{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5797", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5797, "subject": "Who's Right", "messages": 28, "voices": 9, "first": "2010-12-03T14:53:37+00:00", "last": "2010-12-07T16:03:49+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T14:53:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn- My perception of the BotNS, in my readings, leads me more down the \"we're watching you,\" \npremise, where others may not feel that is as central to the story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI'm with you on that Ryan. My Father Inire ideas can be rendered silly by focusing on the ephemera \nlike monkeys and hair color and ignoring the central theme which is that Severian is being watched and \nsteered. It is a common debator's trick.\n \nIn my view, Severian is being watched and steered by more than once force, forces which are, to some \ndegree, in opposition. Though, of course, by hammer and anvil analogy, the Increate needs both forces to \nshape Severian into what he must become.\n \nThere are the forces from the sky who are steering Severian toward creating Ushas and thus ensuring the\ncreation of their race. But I think there is also a faction on Urth that wants something else from Severian.\n \nAs I recently outlined in a private correspondence I think this \"something else\" can be winnowed from the\nwords of the Old Leech who has left Nessus to work for Vodalus in the Jungle seeking knowledge nobody else \nhas ever had. I think the target of his studies must be the only person who has such unique knowledge: Severian.\nHe alone in the universe has the \"knowledge\"/ability of true resurrection of the dead.\n \nMany of the episodes to which Severian seems steered towards can be interpreted as for the purpose of observing\nhim in action: Dorcas at the lake, avern duel, Little Severian, Typhon, Miles, Leech etc. Leaving Urth then \nreturning, the action resumes with Ceryx and Zama.\n \nThere has been much discussion on this board of Severian's resurrection powers, usually in a Christian context.\nI notice that the desire for resurrection from the dead is a recurring theme in pagan mythology. Gods and \nheroes are often going to the Underworld to try to restore a loved one, usually with poor results. On Urth\nthere are some sub-standard methods of resurrection as seen from Vodalus, The Cumaean and Ceryx. I can \nunderstand a conspiracy by the older powers to try to wrest the secret of true resurrection from the Christ-\nfigure before he becomes aware of his own special status. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T15:08:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To be even more pointed, I think the inclusion of stage plays and puppeteering and books within books is a huge clue that Severian's entire existence is something of a stage play, with him as the hero puppet.\n\nPeople debate the coincidences versus free thought, but to me it's all a ruse. Raise him in a guild, instill every trait possible, send him out into the world knowing he will end up at the war, guide him along his way but let him think he is a free man, in truth he is the opposite.\n\nWhat you're left with is a cast of characters in various states of awareness all acting out moments which comprise a greater mission: restore the New Sun, save Urth, help the hieros.\n\nIf previous Severians succeeded at this, we wouldn't be reading this one's tome.\n\nI mean so many characters have ulterior motives. Agia, Hethor, Inire, Palaemon, Autarch, Baldanders, previous Severians, even Jonas. All of their plans involve Severian as a key player, but who the hell is Severian? What makes him so special? A torturers apprentice? Orphaned? And yet sent on a crash course with the cosmos from such an early age.\n\nGetting away from mythology and religion, and focus on the actual guts of the story, the narration seems to point to a more holistic truism: That Severian is simply a puppet, and what we are reading in BotNS is what Pinnochio may have sounded like if it were written from Pinnochio's POV.\n\nThat's my opinion anyhow. If you subscribe to it, then the fun of re-reading is to follow the moves, look around the corner, call everything into question not out of paranoia or to make a theory fit, but to find the tricks. The hoodwinking. Gene has plenty of it in plain sight. Severian is almost constantly being deceived. But how much more can be interpreted this way which ISN'T in plain sight, but discoverable after some wise deduction.\n\nWere not reading Genes attempt at a Biblical tome, I dint think. We are reading a Fantasy Mystery book designed with a lighter hand. There's fun around each page, and reading it in this way, well then I think wondering why Agias skull sounds line a metal hammer when it taps concrete, or why we should care about a red, wizened, humankind monkey watching Severian from the treetops might be worth wondering.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 9:53 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ryan Dunn- My perception of the BotNS, in my readings, leads me more down the \"we're watching you,\" \npremise, where others may not feel that is as central to the story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm with you on that Ryan. My Father Inire ideas can be rendered silly by focusing on the ephemera \nlike monkeys and hair color and ignoring the central theme which is that Severian is being watched and \nsteered. It is a common debator's trick.\n\nIn my view, Severian is being watched and steered by more than once force, forces which are, to some \ndegree, in opposition. Though, of course, by hammer and anvil analogy, the Increate needs both forces to \nshape Severian into what he must become.\n\nThere are the forces from the sky who are steering Severian toward creating Ushas and thus ensuring the\ncreation of their race. But I think there is also a faction on Urth that wants something else from Severian.\n\nAs I recently outlined in a private correspondence I think this \"something else\" can be winnowed from the\nwords of the Old Leech who has left Nessus to work for Vodalus in the Jungle seeking knowledge nobody else \nhas ever had. I think the target of his studies must be the only person who has such unique knowledge: Severian.\nHe alone in the universe has the \"knowledge\"/ability of true resurrection of the dead.\n\nMany of the episodes to which Severian seems steered towards can be interpreted as for the purpose of observing\nhim in action: Dorcas at the lake, avern duel, Little Severian, Typhon, Miles, Leech etc. Leaving Urth then \nreturning, the action resumes with Ceryx and Zama.\n\nThere has been much discussion on this board of Severian's resurrection powers, usually in a Christian context.\nI notice that the desire for resurrection from the dead is a recurring theme in pagan mythology. Gods and \nheroes are often going to the Underworld to try to restore a loved one, usually with poor results. On Urth\nthere are some sub-standard methods of resurrection as seen from Vodalus, The Cumaean and Ceryx. I can \nunderstand a conspiracy by the older powers to try to wrest the secret of true resurrection from the Christ-\nfigure before he becomes aware of his own special status. \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF918A2.2040206@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T16:19:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (03-12-2010 14:53):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My Father Inire ideas can be rendered silly by focusing on the ephemera\nlike monkeys and hair color and ignoring the central theme which is that\nSeverian is being watched and steered. It is a common debator's trick." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's a trick to point out that there are problems with the evidence for any \ngiven thing?!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF91947.3060001@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T16:22:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote (03-12-2010 15:08):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I mean so many characters have ulterior motives. Agia, Hethor, Inire,\nPalaemon, Autarch, Baldanders, previous Severians, even Jonas. All of\ntheir plans involve Severian as a key player, but who the hell is\nSeverian? What makes him so special? A torturers apprentice? Orphaned?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well... yes: what makes him so special?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<840396A5-863C-4683-A12D-7FBDA4C14BFD@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-03T17:38:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, Severian is a puppet, an actor. He always was. Even the first time he puts on Fuligin it is an act. (when he heals Triskele).\n\nThe book states that he was chosen for his memory.\n\nIn UotNS L\n\"\"You're conscious. What do you remember?\" \"Everything,\" I said. \"I've always remembered everything.\" Dissolution was in the air, the fetor of rotting flesh. Famulimus sang, \"For that were you chosen, Severian. You and you alone from many princes. You alone to save your race from lethe.\"\n\nThen there is the exiled Tzadkiel he finds in the corridors of time. This Tzadkiel doesn't know why she is exiled, but it's possible that this point in the extreme past is when the heirogrammates became sure that he would bring the New Sun.\n\nYes, there are clearly opposing forces steering him, but what is confusing is that they end up consciously helping him. Baldanders fights for him at the Trial. Agia rescues him from Ascians.\n\nWhat I really don't get is Agia. She seems so random,but follows him all that way then replaces Vodalus. This weirds me out.\n\nI figure that before Severian walks in on Baldanders and the three Heirodules, they must have realized that he wanted to bring the New Sun, but that he wouldn't. So I guess they got an idea to put Baldanders in Severian's path. They would have done this when they were further down the time stream, before Severian meets Baldanders. There isn't much to support this, but it seems like it must have happened. I mean, why were they wandering performing that play? I think this is also why Baldanders never lets the play finish. Especially at the House Absolute. When he saw the Heirodules in the audience, he probably go enraged, realizing that they had played him to their purposes.\n\nI don't think that the interest in Severian is his ressurection powers. I think that is probably a surprise to most, if any of his enemies even know about it.\n\nI think the Heiros also sense his presence stretched through time. Just as the sleeper can be felt, or Apu Punchau can wake.\n\nI agree that it is not a biblical tome. I have only read the Sun Series and Latro, but these all seem to be memiors written by legends who don't know they are legends. How would an autobiography of Jesus or Hercules read. About the fun on each page - Yes! The inclusion of the Second House - everywhere coextensive with the first house, Is a clue as to how to read the story. severian wonders how many people came to the House Absolute hoping for intrigue, only to have it playing in the hidden halls an ell from their sleeping heads.\n\nHowever, the nature of the enemies he faces in Sword & Citadel are loaded with commentary on how to align oneself to the Increate, but that is a long essay. I think Wolfe is very serious about that.\n\n~Witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 7:08 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nTo be even more pointed, I think the inclusion of stage plays and puppeteering and books within books is a huge clue that Severian's entire existence is something of a stage play, with him as the hero puppet.\n\nPeople debate the coincidences versus free thought, but to me it's all a ruse. Raise him in a guild, instill every trait possible, send him out into the world knowing he will end up at the war, guide him along his way but let him think he is a free man, in truth he is the opposite.\n\nWhat you're left with is a cast of characters in various states of awareness all acting out moments which comprise a greater mission: restore the New Sun, save Urth, help the hieros.\n\nIf previous Severians succeeded at this, we wouldn't be reading this one's tome.\n\nI mean so many characters have ulterior motives. Agia, Hethor, Inire, Palaemon, Autarch, Baldanders, previous Severians, even Jonas. All of their plans involve Severian as a key player, but who the hell is Severian? What makes him so special? A torturers apprentice? Orphaned? And yet sent on a crash course with the cosmos from such an early age.\n\nGetting away from mythology and religion, and focus on the actual guts of the story, the narration seems to point to a more holistic truism: That Severian is simply a puppet, and what we are reading in BotNS is what Pinnochio may have sounded like if it were written from Pinnochio's POV.\n\nThat's my opinion anyhow. If you subscribe to it, then the fun of re-reading is to follow the moves, look around the corner, call everything into question not out of paranoia or to make a theory fit, but to find the tricks. The hoodwinking. Gene has plenty of it in plain sight. Severian is almost constantly being deceived. But how much more can be interpreted this way which ISN'T in plain sight, but discoverable after some wise deduction.\n\nWere not reading Genes attempt at a Biblical tome, I dint think. We are reading a Fantasy Mystery book designed with a lighter hand. There's fun around each page, and reading it in this way, well then I think wondering why Agias skull sounds line a metal hammer when it taps concrete, or why we should care about a red, wizened, humankind monkey watching Severian from the treetops might be worth wondering.\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Dec 3, 2010, at 9:53 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Ryan Dunn- My perception of the BotNS, in my readings, leads me more down the \"we're watching you,\" \npremise, where others may not feel that is as central to the story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm with you on that Ryan. My Father Inire ideas can be rendered silly by focusing on the ephemera \nlike monkeys and hair color and ignoring the central theme which is that Severian is being watched and \nsteered. It is a common debator's trick.\n\nIn my view, Severian is being watched and steered by more than once force, forces which are, to some \ndegree, in opposition. Though, of course, by hammer and anvil analogy, the Increate needs both forces to \nshape Severian into what he must become.\n\nThere are the forces from the sky who are steering Severian toward creating Ushas and thus ensuring the\ncreation of their race. But I think there is also a faction on Urth that wants something else from Severian.\n\nAs I recently outlined in a private correspondence I think this \"something else\" can be winnowed from the\nwords of the Old Leech who has left Nessus to work for Vodalus in the Jungle seeking knowledge nobody else \nhas ever had. I think the target of his studies must be the only person who has such unique knowledge: Severian.\nHe alone in the universe has the \"knowledge\"/ability of true resurrection of the dead.\n\nMany of the episodes to which Severian seems steered towards can be interpreted as for the purpose of observing\nhim in action: Dorcas at the lake, avern duel, Little Severian, Typhon, Miles, Leech etc. Leaving Urth then \nreturning, the action resumes with Ceryx and Zama.\n\nThere has been much discussion on this board of Severian's resurrection powers, usually in a Christian context.\nI notice that the desire for resurrection from the dead is a recurring theme in pagan mythology. Gods and \nheroes are often going to the Underworld to try to restore a loved one, usually with poor results. On Urth\nthere are some sub-standard methods of resurrection as seen from Vodalus, The Cumaean and Ceryx. I can \nunderstand a conspiracy by the older powers to try to wrest the secret of true resurrection from the Christ-\nfigure before he becomes aware of his own special status. \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T17:46:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right", "in_reply_to": "<840396A5-863C-4683-A12D-7FBDA4C14BFD@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you, for that response. I was beginning to think the name of the game here was to read someone else's theory and then make fun of it.\n\n:)\n\nI kid. I kid.\n\nI also think that your Famulimus quote is pointed, though just about all of the \"messages\" in UotNS are things I think Gene felt we should have deduced from the original four volumes. Not all of the story, but the messages drawn from them.\n\nAgain, thanks.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 12:38 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nYes, Severian is a puppet, an actor. He always was. Even the first time he puts on Fuligin it is an act. (when he heals Triskele).\n\nThe book states that he was chosen for his memory.\n\nIn UotNS L\n\"\"You're conscious. What do you remember?\" \"Everything,\" I said. \"I've always remembered everything.\" Dissolution was in the air, the fetor of rotting flesh. Famulimus sang, \"For that were you chosen, Severian. You and you alone from many princes. You alone to save your race from lethe.\"\n\nThen there is the exiled Tzadkiel he finds in the corridors of time. This Tzadkiel doesn't know why she is exiled, but it's possible that this point in the extreme past is when the heirogrammates became sure that he would bring the New Sun.\n\nYes, there are clearly opposing forces steering him, but what is confusing is that they end up consciously helping him. Baldanders fights for him at the Trial. Agia rescues him from Ascians.\n\nWhat I really don't get is Agia. She seems so random,but follows him all that way then replaces Vodalus. This weirds me out.\n\nI figure that before Severian walks in on Baldanders and the three Heirodules, they must have realized that he wanted to bring the New Sun, but that he wouldn't. So I guess they got an idea to put Baldanders in Severian's path. They would have done this when they were further down the time stream, before Severian meets Baldanders. There isn't much to support this, but it seems like it must have happened. I mean, why were they wandering performing that play? I think this is also why Baldanders never lets the play finish. Especially at the House Absolute. When he saw the Heirodules in the audience, he probably go enraged, realizing that they had played him to their purposes.\n\nI don't think that the interest in Severian is his ressurection powers. I think that is probably a surprise to most, if any of his enemies even know about it.\n\nI think the Heiros also sense his presence stretched through time. Just as the sleeper can be felt, or Apu Punchau can wake.\n\nI agree that it is not a biblical tome. I have only read the Sun Series and Latro, but these all seem to be memiors written by legends who don't know they are legends. How would an autobiography of Jesus or Hercules read. About the fun on each page - Yes! The inclusion of the Second House - everywhere coextensive with the first house, Is a clue as to how to read the story. severian wonders how many people came to the House Absolute hoping for intrigue, only to have it playing in the hidden halls an ell from their sleeping heads.\n\nHowever, the nature of the enemies he faces in Sword & Citadel are loaded with commentary on how to align oneself to the Increate, but that is a long essay. I think Wolfe is very serious about that.\n\n~Witz\n\nOn Dec 3, 2010, at 7:08 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To be even more pointed, I think the inclusion of stage plays and puppeteering and books within books is a huge clue that Severian's entire existence is something of a stage play, with him as the hero puppet.\n\nPeople debate the coincidences versus free thought, but to me it's all a ruse. Raise him in a guild, instill every trait possible, send him out into the world knowing he will end up at the war, guide him along his way but let him think he is a free man, in truth he is the opposite.\n\nWhat you're left with is a cast of characters in various states of awareness all acting out moments which comprise a greater mission: restore the New Sun, save Urth, help the hieros.\n\nIf previous Severians succeeded at this, we wouldn't be reading this one's tome.\n\nI mean so many characters have ulterior motives. Agia, Hethor, Inire, Palaemon, Autarch, Baldanders, previous Severians, even Jonas. All of their plans involve Severian as a key player, but who the hell is Severian? What makes him so special? A torturers apprentice? Orphaned? And yet sent on a crash course with the cosmos from such an early age.\n\nGetting away from mythology and religion, and focus on the actual guts of the story, the narration seems to point to a more holistic truism: That Severian is simply a puppet, and what we are reading in BotNS is what Pinnochio may have sounded like if it were written from Pinnochio's POV.\n\nThat's my opinion anyhow. If you subscribe to it, then the fun of re-reading is to follow the moves, look around the corner, call everything into question not out of paranoia or to make a theory fit, but to find the tricks. The hoodwinking. Gene has plenty of it in plain sight. Severian is almost constantly being deceived. But how much more can be interpreted this way which ISN'T in plain sight, but discoverable after some wise deduction.\n\nWere not reading Genes attempt at a Biblical tome, I dint think. We are reading a Fantasy Mystery book designed with a lighter hand. There's fun around each page, and reading it in this way, well then I think wondering why Agias skull sounds line a metal hammer when it taps concrete, or why we should care about a red, wizened, humankind monkey watching Severian from the treetops might be worth wondering.\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Dec 3, 2010, at 9:53 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Ryan Dunn- My perception of the BotNS, in my readings, leads me more down the \"we're watching you,\" \npremise, where others may not feel that is as central to the story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm with you on that Ryan. My Father Inire ideas can be rendered silly by focusing on the ephemera \nlike monkeys and hair color and ignoring the central theme which is that Severian is being watched and \nsteered. It is a common debator's trick.\n\nIn my view, Severian is being watched and steered by more than once force, forces which are, to some \ndegree, in opposition. Though, of course, by hammer and anvil analogy, the Increate needs both forces to \nshape Severian into what he must become.\n\nThere are the forces from the sky who are steering Severian toward creating Ushas and thus ensuring the\ncreation of their race. But I think there is also a faction on Urth that wants something else from Severian.\n\nAs I recently outlined in a private correspondence I think this \"something else\" can be winnowed from the\nwords of the Old Leech who has left Nessus to work for Vodalus in the Jungle seeking knowledge nobody else \nhas ever had. I think the target of his studies must be the only person who has such unique knowledge: Severian.\nHe alone in the universe has the \"knowledge\"/ability of true resurrection of the dead.\n\nMany of the episodes to which Severian seems steered towards can be interpreted as for the purpose of observing\nhim in action: Dorcas at the lake, avern duel, Little Severian, Typhon, Miles, Leech etc. Leaving Urth then \nreturning, the action resumes with Ceryx and Zama.\n\nThere has been much discussion on this board of Severian's resurrection powers, usually in a Christian context.\nI notice that the desire for resurrection from the dead is a recurring theme in pagan mythology. Gods and \nheroes are often going to the Underworld to try to restore a loved one, usually with poor results. On Urth\nthere are some sub-standard methods of resurrection as seen from Vodalus, The Cumaean and Ceryx. I can \nunderstand a conspiracy by the older powers to try to wrest the secret of true resurrection from the Christ-\nfigure before he becomes aware of his own special status. \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-03T18:02:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey I can relate Ryan. My posts are usually ignored unless I acidently offend Catholics.\n\nYeah, I didn't quite agree with my friend who turned me onto these when he said, \"Everything is in the four books.\" only on this last read did I realize he was right.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 9:46 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nThank you, for that response. I was beginning to think the name of the game here was to read someone else's theory and then make fun of it.\n\n:)\n\nI kid. I kid.\n\nI also think that your Famulimus quote is pointed, though just about all of the \"messages\" in UotNS are things I think Gene felt we should have deduced from the original four volumes. Not all of the story, but the messages drawn from them.\n\nAgain, thanks.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Dec 3, 2010, at 12:38 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, Severian is a puppet, an actor. He always was. Even the first time he puts on Fuligin it is an act. (when he heals Triskele).\n\nThe book states that he was chosen for his memory.\n\nIn UotNS L\n\"\"You're conscious. What do you remember?\" \"Everything,\" I said. \"I've always remembered everything.\" Dissolution was in the air, the fetor of rotting flesh. Famulimus sang, \"For that were you chosen, Severian. You and you alone from many princes. You alone to save your race from lethe.\"\n\nThen there is the exiled Tzadkiel he finds in the corridors of time. This Tzadkiel doesn't know why she is exiled, but it's possible that this point in the extreme past is when the heirogrammates became sure that he would bring the New Sun.\n\nYes, there are clearly opposing forces steering him, but what is confusing is that they end up consciously helping him. Baldanders fights for him at the Trial. Agia rescues him from Ascians.\n\nWhat I really don't get is Agia. She seems so random,but follows him all that way then replaces Vodalus. This weirds me out.\n\nI figure that before Severian walks in on Baldanders and the three Heirodules, they must have realized that he wanted to bring the New Sun, but that he wouldn't. So I guess they got an idea to put Baldanders in Severian's path. They would have done this when they were further down the time stream, before Severian meets Baldanders. There isn't much to support this, but it seems like it must have happened. I mean, why were they wandering performing that play? I think this is also why Baldanders never lets the play finish. Especially at the House Absolute. When he saw the Heirodules in the audience, he probably go enraged, realizing that they had played him to their purposes.\n\nI don't think that the interest in Severian is his ressurection powers. I think that is probably a surprise to most, if any of his enemies even know about it.\n\nI think the Heiros also sense his presence stretched through time. Just as the sleeper can be felt, or Apu Punchau can wake.\n\nI agree that it is not a biblical tome. I have only read the Sun Series and Latro, but these all seem to be memiors written by legends who don't know they are legends. How would an autobiography of Jesus or Hercules read. About the fun on each page - Yes! The inclusion of the Second House - everywhere coextensive with the first house, Is a clue as to how to read the story. severian wonders how many people came to the House Absolute hoping for intrigue, only to have it playing in the hidden halls an ell from their sleeping heads.\n\nHowever, the nature of the enemies he faces in Sword & Citadel are loaded with commentary on how to align oneself to the Increate, but that is a long essay. I think Wolfe is very serious about that.\n\n~Witz\n\nOn Dec 3, 2010, at 7:08 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "To be even more pointed, I think the inclusion of stage plays and puppeteering and books within books is a huge clue that Severian's entire existence is something of a stage play, with him as the hero puppet.\n\nPeople debate the coincidences versus free thought, but to me it's all a ruse. Raise him in a guild, instill every trait possible, send him out into the world knowing he will end up at the war, guide him along his way but let him think he is a free man, in truth he is the opposite.\n\nWhat you're left with is a cast of characters in various states of awareness all acting out moments which comprise a greater mission: restore the New Sun, save Urth, help the hieros.\n\nIf previous Severians succeeded at this, we wouldn't be reading this one's tome.\n\nI mean so many characters have ulterior motives. Agia, Hethor, Inire, Palaemon, Autarch, Baldanders, previous Severians, even Jonas. All of their plans involve Severian as a key player, but who the hell is Severian? What makes him so special? A torturers apprentice? Orphaned? And yet sent on a crash course with the cosmos from such an early age.\n\nGetting away from mythology and religion, and focus on the actual guts of the story, the narration seems to point to a more holistic truism: That Severian is simply a puppet, and what we are reading in BotNS is what Pinnochio may have sounded like if it were written from Pinnochio's POV.\n\nThat's my opinion anyhow. If you subscribe to it, then the fun of re-reading is to follow the moves, look around the corner, call everything into question not out of paranoia or to make a theory fit, but to find the tricks. The hoodwinking. Gene has plenty of it in plain sight. Severian is almost constantly being deceived. But how much more can be interpreted this way which ISN'T in plain sight, but discoverable after some wise deduction.\n\nWere not reading Genes attempt at a Biblical tome, I dint think. We are reading a Fantasy Mystery book designed with a lighter hand. There's fun around each page, and reading it in this way, well then I think wondering why Agias skull sounds line a metal hammer when it taps concrete, or why we should care about a red, wizened, humankind monkey watching Severian from the treetops might be worth wondering.\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Dec 3, 2010, at 9:53 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Ryan Dunn- My perception of the BotNS, in my readings, leads me more down the \"we're watching you,\" \npremise, where others may not feel that is as central to the story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I'm with you on that Ryan. My Father Inire ideas can be rendered silly by focusing on the ephemera \nlike monkeys and hair color and ignoring the central theme which is that Severian is being watched and \nsteered. It is a common debator's trick.\n\nIn my view, Severian is being watched and steered by more than once force, forces which are, to some \ndegree, in opposition. Though, of course, by hammer and anvil analogy, the Increate needs both forces to \nshape Severian into what he must become.\n\nThere are the forces from the sky who are steering Severian toward creating Ushas and thus ensuring the\ncreation of their race. But I think there is also a faction on Urth that wants something else from Severian.\n\nAs I recently outlined in a private correspondence I think this \"something else\" can be winnowed from the\nwords of the Old Leech who has left Nessus to work for Vodalus in the Jungle seeking knowledge nobody else \nhas ever had. I think the target of his studies must be the only person who has such unique knowledge: Severian.\nHe alone in the universe has the \"knowledge\"/ability of true resurrection of the dead.\n\nMany of the episodes to which Severian seems steered towards can be interpreted as for the purpose of observing\nhim in action: Dorcas at the lake, avern duel, Little Severian, Typhon, Miles, Leech etc. Leaving Urth then \nreturning, the action resumes with Ceryx and Zama.\n\nThere has been much discussion on this board of Severian's resurrection powers, usually in a Christian context.\nI notice that the desire for resurrection from the dead is a recurring theme in pagan mythology. Gods and \nheroes are often going to the Underworld to try to restore a loved one, usually with poor results. On Urth\nthere are some sub-standard methods of resurrection as seen from Vodalus, The Cumaean and Ceryx. I can \nunderstand a conspiracy by the older powers to try to wrest the secret of true resurrection from the Christ-\nfigure before he becomes aware of his own special status. \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF93667.5080101@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T18:26:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right", "in_reply_to": "<840396A5-863C-4683-A12D-7FBDA4C14BFD@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Son of Witz wrote (03-12-2010 17:38):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What I really don't get is Agia. She seems so random,but follows him all\nthat way then replaces Vodalus. This weirds me out." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I keep thinking Agia is the single most important (erm... okay, second most\nimportant) character in the books and there must be so much about her no one\nhas uncovered yet." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T18:54:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right", "in_reply_to": "<4CF93667.5080101@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son o' Witz- What I really don't get is Agia. She seems so random,but follows him all that way then \nreplaces Vodalus. This weirds me out." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "More specifically, Agia is installed as the Vodalarii leader by Father Inire, replacing Thea who isn't\ndoing such a good job. Hm...why exactly does Inire think this enemy of the Commonwealth, Ascian \ncollaborator group needs a strong leader?\n \nPrior to her elevation by Inire, Agia has been hanging out with a sexually degenerate little guy who came\nfrom outer space and is good with mirrors. Within a few hours of meeting Severian, Agia's actions result\nin the theft of the thousand-year old sacred gem of the Pelerines, a trip to Father Inire's creation and \nhangout the Botanic Gardens, some time travel, seeing a couple little bent guys, resurrection of his dead \ngrandmother and the death and resurrection of Severian.\n \nThat's pretty crazy. And completely weird unless we shift our perception of the events from random occurences\nto a a series of scheduled events, planned by someone with the knowledge, means and ability to do it. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<3ABE16A40B1B495F9B91F48E2ACB322E@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-03T20:07:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ryan Dunn- My perception of the BotNS, in my readings, leads me more down \nthe \"we're watching you,\"\npremise, where others may not feel that is as central to the story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm with you on that Ryan. My Father Inire ideas can be rendered silly by \nfocusing on the ephemera\nlike monkeys and hair color and ignoring the central theme which is that \nSeverian is being watched and\nsteered. It is a common debator's trick." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And if I question theories in which two and two do not make four, I suppose \nit is only because I am a mathematician.\n\nI mentioned monkeys, but I also pointed out what I consider to be the flaw \nin your five main reasons for believing in the Inire theory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Many of the episodes to which Severian seems steered towards can be\ninterpreted as for the purpose of observing\nhim in action: Dorcas at the lake, avern duel, Little Severian, Typhon,\nMiles, Leech etc. Leaving Urth then\nreturning, the action resumes with Ceryx and Zama." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the other hand, isn't something of the sort intrinsic to the structure of \n*any* novel featuring a main character? [Wolfe has even written a short \nstory 'The Last Thrilling Wonder Story' in which the main character is the \nplaything of his demigod-like Author. The True God, or at least his faith, \nsets him free.]\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T20:27:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right", "in_reply_to": "<3ABE16A40B1B495F9B91F48E2ACB322E@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 3:07 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nFrom: \"Lee Berman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Ryan Dunn- My perception of the BotNS, in my readings, leads me more down the \"we're watching you,\"\npremise, where others may not feel that is as central to the story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm with you on that Ryan. My Father Inire ideas can be rendered silly by focusing on the ephemera\nlike monkeys and hair color and ignoring the central theme which is that Severian is being watched and\nsteered. It is a common debator's trick." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And if I question theories in which two and two do not make four, I suppose it is only because I am a mathematician.\n\nI mentioned monkeys, but I also pointed out what I consider to be the flaw in your five main reasons for believing in the Inire theory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In my own defense, I vehemently represent my assertations as my own viewing of the text. It does nothing to judge or argue for or against someone else's. It does, however, acknowledge that others indeed do take a different \"world view\" of the book and how it is read.\n\nI am curious -- instead of people just rejecting a certain line of thought and then belittling that stance (not you in particular) -- what you, Gerry, might make of the presence of monkeys throughout the BotNS; not just monkey men in caves or apes in the canopy, but of the several blatant descriptions of characters and objects as monkey-like throughout BotNS, which includes, amongst others, Father Inire.\n\nLatro, for instance, has no monkey-like descriptions of humans, if I remember correctly. I find it hard to believe that they are just coincidences for how Wolfe chose to describe a character.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4784BBE24C1C4B6B979F180EDD4ADCB9@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-03T20:47:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Ryan Dunn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In my own defense, I vehemently represent my assertations as my own \nviewing of the text. It does nothing to judge or argue for or against \nsomeone else's. It does, however, acknowledge that others indeed do \ntake a different \"world view\" of the book and how it is read." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some views contradict other views." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am curious -- instead of people just rejecting a certain line of thought \nand then belittling that stance (not you in particular) -- what you, Gerry, \nmight make of the presence of monkeys throughout the BotNS; \nnot just monkey men in caves or apes in the canopy, \nbut of the several blatant descriptions of characters and objects as monkey-like\n throughout BotNS, which includes, amongst others, Father Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Latro, for instance, has no monkey-like descriptions of humans, if I \nremember correctly. I find it hard to believe that they are just coincidences \nfor how Wolfe chose to describe a character." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe it's because BotNS is set in an equatorial region, with jungles, whereas SoA is set in Europe, where there aren't any monkeys?\n\nAre you saying all these monkeys and apes are connected? Because many of them seem quite distinct.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-03T20:53:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right", "in_reply_to": "<4784BBE24C1C4B6B979F180EDD4ADCB9@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 3:47 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nMaybe it's because BotNS is set in an equatorial region, with jungles, whereas SoA is set in Europe, where there aren't any monkeys?\n \nAre you saying all these monkeys and apes are connected? Because many of them seem quite distinct." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm saying that at least four characters being described as monkeys is noteworthy in the text. Maybe you do not?\n\nAnd regarding the jungle setting, point taken.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF9A71B.70006@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-04T02:27:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/3/2010 2:53 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nOn Dec 3, 2010, at 3:47 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Maybe it's because BotNS is set in an equatorial region, with jungles,\nwhereas SoA is set in Europe, where there aren't any monkeys?\nAre you saying all these monkeys and apes are connected? Because many\nof them seem quite distinct." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm saying that at least four characters being described as monkeys is\nnoteworthy in the text. Maybe you do not?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Most of the characters are monkeylike because they are primaates, but \nsome are more monkeylike than others. It is the non-primates who still \nlook like monkeys that are significant." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-04T02:58:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right", "in_reply_to": "<4CF9A71B.70006@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you visualize the dog-ape in the lazaret and the red ape in the jungle in terms of how you would film their presence, there is no escaping the reality is that both of these creatures are very clearly watching/spying on Severian.\n\nI find that, as well, to be significant.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 9:27 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 12/3/2010 2:53 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 3:47 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Maybe it's because BotNS is set in an equatorial region, with jungles,\nwhereas SoA is set in Europe, where there aren't any monkeys?\nAre you saying all these monkeys and apes are connected? Because many\nof them seem quite distinct." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm saying that at least four characters being described as monkeys is\nnoteworthy in the text. Maybe you do not?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Most of the characters are monkeylike because they are primaates, but some are more monkeylike than others. It is the non-primates who still look like monkeys that are significant.\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF9D63D.2090605@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-04T05:48:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/3/2010 8:58 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nIf you visualize the dog-ape in the lazaret and the red ape in the jungle in terms of how you would film their presence, there is no escaping the reality is that both of these creatures are very clearly watching/spying on Severian.\n\nI find that, as well, to be significant.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I hadn't included those as characters. I suppose that is a prejusdice on \nmy part ingrained form being lambasted by my 9th grade English teacher \nfor considering the dog in \"There Will Come Soft Rains\" a character, \nsince it's an animal in a famously characterless story.\n\nI imagine the watching apes are covert aquastors, which is rather more \nsporting than making them invisible. Their lack of invisibility like \naquastor Triskele might mean they are agents of a faction with a less \nskilled operator or poorer equipment." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<50193579-E0C6-43C8-96D4-37E5C2EEA79B@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-04T05:59:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right", "in_reply_to": "<4CF9D63D.2090605@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 4, 2010, at 12:48 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 12/3/2010 8:58 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If you visualize the dog-ape in the lazaret and the red ape in the jungle in terms of how you would film their presence, there is no escaping the reality is that both of these creatures are very clearly watching/spying on Severian.\n\nI find that, as well, to be significant.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I hadn't included those as characters. I suppose that is a prejusdice on my part ingrained form being lambasted by my 9th grade English teacher for considering the dog in \"There Will Come Soft Rains\" a character, since it's an animal in a famously characterless story.\n\nI imagine the watching apes are covert aquastors, which is rather more sporting than making them invisible. Their lack of invisibility like aquastor Triskele might mean they are agents of a faction with a less skilled operator or poorer equipment." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To be aquastors, don't they have to exist in Severian's memory already, in order to become projections? Or are you saying they are some hybridization of beings Severian already has seen? Where would the ape-headed dog have come from?\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CF9E3D6.3060601@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-04T06:46:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right", "in_reply_to": "<50193579-E0C6-43C8-96D4-37E5C2EEA79B@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/3/2010 11:59 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nTo be aquastors, don't they have to exist in Severian's memory already, in order to become projections? Or are you saying they are some hybridization of beings Severian already has seen? Where would the ape-headed dog have come from?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aquastors vs Ediolons:\n\nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0017/0074.shtml\n\nObviously, if aquastor Malrubius can watch the play and aquastor \nTriskele can chase birds, someone else's aquastor ought to be able to \nsee Severian and what he is up to. But in the spirit of the recent \nwatching/following question let us ask, are there any occasions when \nSeverian sees similar simians, either actual animals or their depictions?\n\n\n(It may be worthwhile to note that in the much smaller citadel of the \n1950's A&M campus, at least one building had prominent animal skull \nrelief on the fascia.)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-04T15:19:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right", "in_reply_to": "<4CF9E3D6.3060601@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 10:46 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n(It may be worthwhile to note that in the much smaller citadel of the 1950's A&M campus, at least one building had prominent animal skull relief on the fascia.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Might you share an image link, good sir?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFA9594.7010908@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-04T19:25:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/4/2010 9:19 AM, Son of Witz wrote:\n\n\nOn Dec 3, 2010, at 10:46 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(It may be worthwhile to note that in the much smaller citadel of the 1950's A&M campus, at least one building had prominent animal skull relief on the fascia.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Might you share an image link, good sir?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm still hunting for archived images; there were not many of the older \nbldgs left when I went back a couple of years ago to document them. Back \nin my salad days of the class of 91, there were several collections of \nolder images on display at the campus, but they've moved along as well. \nOne I really want to find was about the vanished library - still there, \nbut totally concealed by subsequent additions and remodeling until it \nwas a minor part of the \"new\" library, seen here:\n\nhttp://www.panoramio.com/photo/23570465" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-05T04:47:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right", "in_reply_to": "<4CFA9594.7010908@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 4, 2010, at 11:25 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 12/4/2010 9:19 AM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 10:46 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "(It may be worthwhile to note that in the much smaller citadel of the 1950's A&M campus, at least one building had prominent animal skull relief on the fascia.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Might you share an image link, good sir?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm still hunting for archived images; there were not many of the older bldgs left when I went back a couple of years ago to document them. Back in my salad days of the class of 91, there were several collections of older images on display at the campus, but they've moved along as well. One I really want to find was about the vanished library - still there, but totally concealed by subsequent additions and remodeling until it was a minor part of the \"new\" library, seen here:\n\nhttp://www.panoramio.com/photo/23570465\n\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's neat about the library. How is A&M like a citadel? I'm totally ignorant." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFB2DDF.8040909@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-05T06:14:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/4/2010 10:47 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nOn Dec 4, 2010, at 11:25 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/4/2010 9:19 AM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 10:46 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "(It may be worthwhile to note that in the much smaller citadel of the 1950's A&M campus, at least one building had prominent animal skull relief on the fascia.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Might you share an image link, good sir?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm still hunting for archived images; there were not many of the older bldgs left when I went back a couple of years ago to document them. Back in my salad days of the class of 91, there were several collections of older images on display at the campus, but they've moved along as well. One I really want to find was about the vanished library - still there, but totally concealed by subsequent additions and remodeling until it was a minor part of the \"new\" library, seen here:\n\nhttp://www.panoramio.com/photo/23570465\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's neat about the library. How is A&M like a citadel? I'm totally ignorant." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was a military academy as well as a college, various of which have \nbeen called citadels, and it has habitually been a clump of buildings of \nvarying styles added at different times by a succession of \nadministrations and patrons, often repurposed considerably from their \noriginal form and function. I don't think there's been a itme when the \ncampus was completely walled around, so it's not like the citadel of the \nAutarch in that way, but they have ceremonial cannonades, rites and \nbeatings, symbolic sculpture and architecture, and the underground \ntunnels. I suppose the guilds could be representative of the various \ncivilian employee departments like faculty, maintenance, administration, \netc. and the latinos would have comprised the autocthons and the \nremnants of the previous empires." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<068E68B5-27BB-4D0A-8D42-CB0CAACD0483@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-05T18:14:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's Right", "in_reply_to": "<4CFB2DDF.8040909@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 4, 2010, at 10:14 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 12/4/2010 10:47 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Dec 4, 2010, at 11:25 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 12/4/2010 9:19 AM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Dec 3, 2010, at 10:46 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "(It may be worthwhile to note that in the much smaller citadel of the 1950's A&M campus, at least one building had prominent animal skull relief on the fascia.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Might you share an image link, good sir?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm still hunting for archived images; there were not many of the older bldgs left when I went back a couple of years ago to document them. Back in my salad days of the class of 91, there were several collections of older images on display at the campus, but they've moved along as well. One I really want to find was about the vanished library - still there, but totally concealed by subsequent additions and remodeling until it was a minor part of the \"new\" library, seen here:\n\nhttp://www.panoramio.com/photo/23570465\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's neat about the library. How is A&M like a citadel? I'm totally ignorant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It was a military academy as well as a college, various of which have been called citadels, and it has habitually been a clump of buildings of varying styles added at different times by a succession of administrations and patrons, often repurposed considerably from their original form and function. I don't think there's been a itme when the campus was completely walled around, so it's not like the citadel of the Autarch in that way, but they have ceremonial cannonades, rites and beatings, symbolic sculpture and architecture, and the underground tunnels. I suppose the guilds could be representative of the various civilian employee departments like faculty, maintenance, administration, etc. and the latinos would have comprised the autocthons and the remnants of the previous empires.\n\n\n-- " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting. Makes me wish I'd had ANY Involvement with traditions. The idea of learning and training in a guild is fascinating in retrospect, though I would have balked at the time I might have been able to be involved. The Art Institute I went to seemed old at 110 years, it's only seeming tradition was that at some point you had to get naked and hurt yourself in front of an audience.\n~Witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFDA2B0.8010907@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-12-07T02:57:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) dog-ape (was: Re: Who's Right)", "in_reply_to": "<4CF9D63D.2090605@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 04/12/10 05:48, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 12/3/2010 8:58 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If you visualize the dog-ape in the lazaret and the red ape in the \njungle in terms of how you would film their presence, there is no \nescaping the reality is that both of these creatures are very clearly \nwatching/spying on Severian.\n\nI find that, as well, to be significant.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I hadn't included those as characters. I suppose that is a prejusdice \non my part ingrained form being lambasted by my 9th grade English \nteacher for considering the dog in \"There Will Come Soft Rains\" a \ncharacter, since it's an animal in a famously characterless story.\n\nI imagine the watching apes are covert aquastors, which is rather more \nsporting than making them invisible. Their lack of invisibility like \naquastor Triskele might mean they are agents of a faction with a less \nskilled operator or poorer equipment." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just re-reading BoTLS and wonder now at the reason for the inclusion of \na 'dog-headed ape' in the list of creatures viewed by Silk right near \nthe start of the story when he still believes he needs to perform a \nsacrifice in order to say a proper 'thank-you' to the Outsider.\n\nThe cynocephalus isn't even close to being the creature Silk wants to \nbuy, and could have been dismissed in a few words like the sheep; but \ninstead it's described in some detail (trained to act as link-boy and \nbodyguard, this adding to its value and to its desirability, in the \nvalue-system of Viron, as a potential sacrifice) and of course there's \nthe standout feature that it is a fantasy animal in a market of mostly \nreal-world creatures.\n\n(Yes, IMO an ape with the head of a dog - ! - is a tad more fantastic \nthan a monkey that can make a few human-like vocalizations, let alone \nthan a talking night-chough.)\n\nThe last time I came across a dog-headed ape in any of these books was \nat the barracks of the Blue Dimarchi near the Sanguinary Field, as Ryan \npoints out. Severian first thinks he's delirious and seeing things, then \nrealises that this fantastical-looking creature is actually quite real. \nThe significance of this episode isn't explored at all at the time - but \nthen one meets all the various other ape-like beings in the story.\n\nWhat the heck?\n\nJD" } ] }, { "message_id": "<74BA9B51-E3F4-42D2-BE9E-88E6D08AA1B2@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-07T03:44:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) dog-ape (was: Re: Who's Right)", "in_reply_to": "<4CFDA2B0.8010907@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Might all of the ape references simply be carry over from Urth when it was Earth? Or some other Darwinian symbolism? A previous Urth Cycle. I dunno.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 6, 2010, at 9:57 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:\nThe last time I came across a dog-headed ape in any of these books was at the barracks of the Blue Dimarchi near the Sanguinary Field, as Ryan points out. Severian first thinks he's delirious and seeing things, then realises that this fantastical-looking creature is actually quite real. The significance of this episode isn't explored at all at the time - but then one meets all the various other ape-like beings in the story.\n\nWhat the heck?\n\nJD" } ] }, { "message_id": "<144085.27821.qm@smtp816.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2010-12-07T08:44:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) dog-ape (was: Re: Who's Right)", "in_reply_to": "<4CFDA2B0.8010907@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 02:57 07/12/2010, Jane wrote:\nThe cynocephalus isn't even close to being the creature Silk wants \nto buy, and could have been dismissed in a few words like the sheep; \nbut instead it's described in some detail (trained to act as \nlink-boy and bodyguard, this adding to its value and to its \ndesirability, in the value-system of Viron, as a potential \nsacrifice) and of course there's the standout feature that it is a \nfantasy animal in a market of mostly real-world creatures.\n\n(Yes, IMO an ape with the head of a dog - ! - is a tad more \nfantastic than a monkey that can make a few human-like \nvocalizations, let alone than a talking night-chough.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I assumed this dog-headed ape was just an ordinary baboon (albeit \nrather well trained), as they're generally referred to by Classical \nauthors as cynocephalid:\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Baboon\n\nThat seems more likely to me than it being an out-of-place fantasy animal,\n\nMo\n\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-07T15:18:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) dog-ape", "in_reply_to": "<144085.27821.qm@smtp816.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jane Delawney wrote:\n(Yes, IMO an ape with the head of a dog - ! - is a tad more fantastic\nthan a monkey that can make a few human-like vocalizations, let alone\nthan a talking night-chough.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It isn't just that it can make human vocalisations; it clearly means\nwhat it says (as does Oreb). Both seem to have an intelligence which\nis sub-human but very real. There are a couple of Oreb's-eye-view\npassages which bear this out. (Severian says at some point that some\nanimals have learnt a few words, so this is in keeping with the future\nsetting. There are also the writing rats.)\n\nI'm not sure if the dog-headed ape is just a baboon, as Mo Holkar\nsuggests, or a strange hybrid; but given the human-animal hybrids of\nSeverian's time, it's not too surprising that there were would also be\nanimal-animal hybrids." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-07T16:03:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) dog-ape", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason: It isn't just that it can make human vocalisations; it clearly means what it says \n(as does Oreb). Both seem to have an intelligence which is sub-human but very real. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI don't remember the cynocephalus making any noise. It just seems to look in on Severian then\nleave. There are revelations about Oreb at the end of RttWhorl which do involve the limits on\nits intelligence, I think" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian says at some point that some animals have learnt a few words, so this is in keeping with \nthe future setting. There are also the writing rats.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes. Now I sorta like the legendary wolf family who adopt Frog. They can talk a lot and are able to \ncarry swords." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure if the dog-headed ape is just a baboon, as Mo Holkar suggests, or a strange hybrid; but \ngiven the human-animal hybrids of Severian's time, it's not too surprising that there were would also be\nanimal-animal hybrids." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWell, the thing is that Papio cynocephalus is the name for a species of baboon. If we were told there is\na tiger shark in BotNS we wouldn't need to assume there is species hybridization going on. \n \nThere are the human-animal hybrids you mention (created by Father Inire). But they serve a particular function \nsuited to their hybridization- like dog-men set to guard the gold wagon at Orithya. I don't see how a dog-ape \nis specially suited for hospital work.\n \nI think the creature is there to do what we see it do- look in on Severian. It was at a crucial juncture in his\nlife. The Claw/Severian did its first acknowledged public miraculous work. It freaked out Dorcas. Freaked out\nAgilus even more. Resurrection from an avern wound is worth looking in upon a guy. Especially if one has \n\"a presentiment of his future\". \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }