{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5802", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5802, "subject": "Ouen and Dorcas", "messages": 46, "voices": 10, "first": "2010-12-04T18:30:54+00:00", "last": "2010-12-07T21:29:31+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-04T18:30:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nEither way, Dorcas will probably end up living with her son Ouen, whom Severian has assigned to\nseek her out. He is twice her age but she will probably be attracted to his kind, gentle nature\nand he to her for obvious reasons. (\"ewwww\")." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ouen _knows_ that Dorcas is his mother - or at least he has the means\neasily to work it out; he knows his mother's name, he has her picture,\nSeverian sends him to her immediately after quizzing him about his\nmother. His situation is quite different from Severian's when he met\nher." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-04T20:02:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 4, 2010, at 1:30 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nLee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Either way, Dorcas will probably end up living with her son Ouen, whom Severian has assigned to\nseek her out. He is twice her age but she will probably be attracted to his kind, gentle nature\nand he to her for obvious reasons. (\"ewwww\")." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ouen _knows_ that Dorcas is his mother - or at least he has the means\neasily to work it out; he knows his mother's name, he has her picture,\nSeverian sends him to her immediately after quizzing him about his\nmother. His situation is quite different from Severian's when he met\nher." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Can I point out one other time issue?\n\nIf the old boatman (in his 70's?) is looking for his wife, Dorcas, who is mid-to-late-teens when resurrected. That would suggest at least fifty years have passed since she died, thereabouts.\n\nWouldn't Ouen, her son, be in his fifties then? I seem to recall he is more in his twenties or thirties.\n\nJust asking whether I may have missed a description or two. If that cannot be reconciled, then we have to assume the boatman was indeed likely in his thirties or forties when he hooked it up with 'Cas.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002301cb93f6$dcbb6e60$9dce4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-12-04T21:04:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nIf the old boatman (in his 70's?) is looking for his wife, Dorcas, who is\nmid-to-late-teens when resurrected. That would suggest at least fifty years\nhave passed since she died, thereabouts.<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He had been searching for her body for \"forty years\". (SHADOW. chap. XXII)\nOuen is about forty-two.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFC5666.10100@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T03:20:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "<002301cb93f6$dcbb6e60$9dce4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 04/12/10 21:04, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nRyan Dunn wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If the old boatman (in his 70's?) is looking for his wife, Dorcas, who is\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "mid-to-late-teens when resurrected. That would suggest at least fifty years\nhave passed since she died, thereabouts.<\n\nHe had been searching for her body for \"forty years\". (SHADOW. chap. XXII)\nOuen is about forty-two.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I concur. Also, it is deducible from the text (Dorcas remembers going to \nbuy clothes for her child, remembers looking after a child and so forth) \nthat if Dorcas died in childbirth, as is usually assumed, it was in \nbearing her *second* child, ie. Ouen's sibling.\n\nWhat I can't remember right now is whether there is much textual \nevidence that Dorcas did in fact die in childbirth. All the old boatman \ntells us is that they'd been married four or five years, then 'Cas died. \nIt's entirely possible she died of other natural causes when Ouen was a \ntoddler.\n\nBut if she did die in childbirth, Ouen was two or three years old at the \ntime, which would indeed make him forty-two/three when Sev sends him \nback to find his mother in Oldgate. But there's no information about \nwhat might have happened to any theoretical sibling. Are we to \nunderstand that the second child died with his/her mother? Or is there \nanyone around who might be identified as Severian's paternal uncle or \naunt? I think Borski had a theory on this, but without my books to hand \nI can't remember what this theory was alas, and it's far too late right \nnow for me to come up with any fresh suggestion.\n\nbe interested to know if anyone else has any ideas on this though.\n\ncheers\n\njd" } ] }, { "message_id": "<004001cb9518$27e27f60$b1d04a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-12-06T07:35:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "<4CFC5666.10100@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jane Delawney quoted and wrote:\nHe had been searching for her body for \"forty years\". (SHADOW. chap." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "XXII)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ouen is about forty-two." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I concur. Also, it is deducible from the text (Dorcas remembers going to\nbuy clothes for her child, remembers looking after a child and so forth)\nthat if Dorcas died in childbirth, as is usually assumed, it was in\nbearing her *second* child, ie. Ouen's sibling.\n\nWhat I can't remember right now is whether there is much textual\nevidence that Dorcas did in fact die in childbirth. All the old boatman\ntells us is that they'd been married four or five years, then 'Cas died.\nIt's entirely possible she died of other natural causes when Ouen was a\ntoddler." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was Ouen who said that she died in childbirth, which is what his father\nhad told him (CITADEL, XXXVII). But the text is otherwise silent on the\nsubject of a second child. Ouen knew what his mother looked like from the\npicture of her he had, but he was probably too young when she died to have\nactually remembered her.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFCA903.8050707@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T09:12:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "<4CFC5666.10100@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/5/2010 9:20 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:\nbe interested to know if anyone else has any ideas on this though." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dorcas' physical description upon being found at the lake does not seem \nto agree with her having died in the act of childbirth, and the \nspeculation on her parity prompted by the note also suggests she has no \nreadily visible signs like stretch marks to settle the matter. She's \notherwise rather slender, so I'm skeptical she could have lived long \nenough to recover her non-pregnant physique and still die from childbed \nfever or other birth complications." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T11:00:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "<4CFCA903.8050707@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ouen: I never knew her, sieur. Cas they called her, but she died when I was young.\nin childbirth, my father said." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nBorski takes this to imply that Dorcas had a pregnancy and birth after Ouen. I agree\nthat it is a strange (though not impossible) turn of phrase to refer to one's self at\nbirth as \"young\". I would express it as \"she died when I was born\".\n \nI, personally, consider Severian's grandfather to be a great deceiver so I don't take\na lot of stock in the exact wording of anything he says." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jane Delawney: Dorcas remembers going to buy clothes for her child, remembers looking \nafter a child and so forth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nDorcas has a dream in which she is shopping for, \"tiny clothes\", holding her hands half\na span apart. \"Doll's clothing, perhaps\". A greek span is the distance from the thumb to\nthe pinky of a hand with splayed fingers. Half that would be too small for any born\nchild to wear. I'm more inclined to interpret this dream as a metaphor for shopping for\nbaby clothes while she is pregnant. I don't remember a memory of her looking after a child\nbut I could be mistaken.\n \nDorcas says: \"I have to go back and find out who I was and where I lived and what happened\nto me....\"...\"My child may still be alive- an old man, perhaps, but still alive. I have to \nknow.\"\n \nShe doesn't say \"children\" so I think her own sense is of having only one child. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- Dorcas' physical description upon being found at the lake does not seem \nto agree with her having died in the act of childbirth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI agree with this. On the other hand, Dorcas says, \"I was dead, a shrunken corpse preserved\nin the brown water.\" She guesses that the Claw works by shifting time. If correct I suppose\nthere is no reason it would have to work to shift her body to her moment of death. Her body\ncould be shifted to a time/condition before her death, perhaps even before her pregnancy.\n \nI don't think the text is silent on the subject of a second child but spread across a couple\nbooks and vague and perhaps conflicting. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFCD7AD.2090609@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-06T12:31:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have noticed this as well, but in a society in which quantification is \nnot precise, and a mother can die several days after giving birth, this \nmay be exactly correct as far as Ouen knows.\n\nHowever, if this were a Gothic mystery, we would assume the father was \nat least hiding something to protect his son---such as, she killed \nherself some time during Ouen's first year. Most people raised on such \nhalf-truths would not question such a small discrepancy.\n\nWhat else could this hide?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 12/6/2010 6:00 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nOuen: I never knew her, sieur. Cas they called her, but she died when I was young.\nin childbirth, my father said." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Borski takes this to imply that Dorcas had a pregnancy and birth after Ouen. I agree\nthat it is a strange (though not impossible) turn of phrase to refer to one's self at\nbirth as \"young\". I would express it as \"she died when I was born\"." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T12:51:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "<4CFCD7AD.2090609@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff- However, if this were a Gothic mystery, we would assume the father was \nat least hiding something to protect his son---such as, she killed herself some time during \nOuen's first year. Most people raised on such half-truths would not question such a small discrepancy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI can agree with your thinking. Moreover if we parse Ouen's statement more tightly:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ouen: I never knew her, sieur. Cas they called her, but she died when I was young.\nin childbirth, my father said." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nwe could infer that Ouen finds the name \"Cas\" and \"died when I was young\" to be fact but\n\"in childbirth\" to be in question; that part described as his father's words only.\n \nIf so, I concur with Ouen that his father, the boat guy on the Lake of Birds, is a deceiver, not\nto be believed at face value." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What else could this hide?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What indeed.\n \n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFCDDC5.1090300@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-06T12:57:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just saw Roy's calculation that Ouen would have been about 2 years old \nwhen Dorcas died, which means at least 1. That would rule out any \n\"normal\" childbirth fatality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/6/2010 7:51 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff- However, if this were a Gothic mystery, we would assume the father was\nat least hiding something to protect his son---such as, she killed herself some time during\nOuen's first year. Most people raised on such half-truths would not question such a small discrepancy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can agree with your thinking. Moreover if we parse Ouen's statement more tightly:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ouen: I never knew her, sieur. Cas they called her, but she died when I was young.\nin childbirth, my father said." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "we could infer that Ouen finds the name \"Cas\" and \"died when I was young\" to be fact but\n\"in childbirth\" to be in question; that part described as his father's words only.\n\nIf so, I concur with Ouen that his father, the boat guy on the Lake of Birds, is a deceiver, not\nto be believed at face value." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What else could this hide?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What indeed.\n\n\n \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFCEC05.701@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T13:58:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "<4CFCDDC5.1090300@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (06-12-2010 12:57):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I just saw Roy's calculation that Ouen would have been about 2 years old\nwhen Dorcas died, which means at least 1. That would rule out any\n\"normal\" childbirth fatality." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We're told Ouen is 42 and the boatman had been lookign for Dorcas for 40 \nyears. 2 years is too small a margin to draw any conclusions. He doesn't \neven say he started looking for her corpse right away." } ] }, { "message_id": "<7CBAAC05-47C5-4675-8EF3-0CCA03CE62A0@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T14:42:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "<4CFCDDC5.1090300@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also, makes his assertion of Dorcas being his mother strictly derived from photograph, and under the assumption that he and his father have a relationship enough that Ouen would have a locket, though it COULD have been left with him as a baby.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 6, 2010, at 7:57 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI just saw Roy's calculation that Ouen would have been about 2 years old when Dorcas died, which means at least 1. That would rule out any \"normal\" childbirth fatality." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T15:08:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "<7CBAAC05-47C5-4675-8EF3-0CCA03CE62A0@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn- Also, makes his assertion of Dorcas being his mother strictly derived from photograph, \nand under the assumption that he and his father have a relationship enough that Ouen would have a locket, \nthough it COULD have been left with him as a baby." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIIRC, Ouen says his father had a problem with holding onto material possessions (FWIW a trait shared by\nFechin). He had to get the locket out of hock, to get it back.\n \n(this might relate to my Father Inire theory. The cult of Pan/Dionysus urges a rejection of material\npossessions in favor of internal peace and harmony with nature. Gnosticism also demonizes materialism,\nincluding the demiurge who created our material world.) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<25AA7DD8-7CDF-4936-8188-7AD0A745A869@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T15:20:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Depends on whether you believe the boatman to be Inire or one of his servants. If Severian is a Chosen One, and the Choosers want to raise him as an orphan, in a Guild of Torturers, then the breeding of the parents may have had to have been controlled.\n\nI recently asked Gene whether BotNS could be interpreted/read as a Pinnochio story, were Pinnochio to have been told from the puppet's POV. Gene said he hadn't thought of it that way, but that it probably could. He also confessed he had never actually read Pinnochio, only viewed the Disney film.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Dec 6, 2010, at 7:51 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nOuen: I never knew her, sieur. Cas they called her, but she died when I was young.\nin childbirth, my father said." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "we could infer that Ouen finds the name \"Cas\" and \"died when I was young\" to be fact but\n\"in childbirth\" to be in question; that part described as his father's words only.\n\nIf so, I concur with Ouen that his father, the boat guy on the Lake of Birds, is a deceiver, not\nto be believed at face value." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What else could this hide?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What indeed." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T15:52:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "<25AA7DD8-7CDF-4936-8188-7AD0A745A869@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn: I recently asked Gene whether BotNS could be interpreted/read as a Pinnochio story, \nwere Pinnochio to have been told from the puppet's POV. Gene said he hadn't thought of it that way, \nbut that it probably could. He also confessed he had never actually read Pinnochio, only viewed the \nDisney film." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThis is a bizarrely coincidental post given James' recent entry. Had you seen the post below, Ryan?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: Significantly, there are puppet references associated with Horn. Shortly \nafter leaving home, he is attacked by a leatherskin, a creature with three jaws. It is Pinocchio's \n\"dog fish\" (\"Monstro\" the whale in the Disney movie) that has three jaws. Earlier he relates a story \nfrom Horn's childhood about a puppet he had." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI'm starting to feel like a puppet myself. \n \nHow are you guys able to correspond with Gene Wolfe? I've never tried and I wonder if I'd have the nerve \nif I had the means. But I'm curious how it is done. Is paper mail preferred, perhaps?\n \n \nI especially like one bit of information from your post Ryan. I've long suspected Gene Wolfe occasionally \ndraws from popular culture and not only from classic mythology and literature. I hesitate to confess that \nI think a certain character from silly TV is the inspiration for Jolenta more than Marilyn Monroe, as Mantis \nand (I think) Borski have proposed. The red hair, the big green eyes, the buxom figure, the bored, languorous \ndemeanor, her effect on the men, these all remind me of Tina Louise, aka Ginger, from Gilligan's Island. Of \ncourse, for men in the audience there is a near-unanimous preference for the other girl on the island, \nsweet, natural Mary Ann. Dr. Talos admires Severian for preferring the other woman in the troupe, Dorcas.\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFD0F02.90003@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T16:27:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (06-12-2010 15:08):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "IIRC, Ouen says his father had a problem with holding onto material\npossessions (FWIW a trait shared by Fechin)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that would explain his not letting go of Dorcas's body.\n\nNo one ever discussed the similarity between the names Dorcas and Casdoe? \n(Not to mention that the boatman only talks about Cas, is it Cas- or -cas?)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<19FA4416-A39E-46ED-84A8-6A118CD3FB54@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-06T17:25:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "<4CFCA903.8050707@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 6, 2010, at 1:12 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 12/5/2010 9:20 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "be interested to know if anyone else has any ideas on this though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dorcas' physical description upon being found at the lake does not seem to agree with her having died in the act of childbirth, and the speculation on her parity prompted by the note also suggests she has no readily visible signs like stretch marks to settle the matter. She's otherwise rather slender, so I'm skeptical she could have lived long enough to recover her non-pregnant physique and still die from childbed fever or other birth complications.\n\n-- " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmm. I doubt Severian would know what stretch marks were.\nI've also known women who bounce right back from childbirth to being slender, even without effort. Crazy, I know, but I've seen it. She might also have been malnourished and underweight in the pregancy. I'm surprised everyone sees her so young. I've always thought 18-23 range suited her." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFD1DDB.8070505@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T17:31:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "<19FA4416-A39E-46ED-84A8-6A118CD3FB54@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Son of Witz wrote (06-12-2010 17:25):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 6, 2010, at 1:12 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/5/2010 9:20 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "be interested to know if anyone else has any ideas on this though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dorcas' physical description upon being found at the lake does not seem\nto agree with her having died in the act of childbirth, and the\nspeculation on her parity prompted by the note also suggests she has no\nreadily visible signs like stretch marks to settle the matter. She's\notherwise rather slender, so I'm skeptical she could have lived long\nenough to recover her non-pregnant physique and still die from childbed\nfever or other birth complications." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmm. I doubt Severian would know what stretch marks were. I've also\nknown women who bounce right back from childbirth to being slender, even\nwithout effort. Crazy, I know, but I've seen it. She might also have been\nmalnourished and underweight in the pregancy. I'm surprised everyone sees\nher so young. I've always thought 18-23 range suited her." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She needn't have been resurrected in exactly the same physical shape she\ndied in. Yes, Severian keeps his scars and lameness, but it needn't be that way." } ] }, { "message_id": "<133602CC-54D6-498C-A880-9528D44EBAB1@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T17:47:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Dec 6, 2010, at 10:52 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nRyan Dunn: I recently asked Gene whether BotNS could be interpreted/read as a Pinnochio story, \nwere Pinnochio to have been told from the puppet's POV. Gene said he hadn't thought of it that way, \nbut that it probably could. He also confessed he had never actually read Pinnochio, only viewed the \nDisney film." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is a bizarrely coincidental post given James' recent entry. Had you seen the post below, Ryan?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well considering I mentioned my opinion about BotNS being a Pinnochio tale from his POV last week, I guess the coincidence would be that James and I were thinking along the same lines.\n\nRegarding how I correspond with Gene, well he and I were neighbors for five years, so we have a loose back-and-forth. I try not to prod him with underhanded sneak questions too often, and he let's me have it when I do, so I get better responses when I tell him if the question isn't loaded or backhanded.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T18:05:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "<133602CC-54D6-498C-A880-9528D44EBAB1@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques- Well, that would explain his not letting go of Dorcas's body." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nOuen makes the statement in regard to a locket and perhaps some other items, maybe a\nhairbrush and mirror (sorry I have not got the text with me). I guess a corpse could be\nconstrued as a material object. But not so much if there was a plan for it to be resurrected.\n \nI urge you to be skeptical regarding the words of the Boatman. He says he has been searching\nunsuccessfully for his wife's body for decades. Yet, of all the thousands of bodies Severian might\nhave resurrected he manages to resurrect Cas. I suspect he knows exactly where her body lies. As\ndoes the undine in the water who steers it to Severian and also hands him his sword back." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No one ever discussed the similarity between the names Dorcas and Casdoe? \n(Not to mention that the boatman only talks about Cas, is it Cas- or -cas?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, he couldn't very well call her \"Dorcas\". That would ruin the surprise at the end of the story.\nEven calling her \"Dor\" would have given away too much. \"Cas\" is a nice disguise for Dorcas in English\nwhere stress is usually on the first syllable. \n \nBorski has a a rather in depth discussion about a naming connection between Dorcas and Casdoe. I think\nhe related it to the trend of birthing twins in a family. I think he added in the name called out on the\nSanguinary Fields also, \"Cadroe of the 17 stones\", tossing the 17 Megatherians and their black bean\norigins into the mix.\n\nAn interesting discussion but it didn't inspire any gestalt pattern recognition for me, in the manner of\nCatherine/Holy Katharine, Typhon/Alexander and Inire/Pan-Dionysus. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<69019275-5289-4EDA-BCB0-11FC0FA5B4BB@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-06T18:15:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 6, 2010, at 10:05 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nWell, he couldn't very well call her \"Dorcas\". That would ruin the surprise at the end of the story.\nEven calling her \"Dor\" would have given away too much. \"Cas\" is a nice disguise for Dorcas in English\nwhere stress is usually on the first syllable." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Surprise? I thought this was the one place where Wolfe was too obvious, but by then I'd figured out that the chapter titles are clues. The boatman looking for Cas is in the chapter titled \" Dorcas\" but we don't meet Dorcas til the next chapter \"Hildegrin\". I was never surprised that Dorcas was the boatman's Cas resurrected, and I'm REALLY dense when it comes to solving mysteries." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFD292D.3090803@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T18:19:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "<4CFCD7AD.2090609@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/6/2010 6:31 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI have noticed this as well, but in a society in which quantification is\nnot precise, and a mother can die several days after giving birth, this\nmay be exactly correct as far as Ouen knows.\n\nHowever, if this were a Gothic mystery, we would assume the father was\nat least hiding something to protect his son---such as, she killed\nherself some time during Ouen's first year. Most people raised on such\nhalf-truths would not question such a small discrepancy.\n\nWhat else could this hide?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The boatman's story about her eyes opening as she is dropped in suggests \nhe has some anxiety that she was still alive somehow. This might mean \nthat she died mysteriously with no marks, or that she happened to die \nwhile he was out from some lingering, markless cause and he is wracked \nwith guilt that his neglect did her in and desperately hopes that she is \njust doing the Madeline Usher so he can be forgiven.\n\nThis would make him still a deceiver, but a more human self-deceiver \nabove all. And if she simply never regained her full health after Ouen's \ndifficult birth, the \"in childbirth\" lie keeps to the Book's theme of \nliars revealing the truth despite themselves, and would explain why the \nClaw would rewind her to pre-parity." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T18:31:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "<4CFD292D.3090803@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marquez wrote:\nNo one ever discussed the similarity between the names Dorcas and Casdoe?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It has been discussed, I think. That there is some connection - thus\nmaking little Severian a relation of Big Severian - is not at all\nimprobable. There is some slight evidence that Dorcas's family came\nfrom the north - she remembers someone in childhood telling her about\nthe blood bats in the north. So Casdoe might be her niece, for\ninstance, named in honour of her aunt 'Cas'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(Not to mention that the boatman only talks about Cas, is it Cas- or -cas?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think we know it's -cas, because Ouen says his mother was called\nCas, but the picture he has is of Dorcas. Also - though this is a clue\nonly for us, the readers, not for Severian - the chapter in which the\nold boatman talks about his wife is called 'Dorcas', although that\nname is mentioned nowhere in it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\nI'm surprised everyone sees her so young. I've always thought 18-23 range suited her." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The estimate of her age comes from Agia. It may well be, though, that\nAgia is guessing wrong, or perhaps deliberately editing Dorcas's age\ndownward to make her less attractive to Severian." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T18:34:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 6, 2010, at 1:31 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nI think we know it's -cas, because Ouen says his mother was called\nCas, but the picture he has is of Dorcas. Also - though this is a clue\nonly for us, the readers, not for Severian - the chapter in which the\nold boatman talks about his wife is called 'Dorcas', although that\nname is mentioned nowhere in it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do we know whether Severian titled the chapters of his own tome? I had never thought of that.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFD2F25.6010106@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T18:44:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "<19FA4416-A39E-46ED-84A8-6A118CD3FB54@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/6/2010 11:25 AM, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nOn Dec 6, 2010, at 1:12 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/5/2010 9:20 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "be interested to know if anyone else has any ideas on this though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dorcas' physical description upon being found at the lake does not seem to agree with her having died in the act of childbirth, and the speculation on her parity prompted by the note also suggests she has no readily visible signs like stretch marks to settle the matter. She's otherwise rather slender, so I'm skeptical she could have lived long enough to recover her non-pregnant physique and still die from childbed fever or other birth complications.\n\n--" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmm. I doubt Severian would know what stretch marks were." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The business about opening pregnant women (presumably post mortem) to \ntake the children would give him some plausible exposure to the \nappearance of pregnancy if not post-partum presentation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've also\nknown women who bounce right back from childbirth to being slender,\neven without effort." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How fast is \"right back?\" My mother's oldest sister was a slender woman \nwho gained only the birthweight + placenta of her 6lb second child. She \ntook 3-4 weeks to redistribute which is very fast as that goes, but very \nlong in terms of childbirth complications." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crazy, I know, but I've seen it. She might also\nhave been malnourished and underweight in the pregancy. I'm surprised\neveryone sees her so young. I've always thought 18-23 range suited\nher." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Same here, although her amnesia has restored a child-like innocence \nmaking her seem younger." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<21C71EAE81C747188E21D6B2DAF14668@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-06T21:01:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Ryan Dunn\" \nDo we know whether Severian titled the chapters of his own tome? I had \nnever thought of that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's a tricky question IMO. Logically you'd expect that Severian titled the \nchapters, but somehow chapter titles don't feel like they are so strongly in \nthe narrator's voice. Still, I'm prepared to believe they are Severians. \nPerhaps it doesn't tell us much anyway, as he wrote the book long afterwards \nand presumably figured out who the boatman was talking about,\n\nEven more problematic for me are the character lists at the start of the \nLong and Short Sun books. Logically, again, these should have been written \nby Horn, but I find it hard not to look for Gene Wolfe's voice there.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFD8AC3.1090708@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-07T01:15:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "<21C71EAE81C747188E21D6B2DAF14668@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It had to be the translator---who usually functions as an editor---who \nintroduced the titles and, obviously, the epigraphs.\n\nNot Severian. Some guy named G.W." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/6/2010 4:01 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Ryan Dunn\" \nDo we know whether Severian titled the chapters of his own tome? I \nhad never thought of that.\n\nIt's a tricky question IMO. Logically you'd expect that Severian \ntitled the chapters, but somehow chapter titles don't feel like they \nare so strongly in the narrator's voice. Still, I'm prepared to \nbelieve they are Severians. Perhaps it doesn't tell us much anyway, as \nhe wrote the book long afterwards and presumably figured out who the \nboatman was talking about,\n\nEven more problematic for me are the character lists at the start of \nthe Long and Short Sun books. Logically, again, these should have \nbeen written by Horn, but I find it hard not to look for Gene Wolfe's \nvoice there.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFD8C2C.1050600@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-07T01:21:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "<4CFD8AC3.1090708@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nIt had to be the translator---who usually functions as an editor---who\nintroduced the titles and, obviously, the epigraphs.\n\nNot Severian. Some guy named G.W." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think I may have seen that name somewhere in the Book of the New Sun's \nappendices." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-07T01:22:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "<4CFD8AC3.1090708@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 6, 2010, at 8:15 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nIt had to be the translator---who usually functions as an editor---who introduced the titles and, obviously, the epigraphs.\n\nNot Severian. Some guy named G.W.\n\nOn 12/6/2010 4:01 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Ryan Dunn\" \nDo we know whether Severian titled the chapters of his own tome? I had never thought of that.\n\nIt's a tricky question IMO. Logically you'd expect that Severian titled the chapters, but somehow chapter titles don't feel like they are so strongly in the narrator's voice. Still, I'm prepared to believe they are Severians. Perhaps it doesn't tell us much anyway, as he wrote the book long afterwards and presumably figured out who the boatman was talking about,\n\nEven more problematic for me are the character lists at the start of the Long and Short Sun books. Logically, again, these should have been written by Horn, but I find it hard not to look for Gene Wolfe's voice there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David,\n\nWhy couldn't the author (Severian) have written them in, and the translator (G.W.) have translated the breaks?\n\nNot saying one is right and one is wrong, but what makes you think it \"had to be the translator\"? I ask out of genuine curiosity.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFD8E19.7090102@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-07T01:30:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nWhy couldn't the author (Severian) have written them in, and the\ntranslator (G.W.) have translated the breaks?\n\nNot saying one is right and one is wrong, but what makes you think it\n\"had to be the translator\"? I ask out of genuine curiosity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think there are precendents of editors of that kind of stories doing just \nthat kind of thing.\n\nOf course Severian _could_ have done it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFD8EFF.2060405@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-07T01:33:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry---I wasn't clear. I'm just saying that's how it's done in \ntranslated editions of a work in another language. Wolfe would stick \nclosely to the form he is aping (parodying? at least having fun with).\n\nSame with Latro's scroll. If you see a translation of Egyptian or \nTibetan or something that clearly doesn't follow Western \ntraditions---even Greek or old Norse or what have you---you will see \nchapter headings and other breaks that were entirely introduced by the \ntranslator, functioning as an editor, who is taking control and \nownership (almost) of the work. They are constructions imposed upon the \ntext for the convenience of the modern reader.\n\nAlso, the epigraphs give it away---Severian has never heard of Kipling." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/6/2010 8:22 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nOn Dec 6, 2010, at 8:15 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It had to be the translator---who usually functions as an \neditor---who introduced the titles and, obviously, the epigraphs.\n\nNot Severian. Some guy named G.W.\n\nOn 12/6/2010 4:01 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: \"Ryan Dunn\" >\nDo we know whether Severian titled the chapters of his own tome? I \nhad never thought of that.\n\nIt's a tricky question IMO. Logically you'd expect that Severian \ntitled the chapters, but somehow chapter titles don't feel like they \nare so strongly in the narrator's voice. Still, I'm prepared to \nbelieve they are Severians. Perhaps it doesn't tell us much anyway, \nas he wrote the book long afterwards and presumably figured out who \nthe boatman was talking about,\n\nEven more problematic for me are the character lists at the start of \nthe Long and Short Sun books. Logically, again, these should have \nbeen written by Horn, but I find it hard not to look for Gene \nWolfe's voice there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David,\n\nWhy couldn't the author (Severian) have written them in, and the \ntranslator (G.W.) have translated the breaks?\n\nNot saying one is right and one is wrong, but what makes you think it \n\"had to be the translator\"? I ask out of genuine curiosity.\n\n...ryan\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFD8FA5.6010507@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-07T01:36:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "<4CFD8EFF.2060405@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nAlso, the epigraphs give it away---Severian has never heard of Kipling." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We can't be sure of that, now, can we." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFD9002.7020407@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-07T01:38:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/6/2010 12:34 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nOn Dec 6, 2010, at 1:31 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think we know it's -cas, because Ouen says his mother was called\nCas, but the picture he has is of Dorcas. Also - though this is a clue\nonly for us, the readers, not for Severian - the chapter in which the\nold boatman talks about his wife is called 'Dorcas', although that\nname is mentioned nowhere in it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do we know whether Severian titled the chapters of his own tome? I had never thought of that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The translator's notes in _Soldier of the Mist_ detail how he uses the \nfirst words of each entry as best he can tell as the chapter title out \nof a lack of any other identification within the manuscript. The lack of \na similar practice mentioned in the otherwise similar length notes for \nthe BOTNS + URTH suggest it had chapter demarcations, though they may ot \nhave been quite so lurid (\"The Key to the Universe\") in the original tongue.\n\nThere is also the possibility that the book has passed thou other hands \nand been copied with errors and elisions and deliberate changes over the \neons of future history past." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<61763F8F-D731-498F-B3D2-6E09FD52D221@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-07T01:38:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "<4CFD8EFF.2060405@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 6, 2010, at 8:33 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nSorry---I wasn't clear. I'm just saying that's how it's done in translated editions of a work in another language. Wolfe would stick closely to the form he is aping (parodying? at least having fun with).\n\nSame with Latro's scroll. If you see a translation of Egyptian or Tibetan or something that clearly doesn't follow Western traditions---even Greek or old Norse or what have you---you will see chapter headings and other breaks that were entirely introduced by the translator, functioning as an editor, who is taking control and ownership (almost) of the work. They are constructions imposed upon the text for the convenience of the modern reader." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the Latro series, it is told to us that the titles of each break represent the first words of that specific entry, and each chapter is a different journal entry. Right?\n\nIf nothing else, it means that G.W. gives those sorts of things some thought.\n\nThe only reason it is important in my view, relating to BotNS is because, as some have said, they can be evidence of an enlightened Severian who learned his own mysteries after they happened to him. It also means he intentionally used chapters to give us hints to certain things. No more evident than in the use of \"Dorcas\" for the chapter where she only appears at the very end, and not even then (that hand that grabs him from beneath is not hers, right?).\n\nIn any case, maybe I should inquire it of G.W. directly, seems like not TOO out of bounds to ask.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5B63FD4F-F1DE-4120-9533-8B7165E65701@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-07T01:41:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "<4CFD9002.7020407@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 6, 2010, at 8:38 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nthough they may ot have been quite so lurid (\"The Key to the Universe\") in the original tongue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And yet, Severian has no issue musing as to whether he has written the Book of Gold for someone, in the body of a chapter.\n\nI don't know if I want to put too much stock in G.W. having embellished Severian's story through translation, excepting the for-instances G.W. himself states (things that don't have an exact equivalent, for example).\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFD91E1.1060609@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-07T01:46:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "<4CFD8FA5.6010507@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We can never be completely sure of anything, can we? ;)\n\nLook! is that the Conciliator behind you?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/6/2010 8:36 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also, the epigraphs give it away---Severian has never heard of Kipling." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We can't be sure of that, now, can we.\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 101206-1, 12/06/2010\nTested on: 12/6/2010 8:37:07 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFD94F3.6070801@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-07T01:59:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "<4CFD9002.7020407@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possibly. My reading of Mist was that Wolfe was simply mimicking even \nmore closely what editors of Greek and Latin, through the centuries, \nactually did and still do---since Latro writes in Latin or Greek.\n\nIt's the same joke, but a different treatment. So you'd expect a \ndifference, regardless of the absence of notes. Besides, some jokes are \nbetter left unexplained" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/6/2010 8:38 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 12/6/2010 12:34 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Dec 6, 2010, at 1:31 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think we know it's -cas, because Ouen says his mother was called\nCas, but the picture he has is of Dorcas. Also - though this is a clue\nonly for us, the readers, not for Severian - the chapter in which the\nold boatman talks about his wife is called 'Dorcas', although that\nname is mentioned nowhere in it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Do we know whether Severian titled the chapters of his own tome? I \nhad never thought of that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The translator's notes in _Soldier of the Mist_ detail how he uses the \nfirst words of each entry as best he can tell as the chapter title out \nof a lack of any other identification within the manuscript. The lack \nof a similar practice mentioned in the otherwise similar length notes \nfor the BOTNS + URTH suggest it had chapter demarcations, though they \nmay ot have been quite so lurid (\"The Key to the Universe\") in the \noriginal tongue.\n\nThere is also the possibility that the book has passed thou other \nhands and been copied with errors and elisions and deliberate changes \nover the eons of future history past." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFD9834.1030201@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-07T02:13:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "<61763F8F-D731-498F-B3D2-6E09FD52D221@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, Wolfe takes his books very seriously. That was something that \nimmediately attracted me to him: he takes his literary in-jokes to the \nlogical limit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/6/2010 8:38 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nIf nothing else, it means that G.W. gives those sorts of things some thought." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFDB3C8.30008@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-07T04:10:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "<5B63FD4F-F1DE-4120-9533-8B7165E65701@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/6/2010 7:41 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nOn Dec 6, 2010, at 8:38 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "though they may ot have been quite so lurid (\"The Key to the Universe\") in the original tongue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And yet, Severian has no issue musing as to whether he has written the Book of Gold for someone, in the body of a chapter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey, I hadn't thought of it quite so literally before - if Severian \nconsiders his Book to be YA fiction that would certainly explain his \ncircuitous and obfuscatory treatment of the more extreme facts of his story." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFDB64A.6000504@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-07T04:21:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "<4CFD8EFF.2060405@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/6/2010 7:33 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nSorry---I wasn't clear. I'm just saying that's how it's done in\ntranslated editions of a work in another language. Wolfe would stick\nclosely to the form he is aping (parodying? at least having fun with).\n\nSame with Latro's scroll. If you see a translation of Egyptian or\nTibetan or something that clearly doesn't follow Western\ntraditions---even Greek or old Norse or what have you---you will see\nchapter headings and other breaks that were entirely introduced by the\ntranslator, functioning as an editor, who is taking control and\nownership (almost) of the work. They are constructions imposed upon the\ntext for the convenience of the modern reader.\n\nAlso, the epigraphs give it away---Severian has never heard of Kipling." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But he has heard Kipling's work, however many times removed. The Boy \nCalled Frog is Mowgli from _The Jungle Book_; the verse could have held \nits form better over the ages sufficient for the translator to recognize \nit and give the original. The bible verse for Joseph's dream has \ncertainly survived.\n\nThat make me wonder how the dialog from the Jungle Garden would have \nbeen notionally rendered by Severian." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-07T14:41:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "<4CFDB64A.6000504@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 12/6/2010 7:33 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also, the epigraphs give it away---Severian has never heard of Kipling." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But he has heard Kipling's work, however many times removed. The Boy\nCalled Frog is Mowgli from _The Jungle Book_; the verse could have held\nits form better over the ages sufficient for the translator to recognize\nit and give the original. The bible verse for Joseph's dream has\ncertainly survived." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's no doubt that literature from 'our' time has survived, in a\ndisordered and fragmentary form, into Severian's. Indeed one of the\npassages used as an epigraph - the Fitzgerald - is actually quoted in\nthe text, I think by Barbatus or Famulimus. What is improbable is that\nthe names of authors have survived. (Curiously, names of authors are\nnot used with the epigraphs in the first two volumes, but are in the\nlater ones.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFE7416.30903@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-07T17:51:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/7/2010 8:41 AM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/6/2010 7:33 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Also, the epigraphs give it away---Severian has never heard of Kipling." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But he has heard Kipling's work, however many times removed. The Boy\nCalled Frog is Mowgli from _The Jungle Book_; the verse could have held\nits form better over the ages sufficient for the translator to recognize\nit and give the original. The bible verse for Joseph's dream has\ncertainly survived." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's no doubt that literature from 'our' time has survived, in a\ndisordered and fragmentary form, into Severian's. Indeed one of the\npassages used as an epigraph - the Fitzgerald - is actually quoted in\nthe text, I think by Barbatus or Famulimus. What is improbable is that\nthe names of authors have survived." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not a problem, because GW knows who they are." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<212726.85554.qm@web84106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-07T18:41:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm confused---why then do I have the names for all the epigraphs? Perhaps I did some research; that rings a bell....\nAt any rate, the best argument against G.W. being the source of the epigraphs is that the original 4 volumes actually seem to come from Severian, who addresses pertinent remarks to the reader at the end of each volume. So he is far from ignorant of literary conventions. And so he should be, with the Library so close at hand, and Ultan to call up any book for him.\nOn the other hand, such conventions are the editor's domain, and one could as well argue that G.W. fiddled with the endings.\nAnd where is the poetry from the 25th century? There is good reason for G.W. to quote from 20th c and earlier poetry, but no reason for Severian whatsoever.\n\n--- On Tue, 12/7/10, Andrew Mason wrote:\n\nFrom: Andrew Mason \nSubject: (urth) Ouen and Dorcas and —\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Tuesday, December 7, 2010, 9:41 AM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 12/6/2010 7:33 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also, the epigraphs give it away---Severian has never heard of Kipling." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But he has heard Kipling's work, however many times removed. The Boy\nCalled Frog is Mowgli from _The Jungle Book_; the verse could have held\nits form better over the ages sufficient for the translator to recognize\nit and give the original. The bible verse for Joseph's dream has\ncertainly survived." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's no doubt that literature from 'our' time has survived, in a\ndisordered and fragmentary form, into Severian's. Indeed one of the\npassages used as an epigraph - the Fitzgerald - is actually quoted in\nthe text, I think by Barbatus or Famulimus. What is improbable is that\nthe names of authors have survived. (Curiously, names of authors are\nnot used with the epigraphs in the first two volumes, but are in the\nlater ones.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFE85CA.100@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-07T19:06:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "<212726.85554.qm@web84106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote (07-12-2010 18:41):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And where is the poetry from the 25th century? There is good reason for\nG.W. to quote from 20th c and earlier poetry, but no reason for Severian\nwhatsoever." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Except for the global meltdown during the 21st century?\n\nEither way, we don't know how much of other material are quotations from \nthings we don't know." } ] }, { "message_id": "<139870.15249.qm@web84104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-07T19:14:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "<4CFE85CA.100@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also, the destruction of New New York by alien space ships in the 23rd century.\n\n--- On Tue, 12/7/10, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n\nFrom: Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nSubject: Re: (urth) Ouen and Dorcas and —\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, December 7, 2010, 2:06 PM\n\nDAVID STOCKHOFF wrote (07-12-2010 18:41):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And where is the poetry from the 25th century? There is good reason for\nG.W. to quote from 20th c and earlier poetry, but no reason for Severian\nwhatsoever." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Except for the global meltdown during the 21st century?\n\nEither way, we don't know how much of other material are quotations from things we don't know." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-07T21:29:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen and Dorcas and ??", "in_reply_to": "<212726.85554.qm@web84106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And where is the poetry from the 25th century?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The sailors' \"as they said\" tags and the pious \"whose X is Y\" tags are\ngood places to look for future legacy verse. Perhaps Sev's \"old story\" he\nmentions to Eata on the boat?" } ] } ] }