{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5800", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5800, "subject": "Father Inire Theory", "messages": 60, "voices": 13, "first": "2010-12-04T09:46:27+00:00", "last": "2010-12-14T03:24:49+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-04T09:46:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason: I'm a bit at a loss here because I've come in at the end of an argument. \nCan you tell me briefly what the Inire theory is? It seems to me _obvious_ that Inire \nis keeping an eye on Severian and guiding him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nDrawn out to its conclusions it is pretty expansive but I'll try for brevity. It may be\nbetter seen as a model than a theory.\n \nIts origin, as far as I know, is from Borski's Solar Labyrinth, where he notices a number\nof characters who resemble the never-seen Inire. The monkey stuff gets over-emphasized;\nperhaps most by those hoping to gainsay the theory. Foila's story suggests a shapeshifter\nmay be identified by more than one feature (in her case, a gold ring and brown clothing/\nfeathers). For Father Inire, Borski identifies the monkey stuff, being small, old and bent,\nand having obscured eyes (I'm a bit iffy on the eyes, myself, but only a bit).\n \nBorski's conclusion is that Father Inire may be modelled as a Moses figure. I depart there\nand find that taking on various human and animal guises sounds more like the earthly \nappearances of the Greek gods. Father Inire is a alien but many SF stories have conflated\nthe Greek gods with aliens (who could forget Spock and Kirk being tossed about the bridge\nas giant Apollo shakes the Enterprise between his pinched fingers?)\n \nI tried to peruse the text for more possible appearances of Inire and most of those\nI found have been mentioned by others in the previous thread. The one that hasn't been \nmentioned is the one that has caused the most objection to my version of the theory in\nthe past: The Boatman. He is a small, bent old man though with no monkey features or \nobscured eyes mentioned. I find the fact that he hangs out in the Botanic Garden and\ndiscusses Father Inire's appearance (same as his own) and actions to be clues that he is\na possible version of Inire, though others disagree.\n \nBut the main point of objection for Boatman=Inire is that Boatman is eventually revealed to be \nDorcas' husband. How could an alien mate with a human? And why? Also, the problem is that\nSeverian is Dorcas' grandson so this implies that Severian is part alien. HOw could that be?\n \nBut if we switch to the Greek mythology model I think it starts to make perfect sense. The\nGreek gods were always taking human form and mating with humans. And they often had offspring\nwho became the heroes of legend, like Heracles, Theseus and Perseus. Moreover, Severian's life \nfollows the arc of a Greek hero fairly closely- ambiguous parentage, special childhood training, \nexile, adventure, quest etc. (Campbellian archetype noted)\n \nI think part of the problem is that this story is told in First Person. It is all very well for\nus to read in Third Person about Zeus coming to earth and ravishing women and having heroic \nsons raised thinking they were fully human. But if that stuff had happened to our own lives, and\nwe discovered it, there is an \"ewww\" factor which I think WOlfe was actually going for. Severian \nnever openly tells us he had sex with his grandmother we have to figure it out. I think there are \nmany other, even more disguised \"eewww\" mysteries in BotNS we are meant to figure out for ourselves.\n \nAccepting Boatman=Inire can have far-reaching implications for the story, regarding Severian's \nfamily and regarding religious philosophical themes. But I'll leave it at this for now. Hopefully\nit was brief enough. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFA1025.8020302@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-04T09:55:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/4/2010 3:46 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nBut the main point of objection for Boatman=Inire is that Boatman is eventually revealed to be\nDorcas' husband. How could an alien mate with a human? And why? Also, the problem is that\nSeverian is Dorcas' grandson so this implies that Severian is part alien. HOw could that be?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the main point of objection is that the Boatman visibly *dies* \nten years before the Book mentions Inire is still around." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-04T11:47:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "<4CFA1025.8020302@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I understand that Gene Wolfe's work attracts a lot of scientists and science-minded people. \nI have been one myself though I am now retreated to the comfort and boredom of government work;\nI confess to enjoying reviewing grant applications over writing them. But I can appreciate\nthe tendency toward peer-reviewing ideas about this story as though it were science with the need\nfor vigorous gatekeeping. But my preferred approach is to view the process as art/literature \nappreciation and its encouragement of creative thinking." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: I think the main point of objection is that the Boatman visibly *dies* \nten years before the Book mentions Inire is still around." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That has been a minority but significant objection through the past few years (I think it has been\n5-6 years since I first posted my ideas). If we can postulate that Father Inire=The Boatman\nand if we can postulate that the Father Inire is modelled after a Greek god pattern there are two\nreasonable guesses to address the objection.\n \n1. Father Inire is immortal. He is not really dead but feigning death. He does this because his\npurpose in getting Severian to resurrect Dorcas is accomplished and he needs to focus on other\ntasks. Also he needs to give his beloved Dorcas closure so she can move on and make the most of\nher resurrected life. \n \n2. Father Inire is like Dionysus/Pan (or Tzadkiel, or Abaia and Scylla) and able to to multiply \nhimself into a bunch of cloned beings all working to accomplish his various goals simultaneously.\nPerhaps the clones are not immortal and will die once their task is completed.\n \n \nEither way, Dorcas will probably end up living with her son Ouen, whom Severian has assigned to\nseek her out. He is twice her age but she will probably be attracted to his kind, gentle nature\nand he to her for obvious reasons. (\"ewwww\"). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<6D7E5723-E6B5-487C-BEE9-2D6687FA8295@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-04T15:22:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "<4CFA1025.8020302@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 4, 2010, at 1:55 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 12/4/2010 3:46 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But the main point of objection for Boatman=Inire is that Boatman is eventually revealed to be\nDorcas' husband. How could an alien mate with a human? And why? Also, the problem is that\nSeverian is Dorcas' grandson so this implies that Severian is part alien. HOw could that be?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the main point of objection is that the Boatman visibly *dies* ten years before the Book mentions Inire is still around.\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wait a sec. I JUST finished NewSun again and I can not remember the old boatman in any other scenes besides the near drowning at the beginning and when we meet him on the Lake of Birds. When do we see him again?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-04T15:58:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "<6D7E5723-E6B5-487C-BEE9-2D6687FA8295@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well doesn't Severian mate with Apheta? I'm not sure inner-species mating would be my main objection to Inire as Boatman.\n\nUnless the corridors of time can create X amount of instances of Inire's and Severian's, of course.\n\nHe is Father Inire and yet not, to my knowledge, a priest. Anyone for Inire as Increate?\n\n:)\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 4, 2010, at 10:22 AM, Son of Witz wrote:\nOn Dec 4, 2010, at 1:55 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/4/2010 3:46 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But the main point of objection for Boatman=Inire is that Boatman is eventually revealed to be\nDorcas' husband. How could an alien mate with a human? And why? Also, the problem is that\nSeverian is Dorcas' grandson so this implies that Severian is part alien. HOw could that be?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think the main point of objection is that the Boatman visibly *dies* ten years before the Book mentions Inire is still around." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFA6EC9.5020302@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-04T16:39:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "<6D7E5723-E6B5-487C-BEE9-2D6687FA8295@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\nOn Dec 4, 2010, at 1:55 AM, Jeff Wilson > wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think the main point of objection is that the Boatman visibly *dies*\nten years before the Book mentions Inire is still around." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wait a sec. I JUST finished NewSun again and I can not remember the old\nboatman in any other scenes besides the near drowning at the beginning\nand when we meet him on the Lake of Birds. When do we see him again?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When Severian enters Nessus from the south upon becoming Autarch he \npasses by a house in the deserted districts where Dorcas is tending \npresumably him." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-04T17:25:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "<4CFA6EC9.5020302@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "M. ben Witz: Wait a sec. I JUST finished NewSun again and I can not remember the \nold boatman in any other scenes besides the near drowning at the beginning and when \nwe meet him on the Lake of Birds." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThat's an interest post to me Witz. Most do not think the boatman at the drowning is\nthe Boatman at the Lake of Birds. I think Borski suggests that the \"drowning\" old boatman\nis Maxellindis' \"Uncle\", who is also a boatman, because they both speak of undines. Actually\nall three of these boatmen speak of undines. I wrote it as Maxellindis' \"Uncle\" because \nSeverian suspects it isn't really her uncle. Thus we have at least two of the boatmen showing\na creepy fascination for pubescent young women (some calculate Dorcas' age at 13-14 for her\nfirst birth). So maybe add \"creepy poppet fascination\" to \"monkeys\", \"old and bent\" and \"obscured \neyes\" as marks of a shapeshifter.\n \n \nAnyway, at the end of CotA, Severian gets off the Samru and takes a jaunt through the crumbled\nruins of old Nessus. He finds Dorcas, apparently in silent grief at the bier of the old boatman\nfrom the Lake of Birds. So we don't actually see him die but he is, in appearance, dead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn-He is Father Inire and yet not, to my knowledge, a priest. Anyone for Inire as Increate?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHeh! Actually my theory addresses the issue of \"Father\" Inire in two ways:\n \n1. Inire can be paired with The Cumaean in a number of diffent ways (her abode, their alien nature, etc)\nShe is also called The Mother. So perhaps the pairing is related to Inire's appelation of Father.\n\n2. I see flimsy evidence (which only makes sense added together) that Inire, using his longevity, has\nmanaged to get busy with a number of women in Severian's family tree when they were young girls. This\nincluded Dorcas (as Fechin), Cyriaca (as her cosmicly knowledgable \"uncle\"), and Agia (as Hethor). \nPerhaps Inire (which can be Latin for \"sexual penetration\") gets his title of Father by siring a \nfew members of Severian's family. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-04T17:48:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Dec 4, 2010, at 12:25 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nM. ben Witz: Wait a sec. I JUST finished NewSun again and I can not remember the \nold boatman in any other scenes besides the near drowning at the beginning and when \nwe meet him on the Lake of Birds." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's an interest post to me Witz. Most do not think the boatman at the drowning is\nthe Boatman at the Lake of Birds. I think Borski suggests that the \"drowning\" old boatman\nis Maxellindis' \"Uncle\", who is also a boatman, because they both speak of undines. Actually\nall three of these boatmen speak of undines. I wrote it as Maxellindis' \"Uncle\" because \nSeverian suspects it isn't really her uncle. Thus we have at least two of the boatmen showing\na creepy fascination for pubescent young women (some calculate Dorcas' age at 13-14 for her\nfirst birth). So maybe add \"creepy poppet fascination\" to \"monkeys\", \"old and bent\" and \"obscured \neyes\" as marks of a shapeshifter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To me, the simple clue of a random old man asking whether a man underwater was sure he didn't see a woman under there, would suggest the Boatman. Doesn't Gyoll flow into the Garden of Endless Sleep, anyway?\n\nI don't recall the boatman at Gyoll asking after undines, just whether Severian was sure he didn't see a woman.\n\nAnd regarding the boatman at the Botanic having a fascination for young girls, why couldn't the boatman have been of a similar age when she died? I thought the point of the boatman was to demonstrate just how long Dorcas had been submerged. Am I missing something?\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-04T18:21:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for this, Lee. Let me see what I can make of it.\n\nIs Inire a shape-shifter? I'm inclined to say not, because in the\nscenes where it's most generally agreed we see him, he's masked or\nhooded - and as Jeff Wilson pointed out, this means he can actually\n'disguise' himself by revealing his face - also in one case he is\nnaked, which is another form of disguise. In addition, Severian refers\nto his life being prolonged beyond the short life-span of his race,\nwhich suggests he belongs to the same species as Barbatus and\nFamulimus, who, again, are masked. But all these disguises would not\nbe needed if they could change shape. (Of course, we are told that he\n- if he is the jungle shaman - can change into a tiger. But this seems\nrather unhelpful; Severian never meets a tiger.)\n\nHuman/alien breeding. The most relevant passage here is from _Urth_\nwhere Gunnie is talking about the jibers; she says sometimes people\nfrom two different origins pair up and have children, but the children\nthemselves are normally not fertile. It's not clear, though, if she\nmeans people of completely different origins, or people of human\ndescent on different planets, who have evolved away from one another,\nas we know happens. (Though if such a person came to Urth, might they\nstill be called a cacogen?) This leaves me rather doubtful about\nwhether Inire can be anyone's grandfather. (Sex between humans and\naliens is certainly possible, witness Apheta, as Ryan Dunn points out;\nthe question is about offspring. I know Severian and Apheta have\noffspring of a sort; but not biologically.)\n\n(If Inire's species _can_ breed with humans, though, might the other\nmonkey-like people be his children?)\n\nThematically; might Severian's having alien descent spoil his status\nas the epitome of Urth? Or should we see cacogens as now part of the\ncommunity of Urth - or perhaps Inire as having, by choice, become part\nof it? I have an idea that we are meant to see Severian as descended\nfrom people who represent all the classes of the Commonwealth - Dorcas\nis an optimate, her husband is commonalty, Catherine was religious by\nvocation, and either exultant or armiger by birth, or perhaps a\nmixture of the two (that Severian has some exultant blood is suggested\nby the fact that several people mistake him for one). We just have to\nget a servant of the throne in somewhere, or perhaps Severian can\nrepresent them himself. Might there also be a cacogen? It would be\nappropriate in some ways, not in others.\n\n(I'm not suggesting people believe this just because it's thematically\nappropriate. I'd like some clues as to who his exultant and armiger\nforebears were. But given the way Wolfe writes, it's quite possible\nthere are such clues, waiting to be discovered.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I tried to peruse the text for more possible appearances of Inire and most of those\nI found have been mentioned by others in the previous thread. The one that hasn't been\nmentioned is the one that has caused the most objection to my version of the theory in\nthe past: The Boatman. He is a small, bent old man though with no monkey features or\nobscured eyes mentioned. I find the fact that he hangs out in the Botanic Garden and\ndiscusses Father Inire's appearance (same as his own) and actions to be clues that he is\na possible version of Inire, though others disagree." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't find that persuasive - that he reports having seen Father\nInire strikes me as evidence that he is _not_ the same person. But I\nrealise that 'I don't find that persuasive' is, itself, not\npersuasive, so here are a couple of more substantial points. First,\nhow significant is it that the boatman _now_ looks something like\nInire, if, as I take it, he has not always done so? Did he look like\nthat when he lived with Dorcas? And second, Severian sees a piece of\npaper with the boatman's name on it - the chart giving details of\nDorcas's burial - but, he claims, doesn't take it in. I'm fairly sure\nthis name is meant to be significant in some way. Presuably it isn't\n'Inire'. But if it's an assumed name, why create the air of mystery\nabout it?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8BA6F53B-8C80-413D-B97B-A09BBED5B6F8@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-04T19:40:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 4, 2010, at 9:25 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "M. ben Witz: Wait a sec. I JUST finished NewSun again and I can not remember the \nold boatman in any other scenes besides the near drowning at the beginning and when \nwe meet him on the Lake of Birds." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's an interest post to me Witz. Most do not think the boatman at the drowning is\nthe Boatman at the Lake of Birds. I think Borski suggests that the \"drowning\" old boatman\nis Maxellindis' \"Uncle\", who is also a boatman, because they both speak of undines. Actually\nall three of these boatmen speak of undines. I wrote it as Maxellindis' \"Uncle\" because \nSeverian suspects it isn't really her uncle. Thus we have at least two of the boatmen showing\na creepy fascination for pubescent young women (some calculate Dorcas' age at 13-14 for her\nfirst birth). So maybe add \"creepy poppet fascination\" to \"monkeys\", \"old and bent\" and \"obscured \neyes\" as marks of a shapeshifter.\n\n\nAnyway, at the end of CotA, Severian gets off the Samru and takes a jaunt through the crumbled\nruins of old Nessus. He finds Dorcas, apparently in silent grief at the bier of the old boatman\nfrom the Lake of Birds. So we don't actually see him die but he is, in appearance, dead." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you. I forgot this one line reappearance." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ryan Dunn-He is Father Inire and yet not, to my knowledge, a priest. Anyone for Inire as Increate?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heh! Actually my theory addresses the issue of \"Father\" Inire in two ways:\n\n1. Inire can be paired with The Cumaean in a number of diffent ways (her abode, their alien nature, etc)\nShe is also called The Mother. So perhaps the pairing is related to Inire's appelation of Father.\n\n2. I see flimsy evidence (which only makes sense added together) that Inire, using his longevity, has\nmanaged to get busy with a number of women in Severian's family tree when they were young girls. This\nincluded Dorcas (as Fechin), Cyriaca (as her cosmicly knowledgable \"uncle\"), and Agia (as Hethor). \nPerhaps Inire (which can be Latin for \"sexual penetration\") gets his title of Father by siring a \nfew members of Severian's family. \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-04T19:48:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "<8BA6F53B-8C80-413D-B97B-A09BBED5B6F8@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another point. Yes, the hiero's state openly that Severian is chosen for his eidetic memory. But it has to be more than that. Surely in a Commonwealth where a pauper can leap from a bartizan each time we draw breath without affecting the populace in the slightest, there are numerous individuals with photographic memory.\n\nI would have to re-read the books with this in mind, but Sire Inire may not be as implausible as it sounds.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 4, 2010, at 2:40 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nOn Dec 4, 2010, at 9:25 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "M. ben Witz: Wait a sec. I JUST finished NewSun again and I can not remember the \nold boatman in any other scenes besides the near drowning at the beginning and when \nwe meet him on the Lake of Birds." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's an interest post to me Witz. Most do not think the boatman at the drowning is\nthe Boatman at the Lake of Birds. I think Borski suggests that the \"drowning\" old boatman\nis Maxellindis' \"Uncle\", who is also a boatman, because they both speak of undines. Actually\nall three of these boatmen speak of undines. I wrote it as Maxellindis' \"Uncle\" because \nSeverian suspects it isn't really her uncle. Thus we have at least two of the boatmen showing\na creepy fascination for pubescent young women (some calculate Dorcas' age at 13-14 for her\nfirst birth). So maybe add \"creepy poppet fascination\" to \"monkeys\", \"old and bent\" and \"obscured \neyes\" as marks of a shapeshifter.\n\n\nAnyway, at the end of CotA, Severian gets off the Samru and takes a jaunt through the crumbled\nruins of old Nessus. He finds Dorcas, apparently in silent grief at the bier of the old boatman\nfrom the Lake of Birds. So we don't actually see him die but he is, in appearance, dead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thank you. I forgot this one line reappearance." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Ryan Dunn-He is Father Inire and yet not, to my knowledge, a priest. Anyone for Inire as Increate?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Heh! Actually my theory addresses the issue of \"Father\" Inire in two ways:\n\n1. Inire can be paired with The Cumaean in a number of diffent ways (her abode, their alien nature, etc)\nShe is also called The Mother. So perhaps the pairing is related to Inire's appelation of Father.\n\n2. I see flimsy evidence (which only makes sense added together) that Inire, using his longevity, has\nmanaged to get busy with a number of women in Severian's family tree when they were young girls. This\nincluded Dorcas (as Fechin), Cyriaca (as her cosmicly knowledgable \"uncle\"), and Agia (as Hethor). \nPerhaps Inire (which can be Latin for \"sexual penetration\") gets his title of Father by siring a \nfew members of Severian's family. \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-04T19:54:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 4, 2010, at 9:48 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nOn Dec 4, 2010, at 12:25 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "M. ben Witz: Wait a sec. I JUST finished NewSun again and I can not remember the \nold boatman in any other scenes besides the near drowning at the beginning and when \nwe meet him on the Lake of Birds." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's an interest post to me Witz. Most do not think the boatman at the drowning is\nthe Boatman at the Lake of Birds. I think Borski suggests that the \"drowning\" old boatman\nis Maxellindis' \"Uncle\", who is also a boatman, because they both speak of undines. Actually\nall three of these boatmen speak of undines. I wrote it as Maxellindis' \"Uncle\" because \nSeverian suspects it isn't really her uncle. Thus we have at least two of the boatmen showing\na creepy fascination for pubescent young women (some calculate Dorcas' age at 13-14 for her\nfirst birth). So maybe add \"creepy poppet fascination\" to \"monkeys\", \"old and bent\" and \"obscured \neyes\" as marks of a shapeshifter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To me, the simple clue of a random old man asking whether a man underwater was sure he didn't see a woman under there, would suggest the Boatman. Doesn't Gyoll flow into the Garden of Endless Sleep, anyway?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I think this is the evidence that they could be the same. Works for me far better than monkeys and foreign name translations do to solve other identity problems." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't recall the boatman at Gyoll asking after undines, just whether Severian was sure he didn't see a woman.\n\nAnd regarding the boatman at the Botanic having a fascination for young girls, why couldn't the boatman have been of a similar age when she died? I thought the point of the boatman was to demonstrate just how long Dorcas had been submerged. Am I missing something?\n\n...ryan\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, there is nothing Pedophilic about him. He's looking for his wife, who was woman enough to have born two children. \n\nAnd, as a complete side note, and hopefully not to offensive one, is that our modern frame for pedophila doesn't hold in this context. Only in the last hundred or so years could a 14-18 year old female capable of bearing children be considered an object of pedophillia. It's appropriate to our modern sense to say she might not yet be a woman in her mind and spirit, but let's be certain. If she can bear a child, her body is that of a woman's. Can we stop calling men attracted to FERTILE young women pedophiles when it is a natural drive of our entire biological history. A man should only be considered as a dirty pedophillic creep if he's attracted to pre-adolescent girls.\n\nAlso, sorry for my crappy spelling. I've been typing these fast on an iPad, which is easier to make mistakes, and doesn't seem to want to check my spelling without automatically \"fixing\" it, which me no like." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-05T00:35:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I actually wrote to Wolfe about Inire a few months back and his reply was,\nof course, enigmatic, but also interesting. I'll post it later--it may be\nof interest to those here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 1:21 PM, Andrew Mason\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks for this, Lee. Let me see what I can make of it.\n\nIs Inire a shape-shifter? I'm inclined to say not, because in the\nscenes where it's most generally agreed we see him, he's masked or\nhooded - and as Jeff Wilson pointed out, this means he can actually\n'disguise' himself by revealing his face - also in one case he is\nnaked, which is another form of disguise. In addition, Severian refers\nto his life being prolonged beyond the short life-span of his race,\nwhich suggests he belongs to the same species as Barbatus and\nFamulimus, who, again, are masked. But all these disguises would not\nbe needed if they could change shape. (Of course, we are told that he\n- if he is the jungle shaman - can change into a tiger. But this seems\nrather unhelpful; Severian never meets a tiger.)\n\nHuman/alien breeding. The most relevant passage here is from _Urth_\nwhere Gunnie is talking about the jibers; she says sometimes people\nfrom two different origins pair up and have children, but the children\nthemselves are normally not fertile. It's not clear, though, if she\nmeans people of completely different origins, or people of human\ndescent on different planets, who have evolved away from one another,\nas we know happens. (Though if such a person came to Urth, might they\nstill be called a cacogen?) This leaves me rather doubtful about\nwhether Inire can be anyone's grandfather. (Sex between humans and\naliens is certainly possible, witness Apheta, as Ryan Dunn points out;\nthe question is about offspring. I know Severian and Apheta have\noffspring of a sort; but not biologically.)\n\n(If Inire's species _can_ breed with humans, though, might the other\nmonkey-like people be his children?)\n\nThematically; might Severian's having alien descent spoil his status\nas the epitome of Urth? Or should we see cacogens as now part of the\ncommunity of Urth - or perhaps Inire as having, by choice, become part\nof it? I have an idea that we are meant to see Severian as descended\nfrom people who represent all the classes of the Commonwealth - Dorcas\nis an optimate, her husband is commonalty, Catherine was religious by\nvocation, and either exultant or armiger by birth, or perhaps a\nmixture of the two (that Severian has some exultant blood is suggested\nby the fact that several people mistake him for one). We just have to\nget a servant of the throne in somewhere, or perhaps Severian can\nrepresent them himself. Might there also be a cacogen? It would be\nappropriate in some ways, not in others.\n\n(I'm not suggesting people believe this just because it's thematically\nappropriate. I'd like some clues as to who his exultant and armiger\nforebears were. But given the way Wolfe writes, it's quite possible\nthere are such clues, waiting to be discovered.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I tried to peruse the text for more possible appearances of Inire and\nmost of those\nI found have been mentioned by others in the previous thread. The one\nthat hasn't been\nmentioned is the one that has caused the most objection to my version of\nthe theory in\nthe past: The Boatman. He is a small, bent old man though with no monkey\nfeatures or\nobscured eyes mentioned. I find the fact that he hangs out in the Botanic\nGarden and\ndiscusses Father Inire's appearance (same as his own) and actions to be\nclues that he is\na possible version of Inire, though others disagree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't find that persuasive - that he reports having seen Father\nInire strikes me as evidence that he is _not_ the same person. But I\nrealise that 'I don't find that persuasive' is, itself, not\npersuasive, so here are a couple of more substantial points. First,\nhow significant is it that the boatman _now_ looks something like\nInire, if, as I take it, he has not always done so? Did he look like\nthat when he lived with Dorcas? And second, Severian sees a piece of\npaper with the boatman's name on it - the chart giving details of\nDorcas's burial - but, he claims, doesn't take it in. I'm fairly sure\nthis name is meant to be significant in some way. Presuably it isn't\n'Inire'. But if it's an assumed name, why create the air of mystery\nabout it?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFAF973.40506@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-05T02:31:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/4/2010 11:25 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "M. ben Witz: Wait a sec. I JUST finished NewSun again and I can not remember the\nold boatman in any other scenes besides the near drowning at the beginning and when\nwe meet him on the Lake of Birds." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's an interest post to me Witz. Most do not think the boatman at the drowning is\nthe Boatman at the Lake of Birds. I think Borski suggests that the \"drowning\" old boatman\nis Maxellindis' \"Uncle\", who is also a boatman, because they both speak of undines. Actually\nall three of these boatmen speak of undines. I wrote it as Maxellindis' \"Uncle\" because\nSeverian suspects it isn't really her uncle." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maxellindis' uncle was under constant observation by Eata for four or \nfive years on their boat before *he* died, also during the time when \nInire was actively serving Autarch Severian." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-05T04:07:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "<4CFAF973.40506@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Maxellindis' uncle was under constant observation by Eata for four or \nfive years on their boat before *he* died, also during the time when \nInire was actively serving Autarch Severian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWe could thus disqualify Maxellindis' uncle from consideration as a version of Inire.\nOr it could be a push toward option 2: The multiple versions of Inire are independently \noperating copies of a larger god-like being. I've been leaning toward #2 for a while.\n\nThe process is after the pattern we see in Abaia with his multiple agent undines like Juturna \nand Idas I think we see the process starting with Great Scylla at the end of RttW with the army\nof black-cloaked clones growing up from her back. We get the clearest view of it with Tzadkiel \nshapeshifting into to animals and humans and angels of various sizes and genders. \n \nBut whether it be furry beast, hairy troglodyte, Adonis-human, male or female angel, somehow \nSeverian, like the youngest suitor in Foila's story, can always identify the shape-shifter. Now\n(I ask myself) if Severian can identify Tzadkiel in all those various guises, why can't he\nidentify Inire in all his forms?\n \nThe answer is truly central and key to my GUT theory. The answer being that Severian can probably \nidentify Father Inire in all his versions. So why doesn't he tell us? The answer is: \n \nFor the same reason Agilus will not openly tell Severian about his incestuous relationship with\nhis sister. For the same reason Severian will not openly tell us that he knows Dorcas, his lover,\nis his grandmother. Severian knows Father Inire's shameful place in his family and, as an unreliable\nnarrator, is certainly not going to tell us about it. Not in so many words, anyway.\n \nI think Wolfe writes BotNS about Severian in first person so that we might know what it would be like \nto be a contemporary school chum of a greek hero like Heracles. To be friends with him and really know \nthe guy. But what would Heracles say if you asked him, \"Hey Herk, why is your twin brother so different \nfrom you; why are you are so big and strong and he is not?\"\n \nI suggest that in that situation, Heracles would hem and haw and dissemble and lie or do whatever it took \nto avoid telling you, \"Look, Zeus disguised himself as my father and raped my mother, then my father had \nsex with her the same night, so she got pregnant with us as twins but we have different fathers\". Its just\nembarassing and the family's dirty linen isn't something you air out among friends. \n \nActually I detect a number of really shameful things going on with Severian that he indirectly reveals in \nhis narrative without openly revealing them. I guess it might be based on a personal conceit but I think\nI know how liars talk when they are lying. And so does Gene Wolfe. He has Severian, and Agilus and the Old\nLeech and Rudesind and others lie to us throughout the text. Eventually you can pick up the pattern. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-05T04:40:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Someone (I forget who) brought up an objection that I forgot to address. The\nobjection was that we can't compare the shapeshifting and multiple body versions\nof Tzadkiel with Father Inire because they are two completely different sorts of\nbeings.\n \nUsing what I've been calling the gnostic religious view I think it can be demonstrated\nthat the opposite is true. As Greece went from primitive to civilized we see a \na replacement and demotion of old pantheons of gods for new. Major vine god Dionysus gets\ndemoted to minor wine god among the Olympians, but he's still around and not a bad guy.\n \nBut when the Greeks expanded their conquest outward, and more foreign cultures were conquered\na different thing happened to the gods. A process of demonizing the foreign gods and \nangelicizing one's own gods started to take place. The fortunes of war could change the status\nof any given god back and forth. So, angels, demons and pagan gods are all immortal, shapeshifting\ntypes but are labeled based on whether they are perceived as being good, bad or has-beens.\n \nThe goat god Dionysus/Pan might be elevated to the highest deification by some groups, demonized \ninto Azazel or Satan by others and dismissed as mythology by yet others.\n \nIn BotNS, I think we have the analog or allegory for pagan gods (Inire, Cumaean), demons (Abaia,\nErebus) and angels at a couple levels (hierogrammates, hierodules). Given that this is a \npre-Christian, gnostic world/universe, I think we can understand that these beings are essentially \nof a similar kind and have similar power and abilities. As Wolfe has Horn suggest in a religious\nopine from Short Sun, the only difference between a minor god and a major devil is good intentions. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-05T04:43:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But I do think we should use Zak in UotNS as a clue pointing back to the original four volumes. Meaning there's a shapeshifter we should have known about.\n\nThat's my two cents on the matter anyhow. I do believe most of of the major messages from UotNS Gene expected we could deduce from the source text. I think it was a little bit of a clue book also, though I haven't studied it deep enough to be certain.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 4, 2010, at 11:40 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nSomeone (I forget who) brought up an objection that I forgot to address. The\nobjection was that we can't compare the shapeshifting and multiple body versions\nof Tzadkiel with Father Inire because they are two completely different sorts of\nbeings.\n\nUsing what I've been calling the gnostic religious view I think it can be demonstrated\nthat the opposite is true. As Greece went from primitive to civilized we see a \na replacement and demotion of old pantheons of gods for new. Major vine god Dionysus gets\ndemoted to minor wine god among the Olympians, but he's still around and not a bad guy.\n\nBut when the Greeks expanded their conquest outward, and more foreign cultures were conquered\na different thing happened to the gods. A process of demonizing the foreign gods and \nangelicizing one's own gods started to take place. The fortunes of war could change the status\nof any given god back and forth. So, angels, demons and pagan gods are all immortal, shapeshifting\ntypes but are labeled based on whether they are perceived as being good, bad or has-beens.\n\nThe goat god Dionysus/Pan might be elevated to the highest deification by some groups, demonized \ninto Azazel or Satan by others and dismissed as mythology by yet others.\n\nIn BotNS, I think we have the analog or allegory for pagan gods (Inire, Cumaean), demons (Abaia,\nErebus) and angels at a couple levels (hierogrammates, hierodules). Given that this is a \npre-Christian, gnostic world/universe, I think we can understand that these beings are essentially \nof a similar kind and have similar power and abilities. As Wolfe has Horn suggest in a religious\nopine from Short Sun, the only difference between a minor god and a major devil is good intentions. \t\t \t \t\t \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-05T05:08:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 4, 2010, at 3:47 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI can appreciate\nthe tendency toward peer-reviewing ideas about this story as though it were science with the need\nfor vigorous gatekeeping. But my preferred approach is to view the process as art/literature \nappreciation and its encouragement of creative thinking." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While I believe there are rights and wrongs to interpretations, I'm getting a kick out of your idea whether it's right or not.\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFB253F.5040200@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-05T05:38:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/4/2010 10:07 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Maxellindis' uncle was under constant observation by Eata for four or\nfive years on their boat before *he* died, also during the time when\nInire was actively serving Autarch Severian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We could thus disqualify Maxellindis' uncle from consideration as a version of Inire.\nOr it could be a push toward option 2: The multiple versions of Inire are independently\noperating copies of a larger god-like being. I've been leaning toward #2 for a while." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That would suggest that Severian and Dux Caesidius and Ouen are \nshape-shifting godlets, as they resemble each other in just as many \nrespects. Agia and Agilus are even more alike, surely they are as well? \n The Path of Air woman, Catherine, and the woman stolen from the \nnecropolis are likewise suspiciously similar. The village sorcerers are \npractically all alike other than their names, and then there are the ape \nmen at the mine who don't even have names to set them apart. Are they \nall carbon copy gods as well?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-05T05:42:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "<4CFB253F.5040200@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 5, 2010, at 12:38 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 12/4/2010 10:07 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Maxellindis' uncle was under constant observation by Eata for four or\nfive years on their boat before *he* died, also during the time when\nInire was actively serving Autarch Severian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We could thus disqualify Maxellindis' uncle from consideration as a version of Inire.\nOr it could be a push toward option 2: The multiple versions of Inire are independently\noperating copies of a larger god-like being. I've been leaning toward #2 for a while." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That would suggest that Severian and Dux Caesidius and Ouen are shape-shifting godlets, as they resemble each other in just as many respects. Agia and Agilus are even more alike, surely they are as well? The Path of Air woman, Catherine, and the woman stolen from the necropolis are likewise suspiciously similar. The village sorcerers are practically all alike other than their names, and then there are the ape men at the mine who don't even have names to set them apart. Are they all carbon copy gods as well?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To paraphrase with less snarkiness... Jeff Wilson does not believe Father Inire to be a shapeshifter.\n\nMerry Christmas!\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFB2898.9030607@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-05T05:52:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "<4CFB253F.5040200@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/4/2010 11:38 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 12/4/2010 10:07 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Maxellindis' uncle was under constant observation by\nEata for four or\nfive years on their boat before *he* died, also during the time when\nInire was actively serving Autarch Severian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We could thus disqualify Maxellindis' uncle from consideration as a\nversion of Inire.\nOr it could be a push toward option 2: The multiple versions of Inire\nare independently\noperating copies of a larger god-like being. I've been leaning toward\n#2 for a while." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That would suggest that Severian and Dux Caesidius and Ouen are\nshape-shifting godlets, as they resemble each other in just as many\nrespects. Agia and Agilus are even more alike, surely they are as well?\nThe Path of Air woman, Catherine, and the woman stolen from the\nnecropolis are likewise suspiciously similar. The village sorcerers are\npractically all alike other than their names, and then there are the ape\nmen at the mine who don't even have names to set them apart. Are they\nall carbon copy gods as well?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess what I am getting at, why is it important for there to be more \nthan one shapehifting, multi-body godlike being in the story? And why \ndoes the very different forms and behaviors of the apport and Zak and \nTzadkerbell set a precedent for a small group of vaguely reminiscent \npeople who don't actually display shape changing despite going to \nconsiderable trouble to hide their physical appearance?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFB3379.4020205@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-05T06:38:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/4/2010 11:42 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nOn Dec 5, 2010, at 12:38 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/4/2010 10:07 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Maxellindis' uncle was under constant observation by Eata for four or\nfive years on their boat before *he* died, also during the time when\nInire was actively serving Autarch Severian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "We could thus disqualify Maxellindis' uncle from consideration as a version of Inire.\nOr it could be a push toward option 2: The multiple versions of Inire are independently\noperating copies of a larger god-like being. I've been leaning toward #2 for a while." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That would suggest that Severian and Dux Caesidius and Ouen are shape-shifting godlets, as they resemble each other in just as many respects. Agia and Agilus are even more alike, surely they are as well? The Path of Air woman, Catherine, and the woman stolen from the necropolis are likewise suspiciously similar. The village sorcerers are practically all alike other than their names, and then there are the ape men at the mine who don't even have names to set them apart. Are they all carbon copy gods as well?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To paraphrase with less snarkiness... Jeff Wilson does not believe Father Inire to be a shapeshifter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not one of that kind at least. Most of the major and minor characters \nundergo changes equally or more profound, but in different ways. The \nshapeshifting of Foila's story and Tzadkiel's literal ability are \n\"taken\", and the plot device needn't be debased when there are so many \noptions left like Dr Talos' thaumaturgy or the mirrors' \ntransmogrification, or the Exultants' royal jelly, or....\n\nInire and the Cumaean are manufactured creatures or at least of \nmanufactured race, like the rest of the Yesodis. They have no need to \nsplit and change shape because they are made to order for their specific \ntasks handed down by the likes of Tzadkiel. They become bent with age as \nthey struggle to exceed their parameters, but that's it. They're the \nunderpeople, the replicants of Yesod, similar to the way the animal-folk \nare the underpeople of the Commonwealth." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-05T13:55:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "<4CFB3379.4020205@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: That would suggest that Severian and Dux Caesidius and Ouen are \nshape-shifting godlets, as they resemble each other in just as many respects. Agia \nand Agilus are even more alike, surely they are as well?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI'm not sure if this is an expression of personal interest and request for an elaboration of\nmy Father Inire theory or an attempt at invalidating it via reductio ad absurdum. If the latter \nI will suggest, as before, that it is a waste of time. Like shooting fish in a barrel. It is my \nopinion that the superficial mysteries of BotNS which can be solved by careful reading, logic and \na little research are solved. The mysteries which remain, if any do, require a large dose of \nintuition.\n \nAnd intuition is highly individualized. Someone else's imagination is easy to dismiss as\nridiculous. I'm not sure if there is any way to know if the intuitive theories which are now\nbeing proprosed are entirely the product of the imagination of the theorist or if that imagination \nhappens to match the imagination of Gene Wolfe as he was writing BotNs. But I think we should\nstill try.\n \n \nAs it happens, I do have an answer for Jeff's objection. I think WOlfe has given us a method\nfor detecting which characters are gods, demons/monsters and angels- the naming convention.\nThere is no St Inire, St. Typhon or St. Tzadkiel. But there is a St. Caesidius, St. Ouen, \nSte. Agia etc. Dorcas' husband being unnamed (and resembling Inire and Charon) is a clue.\n \nFor this reason, I've been steering my Inire Theory away from (St.) Rudesind. Perhaps his\nold, bent, monkey-like appearance is due to the nature of his assistantship and association\nwith Father Inire and an admonition to trust in the power of names and not be deceived by \nappearances. I don't know. Theory is still a work in progress.\n \nOn the other hand there is no St. Hethor. And his space origin, mirror skills and interest in\nyoung human women make me suspicious. If he was really Inire, would he be trying to kill his\nown grandson? I think perhaps he would if he knew Severian couldn't be killed but had a secret\npower he hoped to explore/exploit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Inire and the Cumaean are manufactured creatures or at least of manufactured race, \nlike the rest of the Yesodis. They have no need to split and change shape because they are made \nto order for their specific tasks handed down by the likes of Tzadkiel. They become bent with age \nas they struggle to exceed their parameters, but that's it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think this is a pretty good theory, similar to Borski's. My own contribution would be suggest \nthat if Inire and the Cumaean had adhrered to the angelic tasks assigned to them they wouldn't\nbe exceeding their parameters. It is by *Falling* from their tasks they have lost the tall, beautiful\nappearance of Barbatus and Famulimus and have an old, twisted, animalistic (monkey/snake) appearance. \n \nB and F remain pure and above humanity. Inire and the Cumaean have gone native, and have gotten involved \nin a variety of evil activities such as running wars, establishing an autarchy surrounded by beautiful \nyoung concubines, witchcraft, beautification, necromancy and eating of the dead. Not a coincidence they\nare gone as Urth is gone.\n \n \nMy biggest problem with Jeff's theory is the final three words. Why can we only look at BotNS from one lens \nor perspective? Viewing the aliens in the story as beings manufactured for a purpose is a good way of \npresenting them to residents of a modern industrial nation. Surely God created Dionysus, Satan and Gabriel\n(or their concepts) for a purpose. \n \nBut how would ancient Greeks or gnostics view such beings? Isn't their perspective just as important or valid \nas ours? Heck the oldest parts of the Bible (including the first few Commanments) virtually acknowledge a \npolytheistic world. I wonder how people 3000 years from now will view our religious beliefs. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFBA640.90406@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-05T14:48:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/5/2010 7:55 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nJeff Wilson-\nThat would suggest that Severian and Dux Caesidius and Ouen are\nshape-shifting godlets, as they resemble each other in just as many respects. Agia\nand Agilus are even more alike, surely they are as well?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So do you posit that the monkeys are Inire's children, or that Inire and \nFetchin are twins?\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<597EFCBBFA8A4743AD9C8D27D9279CD0@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-05T16:16:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nI'm not sure if this is an expression of personal interest and request for \nan elaboration of\nmy Father Inire theory or an attempt at invalidating it via reductio ad \nabsurdum. If the latter\nI will suggest, as before, that it is a waste of time. Like shooting fish \nin a barrel. It is my\nopinion that the superficial mysteries of BotNS which can be solved by \ncareful reading, logic and\na little research are solved. The mysteries which remain, if any do, \nrequire a large dose of\nintuition.\n\nAnd intuition is highly individualized. Someone else's imagination is easy \nto dismiss as\nridiculous. I'm not sure if there is any way to know if the intuitive \ntheories which are now\nbeing proprosed are entirely the product of the imagination of the \ntheorist or if that imagination\nhappens to match the imagination of Gene Wolfe as he was writing BotNs." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There *is* a way to know, or at least to make some determination of \nlikelihood. That is to examine the ways in which these theories are \nsupported or contradicted by the text.\n\nIntuition is not an ability unique to certain inspired readers. Those \nreaders who developed the theories you disdain as \"superficial\" used their \nintuition too, but they also attended to the text as a whole; they shaped \ntheir theories, you might say, between the hammer of intuition and the anvil \nof rationality. (And the work is not done, but there are indications that \nsome progress has been made.)\n\nThe point Jeff is making is that anyone with an imagination can come up with \na million arbitrary theories, but they are only meaningful once they find \nsupport in the text. Granted, it is possible to assert that a text supports \nalmost any interpretation, so long as one is sufficiently free in explaining \naway apparent contradictions and logical leaps. But if one takes this view, \nthen all readings are equally valid, and no reading - however absurd - is \nworth any more than another.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-05T17:40:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire theory", "in_reply_to": "<597EFCBBFA8A4743AD9C8D27D9279CD0@jill>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nJeff Wilson: Maxellindis' uncle was under constant observation by Eata for four or\nfive years on their boat before *he* died, also during the time when\nInire was actively serving Autarch Severian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We could thus disqualify Maxellindis' uncle from consideration as a version of Inire.\nOr it could be a push toward option 2: The multiple versions of Inire are independently\noperating copies of a larger god-like being. I've been leaning toward #2 for a while." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But does this not undemine the idea of Inire keeping a constant watch\non Severian, which I thought was one of the things motivated this\ntheory? He clearly is keeping a watch on Severian, and I'm open to\nthe idea that he is doing so in secret ways as well as the ways we\nknow about; and that the various simians are linked with this is a\nplausible hypothesis, since there does seem to be a weirdly recurring\ntheme which needs some explanation. But that implies a single centre\nof consciousness at which the tracking takes place. If Inire is\ndivided into various parts - and has been for a long time, if the\nboatman is one of them - it's not clear that there is any longer a\nsingle plan to what he is doing.\n\n(So unlike some, I think the monkeys are actually the most plausible\npart of the theory. There's something going on, and it is somehow\nconnected with Inire. But the more diverse kinds of similarity are\nallowed into the theory, the less compelling it looks, as far as I can\nsee.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The process is after the pattern we see in Abaia with his multiple agent undines like Juturna\nand Idas I think we see the process starting with Great Scylla at the end of RttW with the army\nof black-cloaked clones growing up from her back. We get the clearest view of it with Tzadkiel\nshapeshifting into to animals and humans and angels of various sizes and genders.\n\nBut whether it be furry beast, hairy troglodyte, Adonis-human, male or female angel, somehow\nSeverian, like the youngest suitor in Foila's story, can always identify the shape-shifter. Now\n(I ask myself) if Severian can identify Tzadkiel in all those various guises, why can't he\nidentify Inire in all his forms?\n\nThe answer is truly central and key to my GUT theory. The answer being that Severian can probably\nidentify Father Inire in all his versions. So why doesn't he tell us? The answer is:\n\nFor the same reason Agilus will not openly tell Severian about his incestuous relationship with\nhis sister. For the same reason Severian will not openly tell us that he knows Dorcas, his lover,\nis his grandmother. Severian knows Father Inire's shameful place in his family and, as an unreliable\nnarrator, is certainly not going to tell us about it. Not in so many words, anyway.\n\nI think Wolfe writes BotNS about Severian in first person so that we might know what it would be like\nto be a contemporary school chum of a greek hero like Heracles. To be friends with him and really know\nthe guy. But what would Heracles say if you asked him, \"Hey Herk, why is your twin brother so different\nfrom you; why are you are so big and strong and he is not?\"\n\nI suggest that in that situation, Heracles would hem and haw and dissemble and lie or do whatever it took\nto avoid telling you, \"Look, Zeus disguised himself as my father and raped my mother, then my father had\nsex with her the same night, so she got pregnant with us as twins but we have different fathers\". Its just\nembarassing and the family's dirty linen isn't something you air out among friends.\n\nActually I detect a number of really shameful things going on with Severian that he indirectly reveals in\nhis narrative without openly revealing them. ?I guess it might be based on a personal conceit but I think\nI know how liars talk when they are lying. And so does Gene Wolfe. He has Severian, and Agilus and the Old\nLeech and Rudesind and others lie to us throughout the text. Eventually you can pick up the pattern.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 20:22:56 -0800\nFrom: Son of Witz \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: (urth) Monty Python's New Sun\nMessage-ID: <2E20E67A-6663-477A-84C6-860E45AF9FE2 at butcherbaker.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain; ? ? ? charset=us-ascii\n\n\nI'm doing dishes, laughing my ass off imagining a Monty Python version of Book of The New Sun.\n\nI can't write the jokes, but I can SEE it!\n\nAnd now for something completely different.\n\n\nSorry.\n~witz\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 23:40:01 -0500\nFrom: Lee Berman \nTo: \nSubject: (urth) Father Inire Theory\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\n\nSomeone (I forget who) brought up an objection that I forgot to address. The\nobjection was that we can't compare the shapeshifting and multiple body versions\nof Tzadkiel with Father Inire because they are two completely different sorts of\nbeings.\n\nUsing what I've been calling the gnostic religious view I think it can be demonstrated\nthat the opposite is true. As Greece went from primitive to civilized we see a\na replacement and demotion of old pantheons of gods for new. Major vine god Dionysus gets\ndemoted to minor wine god among the Olympians, but he's still around and not a bad guy.\n\nBut when the Greeks expanded their conquest outward, and more foreign cultures were conquered\na different thing happened to the gods. ?A process of demonizing the foreign gods and\nangelicizing one's own gods started to take place. The fortunes of war could change the status\nof any given god back and forth. So, angels, demons and pagan gods are all immortal, shapeshifting\ntypes but are labeled based on whether they are perceived as being good, bad or has-beens.\n\nThe goat god Dionysus/Pan might be elevated to the highest deification by some groups, demonized\ninto Azazel or Satan by others and dismissed as mythology by yet others.\n\nIn BotNS, I think we have the analog or allegory for pagan gods (Inire, Cumaean), demons (Abaia,\nErebus) and angels at a couple levels (hierogrammates, hierodules). Given that this is a\npre-Christian, gnostic world/universe, I think we can understand that these beings are essentially\nof a similar kind and have similar power and abilities. As Wolfe has Horn suggest in a religious\nopine from Short Sun, the only difference between a minor god and a major devil is good intentions.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 23:43:26 -0500\nFrom: Ryan Dunn \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Father Inire Theory\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii\n\nBut I do think we should use Zak in UotNS as a clue pointing back to the original four volumes. Meaning there's a shapeshifter we should have known about.\n\nThat's my two cents on the matter anyhow. I do believe most of of the major messages from UotNS Gene expected we could deduce from the source text. I think it was a little bit of a clue book also, though I haven't studied it deep enough to be certain.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Dec 4, 2010, at 11:40 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Someone (I forget who) brought up an objection that I forgot to address. The\nobjection was that we can't compare the shapeshifting and multiple body versions\nof Tzadkiel with Father Inire because they are two completely different sorts of\nbeings.\n\nUsing what I've been calling the gnostic religious view I think it can be demonstrated\nthat the opposite is true. As Greece went from primitive to civilized we see a\na replacement and demotion of old pantheons of gods for new. Major vine god Dionysus gets\ndemoted to minor wine god among the Olympians, but he's still around and not a bad guy.\n\nBut when the Greeks expanded their conquest outward, and more foreign cultures were conquered\na different thing happened to the gods. ?A process of demonizing the foreign gods and\nangelicizing one's own gods started to take place. The fortunes of war could change the status\nof any given god back and forth. So, angels, demons and pagan gods are all immortal, shapeshifting\ntypes but are labeled based on whether they are perceived as being good, bad or has-beens.\n\nThe goat god Dionysus/Pan might be elevated to the highest deification by some groups, demonized\ninto Azazel or Satan by others and dismissed as mythology by yet others.\n\nIn BotNS, I think we have the analog or allegory for pagan gods (Inire, Cumaean), demons (Abaia,\nErebus) and angels at a couple levels (hierogrammates, hierodules). Given that this is a\npre-Christian, gnostic world/universe, I think we can understand that these beings are essentially\nof a similar kind and have similar power and abilities. As Wolfe has Horn suggest in a religious\nopine from Short Sun, the only difference between a minor god and a major devil is good intentions.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFBCFB1.3030303@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-05T17:45:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/5/2010 7:55 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: That would suggest that Severian and Dux Caesidius and Ouen are\nshape-shifting godlets, as they resemble each other in just as many respects. Agia\nand Agilus are even more alike, surely they are as well?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure if this is an expression of personal interest and request for an elaboration of\nmy Father Inire theory or an attempt at invalidating it via reductio ad absurdum. If the latter\nI will suggest, as before, that it is a waste of time. Like shooting fish in a barrel. It is my\nopinion that the superficial mysteries of BotNS which can be solved by careful reading, logic and\na little research are solved. The mysteries which remain, if any do, require a large dose of\nintuition." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One can certainly use intuition as a means of selecting possible \nanswers, but the answer must still logically fit the puzzle given for \nthe exercise to be meaningful." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For this reason, I've been steering my Inire Theory away from (St.) Rudesind. Perhaps his\nold, bent, monkey-like appearance is due to the nature of his assistantship and association\nwith Father Inire and an admonition to trust in the power of names and not be deceived by\nappearances. I don't know. Theory is still a work in progress." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What purpose of the author or of Inire would posing as Rudesinde serve? \nWhy can't his old, bent, monkey-like appearance be due to him being an \nold, malnourished, primate?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand there is no St. Hethor. And his space origin, mirror skills and interest in\nyoung human women make me suspicious. If he was really Inire, would he be trying to kill his\nown grandson? I think perhaps he would if he knew Severian couldn't be killed but had a secret\npower he hoped to explore/exploit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's nothing mysterious or particularly sinister about an older man \nenjoying the attention of a much younger but still adult woman who" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Inire and the Cumaean are manufactured creatures or at least of manufactured race,\nlike the rest of the Yesodis. They have no need to split and change shape because they are made\nto order for their specific tasks handed down by the likes of Tzadkiel. They become bent with age\nas they struggle to exceed their parameters, but that's it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "B and F remain pure and above humanity. Inire and the Cumaean have gone native, and have gotten involved\nin a variety of evil activities such as running wars, establishing an autarchy surrounded by beautiful\nyoung concubines, witchcraft, beautification, necromancy and eating of the dead. Not a coincidence they\nare gone as Urth is gone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "it's not a coincidence that human-scale biological beings who have been \nkept alive by artificial means for many centuries beyond their few \ndecades of normal life die in a flood that kills all but four of the \nbest sheltered, well-fed people in the prime of their lives out of tens \nof millions.\n\nInire and the Cumaean don't need to fall from grace to exceed their \nparameters, they just need to avoid being killed for a few decades while \nthere remains work to do. They apparently are not disowned, or their \n\"cousins\" would not be going business with them for their client, the \nCommonwealth." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFBD0FD.4060408@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-05T17:50:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "<4CFBA640.90406@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/5/2010 8:48 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 12/5/2010 7:55 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson-\nThat would suggest that Severian and Dux Caesidius and Ouen are\nshape-shifting godlets, as they resemble each other in just as many\nrespects. Agia\nand Agilus are even more alike, surely they are as well?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So do you posit that the monkeys are Inire's children, or that Inire and\nFetchin are twins?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the story about Fechin's monkey arm is really about Rudesind's \nmonkey arm, since the grandad gets names wrong." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<07371128-3D58-4FB7-BBA2-8E90AE56EB91@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-05T22:29:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Somehow I lost The message where the difference between \"shaped\" & \"made\" in regards to humans making the Heirogrammates, or rather their ancestors.\n\nI really can't help but think we're missing the point when we interperet this to be some \"artificial\" act of creation, something Promethean. I think the point is that they became like enlightened Bhodisatvas who unhinged themselves from the wheel of time but still send their efforts into it.\nCan't a Bhodisatva be said to have been \"shaped\" by the culture that nurtured it?\n\n~Witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Dec 5, 2010, at 5:55 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nJeff Wilson: Inire and the Cumaean are manufactured creatures or at least of manufactured race, \nlike the rest of the Yesodis. They have no need to split and change shape because they are made \nto order for their specific tasks handed down by the likes of Tzadkiel. They become bent with age \nas they struggle to exceed their parameters, but that's it." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T01:33:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "<07371128-3D58-4FB7-BBA2-8E90AE56EB91@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "aaron: I actually wrote to Wolfe about Inire a few months back and his reply was, of course, \nenigmatic, but also interesting. I'll post it later--it may be of interest to those here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIt will. I have already been waiting for you to post it, with anticipation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason- But the claim that the Hierodules are manufactured for a purpose is\n_not_ just a perspective; it's what it says in the text." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, it says that in the text. But is that all the text says? The text also gives them an angelic appearance \nand their manufacturer an angelic name. This adds another perspective. One is a modern SF view the other is a religious/mythological view. Which is right? We scientific types have been trained to weigh the evidence \nand pick the *one* best working hypothesis or theory. I am suggesting that perhaps to fully understand Gene \nWolfe you have to toss science aside at times. If we are given two competing explanations for something, do \nnot throw one away. Keep them both and maintain a sense of doubled vision for the fullest understanding of \nwhat is going on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But we are told, quite clearly, that the Hierodules were made for a purpose. They are a very different kind \nof being from the Hierogrammates." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nBut we are also told that the Hierogrammates were manufactured (shaped) from lesser creatures by the Hieros.\nSomeone, (Roy maybe?) suggested that the various stages of Zak/Tzadkiel represent the forced evolutionary stages\nwhich resulted in the Hierogrammates. I think we are meant to see in these groups (and the Hierarchs) an analogy to \nthe hierarchy of angels- Archangels, Seraphim, Cherubim etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am worried about your approach because it seems terribly human-centric. All beings that are rational and \nnon-human are classed together as gods; there's us, and there's all the others. But I don't think that's Wolfe's \nperspective; for him there are all sorts of different kinds of being, and humans are just one of them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nI will disagree with you in two ways about that statement. First I don't think it is me but rather Gene Wolfe who \nis so human-centric. Other SF writers create a myriad of planets and uniquely created aliens in various shapes, \nsizes, colors and chemical bases to populate them. Wolfe's stories are populated largely, if not exclusively\nwith human beings. The non-humans are most often patterned on human legends like vampires or salamanders or angels. \nNow and then he shows he is capable of a cool invention like the notule or alzabo but I think they are\nexceptions more than rules. Wolfe is more interested in what going on and what has gone on in history right here \non earth.\n \nSecond, you are glossing over the distinction between gods, demons and angels. Even if they have the same source, \nthey ARE different. And I think the message is that when we judge sentient beings the most important thing to \nconsider is their intention, not their source." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I don't think you can make any assumptions about his powers just on the basis of his [Inire] being an alien." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI am not making an assumption. I am proposing a *possible* model to explain some odd occurances in the book.\nFather Inire might never been intended as anything more than a simple alien who looks like an old guy. That is\na possibility I keep in mind as I read the book. *With a simultaneous awareness of multiple possible levels \nof interpretation*- that is how I think think most serious books with religious themes (including the Bible) \nare best understood. So, do you think BotNS contains religious themes?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But does this [Maxellindis' Uncle=Inire] not undermine the idea of Inire keeping a constant watch on Severian?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNot if Father Inire has multiple versions of himself around the Commonwealth attending to various tasks. I don't \nthink watching Severian is the only purpose Inire has in life. If I had to guess I'd guess Maxellindis' uncle \nhas the task of keeping track of undines and maybe Abaia. But he is a pretty low probability suspect on the Inire \nwatch list, so I wouldn't want to spend too much time on him.\n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T02:59:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn- There *is* a way to know, or at least to make some determination of likelihood. \nThat is to examine the ways in which these theories are supported or contradicted by the text." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWho is the judge on whether the text supports or contradicts a theory? I think the only defensible\nanswer to this question is: Each of us, for ourselves." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Intuition is not an ability unique to certain inspired readers. Those readers who developed the theories \nyou disdain as \"superficial\" used their intuition too, but they also attended to the text as a whole." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYou both misunderstand and misjudge me. When trying to understand people or art I do not use the term\n\"superficial\" to imply disdain. Quite the opposite. To get to the core of an onion we must peel back the \nsuperficial layers. Does this imply that the outer layers of an onion are somehow inferior to the core area?\nNot to me. And I have great respect and reverence for the earlier scholars of Gene Wolfe's work.\n \nWith regard to \"the text as a whole\" I guess you are implying that I am either not familiar with or ignoring\nthe text as I have assembled my theory. This is not the case. I am not as familiar with most of Wolfe's other \nworks but when it comes to BotNS I am extremely familiar with the text. I have been reading it 1-2 times a year \nfor the past 25 years. It may be that some, like Mantis and Roy, have a more encyclopedic knowledge though I have\noffered minor corrections to both (only on BotNS issues). Moreover I keep the text firmly in mind and refer back \nto it all the time as I continue to construct my Father Inire theory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The point Jeff is making is that anyone with an imagination can come up with a million arbitrary theories, but \nthey are only meaningful once they find support in the text." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAgain, the question then becomes who is the judge of support by the text? Meaning cannot be found in \"the text\".\nIt can only be found within the mind of a human being attempting to interpret the text. Each to his own.\n \nMy theory is not arbitrary. I'm not making things up out of my head (why would I do that?). It comes from the text, \nfrom Gene Wolfe interviews and from connections I see to classical mythology, gnostic religions and Judeo-Christian \nscripture. I'm not going to clutter up a post on an internet message board with too many quotations and citations \nbut I can provide the textual support I see for any specific portion of the theory you would like to hear about." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But if one takes this view, then all readings are equally valid, and no reading - however absurd - is worth any more \nthan another." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIf you can explain the objective measure of validity or absurdity of a theory on a work of fiction, please do. I say \n\"worth\" is solely defined by what a theory means to *you*. If nothing, then nothing. But if my Father Inire theory was \nthat he is patterned after Peter Griffin from the Family Guy cartoon would you have paid this much attention to it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- One can certainly use intuition as a means of selecting possible answers, but the answer must still \nlogically fit the puzzle given for the exercise to be meaningful." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNot necessarily. Sometimes a compelling answer can be intuitive with little logic to support it. I will again offer\nHoly Katharine Maid= Catherine as an example. There is no logic to the connection (or perhaps you can explain it with\nlogic?) but many find it a satisfying conclusion anyway.\n \nDifferent puzzles require different skills to solve. Take a jigsaw puzzle (without the box as a guide). You'd start out\nusing \"logical\" methods to solve it...find the outer edge pieces, match similar colored pieces, fit pieces of \ncomplementary shapes together. But eventually you'd see a pattern form, a partial image of the whole that you are \ncreating and a different, intuitive puzzle-solving technique will assert itself, allowing you to correctly place puzzle\npieces even with no adjoining pieces which match.\n \n \nAn example from this board: Recently James Wynn trotted out his theory that Spring Wind is really Typhon. Some discussion\nof winds and storms and Rhea Silvia ensued. I learned some interesting connections I hadn't been aware of. But not\nquite enough to connect the legend of a effete mama's boy, Spring Wind, who loved botany and nature but grew up to follow \nin his father's footsteps as a clever general to the tyrannical, arrogant, jaded, powerful, bisexual monster in the story \nnamed Typhon.\n \nBut James seems like a very intelligent, well-read guy who is passionate about the work of Gene Wolfe. So I wasn't just\ngoing to just dismiss his theory. Maybe he is seeing something in the jigsaw that I was not yet able to see. In \ncontinuing discussions, the name of Alexander (the Great) was brought up as a model for Typhon. Bells and lights went off\nfor me, knowing the story of Alexander, his mother Olympia, his tutor Aristotle, his father King Phillip, his conquests and\nhis final years of tyranny and debauchery before his premature death. There it is- Spring Wind + Typhon almost to a T.\n \nThe rise and fall of Alexander's empire established the 300 year gnostic stage upon which Christianity arose. The rise and \nfall of Typhon's empire established the 1000 year stage upon which Severian's ascension was built. Perhaps others are not \nbut I feel enlightened and enriched in my understanding of BotNS by this connection. And having respect for a fellow Wolfe \nlover allowed me to attain this enlightenment. Thanks James!\n \n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFCAC41.9070900@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T09:26:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/5/2010 8:59 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nThe rise and fall of Alexander's empire established the 300 year gnostic stage upon which Christianity arose. The rise and\nfall of Typhon's empire established the 1000 year stage upon which Severian's ascension was built. Perhaps others are not\nbut I feel enlightened and enriched in my understanding of BotNS by this connection. And having respect for a fellow Wolfe\nlover allowed me to attain this enlightenment. Thanks James!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's great, and I would not dismiss such a thing. It is very Wolfean \nfor Typhon to be patterned after Alexander. But saying that a similar \nlikeness of Tzadkiel and Inire to Alexadner's gods makes it believable \nthat Inirie is his own legion of shape shifters who are never seen to \nchange shape is as useful as saying it is believable that Wolfe implies \nthat Alexander was also a space tyrant, just one that was never seen to \nemploy spaceships." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T12:34:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "<4CFCAC41.9070900@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: It is very Wolfean for Typhon to be patterned after Alexander. But saying that a similar \nlikeness of Tzadkiel and Inire to Alexadner's gods makes it believable that Inirie is his own legion of \nshape shifters who are never seen to change shape is as useful as saying it is believable that Wolfe implies \nthat Alexander was also a space tyrant, just one that was never seen to employ spaceships." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI see clues that Inire is patterned after Pan who could create his own legion of helpers. Why is this so\nmuch less plausible than a character patterned after Alexander? Are you suggesting WOlfe would never put\na pagan god into his stories?\n \n\"as useful\" to whom? Do you mean useful to yourself or are you speaking for all Wolfe readers?\n \nI continue to find the adjective \"believeable\" an odd choice for a work of fiction. We may have different \nlevels of rigidity in our perception of the real world. But it is my opinion that our perceptions of fiction \nare best kept fluid and flexible.\n \nWe never see Tzadkiel change shape either (only size). Do you have any skepticism that the succession of\ncreatures that Severian sees are all Tzadkiel? If you are 100% skeptical of various versions of Inire by\nthe absence of being shown the process, I'd think you'd be at least 50% skeptical of Tzadkiel's versions.\nI am curious as to your level of doubt regarding Inhumi shapeshifting. Also for Abaia, The Mother (on Blue)\nand Great Scylla. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFCE5BD.9020100@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-06T13:31:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I missed this comment of James'. Yes, Typhon was definitely \nAlexander-like in his rapid conquests, whatever they were. That's a \ngreat point.\n\nAnd further, Alexander presents an excellent example of an emperor being \ntreated like a god after his death (horns and all). His example led to \nall sorts of contortions for some Christians, too, because they felt \nthey had to acknowledge or somehow deal with his pre-Christian godliness.\n\nAnd he is the first God Emperor of Dune, too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/5/2010 9:59 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nBut James seems like a very intelligent, well-read guy who is passionate about the work of Gene Wolfe. So I wasn't just\ngoing to just dismiss his theory. Maybe he is seeing something in the jigsaw that I was not yet able to see. In\ncontinuing discussions, the name of Alexander (the Great) was brought up as a model for Typhon. Bells and lights went off\nfor me, knowing the story of Alexander, his mother Olympia, his tutor Aristotle, his father King Phillip, his conquests and\nhis final years of tyranny and debauchery before his premature death. There it is- Spring Wind + Typhon almost to a T.\n\nThe rise and fall of Alexander's empire established the 300 year gnostic stage upon which Christianity arose. The rise and\nfall of Typhon's empire established the 1000 year stage upon which Severian's ascension was built. Perhaps others are not\nbut I feel enlightened and enriched in my understanding of BotNS by this connection. And having respect for a fellow Wolfe\nlover allowed me to attain this enlightenment. Thanks James!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFCECB9.9070309@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T14:01:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "<4CFCE5BD.9020100@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (06-12-2010 13:31):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I missed this comment of James'. Yes, Typhon was definitely\nAlexander-like in his rapid conquests, whatever they were. That's a\ngreat point.\n\nAnd further, Alexander presents an excellent example of an emperor being\ntreated like a god after his death (horns and all). His example led to\nall sorts of contortions for some Christians, too, because they felt\nthey had to acknowledge or somehow deal with his pre-Christian godliness.\n\nAnd he is the first God Emperor of Dune, too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had never noticed it before, but all this time I've been picturing Typhon \nwith the exact same appearance I picture Alexander, curly blond and all (I \ndon't even picture Typhon with two heads)." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-06T17:39:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "<4CFCECB9.9070309@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 6, 2010, at 6:01 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (06-12-2010 13:31):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I missed this comment of James'. Yes, Typhon was definitely\nAlexander-like in his rapid conquests, whatever they were. That's a\ngreat point.\n\nAnd further, Alexander presents an excellent example of an emperor being\ntreated like a god after his death (horns and all). His example led to\nall sorts of contortions for some Christians, too, because they felt\nthey had to acknowledge or somehow deal with his pre-Christian godliness.\n\nAnd he is the first God Emperor of Dune, too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I had never noticed it before, but all this time I've been picturing Typhon with the exact same appearance I picture Alexander, curly blond and all (I don't even picture Typhon with two heads).\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-06T18:00:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire: Ancient Alien", "in_reply_to": "<4CFCECB9.9070309@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All of this discussiion about Inire seems to have clicked him into place for me at least.\nOne myth I think about A LOT, in general, and in connection with BotNS, is the \"Ancient Aliens shaped humanity\" idea. Inire is, very literally, an \"ancient alien\" who has been shaping mankind. \nIn Zacharia Sitchin's interpretation, humans were modified from the hominid stock of earth to be more like the Annunaki. (sp?). If nothing else, Inire's description as ancient bent monkeylike cacogen seems to connect with this idea of modified hominid stock.\n\nI think that works well enough for me. I don't need to understand all the hidden machinations, but I do like to label the character archetype. It's pretty funny actually. Amidst all this recombination of classic myths we have a very contemporary one thrown in. Inire is the Ancient Alien.\n\nWe could go further and tie this to the Cummean and her lizardly ways. There is also the branch of Ancient Alien speculation that deals with all that David Icke Reptoids bullshit (which is hilariously entertaining if nothing else.) with it's human and reptilian hybrids.\n\nSpeaking of hilariously entertaining, does anyone else watch History Channel's Ancient Aliens series? I lurve that show. The recent one on all the new (2000's) discoveries of underwater megalithic structures over 10,000 years old all over the world was damn interesting. Such an entertainingly sensationalistic tabloid presentation of these ideas.\n\n~Witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T18:21:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire: Ancient Alien", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son o'Witz- One myth I think about A LOT, in general, and in connection with BotNS, is the \"Ancient Aliens \nshaped humanity\" idea." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYeah, such ideas were all the rage in the early 70's, just before BotNS was being written. I think Von Daniken's\nChariots of the Gods was the peak of it. I've always thought it might have been an influence on Wolfe.\n \nAnyone remember \"pyramid power\". Heh, I can remember another kid's 7th grade science project, using a cardboard \npyramid precisely aligned with coriolis force or star patterns trying to mummify a lump of raw ground beef. Ugh. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T18:26:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire: Ancient Alien", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But did it sharpen a razor blade..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 10:21 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Son o'Witz- One myth I think about A LOT, in general, and in connection with BotNS, is the \"Ancient Aliens\nshaped humanity\" idea." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yeah, such ideas were all the rage in the early 70's, just before BotNS was being written. I think Von Daniken's\nChariots of the Gods was the peak of it. I've always thought it might have been an influence on Wolfe.\n\nAnyone remember \"pyramid power\". Heh, I can remember another kid's 7th grade science project, using a cardboard\npyramid precisely aligned with coriolis force or star patterns trying to mummify a lump of raw ground beef. Ugh.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<835489.23788.qm@web81403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2010-12-06T18:40:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire: Ancient Alien", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Love me some Ancient Aliens I do...anyone else read the new William Gibson? I love his writing and eye for detail and trends.... but about half of the way through it I discovered that I didn't really care about or even like the characters...\n\n???????? ? ? \n?Mobile — (415) 786-3624\nSTUHAMM.COM\nFACEBOOK/STUARTHAMM\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\nSkype? stuart.hamm\n? ?? \n\n\n--- On Mon, 12/6/10, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: (urth) Inire: Ancient Alien\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, December 6, 2010, 10:00 AM\n\nAll of this discussiion about Inire seems to have clicked him into place for me at least.\nOne myth I think about A LOT, in general, and in connection with BotNS, is the \"Ancient Aliens shaped humanity\" idea. Inire is, very literally, an \"ancient alien\" who has been shaping mankind. \nIn Zacharia Sitchin's interpretation, humans were modified from the hominid stock of earth to be more like the Annunaki. (sp?). If nothing else, Inire's description as ancient bent monkeylike cacogen seems to connect with this idea of modified hominid stock.\n\nI think that works well enough for me. I don't need to understand all the hidden machinations, but I do like to label the character archetype. It's pretty funny actually. Amidst all this recombination of classic myths we have a very contemporary one thrown in. Inire is the Ancient Alien.\n\nWe could go further and tie this to the Cummean and her lizardly ways. There is also the branch of Ancient Alien speculation that deals with all that David Icke Reptoids bullshit (which is hilariously entertaining if nothing else.) with it's human and reptilian hybrids.\n\nSpeaking of hilariously entertaining, does anyone else watch History Channel's Ancient Aliens series? I lurve that show. The recent one on all the new (2000's) discoveries of underwater megalithic structures over 10,000 years old all over the world was damn interesting. Such an entertainingly sensationalistic tabloid presentation of these ideas.\n\n~Witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFD3043.2090602@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T18:49:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/6/2010 11:39 AM, Son of Witz wrote:\nUntil you said it, I hadn't realized that my vision of Typhon was Alexander. I drew him the other day and was compelled to put a laurel wreath on his head, which is totally inappropriate, but it came out that way. Blonde hair and all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose this means dark-haired Piaton would be drawn with a grey forelock?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-06T18:58:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "<4CFD3043.2090602@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 6, 2010, at 10:49 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 12/6/2010 11:39 AM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Until you said it, I hadn't realized that my vision of Typhon was Alexander. I drew him the other day and was compelled to put a laurel wreath on his head, which is totally inappropriate, but it came out that way. Blonde hair and all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suppose this means dark-haired Piaton would be drawn with a grey forelock?\n\n-- \nJeff " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm too dense to get it...\n\n\n\nHowever, my Piaton is drawn with brown skin. It seems that the grafting of Typhon's head to Piaton is nothing more than a hilarious tongue in cheek metaphor for the idea that the aristocracy is a disembodied head riding on the strength of it's slave class. So a blonde white head on a dark skinned slaves body " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T19:06:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- I suppose this means dark-haired Piaton would be drawn with a grey forelock?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nMy thoughts went in the same direction as Jeff's. Typhon does refer to Piaton as his \"steed\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son o' Witz- I'm too dense to get it..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNah, Jeff was being deliberately cryptic. It is a reference to Alexander's beloved horse, Bucephalus. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-06T19:33:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 6, 2010, at 11:06 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson- I suppose this means dark-haired Piaton would be drawn with a grey forelock?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My thoughts went in the same direction as Jeff's. Typhon does refer to Piaton as his \"steed\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Son o' Witz- I'm too dense to get it..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nah, Jeff was being deliberately cryptic. It is a reference to Alexander's beloved horse, Bucephalus. \n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah. I see. Thanks.\nCoincidently, I started reading a book about Alexander this morning. Steven Pressfield's The Afghan Campaign. The prologue was promising of a compelling read. It came recommended by a serious fan of Pressfield, who I've not read before." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFD3ABF.8050305@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T19:34:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/6/2010 12:58 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nOn Dec 6, 2010, at 10:49 AM, Jeff Wilson > wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/6/2010 11:39 AM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Until you said it, I hadn't realized that my vision of Typhon was\nAlexander. I drew him the other day and was compelled to put a laurel\nwreath on his head, which is totally inappropriate, but it came out\nthat way. Blonde hair and all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I suppose this means dark-haired Piaton would be drawn with a grey\nforelock?\n\n--\nJeff" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm too dense to get it..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bucephalus is described as having a black coat with a large white star \non his brow." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0F784109-FE5D-4D51-BD34-DDA3352724F2@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-06T19:35:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire: Ancient Alien", "in_reply_to": "<835489.23788.qm@web81403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was hoping I wasn't the only one needing out on that.\n\nRe: Gibson, I've only read Neuromancer sometime in the last ice age." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 6, 2010, at 10:40 AM, Stuart Hamm wrote:\nLove me some Ancient Aliens I do...anyone else read the new William Gibson? I love his writing and eye for detail and trends.... but about half of the way through it I discovered that I didn't really care about or even like the characters...\n\n \n \n \n\n\n--- On Mon, 12/6/10, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: (urth) Inire: Ancient Alien\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, December 6, 2010, 10:00 AM\n\nAll of this discussiion about Inire seems to have clicked him into place for me at least.\nOne myth I think about A LOT, in general, and in connection with BotNS, is the \"Ancient Aliens shaped humanity\" idea. Inire is, very literally, an \"ancient alien\" who has been shaping mankind. \nIn Zacharia Sitchin's interpretation, humans were modified from the hominid stock of earth to be more like the Annunaki. (sp?). If nothing else, Inire's description as ancient bent monkeylike cacogen seems to connect with this idea of modified hominid stock.\n\nI think that works well enough for me. I don't need to understand all the hidden machinations, but I do like to label the character archetype. It's pretty funny actually. Amidst all this recombination of classic myths we have a very contemporary one thrown in. Inire is the Ancient Alien.\n\nWe could go further and tie this to the Cummean and her lizardly ways. There is also the branch of Ancient Alien speculation that deals with all that David Icke Reptoids bullshit (which is hilariously entertaining if nothing else.) with it's human and reptilian hybrids.\n\nSpeaking of hilariously entertaining, does anyone else watch History Channel's Ancient Aliens series? I lurve that show. The recent one on all the new (2000's) discoveries of underwater megalithic structures over 10,000 years old all over the world was damn interesting. Such an entertainingly sensationalistic tabloid presentation of these ideas.\n\n~Witz\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFD8B57.9030304@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-07T01:18:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire: Ancient Alien", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And another sci-fi trope, put to good use by Wolfe, clicks into place!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/6/2010 1:00 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nAll of this discussiion about Inire seems to have clicked him into place for me at least.\nOne myth I think about A LOT, in general, and in connection with BotNS, is the \"Ancient Aliens shaped humanity\" idea. Inire is, very literally, an \"ancient alien\" who has been shaping mankind.\nIn Zacharia Sitchin's interpretation, humans were modified from the hominid stock of earth to be more like the Annunaki. (sp?). If nothing else, Inire's description as ancient bent monkeylike cacogen seems to connect with this idea of modified hominid stock.\n\nI think that works well enough for me. I don't need to understand all the hidden machinations, but I do like to label the character archetype. It's pretty funny actually. Amidst all this recombination of classic myths we have a very contemporary one thrown in. Inire is the Ancient Alien.\n\nWe could go further and tie this to the Cummean and her lizardly ways. There is also the branch of Ancient Alien speculation that deals with all that David Icke Reptoids bullshit (which is hilariously entertaining if nothing else.) with it's human and reptilian hybrids.\n\nSpeaking of hilariously entertaining, does anyone else watch History Channel's Ancient Aliens series? I lurve that show. The recent one on all the new (2000's) discoveries of underwater megalithic structures over 10,000 years old all over the world was damn interesting. Such an entertainingly sensationalistic tabloid presentation of these ideas.\n\n~Witz\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFD8C13.7020608@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-07T01:21:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "<4CFD3043.2090602@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a deep one, Jeff!\n\nAlexander was often shown with horns, if that hasn't been pointed out \nalready. And I forgot to mention his divinity was based on that of the \nPharaohs, and after him, of course, the Roman emperors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/6/2010 1:49 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 12/6/2010 11:39 AM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Until you said it, I hadn't realized that my vision of Typhon was \nAlexander. I drew him the other day and was compelled to put a laurel \nwreath on his head, which is totally inappropriate, but it came out \nthat way. Blonde hair and all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suppose this means dark-haired Piaton would be drawn with a grey \nforelock?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<193371.28068.qm@web81402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2010-12-07T01:22:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire: Ancient Alien", "in_reply_to": "<4CFD8B57.9030304@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just saw an ad for this week's new Ancient Aliens show is about Aliens being mistaken for Angels..or the other way around...hmm...Heirogramattes (sp?) anyone??\n\n???????? ? ? \n?Mobile — (415) 786-3624\nSTUHAMM.COM\nFACEBOOK/STUARTHAMM\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\nSkype? stuart.hamm\n? ?? \n\n\n--- On Mon, 12/6/10, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nSubject: Re: (urth) Inire: Ancient Alien\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, December 6, 2010, 5:18 PM\n\nAnd another sci-fi trope, put to good use by Wolfe, clicks into place!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/6/2010 1:00 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nAll of this discussiion about Inire seems to have clicked him into place for me at least.\nOne myth I think about A LOT, in general, and in connection with BotNS, is the \"Ancient Aliens shaped humanity\" idea. Inire is, very literally, an \"ancient alien\" who has been shaping mankind.\nIn Zacharia Sitchin's interpretation, humans were modified from the hominid stock of earth to be more like the Annunaki. (sp?). If nothing else, Inire's description as ancient bent monkeylike cacogen seems to connect with this idea of modified hominid stock.\n\nI think that works well enough for me. I don't need to understand all the hidden machinations, but I do like to label the character archetype. It's pretty funny actually. Amidst all this recombination of classic myths we have a very contemporary one thrown in. Inire is the Ancient Alien.\n\nWe could go further and tie this to the Cummean and her lizardly ways. There is also the branch of Ancient Alien speculation that deals with all that David Icke Reptoids bullshit (which is hilariously entertaining if nothing else.) with it's human and reptilian hybrids.\n\nSpeaking of hilariously entertaining, does anyone else watch History Channel's Ancient Aliens series? I lurve that show. The recent one on all the new (2000's) discoveries of underwater megalithic structures over 10,000 years old all over the world was damn interesting. Such an entertainingly sensationalistic tabloid presentation of these ideas.\n\n~Witz\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFDBBBE.5030100@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-07T04:44:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/6/2010 6:34 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: It is very Wolfean for Typhon to be patterned after Alexander. But saying that a similar\nlikeness of Tzadkiel and Inire to Alexadner's gods makes it believable that Inirie is his own legion of\nshape shifters who are never seen to change shape is as useful as saying it is believable that Wolfe implies\nthat Alexander was also a space tyrant, just one that was never seen to employ spaceships." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I see clues that Inire is patterned after Pan who could create his own legion of helpers. Why is this so\nmuch less plausible than a character patterned after Alexander? Are you suggesting WOlfe would never put\na pagan god into his stories?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's less plausible because Inire himself is already a created helper of \na higher power, intentionally less capable than his master(s) so that \nthey can spread their influence wider." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"as useful\" to whom? Do you mean useful to yourself or are you speaking for all Wolfe readers?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Useful to anyone who takes up Wolfe's challenge to solve the puzzles in \nhis stories." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I continue to find the adjective \"believeable\" an odd choice for a work of fiction. We may have different\nlevels of rigidity in our perception of the real world. But it is my opinion that our perceptions of fiction\nare best kept fluid and flexible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was not referring to the fictional content but to the process of the \nauthor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We never see Tzadkiel change shape either (only size). Do you have any skepticism that the succession of\ncreatures that Severian sees are all Tzadkiel? If you are 100% skeptical of various versions of Inire by\nthe absence of being shown the process, I'd think you'd be at least 50% skeptical of Tzadkiel's versions.\nI am curious as to your level of doubt regarding Inhumi shapeshifting. Also for Abaia, The Mother (on Blue)\nand Great Scylla. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "LS and SS will have to wait for after graduation.\n\nTzadkiel's shapeshifting is necessary to explain Tzadkiel's partition of \nthe fingerling, of the parallel existence of the tinkerbell, and of \nTzadkiel's copping to have been the apport and Zak with demonstrated \nknowledge of happenings from their viewpoint. Inire's alleged \nshape-shifting and duplication is not required to explain any of the \npuzzling passages in the Book, there are other explanations just as good \nand less improbable." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-07T12:44:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "<4CFDBBBE.5030100@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- Inire and the Cumaean are manufactured creatures or at least of manufactured race, \nlike the rest of the Yesodis. ..... They become bent with age as they struggle to exceed their parameters, \nbut that's it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIf this were the case I'd expect to see something in the text which reflects this. In the Cumaean I think\nthere may be a hint of weariness in her voice. But quite the opposite for Father Inire. We get two good \n\"looks\" at him, in the Domnina/mirrors episode and in his letter to Severian. In both cases he seems \nextremely lively, jovial and verbose. A lot more lively than Barbatus, Famulimus and Ossipago. \nNo hint of being worn down by his labors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...They have no need to split and change shape because they are made to order for their specific tasks handed \ndown by the likes of Tzadkiel...They're the underpeople, the replicants of Yesod, similar to the way the \nanimal-folk are the underpeople of the Commonwealth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYou make very strong statements of fact showing a vast degree of confidence in your own interpretation of the\nwords of this story. I am more cautious about such things but hey, nothing wrong with rock-solid self-esteem, eh?\n \nI might have some minor quibbles but I don't have huge objections to your theory. What I don't understand is why \nthis has to be the ONLY possible theory. why can't Wolfe be read on more than one level? \n \nYou have your alien-based theory which is fine. But why ignore the angelic nature of Tzadkiel's name and ignore \nthe hierarchial nature of angels and deny the possibility of fallen angel analogs? Why insist on only one \nlevel of interpretation of the text? The Jeff Wilson theory may be exactly what Gene Wolfe had in mind when\nhe wrote BotNS. But is it the only thing he had in mind? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFE6EE4.3010409@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-07T17:29:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/7/2010 6:44 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI might have some minor quibbles but I don't have huge objections to your theory. What I don't understand is why\nthis has to be the ONLY possible theory. why can't Wolfe be read on more than one level?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's one interpretation *per* *level* of the text. An unaging maid who \nsurvives decapitation can't be Severian's mother *and* a robot at the \nsame time in the same way. So I pick the robot for the literal \ninterpretation, and assign the mother identity to the more figurative, \nimmediate level of the subtext because other than children they have \nraised, people typically remember lost loved ones as remaining their \nsame age they saw them last, and of course they have the same name.\n\nWe can then construct from these bases an intuitional, mental step \nladder to reach up to the more high-falutin', plot foreshadowing, roast \nbeef buffet level of the executed mother-maid representing the Mother \nUrth who Severian must kill. But it's still really a robot in the tower \n(which is really a derelict rocket ship) on his day of elevation.\n\nLikewise, your mythopoeic symbol manipulations are a worthy pursuit for \npossible answers. But even if you find an irresistble resonance between \nSeverian and The King in Yellow or the Queen of Hearts, he's still \nwritten as the Man in Black and you're going to have a hard time \nconvincing me fuligin is really a chromatic tincture." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You have your alien-based theory which is fine. But why ignore the \nangelic nature of Tzadkiel's name and ignore\nthe hierarchial nature of angels and deny the possibility of fallen \nangel analogs?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's considerable middle ground between ignoring an idea and \nembracing it as literal gospel. Yesod is figuratively heaven, Tzadkiel \nis sorta-kinda an angel, and Inire and the Cumaean may have fallen from \nthe grace of their \"cousins\" by casting their lots in with Urthly \nhumanity. I suppose Inire being a able to be a Pannite anyone anywhere \nis a slightly fresher metaphor than being Argus Thousandeyed, but it's \ntoo good a solution - it threatens to half-solve all the mysteries in \nthe book with the same answer \"Inire did it\", and leave unanswerable \n\"why did he bother?\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-07T19:38:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "<4CFE6EE4.3010409@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why can't Wolfe be read on more than one level?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- It's one interpretation *per* *level* of the text." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI could accept that as a working principle. But then we have to discuss how many\nlevels of understanding there are. Severian is required to recite the 7 levels in\nregard to governance. I think the first and last are the same, so let's go for 6.\n \n1. Gothic space opera\n2. Religious-theological allegory\n3. Mythological allusion and analog\n4. Socio-political allegory (Peter Wright)\n5. Classic literature references\n6. Gene Wolfe autobiographical\n \nIn my view, a serious reader should try to understand the Sun Series at all six levels\nsimultaneously. When understanding at one level has gaps or vague areas it is valid to seek answers\nor gap fillers at the other levels. For example if the gothic space opera doesn't tell us who Severian's \nfamily members are it is possible we can infer answers from the other levels." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's considerable middle ground between ignoring an idea and embracing it as literal gospel. \nYesod is figuratively heaven, Tzadkiel is sorta-kinda an angel, and Inire and the Cumaean may \nhave fallen from the grace of their \"cousins\" by casting their lots in with Urthly humanity. \nI suppose Inire being a able to be a Pannite anyone anywhere is a slightly fresher metaphor \nthan being Argus Thousandeyed, but it's too good a solution - it threatens to half-solve all \nthe mysteries in the book with the same answer \"Inire did it\", and leave unanswerable \n\"why did he bother?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI could have written that paragraph myself, with the exception of the very last sentence clause. I never \npresent any portion of my theory without plenty of qualifiers to ensure that I see my ideas as possibilities.\nFood for thought. New perspectives. Additions without subtraction from what has come before.\n \nYou have criticized my Father Inire theory for being too global and now as \"too good a solution\"? WTF!\n \nWhen Roy called it my \"Grand Unified Theory\" I took it in the same spirit as Republicans and Tea Partiers\ncalling Obama \"The Messiah\". Ridicule via excessive praise. Is this also your intention?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From the gothic space opera perspective you see Inire and the Cumaean as being assigned tasks on Urth by an\nangelic boss. To me this doesn't ring true as what they are doing seems anything but angelic- perpetrating\nan endless war by playing both sides, necromancy, witchcraft, cloning, beautification via mutilation, \nanimal-human splicing, etc. So, I look to a different level for an explanation and I get one. It isn't THE \nanswer but it is AN answer. I am actually quite interested in alternate answers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, in my theory there are far-reaching possibilities of \"Inire did it\" explanations with varying degrees of\nsupport from the text, in my opinion. But each is a possibility only. And I certainly don't leave unanswered\nthe question- \"why did he bother\". I have recently posted my simple answer to that which is based on a\ngnostic (blend of mythology and religion) explanation.\n \nAs, mentioned to Gerry, I'm open to any questions at any level regarding my theory. I'll do my best to answer.\n \n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<607D5A69-9488-47DA-8096-8EE36B1E6460@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-07T19:56:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 7, 2010, at 11:38 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nAs, mentioned to Gerry, I'm open to any questions at any level regarding my theory. I'll do my best to answer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, If you've laid out the theory in one posting, I missed it. I expect you didn't put 6 years of work all in one post though. Either way, I, for one, don't have a clear idea of what your theory is. I think the various bits I've read are interesting. By the way, I cropped it, but it was a great post you just wrote, with the six levels of interpretation." } ] }, { "message_id": "<88946.41506.qm@web84103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-07T20:04:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "nice! It's actually a good idea to have a list like this, although I'd approach it a little differently, trying to emphasize the organizing principle. I'd make #1?\nGothic space opera/mythologizing of all science fiction cliches known to man\nOf course, there is an autobiographical aspect to this one as well, since Wolfe grew up on pulp. But I suspect it is #6 that would contain \"Wolfe's conversion to Catholicism.\"?\nor is that theory not yet accepted?\nAnd maybe allegory and allusion and referentiality should have purposes: the creation of myth, the creation of books from other books, etc. Also, I'd add \"book as universe/author as God.\"\n--- On Tue, 12/7/10, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nFrom: Lee Berman \nSubject: (urth) Father Inire Theory\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Tuesday, December 7, 2010, 2:38 PM\n\n1. Gothic space opera\n2. Religious-theological allegory\n3. Mythological allusion and analog\n4. Socio-political allegory (Peter Wright)\n5. Classic literature references\n6. Gene Wolfe autobiographical" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-07T20:53:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "<88946.41506.qm@web84103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son o'Witz:Well, If you've laid out the theory in one posting, I missed it. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I expect you didn't put 6 years of work all in one >post though. Either way, \nI, for one, don't have a clear idea of what your theory is. I think the various \nbits I've read are >interesting. By the way, I cropped it, but it was a great post \nyou just wrote, with the six levels of interpretation.\n \nThanks! Yeah, it is too sprawling to fit in one post I think. And since it is really just \na mental map for my own understanding it can be difficult to translate into a clear verbal \nschemata. Perhaps it works best for filling in gaps in Severian's family tree, outlining what \nI think is severian's family curse and explaining some of the weirdnesses of The Commonwealth, \nlike khaibits." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff- nice! It's actually a good idea to have a list like this, although I'd approach \nit a little differently, trying to emphasize the organizing principle. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThanks! Yeah, I just tossed the list together in just a few minutes to illustrate the ideal of maintaining\nmultiple perspectives. I figured others would divvy it up differently and I'd probably revise \nthe list myself given more time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the creation of myth" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nI think James Wynn is especially interested in this aspect." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"book as universe/author as God.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI LOVE this one. I think I could add it to the top of my list so that along with \"autobiography\", like \n\"attachment to the personage of the Monarch\" it represents both the lowest and highest levels.\n\n \n \n \n \n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<099D3961D6F3437584DFBEEEAF20BD96@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-07T23:20:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nWhy can't Wolfe be read on more than one level?\nJeff Wilson- It's one interpretation *per* *level* of the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I could accept that as a working principle. But then we have to discuss \nhow many\nlevels of understanding there are. Severian is required to recite the 7 \nlevels in\nregard to governance. I think the first and last are the same, so let's go \nfor 6.\n\n1. Gothic space opera\n2. Religious-theological allegory\n3. Mythological allusion and analog\n4. Socio-political allegory (Peter Wright)\n5. Classic literature references\n6. Gene Wolfe autobiographical\n\nIn my view, a serious reader should try to understand the Sun Series at \nall six levels\nsimultaneously. When understanding at one level has gaps or vague areas it \nis valid to seek answers\nor gap fillers at the other levels. For example if the gothic space opera \ndoesn't tell us who Severian's\nfamily members are it is possible we can infer answers from the other \nlevels." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a nice conception and I believe it has some validity, but I also see \nsome issues with it.\n\nThree quarters of a century ago, no self-respecting critic would have failed \nto add Freudian psychoanalysis to the list. And they would have produced \ncomplex and elaborate interpretational structures. Some of it might mirror \nthe Severian-incest theories that appear, although the major thrust would \ncertainly have involved getting Severian in bed with his mother, rather than \nhis sister or his gran. And I think it's rather clear who his father must \nbe.\n\nA chess fanatic might construct an interpretational structure in which \ncharacters and events are pieces and moves in a chess game. Logically, \nthere must be *some* optimum game most compatible with the text, though to \nfind it might involve obscure chains of references.\n\nWe could think of others. But to what extent do these interpretations exist \nin the text, rather in in the personal mythologies of its interlocutors?\n\nAnd to what extent is the text overloaded with compatible meanings in 6, 7, \nor 8 levels? When you ask that question, doesn't it seem that 6 is already \nfar too many levels for the text to support in a strong sense?\n\nNow I can certainly agree that categories 1, 2, 3 and 5 at minimum exist to \na substantial degree in the text. But I don't think that 2 and 3 exist in \nsuch a precise form that they can answer detail questions that belong in the \nrealm of 1. Examples of 5 don't really need to have global significance for \nthe text at all. I'm mostly talking about 2 and 3 here.\n\nI think 2 and 3 can be used to add force to events in 1, but I don't think \nthey can fill gaps in 1 with regard to concrete events (maybe they could \nfill gaps with regard to motivations etc.)..Where I think some of the \ntheories I consider fanciful go wrong is that they try to expand realms 2 \nand 3 into a substitutte or alternative for 1. But since the detail text is \nnearly all 1, the expansions are flimsy and contradictory because they are \nbased on stuff that is mostly supplied by the reader, and a different \nreader, or the same reader at a different time, could supply a completely \ndifferent expansion.\n\nI haven't the slightest difficulty with people coming up with \ninterpretations based on thin references.. _I_ didn't make a post called \n\"Who's Right?\", or refer to 'Lupine Gospel'. But I think when such \ninterpretations are proposed as a map for understanding 1, the actual story, \nthey should be compared against known points of reference to see whether \nthey actually represent an alternative, or merely have some points of \nresemblance.\n\nIt may be that a less elaborate theory, pointing out similarities and \nregerences, might map more usefully than a theory that tries to re-tell the \nentire story in its own terms.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-11T18:40:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "<099D3961D6F3437584DFBEEEAF20BD96@jill>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn- I wonder if my differences with Lee and James are in \npart due to us looking for puzzle solutions in different places? They look \nfor allusions, I look at descriptions and events in the story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nVery insightful! It is such an apt analysis you needn't even qualify it with\n\"in part\". The Meyers-Briggs assessment that has been discussed would describe \nyou as a Sensory (S) type as opposed to an Intuitive (N) type.\n \nOne thing- S types, especially males, tend to be focused on non-human nuts and bolts\ntype of things and ignore the human side of things. N-types are more likely to be\naware of the humanity which colors every part of our experience. Thus, Gerry, you are\nso quick to dismiss ideas and concepts you cannot see as \"unlikely\", blithely unaware \nthat you are dismissing a human being and his/her intelligence and hours of involved \nthought and writing. \n \nI know that I am a bit weak on Sensory skills. I don't care much about the height of\nthe Wall of Nessus or the distance between Blue and Green. But I respect those who do\nand I defer to them as better experts in solving such puzzles. Perhaps you could be more\nrespectful of those who are better at solving the human/word puzzles than you. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-11T19:29:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn- I wonder if my differences with Lee and James are in\npart due to us looking for puzzle solutions in different places? They \nlook\nfor allusions, I look at descriptions and events in the story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Very insightful! It is such an apt analysis you needn't even qualify it \nwith\n\"in part\". The Meyers-Briggs assessment that has been discussed would \ndescribe\nyou as a Sensory (S) type as opposed to an Intuitive (N) type." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are making an intuitive leap based on a single fact that, leading to a \nconclusion that is without foundation. When I tested myself on this once or \ntwice some years ago, I came out INTJ (and the J was not all that much \nstronger than the P, by the way; I can't remember how much stronger the N \nwas than the S). But I can see where David's comment about Ps vs. Js can be \nrelevant in the context of how much one is inclined to criticise speculative \ntheories.\n\nMy comment above is not related to personality types, however. It does \nrelate to a different emphasis on where to find understanding of a story by \nGene Wolfe. In my opinion some people see a mystery, spot an allusion or \nsomething that they think might somehow be associated, and then go on to \nbuild complicated castles of speculation whose relationship with the text \nmay be tenuous. Whereas I think the solution is likely to be there in plain \ndescription; classical and allusions may be present to give it depth and \nhint at the way, but if something is not present in the narrative, no amount \nof strained analysis of allusion will make it appear." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One thing- S types, especially males, tend to be focused on non-human nuts \nand bolts\ntype of things and ignore the human side of things. N-types are more \nlikely to be\naware of the humanity which colors every part of our experience. Thus, \nGerry, you are\nso quick to dismiss ideas and concepts you cannot see as \"unlikely\", \nblithely unaware\nthat you are dismissing a human being and his/her intelligence and hours \nof involved\nthought and writing.\n\nI know that I am a bit weak on Sensory skills. I don't care much about the \nheight of\nthe Wall of Nessus or the distance between Blue and Green. But I respect \nthose who do\nand I defer to them as better experts in solving such puzzles. Perhaps you \ncould be more\nrespectful of those who are better at solving the human/word puzzles than \nyou." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think your post is a good example of what I disapprove of in your \nmethology (criticism if your ideas is *not* disapproval of you personally). \nYou snatch at one fact (my statement that when analysing Wolfe's stories I \nlook to events and description more than allusions), instantly psychoanalyse \nme that basis, and reach a comforting (and patronising) explanation of why I \ncan't see the validity of your assertions about the true meaning of BotNS. \nBecause, Heaven forfend, it couldn't be that I might actually have a point \nin questioning whether your theories stray too far from what may plausibly \nbe supported by the text!\n\nI am not dismissing the work and thought you have put into these matters, \nand perhaps I have been remiss in not making that clear hitherto. Nor do I \ndispute that insight can come from following such lines of inquiry. At the \nsame time I believe that, while literary criticism is not science or \nmathematics, lines of enquiry that seem promising can still - like \nscientific models or mathematical theorems - turn out to be wrong, and the \nonly way to find out is to challenge them. Even if they don't work out they \nmay still very often (in all the fields mentioned) yield useful insights \nthat will help towards a more complete understanding. And partial \nvalidations of this kind are better in my opinion than castles in the air \nthat one is not permitted to criticise.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Brian Lovely", "address": "brian at studiobl.com" }, "date": "2010-12-14T03:24:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An interesting thing about the multiple Father Inire theory is that multiplicity has been used as a sort of failsafe technique at least two other places in the books. Typhon/Pas squirrels his two-headed self away for a better day (literally--a repaired sun), but also sends out a generation starship just in case. ...and Severian of the five coffins.\n\nBrian Lovely" } ] } ] }