure something." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Meanwhile, though, another Orchid-related question. Silk says 'All the gods know that I pitied \nher [at Orpine's funeral]' and Kypris/Chenille replies 'All the gods don't know. One does. Two.' \nThe one is clearly Kypris herself, but who is the other?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am not nearly as familiar with Long Sun as BotNS but I'll give it a shot. In my opinion, Kypris'\nadvice to Orchid is actually advice to herself. Her beloved Pas has been deleted from Mainframe\nand now she must find another object to love.\n \nAs Kypris has become a part of Hyacynth, I believe she is refering to a character who has a part\nof Pas within him, namely, Silk. It is the Silk-Hyacinth love story she is prefiguring.\n \n\"Something\" implying an object is a funny reference. Kypris, from our perspective is not a person, \nshe is a thing, a computer program. How do computer programs view flesh and blood people? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-13T00:21:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Orchid", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quin wrote:\n\nI thought she meant the Outsider." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course! Why didn't I see that? I guess because people in Viron\nneglect the Outsider, it didn't occur to me Kypris would be thinking\nof him. but of course he was worshipped on Urth - and interacting with\nSilk would have reminded her of him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n\nI am not nearly as familiar with Long Sun as BotNS but I'll give it a shot. In my opinion, Kypris'\nadvice to Orchid is actually advice to herself. ?Her beloved Pas has been deleted from Mainframe\nand now she must find another object to love." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could be. I take it she really is trying to help Orchid, but she may\nwell be letting her own case guide her thoughts. (Though what you say\nbrings in questions about the meaning of the series as a whole, which\nI carefully haven't raised yet.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Something\" implying an object is a funny reference." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don 't think 'something' is too odd; it just implies that the object\nof her love needn't be a person. For Mint, for instance, it seems,\ncentrally, to have been the city." } ] }, { "message_id": "<45B95B0A22AD4FCBA7CEDB6383D5DBAD@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-13T00:50:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Orchid", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \n\"Something\" implying an object is a funny reference. Kypris, from our \nperspective is not a person,\nshe is a thing, a computer program. How do computer programs view flesh \nand blood people?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As things, not people. At least, Scylla does. But Scylla, despite being a \ngoddess, is immature.\n\nIt seems clear however that other gods do not, and wise persons be they \nhuman or chem or something else view each other as persons. I think that is \ngenerally the case in Wolfe's works.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-13T01:41:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Orchid", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message ----- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Andrew Mason\" \nLee Berman wrote:\n\nI am not nearly as familiar with Long Sun as BotNS but I'll give it a \nshot. In my opinion, Kypris'\nadvice to Orchid is actually advice to herself. Her beloved Pas has been \ndeleted from Mainframe\nand now she must find another object to love." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could be. I take it she really is trying to help Orchid, but she may\nwell be letting her own case guide her thoughts. (Though what you say\nbrings in questions about the meaning of the series as a whole, which\nI carefully haven't raised yet.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Something\" implying an object is a funny reference." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don 't think 'something' is too odd; it just implies that the object\nof her love needn't be a person. For Mint, for instance, it seems,\ncentrally, to have been the city.\n\nMint gave up 'five very great things' to become a sibyl. As a general, she \nlost more; in RttW she is confined to a wheelchair. It is still not \nentirely clear what the object of her love was; what seems intensely clear \nis that she was no less born to serve than was Marble.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-13T01:59:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Orchid", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message ----- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Andrew Mason\" \nGerry Quin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I thought she meant the Outsider." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course! Why didn't I see that? I guess because people in Viron\nneglect the Outsider, it didn't occur to me Kypris would be thinking\nof him. but of course he was worshipped on Urth - and interacting with\nSilk would have reminded her of him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And being hunted, perhaps.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-13T04:10:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Orchid", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn- Mint gave up 'five very great things' to become a sibyl. As a general, she \nlost more; in RttW she is confined to a wheelchair. It is still not entirely clear what \nthe object of her love was; what seems intensely clear is that she was no less born to serve \nthan was Marble." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For me, the Long Sun character of Mint seems loosely patterned on Joan of Arc. If the \nmain text is weak or unclear on her motivations, perhaps a study of the Maid of Orleans could\nhelp fill in gaps. (obviously they had different futures). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-20T01:43:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Orchid", "in_reply_to": "<224973D9F63E4728AC6160FA4946AFA3@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12 December 2010 18:03, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nFrom: \"Andrew Mason\" \nMeanwhile, though, another Orchid-related question. Silk says 'All the\ngods know that I pitied her [at Orpine's funeral]' and Kypris/Chenille\nreplies 'All the gods don't know. One does. Two.' The one is clearly\nKypris herself, but who is the other?\n\nI thought she meant the Outsider." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do the 'fake' gods ever mention the Outsider?\nOtoh it certainly looks like she's saying something - but what does it\nadvance the story if she's, f.i., refering to Pas?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-21T15:47:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Orchid", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Ant?nio Marques\" \nOn 12 December 2010 18:03, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Andrew Mason\" \nMeanwhile, though, another Orchid-related question. Silk says 'All the\ngods know that I pitied her [at Orpine's funeral]' and Kypris/Chenille\nreplies 'All the gods don't know. One does. Two.' The one is clearly\nKypris herself, but who is the other?\n\nI thought she meant the Outsider." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do the 'fake' gods ever mention the Outsider?\nOtoh it certainly looks like she's saying something - but what does it\nadvance the story if she's, f.i., refering to Pas?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He seems to be in the Chrasmological Writings, but I haven't heard of any \nincidences of them mentioning him apart from this. But we don't get all \nthat much face time with them anyway, or reasons why the Outsider might be \ndiscussed.\n\nAs I noted in another post, Kypris is being hunted by Echidna and the gang. \nIt may be that the Outsider's association with the broken and the disparaged \nresonates with her at this time.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] } ] }