{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5791", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5791, "subject": "Who's Right?", "messages": 88, "voices": 16, "first": "2010-12-01T04:58:34+00:00", "last": "2010-12-10T17:39:53+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-01T04:58:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In recent posts as diverse as Gerry Quinn's, Mark Millman's and Thomas Bitterman's, as well as\nmany times in the past, I've noticed the implication that this message board might not serve simply \nas a place for sharing ideas. \n \nI am wondering how many here at least partially consider their role here to be serving as a jury member,\nwith a duty to render judgement or cast a vote on whether a presented idea is too outlandish or \nover-interpreted or perhaps actually worthy of entry in the Accepted Lupine Gospel (or whatever it was \nthat Roy C. Lackey called it).\n \nExcept for a few slips in certain interviews, we know Gene Wolfe ain't talking. So is it a legitimate\nfunction of this board to serve as a review panel? Perhaps even with some measure of authority? Just \ncurious what people think about this. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<5ABBFB74DDEA414DA7FD0A206D405F3B@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-01T15:43:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-From: \"Lee Berman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In recent posts as diverse as Gerry Quinn's, Mark Millman's and Thomas \nBitterman's, as well as\nmany times in the past, I've noticed the implication that this message \nboard might not serve simply\nas a place for sharing ideas.\n\nI am wondering how many here at least partially consider their role here \nto be serving as a jury member,\nwith a duty to render judgement or cast a vote on whether a presented idea \nis too outlandish or\nover-interpreted or perhaps actually worthy of entry in the Accepted \nLupine Gospel (or whatever it was\nthat Roy C. Lackey called it)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wasn't implying anything of that kind. I *do* think that criticising \nideas is as important as sharing them. Ideas per se are almost worthless; \nanybody can come up with a million of them. We need ideas that have \nexplanatory power, and some degree of consistency with the text as a whole. \n(This was what I was hinting at when I suggested Vine might come from \nViron - that's a deliberate example of a *bad* idea, and if I had gone on to \ntalk about how it could have been arranged by time travelling hierodules for \nsome obscure purpose, it would just have made it worse.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Except for a few slips in certain interviews, we know Gene Wolfe ain't \ntalking. So is it a legitimate\nfunction of this board to serve as a review panel? Perhaps even with some \nmeasure of authority? Just\ncurious what people think about this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I certainly am not angling for any such idea. Certainly a formal voting \nprocedure would not only be divisive but would lead to problems of sock \npuppetry or worse. I don't even believe in the concept of a definitive \nLupine Gospel - there are lots of things on which there is plenty of room to \ndisagree.\n\nBut I certainly don't believe in giving ideas I consider excessively \nfanciful a free pass. Ideas need quality control! I am probably one of the \nmore conservative posters here in terms of evaluating new ideas, and no \ndoubt those who are more inclined to 'let a thousand flowers bloom' \nsometimes find my objections irritating. All I can suggest is that they \ntake them in the spirit of Nietzche's maxim: \"What does not kill me makes me \nstronger\". Ideas that can stand up to objections are the sort of ideas that \ncan progress rather than derail understanding.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF67465.2000009@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-01T16:14:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "<5ABBFB74DDEA414DA7FD0A206D405F3B@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/1/2010 9:43 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n-From: \"Lee Berman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In recent posts as diverse as Gerry Quinn's, Mark Millman's and \nThomas Bitterman's, as well as\nmany times in the past, I've noticed the implication that this \nmessage board might not serve simply\nas a place for sharing ideas.\n\nI am wondering how many here at least partially consider their role \nhere to be serving as a jury member,\nwith a duty to render judgement or cast a vote on whether a presented \nidea is too outlandish or\nover-interpreted or perhaps actually worthy of entry in the Accepted \nLupine Gospel (or whatever it was\nthat Roy C. Lackey called it)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn-\nI wasn't implying anything of that kind. I *do* think that \ncriticising ideas is as important as sharing them. Ideas per se are \nalmost worthless; anybody can come up with a million of them. We need \nideas that have explanatory power, and some degree of consistency with \nthe text as a whole. (This was what I was hinting at when I suggested \nVine might come from Viron - that's a deliberate example of a *bad* \nidea, and if I had gone on to talk about how it could have been \narranged by time travelling hierodules for some obscure purpose, it \nwould just have made it worse.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As someone who has a long list of explanations that are not shared by a \nlarge constituency, I must say that in my experience they are almost \nalways engaged directly or not at all. However, it does at times occur \n(extremely rarely in my case and not recently) that someone will merely \nwave their hands and attack, ad hominem, some theory as \"as step too \nfar\" without addressing the details of it. Whenever I see that, I am \noffended for the other person's sake, because 1) it can be difficult \ncoming up with a broad theory in even a Wolfe short story (see Dave \nTallman's explanation of 7ANs), much more so in his novels, and it feels \nrisky to offer them 2) its unlikely that even a correct theory will be \n_entirely_ correct on the first pass, and 3) it is so EASY for someone \nto sit on his behind and drawl \"I don't see it\". Personally, it offends \nmy sense of fair play.\n\nI don't mind (much) if someone takes on an explanation of mine with even \nstrong sarcasm as long has he or she is engaging specifically with what \nI said. I mean, if an idea sounds ludicrous to me, I suppose it would be \ndifficult to _not_ have a sarcastic tone when discussing it.\n\nI should also say, Gerry, that I don't follow every thread really \nclosely so I'm not exactly clear what you said to which Lee took \noffense--so I don't know if it is fair to categorize you with this post \nof mine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I certainly don't believe in giving ideas I consider excessively \nfanciful a free pass. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I _think_ I have a sense of what Lee was talking about and I don't think \nthis was it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[snip] All I can suggest is that they take them in the spirit of \nNietzche's maxim: \"What does not kill me makes me stronger\". Ideas \nthat can stand up to objections are the sort of ideas that can \nprogress rather than derail understanding." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's the whole point of offering ideas, right? But IMO ideas should be \nengaged directly or not at all (not that anyone should police ad hominem \nattacks).\n\nu+169b" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-01T18:51:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "<4CF67465.2000009@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: I should also say, Gerry, that I don't follow every thread really \nclosely so I'm not exactly clear what you said to which Lee took offense.." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nOh, I am not offended by criticism or conservative gatekeepers, though I can see \nhow that conclusion could be reached from my OP. Actually, that would be very \nhypocritical of me since, in my participation on another board devoted to a rather\ncryptic and mysterious artist (David Lynch), I myself tend to function as such a\ngatekeeper (hopefully in a nice way; I usually don't like meanness). I was just interested \nin what people might say if asked about their own such role here.\n \nSince the topic is up, Gerry did say something recently which left me puzzled, though not \noffended. It was something like, \"your theory on Shadow Children is bad but it is much \nbetter than your abyssmal theory on Father Inire\".\n \nThere are others who take a similar view of my Inire theory (still a work in progress)\nbut I am confused as to why it might provoke such rancor. The major premises it is based \non are:\n \n1. BotNS draws from Greek and other pagan mythology\n \n2. Greek and other pagan mythological gods often changed their shape and size and walked\nthe earth in various human and animal guises.\n \n3. It is a not-uncommon SF trope to conflate pagan gods and angels with aliens.\n \n4. In BotNS, Father Inire is an alien.\n\n5. In Tzadkiel/Zak we see an alien/angelic creature appear and reappear in various animal \nand human guises.\n \nThere are dozens of minor bits of evidence which can be added but just given these five\npremises I think it is very reasonable to consider that Father Inire appears and reappears\nin BotNS in various human and animal guises. This theory has helped me onto a path of\nunderstanding some mysteries about this story which had bothered me for years.\n \nI don't think or expect it would be so helpful for everyone else but is it really that bad?\nPerhaps Gerry or others can explain which of the five premises is false, irrelevant \nor otherwise invalid, thus making my theory of Father Inire the archetype of bad theories. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF6C3F0.8090509@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-01T21:53:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (01-12-2010 18:51):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are others who take a similar view of my Inire theory (still a\nwork in progress) but I am confused as to why it might provoke such\nrancor (...)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Might I repeat that it's some of your methods that irk some, rather than the\ncontent of your theories?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-02T19:25:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nJames Wynn: I should also say, Gerry, that I don't follow every thread \nreally\nclosely so I'm not exactly clear what you said to which Lee took offense.." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Since the topic is up, Gerry did say something recently which left me \npuzzled, though not\noffended. It was something like, \"your theory on Shadow Children is bad \nbut it is much\nbetter than your abyssmal theory on Father Inire\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just for the record, my objections to the Father Inire as omnipresent monkey \ntheory was not personal, I didn't erven think about who formulated it. Also \nit is not the worst theory in my mind, I reserve that honour for the \nSeverian-incest complex, which seems to go something like:\n\nX, Y, and Z (any females) must be close relatives of Severian because they \nhave [insert any hair colour] and because Severian only has sex with close \nrelatives. How do we know that Severian only has sex with close relatives? \nBecause he has sex with X, Y and Z.\n\nSorry if that one is yours too, Lee! But it's the one that bugs me the \nmost.\n\nIt is not so much the implausibility of the theories that bothers me, as the \nglobal implications. If somebody believes that Agia is a robot, for \nexample - well, I don't believe it but it affects very little anyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are others who take a similar view of my Inire theory (still a work \nin progress)\nbut I am confused as to why it might provoke such rancor. The major \npremises it is based\non are:\n\n1. BotNS draws from Greek and other pagan mythology\n\n2. Greek and other pagan mythological gods often changed their shape and \nsize and walked\nthe earth in various human and animal guises.\n\n3. It is a not-uncommon SF trope to conflate pagan gods and angels with \naliens.\n\n4. In BotNS, Father Inire is an alien.\n\n5. In Tzadkiel/Zak we see an alien/angelic creature appear and reappear in \nvarious animal\nand human guises." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And to me, those don't amount to even indicative value! Inire is an alien, \ncertainly, but he does not appear to be an alien of the same kind as \nTzadkiel. Tzadkiel is - as you note - a very special alien; indeed, he/she \nseems more like an angel. So I don't think Tzadkiel's abilities really tell \nus anything at all about the abilities of aliens in general!\n\nI will grant you that the cacogens do wear masks, and even masks over masks. \nBut it is a far cry from mask-wearing to the type of things that you are \nattributing to Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are dozens of minor bits of evidence which can be added but just \ngiven these five\npremises I think it is very reasonable to consider that Father Inire \nappears and reappears\nin BotNS in various human and animal guises. This theory has helped me \nonto a path of\nunderstanding some mysteries about this story which had bothered me for \nyears.\n\nI don't think or expect it would be so helpful for everyone else but is it \nreally that bad?\nPerhaps Gerry or others can explain which of the five premises is false, \nirrelevant\nor otherwise invalid, thus making my theory of Father Inire the archetype \nof bad theories." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'Some aliens have property X. Inire is an alien. Therefore Inire has \nproperty X.' This is a well-known logical fallacy.\n\nNow of course nothing I've said proves that Inire does not in fact go around \nin disguise behind the scenes, manipulating everyone and everything, in \naddition to his apparent role as a kind of Grand Vizier and advisor to the \nthe Autarch. But to believe it, I need evidence, and convincing me takes \nstronger evidence than somebody seeing a monkey in the jungle. Because you \nknow, even in a book by Gene Wolfe it could have been just a monkey!\n\n- Gerry" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-02T22:41:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn- It is not so much the implausibility of the theories that bothers me, as the \nglobal implications. If somebody believes that Agia is a robot, for example - well, I don't \nbelieve it but it affects very little anyway." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThanks Gerry. That is the most realistic explanation for the excessive rancor and venom my always\npolitely expressed ideas seem to cause. I think I was gonna go off the deep end if I heard one more\nwhiny cavil about how *\"I just don't like your delivery\"*.;- ). \n \nSomeone recently posted something like,\"hey, haven't we trimmed the branches enough? Let's get to the \nforest!\" That's a clarion call for me. I am not a particularly detail-oriented person. Any branch-trimming \nI do is always with the goal of forest in mind. So any idea I come up with is likely to be global in impact. \nAnd I can see why it might be upsetting if someone thought I was trying to uproot the forest.\n \nIn my view I am not attempting to uproot anything. It is the same story, same characters, same forest.\nI am just interested in looking at it from a different mountain top than others. I like seeing something\nfrom various perspectives but I know not everybody does (I think I've seen Niagra Falls from 10 different\nperspectives, each one added something- if you do visit do NOT miss the Maid of the Mist).\n \nIt is my feeling that Wolfe's work cannot be understood from just one perspective. It is necessary to perceive\nand maintain awareness at several interactive levels, SF, mythological, Christian at the least. I still fail \nto see why one of the perspectives I see is so especially controversial. \n \nGene Wolfe is an author deeply immersed in mythology. In Severian we have a character who resembles Greek and \nother mythological heroes in at least a dozen ways. Why is the additional attribute of a hidden, partially godly \ngenealogy, as was true for Hercules, Theseus, Perseus etc. such a fantastically absurd idea as to qualify it \nas worst ever? (the stuff about hair color sounds like Borski. I think it is interesting and generally fits \nbut is more branch-trimming than tree or forest).\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T04:45:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 2, 2010, at 2:25 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nNow of course nothing I've said proves that Inire does not in fact go around in disguise behind the scenes, manipulating everyone and everything, in addition to his apparent role as a kind of Grand Vizier and advisor to the the Autarch. But to believe it, I need evidence, and convincing me takes stronger evidence than somebody seeing a monkey in the jungle. Because you know, even in a book by Gene Wolfe it could have been just a monkey!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But we do know that Inire appears in disguise at least once, right? Why not more than once? I know you seek evidence, but because some evidence isn't 100% spelled out, does that mean it is not noteworthy, or not worth exploring unless it can be definitively proven?\n\nI think Wolfe has various shades of clue overtness in his books. Some more confirmed within the text (Dr. Talos as robot, for instance), some evidently laid out for us to conclude (Dorcas as Severian's grandmother, for instance), and some more obtuse (man at drowning at Gyoll as Dorcas's husband, for instance). Those clues also have various shades of significance, as well.\n\nIs Agia as robot significant? Well it may be, but the clues I have dug up in trying to test that theory are not extensive enough at this point to shed enough of an aureole of light on the matter. :)\n\nMy perception of the BotNS, in my readings, leads me more down the \"we're watching you,\" premise, where others may not feel that is as central to the story. I think Severian's entire journey is foreordained, and it's not just Famulimus, Barbatus and Ossipago (and the hiero's in general) doing the watching. I believe Severian and Inire (both proven time-meddlers) are also involved in shaping the Severian we follow into the New Sun. Are they in cahoots with the hiero's? Are they motivated by saving Urth? Urthlings? This is what I seek to understand. The religious undercurrent, the mythological parallels, that's all incidental to me. Novel, but only useful if they help reveal the turns of the novel itself.\n\nWhen you take this view, of course finding any possible evidence that Severian and/or Inire are watching/testing Severian ?3 is significant. The Autarch checks in on him throughout, right? The whole journey just feels staged to me, like The Truman Show, and that is significant as well. So when Severian takes time out in his tome to tell me that a red, wizened monkey is watching him from the jungle canopy, and that were it not for his arms he would think it human, yes I take note.\n\nAn example of inferred clues from SotT, after he knocks at the door in the Atrium of Time...\n\n\"There is really no describing the sensation of being watched. I have heard it called a prickling at the back of the neck, and even a consciousness of eyes that seem to float in darkness, but it is neither - at least, not for me. It is something akin to a sourceless embarrassment, coupled with the feeling that I must not turn around, because to turn will be to appear a fool, answering the promptings of baseless intuition. Eventually, of course, one does. I turned with the vague impression that someone had followed me through the hole at the base of the dial.\n\nInstead I saw a young woman wrapped in furs standing before a door at the opposite side of the court.\"\n\nSo here... am I alone in deducing that Severian the Apprentice senses Severian the Lame at his back, about to knock on that door in the future? Forgive me if these theories are old hat, but either way they relate to the point I am trying to make. To compliment the previous passage, at the end of CotA, here is the part where Severian the Lame revisits the Atrium of Time...\n\n\"I had feared I would have difficulty in squeezing through its narrow crevice, but if the present Severian was somewhat larger of bone, he was also leaner, so that when I had worked my shoulders through the rest followed easily enough.\n\nThe snow I recalled was gone, but a chill had come into the air to say that it would soon return. A few dead leaves, which must have been carried in some updraft very high indeed, had come to rest here among the dying roses. The tilted dials still cast their crazy shadows, useless as the dead clocks beneath them, though not so unmoving. The carven animals stared at them, unwinking still.\n\nI crossed to the door and tapped on it. The timorous old woman who had served us appeared, and I, stepping into that musty room in which I had warmed myself before, told her to bring Valeria to me. She hurried away, but before she was out of sight, something had wakened in the time-worn walls, its disembodied voices, hundred- tongued, demanding that Valeria report to some antiquely titled personage who I realized with a start must be myself.\"\n\nA chill had come into the air. Okay, just a chill in the air? Or did he walk past/through Severian the Apprentice? The dead leaves carried in a high updraft, or by Severian the Apprentice as he hurried up through the hole? The disembodied voices, maybe just Atrium antics, but there is a clear connection to him crossing and tapping on the door, when contrasted with Severian the Apprentice's sensation of being watched. Severian the Apprentice even goes so far as to assume someone had followed him through the hole.\n\n:)\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF8A489.4010001@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T08:04:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/2/2010 10:45 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nSo here... am I alone in deducing that Severian the Apprentice senses\nSeverian the Lame at his back, about to knock on that door in the\nfuture?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe this is the masking motif's sibling motif of intuition and \nsophistry used to build the theme of inevitable and simple truth being \nrevealed by the attempts to hide it.\n\nSev feels watched and presumes that the watcher had followed him \nthrough the tunnel. He turns and the sense of being watched is explained \nby Valeria who lives there. But, he *was* being followed by his future \nself, as we see in the latter passage. Both intuitions were correct, \nthough it did not seem so at the time.\n\nThat said, I think Apprentice Sev is sensing the slightly earlier Lame \nSev in the tunnel when he is earnestly following the younger's boot \nprints. By the time Lame Sev makes it into the atrium, his thoughts are \nall on Valeria. If it were merely presence, there would be nothing \nspecial about the atrium, as Severian commonly goes places he has \nalready been to in years previous." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T17:35:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 8:45 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But we do know that Inire appears in disguise at least once, right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do we? How?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2CA4EC37-5B3E-4371-A2DE-190F99D7D545@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-03T18:04:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 9:35 AM, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" wrote:\nOn Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 8:45 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But we do know that Inire appears in disguise at least once, right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do we? How?\n\n-- \nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, at the end of citadel Severian says that he knows Inire was with him in the north, so we assume that we saw him and that Inire was the Uturuncu." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF9357C.1020009@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T18:22:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "<2CA4EC37-5B3E-4371-A2DE-190F99D7D545@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Son of Witz wrote (03-12-2010 18:04):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 9:35 AM, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 8:45 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But we do know that Inire appears in disguise at least once, right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Do we? How?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, at the end of citadel Severian says that he knows Inire was with him in the north, so we assume that we saw him and that Inire was the Uturuncu." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "bUT IS THATA DIGUISE?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T18:24:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "<4CF9357C.1020009@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan: But we do know that Inire appears in disguise at least once, right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l: Do we? How?\n\nI don't think so. I always thought his most likely appearance was as the cowled servitor \nwho guides Severian to the thiasus. Next likely is the little uturuncu guide with the \nmonkey-head on a stick. He connects to Isangoma. After that the likelihood drops off \nsharply for such possibilities as the cynocephalus and the uakari, The Boatman, Fechin, \nRudesind, Hethor, Ossipago, Palaemon etc. on down." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: Well... yes: what makes him [Severian] so special?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAn interesting question. Let's apply it to Jesus. Your answer requires information gleaned\nfrom History/The Bible, prayer, religious leaders etc. How would you answer the question if\nyou were a contemporary of Jesus as a young man in his 20's?\n \nWhat would you do if you had a time machine which could transport you to the year 20 A.D. I \nthink many would try to get as close to Jesus as possible and watch him for extended periods of\ntime and try to figure out what was so special about him.\n \nMoreover if the CIA or Putin or Il had such a time machine, what would they do? Perhaps\nuse secret agents and spies? Advanced surveillance equipment? Perhaps even some experimental testing?\n \nI think Agia (for one) serves nicely in this role. She has access to Hethor and the mirrors and the \nperyton/pterodon for travel and viewing. So she's a little murderous...Actually if you were an \nunethical leader trying to learn the Secret of Life from a person you know cannot die before his \ntime, observing a few assassination attempts could be very instructive. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF9370F.9040602@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T18:29:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (03-12-2010 18:24):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: Well... yes: what makes him [Severian] so\nspecial?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "An interesting question. Let's apply it to Jesus. Your answer requires\ninformation gleaned from History/The Bible, prayer, religious leaders\netc. How would you answer the question if you were a contemporary of\nJesus as a young man in his 20's?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For all I know, what's special about the man Jesus are his teachings. That's \nthe key element I find missing from the 'Conciliator'." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T18:30:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "<4CF9357C.1020009@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Son of Witz wrote (03-12-2010 18:04):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, at the end of citadel Severian says that he knows Inire was with him\nin the north, so we assume that we saw him and that Inire was the Uturuncu." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummm ... This could simply mean that Inire was in the north at the\nsame time as Severian, could it not? And why would we assume that he\nwas the Uturuncu?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T18:33:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "<4CF9370F.9040602@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "2010/12/3 Ant?nio Pedro Marques :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For all I know, what's special about the man Jesus are his teachings. That's\nthe key element I find missing from the 'Conciliator'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, there's nothing terribly revolutionary about Jesus'\nteachings, though they were unusual coming from a Second Temple Jew.\nEither he was the Son of God or he was nobody important." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "palaeologos at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T18:33:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "<4CF9370F.9040602@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "2010/12/3 Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (03-12-2010 18:24):\n\n Antonio Pedro Marques: Well... yes: what makes him [Severian] so\nspecial?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "An interesting question. Let's apply it to Jesus. Your answer requires\ninformation gleaned from History/The Bible, prayer, religious leaders\netc. How would you answer the question if you were a contemporary of\nJesus as a young man in his 20's?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For all I know, what's special about the man Jesus are his teachings.\nThat's the key element I find missing from the 'Conciliator'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Really? What did he say that his antecedents didn't?\n\nChristianity considers Jesus' acts of much higher importance than his\nteachings--especially the redemptive act of sacrifice on the cross (or, if\nyou'd rather, the redemptive fact of his incarnation). It's liberal\nProtestantism in its post-Enlightenment instantiation which has given us\nthis fixation on teachings. Which isn't surprising, since once you deny\nChrist's divinity, you don't really have much else left." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Matt +\n\nEverything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it.\n Publilius Syrus (First century B.C.), Maxim 847" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF939D8.30102@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T18:41:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote (03-12-2010 18:33):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2010/12/3 Ant?nio Pedro Marques:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For all I know, what's special about the man Jesus are his teachings. That's\nthe key element I find missing from the 'Conciliator'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, there's nothing terribly revolutionary about Jesus'\nteachings, though they were unusual coming from a Second Temple Jew." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes there is. (The god is in the details.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Either he was the Son of God or he was nobody important." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then he must really be the Son of God, seeing as a sizable chunk of mankind \nclaims to be his follower." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF93A9A.70901@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T18:44:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Matthew Weber wrote (03-12-2010 18:33):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2010/12/3 Ant?nio Pedro Marques >\n\n Lee Berman wrote (03-12-2010 18:24):\n\n Antonio Pedro Marques: Well... yes: what makes him [Severian] so\n special?\n\n\n An interesting question. Let's apply it to Jesus. Your answer\n requires\n information gleaned from History/The Bible, prayer, religious\n leaders\n etc. How would you answer the question if you were a contemporary of\n Jesus as a young man in his 20's?\n\n\n For all I know, what's special about the man Jesus are his\n teachings. That's the key element I find missing from the 'Conciliator'.\n\nReally? What did he say that his antecedents didn't?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Please present his antecedents' teachings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Christianity considers Jesus' acts of much higher importance than his\nteachings--especially the redemptive act of sacrifice on the cross (or,\nif you'd rather, the redemptive fact of his incarnation). It's liberal\nProtestantism in its post-Enlightenment instantiation which has given us\nthis fixation on teachings. Which isn't surprising, since once you deny\nChrist's divinity, you don't really have much else left." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We're not talking about christianity. Lee asked what would a 20 AD Jew find \nspecial about Jesus." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "palaeologos at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T18:48:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "<4CF93A9A.70901@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "2010/12/3 Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Weber wrote (03-12-2010 18:33):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Really? What did he say that his antecedents didn't?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Please present his antecedents' teachings." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You'll find those teachings under the heading \"The Old Testament\". Enjoy.\n\nhttp://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/kjv/browse.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Christianity considers Jesus' acts of much higher importance than his\nteachings--especially the redemptive act of sacrifice on the cross (or,\nif you'd rather, the redemptive fact of his incarnation). It's liberal\nProtestantism in its post-Enlightenment instantiation which has given us\nthis fixation on teachings. Which isn't surprising, since once you deny\nChrist's divinity, you don't really have much else left." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We're not talking about christianity. Lee asked what would a 20 AD Jew find\nspecial about Jesus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's hard to say, since we have no record of anything Jesus did between\nthe ages of 12 and 30. He doesn't seem to have begun any public teaching\n(besides the episode in the synagogue at age 12) before his baptism by\nJohn. Very possibly a 20 AD Jew might not have found anything particularly\nspecial about him." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Matt +\n\nEverything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it.\n Publilius Syrus (First century B.C.), Maxim 847" } ] }, { "message_id": "<19544F9D-DF9F-4B3C-B5DD-2932235763C4@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T18:49:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 1:30 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nSon of Witz wrote (03-12-2010 18:04):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, at the end of citadel Severian says that he knows Inire was with him\nin the north, so we assume that we saw him and that Inire was the Uturuncu." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ummm ... This could simply mean that Inire was in the north at the\nsame time as Severian, could it not? And why would we assume that he\nwas the Uturuncu?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"The old man had a staff as crooked as himself, topped with the dried head of a monkey.\n\n\"A covered palanquin whose place in the column was considerably more advanced than my own bore the Autarch, whom my leech gave me to understand was still alive; and one night when my guards were chattering among themselves and I sat crouched over our little fire, I saw the old guide (his bent figure and the impression of an immense head conferred by his mask were unmistakable) approach this palanquin and slip beneath it. Some time passed before he scuttled away. This old man was said to be an uturuncu, a shaman capable of assuming the form of a tiger.\"\n\n. .\n\n\"Rudesind, we already know the answers to the question you think we are going to ask. We know your master is what the people call a cacogen, and that for whatever reason, he is one of those few who have chosen to cast their lots entirely with humanity, remaining on Urth as a human being. The Cumaean is another such, though perhaps you did not know that. We even know that your master was with us in the jungles of the north, where he tried until it was too late to rescue my predecessor.\"\n\n. .\n\nIs it still unclear from the text that Inire was disguised in the jungle? And how convenient he is disguised as a shape-shifting shaman.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<969E37F3-A37B-4D51-AAEE-7800414A44B7@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-03T18:50:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 10:33 AM, Matthew Weber wrote:\n\n\n2010/12/3 Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nLee Berman wrote (03-12-2010 18:24):\n\nAntonio Pedro Marques: Well... yes: what makes him [Severian] so\nspecial?\n\nAn interesting question. Let's apply it to Jesus. Your answer requires\ninformation gleaned from History/The Bible, prayer, religious leaders\netc. How would you answer the question if you were a contemporary of\nJesus as a young man in his 20's?\n\nFor all I know, what's special about the man Jesus are his teachings. That's the key element I find missing from the 'Conciliator'.\n\n\n\nReally? What did he say that his antecedents didn't?\n\nChristianity considers Jesus' acts of much higher importance than his teachings--especially the redemptive act of sacrifice on the cross (or, if you'd rather, the redemptive fact of his incarnation). It's liberal Protestantism in its post-Enlightenment instantiation which has given us this fixation on teachings. Which isn't surprising, since once you deny Christ's divinity, you don't really have much else left.\n\n-- \nMatt +" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wow, do Protestants not believe in the divinity of Christ? I didn't know that.\n\nI'm of the weird sort that believes in Christ /Logos without really believing in Jesus of Nazareth.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-03T18:53:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 10:30 AM, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" wrote:\nSon of Witz wrote (03-12-2010 18:04):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, at the end of citadel Severian says that he knows Inire was with him\nin the north, so we assume that we saw him and that Inire was the Uturuncu." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ummm ... This could simply mean that Inire was in the north at the\nsame time as Severian, could it not? And why would we assume that he\nwas the Uturuncu?\n\n-- \nDan'l Danehy-Oakes" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure. I'm not convinced either, but this list has got the monkey references in my head as the most likely answer, though not every monkey is him. \n\nI do think the Cowled Cenobite that leads Severian from The Autarch to the Green Room is Inire." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "palaeologos at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T18:55:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "<969E37F3-A37B-4D51-AAEE-7800414A44B7@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 10:50 AM, Son of Witz wrote:\n\n\nWow, do Protestants not believe in the divinity of Christ? I didn't know\nthat." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't say *all* Protestants--I said liberal Protestants. Think of\nUnitarians, Quakers, the more radical forms of Congregationalism.\n\nAlthough having said that, there is a pretty large number of people in the\nmainline Prot churches who don't believe in the divinity of Jesus, as well." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Matt +\n\nEverything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it.\n Publilius Syrus (First century B.C.), Maxim 847" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T18:57:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "<19544F9D-DF9F-4B3C-B5DD-2932235763C4@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\"The old man had a staff as crooked as himself, topped with the dried head of a monkey.\n\n\"A covered palanquin whose place in the column was considerably more advanced than my own bore the Autarch, whom my leech gave me to understand was still alive; and one night when my guards were chattering among themselves and I sat crouched over our little fire, I saw the old guide (his bent figure and the impression of an immense head conferred by his mask were unmistakable) approach this palanquin and slip beneath it. Some time passed before he scuttled away. This old man was said to be an uturuncu, a shaman capable of assuming the form of a tiger.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, that's pretty convincing, actually. I still think the cowled guy\nin the House Absolute is Inire too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is it still unclear from the text that Inire was disguised in the jungle? And how convenient he is disguised as a shape-shifting shaman." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, that does give a little oomph to the shape-shifter theory..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF93DB2.6070104@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T18:57:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Matthew Weber wrote (03-12-2010 18:48):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2010/12/3 Ant?nio Pedro Marques >\n\n Matthew Weber wrote (03-12-2010 18:33):\n\n Really? What did he say that his antecedents didn't?\n\n Please present his antecedents' teachings.\n\nYou'll find those teachings under the heading \"The Old Testament\". Enjoy.\n\nhttp://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/kjv/browse.html" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Come back when you have something to say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Christianity considers Jesus' acts of much higher importance\n than his\n teachings--especially the redemptive act of sacrifice on the\n cross (or,\n if you'd rather, the redemptive fact of his incarnation). It's\n liberal\n Protestantism in its post-Enlightenment instantiation which has\n given us\n this fixation on teachings. Which isn't surprising, since once\n you deny\n Christ's divinity, you don't really have much else left.\n\n We're not talking about christianity. Lee asked what would a 20 AD\n Jew find special about Jesus.\n\nThat's hard to say, since we have no record of anything Jesus did\nbetween the ages of 12 and 30. He doesn't seem to have begun any public\nteaching (besides the episode in the synagogue at age 12) before his\nbaptism by John. Very possibly a 20 AD Jew might not have found\nanything particularly special about him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which kind of inserts some conditions required for Lee's question, doesn't \nit? Namely that the jew would have to know Jesus well. Of course, some may \nthink it makes them look clever if they present some irrelevancy to justify \navoiding the question." } ] }, { "message_id": "<3B787D1A-0E89-466C-A12D-46266B8519E0@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T18:58:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 1:53 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nOn Dec 3, 2010, at 10:30 AM, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Son of Witz wrote (03-12-2010 18:04):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, at the end of citadel Severian says that he knows Inire was with him\nin the north, so we assume that we saw him and that Inire was the Uturuncu." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ummm ... This could simply mean that Inire was in the north at the\nsame time as Severian, could it not? And why would we assume that he\nwas the Uturuncu?\n\n-- \nDan'l Danehy-Oakes" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure. I'm not convinced either, but this list has got the monkey references in my head as the most likely answer, though not every monkey is him. \n\nI do think the Cowled Cenobite that leads Severian from The Autarch to the Green Room is Inire" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have no doubt Inire makes cameos. Severian tells Rudesind he knows of one, that being the appearance in the jungle. And it helps that the shaman is described thusly...\n\n\"The old man had a staff as crooked as himself, topped with the dried head of a monkey.\"\n\nOnly to see Inire described thusly, only a few pages later....\n\n\"...with him, no doubt, will be old, twisted Father Inire, eager to confer during the last few moments that remain; old Father Inire, alive so long beyond the span of his short-lived kind.\"\n\nI'm not sure where the mystery is. Unless you say Severian guessed wrong?\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "palaeologos at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T18:59:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "<4CF93DB2.6070104@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "2010/12/3 Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Weber wrote (03-12-2010 18:48):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2010/12/3 Ant?nio Pedro Marques >\n\n\n Matthew Weber wrote (03-12-2010 18:33):\n\n Really? What did he say that his antecedents didn't?\n\n Please present his antecedents' teachings.\n\nYou'll find those teachings under the heading \"The Old Testament\". Enjoy.\n\nhttp://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/kjv/browse.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Come back when you have something to say." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's rather ironic coming from you, isn't it?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Matt +\n\nEverything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it.\n Publilius Syrus (First century B.C.), Maxim 847" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T19:01:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, dear. We're back to the ad-hominem crap." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 10:59 AM, Matthew Weber wrote:\n\n\n2010/12/3 Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Matthew Weber wrote (03-12-2010 18:48):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "2010/12/3 Ant?nio Pedro Marques >\n\n? “Matthew Weber wrote (03-12-2010 18:33):\n\n? ? ? ?Really” “What did he say that his antecedents didn't”\n\n? “Please present his antecedents' teachings.\n\nYou'll find those teachings under the heading \"The Old Testament\".\n?Enjoy.\n\nhttp://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/kjv/browse.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Come back when you have something to say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's rather ironic coming from you, isn't it”\n--\nMatt +\n\nEverything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it.\n??? Publilius Syrus (First century B.C.), Maxim 847\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF93EB5.1020701@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T19:02:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Matthew Weber wrote (03-12-2010 18:59):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2010/12/3 Ant?nio Pedro Marques >\n\n Matthew Weber wrote (03-12-2010 18:48):\n\n\n 2010/12/3 Ant?nio Pedro Marques \n >>\n\n Matthew Weber wrote (03-12-2010 18:33):\n\n Really? What did he say that his antecedents didn't?\n\n Please present his antecedents' teachings.\n\n You'll find those teachings under the heading \"The Old\n Testament\". Enjoy.\n\n http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/kjv/browse.html\n\n Come back when you have something to say.\n\nThat's rather ironic coming from you, isn't it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Detail. Things which are very different may look the same at first sight." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF9405E.5060601@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T19:09:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " We're not talking about christianity. Lee asked what would a 20 AD\n Jew find special about Jesus.\n\n\n That's hard to say, since we have no record of anything Jesus did \nbetween the ages of 12 and 30. He doesn't seem to have begun any \npublic teaching (besides the episode in the synagogue at age 12) \nbefore his baptism by John. Very possibly a 20 AD Jew might not have \nfound anything particularly special about him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Time and dislocation have made the Gospels very Wolfean. Jesus was a \nvery controversial figure. A lot of people did want him arrested and \nhumiliated or just plain dead for what he said--presumably regarding the \nTemple and it's traditions. People are constantly trying to catch him up \nor talk himself into trouble. The disciples considered it suicide for \nthem to even enter Jerusalem. But the authorities only wanted to punish \nhim if they could avoid direct implication--presumably because most \npeople considered him a holy man because of his deeds. It's not until \nhis final insult--driving the money changers out of the Court of the \nGentiles that the leaders felt they had to \"fish or cut bait\".\n\nBut none of this is systematically explained. It's all related in \nsubtext. So it's not a straight-forward answer why he was so \ncontroversial, why he was attacked by mobs at least twice, etc. John's \nGospel says we have no more than a fraction of all he said.\n\nu+16b9" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-- \nMatt +\n\nEverything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it.\n Publilius Syrus (First century B.C.), Maxim 847\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T19:11:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "<4CF9405E.5060601@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Weber: That's hard to say, since we have no record of anything Jesus did between\nthe ages of 12 and 30." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nI chose to frame my question using Jesus at age 20 because of that record gap and because\nthat is Severian's approximate age at the beginning of BotNS.\n \nI suspect Wolfe chose to make Severian that age in part for the same reason. The story of\nperhaps the most important man in the Universe before he was notable. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T19:30:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 11:11 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI suspect Wolfe chose to make Severian that age in part for the same reason. The story of\nperhaps the most important man in the Universe before he was notable." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's an interesting take, since there are event-parallels to the\nthree major events shown in Jesus' adult life before He begins His\npublic ministry: that is, the baptism, the wedding at Cana\n(water-->wine), and the temptation in the desert." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2CB8CA5FF7364B4B927FBE1ABA922A3C@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-03T19:53:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \n2010/12/3 Ant?nio Pedro Marques :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For all I know, what's special about the man Jesus are his teachings. \nThat's\nthe key element I find missing from the 'Conciliator'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, there's nothing terribly revolutionary about Jesus'\nteachings, though they were unusual coming from a Second Temple Jew.\nEither he was the Son of God or he was nobody important." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Muslims would disagree. As I understand it they believe Jesus was not the \nSon of God, but still believe that he was a great prophet.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T19:57:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "<2CB8CA5FF7364B4B927FBE1ABA922A3C@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nFrom: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Actually, there's nothing terribly revolutionary about Jesus'\nteachings, though they were unusual coming from a Second Temple Jew.\nEither he was the Son of God or he was nobody important." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Muslims would disagree. ?As I understand it they believe Jesus was not the\nSon of God, but still believe that he was a great prophet." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But Muslims would also agree that there was nothing terribly\nrevolutionary about Isa's teachings; they would say that he taught the\nsame Qu'ran as Musa and Muhammed." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<855F9B5B-D483-40EF-8D08-564D34BB5705@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-03T20:03:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Foes of the Increate", "in_reply_to": "<4CF9405E.5060601@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Foes of the Increate\n\nThis analysis is based on the metaphysical concept that Verticality represents an orientation to the infinite, while the Horizontal represents normal time / history.\n\nAfter escaping from Thrax, Severian goes \"Into the Mountains\".\nAs he ascends vertically, he meets various foes of the Increate, ranked in a sort of hierarchy represented by their altitude. \n\nFirst he encounters the Alzabo, then descends a bit lower to the Zoanthropes, then up again to the Circle of Sorcerers, then way up to Typhon, then down somewhat to Baldanders, and eventually onto the Ascians.\n\nThe Alzabo:\nI’m not exactly clear on this one, but I can't help feel that it somehow represents fiends that would prey on the humble families of Urth. A very lowly sort. \n\nZoanthropes:\nZoanthropes are representative of that humanity that would reject their “God given” humanity, throwing that gift away to become mere beasts. \n\nCircle of Sorcerers:\nThey are trying to prevent the coming of the New Sun with Sorcery and Fakery. These represent Dark arts aimed towards the mastery of the mundane world. A corruption of magic and power. They would prevent the coming of the New Sun and the resurrection it would bring.\n\nTyphon\nAt the very summit of the mundane world, Severian meets the highest altitude foe, Typhon, a hard to miss analog for the Satan that offers Christ the kingdom of Earth. Typhon offers the world to Severian to Rule as Typhon's steward. Like Jesus, Severian rejects the offer. Furthermore, we have associations with Moloch and child sacrifice with Little Severian. Typhon says he drank the boys life energy. I assume this is the case rather than Severian waking him. I’m not sure though.\n\nBaldanders\nThe epitome of Scientific Materialism. He's at Lake Diaturna, which unless I'm mistaken is higher than the Jungle of the Sorcerers, but much lower than Mount Typhon. Baldanders would commit the classic sin of trying to “Storm the gates of Heaven”\n\n\nThe Ascians represent a Godless Humanity that gives up it’s humanity to be a uniform entity. These, I think, are also representative of the humanity that gave up their wild side in Urth’s past. The Heirogrammates and Aquastors? gave that wildness back to the humanity of the Commonwealth that they favor. To be honest, I have no idea what their altitude is, so I don’t know where they would fit into a hierarchy.\n\t\n~SonOfWitz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<00c001cb9326$e8595500$d8d04a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-12-03T20:15:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOh, dear. We're back to the ad-hominem crap." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What the hell have you got against grits? I like grits! With lots of butter.\nI mean, grits are made from ground hominy, right? And hominem is the\nsingular form of hominy, ain't it? Or is it the other way around?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3434F385-D327-4209-91CC-2A2E6A78CBF5@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T20:36:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Foes of the Increate", "in_reply_to": "<855F9B5B-D483-40EF-8D08-564D34BB5705@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aren't you missing two big (very, very big) antagonists of the Increate?\n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 2:03 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nFoes of the Increate\n\nThis analysis is based on the metaphysical concept that Verticality represents an orientation to the infinite, while the Horizontal represents normal time / history.\n\nAfter escaping from Thrax, Severian goes \"Into the Mountains\".\nAs he ascends vertically, he meets various foes of the Increate, ranked in a sort of hierarchy represented by their altitude. \n\nFirst he encounters the Alzabo, then descends a bit lower to the Zoanthropes, then up again to the Circle of Sorcerers, then way up to Typhon, then down somewhat to Baldanders, and eventually onto the Ascians.\n\nThe Alzabo:\nI’m not exactly clear on this one, but I can't help feel that it somehow represents fiends that would prey on the humble families of Urth. A very lowly sort. \n\nZoanthropes:\nZoanthropes are representative of that humanity that would reject their “God given” humanity, throwing that gift away to become mere beasts. \n\nCircle of Sorcerers:\nThey are trying to prevent the coming of the New Sun with Sorcery and Fakery. These represent Dark arts aimed towards the mastery of the mundane world. A corruption of magic and power. They would prevent the coming of the New Sun and the resurrection it would bring.\n\nTyphon\nAt the very summit of the mundane world, Severian meets the highest altitude foe, Typhon, a hard to miss analog for the Satan that offers Christ the kingdom of Earth. Typhon offers the world to Severian to Rule as Typhon's steward. Like Jesus, Severian rejects the offer. Furthermore, we have associations with Moloch and child sacrifice with Little Severian. Typhon says he drank the boys life energy. I assume this is the case rather than Severian waking him. I’m not sure though.\n\nBaldanders\nThe epitome of Scientific Materialism. He's at Lake Diaturna, which unless I'm mistaken is higher than the Jungle of the Sorcerers, but much lower than Mount Typhon. Baldanders would commit the classic sin of trying to “Storm the gates of Heaven”\n\n\nThe Ascians represent a Godless Humanity that gives up it’s humanity to be a uniform entity. These, I think, are also representative of the humanity that gave up their wild side in Urth’s past. The Heirogrammates and Aquastors? gave that wildness back to the humanity of the Commonwealth that they favor. To be honest, I have no idea what their altitude is, so I don’t know where they would fit into a hierarchy.\n \n~SonOfWitz\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "palaeologos at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T20:40:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "<4CF9405E.5060601@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 11:09 AM, James Wynn wrote:\n\n We're not talking about christianity. Lee asked what would a 20 AD Jew\nfind special about Jesus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " That's hard to say, since we have no record of anything Jesus did between\nthe ages of 12 and 30. He doesn't seem to have begun any public teaching\n(besides the episode in the synagogue at age 12) before his baptism by\nJohn. Very possibly a 20 AD Jew might not have found anything particularly\nspecial about him.\n\n\nTime and dislocation have made the Gospels very Wolfean. Jesus was a very\ncontroversial figure. A lot of people did want him arrested and humiliated\nor just plain dead for what he said--presumably regarding the Temple and\nit's traditions. People are constantly trying to catch him up or talk\nhimself into trouble. The disciples considered it suicide for them to even\nenter Jerusalem. But the authorities only wanted to punish him if they could\navoid direct implication--presumably because most people considered him a\nholy man because of his deeds. It's not until his final insult--driving the\nmoney changers out of the Court of the Gentiles that the leaders felt they\nhad to \"fish or cut bait\".\n\nBut none of this is systematically explained. It's all related in subtext.\nSo it's not a straight-forward answer why he was so controversial, why he\nwas attacked by mobs at least twice, etc. John's Gospel says we have no more\nthan a fraction of all he said." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's very understandable when you relate the things Jesus was saying\nto the prophetic tradition. The criticisms he was making of the Temple and\nits establishment weren't really very different from the things Hosea and\nAmos said about it. And the Temple establishment of Jesus' time (the\nSadducees) were collaborators with an occupying power, which made the\nsituation somewhat more complex; the Temple authorities were in a rush to\ndeal with Jesus before the Romans pre-empted them and removed from them what\nlittle power they still retained.\n\nWithout question the Gospels and other NT writings are high-context. But\nthe context is not unattainable." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Matt +\n\nEverything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it.\n Publilius Syrus (First century B.C.), Maxim 847" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1FFF7EA8-48CF-470A-9EF7-7C5ABDDE3697@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-03T20:47:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Foes of the Increate", "in_reply_to": "<3434F385-D327-4209-91CC-2A2E6A78CBF5@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I did't include Erebus, Abaia, or Juturna, because, on one hand, Severian doesn't really defeat them. Also, this vertical idea is pretty specific to SWORD, which finds Severian knocking them down like dominoes. I suppose we could place them into a hierarchy. Perhaps they're lowest position indicates them as completely opposite the Increate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 12:36 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nAren't you missing two big (very, very big) antagonists of the Increate?\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn Dec 3, 2010, at 2:03 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Foes of the Increate\n\nThis analysis is based on the metaphysical concept that Verticality represents an orientation to the infinite, while the Horizontal represents normal time / history.\n\nAfter escaping from Thrax, Severian goes \"Into the Mountains\".\nAs he ascends vertically, he meets various foes of the Increate, ranked in a sort of hierarchy represented by their altitude. \n\nFirst he encounters the Alzabo, then descends a bit lower to the Zoanthropes, then up again to the Circle of Sorcerers, then way up to Typhon, then down somewhat to Baldanders, and eventually onto the Ascians.\n\nThe Alzabo:\nI’m not exactly clear on this one, but I can't help feel that it somehow represents fiends that would prey on the humble families of Urth. A very lowly sort. \n\nZoanthropes:\nZoanthropes are representative of that humanity that would reject their “God given” humanity, throwing that gift away to become mere beasts. \n\nCircle of Sorcerers:\nThey are trying to prevent the coming of the New Sun with Sorcery and Fakery. These represent Dark arts aimed towards the mastery of the mundane world. A corruption of magic and power. They would prevent the coming of the New Sun and the resurrection it would bring.\n\nTyphon\nAt the very summit of the mundane world, Severian meets the highest altitude foe, Typhon, a hard to miss analog for the Satan that offers Christ the kingdom of Earth. Typhon offers the world to Severian to Rule as Typhon's steward. Like Jesus, Severian rejects the offer. Furthermore, we have associations with Moloch and child sacrifice with Little Severian. Typhon says he drank the boys life energy. I assume this is the case rather than Severian waking him. I’m not sure though.\n\nBaldanders\nThe epitome of Scientific Materialism. He's at Lake Diaturna, which unless I'm mistaken is higher than the Jungle of the Sorcerers, but much lower than Mount Typhon. Baldanders would commit the classic sin of trying to “Storm the gates of Heaven”\n\n\nThe Ascians represent a Godless Humanity that gives up it’s humanity to be a uniform entity. These, I think, are also representative of the humanity that gave up their wild side in Urth’s past. The Heirogrammates and Aquastors? gave that wildness back to the humanity of the Commonwealth that they favor. To be honest, I have no idea what their altitude is, so I don’t know where they would fit into a hierarchy.\n\n~SonOfWitz\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<537876.94623.qm@web81404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2010-12-03T20:49:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Foes of the Increate", "in_reply_to": "<1FFF7EA8-48CF-470A-9EF7-7C5ABDDE3697@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dude, you are DEEP into it...don't let those drags on the list get ya down\nHope you are feeling better...my new CD is out...maybe we could finally...shudder..meet ..over the Holidays...won 4 passes to the Academy of Sciences on KDFC yesterday,,,WooHoo!\n\n???????? ? ? \n?Mobile — (415) 786-3624\nSTUHAMM.COM\nFACEBOOK/STUARTHAMM\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\nSkype? stuart.hamm\n? ?? \n\n\n--- On Fri, 12/3/10, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) Foes of the Increate\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nCc: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, December 3, 2010, 12:47 PM\n\nI did't include Erebus, Abaia, or Juturna, because, on one hand, Severian doesn't really defeat them. Also, this vertical idea is pretty specific to SWORD, which finds Severian knocking them down like dominoes. I suppose we could place them into a hierarchy. Perhaps they're lowest position indicates them as completely opposite the Increate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 12:36 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nAren't you missing two big (very, very big) antagonists of the Increate?\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn Dec 3, 2010, at 2:03 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Foes of the Increate\n\nThis analysis is based on the metaphysical concept that Verticality represents an orientation to the infinite, while the Horizontal represents normal time / history.\n\nAfter escaping from Thrax, Severian goes \"Into the Mountains\".\nAs he ascends vertically, he meets various foes of the Increate, ranked in a sort of hierarchy represented by their altitude. \n\nFirst he encounters the Alzabo, then descends a bit lower to the Zoanthropes, then up again to the Circle of Sorcerers, then way up to Typhon, then down somewhat to Baldanders, and eventually onto the Ascians.\n\nThe Alzabo:\nI’m not exactly clear on this one, but I can't help feel that it somehow represents fiends that would prey on the humble families of Urth. A very lowly sort. \n\nZoanthropes:\nZoanthropes are representative of that humanity that would reject their “God given” humanity, throwing that gift away to become mere beasts. \n\nCircle of Sorcerers:\nThey are trying to prevent the coming of the New Sun with Sorcery and Fakery. These represent Dark arts aimed towards the mastery of the mundane world. A corruption of magic and power. They would prevent the coming of the New Sun and the resurrection it would bring.\n\nTyphon\nAt the very summit of the mundane world, Severian meets the highest altitude foe, Typhon, a hard to miss analog for the Satan that offers Christ the kingdom of Earth. Typhon offers the world to Severian to Rule as Typhon's steward. Like Jesus, Severian rejects the offer. Furthermore, we have associations with Moloch and child sacrifice with Little Severian. Typhon says he drank the boys life energy. I assume this is the case rather than Severian waking him. I’m not sure though.\n\nBaldanders\nThe epitome of Scientific Materialism. He's at Lake Diaturna, which unless I'm mistaken is higher than the Jungle of the Sorcerers, but much lower than Mount Typhon. Baldanders would commit the classic sin of trying to “Storm the gates of Heaven”\n\n\nThe Ascians represent a Godless Humanity that gives up it’s humanity to be a uniform entity. These, I think, are also representative of the humanity that gave up their wild side in Urth’s past. The Heirogrammates and Aquastors? gave that wildness back to the humanity of the Commonwealth that they favor. To be honest, I have no idea what their altitude is, so I don’t know where they would fit into a hierarchy.\n\n~SonOfWitz\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<250107.98478.qm@web81403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2010-12-03T20:51:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Foes of the Increate", "in_reply_to": "<1FFF7EA8-48CF-470A-9EF7-7C5ABDDE3697@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well didn't I hit the wrong button...Merry Christmas Y'all!\n\n???????? ? ? \n\n? ?? \n\n\n--- On Fri, 12/3/10, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) Foes of the Increate\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nCc: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, December 3, 2010, 12:47 PM\n\nI did't include Erebus, Abaia, or Juturna, because, on one hand, Severian doesn't really defeat them. Also, this vertical idea is pretty specific to SWORD, which finds Severian knocking them down like dominoes. I suppose we could place them into a hierarchy. Perhaps they're lowest position indicates them as completely opposite the Increate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 12:36 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nAren't you missing two big (very, very big) antagonists of the Increate?\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn Dec 3, 2010, at 2:03 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Foes of the Increate\n\nThis analysis is based on the metaphysical concept that Verticality represents an orientation to the infinite, while the Horizontal represents normal time / history.\n\nAfter escaping from Thrax, Severian goes \"Into the Mountains\".\nAs he ascends vertically, he meets various foes of the Increate, ranked in a sort of hierarchy represented by their altitude. \n\nFirst he encounters the Alzabo, then descends a bit lower to the Zoanthropes, then up again to the Circle of Sorcerers, then way up to Typhon, then down somewhat to Baldanders, and eventually onto the Ascians.\n\nThe Alzabo:\nI’m not exactly clear on this one, but I can't help feel that it somehow represents fiends that would prey on the humble families of Urth. A very lowly sort. \n\nZoanthropes:\nZoanthropes are representative of that humanity that would reject their “God given” humanity, throwing that gift away to become mere beasts. \n\nCircle of Sorcerers:\nThey are trying to prevent the coming of the New Sun with Sorcery and Fakery. These represent Dark arts aimed towards the mastery of the mundane world. A corruption of magic and power. They would prevent the coming of the New Sun and the resurrection it would bring.\n\nTyphon\nAt the very summit of the mundane world, Severian meets the highest altitude foe, Typhon, a hard to miss analog for the Satan that offers Christ the kingdom of Earth. Typhon offers the world to Severian to Rule as Typhon's steward. Like Jesus, Severian rejects the offer. Furthermore, we have associations with Moloch and child sacrifice with Little Severian. Typhon says he drank the boys life energy. I assume this is the case rather than Severian waking him. I’m not sure though.\n\nBaldanders\nThe epitome of Scientific Materialism. He's at Lake Diaturna, which unless I'm mistaken is higher than the Jungle of the Sorcerers, but much lower than Mount Typhon. Baldanders would commit the classic sin of trying to “Storm the gates of Heaven”\n\n\nThe Ascians represent a Godless Humanity that gives up it’s humanity to be a uniform entity. These, I think, are also representative of the humanity that gave up their wild side in Urth’s past. The Heirogrammates and Aquastors? gave that wildness back to the humanity of the Commonwealth that they favor. To be honest, I have no idea what their altitude is, so I don’t know where they would fit into a hierarchy.\n\n~SonOfWitz\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<95A66DE8-F7A1-4640-9E3D-3C18E9FA7050@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T20:54:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Foes of the Increate", "in_reply_to": "<250107.98478.qm@web81403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 3:51 PM, Stuart Hamm wrote:\nWell didn't I hit the wrong button...Merry Christmas Y'all!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "LOL.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1478D679-AACB-407A-963F-0A9FBF9E7CBF@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T20:55:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Foes of the Increate", "in_reply_to": "<250107.98478.qm@web81403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 2:51 PM, Stuart Hamm wrote:\nWell didn't I hit the wrong button...Merry Christmas Y'all!\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed.\n\nHowever, anyone on the list who will be in St. Louis and wants to meet, I'll be happy to, and even buy the first beer.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<451673.77543.qm@web81406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2010-12-03T20:58:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Foes of the Increate", "in_reply_to": "<1478D679-AACB-407A-963F-0A9FBF9E7CBF@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the first on is on..or all over .. ME in case any Y'all run into me!\n\n???????? ? ? \nI guess this will hurt sales of my new CD that has a track about astral dreaming your way onto the Whorl featuring Robert Fripp on Guitar......I hope that GW likes it...!!!\n? ?? \n\n\n--- On Fri, 12/3/10, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nFrom: Adam Thornton \nSubject: Re: (urth) Foes of the Increate\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, December 3, 2010, 12:55 PM\n\n\nOn Dec 3, 2010, at 2:51 PM, Stuart Hamm wrote:\nWell didn't I hit the wrong button...Merry Christmas Y'all!\n\n?\n\nIndeed.\nHowever, anyone on the list who will be in St. Louis and wants to meet, I'll be happy to, and even buy the first beer.\nAdam\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-03T21:06:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Foes of the Increate", "in_reply_to": "<250107.98478.qm@web81403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hahah.\nLet's hang. I'll show you my progress on my graphic novel.\n\n~Mike" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 12:51 PM, Stuart Hamm wrote:\nWell didn't I hit the wrong button...Merry Christmas Y'all!\n\n \n\n \n\n\n--- On Fri, 12/3/10, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) Foes of the Increate\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nCc: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, December 3, 2010, 12:47 PM\n\nI did't include Erebus, Abaia, or Juturna, because, on one hand, Severian doesn't really defeat them. Also, this vertical idea is pretty specific to SWORD, which finds Severian knocking them down like dominoes. I suppose we could place them into a hierarchy. Perhaps they're lowest position indicates them as completely opposite the Increate.\n\nOn Dec 3, 2010, at 12:36 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Aren't you missing two big (very, very big) antagonists of the Increate?\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn Dec 3, 2010, at 2:03 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Foes of the Increate\n\nThis analysis is based on the metaphysical concept that Verticality represents an orientation to the infinite, while the Horizontal represents normal time / history.\n\nAfter escaping from Thrax, Severian goes \"Into the Mountains\".\nAs he ascends vertically, he meets various foes of the Increate, ranked in a sort of hierarchy represented by their altitude. \n\nFirst he encounters the Alzabo, then descends a bit lower to the Zoanthropes, then up again to the Circle of Sorcerers, then way up to Typhon, then down somewhat to Baldanders, and eventually onto the Ascians.\n\nThe Alzabo:\nI’m not exactly clear on this one, but I can't help feel that it somehow represents fiends that would prey on the humble families of Urth. A very lowly sort. \n\nZoanthropes:\nZoanthropes are representative of that humanity that would reject their “God given” humanity, throwing that gift away to become mere beasts. \n\nCircle of Sorcerers:\nThey are trying to prevent the coming of the New Sun with Sorcery and Fakery. These represent Dark arts aimed towards the mastery of the mundane world. A corruption of magic and power. They would prevent the coming of the New Sun and the resurrection it would bring.\n\nTyphon\nAt the very summit of the mundane world, Severian meets the highest altitude foe, Typhon, a hard to miss analog for the Satan that offers Christ the kingdom of Earth. Typhon offers the world to Severian to Rule as Typhon's steward. Like Jesus, Severian rejects the offer. Furthermore, we have associations with Moloch and child sacrifice with Little Severian. Typhon says he drank the boys life energy. I assume this is the case rather than Severian waking him. I’m not sure though.\n\nBaldanders\nThe epitome of Scientific Materialism. He's at Lake Diaturna, which unless I'm mistaken is higher than the Jungle of the Sorcerers, but much lower than Mount Typhon. Baldanders would commit the classic sin of trying to “Storm the gates of Heaven”\n\n\nThe Ascians represent a Godless Humanity that gives up it’s humanity to be a uniform entity. These, I think, are also representative of the humanity that gave up their wild side in Urth’s past. The Heirogrammates and Aquastors? gave that wildness back to the humanity of the Commonwealth that they favor. To be honest, I have no idea what their altitude is, so I don’t know where they would fit into a hierarchy.\n\n~SonOfWitz\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T21:07:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I mentioned monkeys, but I also pointed out what I consider to be the flaw in your five main reasons for \nbelieving in the Inire theory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI read your response with anticipation and interest, but at the end found myself asking, \"so where was the flaw?\".\nSorry. Our thinking may be too diffrent to communicate effectively on some things." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand, isn't something of the sort intrinsic to the structure of *any* novel featuring a main character?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. Most novels do not have characters who stop mid-sentence and correct themselves in a manner suggesting they have \nforgotten their scripted lines, as Paleamon and Rudesind do. This, Severian's unreliability as a narrator and\nand other auctorial tricks suggest there are multiple levels of reader deception at work here to be unraveled." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And if I question theories in which two and two do not make four, I suppose \nit is only because I am a mathematician." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI can't say for sure whether that is a strength or weakness in understanding Gene Wolfe's\nstories. I think there is a level at which they can be read as straightforward, easily understandable\ntales. But for me there is another level for which a mathematical, logical approach is as effective\nas trying to calculate the number of pillars in this figure http://www.mrbartonmaths.com/images/Optical%20Illusions/legs.jpg\n \nI guess an example might be the conclusion many reach that the maid playing Holy Katharine is\nSeverian's mother, Catherine. What sense does that make? Unrelated characters, differently spelled names,\nand one isn't even the person's real name. Upon what can one make the connection? Hair color? \nTwo insignificant bits of information plus another two should not add up to a hugely important conclusion \nwith a value of 50. But for many readers they do. And Gene Wolfe shows over and over that he can make some \nof us do it. And others not. The question remains:\n \nWho's Right?\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<562526-1291410481-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1977472676-@bda123.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "from": { "name": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2010-12-03T21:07:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Foes of the Increate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So \"reply\" and \"reply all\" are different???\nWill wonders never cease...hope you like the artwork on the new CD....\nSent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSender: urth-bounces at lists.urth.netDate: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 13:06:36 \nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nReply-To: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Foes of the Increate" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF96077.4000008@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T21:26:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nauctorial" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Can anyone explian to me when to use this and when to use 'authorial'?\nThanks." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-03T21:26:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 1:07 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I mentioned monkeys, but I also pointed out what I consider to be the flaw in your five main reasons for \nbelieving in the Inire theory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I read your response with anticipation and interest, but at the end found myself asking, \"so where was the flaw?\".\nSorry. Our thinking may be too diffrent to communicate effectively on some things." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On the other hand, isn't something of the sort intrinsic to the structure of *any* novel featuring a main character?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No. Most novels do not have characters who stop mid-sentence and correct themselves in a manner suggesting they have \nforgotten their scripted lines, as Paleamon and Rudesind do. This, Severian's unreliability as a narrator and\nand other auctorial tricks suggest there are multiple levels of reader deception at work here to be unraveled." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And if I question theories in which two and two do not make four, I suppose \nit is only because I am a mathematician." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can't say for sure whether that is a strength or weakness in understanding Gene Wolfe's\nstories. I think there is a level at which they can be read as straightforward, easily understandable\ntales. But for me there is another level for which a mathematical, logical approach is as effective\nas trying to calculate the number of pillars in this figure http://www.mrbartonmaths.com/images/Optical%20Illusions/legs.jpg\n\nI guess an example might be the conclusion many reach that the maid playing Holy Katharine is\nSeverian's mother, Catherine. What sense does that make? Unrelated characters, differently spelled names,\nand one isn't even the person's real name. Upon what can one make the connection? Hair color? \nTwo insignificant bits of information plus another two should not add up to a hugely important conclusion \nwith a value of 50. But for many readers they do. And Gene Wolfe shows over and over that he can make some \nof us do it. And others not. The question remains:\n\nWho's Right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm of the opinion that if these puzzles don't yield real symbolic meat they aren't worth pursuing. That being said, the idea that the Katherine he symbolically beheads is is mother is Roast fucking Beef. Severian has to destroy Mother Urth. He says this memory is the start of his reminiscing. \n\nNow, I don't get the Contessa at all. Is she Catherine? It makes some sense. But theories say she might be the daughter of Valeria and Dux Caducius, but I don't see the evidence." } ] }, { "message_id": "<97F37431-4512-4EAC-8690-F0ED907669B6@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-03T21:30:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Foes of the Increate", "in_reply_to": "<562526-1291410481-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1977472676-@bda123.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reply all gets you the list and the individual. To reply to an individual use Reply all then delete the list. Which I'm not doing here in case it's usefull to anyone.\n\nI dig the cover. Saw it on facebook. With the source photo it works better than the idea you pitched me because of the scale the road sign would be. I look forward to hearing it. I notice no synthesizer credit, which makes me happy.\n\n~Mike" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 1:07 PM, hammstu at sbcglobal.net wrote:\nSo \"reply\" and \"reply all\" are different???\nWill wonders never cease...hope you like the artwork on the new CD....\nSent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSender: urth-bounces at lists.urth.netDate: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 13:06:36 " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF96260.3030102@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T21:34:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Foes of the Increate", "in_reply_to": "<250107.98478.qm@web81403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/3/2010 2:51 PM, Stuart Hamm wrote:\nWell didn't I hit the wrong button...Merry Christmas Y'all!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Merry Christmas, Stuart.\n\nSincerly,\nDrag on the List.\n;P" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T21:38:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Foes of the Increate", "in_reply_to": "<4CF96260.3030102@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, its too late now. ;- ). I'd hoped to put in a plea to change the Subject to\n\"Foes of the New Sun\". My image of a foe of the Increate is a guy pulling out a knife\nand attempting to stab every rock, tree, grain of sand, molecule of air and cell in \nhis own body..and then the stars....Surely the Increate loves all his creations equally, \nbe they friend or foe to the New Sun or even Himself (if that were possible). \n \n \nI really think all of Witz Progeny's enemies can be more specifically characterized as\nopposing the New Sun. None of them seem to be around on Ushas anyway (good reason to \nexclude Juturna). \n \nBy mentioning the Ascians, I think Witz sufficiently includes Abaia and Erebus. Those\nbig fat asses don't do anything themselves but only work through their agents. Which \nshould probably include Vodalus and his followers (eventually including Agia) as enemies\nof the New Sun. Vodalus wants to move humanity back to a former time of glory, not forward.\nHis \"pelagic\" secret code words suggest their connection to the sea monsters as does their\nassociation with the Ascian war effort. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-03T21:47:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Foes of the Increate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good points Lee.\n\nThat note was originally called Foes of the New Sun.\nI changed it because I'm trying to expose the metaphor behind the masks.\nAll of these types of foes represent classic denials of God and God's gifts.\nBy overcoming them, and breaking all alegiences, he aligns himself with the increate.\nIt is significant that after Baldanders, he finally finds the Pelerines and makes good on his promise to return the claw. I'm convinced the Pelerines are a standin for the remnants of a catholic style church of the Conciliator. So then, when Severian tries to bring Master Ash back to them, we get a clear indicator that he is now on the right path. He winks out of existance because the probability of his future is now nil, or next to nil." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 1:38 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\nWell, its too late now. ;- ). I'd hoped to put in a plea to change the Subject to\n\"Foes of the New Sun\". My image of a foe of the Increate is a guy pulling out a knife\nand attempting to stab every rock, tree, grain of sand, molecule of air and cell in \nhis own body..and then the stars....Surely the Increate loves all his creations equally, \nbe they friend or foe to the New Sun or even Himself (if that were possible). \n\n\nI really think all of Witz Progeny's enemies can be more specifically characterized as\nopposing the New Sun. None of them seem to be around on Ushas anyway (good reason to \nexclude Juturna). \n\nBy mentioning the Ascians, I think Witz sufficiently includes Abaia and Erebus. Those\nbig fat asses don't do anything themselves but only work through their agents. Which \nshould probably include Vodalus and his followers (eventually including Agia) as enemies\nof the New Sun. Vodalus wants to move humanity back to a former time of glory, not forward.\nHis \"pelagic\" secret code words suggest their connection to the sea monsters as does their\nassociation with the Ascian war effort. \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF96618.5010208@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T21:50:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Foes of the Increate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/3/2010 3:38 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nBy mentioning the Ascians, I think Witz sufficiently includes Abaia and Erebus. Those big fat asses don't do anything themselves but only work through their\nagents. Which should probably include Vodalus and his followers (eventually\nincluding Agia) as enemies of the New Sun. Vodalus wants to move humanity back\nto a former time of glory, not forward. His \"pelagic\" secret code words suggest\ntheir connection to the sea monsters as does their association with the Ascian war effort." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just as with the Storm King in AEG, the alien powers at the bottom of \nthe oceans only matter to humanity because of their followers.\n\nIt's sort of the same lesson as the inhumi. It's human venality that \nmake them powerful.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-03T21:51:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Foes of the Increate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 1:38 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nWitz Progeny's" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And by the way, LOL!\n\nMy progeny said he wanted his nickname to be Witz. I told him it was taken, and that if anything, he was SonOfSonOfWitz. \n\nNot sure what Bennewitz means. My HS german teacher said with Italian and German I was \" a good joke\" and if you replace hebrew for Italian I'm \"Son of Witz\"\n\n~Bennewitz" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "palaeologos at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T22:00:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Foes of the Increate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"-witz\" is a Germanized version of the Slavic suffix spelled variously as\n\"-vic,\" \"-wicz,\" \"-vich,\" etc. It means \"son of\" or \"family of\" or \"clan\nof\".\n\nSo I suppose that makes you \"Son of son\"? :)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\n\n\nOn Dec 3, 2010, at 1:38 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Witz Progeny's" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And by the way, LOL!\n\nMy progeny said he wanted his nickname to be Witz. I told him it was taken,\nand that if anything, he was SonOfSonOfWitz.\n\nNot sure what Bennewitz means. My HS german teacher said with Italian and\nGerman I was \" a good joke\" and if you replace hebrew for Italian I'm \"Son\nof Witz\"\n\n~Bennewitz\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T22:01:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n\nNo. Most novels do not have characters who stop mid-sentence and correct themselves in a manner suggesting they have\nforgotten their scripted lines, as Paleamon and Rudesind do. This, Severian's unreliability as a narrator and\nand other auctorial tricks suggest there are multiple levels of reader deception at work here to be unraveled." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rudesind is a special case. Shortly after fluffing his lines he _says_\nhe was told to say them. There isn't a mystery there as far as I can\nsee.\n\nI don't recall any passage where Palaemon seems to be forgetting\nscripted lines. There's a bit where he forgets a _fact_ - that Thrax\nis in the north - and then corrects himself. I think it's easy enough\nto see why - his own exile was in the south.\n\nI'm a bit at a loss here because I've come in at the end of an\nargument. Can you tell me briefly what the Inire theory is? It seems\nto me _obvious_ that Inire is keeping an eye on Severian and guiding\nhim - see Rudesind above. So is the Autarch - he explains this near\nthe end, including how he was alerted to Severian's significance by\nthe aquastor Paeon, and that he has a spy among the torturers - which\ncould be Palaemon, though I'm inclined to suspect Roche. I take it\nthe two are in cahoots, since Rudesind - Inire's servant - directs\nSeverian to the room where he meets the Autarch. None of this is a\nsecret. But I take it your theory goes further than this." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T22:03:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nI'm saying that at least four characters being described as monkeys is noteworthy in the text." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It cerainly looks as if it means something. Can you tell me who these\ncharacters are and where they are described as monkeys, so i can check\nit out?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<18F2244F-00DF-4929-91B3-1D65AB9ED782@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-03T22:07:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Foes of the Increate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks Weber.\nNow all of a sudden it doesn't seem horribly out of place to discuss it here, amongst discussions of a character with such looping origins." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 2:00 PM, Matthew Weber wrote:\n\"-witz\" is a Germanized version of the Slavic suffix spelled variously as \"-vic,\" \"-wicz,\" \"-vich,\" etc. It means \"son of\" or \"family of\" or \"clan of\". \n\nSo I suppose that makes you \"Son of son\"? :)\n\nOn Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\n\n\nOn Dec 3, 2010, at 1:38 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Witz Progeny's" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And by the way, LOL!\n\nMy progeny said he wanted his nickname to be Witz. I told him it was taken, and that if anything, he was SonOfSonOfWitz.\n\nNot sure what Bennewitz means. My HS german teacher said with Italian and German I was \" a good joke\" and if you replace hebrew for Italian I'm \"Son of Witz\"\n\n~Bennewitz\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<06E1F964-6555-48E1-9D5A-CCAFEA6A15E5@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-03T22:10:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Inire and Fechin are described as monkeylike. I think the others have monkey details, like the Uturuncu. I cant remeber how the magus Ceryx is described, though some suggest that is also Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 2:03 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nRyan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm saying that at least four characters being described as monkeys is noteworthy in the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It cerainly looks as if it means something. Can you tell me who these\ncharacters are and where they are described as monkeys, so i can check\nit out?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T22:35:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's right?", "in_reply_to": "<06E1F964-6555-48E1-9D5A-CCAFEA6A15E5@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nPrior to her elevation by Inire, Agia has been hanging out with a sexually degenerate little guy who came\nfrom outer space and is good with mirrors. ?Within a few hours of meeting Severian, Agia's actions result\nin the theft of the thousand-year old sacred gem of the Pelerines, a trip to Father Inire's creation and\nhangout the Botanic Gardens, some time travel, seeing a couple little bent guys, resurrection of his dead\ngrandmother and the death and resurrection of Severian.\n\nThat's pretty crazy. And completely weird unless we shift our perception of the events from random occurences\nto a a series of scheduled events, planned by someone with the knowledge, means and ability to do it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that there's more to Agia than mees the eye. There are a\ncouple of definite indicators of this: her use of the symbol of the\nJurupari (if that's what it was); Agilus' ribbons.\n\nBut I think there's a more general issue here, turning on what we're\nprepared to believe. There are clearly a number of people keeping an\neye on Severian and bringing about some of the weird events that take\nplace in his life; Inire and the Autarch; Agia (later, after her\nbrother's death, when she has a clear motive); the undines. But these\npeople, from what we know of them, don't explain all the strange\ncoincidences and turns of events that happen. Do we suppose there must\nbe a deeper (human or alien) conspiracy? Or do we.....\n\nBilbo was _meant_ to find the Ring; and not by its maker." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF97693.40702@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T23:00:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nMatthew Weber: That's hard to say, since we have no record of anything Jesus did between\nthe ages of 12 and 30." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I chose to frame my question using Jesus at age 20 because of that record gap and because\nthat is Severian's approximate age at the beginning of BotNS.\n\nI suspect Wolfe chose to make Severian that age in part for the same reason. The story of\nperhaps the most important man in the Universe before he was notable. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ha! It's a Bildungsroman!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T23:21:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 5:03 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nRyan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm saying that at least four characters being described as monkeys is noteworthy in the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It cerainly looks as if it means something. Can you tell me who these\ncharacters are and where they are described as monkeys, so i can check\nit out?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "RUDESIND:\n\n\"The old man cocked his head. 'Why, what help was they to begin? Do you know?'\n\n\"When I admitted I did not, he scrambled down from the ladder like an aged monkey, seeming all arms and legs and wrinkled neck; his hands were as long as my feet, the crooked fingers laced with blue veins. 'I'm Rudesind the curator.'\"\n\n\nINIRE:\n\n\"More fantastic still were the tales of his vizier, the famous Father Inire, who looked like a monkey and was the oldest man in the world.\"\n\n\nFECHIN:\n\n\"'He was the worst of us all, that Fechin. A tall, wild boy with red hair on his hands, on his arms. Like a monkey's arms, so that if you saw them reaching around the corner to take something, you'd think, except for the size, that it was a monkey taking it.'\t\"\n\n\"I looked at him, and he spread those long, thin, monkey arms...\"\n\n\nUTURUNCU/INIRE:\n(not described as a monkey, but crooked in stature and holding a staff with a monkey head.)\n\n\"The old man had a staff as crooked as himself, topped with the dried head of a monkey.\"\n\n\nAPE-DOG IN LAZARET:\n(not a person, but there's the monkey again, spying on Severian)\n\n\"An ape with the head of a dog ran down the aisle, paused at my bed to look at me, then ran on.\"\n\n\n\nMYSTERIOUS JUNGLE MONKEY-MAN:\n(deduced by Severian as a monkey, but definitely spying on Severian.)\n\n\"Birds unknown to me called overhead, and once a monkey who might, save for his four hands, have been a wizened, red-bearded man in fur, spied on me from a fork as high as a spire.\"\n\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-03T23:36:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 3:21 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nFECHIN:\n\n\"'He was the worst of us all, that Fechin. A tall, wild boy with red hair on his hands, on his arms. Like a monkey's arms, so that if you saw them reaching around the corner to take something, you'd think, except for the size, that it was a monkey taking it.' \"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What the hell is the purpose of the Fechin stories. What do they enhance? I haven't seen it yet." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T23:44:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 6:36 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nFECHIN:\n\n\"'He was the worst of us all, that Fechin. A tall, wild boy with red hair on his hands, on his arms. Like a monkey's arms, so that if you saw them reaching around the corner to take something, you'd think, except for the size, that it was a monkey taking it.' \"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What the hell is the purpose of the Fechin stories. What do they enhance? I haven't seen it yet." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rudesind is a reoccurring character, and he is the one telling his stories. There is something connecting Fechin to Inire, and if they are the same person, then it may be to demonstrate Inire also walking the corridors of time. I can't place the quote, but there was something in Rudesind's musings to suggest he was very old indeed.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF9855E.4000408@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-04T00:03:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\nWhat the hell is the purpose of the Fechin stories." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey! Someone speaking their mind! :D Love it, the more so for ending the \nquestion with an '.' (honest, I do)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<75BA5C6C-CC9D-42AB-90E9-538899B50644@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-04T00:17:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 4:03 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nSon of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What the hell is the purpose of the Fechin stories." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hey! Someone speaking their mind! :D Love it, the more so for ending the question with an '.' (honest, I do).\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Haha. Whoops?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 3:44 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nOn Dec 3, 2010, at 6:36 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "FECHIN:\n\n\"'He was the worst of us all, that Fechin. A tall, wild boy with red hair on his hands, on his arms. Like a monkey's arms, so that if you saw them reaching around the corner to take something, you'd think, except for the size, that it was a monkey taking it.' \"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What the hell is the purpose of the Fechin stories. What do they enhance? I haven't seen it yet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rudesind is a reoccurring character, and he is the one telling his stories. There is something connecting Fechin to Inire, and if they are the same person, then it may be to demonstrate Inire also walking the corridors of time. I can't place the quote, but there was something in Rudesind's musings to suggest he was very old indeed.\n\n...ryan\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rudesind does tell one Fechin story, but the long detailed story is told by Casdoe's father, which doesn't seem to support that idea." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF98E4F.5080907@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-04T00:41:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/3/2010 11:35 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 8:45 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But we do know that Inire appears in disguise at least once, right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do we? How?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I. Sev acknowledges to Rudesind that Inire is an alien, but living on \nUrth as a human - disguise #1.\n\nII. Inire's letter mentions he had to travel south by other methods - \nimplying he was in the north.\n\nIII. Severian mentions to Rudesind that Inire was with him in the north, \nattending the old Autarch.\n\nIV. Sev's travelogue mentions a masked man who slipped into the old \nAutarch's palanquin. The masked man is also small and bent as if with \ngreat age, the same as Inire - disguise #2." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF99160.6040506@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-04T00:54:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/3/2010 12:53 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nOn Dec 3, 2010, at 10:30 AM, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Son of Witz wrote (03-12-2010 18:04):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, at the end of citadel Severian says that he knows Inire was with him\nin the north, so we assume that we saw him and that Inire was the Uturuncu." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ummm ... This could simply mean that Inire was in the north at the\nsame time as Severian, could it not? And why would we assume that he\nwas the Uturuncu?\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure. I'm not convinced either, but this list has got the monkey references in my head as the most likely answer, though not every monkey is him.\n\nI do think the Cowled Cenobite that leads Severian from The Autarch to the Green Room is Inire." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree, though this is more of a dsep cover as the human advisor to the \nAutarch. The cowled cloak is to let him \"disguise\" himself by removing \nit - you'll note that the shaman's mask covers what is normally open, \nand the nakedness reveals what is normally covered, almost completely \nchanging his outward impression with the exchange of one for the other." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-04T01:02:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "<4CF98E4F.5080907@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Without going too far down the rabbit hole, Palaemon is not only masked as a Master torturer, but his eyes are hidden by a \"protruding optical device that permitted him to see\".\n\nAnd remember, Ossipago has \"no eyes at all\". Only darkness behind his middle aged man mask.\n\nIn the spirit of \"watchers,\" I can't help but make the remark openly. Sorry.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 7:41 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 12/3/2010 11:35 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 8:45 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But we do know that Inire appears in disguise at least once, right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Do we? How?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I. Sev acknowledges to Rudesind that Inire is an alien, but living on Urth as a human - disguise #1.\n\nII. Inire's letter mentions he had to travel south by other methods - implying he was in the north.\n\nIII. Severian mentions to Rudesind that Inire was with him in the north, attending the old Autarch.\n\nIV. Sev's travelogue mentions a masked man who slipped into the old Autarch's palanquin. The masked man is also small and bent as if with great age, the same as Inire - disguise #2.\n\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF9A850.3080908@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-04T02:32:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Foes of the Increate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/3/2010 3:38 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\nWell, its too late now. ;- ). I'd hoped to put in a plea to change the Subject to\n\"Foes of the New Sun\". My image of a foe of the Increate is a guy pulling out a knife\nand attempting to stab every rock, tree, grain of sand, molecule of air and cell in\nhis own body..and then the stars....Surely the Increate loves all his creations equally,\nbe they friend or foe to the New Sun or even Himself (if that were possible)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "THE RAPTURE, a film I have recommended here previously, discusses this \nat some length, and reveals what may be the only doctrinally accurate \nway to go about hurting God." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-04T04:16:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The idea of Palaemon as an Inire is interesting, but his conversation with Severian upon his return as Autarch finds Palaemon enraptured with the story. It does not strike me as the sort of response Inire would have. I think Palaemon was possibly used to steer Severian, at the very least." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 5:02 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nWithout going too far down the rabbit hole, Palaemon is not only masked as a Master torturer, but his eyes are hidden by a \"protruding optical device that permitted him to see\".\n\nAnd remember, Ossipago has \"no eyes at all\". Only darkness behind his middle aged man mask.\n\nIn the spirit of \"watchers,\" I can't help but make the remark openly. Sorry.\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Dec 3, 2010, at 7:41 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/3/2010 11:35 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 8:45 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "But we do know that Inire appears in disguise at least once, right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Do we? How?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I. Sev acknowledges to Rudesind that Inire is an alien, but living on Urth as a human - disguise #1.\n\nII. Inire's letter mentions he had to travel south by other methods - implying he was in the north.\n\nIII. Severian mentions to Rudesind that Inire was with him in the north, attending the old Autarch.\n\nIV. Sev's travelogue mentions a masked man who slipped into the old Autarch's palanquin. The masked man is also small and bent as if with great age, the same as Inire - disguise #2.\n\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-04T08:33:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Witz-ovitch: I'm of the opinion that if these puzzles don't yield real symbolic meat they aren't \nworth pursuing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAmen brother!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Witzendez: That being said, the idea that the Katherine he symbolically beheads is is mother is " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roast fucking Beef. Severian has to destroy Mother Urth.\n \nFar out! That is a great symbolic connection. I don't think I've seen it observed before." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "McWitz: Now, I don't get the Contessa at all. Is she Catherine? It makes some sense. But theories \nsay she might be the daughter of Valeria and Dux Caducius, but I don't see the evidence." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think the Dux idea was Borski's. Makes no sense to me either. But the Catherine-Contessa connection\ncame first from Borski I think. Credit where due. I think Dave Tallman's elaboration is very nice \nthough I always manage to put my own spin on things too. I think it was discussed in here last June or \nso. Worth posting a recap? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-04T08:54:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason: I agree that there's more to Agia than mees the eye. There are a\ncouple of definite indicators of this: her use of the symbol of the\nJurupari (if that's what it was); Agilus' ribbons." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAgilus' ribbons might be connected to the Jungle Sorcerers' masks. Agia uses a \nclaw weapon much like (perhaps identical) to those of the jungle guys to cut\nSeverian's face. \n \n(Actually I also find much hidden significance to Agia's other weapons-\nthe misericorde, the athame and the crooked dagger. I can elaborate if anyone is \ninterested.)\n \nThe Jurupari is a jungle demon. Also a fish known as the earth eater. And there is a\nthematic connection between the fish and the demon reminscent of Abaia and undines.\n \nAnd as mentioned before I am intrigued by how Agia herds Severian around Nessus and the \nCommonwealth and her association with a weird little guy from outer space who is clever\nwith mirrors (Inire-Hethor ambiguity intended). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFA07EF.10109@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-04T09:20:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/4/2010 2:54 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Andrew Mason: I agree that there's more to Agia than mees the eye. There are a\ncouple of definite indicators of this: her use of the symbol of the\nJurupari (if that's what it was); Agilus' ribbons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agilus' ribbons might be connected to the Jungle Sorcerers' masks. Agia uses a\nclaw weapon much like (perhaps identical) to those of the jungle guys to cut\nSeverian's face." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this is a wrong turn. The Jungle Sorcerer's wear visible, \nostentatious claws to frighten and impress so they don't have to fight. \nAgia's are concealable, intended to pass unnoticed until they strike an \nunaware victim." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-04T11:05:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "<4CFA07EF.10109@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: The Jungle Sorcerer's wear visible, ostentatious claws to frighten \nand impress so they don't have to fight. Agia's are concealable, intended to pass \nunnoticed until they strike an unaware victim." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nJeff, I had an exhausting debate on this issue a couple years ago I wouldn't want\nto repeat. So please take the following as an explanation of my own thinking and not \nat all attempt to change your thinking on the matter. \n \nIn the course of my interest in Agia's weapons and that debate I have excruciatingly \nsought out and parsed every sentence to be found on those two claw weapons. My conclusion\nis that the text absolutely allows for them to be identical and suggests they probably are. \nAgia's lucivee weapon is described as a metal bar with rings for thumb and fourth finger. \nThe attached blades are concealed in the palm when the hand is cupped. But when the the hand is\nopened for a slap, the blades serve as a palm weapon.\n \nMy debator (who was Mantis and the last thing I wanted was to debate with him) insisted that\nthe Sorcerers' claws were more like Wolverine (X-men) claws. And I agree, Severian's first\nview of them was probably like that. But Agia's lucivee would look like that if the hand was\nnot cupped or flat but fisted. Then the claws would extend from the back of the hand instead\nof the palm. The weapon can work either way.\n \nConsider this passage regarding the Sorcerer's claws:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Showing no sign of fear, the painted man walked up to me and extended hands. The steel talons\nemerged from between his fingers, being fastened to a narrow bar of iron he held in his palm\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThe extended hands had to be palm-up or Severian wouldn't have seen the iron bar. The rings for \nthe fingers aren't mentioned but in every other way, these claws seem identical to Agia's weapon. \nThe Sorcerers do use their claws to fight, in a battle where intimidation wouldn't be a factor- \nagainst the slug. I suspect they used the fist method rather than the slap method to avoid \ntouching it.\n \nIn the spirit of Witzkid, I would not haggle over such minutiae if there weren't an important \nprinciple or theme at work here. This is one I see repeated in BotNS numerous times as part of \nSeverian's unreliable narrator role. Severian is always comparing things to each other and finding\nsimilarities. Thus when two things are nearly identical and he doesn't notice it, it is a clue to \nthe reader, \"notice this!\" Another example might be his lack of notice that The Boatman's \ndescription of Father Inire could apply to himself. Another might be his failure to notice the \nsimilarity of medical apparatus in Typhon's chamber, Baldander's lab and perhaps the Witches Tower.\n \nSo, for me, the signifcance of Agia's claws are that she is associated with the explicitly anti-New \nSun Jungle Sorcerers though she does not appear in that scene. It helps answer the question of why a \ncold-weather city girl would be familiar with and drawing a jungle demon at a crucial time in her life.\n \n(btw- Severian does mention both Agia's claws and the Sorcerer's claws in UotNS but in a way that again\nsuggests they are different weapons, though they probably are not)\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<0232A869-5C62-4803-9461-344D257FD58A@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-04T13:46:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Dec 4, 2010, at 3:54 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nAndrew Mason: I agree that there's more to Agia than mees the eye. There are a\ncouple of definite indicators of this: her use of the symbol of the\nJurupari (if that's what it was); Agilus' ribbons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agilus' ribbons might be connected to the Jungle Sorcerers' masks. Agia uses a \nclaw weapon much like (perhaps identical) to those of the jungle guys to cut\nSeverian's face. \n\n(Actually I also find much hidden significance to Agia's other weapons-\nthe misericorde, the athame and the crooked dagger. I can elaborate if anyone is \ninterested.)\n\nThe Jurupari is a jungle demon. Also a fish known as the earth eater. And there is a\nthematic connection between the fish and the demon reminscent of Abaia and undines.\n\nAnd as mentioned before I am intrigued by how Agia herds Severian around Nessus and the \nCommonwealth and her association with a weird little guy from outer space who is clever\nwith mirrors (Inire-Hethor ambiguity intended). \t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Simpler still, we meet Agilus with a mask on. It looks real enough, and skeletal. He takes it off and reveals his \"real face\". He is laying there near dead, and Severian sees more ribbons.\n\nIsn't this more likely to connect to the Hiero's and their masks under masks? Two alien poppets for the price of one?\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<37DF5567-AC56-4A6A-9D9D-A10E37B8BF61@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-04T13:51:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "<0232A869-5C62-4803-9461-344D257FD58A@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 4, 2010, at 8:46 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nOn Dec 4, 2010, at 3:54 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Andrew Mason: I agree that there's more to Agia than mees the eye. There are a\ncouple of definite indicators of this: her use of the symbol of the\nJurupari (if that's what it was); Agilus' ribbons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Agilus' ribbons might be connected to the Jungle Sorcerers' masks. Agia uses a \nclaw weapon much like (perhaps identical) to those of the jungle guys to cut\nSeverian's face. \n\n(Actually I also find much hidden significance to Agia's other weapons-\nthe misericorde, the athame and the crooked dagger. I can elaborate if anyone is \ninterested.)\n\nThe Jurupari is a jungle demon. Also a fish known as the earth eater. And there is a\nthematic connection between the fish and the demon reminscent of Abaia and undines.\n\nAnd as mentioned before I am intrigued by how Agia herds Severian around Nessus and the \nCommonwealth and her association with a weird little guy from outer space who is clever\nwith mirrors (Inire-Hethor ambiguity intended). \t" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Simpler still, we meet Agilus with a mask on. It looks real enough, and skeletal. He takes it off and reveals his \"real face\". He is laying there near dead, and Severian sees more ribbons.\n\nIsn't this more likely to connect to the Hiero's and their masks under masks? Two alien poppets for the price of one?\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And no, I haven't forgotten how real his head is when it is lobbed off, but I am still trying to reconcile the ribbons, which almost have to indicate that his face is a mask, right? Unless I'm reading it wrong.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-04T15:28:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "<37DF5567-AC56-4A6A-9D9D-A10E37B8BF61@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 4, 2010, at 5:51 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nOn Dec 4, 2010, at 8:46 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Dec 4, 2010, at 3:54 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Andrew Mason: I agree that there's more to Agia than mees the eye. There are a\ncouple of definite indicators of this: her use of the symbol of the\nJurupari (if that's what it was); Agilus' ribbons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Agilus' ribbons might be connected to the Jungle Sorcerers' masks. Agia uses a \nclaw weapon much like (perhaps identical) to those of the jungle guys to cut\nSeverian's face. \n\n(Actually I also find much hidden significance to Agia's other weapons-\nthe misericorde, the athame and the crooked dagger. I can elaborate if anyone is \ninterested.)\n\nThe Jurupari is a jungle demon. Also a fish known as the earth eater. And there is a\nthematic connection between the fish and the demon reminscent of Abaia and undines.\n\nAnd as mentioned before I am intrigued by how Agia herds Severian around Nessus and the \nCommonwealth and her association with a weird little guy from outer space who is clever\nwith mirrors (Inire-Hethor ambiguity intended). " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Simpler still, we meet Agilus with a mask on. It looks real enough, and skeletal. He takes it off and reveals his \"real face\". He is laying there near dead, and Severian sees more ribbons.\n\nIsn't this more likely to connect to the Hiero's and their masks under masks? Two alien poppets for the price of one?\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And no, I haven't forgotten how real his head is when it is lobbed off, but I am still trying to reconcile the ribbons, which almost have to indicate that his face is a mask, right? Unless I'm reading it wrong.\n\n...ryan\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Those ribbons are a clear difficulty. It's easy to see the soothsayer's meaning, that Agilus is still presenting himself falsely to Severian. But how this works out in the ploughman's meaning is beyond me. I thought the heirodule mask idea good until you reminded me of the beheading, and that doesn't seem to work. Thinking further, a Heiro would have a reverse time perspective that should give him an advantage he clearly doesn't have.\n~Witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFCDB4F.6@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-06T12:47:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right?", "in_reply_to": "<4CF9405E.5060601@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James, I think that's a very insightful observation. Not just relevant \nto BOTNS etc., but to all of Wolfe's work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/3/2010 2:09 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " We're not talking about christianity. Lee asked what would a 20\n AD Jew find special about Jesus.\n\n\n That's hard to say, since we have no record of anything Jesus did \nbetween the ages of 12 and 30. He doesn't seem to have begun any \npublic teaching (besides the episode in the synagogue at age 12) \nbefore his baptism by John. Very possibly a 20 AD Jew might not have \nfound anything particularly special about him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Time and dislocation have made the Gospels very Wolfean. Jesus was a \nvery controversial figure. A lot of people did want him arrested and \nhumiliated or just plain dead for what he said--presumably regarding \nthe Temple and it's traditions. People are constantly trying to catch \nhim up or talk himself into trouble. The disciples considered it \nsuicide for them to even enter Jerusalem. But the authorities only \nwanted to punish him if they could avoid direct \nimplication--presumably because most people considered him a holy man \nbecause of his deeds. It's not until his final insult--driving the \nmoney changers out of the Court of the Gentiles that the leaders felt \nthey had to \"fish or cut bait\".\n\nBut none of this is systematically explained. It's all related in \nsubtext. So it's not a straight-forward answer why he was so \ncontroversial, why he was attacked by mobs at least twice, etc. John's \nGospel says we have no more than a fraction of all he said.\n\nu+16b9" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-- \nMatt +\n\nEverything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it.\n Publilius Syrus (First century B.C.), Maxim 847\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<347A77A1-C7DC-471D-A757-DD0B24287422@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-09T14:42:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Foes of the Increate", "in_reply_to": "<451673.77543.qm@web81406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 12:58 PM, Stuart Hamm wrote:\nI guess this will hurt sales of my new CD that has a track about astral dreaming your way onto the Whorl featuring Robert Fripp on Guitar......I hope that GW likes it...!!!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This must be Lucidity, right? Good track. The whole album is really enjoyable. I like the subdued vibe. Good stuff." } ] }, { "message_id": "<21533.15859.qm@web84103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-09T17:14:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Foes of the Increate", "in_reply_to": "<347A77A1-C7DC-471D-A757-DD0B24287422@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How did you get Fripp on there? I am impressed.\nI am not worthy etc.\n\n--- On Thu, 12/9/10, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) Foes of the Increate\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 9:42 AM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 12:58 PM, Stuart Hamm wrote:\nI guess this will hurt sales of my new CD that has a track about astral dreaming your way onto the Whorl featuring Robert Fripp on Guitar......I hope that GW likes it...!!!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This must be Lucidity, right? Good track. The whole album is really enjoyable. I like the subdued vibe. Good stuff." } ] }, { "message_id": "<839274.72404.qm@web114712.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-10T00:12:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Foes of the Increate", "in_reply_to": "<21533.15859.qm@web84103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No kidding. I guess when that Fripp plays it, you have to capitalize \"Guitar\".\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<710381.78005.qm@web81404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2010-12-10T16:57:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Foes of the Increate", "in_reply_to": "<21533.15859.qm@web84103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I first met The Great Roberto (that was his first stage name as an 8 year old magician) on a G3 Tour and we became friends...he has an amazing sense of humour if he doesn't think that you are a psycho-Crimson fan...and had the pleasure of playing him The Shaggs for the first time...you should have seen his face...!\nYes...extremely thrilled to have him on the CD.....\n\nNow...back to how Patera Quetzal got aboard the Whorl....presumably long before it reached orbit around B & G.....\n???????? ? ? \n?Mobile — (415) 786-3624\nSTUHAMM.COM\nFACEBOOK/STUARTHAMM\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\nSkype? stuart.hamm\n? ?? \n\n\n--- On Thu, 12/9/10, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n\nFrom: DAVID STOCKHOFF \nSubject: Re: (urth) Foes of the Increate\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 9:14 AM\n\nHow did you get Fripp on there? I am impressed.\nI am not worthy etc.\n\n--- On Thu, 12/9/10, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) Foes of the Increate\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 9:42 AM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 12:58 PM, Stuart Hamm wrote:\nI guess this will hurt sales of my new CD that has a track about astral dreaming your way onto the Whorl featuring Robert Fripp on Guitar......I hope that GW\n likes it...!!!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This must be Lucidity, right? Good track. The whole album is really enjoyable. I like the subdued vibe. Good stuff.\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D025F77.2070706@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-10T17:12:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Foes of the Increate", "in_reply_to": "<710381.78005.qm@web81404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Had no idea he was a young stage magician. I'm glad he found a better \nuse for his obviously quick fingers!\n\nAnd btw: no offense to psycho Crimson fans, right? ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/10/2010 11:57 AM, Stuart Hamm wrote:\nI first met The Great Roberto (that was his first stage name as an 8 \nyear old magician) on a G3 Tour and we became friends...he has an \namazing sense of humour if he doesn't think that you are a \npsycho-Crimson fan...and had the pleasure of playing him The Shaggs \nfor the first time...you should have seen his face...!\nYes...extremely thrilled to have him on the CD.....\n\nNow...back to how Patera Quetzal got aboard the Whorl....presumably \nlong before it reached orbit around B & G.....\n\nMobile (415) 786-3624\n*STUHAMM.COM*\nFACEBOOK/STUARTHAMM\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\nSkype stuart.hamm\n\n\n\n--- On *Thu, 12/9/10, DAVID STOCKHOFF //* wrote:\n\n\n From: DAVID STOCKHOFF \n Subject: Re: (urth) Foes of the Increate\n To: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \n Date: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 9:14 AM\n\n How did you get Fripp on there? I am impressed.\n\n I am not worthy etc.\n\n --- On *Thu, 12/9/10, Son of Witz //*\n wrote:\n\n\n From: Son of Witz \n Subject: Re: (urth) Foes of the Increate\n To: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \n Date: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 9:42 AM\n\n\n\n\n On Dec 3, 2010, at 12:58 PM, Stuart Hamm\n wrote:\n\n > I guess this will hurt sales of my new CD that has a track\n about astral dreaming your way onto the Whorl featuring Robert\n Fripp on Guitar......I hope that GW likes it...!!!\n\n\n This must be Lucidity, right? Good track. The whole album is\n really enjoyable. I like the subdued vibe. Good stuff.\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<753911.46469.qm@web81405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2010-12-10T17:36:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Foes of the Increate", "in_reply_to": "<4D025F77.2070706@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some of my best friends are psycho-Crimson fans....including moi!\n\n???????? ? ? \n?Mobile — (415) 786-3624\nSTUHAMM.COM\nFACEBOOK/STUARTHAMM\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\nSkype? stuart.hamm\n? ?? \n\n\n--- On Fri, 12/10/10, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nSubject: Re: (urth) Foes of the Increate\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, December 10, 2010, 9:12 AM\n\nHad no idea he was a young stage magician. I'm glad he found a better \nuse for his obviously quick fingers!\n\nAnd btw: no offense to psycho Crimson fans, right? ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/10/2010 11:57 AM, Stuart Hamm wrote:\nI first met The Great Roberto (that was his first stage name as an 8 \nyear old magician) on a G3 Tour and we became friends...he has an \namazing sense of humour if he doesn't think that you are a \npsycho-Crimson fan...and had the pleasure of playing him The Shaggs \nfor the first time...you should have seen his face...!\nYes...extremely thrilled to have him on the CD.....\n\nNow...back to how Patera Quetzal got aboard the Whorl....presumably \nlong before it reached orbit around B & G.....\n\nMobile? (415) 786-3624\n*STUHAMM.COM*\nFACEBOOK/STUARTHAMM\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\nSkype stuart.hamm\n\n\n\n--- On *Thu, 12/9/10, DAVID STOCKHOFF //* wrote:\n\n\n? ???From: DAVID STOCKHOFF \n? ???Subject: Re: (urth) Foes of the Increate\n? ???To: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \n? ???Date: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 9:14 AM\n\n? ???How did you get Fripp on there? I am impressed.\n\n? ???I am not worthy etc.\n\n? ???--- On *Thu, 12/9/10, Son of Witz //*\n? ???wrote:\n\n\n? ? ? ???From: Son of Witz \n? ? ? ???Subject: Re: (urth) Foes of the Increate" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-10T17:39:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Foes of the Increate", "in_reply_to": "<753911.46469.qm@web81405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 9:36 AM, Stuart Hamm wrote:\nSome of my best friends are psycho-Crimson fans....including moi!\n\nI like to think of myself as a non-psyco Crimson fan, but I suppose His" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Frippiness might disagree..." } ] } ] }