# Orchid *The Urth list — 11 messages, 4 voices, 30 Nov 2010* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Andrew Mason *30 Nov 2010, 20:20* More from my reading of BOTLS. First just a titbit, showing how nicely Wolfe interweaves things; while Silk is at Blood's house, he hears a band playing 'Brave Guards of the Third Brigade'. Much later, we discover that Oosik. commanding officer of the Third Brigade, was at that party; the piece was presumably being played in in his honour. But my actual question is this. Kypris tells Orchid that now the person she loved (Orpine) is dead, she must find someone else to love. Does anything ever come of this? I can't recall it doing so, but it sounds as if it's meant to prefigure something. --- ### Andrew Mason *12 Dec 2010, 17:59 · follows Andrew Mason* > But my actual question is this. Kypris tells Orchid that now the > person she loved (Orpine) is dead, she must find someone else to love. > Does anything ever come of this? I can't recall it doing so, but it > sounds as if it's meant to prefigure something. No takers on this one? Actually, I misstated it slightly; Kypris doesn't 'someone', she says 'something', which may make a difference. I'll look out for any possible payoff as I go through the series. Meanwhile, though, another Orchid-related question. Silk says 'All the gods know that I pitied her [at Orpine's funeral]' and Kypris/Chenille replies 'All the gods don't know. One does. Two.' The one is clearly Kypris herself, but who is the other? --- ### Gerry Quinn *12 Dec 2010, 18:03 · in reply to Andrew Mason* >> From: "Andrew Mason" >> >> But my actual question is this. Kypris tells Orchid that now the >> person she loved (Orpine) is dead, she must find someone else to love. >> Does anything ever come of this? I can't recall it doing so, but it >> sounds as if it's meant to prefigure something. > No takers on this one? Actually, I misstated it slightly; Kypris > doesn't 'someone', she says 'something', which may make a difference. > I'll look out for any possible payoff as I go through the series. Nothing springs to mind. > Meanwhile, though, another Orchid-related question. Silk says 'All the > gods know that I pitied her [at Orpine's funeral]' and Kypris/Chenille > replies 'All the gods don't know. One does. Two.' The one is clearly > Kypris herself, but who is the other? I thought she meant the Outsider. - Gerry Quinn --- ### Lee Berman *12 Dec 2010, 21:24 · follows Gerry Quinn* > Andrew Mason: Kypris tells Orchid that now the person she loved (Orpine) is dead, > she must find someone[something] else to love. Does anything ever come of this? I can't recall > it doing so, but it sounds as if it's meant to prefigure something. > Meanwhile, though, another Orchid-related question. Silk says 'All the gods know that I pitied > her [at Orpine's funeral]' and Kypris/Chenille replies 'All the gods don't know. One does. Two.' > The one is clearly Kypris herself, but who is the other? I am not nearly as familiar with Long Sun as BotNS but I'll give it a shot. In my opinion, Kypris' advice to Orchid is actually advice to herself. Her beloved Pas has been deleted from Mainframe and now she must find another object to love. As Kypris has become a part of Hyacynth, I believe she is refering to a character who has a part of Pas within him, namely, Silk. It is the Silk-Hyacinth love story she is prefiguring. "Something" implying an object is a funny reference. Kypris, from our perspective is not a person, she is a thing, a computer program. How do computer programs view flesh and blood people? --- ### Andrew Mason *13 Dec 2010, 00:21 · follows Lee Berman* > Gerry Quin wrote: > > I thought she meant the Outsider. Of course! Why didn't I see that? I guess because people in Viron neglect the Outsider, it didn't occur to me Kypris would be thinking of him. but of course he was worshipped on Urth - and interacting with Silk would have reminded her of him. > Lee Berman wrote: > > I am not nearly as familiar with Long Sun as BotNS but I'll give it a shot. In my opinion, Kypris' > advice to Orchid is actually advice to herself. ?Her beloved Pas has been deleted from Mainframe > and now she must find another object to love. Could be. I take it she really is trying to help Orchid, but she may well be letting her own case guide her thoughts. (Though what you say brings in questions about the meaning of the series as a whole, which I carefully haven't raised yet.) > "Something" implying an object is a funny reference. I don 't think 'something' is too odd; it just implies that the object of her love needn't be a person. For Mint, for instance, it seems, centrally, to have been the city. --- ### Gerry Quinn *13 Dec 2010, 00:50 · in reply to Lee Berman* > From: "Lee Berman" > "Something" implying an object is a funny reference. Kypris, from our > perspective is not a person, > she is a thing, a computer program. How do computer programs view flesh > and blood people? As things, not people. At least, Scylla does. But Scylla, despite being a goddess, is immature. It seems clear however that other gods do not, and wise persons be they human or chem or something else view each other as persons. I think that is generally the case in Wolfe's works. - Gerry Quinn --- ### Gerry Quinn *13 Dec 2010, 01:41 · in reply to Andrew Mason* ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andrew Mason" > Lee Berman wrote: > > I am not nearly as familiar with Long Sun as BotNS but I'll give it a > shot. In my opinion, Kypris' > advice to Orchid is actually advice to herself. Her beloved Pas has been > deleted from Mainframe > and now she must find another object to love. Could be. I take it she really is trying to help Orchid, but she may well be letting her own case guide her thoughts. (Though what you say brings in questions about the meaning of the series as a whole, which I carefully haven't raised yet.) > "Something" implying an object is a funny reference. I don 't think 'something' is too odd; it just implies that the object of her love needn't be a person. For Mint, for instance, it seems, centrally, to have been the city. Mint gave up 'five very great things' to become a sibyl. As a general, she lost more; in RttW she is confined to a wheelchair. It is still not entirely clear what the object of her love was; what seems intensely clear is that she was no less born to serve than was Marble. - Gerry Quinn --- ### Gerry Quinn *13 Dec 2010, 01:59 · in reply to Andrew Mason* ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andrew Mason" > Gerry Quin wrote: >> I thought she meant the Outsider. > Of course! Why didn't I see that? I guess because people in Viron > neglect the Outsider, it didn't occur to me Kypris would be thinking > of him. but of course he was worshipped on Urth - and interacting with > Silk would have reminded her of him. And being hunted, perhaps. - Gerry Quinn --- ### Lee Berman *13 Dec 2010, 04:10 · follows Gerry Quinn* > Gerry Quinn- Mint gave up 'five very great things' to become a sibyl. As a general, she > lost more; in RttW she is confined to a wheelchair. It is still not entirely clear what > the object of her love was; what seems intensely clear is that she was no less born to serve > than was Marble. For me, the Long Sun character of Mint seems loosely patterned on Joan of Arc. If the main text is weak or unclear on her motivations, perhaps a study of the Maid of Orleans could help fill in gaps. (obviously they had different futures). --- ### António Marques *20 Dec 2010, 01:43 · in reply to Gerry Quinn* > On 12 December 2010 18:03, Gerry Quinn wrote: > From: "Andrew Mason" > Meanwhile, though, another Orchid-related question. Silk says 'All the > gods know that I pitied her [at Orpine's funeral]' and Kypris/Chenille > replies 'All the gods don't know. One does. Two.' The one is clearly > Kypris herself, but who is the other? > > I thought she meant the Outsider. Do the 'fake' gods ever mention the Outsider? Otoh it certainly looks like she's saying something - but what does it advance the story if she's, f.i., refering to Pas? --- ### Gerry Quinn *21 Dec 2010, 15:47 · in reply to António Marques* > From: "Ant?nio Marques" > On 12 December 2010 18:03, Gerry Quinn wrote: >> From: "Andrew Mason" >> Meanwhile, though, another Orchid-related question. Silk says 'All the >> gods know that I pitied her [at Orpine's funeral]' and Kypris/Chenille >> replies 'All the gods don't know. One does. Two.' The one is clearly >> Kypris herself, but who is the other? >> >> I thought she meant the Outsider. > Do the 'fake' gods ever mention the Outsider? > Otoh it certainly looks like she's saying something - but what does it > advance the story if she's, f.i., refering to Pas? He seems to be in the Chrasmological Writings, but I haven't heard of any incidences of them mentioning him apart from this. But we don't get all that much face time with them anyway, or reasons why the Outsider might be discussed. As I noted in another post, Kypris is being hunted by Echidna and the gang. It may be that the Outsider's association with the broken and the disparaged resonates with her at this time. - Gerry Quinn ---