{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5806", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5806, "subject": "This week in Google Alerts: review of _The Knight_", "messages": 8, "voices": 8, "first": "2010-12-06T23:39:02+00:00", "last": "2010-12-09T06:33:55+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-06T23:39:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts: review of _The Knight_", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://weaponsgradeennui.wordpress.com/2010/12/06/the-knight/\n\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He later trades a baby for a dog, offers to kill a youth in order to get a moment alone with Disiri, and “raises a hand” when some woman tries to speak. It seems clear, then, that Able is a bastard. The reader receives no confirmation of this, as all the other characters treat Able is a hero. Women fall in love with him, and his social superiors find him a bold, forthright specimen of manhood. What you get is a heroic story that doesn’t recognize it has an anti-hero at its core." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At this point one begins to wonder if The Knight is a parody of the genre from one of its most gifted practitioners. Only if it’s irony, it’s so dry and deadpan it becomes impossible to detect. At which point, is it even funny? (Says the guy who doesn’t get it.) It may be necessary to give Wolfe the benefit of the doubt: The Knight fails as a straight-forward fantasy narrative. It’s tediously aimless, never addressing its most interesting elements while focusing on a dead theme, chivalry. But if it is ironic, it’s stealthily brilliant. But that suspense — does Wolfe recognize how big an asshole Able is? ? soon became the novel’s one draw." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But so much of these later jumps begin to feel just like gaps. Able is obsessed with Disiri the elf. His love for her motivates everything he does, so much so that motives and decisions do not even exist for him. There is only the action that will bring him closer to Disiri. We see the results of this obsession, but never its cause. Sure, Able tells you he loves Disiri above everything, but the reader never believes it because they never experience it. Again there is a disturbing disjunction between the reported Able and the actual Able, and the narrative never reconciles the two." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Inconsistencies like this — in plot scale, logic, and character — are what make The Knight so maddening. Even if these aren’t mistakes, they’re distracting enough to be counted as such. I do believe Gene Wolfe is a good writer. You’d just never know it from The Knight. Able is a teenage boy, and not a particularly bright one. Generally, Wolfe adheres to this non-literary voice. But sometimes it breaks. Leaving aside obviously incongruous word choices like “purling” to describe a stream, you can see flashes of a genuine lyricism which Able is completely incapable of. These aren’t questions of diction or sophistication, but an artfulness or eloquence of feeling which does not strike me as coming from Able." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What I’ve described is an ambivalence that’s pulling the book in two different directions. One thing turns out to be two things at once, which comes off as a headache-inducing double image rather than complexity. There’s Able and Gene Wolfe’s competing voices. There’s something troubling about the main character. The narrative wants to be epic myth and fish out of water story. Ambivalence is the symptom, but the root cause is ambiguity. Readers can handle cognitive dissonance only if the book trains them to. If not, there’s only indeterminacy." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nhttp://www.gwern.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<877A2204789E4B169A5FDAC19048D18F@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-07T16:42:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts: review of _The Knight_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Gwern Branwen\" \nhttp://weaponsgradeennui.wordpress.com/2010/12/06/the-knight/" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting review - not a favourable one, but well thought out. I think he \ndoes put a finger on a number of points that many will find problematic and \nwhich are certainly odd.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CFEF686.8060101@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-08T03:07:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts: review of _The Knight_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://weaponsgradeennui.wordpress.com/2010/12/06/the-knight/" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It appears he hasn't read anything else by Wolfe. Granted, \"The Wizard \nKnight\" is probably not the novel anyone one would chose as the fulcrum \nof his body of work...but mostly because it is _too_ sterotypically \nWolfe rather than because it falls short of some baseline. But based on \nwhat the guy says about Wolfe's ambiguity, perhaps Wolfe is not his sort \nof author. On the other hand, maybe he should try some of his short stories." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-08T04:59:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts: review of _The Knight_", "in_reply_to": "<4CFEF686.8060101@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The most annoying thing is how patronizing the guy is about sf literature. He doesn't examine why sf is not \"respected\" literary fiction, but rather assumes the imposed hierarchy is entirely natural, and lists the accolades given to literary writers, and thus asserts that no sf writer has received one because genre writing is necessarily inferior. Circular logic aside, he forgets that the awards of things like Nobel prizes are political, and with sf's place among the pop and outsider art traditions, it is little wonder it has received the oh-so-special treatment of literary fiction. \n\nI wonder if he is aware that a few hundred years ago all prose was considered so inferior to poetry. \n\nAnd to complete my rant, I didn't like Able as a narrator either, especially not compared to Severian, but I at least realize my dislike was not in how Able was written, but how Able writes. If the blogger cannot understand the artistry involved in such a flawed narrator, well, I wish him the best of his Cormac McCarthy. \n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 7, 2010, at 9:07 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "http://weaponsgradeennui.wordpress.com/2010/12/06/the-knight/" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It appears he hasn't read anything else by Wolfe. Granted, \"The Wizard Knight\" is probably not the novel anyone one would chose as the fulcrum of his body of work...but mostly because it is _too_ sterotypically Wolfe rather than because it falls short of some baseline. But based on what the guy says about Wolfe's ambiguity, perhaps Wolfe is not his sort of author. On the other hand, maybe he should try some of his short stories.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-08T10:11:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts: review of _The Knight_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lane Haygood wrote:\n'If the blogger cannot understand the artistry involved in such a flawed\nnarrator, well, I wish him the best of his Cormac McCarthy.'\n\nTotally agree with your point about his missing the artistry of writing\nthrough Able. But just want to say Cormac McCarthy and Gene Wolfe are not\nmutually exclusive alternatives! It's funny you should mention McCarthy\nbecause he's one of the only other authors I read that stands up very well\nnext to Wolfe for me. Two very challenging and satisfying authors with\nunbelievable virtuoso prose styles and depth.\n\n-DOJP" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-09T03:44:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts: review of _The Knight_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the comments, the blogger talks about the Tower of Glas being one of the\nmore \"videogamey\" aspects of TWK. This rather surprised me, as I think\nthere's a lot going on in that particular passage. One of my very first\nposts here was about the Tower as a combination of a) the Tower of Babel and\nb) Dante's Purgatory.\n\nhttp://lists.urth.net/htdig.cgi/urth-urth.net/2006-September/006826.html\n\n-Matt" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 5:11 AM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:\nLane Haygood wrote:\n'If the blogger cannot understand the artistry involved in such a flawed\nnarrator, well, I wish him the best of his Cormac McCarthy.'\n\nTotally agree with your point about his missing the artistry of writing\nthrough Able. But just want to say Cormac McCarthy and Gene Wolfe are not\nmutually exclusive alternatives! It's funny you should mention McCarthy\nbecause he's one of the only other authors I read that stands up very well\nnext to Wolfe for me. Two very challenging and satisfying authors with\nunbelievable virtuoso prose styles and depth.\n\n-DOJP\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<994379.38775.qm@web114720.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-09T06:26:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts: review of _The Knight_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Matthew Keeley \nIn the comments, the blogger talks about the Tower of Glas being one of the \nmore \"videogamey\"\naspects of TWK. This rather surprised me, as I think there's a lot going on in \nthat particular \n\npassage. One of my very first posts here was about the Tower as a combination \nof a) the Tower of > Babel and b) Dante's Purgatory. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://lists.urth.net/htdig.cgi/urth-urth.net/2006-September/006826.htmlatt" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No matter what else is going on, climbing an immense stair while being attacked \nby one flying monster after another strikes me as kind of \"videogamey\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 5:11 AM, Daniel Petersen \n wrote:\nLane Haygood wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "'If the blogger cannot understand the artistry involved in such a flawed \nnarrator, well, I wish him\nthe best of his Cormac McCarthy.'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Totally agree with your point about his missing the artistry of writing through \nAble." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nI'm not sure I do. I like a lot of TWK, but I think Able's writing is \ninconsistent, as the blogger said, and I don't see the artistry of that. Unless \nsomeone is suggesting that Able is only pretending to write like an American \nteenager through most, but not all, of /Knight/?\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D007853.9040907@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-09T06:33:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts: review of _The Knight_", "in_reply_to": "<994379.38775.qm@web114720.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/9/2010 12:26 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n*From:* Matthew Keeley \n**\n > In the comments, the blogger talks about the Tower of Glas being one\nof the more \"videogamey\"\n > aspects of TWK. This rather surprised me, as I think there's a lot\ngoing on in that particular\n > passage. One of my very first posts here was about the Tower as a\ncombination of a) the Tower of > Babel and b) Dante's Purgatory.\n >" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://lists.urth.net/htdig.cgi/urth-urth.net/2006-September/006826.htmlatt\n\nNo matter what else is going on, climbing an immense stair while being\nattacked by one flying monster after another strikes me as kind of\n\"videogamey\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How about swordfighting an intemrinable series of sea serpents while \nswimming in full armor?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] } ] }