{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5793", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5793, "subject": "Problems of Interpretation", "messages": 9, "voices": 5, "first": "2010-12-01T18:01:30+00:00", "last": "2010-12-02T22:40:38+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-01T18:01:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problems of Interpretation", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nice post.\n\nI generally agree with what you say about \"the author's stated\nintentions or explanations of a text,\" for two reasons. The first is\nwhat Tolkien and Lewis called the \"Personal Heresy,\" the idea that the\nmost important tool for interpreting a text is the author's biography;\nthe second is that I have experienced people finding meanings in texts\nof mine which I never (consciously) put there but which, when pointed\nout to me, made complete sense.\n\nBut that latter is why I refuse the idea that facts about the author\nare completely irrelevant. The meaning which was pointed out to me had\nto do with some of my most deeply-held beliefs.\n\nMy position, then, is this: the writer's worldview cannot help but\ninform the way he writes about the world, and the type of meaning s/he\nconsciously _or unconsciously_ uses to structure his/her materials.\n\nThis does not mean, for example, that \"the meaning\" of every Lupine\ntext must be Catholic-Orthodox; in fact, given some of his texts, that\nwould be ludicrous. But it does mean that his deeply held Catholic\nbeliefs (as well as his other deeply-held beliefs, including his\nconservatism and his engineering orientation) _will_ be involved with\nhis creation of worlds. Just as important, however, is his close\ncontrol over what his _narrators_ believe about their worlds.\n\nTake TWK as an example: On the one hand, the cosmology of TWK is\nclearly _not_ Christian. On the other, it seems to be a non-Christian\ncosmology embedded in a _larger_ Christian cosmology. Does that make\nit a \"Christian book?\" I think not; that \"larger cosmology\" is too\nattenuated to be even visible to most casual readers. Certainly Able\nnever works that one out.\n\nIn this context, I think it is interesting that the only parts of the\nSolar cycle in which explicitly \"supernatural\" events take place is\nthe Long Sun, and the third-person sections of RttW. The \"miraculous\"\nevents in both the New and Short Suns have\nquasi-scientific/engineering explanations either on display or shortly\nbelow the surface. (Indeed, even the most important \"miracle\" in Long\nSun, Silk's enlightenment, is offered a rationalistic explanation by\nCrane: though I believe that we are to understand that the narrator\nrejects that explanation.) The reason this is important is because\nthese are precisely the parts of the Solar Cycle narrated by someone\nwho was not present at the events in question. Wolfe may be making a\npoint about the mythopoeic process here.\n\nSome specific comments." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Personally, I\nhave to say that any text that can only be understood in relation to something\noutside of it (an interview, a conversation with the author, etc.) is a flawed\ntext." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems to me that _no_ text can be understood purely on its own\nterms. All(?) texts (and this is certainly true of Wolfe) depend on\nallusion to other texts to help produce their overall richness." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe makes the problem of the intentional fallacy particularly...problematic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed: but then, I have always regarded it as problematic.\nIntentionality isn't a binary function, it's a cloudy range, from pure\nallegory (such as _Pilgrim's Progress_), where to ignore the author's\nintentions is to misread; to quasi-allegorical works (like Narnia and\n\"Leaf by Niggle\"), where the author's intention controls the reading\npretty closely; to stories (like _To Kill a Mockingbird_) where the\nauthor's intention is clear but other meanings are plausible; all the\nway to the sort of work (mostly \"pure entertainment\" like pulp\nfiction) where the author deliberately disclaims any intentions and\nattempts to act as a transparent reporter.\n\nWhere on this scale does Wolfe fall? (Which Lupine text?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "With puzzles, the author is always right. With interpretation,\nthat's less always the case. But with many of Wolfe's stories, it's difficult to\ntell when we just haven't understood the clues and when we're dealing with an\nambiguity that requires an act of interpretation on the reader's part. ...\nThe difficulty with Wolfe is that it's often hard to tell where the one stops\nand the other begins." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed, in interpreting Wolfe it is often difficult to tell what is a\n\"puzzle\" and what is \"interpretation.\" For example: there is\nintriguing (if not necessarily compelling) textual evidence, e.g., for\nthe \"Horn died in the pit/the Neighbors are the trees\" set of\ntheories. _If_ Wolfe deliberately planted this evidence and expects\nthe clever reader to find it and understand that Horn did die in the\npit and that the Neighbors are the trees, _then_ it's a puzzle. _But_\nthe answer to that puzzle radically changes the legitimate space for\ninterpreting the text!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(To make this relate to Wright, I think he's has every right to read New Sun\n*against* the religious meaning many of us might assume Wolfe intended. If\nthat's the reading the text ultimately supports - and, granted, that's the point\nof the debate with him - then that's what it supports. It doesn't matter at all\nwhat Wolfe thought he was writing or what we'd like it to mean if the text\nultimately goes in a Wright's direction. Lot of *IF*s there, of course, but I\nthink it's just really bad logic to say that Wright has to be wrong, a priori,\nbecause Wolfe is Catholic or because he's said in interviews that the book has a\n\"true\" religious meaning, or what have you. It always has to go back to the best\nreading of the books as we have them.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed so far as you go. But I think that a useful/interesting reading\nneeds to take the author's worldview into account, even if it\nultimately shows that the author has \"betrayed\" his/her intentions and\nwritten something inconsistent with them. In fact, if I understand\ncorrectly, the claim that it is (almost) always possible to show that\n(almost) any author has done so is the key (one might say the hinge)\nof the Deconstructionist movement in criticism. Then -- again, not\nhaving read Wright, this is pure speculation -- if Wright is saying,\n\"Wolfe may believe X, but his text says ~X,\" I'm good with that; but\nif Wright is simply _ignoring_ Wolfe's worldview, I think he's off the\nrails." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF6A69A.9040602@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-01T19:48:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Neighbors & Trees/Ash & Vine", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jane Delawney-\nSorry I appear to have missed the original reference (I get overwhelmed\nwith internet stuff quite often, blame my age) but regarding Ash and\nVine, I have always assumed that these are cognates / references to Ask\nand Embla (Ash and Vine, in translation) the first human couple of\npost-Fimbulwinter, post-Ragnarok Midgard in Norse tradition." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l-\nIndeed, in interpreting Wolfe it is often difficult to tell what is a\n\"puzzle\" and what is \"interpretation.\" For example: there is\nintriguing (if not necessarily compelling) textual evidence, e.g., for\nthe \"Horn died in the pit/the Neighbors are the trees\" set of\ntheories. _If_ Wolfe deliberately planted this evidence and expects\nthe clever reader to find it and understand that Horn did die in the\npit and that the Neighbors are the trees, _then_ it's a puzzle. _But_\nthe answer to that puzzle radically changes the legitimate space for\ninterpreting the text!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this quote by Dan'l is very insightful and well-put. The \nsolution to certain puzzles affect the way the text is read. And the way \none is inclined to read the text affects what solutions are tenable. \nSomeone once asked an atheist friend of mine why he didn't believe in \nGod. He responded: \"I don't see any evidence of it\". My thought at the \ntime was that I saw evidence to the contrary everywhere.\n\n---------------------\n\nBut on to my main point:\n\nThese references first by Jane (regarding Ask and Embla) and now again \nby Dan'l have got me thinking again about the Neighbor-Trees theory. \nDan'l only mentioned half the issue (maybe less than half). There are \nintriguing associations between the Neighbors and the Trees. But even \nmore so, there is evidence of an equivalency between the inhumi and the \nvines. At one point, someone claimed the Rajan's staff--made from a \nvine-- was an inhumi, that it had a face, that the Rajan talked to it at \nnight.\n\nFurthermore, the trees and vines are referenced as husband and wife:\n\"Have I made you see Green's jungles? The swamps and their dire \ninhabitants? The immense trees and the lianas clinging to them like \nbrides? [iGJ]\n\nA few pages later he compares Jahlee-in-tream-travel to a vine in the \nsame terms:\n\"I went over to watch Rigoglio, and in a moment more found Jahlee \nclinging to me like the lianas, her body warm and damp with perspiration \n(as those of inhumi never are), and fragrant with some heavy, cloying \nscent.\"\n\nThe references are there, but I haven't been able to figure out how it \ncould be (not uncommon for me). How the trees could be Neighbors I can \nget. But the inhumi as vines?\n\nSo, anyway, this post is intended as a \"proof of concept\". An attempt to \nshow that it is at least possible.\n\nSuppose the Neighbors that Horn encounters in the woods are in \ndream-travel. That's not hard. But suppose their physical beings are not \nmuch like their soul traveling bodies. Suppose they are trees. Suppose \nthat soul-traveling is their almost constant active state.\n\n\"The trees are bigger up the river. Bigger and older, and not so \nsleepy.\" [oBW]\n\nSuppose the trees and vines originated on Green. And suppose they \nachieved their soul travel ability through some power inherent in the \nvines, or alternately the vines have inherited something by clinging to \nthe Neighbors. But the vines are not sentient beings. Yet, through their \nphysical connection with the Neighbors, when the Neighbors soul \ntraveled, the clinging vines came along for the ride to become the \ninhumi--non-sentient animals.\n\nThe Neighbors--as active in soul travel as humans but as free to travel \nas the Rajan-- created their cities, fought their wars, and transported \nseeds and vines to Blue. I personally presume that the Neighbors did not \nhave the ability for space travel until the Whorl arrived. So the inhumi \nwere used for that purpose.\n\nAn inhumi who is born on Green, must simultaneously be born physically \nas a vine. And an inhumi that is born sentient is connected \nspiritually/psychically to its vine. So when the Rajan made a staff from \na vine, the inhumi --not killed by the destruction of its body-- \ncommunicates with the Rajan through it's vine-now-staff.\n\nNot only does this explain the Tree/Vines references (and add irony to \nsoup the colonists eat made from vines) but it explains something that \nhas always seemed more Fantasy than Science Fiction: the inhumi's power \nto absorb the souls of those on whom they fed and impart that soul to \ntheir children. The inhumi can do this because they are essentially \nSPIRITUAL/psychic beings.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002001cb91c6$d98ade60$afd04a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-12-02T02:15:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Neighbors & Trees/Ash & Vine", "in_reply_to": "<4CF6A69A.9040602@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nSo, anyway, this post is intended as a \"proof of concept\". An attempt to\nshow that it is at least possible.\n\nSuppose the Neighbors that Horn encounters in the woods are in\ndream-travel. That's not hard. But suppose their physical beings are not\nmuch like their soul traveling bodies. Suppose they are trees. Suppose\nthat soul-traveling is their almost constant active state.\n\n\"The trees are bigger up the river. Bigger and older, and not so\nsleepy.\" [oBW]\n\nSuppose the trees and vines originated on Green." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The books state that the Neighbors were native to Blue (lists, OBW, IGJ), so\nif they are trees they did not originate on Green." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And suppose they\nachieved their soul travel ability through some power inherent in the\nvines, or alternately the vines have inherited something by clinging to\nthe Neighbors. But the vines are not sentient beings. Yet, through their\nphysical connection with the Neighbors, when the Neighbors soul\ntraveled, the clinging vines came along for the ride to become the\ninhumi--non-sentient animals.\n\nThe Neighbors--as active in soul travel as humans but as free to travel\nas the Rajan-- created their cities, fought their wars, and transported\nseeds and vines to Blue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The migration of the Neighbors was the other way around. They were native to\nBlue and only later went to Green. That is why there are few ruins to be\nseen on Blue, but the ruins on Green still stand.\n\nThat is what Silkhorn told Hide in that chopped-up conversation about the\nVanished People they had while camped at the edge of that swamp after\nleaving Blanko. See particularly pages 352-53 of IGJ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I personally presume that the Neighbors did not\nhave the ability for space travel until the Whorl arrived. So the inhumi\nwere used for that purpose." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Silkhorn believed that the Neighbors had spaceships (ibid., 353). Inhumi\nwere introduced into the _Whorl_ by the Neighbors, presumably when they\nfirst boarded the ship as it neared the Short Sun system (RTTW, 232). If the\nrules for spirit travel are the same for Neighbors as they are for humans,\nthe spirit bodies of any inhumi they bring along will lose their fangs and\nother inhumi characteristics, as was the case for Fava, Jahlee and Juganu.\nQuetzal had fangs and was every bit an inhumu, therefore he did not get\nthere by spirit travel.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF71666.5090405@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-02T03:45:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Neighbors & Trees/Ash & Vine", "in_reply_to": "<002001cb91c6$d98ade60$afd04a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nSuppose the trees and vines originated on Green." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nThe books state that the Neighbors were native to Blue (lists, OBW, IGJ), so\nif they are trees they did not originate on Green." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "List oBW:\n\"Blue's sentient race.\"\nList iGJ:\n\"The name by which the sentient native race is known on Blue's western \ncontinent, the Vanished People.\"\n\nHmmm...I'm a member of America's sentient race but my race did not \noriginate there. American is the name by which the native race is known \nin the Northwestern continent. Others are known as Canadian. But that \nsays nothing about their origins.\nStill, I would have rather hoped that Wolfe would leave more breadcrumbs \nif the Neighbors had originated on Green. But then, he doesn't always \n(or often) leave as many breadcrumbs as I think he ought. I'd say mark \nthis as inconclusive with the weight toward NOT FROM GREEN. Still, on \nthe whole its fifty-fifty." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The migration of the Neighbors was the other way around. They were native to\nBlue and only later went to Green. That is why there are few ruins to be\nseen on Blue, but the ruins on Green still stand.\n\nThat is what Silkhorn told Hide in that chopped-up conversation about the\nVanished People they had while camped at the edge of that swamp after\nleaving Blanko. See particularly pages 352-53 of IGJ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, this conversation hurts. I'm inclined to trust the Rajan on the \ngeneral history of the Neighbors.\nI could say that the Neighbors transported their seeds to Green and that \nwas where they encountered the inhumi lianas except that the Rajan says, \nor strongly implies, that the inhumi were preying on the \"great beasts\" \nof Green before the Neighbors arrived." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Silkhorn believed that the Neighbors had spaceships (ibid., 353). Inhumi\nwere introduced into the _Whorl_ by the Neighbors, presumably when they\nfirst boarded the ship as it neared the Short Sun system (RTTW, 232). If the\nrules for spirit travel are the same for Neighbors as they are for humans,\nthe spirit bodies of any inhumi they bring along will lose their fangs and\nother inhumi characteristics, as was the case for Fava, Jahlee and Juganu.\nQuetzal had fangs and was every bit an inhumu, therefore he did not get\nthere by spirit travel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree they did not transport the inhumi to the Whorl by spirit travel. \nI'm not saying that. How they got them to the Whorl has always been a \nmystery. I'm sure no one would allow an alien lander to dock. It is \npossible the inhumi flew there. The Rajan believes the Neighbors \"must \nhave\" had landers. He doesn't say why he is so certain, but, again, I'm \ninclined to trust him. Maybe because they were trees? I don't know. \nStill, if the Neighbors had landers, where are they?\n\nThe Rajan says the Neighbors went to Green from Blue and that is where \nthey became \"wise\", presumably where they became \"Neighbors\". My \nconstruct is still technically possible but verrrry cumbersome. Alas, \nI'm still not sure how the inhumi could be vines.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-02T04:28:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Neighbors & Trees/Ash & Vine", "in_reply_to": "<4CF71666.5090405@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've been following the discussion with some interest. It really seems like\nHorn died in the pit. Aside from the other evidence mentioned, the chapter is\ncalled The End and Horn explicitly calls it his grave. Maybe I was conditioned\nby Severian's eidolon resurrection but I can remember thinking even on first\nreading that, \"okay, this guy really just died\". So something inexplicably brought\nhim back to life. I don't know the answer but I thought it must have something\nto do with Krait since that's who Horn sees him as he regains consciousness. I \nam interested in hearing more about James' theory regarding greenbuck and the \nNeighbors. It would help explain that other mystery- why Horn is so instantly \nrecognized and accepted by the Neighbors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey- Silkhorn believed that the Neighbors had spaceships" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think maybe this is also supported by the pit? It is large and circular\nand the vegetation in it is all new growth. Moreover there is a ring of\nblue glass encircling the pit. Fused sand from the heat of take-off rocket \nexhaust?\n \nSeawrack notes a similarity of the constructions in the pit to those she has\nseen underwater. Evidence of a Flood? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<00ef01cb91ea$ec6afb40$afd04a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-12-02T06:34:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Neighbors & Trees/Ash & Vine", "in_reply_to": "<4CF71666.5090405@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote:." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Still, I would have rather hoped that Wolfe would leave more breadcrumbs\nif the Neighbors had originated on Green. But then, he doesn't always\n(or often) leave as many breadcrumbs as I think he ought. I'd say mark\nthis as inconclusive with the weight toward NOT FROM GREEN. Still, on\nthe whole its fifty-fifty." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not even. Later in that same conversation with Hide, Silkhorn all but spells\nit out (IGJ, 355). The Neighbors were native to Blue. Further, on the same\npage Hide asked: \"What happened when all the Vanished People here were\ndead?\" Silkhorn answered: \"I'm not sure it ever occurred.\" \"A very few may\nhave survived; a very few may survive here still.\" There are more than a few\ntrees on Blue, including the big, old ones up the river on Shadelow you\nalluded to.\n\nI'll go one step further and give the quote that *should* put an end to this\nissue. It is from one of the Neighbors who gave Blue to humans: \"From this\nwhorl we sprang.\" (OBW, 271)\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree they did not transport the inhumi to the Whorl by spirit travel.\nI'm not saying that. How they got them to the Whorl has always been a\nmystery. I'm sure no one would allow an alien lander to dock. It is\npossible the inhumi flew there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "FWIW, Jahlee said that was too far for the inhumi to fly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Rajan believes the Neighbors \"must\nhave\" had landers. He doesn't say why he is so certain, but, again, I'm\ninclined to trust him. Maybe because they were trees? I don't know.\nStill, if the Neighbors had landers, where are they?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't care to argue the point, but Jahlee's \"slender tower\" (RTTW, 59) on\nthat cliff on Green has elements suggestive of the remnants of a spaceship.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF74529.2070209@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-02T07:05:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Neighbors & Trees/Ash & Vine", "in_reply_to": "<00ef01cb91ea$ec6afb40$afd04a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey -\nLater in that same conversation with Hide, Silkhorn all but spells\nit out (IGJ, 355). The Neighbors were native to Blue. Further, on\nthe same page Hide asked: \"What happened when all the Vanished People\nhere were dead?\" Silkhorn answered: \"I'm not sure it ever occurred.\"\n\"A very few may have survived; a very few may survive here still.\"\nThere are more than a few trees on Blue, including the big, old ones\nup the river on Shadelow you\nalluded to." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I said, I believe the Rajan when he says that the Neighbors came from \nBlue. Point made. But the fact that there are lots of trees means \nnothing...zero. I'm not sure why you think it does. The Neighbors who \nwere wiped out would not have been destroyed in their tree form. Their \ncorporal forms would have continued to live on. That's what happens when \nyou die in soul travel. Your body lives on and your soul dies. The dead \nNeighbors would have become nothing but regular ol' trees, right?\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF805D9.3080104@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-02T20:47:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus (was Neighbors & Trees/Ash & Vine)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman-\nI've been following the discussion with some interest. It really seems like\nHorn died in the pit. Aside from the other evidence mentioned, the chapter is\ncalled The End and Horn explicitly calls it his grave. Maybe I was conditioned\nby Severian's eidolon resurrection but I can remember thinking even on first\nreading that, \"okay, this guy really just died\". So something inexplicably brought\nhim back to life. I don't know the answer but I thought it must have something\nto do with Krait since that's who Horn sees him as he regains consciousness. I\nam interested in hearing more about James' theory regarding greenbuck and the\nNeighbors. It would help explain that other mystery- why Horn is so instantly recognized and accepted by the Neighbors." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Once again, for Lee....\n\nHorn on the ruinous island sees a Neighbor in the form of a greenbuck. \nHe chases after it, falls in a pit, breaks his neck and dies. The reason \nI say he breaks his neck (aside from being a likely way to die \ninstantaneously in that circumstance) is that Babbie and Seawrack see \nhim in that pit and know he is dead without having to go down there. The \nNeighbor feels guilt at having caused Horn's death (in a sense). This is \nthe guilt that haunts our Narrator throughout the story, and this guilt \nis the reason that he is adamant on being Horn instead of Silk....if he \ndeclares himself Silk or neither Horn nor Silk, it would mean that he \nhad killed Horn and that there was no way to truly repair it. At the end \nof the story, he is reported to say:\n*********************************\nRTTW (HB) pg 411\n \"We will sail tonight...Would you be willing to make my farewells to \nHoof and Hide?...I've been dreading it--in a sense, I have killed their \nfather, though the Outsider surely knows that I never meant him the \nleast harm. I don't want to have to face his sons...\"\n ********************************\nThe Neighbor's perspective on taking a life was detailed in the \nconversation between the Rajan and Hide when they are talking about \nHide's dream of seeing Mora and (I believe) dark Fava. I suspect there \nare hints about several things in that conversation, but the part I \nquote below explains how the greenbuck Neighbor sees guilt over causing \nthe death of another being.\n*********************\nRTTW (HB) pg 24\n\"I spoke of killing a man with this. I hadn't intended to kill him, but \nI was afraid he was going to kill us. I thought he might kill you or \nJahlee, and kept hitting him as hard as I could; when the fighting had \nended, I looked at him, and he was dead.\"\n\"It wasn't your fault, Father.\"\n\"Of course it was, and his as well. It was---it is---my fault that I \nkilled him. It is his fault that I bear the guilt of killing him, \nbecause he gave me good reason to fear him.\"\n*********************\nThe Neighbor revives Horn by possessing and repairing the damage (or \nseeming to at least). It takes three days to do that.\n\n_______________________\nThere's a lot in this thematically. 1) Christ was dead three days in the \ngrave and was resurrected.\n2) Secondly, 'The Book of the Long Sun' is mapped over the life of \nAristaeus at related by Robert Graves. Aristaeus's son Aktaion saw \nArtemis naked (Seawrack), and was changed into a deer, and torn apart by \nhis own hounds (Not Horn is killed by his own mutinous men).\n3) Thirdly, \"Neighbors\" is a term for fairies as noted by a character in \nAn Evil Guest. One is likely to encounter a white stag on the border of \nFairieland (which is the land of the dead) at which point --ala the \nMabinogion-- find a Aelf King/changling has taken your identity. \nAlternately, one enters Fairieland through a fairie circle, in this \ncase, Horn's circular grave.\n___________________________\n\nNow the \"new Horn\" is Horn's body and memory with the Neighbor *as his \nsoul*. The Neighbor, who we'll call HORN seeks to absolve his guilt by \ncompleting Horn's mission. He-Pen-Sheep and She-Pick-Berry seem to have \na lot of discourse with the Neighbors call him \"Neighbor-man\" OBW (HB) \npg 261&262\n\n Later HORN meets with Neighbors who give him a ring and the deed to \nBlue as a representative of his people. As he walks through the woods, \nthe trees get out of his way. They choose him because he is a mixture of \nNeighbor and human. A Mediator--a orthodox and gnostic Christian \ndesignation for Christ. One of the Neighbors shakes Horn's hand and they \n\"share blood\".\n\n**********************\noBW (HB) pg 272\n\"My name is Horn.\" I offered him my hand. He took it, and this time I \nfelt his hand and remembered hard, and seemed to be covered with short, \nstiff hairs. Beyond that I will not say. \"My name is Horn also, \" he \ntold me. I felt that I was being paid an immense compliment, and did not \nknow how to reply.\n**************\n\nThere's a obvious kind of mystery going on here. When he shares blood \nwith this Neighbor who afterward calls himself \"Horn\", the Narrator has \naccess to some of his former psyche or that of the Neighbor. But it is \nclear that \"Horn\" has ceased to be merely that boy who arrived from the \nWhorl. The Narrator says a few pages earlier that he does not remember \nthis event merely in fairly accurate terms, but precisely as it \noccurred. This is because he remembers it simultaneously from two \nseparate points of view: himself and the Neighbor with whom he clasped \nhands. This suggests that the Neighbors might have a loosely communal \nconsciousness or a communal personality like the Shadow Children or the \nchildren who were turned into a flock of geese in \"Peace\". Or maybe the \nNeighbor is HORN's spiritual self. Later on Green, as the Narrator lays \ndying he uses his ring to summon help to heal him again.\n*******************\n IGJ (HB) pg127\n\"Through the ring a Neighbor saw him, and she came to him in his agony. \nHe told her what was in his heart; and when he had finished, she said, \n\"I cannot make you well again, and if I could you would still be in this \nplace. I can do this for you, however, if you desire it. I can send your \nspirit into someone else, into someone whose own spirit is dying. If you \nwish, I will find someone in the whorl in which you were born. Then \nthere will be one whole man there, instead of two dying men, one here \nand another there.\"\n******************* /\n/\n From what she says, HORN's agony is not just in that he is dying \nbut//in that he is going to fail his mission. The Neighbor's solution \nsolves both those problems: giving him a workable body and putting him \non the Whorl. She complicates matters in some ways by choosing the \nobject of Horn's mission. Silk has slashed his wrists and arms in front \nof Hyacinth's casket. She sends HORN into Silk. Now he is the Neighbor, \nwhat the Neighbor remembers of Horn's memories, and Silk's body and \nmemories. I call him the Rajan, because that is what Wolfe calls him.\n\n**************************\n iGJ (HB) pg 122\n\"Was this you for real Incanto? Were you on Green? By Echidna's babies, \nI think you were!\" I shook my head and told him it had been someone \nelse, a man whose name I have forgotten, a man who wore a ring with a \nwhite stone. My own name is Horn, no matter what Oreb may say. \n***********************\n\nYou see, there is Horn and there is HORN and there is the Rajan...the \nman who begins writing the Book of the Short Sun, Incanto, Pike's Ghost. \nAt the end of the story, he ultimately realizes that he is neither most \ntruly Horn nor Silk, but the soul inside or, perhaps, something entirely \ndifferent from all three.\n\nAnd if there were any other doubt, there is \"Silk's\" inhuman but very \nNeighborly new abilities such as dream-traveling and \"sharing blood\"\n********************\niGJ (HB) pg 267\n\" 'We're going to attack you within an hour, Incanto. You'll be--' He \nfell silent, staring at me. 'Can you hear something I don't?'\n'Sing song,' Oreb suggested; and I did, following Seawrack's own \nintonation and pronunciation to the best of my very limited ability. [snip]\n'That is the language of the Neighbors, whom you call the Vanished \nPeople,' I said when I could no longer sing for weeping.\n'I can--' Terzo began. Then again, 'I can almost hear it myself.' He \nfell silent.\n_I put my hand upon his shoulder_ . 'Listen, and you will hear her. \nThose who truly listen do.'\nHe heard the music then, I know..\n*******************************\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-02T22:40:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4CF805D9.3080104@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nBut the part about minor gods being invited friends of Pas/Typhon is most interesting. Easy to see\nhow this could apply to Kypris. But who is the invited friend of Typhon from Urth who becomes mentioned\nin the Writings as The Outsider?\n\nI'm thinking it needs to be an Urthly resident who, like the Outsider, is associated with Dionysus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is it clear that Horn still sees the Outsider as a minor god? Silk\nstopped seeing him as one; Horn, as a devotee of Silk, is likely to\nhave done the same.\n\nSomewhere in _Long Sun_ someone, I think Marble, says that the\nOutsider was worshipped on the Short Sun Whorl - that does not seem to\nfit a friend of Typhon (but does fit the Increate)." } ] } ] }