Father Inire Theory

Andrew Mason: I'm a bit at a loss here because I've come in at the end of an argument. Can you tell me briefly what the Inire theory is? It seems to me obvious that Inire is keeping an eye on Severian and guiding him.

On 12/4/2010 3:46 AM, Lee Berman wrote: But the main point of objection for Boatman=Inire is that Boatman is eventually revealed to be Dorcas' husband. How could an alien mate with a human? And why? Also, the problem is that Severian is Dorcas' grandson so this implies that Severian is part alien. HOw could that be?

Jeff Wilson: I think the main point of objection is that the Boatman visibly dies ten years before the Book mentions Inire is still around.

On Dec 4, 2010, at 1:55 AM, Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com> wrote: On 12/4/2010 3:46 AM, Lee Berman wrote:

But the main point of objection for Boatman=Inire is that Boatman is eventually revealed to be Dorcas' husband. How could an alien mate with a human? And why? Also, the problem is that Severian is Dorcas' grandson so this implies that Severian is part alien. HOw could that be?

I think the main point of objection is that the Boatman visibly dies ten years before the Book mentions Inire is still around. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >

On Dec 4, 2010, at 10:22 AM, Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote: On Dec 4, 2010, at 1:55 AM, Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com> wrote:

On 12/4/2010 3:46 AM, Lee Berman wrote:

But the main point of objection for Boatman=Inire is that Boatman is eventually revealed to be Dorcas' husband. How could an alien mate with a human? And why? Also, the problem is that Severian is Dorcas' grandson so this implies that Severian is part alien. HOw could that be?

I think the main point of objection is that the Boatman visibly dies ten years before the Book mentions Inire is still around.

Son of Witz wrote: On Dec 4, 2010, at 1:55 AM, Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com <mailto:jwilson at io.com>> wrote:

I think the main point of objection is that the Boatman visibly dies ten years before the Book mentions Inire is still around.

Wait a sec. I JUST finished NewSun again and I can not remember the old boatman in any other scenes besides the near drowning at the beginning and when we meet him on the Lake of Birds. When do we see him again?

M. ben Witz: Wait a sec. I JUST finished NewSun again and I can not remember the old boatman in any other scenes besides the near drowning at the beginning and when we meet him on the Lake of Birds.

Ryan Dunn-He is Father Inire and yet not, to my knowledge, a priest. Anyone for Inire as Increate?

On Dec 4, 2010, at 12:25 PM, Lee Berman wrote: M. ben Witz: Wait a sec. I JUST finished NewSun again and I can not remember the old boatman in any other scenes besides the near drowning at the beginning and when we meet him on the Lake of Birds.

That's an interest post to me Witz. Most do not think the boatman at the drowning is the Boatman at the Lake of Birds. I think Borski suggests that the "drowning" old boatman is Maxellindis' "Uncle", who is also a boatman, because they both speak of undines. Actually all three of these boatmen speak of undines. I wrote it as Maxellindis' "Uncle" because Severian suspects it isn't really her uncle. Thus we have at least two of the boatmen showing a creepy fascination for pubescent young women (some calculate Dorcas' age at 13-14 for her first birth). So maybe add "creepy poppet fascination" to "monkeys", "old and bent" and "obscured eyes" as marks of a shapeshifter.

I tried to peruse the text for more possible appearances of Inire and most of those I found have been mentioned by others in the previous thread. The one that hasn't been mentioned is the one that has caused the most objection to my version of the theory in the past: The Boatman. He is a small, bent old man though with no monkey features or obscured eyes mentioned. I find the fact that he hangs out in the Botanic Garden and discusses Father Inire's appearance (same as his own) and actions to be clues that he is a possible version of Inire, though others disagree.

On Dec 4, 2010, at 9:25 AM, Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote:

M. ben Witz: Wait a sec. I JUST finished NewSun again and I can not remember the old boatman in any other scenes besides the near drowning at the beginning and when we meet him on the Lake of Birds.

That's an interest post to me Witz. Most do not think the boatman at the drowning is the Boatman at the Lake of Birds. I think Borski suggests that the "drowning" old boatman is Maxellindis' "Uncle", who is also a boatman, because they both speak of undines. Actually all three of these boatmen speak of undines. I wrote it as Maxellindis' "Uncle" because Severian suspects it isn't really her uncle. Thus we have at least two of the boatmen showing a creepy fascination for pubescent young women (some calculate Dorcas' age at 13-14 for her first birth). So maybe add "creepy poppet fascination" to "monkeys", "old and bent" and "obscured eyes" as marks of a shapeshifter. Anyway, at the end of CotA, Severian gets off the Samru and takes a jaunt through the crumbled ruins of old Nessus. He finds Dorcas, apparently in silent grief at the bier of the old boatman from the Lake of Birds. So we don't actually see him die but he is, in appearance, dead.

Ryan Dunn-He is Father Inire and yet not, to my knowledge, a priest. Anyone for Inire as Increate?

Heh! Actually my theory addresses the issue of "Father" Inire in two ways: 1. Inire can be paired with The Cumaean in a number of diffent ways (her abode, their alien nature, etc) She is also called The Mother. So perhaps the pairing is related to Inire's appelation of Father. 2. I see flimsy evidence (which only makes sense added together) that Inire, using his longevity, has managed to get busy with a number of women in Severian's family tree when they were young girls. This included Dorcas (as Fechin), Cyriaca (as her cosmicly knowledgable "uncle"), and Agia (as Hethor). Perhaps Inire (which can be Latin for "sexual penetration") gets his title of Father by siring a few members of Severian's family. _______________________________________________

On Dec 4, 2010, at 2:40 PM, Son of Witz wrote: On Dec 4, 2010, at 9:25 AM, Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote:

M. ben Witz: Wait a sec. I JUST finished NewSun again and I can not remember the old boatman in any other scenes besides the near drowning at the beginning and when we meet him on the Lake of Birds.

That's an interest post to me Witz. Most do not think the boatman at the drowning is the Boatman at the Lake of Birds. I think Borski suggests that the "drowning" old boatman is Maxellindis' "Uncle", who is also a boatman, because they both speak of undines. Actually all three of these boatmen speak of undines. I wrote it as Maxellindis' "Uncle" because Severian suspects it isn't really her uncle. Thus we have at least two of the boatmen showing a creepy fascination for pubescent young women (some calculate Dorcas' age at 13-14 for her first birth). So maybe add "creepy poppet fascination" to "monkeys", "old and bent" and "obscured eyes" as marks of a shapeshifter. Anyway, at the end of CotA, Severian gets off the Samru and takes a jaunt through the crumbled ruins of old Nessus. He finds Dorcas, apparently in silent grief at the bier of the old boatman from the Lake of Birds. So we don't actually see him die but he is, in appearance, dead.

Thank you. I forgot this one line reappearance.

Ryan Dunn-He is Father Inire and yet not, to my knowledge, a priest. Anyone for Inire as Increate?

Heh! Actually my theory addresses the issue of "Father" Inire in two ways: 1. Inire can be paired with The Cumaean in a number of diffent ways (her abode, their alien nature, etc) She is also called The Mother. So perhaps the pairing is related to Inire's appelation of Father. 2. I see flimsy evidence (which only makes sense added together) that Inire, using his longevity, has managed to get busy with a number of women in Severian's family tree when they were young girls. This included Dorcas (as Fechin), Cyriaca (as her cosmicly knowledgable "uncle"), and Agia (as Hethor). Perhaps Inire (which can be Latin for "sexual penetration") gets his title of Father by siring a few members of Severian's family. _______________________________________________

On Dec 4, 2010, at 9:48 AM, Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com> wrote: On Dec 4, 2010, at 12:25 PM, Lee Berman wrote:

M. ben Witz: Wait a sec. I JUST finished NewSun again and I can not remember the old boatman in any other scenes besides the near drowning at the beginning and when we meet him on the Lake of Birds.

That's an interest post to me Witz. Most do not think the boatman at the drowning is the Boatman at the Lake of Birds. I think Borski suggests that the "drowning" old boatman is Maxellindis' "Uncle", who is also a boatman, because they both speak of undines. Actually all three of these boatmen speak of undines. I wrote it as Maxellindis' "Uncle" because Severian suspects it isn't really her uncle. Thus we have at least two of the boatmen showing a creepy fascination for pubescent young women (some calculate Dorcas' age at 13-14 for her first birth). So maybe add "creepy poppet fascination" to "monkeys", "old and bent" and "obscured eyes" as marks of a shapeshifter.

To me, the simple clue of a random old man asking whether a man underwater was sure he didn't see a woman under there, would suggest the Boatman. Doesn't Gyoll flow into the Garden of Endless Sleep, anyway?

I don't recall the boatman at Gyoll asking after undines, just whether Severian was sure he didn't see a woman. And regarding the boatman at the Botanic having a fascination for young girls, why couldn't the boatman have been of a similar age when she died? I thought the point of the boatman was to demonstrate just how long Dorcas had been submerged. Am I missing something? ...ryan _______________________________________________

On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 1:21 PM, Andrew Mason <andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com>wrote:

Thanks for this, Lee. Let me see what I can make of it. Is Inire a shape-shifter? I'm inclined to say not, because in the scenes where it's most generally agreed we see him, he's masked or hooded - and as Jeff Wilson pointed out, this means he can actually 'disguise' himself by revealing his face - also in one case he is naked, which is another form of disguise. In addition, Severian refers to his life being prolonged beyond the short life-span of his race, which suggests he belongs to the same species as Barbatus and Famulimus, who, again, are masked. But all these disguises would not be needed if they could change shape. (Of course, we are told that he - if he is the jungle shaman - can change into a tiger. But this seems rather unhelpful; Severian never meets a tiger.) Human/alien breeding. The most relevant passage here is from Urth where Gunnie is talking about the jibers; she says sometimes people from two different origins pair up and have children, but the children themselves are normally not fertile. It's not clear, though, if she means people of completely different origins, or people of human descent on different planets, who have evolved away from one another, as we know happens. (Though if such a person came to Urth, might they still be called a cacogen?) This leaves me rather doubtful about whether Inire can be anyone's grandfather. (Sex between humans and aliens is certainly possible, witness Apheta, as Ryan Dunn points out; the question is about offspring. I know Severian and Apheta have offspring of a sort; but not biologically.) (If Inire's species can breed with humans, though, might the other monkey-like people be his children?) Thematically; might Severian's having alien descent spoil his status as the epitome of Urth? Or should we see cacogens as now part of the community of Urth - or perhaps Inire as having, by choice, become part of it? I have an idea that we are meant to see Severian as descended from people who represent all the classes of the Commonwealth - Dorcas is an optimate, her husband is commonalty, Catherine was religious by vocation, and either exultant or armiger by birth, or perhaps a mixture of the two (that Severian has some exultant blood is suggested by the fact that several people mistake him for one). We just have to get a servant of the throne in somewhere, or perhaps Severian can represent them himself. Might there also be a cacogen? It would be appropriate in some ways, not in others. (I'm not suggesting people believe this just because it's thematically appropriate. I'd like some clues as to who his exultant and armiger forebears were. But given the way Wolfe writes, it's quite possible there are such clues, waiting to be discovered.)

I tried to peruse the text for more possible appearances of Inire and most of those I found have been mentioned by others in the previous thread. The one that hasn't been mentioned is the one that has caused the most objection to my version of the theory in the past: The Boatman. He is a small, bent old man though with no monkey features or obscured eyes mentioned. I find the fact that he hangs out in the Botanic Garden and discusses Father Inire's appearance (same as his own) and actions to be clues that he is a possible version of Inire, though others disagree.

I don't find that persuasive - that he reports having seen Father Inire strikes me as evidence that he is not the same person. But I realise that 'I don't find that persuasive' is, itself, not persuasive, so here are a couple of more substantial points. First, how significant is it that the boatman now looks something like Inire, if, as I take it, he has not always done so? Did he look like that when he lived with Dorcas? And second, Severian sees a piece of paper with the boatman's name on it - the chart giving details of Dorcas's burial - but, he claims, doesn't take it in. I'm fairly sure this name is meant to be significant in some way. Presuably it isn't 'Inire'. But if it's an assumed name, why create the air of mystery about it? _______________________________________________

On 12/4/2010 11:25 AM, Lee Berman wrote:

M. ben Witz: Wait a sec. I JUST finished NewSun again and I can not remember the old boatman in any other scenes besides the near drowning at the beginning and when we meet him on the Lake of Birds.

That's an interest post to me Witz. Most do not think the boatman at the drowning is the Boatman at the Lake of Birds. I think Borski suggests that the "drowning" old boatman is Maxellindis' "Uncle", who is also a boatman, because they both speak of undines. Actually all three of these boatmen speak of undines. I wrote it as Maxellindis' "Uncle" because Severian suspects it isn't really her uncle.

Jeff Wilson: Maxellindis' uncle was under constant observation by Eata for four or five years on their boat before he died, also during the time when Inire was actively serving Autarch Severian.

On Dec 4, 2010, at 11:40 PM, Lee Berman wrote: Someone (I forget who) brought up an objection that I forgot to address. The objection was that we can't compare the shapeshifting and multiple body versions of Tzadkiel with Father Inire because they are two completely different sorts of beings. Using what I've been calling the gnostic religious view I think it can be demonstrated that the opposite is true. As Greece went from primitive to civilized we see a a replacement and demotion of old pantheons of gods for new. Major vine god Dionysus gets demoted to minor wine god among the Olympians, but he's still around and not a bad guy. But when the Greeks expanded their conquest outward, and more foreign cultures were conquered a different thing happened to the gods. A process of demonizing the foreign gods and angelicizing one's own gods started to take place. The fortunes of war could change the status of any given god back and forth. So, angels, demons and pagan gods are all immortal, shapeshifting types but are labeled based on whether they are perceived as being good, bad or has-beens. The goat god Dionysus/Pan might be elevated to the highest deification by some groups, demonized into Azazel or Satan by others and dismissed as mythology by yet others. In BotNS, I think we have the analog or allegory for pagan gods (Inire, Cumaean), demons (Abaia, Erebus) and angels at a couple levels (hierogrammates, hierodules). Given that this is a pre-Christian, gnostic world/universe, I think we can understand that these beings are essentially of a similar kind and have similar power and abilities. As Wolfe has Horn suggest in a religious opine from Short Sun, the only difference between a minor god and a major devil is good intentions. _______________________________________________

On Dec 4, 2010, at 3:47 AM, Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote: I can appreciate the tendency toward peer-reviewing ideas about this story as though it were science with the need for vigorous gatekeeping. But my preferred approach is to view the process as art/literature appreciation and its encouragement of creative thinking.

On 12/4/2010 10:07 PM, Lee Berman wrote:

Jeff Wilson: Maxellindis' uncle was under constant observation by Eata for four or five years on their boat before he died, also during the time when Inire was actively serving Autarch Severian.

We could thus disqualify Maxellindis' uncle from consideration as a version of Inire. Or it could be a push toward option 2: The multiple versions of Inire are independently operating copies of a larger god-like being. I've been leaning toward #2 for a while.

On Dec 5, 2010, at 12:38 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote: On 12/4/2010 10:07 PM, Lee Berman wrote:

Jeff Wilson: Maxellindis' uncle was under constant observation by Eata for four or five years on their boat before he died, also during the time when Inire was actively serving Autarch Severian.

We could thus disqualify Maxellindis' uncle from consideration as a version of Inire. Or it could be a push toward option 2: The multiple versions of Inire are independently operating copies of a larger god-like being. I've been leaning toward #2 for a while.

That would suggest that Severian and Dux Caesidius and Ouen are shape-shifting godlets, as they resemble each other in just as many respects. Agia and Agilus are even more alike, surely they are as well? The Path of Air woman, Catherine, and the woman stolen from the necropolis are likewise suspiciously similar. The village sorcerers are practically all alike other than their names, and then there are the ape men at the mine who don't even have names to set them apart. Are they all carbon copy gods as well?

On 12/4/2010 11:38 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote: On 12/4/2010 10:07 PM, Lee Berman wrote:

Jeff Wilson: Maxellindis' uncle was under constant observation by Eata for four or five years on their boat before he died, also during the time when Inire was actively serving Autarch Severian.

We could thus disqualify Maxellindis' uncle from consideration as a version of Inire. Or it could be a push toward option 2: The multiple versions of Inire are independently operating copies of a larger god-like being. I've been leaning toward #2 for a while.

That would suggest that Severian and Dux Caesidius and Ouen are shape-shifting godlets, as they resemble each other in just as many respects. Agia and Agilus are even more alike, surely they are as well? The Path of Air woman, Catherine, and the woman stolen from the necropolis are likewise suspiciously similar. The village sorcerers are practically all alike other than their names, and then there are the ape men at the mine who don't even have names to set them apart. Are they all carbon copy gods as well?

On 12/4/2010 11:42 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote: On Dec 5, 2010, at 12:38 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:

On 12/4/2010 10:07 PM, Lee Berman wrote:

Jeff Wilson: Maxellindis' uncle was under constant observation by Eata for four or five years on their boat before he died, also during the time when Inire was actively serving Autarch Severian.

We could thus disqualify Maxellindis' uncle from consideration as a version of Inire. Or it could be a push toward option 2: The multiple versions of Inire are independently operating copies of a larger god-like being. I've been leaning toward #2 for a while.

That would suggest that Severian and Dux Caesidius and Ouen are shape-shifting godlets, as they resemble each other in just as many respects. Agia and Agilus are even more alike, surely they are as well? The Path of Air woman, Catherine, and the woman stolen from the necropolis are likewise suspiciously similar. The village sorcerers are practically all alike other than their names, and then there are the ape men at the mine who don't even have names to set them apart. Are they all carbon copy gods as well?

To paraphrase with less snarkiness... Jeff Wilson does not believe Father Inire to be a shapeshifter.

Jeff Wilson: That would suggest that Severian and Dux Caesidius and Ouen are shape-shifting godlets, as they resemble each other in just as many respects. Agia and Agilus are even more alike, surely they are as well?

Jeff Wilson: Inire and the Cumaean are manufactured creatures or at least of manufactured race, like the rest of the Yesodis. They have no need to split and change shape because they are made to order for their specific tasks handed down by the likes of Tzadkiel. They become bent with age as they struggle to exceed their parameters, but that's it.

On 12/5/2010 7:55 AM, Lee Berman wrote: Jeff Wilson- That would suggest that Severian and Dux Caesidius and Ouen are shape-shifting godlets, as they resemble each other in just as many respects. Agia and Agilus are even more alike, surely they are as well?

From: "Lee Berman" <severiansola at hotmail.com> I'm not sure if this is an expression of personal interest and request for an elaboration of my Father Inire theory or an attempt at invalidating it via reductio ad absurdum. If the latter I will suggest, as before, that it is a waste of time. Like shooting fish in a barrel. It is my opinion that the superficial mysteries of BotNS which can be solved by careful reading, logic and a little research are solved. The mysteries which remain, if any do, require a large dose of intuition. And intuition is highly individualized. Someone else's imagination is easy to dismiss as ridiculous. I'm not sure if there is any way to know if the intuitive theories which are now being proprosed are entirely the product of the imagination of the theorist or if that imagination happens to match the imagination of Gene Wolfe as he was writing BotNs.

Lee Berman wrote: Jeff Wilson: Maxellindis' uncle was under constant observation by Eata for four or five years on their boat before he died, also during the time when Inire was actively serving Autarch Severian.

We could thus disqualify Maxellindis' uncle from consideration as a version of Inire. Or it could be a push toward option 2: The multiple versions of Inire are independently operating copies of a larger god-like being. I've been leaning toward #2 for a while.

The process is after the pattern we see in Abaia with his multiple agent undines like Juturna and Idas I think we see the process starting with Great Scylla at the end of RttW with the army of black-cloaked clones growing up from her back. We get the clearest view of it with Tzadkiel shapeshifting into to animals and humans and angels of various sizes and genders. But whether it be furry beast, hairy troglodyte, Adonis-human, male or female angel, somehow Severian, like the youngest suitor in Foila's story, can always identify the shape-shifter. Now (I ask myself) if Severian can identify Tzadkiel in all those various guises, why can't he identify Inire in all his forms? The answer is truly central and key to my GUT theory. The answer being that Severian can probably identify Father Inire in all his versions. So why doesn't he tell us? The answer is: For the same reason Agilus will not openly tell Severian about his incestuous relationship with his sister. For the same reason Severian will not openly tell us that he knows Dorcas, his lover, is his grandmother. Severian knows Father Inire's shameful place in his family and, as an unreliable narrator, is certainly not going to tell us about it. Not in so many words, anyway. I think Wolfe writes BotNS about Severian in first person so that we might know what it would be like to be a contemporary school chum of a greek hero like Heracles. To be friends with him and really know the guy. But what would Heracles say if you asked him, "Hey Herk, why is your twin brother so different from you; why are you are so big and strong and he is not?" I suggest that in that situation, Heracles would hem and haw and dissemble and lie or do whatever it took to avoid telling you, "Look, Zeus disguised himself as my father and raped my mother, then my father had sex with her the same night, so she got pregnant with us as twins but we have different fathers". Its just embarassing and the family's dirty linen isn't something you air out among friends. Actually I detect a number of really shameful things going on with Severian that he indirectly reveals in his narrative without openly revealing them. ?I guess it might be based on a personal conceit but I think I know how liars talk when they are lying. And so does Gene Wolfe. He has Severian, and Agilus and the Old Leech and Rudesind and others lie to us throughout the text. Eventually you can pick up the pattern. ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 20:22:56 -0800 From: Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net> Subject: (urth) Monty Python's New Sun Message-ID: <2E20E67A-6663-477A-84C6-860E45AF9FE2 at butcherbaker.org> Content-Type: text/plain; ? ? ? charset=us-ascii I'm doing dishes, laughing my ass off imagining a Monty Python version of Book of The New Sun. I can't write the jokes, but I can SEE it! And now for something completely different. Sorry. ~witz ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 23:40:01 -0500 From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com> To: <urth at lists.urth.net> Subject: (urth) Father Inire Theory Message-ID: <SNT123-W34E93F8438E6DB822337A0CF2A0 at phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Someone (I forget who) brought up an objection that I forgot to address. The objection was that we can't compare the shapeshifting and multiple body versions of Tzadkiel with Father Inire because they are two completely different sorts of beings. Using what I've been calling the gnostic religious view I think it can be demonstrated that the opposite is true. As Greece went from primitive to civilized we see a a replacement and demotion of old pantheons of gods for new. Major vine god Dionysus gets demoted to minor wine god among the Olympians, but he's still around and not a bad guy. But when the Greeks expanded their conquest outward, and more foreign cultures were conquered a different thing happened to the gods. ?A process of demonizing the foreign gods and angelicizing one's own gods started to take place. The fortunes of war could change the status of any given god back and forth. So, angels, demons and pagan gods are all immortal, shapeshifting types but are labeled based on whether they are perceived as being good, bad or has-beens. The goat god Dionysus/Pan might be elevated to the highest deification by some groups, demonized into Azazel or Satan by others and dismissed as mythology by yet others. In BotNS, I think we have the analog or allegory for pagan gods (Inire, Cumaean), demons (Abaia, Erebus) and angels at a couple levels (hierogrammates, hierodules). Given that this is a pre-Christian, gnostic world/universe, I think we can understand that these beings are essentially of a similar kind and have similar power and abilities. As Wolfe has Horn suggest in a religious opine from Short Sun, the only difference between a minor god and a major devil is good intentions. ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 23:43:26 -0500 From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net> Subject: Re: (urth) Father Inire Theory Message-ID: <B90D8011-FBEC-47D9-B398-7F786575160C at liftingfaces.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii But I do think we should use Zak in UotNS as a clue pointing back to the original four volumes. Meaning there's a shapeshifter we should have known about. That's my two cents on the matter anyhow. I do believe most of of the major messages from UotNS Gene expected we could deduce from the source text. I think it was a little bit of a clue book also, though I haven't studied it deep enough to be certain. ...ryan On Dec 4, 2010, at 11:40 PM, Lee Berman wrote:

Someone (I forget who) brought up an objection that I forgot to address. The objection was that we can't compare the shapeshifting and multiple body versions of Tzadkiel with Father Inire because they are two completely different sorts of beings. Using what I've been calling the gnostic religious view I think it can be demonstrated that the opposite is true. As Greece went from primitive to civilized we see a a replacement and demotion of old pantheons of gods for new. Major vine god Dionysus gets demoted to minor wine god among the Olympians, but he's still around and not a bad guy. But when the Greeks expanded their conquest outward, and more foreign cultures were conquered a different thing happened to the gods. ?A process of demonizing the foreign gods and angelicizing one's own gods started to take place. The fortunes of war could change the status of any given god back and forth. So, angels, demons and pagan gods are all immortal, shapeshifting types but are labeled based on whether they are perceived as being good, bad or has-beens. The goat god Dionysus/Pan might be elevated to the highest deification by some groups, demonized into Azazel or Satan by others and dismissed as mythology by yet others. In BotNS, I think we have the analog or allegory for pagan gods (Inire, Cumaean), demons (Abaia, Erebus) and angels at a couple levels (hierogrammates, hierodules). Given that this is a pre-Christian, gnostic world/universe, I think we can understand that these beings are essentially of a similar kind and have similar power and abilities. As Wolfe has Horn suggest in a religious opine from Short Sun, the only difference between a minor god and a major devil is good intentions. _______________________________________________

On 12/5/2010 7:55 AM, Lee Berman wrote:

Jeff Wilson: That would suggest that Severian and Dux Caesidius and Ouen are shape-shifting godlets, as they resemble each other in just as many respects. Agia and Agilus are even more alike, surely they are as well?

I'm not sure if this is an expression of personal interest and request for an elaboration of my Father Inire theory or an attempt at invalidating it via reductio ad absurdum. If the latter I will suggest, as before, that it is a waste of time. Like shooting fish in a barrel. It is my opinion that the superficial mysteries of BotNS which can be solved by careful reading, logic and a little research are solved. The mysteries which remain, if any do, require a large dose of intuition.

For this reason, I've been steering my Inire Theory away from (St.) Rudesind. Perhaps his old, bent, monkey-like appearance is due to the nature of his assistantship and association with Father Inire and an admonition to trust in the power of names and not be deceived by appearances. I don't know. Theory is still a work in progress.

On the other hand there is no St. Hethor. And his space origin, mirror skills and interest in young human women make me suspicious. If he was really Inire, would he be trying to kill his own grandson? I think perhaps he would if he knew Severian couldn't be killed but had a secret power he hoped to explore/exploit.

Jeff Wilson: Inire and the Cumaean are manufactured creatures or at least of manufactured race, like the rest of the Yesodis. They have no need to split and change shape because they are made to order for their specific tasks handed down by the likes of Tzadkiel. They become bent with age as they struggle to exceed their parameters, but that's it.

B and F remain pure and above humanity. Inire and the Cumaean have gone native, and have gotten involved in a variety of evil activities such as running wars, establishing an autarchy surrounded by beautiful young concubines, witchcraft, beautification, necromancy and eating of the dead. Not a coincidence they are gone as Urth is gone.

On 12/5/2010 8:48 AM, James Wynn wrote: On 12/5/2010 7:55 AM, Lee Berman wrote:

Jeff Wilson- That would suggest that Severian and Dux Caesidius and Ouen are shape-shifting godlets, as they resemble each other in just as many respects. Agia and Agilus are even more alike, surely they are as well?

So do you posit that the monkeys are Inire's children, or that Inire and Fetchin are twins?

On Dec 5, 2010, at 5:55 AM, Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote: Jeff Wilson: Inire and the Cumaean are manufactured creatures or at least of manufactured race, like the rest of the Yesodis. They have no need to split and change shape because they are made to order for their specific tasks handed down by the likes of Tzadkiel. They become bent with age as they struggle to exceed their parameters, but that's it.

aaron: I actually wrote to Wolfe about Inire a few months back and his reply was, of course, enigmatic, but also interesting. I'll post it later--it may be of interest to those here.

Andrew Mason- But the claim that the Hierodules are manufactured for a purpose is not just a perspective; it's what it says in the text.

But we are told, quite clearly, that the Hierodules were made for a purpose. They are a very different kind of being from the Hierogrammates.

I am worried about your approach because it seems terribly human-centric. All beings that are rational and non-human are classed together as gods; there's us, and there's all the others. But I don't think that's Wolfe's perspective; for him there are all sorts of different kinds of being, and humans are just one of them.

But I don't think you can make any assumptions about his powers just on the basis of his [Inire] being an alien.

But does this [Maxellindis' Uncle=Inire] not undermine the idea of Inire keeping a constant watch on Severian?

Gerry Quinn- There is a way to know, or at least to make some determination of likelihood. That is to examine the ways in which these theories are supported or contradicted by the text.

Intuition is not an ability unique to certain inspired readers. Those readers who developed the theories you disdain as "superficial" used their intuition too, but they also attended to the text as a whole.

The point Jeff is making is that anyone with an imagination can come up with a million arbitrary theories, but they are only meaningful once they find support in the text.

But if one takes this view, then all readings are equally valid, and no reading - however absurd - is worth any more than another.

Jeff Wilson- One can certainly use intuition as a means of selecting possible answers, but the answer must still logically fit the puzzle given for the exercise to be meaningful.

On 12/5/2010 8:59 PM, Lee Berman wrote: The rise and fall of Alexander's empire established the 300 year gnostic stage upon which Christianity arose. The rise and fall of Typhon's empire established the 1000 year stage upon which Severian's ascension was built. Perhaps others are not but I feel enlightened and enriched in my understanding of BotNS by this connection. And having respect for a fellow Wolfe lover allowed me to attain this enlightenment. Thanks James!

Jeff Wilson: It is very Wolfean for Typhon to be patterned after Alexander. But saying that a similar likeness of Tzadkiel and Inire to Alexadner's gods makes it believable that Inirie is his own legion of shape shifters who are never seen to change shape is as useful as saying it is believable that Wolfe implies that Alexander was also a space tyrant, just one that was never seen to employ spaceships.

On 12/5/2010 9:59 PM, Lee Berman wrote: But James seems like a very intelligent, well-read guy who is passionate about the work of Gene Wolfe. So I wasn't just going to just dismiss his theory. Maybe he is seeing something in the jigsaw that I was not yet able to see. In continuing discussions, the name of Alexander (the Great) was brought up as a model for Typhon. Bells and lights went off for me, knowing the story of Alexander, his mother Olympia, his tutor Aristotle, his father King Phillip, his conquests and his final years of tyranny and debauchery before his premature death. There it is- Spring Wind + Typhon almost to a T. The rise and fall of Alexander's empire established the 300 year gnostic stage upon which Christianity arose. The rise and fall of Typhon's empire established the 1000 year stage upon which Severian's ascension was built. Perhaps others are not but I feel enlightened and enriched in my understanding of BotNS by this connection. And having respect for a fellow Wolfe lover allowed me to attain this enlightenment. Thanks James!

I missed this comment of James'. Yes, Typhon was definitely Alexander-like in his rapid conquests, whatever they were. That's a great point. And further, Alexander presents an excellent example of an emperor being treated like a god after his death (horns and all). His example led to all sorts of contortions for some Christians, too, because they felt they had to acknowledge or somehow deal with his pre-Christian godliness. And he is the first God Emperor of Dune, too.

On Dec 6, 2010, at 6:01 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com> wrote: David Stockhoff wrote (06-12-2010 13:31):

I missed this comment of James'. Yes, Typhon was definitely Alexander-like in his rapid conquests, whatever they were. That's a great point. And further, Alexander presents an excellent example of an emperor being treated like a god after his death (horns and all). His example led to all sorts of contortions for some Christians, too, because they felt they had to acknowledge or somehow deal with his pre-Christian godliness. And he is the first God Emperor of Dune, too.

I had never noticed it before, but all this time I've been picturing Typhon with the exact same appearance I picture Alexander, curly blond and all (I don't even picture Typhon with two heads). _______________________________________________

Son o'Witz- One myth I think about A LOT, in general, and in connection with BotNS, is the "Ancient Aliens shaped humanity" idea.

On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 10:21 AM, Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote:

Son o'Witz- One myth I think about A LOT, in general, and in connection with BotNS, is the "Ancient Aliens shaped humanity" idea.

Yeah, such ideas were all the rage in the early 70's, just before BotNS was being written. I think Von Daniken's Chariots of the Gods was the peak of it. I've always thought it might have been an influence on Wolfe. Anyone remember "pyramid power". Heh, I can remember another kid's 7th grade science project, using a cardboard pyramid precisely aligned with coriolis force or star patterns trying to mummify a lump of raw ground beef. Ugh. _______________________________________________

On 12/6/2010 11:39 AM, Son of Witz wrote: Until you said it, I hadn't realized that my vision of Typhon was Alexander. I drew him the other day and was compelled to put a laurel wreath on his head, which is totally inappropriate, but it came out that way. Blonde hair and all.

On Dec 6, 2010, at 10:49 AM, Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com> wrote: On 12/6/2010 11:39 AM, Son of Witz wrote:

Until you said it, I hadn't realized that my vision of Typhon was Alexander. I drew him the other day and was compelled to put a laurel wreath on his head, which is totally inappropriate, but it came out that way. Blonde hair and all.

I suppose this means dark-haired Piaton would be drawn with a grey forelock? -- Jeff

Jeff Wilson- I suppose this means dark-haired Piaton would be drawn with a grey forelock?

Son o' Witz- I'm too dense to get it...

On Dec 6, 2010, at 11:06 AM, Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote:

Jeff Wilson- I suppose this means dark-haired Piaton would be drawn with a grey forelock?

My thoughts went in the same direction as Jeff's. Typhon does refer to Piaton as his "steed".

Son o' Witz- I'm too dense to get it...

Nah, Jeff was being deliberately cryptic. It is a reference to Alexander's beloved horse, Bucephalus. _______________________________________________

On 12/6/2010 12:58 PM, Son of Witz wrote: On Dec 6, 2010, at 10:49 AM, Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com <mailto:jwilson at io.com>> wrote:

On 12/6/2010 11:39 AM, Son of Witz wrote:

Until you said it, I hadn't realized that my vision of Typhon was Alexander. I drew him the other day and was compelled to put a laurel wreath on his head, which is totally inappropriate, but it came out that way. Blonde hair and all.

I suppose this means dark-haired Piaton would be drawn with a grey forelock? -- Jeff

I'm too dense to get it...

On Dec 6, 2010, at 10:40 AM, Stuart Hamm <hammstu at sbcglobal.net> wrote: Love me some Ancient Aliens I do...anyone else read the new William Gibson? I love his writing and eye for detail and trends.... but about half of the way through it I discovered that I didn't really care about or even like the characters... --- On Mon, 12/6/10, Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote: From: Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> Subject: (urth) Inire: Ancient Alien To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net> Date: Monday, December 6, 2010, 10:00 AM All of this discussiion about Inire seems to have clicked him into place for me at least. One myth I think about A LOT, in general, and in connection with BotNS, is the "Ancient Aliens shaped humanity" idea. Inire is, very literally, an "ancient alien" who has been shaping mankind. In Zacharia Sitchin's interpretation, humans were modified from the hominid stock of earth to be more like the Annunaki. (sp?). If nothing else, Inire's description as ancient bent monkeylike cacogen seems to connect with this idea of modified hominid stock. I think that works well enough for me. I don't need to understand all the hidden machinations, but I do like to label the character archetype. It's pretty funny actually. Amidst all this recombination of classic myths we have a very contemporary one thrown in. Inire is the Ancient Alien. We could go further and tie this to the Cummean and her lizardly ways. There is also the branch of Ancient Alien speculation that deals with all that David Icke Reptoids bullshit (which is hilariously entertaining if nothing else.) with it's human and reptilian hybrids. Speaking of hilariously entertaining, does anyone else watch History Channel's Ancient Aliens series? I lurve that show. The recent one on all the new (2000's) discoveries of underwater megalithic structures over 10,000 years old all over the world was damn interesting. Such an entertainingly sensationalistic tabloid presentation of these ideas. ~Witz _______________________________________________

On 12/6/2010 1:00 PM, Son of Witz wrote: All of this discussiion about Inire seems to have clicked him into place for me at least. One myth I think about A LOT, in general, and in connection with BotNS, is the "Ancient Aliens shaped humanity" idea. Inire is, very literally, an "ancient alien" who has been shaping mankind. In Zacharia Sitchin's interpretation, humans were modified from the hominid stock of earth to be more like the Annunaki. (sp?). If nothing else, Inire's description as ancient bent monkeylike cacogen seems to connect with this idea of modified hominid stock. I think that works well enough for me. I don't need to understand all the hidden machinations, but I do like to label the character archetype. It's pretty funny actually. Amidst all this recombination of classic myths we have a very contemporary one thrown in. Inire is the Ancient Alien. We could go further and tie this to the Cummean and her lizardly ways. There is also the branch of Ancient Alien speculation that deals with all that David Icke Reptoids bullshit (which is hilariously entertaining if nothing else.) with it's human and reptilian hybrids. Speaking of hilariously entertaining, does anyone else watch History Channel's Ancient Aliens series? I lurve that show. The recent one on all the new (2000's) discoveries of underwater megalithic structures over 10,000 years old all over the world was damn interesting. Such an entertainingly sensationalistic tabloid presentation of these ideas. ~Witz _______________________________________________ Urth Mailing List

On 12/6/2010 1:49 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote: On 12/6/2010 11:39 AM, Son of Witz wrote:

Until you said it, I hadn't realized that my vision of Typhon was Alexander. I drew him the other day and was compelled to put a laurel wreath on his head, which is totally inappropriate, but it came out that way. Blonde hair and all.

I suppose this means dark-haired Piaton would be drawn with a grey forelock?

On 12/6/2010 1:00 PM, Son of Witz wrote: All of this discussiion about Inire seems to have clicked him into place for me at least. One myth I think about A LOT, in general, and in connection with BotNS, is the "Ancient Aliens shaped humanity" idea. Inire is, very literally, an "ancient alien" who has been shaping mankind. In Zacharia Sitchin's interpretation, humans were modified from the hominid stock of earth to be more like the Annunaki. (sp?). If nothing else, Inire's description as ancient bent monkeylike cacogen seems to connect with this idea of modified hominid stock. I think that works well enough for me. I don't need to understand all the hidden machinations, but I do like to label the character archetype. It's pretty funny actually. Amidst all this recombination of classic myths we have a very contemporary one thrown in. Inire is the Ancient Alien. We could go further and tie this to the Cummean and her lizardly ways. There is also the branch of Ancient Alien speculation that deals with all that David Icke Reptoids bullshit (which is hilariously entertaining if nothing else.) with it's human and reptilian hybrids. Speaking of hilariously entertaining, does anyone else watch History Channel's Ancient Aliens series? I lurve that show. The recent one on all the new (2000's) discoveries of underwater megalithic structures over 10,000 years old all over the world was damn interesting. Such an entertainingly sensationalistic tabloid presentation of these ideas. ~Witz _______________________________________________

On 12/6/2010 6:34 AM, Lee Berman wrote:

Jeff Wilson: It is very Wolfean for Typhon to be patterned after Alexander. But saying that a similar likeness of Tzadkiel and Inire to Alexadner's gods makes it believable that Inirie is his own legion of shape shifters who are never seen to change shape is as useful as saying it is believable that Wolfe implies that Alexander was also a space tyrant, just one that was never seen to employ spaceships.

I see clues that Inire is patterned after Pan who could create his own legion of helpers. Why is this so much less plausible than a character patterned after Alexander? Are you suggesting WOlfe would never put a pagan god into his stories?

"as useful" to whom? Do you mean useful to yourself or are you speaking for all Wolfe readers?

I continue to find the adjective "believeable" an odd choice for a work of fiction. We may have different levels of rigidity in our perception of the real world. But it is my opinion that our perceptions of fiction are best kept fluid and flexible.

We never see Tzadkiel change shape either (only size). Do you have any skepticism that the succession of creatures that Severian sees are all Tzadkiel? If you are 100% skeptical of various versions of Inire by the absence of being shown the process, I'd think you'd be at least 50% skeptical of Tzadkiel's versions. I am curious as to your level of doubt regarding Inhumi shapeshifting. Also for Abaia, The Mother (on Blue) and Great Scylla.

Jeff Wilson- Inire and the Cumaean are manufactured creatures or at least of manufactured race, like the rest of the Yesodis. ..... They become bent with age as they struggle to exceed their parameters, but that's it.

...They have no need to split and change shape because they are made to order for their specific tasks handed down by the likes of Tzadkiel...They're the underpeople, the replicants of Yesod, similar to the way the animal-folk are the underpeople of the Commonwealth.

On 12/7/2010 6:44 AM, Lee Berman wrote: I might have some minor quibbles but I don't have huge objections to your theory. What I don't understand is why this has to be the ONLY possible theory. why can't Wolfe be read on more than one level?

You have your alien-based theory which is fine. But why ignore the angelic nature of Tzadkiel's name and ignore the hierarchial nature of angels and deny the possibility of fallen angel analogs?

Why can't Wolfe be read on more than one level?

Jeff Wilson- It's one interpretation per level of the text.

There's considerable middle ground between ignoring an idea and embracing it as literal gospel. Yesod is figuratively heaven, Tzadkiel is sorta-kinda an angel, and Inire and the Cumaean may have fallen from the grace of their "cousins" by casting their lots in with Urthly humanity. I suppose Inire being a able to be a Pannite anyone anywhere is a slightly fresher metaphor than being Argus Thousandeyed, but it's too good a solution - it threatens to half-solve all the mysteries in the book with the same answer "Inire did it", and leave unanswerable "why did he bother?"

From the gothic space opera perspective you see Inire and the Cumaean as being assigned tasks on Urth by an angelic boss. To me this doesn't ring true as what they are doing seems anything but angelic- perpetrating an endless war by playing both sides, necromancy, witchcraft, cloning, beautification via mutilation, animal-human splicing, etc. So, I look to a different level for an explanation and I get one. It isn't THE answer but it is AN answer. I am actually quite interested in alternate answers.

On Dec 7, 2010, at 11:38 AM, Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote: As, mentioned to Gerry, I'm open to any questions at any level regarding my theory. I'll do my best to answer.

Son o'Witz:Well, If you've laid out the theory in one posting, I missed it.

David Stockhoff- nice! It's actually a good idea to have a list like this, although I'd approach it a little differently, trying to emphasize the organizing principle.

the creation of myth

"book as universe/author as God."

From: "Lee Berman" <severiansola at hotmail.com> Why can't Wolfe be read on more than one level? Jeff Wilson- It's one interpretation per level of the text.

I could accept that as a working principle. But then we have to discuss how many levels of understanding there are. Severian is required to recite the 7 levels in regard to governance. I think the first and last are the same, so let's go for 6. 1. Gothic space opera 2. Religious-theological allegory 3. Mythological allusion and analog 4. Socio-political allegory (Peter Wright) 5. Classic literature references 6. Gene Wolfe autobiographical In my view, a serious reader should try to understand the Sun Series at all six levels simultaneously. When understanding at one level has gaps or vague areas it is valid to seek answers or gap fillers at the other levels. For example if the gothic space opera doesn't tell us who Severian's family members are it is possible we can infer answers from the other levels.

Gerry Quinn- I wonder if my differences with Lee and James are in part due to us looking for puzzle solutions in different places? They look for allusions, I look at descriptions and events in the story.

From: "Lee Berman" <severiansola at hotmail.com>

Gerry Quinn- I wonder if my differences with Lee and James are in part due to us looking for puzzle solutions in different places? They look for allusions, I look at descriptions and events in the story.

Very insightful! It is such an apt analysis you needn't even qualify it with "in part". The Meyers-Briggs assessment that has been discussed would describe you as a Sensory (S) type as opposed to an Intuitive (N) type.

One thing- S types, especially males, tend to be focused on non-human nuts and bolts type of things and ignore the human side of things. N-types are more likely to be aware of the humanity which colors every part of our experience. Thus, Gerry, you are so quick to dismiss ideas and concepts you cannot see as "unlikely", blithely unaware that you are dismissing a human being and his/her intelligence and hours of involved thought and writing. I know that I am a bit weak on Sensory skills. I don't care much about the height of the Wall of Nessus or the distance between Blue and Green. But I respect those who do and I defer to them as better experts in solving such puzzles. Perhaps you could be more respectful of those who are better at solving the human/word puzzles than you.