{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5810", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5810, "subject": "Father Inire Theory cont.", "messages": 89, "voices": 12, "first": "2010-12-10T14:27:20+00:00", "last": "2010-12-14T00:29:18+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-10T14:27:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynno- Sorry. Didn't mean to whine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Funny James! You have a grape sense of humour.\n \n \nAnyway, to continue on my sprawling theory. In the past I've gotten bogged down in \nidentifying the various guises of Father Inire and how he and others might fit into\nSeverian's family tree. I'll skip over that, at least for now, and attempt to address\nthe deeper, more significant issues.\n \nFather Inire might appear in sort of a Merlin's role on first blush. But unlike true \nmonarch, Arthur, the Autarchs do not have royal blood nor divine grace. They are drawn \nfrom among the commoners. In my last post I illustrated the weakness of The Autarchy and \nthe secret power residing in Father Inire for the 1000 year history of the Commonwealth.\n \nWhen Vodalus feeds his followers Thecla's body it is with the hopes that her loyalty to\nhim will be imbued in them. But, as Severian's coin symbolizes, everything Vodalus does\nis a cheap imitation of the Autarch. He is such a dupe he doesn't know where the true\npower of the Autarchy lies. Vodalus is so clueless he doesn't realize his own movement has\nbeen propped up by Father Inire, as evidenced by his flier and blaster, and the Inire \ndictated ascension of his successor, Agia. Father Inire maintains the continuity of the \nAutarchy by having each successor eat the brain of the predecessor. Again, Vodalus uses \njust a cheap imitation of the true seat of power's method of instilling loyalty and \ncompliance.\n \nI previously mentioned Inire parallels in Rasputin and Cardinal Richelieu, and there is a wealth \nof imagery in literature, from Aladdin to LOTR, of the evil vizier using dark arts to \nsecretly control the throne and kingdom. I'd like to label the imagery with some song lyrics:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Please allow me to introduce myself...I\"ve been around for a long, long year. Stole many a man's\nsoul and faith. I was around when Jesus Christ had his moment of doubt and pain. Made damn sure\nthat Pilate washed his hands and sealed his fate. Pleased to meet you. Hope you guess my name.\nBut what's puzzling you is the nature of my game." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I stuck around St. Petersburg...killed the Czar and his ministers, Anastasia screamed in vain.\nI rode a tank, held a general's rank when the blitzkrieg raged and [6 million] bodies stank.\nI watched with glee as your kings and queens fought for 10 decades for the gods they made.\nI shouted out, \"Who killed the Kennedys\", when after all, it was you and me.\nPleased to meet you. Hope you guessed my name." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rolling Stones- Sympathy For The Devil" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nMany have wondered why the Autarch/Inire would keep and sustain the Vodalus movement. The explanation \nis that like Vodalus, Father Inire/Devil/Demiurge has no choice but to rule in a cheap imitation of the\ntrue source of power in the universe(s).\n \nSome Christians assume the Devil is simply evil and meant to be vanquished. Some thoughtful Christians\nwonder why God doesn't vanquish him now. More thoughtful Christians understand that the Devil exists to\nbe opposed but not vanquished (until the End Of Days). The hammer needs the anvil.\n \n(to be continued) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D023DFC.3040607@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-10T14:49:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/10/2010 9:27 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nFather Inire might appear in sort of a Merlin's role on first blush. But unlike true\nmonarch, Arthur, the Autarchs do not have royal blood nor divine grace. They are drawn\nfrom among the commoners. In my last post I illustrated the weakness of The Autarchy and\nthe secret power residing in Father Inire for the 1000 year history of the Commonwealth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Autarchy is a thin thread, yes, but its very strength is the lives \nof commoners. One could argue, easily, that the people are always a \nhigher source of authority than blood or blatantly false divine grace. \nAnyway, it is merely a rhetorical point as to whether a king is raised \nor cheapened by his proximity to the source of his authority---you can \nhave it either way. Transparent knockoff or ritual imitation of the Ideal?\n\nBut I think you mean to point out that Inire provides stronger \ncontinuity than the Autarchy. Agreed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When Vodalus feeds his followers Thecla's body it is with the hopes that her loyalty to\nhim will be imbued in them. But, as Severian's coin symbolizes, everything Vodalus does\nis a cheap imitation of the Autarch. He is such a dupe he doesn't know where the true\npower of the Autarchy lies. Vodalus is so clueless he doesn't realize his own movement has\nbeen propped up by Father Inire, as evidenced by his flier and blaster, and the Inire\ndictated ascension of his successor, Agia. Father Inire maintains the continuity of the\nAutarchy by having each successor eat the brain of the predecessor. Again, Vodalus uses\njust a cheap imitation of the true seat of power's method of instilling loyalty and\ncompliance." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Definitely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Many have wondered why the Autarch/Inire would keep and sustain the Vodalus movement. The explanation\nis that like Vodalus, Father Inire/Devil/Demiurge has no choice but to rule in a cheap imitation of the\ntrue source of power in the universe(s)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You mean as the Increate keeps the Devil employed, so does Inire keep \nVodalus busy. But where is the Devil? This risks becoming a circular \nargument, if Vodalus is an imitation of an ideal Evil whose very \nexistence is a conjecture." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-10T17:00:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D023DFC.3040607@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David, at the risk of sounding condescending or arrogant I would like to try to explain something \nbefore specifically responding to your polite and insightful post.\n \nAre you familiar with this optical illusion? http://images.braingle.com/images/illusions/26745.gif\n \nMost people look at it and see a young woman looking backward. But if you look at it the right way\nit shifts to becoming an old crone looking downward. I think Gene Wolfe writes the way this artist\nhas drawn. Most of his books and ALL (I think) his stories told from First Person have such a \nperceptual twist built in. The twist is not minor but profound (global, as Jeff Wilson might put it)\nand affects almost every aspect of the story.\n \nI can remember reading 5HoC for the first time (I had read the novella previously) and sorting through\nthe addition of a Native American sort of tale and then being annoyed and bored with the pointless, \ndisjointed diary entries of some unimportant prisoner, then suddenly toward the end, \"Holy Crap!\" I \ngot it! And everything else fell into place from there.\n \nAs a man of faith, I think Gene Wolfe rewards those moments of gestalt, holistic insight in his books\nand punishes those who rely on logical detective work and conscious assemblages of evidence. LIke the\noptical illusion, one is rewarded with a stunning revelation and doubled vision, while the other is \npunished with a singular, simplistic vision only of a young, pretty woman.\n \nThe problem is this: If you are able to see the old woman, how do you get someone else to see her too?\nYou can try using words: \"well, young lady's necklace is old crone's mouth, young lady's ear is old crone's\neye\", etc. Maybe, if your audience wants to see the old lady, these clues will help them see her. But if\nan audience member is determined to be skeptical there is nothing you can do- *\"that doesn't look like a mouth;\nthat looks more like an eye than an ear. It is just an eye. It is just a young lady. I find it highly unlikely \nthe artist would put an old crone in there when there is a perfectly nice young pretty lady to see\"*\n \nAnd that's just for a simple drawing. Wolfe's work is much harder to translate. IMHO the thing\nto remember is that the best Wolfe insights are not the product of arguments. They are VISIONS. The evidence\nis consciously collected to support the vision later, but it is the vision which comes first.\n \nPart of the process involves Wolfe's demand for a leap of faith. The first leap to take is accepting that\npretty much every one of his stories will contain a complete paradigm shift which is even more masked and\ndisguised than the one in 5HoC. Another is that Gene wolfe is just smarter than anyone in his audience, at\nleast in the realm of puzzle making/solving. So, when I see signs that someone else has gotten a gestalt\nvision that completely shifts perception of a Wolfe story I pay attention. They might be a delusional,\nmisled, misinformed psychotic inventing things from their own head. But they might onto something. I am not\nthe smartest WOlfe fan but I can admit that. I don't want to be stubborn and petty and vain and risk being \nleft out, missing the reward/old crone my smarter compatriots are willing to share with me.\n \nI think Robert Borski is very good at gestalt insight. I never thought Latro was just a simple soldier wandering\nthrough ancient Europe, losing his memory every night. I didn't figure out a paradigm shift but my assumption is\nthat there was one waiting to be found. And Borski's werewolf insight will be hard to surpass. I can't speak for \nJames Wynn but I have the feeling his theory on Horn-as-Neighbor, which turns the whole story upside-down started \nas a gestalt vision and all his supporting evidence was consciously collected only after the fact.\n \nWhere I think Borski went wrong with BotNS is latching on too tightly to his \"Moses\" metaphor for Father Inire. Is\nit possible he was misled by being jewish? Perhaps it has taken a \"fallen\" jew to see what Father Inire really is. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D026219.4040302@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-10T17:23:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee\n\nI'm a little baffled. I agree with your insight that Wolfe not only \nwrites backward from a vision of the ending, as he has said, but he \nfills in the details of a vision overall. This is important. It means he \nworks more through multifarious allusions than through exhaustive \npuzzle-making.\n\nBut what does it have to do with the topic, or my questions? Are you \nacknowledging that there is no Devil in BOTNS?\n\nI agree with the as-above-so-below concept. I agree with the hammer and \nanvil part. I don't see a Devil, per se, and I don't think you can \nconjure one." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-10T17:32:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D026219.4040302@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff- The Autarchy is a thin thread, yes, but its very strength is the lives of commoners. \nOne could argue, easily, that the people are always a higher source of authority than blood or \nblatantly false divine grace. Anyway, it is merely a rhetorical point as to whether a king is raised \nor cheapened by his proximity to the source of his authority---you can have it either way. Transparent \nknockoff or ritual imitation of the Ideal? But I think you mean to point out that Inire provides stronger \ncontinuity than the Autarchy. Agreed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThe optical illusion in my previous post is simple. Two perspectives. As we have discussed, Wolfe can be\nunderstood on far more than two levels. So yes, Father Inire can be seen as a Merlin figure. And yes, as\nyou suggest, he can be seen as a Machiavellian benefit to the populace (the Peter Wright level?). \n \nI don't mean to ignore those levels but they have been explored. I am tracking the Father Inire as \nFallen Angel/Devil/Goat/Monkey god Dionysus/Demiurge level because it has been almost universally ignored \nand I think it provides a framework for much new insight.\n \nI could point to Inire's creepy smile and the use of teratoid (monstrous) symbols to mark his chambers and various\nother nefarious bits of evidence. But, like the old crone, I think you either can see him in the demon's role or \nyou don't (or won't or can't). If you can, and go back and read the books, there will be numerous \"oh...!\"\nmoments not previously apparent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You mean as the Increate keeps the Devil employed, so does Inire keep Vodalus busy. But where is the Devil?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThe Devil is right where he has always been throughout history and Rolling Stones songs: whispering in the\nKing's (or Fuherer's) ear making the most horrible atrocities against humanity seem justified and righteous.\nEndless warfare, entrenched, perfected, government-sanctioned torture, corpse-eating, cloning, animal fights,\nwitchcraft, etc. All sustained for centuries and justified in ways that fool even the reader into thinking..\n\"hey, this stuff is okay...\"\n \nThink about Inire's note to newly \"crowned\" Severian. I'll paraphrase it: \"Hail, mighty sire! Your humble \nservant has been very busy running the Commonwealth doing every important, nasty deed there is. Getting more\nweapons for our side, supporting the enemy and elevating a new, nasty leader for them, etc. etc. I've got it\nall under control...IF that meets your approval, your highness..\" So the Devil-run process begins anew. What is \na new Autarch going to say to all that but...\"okay\".\n \nDoes it have significance that Severian, unlike 1000 years of his predecessors under Inire, has the moral backbone \nto dissolve the Torturer's Guild? Yes. But that's later in the theory. (hint: what did Severian REALLY do to \nqualify as the bringer of Ushas? Torturer guild is Urth writ small I think) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D026662.7040203@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-10T17:41:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see. All that is great---Inire definitely performs \"necessary\" evil \nand in that sense is both vizier and witch doctor. He is an anvil of \nsorts. He is like the great mass of humanity living and dying in \nblindness and ignorance, breeding more violence and injustice.\n\nBut I think you actually weaken your theory when you mention the Devil. \nThe Rolling Stones' Devil is no Devil, but rather human greed and \nweakness; their Devil is a transparent metaphor. I see the proposed \nconnection, but it seems unneeded. Furthermore, an anvil must be \nstrong---human weakness seems inappropriate to serve as an anvil.\n\n From an evolutionary perspective, however, human venality is a powerful \nselector. On that level, I see it. Still no Devil though. Should we just \ncall it \"Evil\" with local and universal manifestations?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8A10642C-D820-43A3-958F-B77707971DBC@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-10T17:42:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 10, 2010, at 9:00 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI think Robert Borski is very good at gestalt insight. I never thought Latro was just a simple soldier wandering\nthrough ancient Europe, losing his memory every night. I didn't figure out a paradigm shift but my assumption is\nthat there was one waiting to be found. And Borski's werewolf insight will be hard to surpass." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You just blew my head up!\nLatro is a werewolf? I guess I need to think back on that story, it's not coming to mind in a way that fits a werewolf. If that's true, that's the funniest shit ever!\n\nI haven't read this whole thread, but I dig that post Lee. I agree that the huge moments of insight are the prize.\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0266EB.7040709@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-10T17:44:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<8A10642C-D820-43A3-958F-B77707971DBC@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Missed that one. Does Latro fail to remember anything in the morning \nbecause he ran around as a wolf all night?\n\nPlausible, if difficult to imagine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/10/2010 12:42 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nOn Dec 10, 2010, at 9:00 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think Robert Borski is very good at gestalt insight. I never thought Latro was just a simple soldier wandering\nthrough ancient Europe, losing his memory every night. I didn't figure out a paradigm shift but my assumption is\nthat there was one waiting to be found. And Borski's werewolf insight will be hard to surpass." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You just blew my head up!\nLatro is a werewolf? I guess I need to think back on that story, it's not coming to mind in a way that fits a werewolf. If that's true, that's the funniest shit ever!\n\nI haven't read this whole thread, but I dig that post Lee. I agree that the huge moments of insight are the prize.\n~witz\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-10T17:45:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D0266EB.7040709@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 9:44 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nMissed that one. Does Latro fail to remember anything in the morning because\nhe ran around as a wolf all night?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That can't be right because some scenes of the books take place at\nnight. Can't recall if any take place during a full moon tho." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D026850.3000001@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-10T17:50:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly.\n\nBut being a werewolf is certainly a kind of curse, and one the Mother \nmight impose." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/10/2010 12:45 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 9:44 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Missed that one. Does Latro fail to remember anything in the morning because\nhe ran around as a wolf all night?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That can't be right because some scenes of the books take place at\nnight. Can't recall if any take place during a full moon tho." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D026965.6050506@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-10T17:54:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Lee, at the risk of sounding condescending, which is not true, I'd \nlike to congratulate you on the way you've presented your Gestaltver?nderung \n(pun intended) case.\n\nBut I keep waiting for you to develop your FI theory. I haven't (I think) \nwritten anything on this thread yet because I'm yet to understand where \nyou're going. So I suggest you spend less time answering questions and more \npresenting your idea.\n\nIirc so far you've pointed out that:\n\n- FI is an alien. We knew that already, that's what hieorodules are. Though \nmaybe you mean an unconstructed alien, which would take us to the earliest \npresentation in the text. Or maybe you intend to show he's nto an alien at \nall. Well, tell you what - for all I know, FI is *not* a hierodule. Why? \nBecause we're told he is one, and then we're told how he's so past the \nnormal life span of his race. To me, that sounds almost like a monty python \nsketch. Or like \"the inquest declared she had taken her life / but why would \nshe use the butcherman's knife?\".\n\n- Vodalus is cheap in almost every possible way. I think I even once asked \nif someone else got the impression he wasn't the brightest candle in the \nbox. Though maybe you're about to turn that interpretation on its head. \nEither way, I suppose you only brought Vodalus about as a comparison prop.\n\n- FI + Autarchy + Vodalus is a cheap imitation of God + City of God + Devil. \nI don't know, I'd like a bit more of meat on this one.\n\n\nSo what's next?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D026B50.1070506@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-10T18:02:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D0266EB.7040709@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (10-12-2010 17:44):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Missed that one. Does Latro fail to remember anything in the morning\nbecause he ran around as a wolf all night?\n\nPlausible, if difficult to imagine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What about this one: Latro is a character in someone's recurring dream. Each \ntime the dreamer wakes Latro goes into oblivion, and in the next dream \nLatro's memory of what happened during the previous dream is all fog. Now, \nwho's the dreamer?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-10T18:12:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<8A10642C-D820-43A3-958F-B77707971DBC@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 10, 2010, at 9:00 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think Robert Borski is very good at gestalt insight. I never thought\nLatro was just a simple soldier wandering\nthrough ancient Europe, losing his memory every night. I didn't figure\nout a paradigm shift but my assumption is\nthat there was one waiting to be found. And Borski's werewolf insight\nwill be hard to surpass." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You just blew my head up!\nLatro is a werewolf? I guess I need to think back on that story, it's not\ncoming to mind in a way that fits a werewolf. If that's true, that's the\nfunniest shit ever!\n\nI haven't read this whole thread, but I dig that post Lee. I agree that\nthe huge moments of insight are the prize.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IIRC, it was Borski's recollection of LSD-fueled sex when discussing 7AN,\nbut maybe he swings both ways?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6234AE16-9579-4E50-8500-5D00D6A29CC8@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-10T18:17:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D026B50.1070506@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 10, 2010, at 12:02 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (10-12-2010 17:44):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Missed that one. Does Latro fail to remember anything in the morning\nbecause he ran around as a wolf all night?\n\nPlausible, if difficult to imagine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What about this one: Latro is a character in someone's recurring dream. Each time the dreamer wakes Latro goes into oblivion, and in the next dream Latro's memory of what happened during the previous dream is all fog. Now, who's the dreamer?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Red King. Duh.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<777210FE480B4D838AB89AD3CE6967D5@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-10T18:20:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nAs a man of faith, I think Gene Wolfe rewards those moments of gestalt, \nholistic insight in his books\nand punishes those who rely on logical detective work and conscious \nassemblages of evidence. LIke the\noptical illusion, one is rewarded with a stunning revelation and doubled \nvision, while the other is\npunished with a singular, simplistic vision only of a young, pretty woman." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Certainly those who fail to see these holistic patterns are punished; they \nwill miss certain insights. But those fail to apply logic and weigh \nevidence are punished equally - they are doomed to wander endlessly in a \nmaze of random associations that exist more in their heads than in the \nworks. Perhaps it is not such a punishment; they may prefer such an \nexistence. But if they set themselves up as guides, they should not be \nsurprised if those who attempt to follow them become restless after a time, \nbegin to question where they are going, point out that they seem to have \npassed this place before but going in the opposite direction, etc.\n\nIn short, one needs to apply both modes of thought to make progress. Both \nsides of the brain, as some would say.\n\nYou mischaracterise me as relying only on logic, because my criticisms of \nthe interpretational schemes put forward recently by you and James have been \nlogically based. This, it seems to me, is not because my thought processes \nare skewed towards logic, but because yours and James, at least in the way \nthey have been applied here, pay insufficient heed to it.\n\nDoes Gene Wolfe include puzzles in his stories, clues to which may be found \nin a variety of forms, sometimes subtle, for example barely mentioned events \nor allusions? Certainly.\n\nIs therefore every train of association launched from something that might \nor might not be such a clue an equally valid interpretation? I do not think \nso.\n\nTo understand a Wolfe novel (insofar as that may be possible) we must employ \nboth intuition and reason. To abandon one of the two is to walk on one leg." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And that's just for a simple drawing. Wolfe's work is much harder to \ntranslate. IMHO the thing\nto remember is that the best Wolfe insights are not the product of \narguments. They are VISIONS. The evidence is consciously collected to \nsupport the vision later, but it is the vision which comes first." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fine - but isn't it equally important to examine the evidence that \nsupposedly supports the vision, and even consider evidence that contradicts \nit?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Part of the process involves Wolfe's demand for a leap of faith. The first \nleap to take is accepting that\npretty much every one of his stories will contain a complete paradigm \nshift which is even more masked and\ndisguised than the one in 5HoC. Another is that Gene wolfe is just smarter \nthan anyone in his audience, at\nleast in the realm of puzzle making/solving. So, when I see signs that \nsomeone else has gotten a gestalt\nvision that completely shifts perception of a Wolfe story I pay attention. \nThey might be a delusional,\nmisled, misinformed psychotic inventing things from their own head. But \nthey might onto something. I am not\nthe smartest WOlfe fan but I can admit that. I don't want to be stubborn \nand petty and vain and risk being\nleft out, missing the reward/old crone my smarter compatriots are willing \nto share with me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I pay attention too. I even attempt to determine whether the vision is \nsound or not. That, in fact, is exactly what you're criticising me for, \nthough you attempt to dress it up otherwise!\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-10T18:31:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<777210FE480B4D838AB89AD3CE6967D5@jill>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff- The Rolling Stones' Devil is no Devil, but rather human greed and weakness; \ntheir Devil is a transparent metaphor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWhat is the deepest secret of the Inhumi?\n \nDavid, I think you once mentioned being non-religious (same for me). So it makes sense for you\nto see Devil references as metaphors. You don't believe in the Devil (or God). But that is not\nthe question here. The question is, \"what does Gene Wolfe believe?\" Isn't it? It is for me. My\nown worldview means nothing (I hope) as I interpret BotNS.\n \nIn a way you are asking the religious philosophical question of the centuries: What would it take\nfor you to believe in God/The Devil? What would you need to see?\n \nI am hoping you will answer that question for BotNS and I will wait for it.\n \nIn the meantime I'll note that I mention the Inhumi in part because there is a BotNS character\nwho compares himself to a vampire. There are some other demonic references though you would \nNEVER suspect this guy. I'll need to get my text before I can make that post.\n \nAlso in the meantime I think it is important to remember the concept we discussed: \"book as \nuniverse/author as demi-urge\". Gene Wolfe is the Great Deceiver. He consciously writes stories\nwhich keep the less-aware fooled and drive the more aware to realizations that we have been duped!\nWe are not reading the story we thought we were reading. \n \nBotNS is a hell that he created. We see it through the eyes of one of its residents (Severian) who \nhas been trained from birth to see Hell just as the Devil tricks him into seeing it. The universe\nlower than Briah is Abaddon, a clear allusion to Hell. But (if you accept the Wolfe interview) if\nwe in our Earthly universe are a step higher than Briah, what does that make Briah?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz- You just blew my head up! Latro is a werewolf?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThat theory is in Borski newer book, The Long and Short of It. Maybe I can post the details later. The\nevidence is, of course, skimpy. But it HAS to be, otherwise EVERYONE would have figured it out. I think\nthe idea is so cool it practically has to be Wolfe-intended, kinda like James Wynn's Typhon as Alexander\ntheory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l D. Oakes- That can't be right because some scenes of the books take place at night. Can't recall if \nany take place during a full moon tho." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So The Great Deceiver works! Create a really cool concept and then throw contradicting evidence around to keep \nus off balance. I think you can see why making Latro lose his memory only once a month would be just too \ndamn easy to figure out. \n \n(like making Inire look goat-like would also be too easy...would that have been enough for David to believe? \nSo instead we get Faunus->Inuus->monkey) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0274DD.7050803@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-10T18:43:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D026B50.1070506@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Only if the dream is the dream of a wolf. ;)\n\nOr perhaps Wolfe's dog dreaming he is a wolf dreaming of being a man ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/10/2010 1:02 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (10-12-2010 17:44):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Missed that one. Does Latro fail to remember anything in the morning\nbecause he ran around as a wolf all night?\n\nPlausible, if difficult to imagine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What about this one: Latro is a character in someone's recurring \ndream. Each time the dreamer wakes Latro goes into oblivion, and in \nthe next dream Latro's memory of what happened during the previous \ndream is all fog. Now, who's the dreamer?\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D027A01.4020408@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-10T19:05:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A fair question. The Devil is a gross caricature, of course---I do not \nexpect horns and a tail. But I do expect:\n\n(1) a global or limited-universal presence\n\n(2) some sense of the existence of true evil\n\n(3) some demonstration of opposition to the Above\n\nMy objection to the Devil in terms of taste and style---literally---is \nfar more important than any personal inclination against \npersonification. So let's set him aside, because he is truly a \ntasteless, crude, cartoonish, pop figure who has only occasionally \nreceived a respectable literary treatment (see Hawthorne). People don't \ntend to write novels about him---they write jokes, as has Wolfe himself.\n\nLucifer, on the other hand, could fit the bill. But now we need to add \nsome taint of hubris, some loss of the Empyrean, some proud rebellion. \nAgain, you can conjecture his existence from the pattern of Vodalus. But \nthere is no such figure.\n\nDoes Inire fight to keep or expand his kingdom? Does he sit glowering on \nhis darkly glowing throne? Is he basically trapped on Urth, as in \nMilton? (If so, how can he travel through mirrors? There was some \ndiscussion of that.) If he has truly lost his ability to leave Urth, \nthen we might have a strong connection.\n\nInire is everywhere a vizier needs to be. But he isn't everywhere, he \nisn't truly evil, and he isn't rebelling against anything. I agree that \nhe takes a certain \"fallen,\" or at least grounded, angel position like \nthat between Pope and God, but if he is the personification of evil, \nwhat is Erebus?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/10/2010 1:31 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nIn a way you are asking the religious philosophical question of the centuries: What would it take\nfor you to believe in God/The Devil? What would you need to see?\n\nI am hoping you will answer that question for BotNS and I will wait for it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D027BED.8080806@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-10T19:13:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D027A01.4020408@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (10-12-2010 19:05):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Inire is everywhere a vizier needs to be. But he isn't everywhere, he\nisn't truly evil," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For the current pop culture, influencing = evil." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and he isn't rebelling against anything. I agree that\nhe takes a certain \"fallen,\" or at least grounded, angel position like\nthat between Pope and God, but if he is the personification of evil,\nwhat is Erebus?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe I should have asked wheteher it was\nFI + Autarchy + Vodalus + Erebus\nGod + City of God + City of Man + Devil\n\n\nSeeing as in fact the interests of the Devil have nothing in common with \nthose of evil humans, except inasmuch as the latter are his tools." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-10T19:23:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D027BED.8080806@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques- Gestaltver?nderung = shapeshifter. Incredibly great pun!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nPerhaps I chose my young woman-old crone illusion better than I knew. She is a \nshapeshifter isn't she? In fact I think the illusion-based portion of the Inhumi disguise\nworks just like that! Our old crone makes her mouth look like a young woman's necklace.\nPerhaps the inhumi hold their claws in just such a position around their wrist that they \nappear as bracelets or something. Krait always seems to be holding a pose in one position.\nI can't remember about the other inhumi." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I keep waiting for you to develop your FI theory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWhat else can I do but what I am doing? I alternate between discussing the big\npicture and how the smaller elements combine to form it. But I can't assemble it\nfor anyone else but myself.\n \nI'll try another shot at the (really) big picture. BotNS can be read at multiple levels.\nThey are simultaneous like the young woman/old crone. The levels do not negate each other\nbut sometimes interact and support each other. Though unseen, Father Inire is a central \ncharacter and can be interpreted at all the levels, like Severian. \n \nAutobiographical level- Severian's life parallels Gene Wolfe's, school, army, wife, etc. Gene \nWolfe's father was a charismatic travelling salesman. Not always home but still with great \nimpact on the family. I'll leave it at that.\n \nSF level- Father Inire is an alien, surely an interstellar one. The only interstellar ship we\nsee is Tzadkiel's. Inire must have served on it, but no longer. We see no direct connection between\nInire and the hierodules. It is unreliable Severian who says Inire labels himself a hierodule. \nThe acknowledged hierodules B, F and O nod without explanation.\n \nTzadkiel's ship seems to be plagued by mutineers. Hethor's babble suggests he was such a mutineer.\nFather Inire, like Hethor, is good with mirrors and interested in ...poppets. I think there is more\nto the story of Inire than either side wants to discuss.\n \n \nReligious/mythological level- there has been a suggestion that Father Inire appears in the story in\nvarious human and animal guises. This seems like a parallel to what Greek (and other pagan) gods were\nalways doing. There is evidence that Father Inire (in guises) has a pivotal place in Severian's family\ntree (no accident that Wolfe takes away the obvious, father-slot, and gives it to Ouen). Severian's \nlife resembles that of a Greek Hero. Many of the heroes (and I think of one in particular) have a god\nin their ancestry.\n \nAs has been discussed on the board recently, conflating pagan gods and aliens has been a common SF-Fantasy\ntrope for years. In the broadest sense, Gnostic thought is also important to BotNS by many references.\nGnostic thought conflates pagan gods with fallen angels, with debate over which are which. These principles\nguided Wolfe in his writing of BoTNS.\n \nSigh, sorry that's the best I can do right now. I will try to answer any questions on how these pieces\nassemble to a whole. Really, I think the best way could be to re-read the text with these ideas in mind.\nAs mentioned, at least for me, doing that creates an \"ohh..!\" moment here and there during reading. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D02816B.7060601@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-10T19:37:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D027BED.8080806@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Point taken. Which makes Erebus a plainer Devil, though Inire may be \nlittle better than him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/10/2010 2:13 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nSeeing as in fact the interests of the Devil have nothing in common \nwith those of evil humans, except inasmuch as the latter are his tools. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-10T19:43:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D02816B.7060601@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff- Lucifer, on the other hand, could fit the bill." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nDavid this feels unfair. I am trying to be concise and brief in this limited\nformat. When I say \"The Devil\" it is with the expectation that you will do\nsome of the work for me and realize there are multiple names and interpretations\nof The Devil and how Father Inire may fit (or not fit) them. I can't spell out\neverything here. I am feeling mentally strained now, to be honest and I could use\nhelp more than challenge at the current time. As it happens, Lucifer will be \nmentioned in the example I will give tomorrow." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is he basically trapped on Urth, as in Milton? (If so, how can he travel through \nmirrors? There was some discussion of that.) If he has truly lost his ability to leave Urth, \nthen we might have a strong connection." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nDoes he travel through mirrors? Or is he restricted to receiving objects (and creatures)\nthrough them? The Jungle Hut scene might indicate travel, if he is Isangoma. Or it might\nindicate that he is unable to travel and must create other worlds/times in the form of a\nhuman (and other species) zoo. \n \nI'll mention that various board contributors have compared Fr. Inire to Fenrir, Prometheus, Moses, \nAzazel and perhaps others, all trapped or chained, mostly gift-bringers to humanity, some gods, some \nreligious figures, some fallen angels in the mix." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Inire is everywhere a vizier needs to be. But he isn't everywhere.." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh. One of the criticisms of my Father Inire Theory is that he is too much everywhere. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "isn't truly evil..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Through whose eyes are we seeing him? I say his creation, the Commonwealth,\nand perhaps all Urth is evil. It gets the Flood treatment. Why?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...and he isn't rebelling against anything." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIf Hethor, the mutineer, was shown to be a version of him, would you reassess that?\n\n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-10T19:49:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D0274DD.7050803@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you go to Google Books (not the new ebookstore) you can previewRobert Borski's \"The Long and Short of it\" book. On page 36 he lays out the Latro Werewolf idea. Pretty amazing. I'm going to have to keep that in mind when I read it again.\n\n~Mike" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 10, 2010, at 10:43 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOnly if the dream is the dream of a wolf. ;)\n\nOr perhaps Wolfe's dog dreaming he is a wolf dreaming of being a man ...\n\nOn 12/10/2010 1:02 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (10-12-2010 17:44):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Missed that one. Does Latro fail to remember anything in the morning\nbecause he ran around as a wolf all night?\n\nPlausible, if difficult to imagine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What about this one: Latro is a character in someone's recurring dream. Each time the dreamer wakes Latro goes into oblivion, and in the next dream Latro's memory of what happened during the previous dream is all fog. Now, who's the dreamer?\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 101210-0, 12/10/2010\nTested on: 12/10/2010 1:03:30 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 101210-0, 12/10/2010\nTested on: 12/10/2010 1:43:41 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-10T19:55:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, have to answer that question. I see Erebus and Abaia as not so distinct as their\nnaming might indicate. The end of RttW suggests Scylla and Abaia are not so separate\neither. They are (by design by Wolfe) difficult to delineate and understand.\n \nAs Antonio suggests, they work through agents. It must be considered that Father Inire\nis merely one of those agents. He doesn't have to be everywhere or a shapeshifter if a\nlarger entity is breaking off pieces to serve as agents. He is just, ironically, the most \nvisible face of them with regard to wielding political power. There are other jobs to do.\n \nIn our history, we can cast the evil vizier whispering into the king's ear, be it Rasputin, \nAdolph Eichman or Dick Cheney, as a demonic metaphor. But I think it is a SF-Fantasy \n(and horror?) author's stock-in-trade to take our historical, mythological and relgious \nmetaphors and create \"real\" characters out of them. I think Gene Wolfe has done that.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<81E1827E-A50E-492C-9099-59D47D08CDCB@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-10T20:08:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borski: Latro-Lucius-Lupus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here's the link for a readable scan of Robert Borski's The Long and Short of It.\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=7y1jBrpx4loC&printsec=frontcover&dq=borski+the+long+and+short+of+it&hl=en&ei=IYcCTcmzHMv9nAe6zrnlDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false\n\nI think his evidentiary explanation of Latro's hidden lycanthropy is very compelling.\nI'm blown away to think I've read three books without a clue that the \"Author\" / Protagonist Is a werewolf and I didn't know it. Now I have to read them all again.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 10, 2010, at 11:49 AM, Son of Witz wrote:\nIf you go to Google Books (not the new ebookstore) you can previewRobert Borski's \"The Long and Short of it\" book. On page 36 he lays out the Latro Werewolf idea. Pretty amazing. I'm going to have to keep that in mind when I read it again.\n\n~Mike\n\nOn Dec 10, 2010, at 10:43 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Only if the dream is the dream of a wolf. ;)\n\nOr perhaps Wolfe's dog dreaming he is a wolf dreaming of being a man ...\n\nOn 12/10/2010 1:02 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (10-12-2010 17:44):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Missed that one. Does Latro fail to remember anything in the morning\nbecause he ran around as a wolf all night?\n\nPlausible, if difficult to imagine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What about this one: Latro is a character in someone's recurring dream. Each time the dreamer wakes Latro goes into oblivion, and in the next dream Latro's memory of what happened during the previous dream is all fog. Now, who's the dreamer?\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<46DE3F6D-47D9-408F-ACFA-C2DB8B05DD41@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-10T20:11:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borski: Latro-Lucius-Lupus", "in_reply_to": "<81E1827E-A50E-492C-9099-59D47D08CDCB@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry. Chapter 4 Wolves in the Fold is the relevant part.\n\n~Witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 10, 2010, at 12:08 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nHere's the link for a readable scan of Robert Borski's The Long and Short of It.\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=7y1jBrpx4loC&printsec=frontcover&dq=borski+the+long+and+short+of+it&hl=en&ei=IYcCTcmzHMv9nAe6zrnlDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false\n\nI think his evidentiary explanation of Latro's hidden lycanthropy is very compelling.\nI'm blown away to think I've read three books without a clue that the \"Author\" / Protagonist Is a werewolf and I didn't know it. Now I have to read them all again.\n\n~witz\n\nOn Dec 10, 2010, at 11:49 AM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If you go to Google Books (not the new ebookstore) you can previewRobert Borski's \"The Long and Short of it\" book. On page 36 he lays out the Latro Werewolf idea. Pretty amazing. I'm going to have to keep that in mind when I read it again.\n\n~Mike\n\nOn Dec 10, 2010, at 10:43 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Only if the dream is the dream of a wolf. ;)\n\nOr perhaps Wolfe's dog dreaming he is a wolf dreaming of being a man ...\n\nOn 12/10/2010 1:02 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (10-12-2010 17:44):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Missed that one. Does Latro fail to remember anything in the morning\nbecause he ran around as a wolf all night?\n\nPlausible, if difficult to imagine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "What about this one: Latro is a character in someone's recurring dream. Each time the dreamer wakes Latro goes into oblivion, and in the next dream Latro's memory of what happened during the previous dream is all fog. Now, who's the dreamer?\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List" } ] }, { "message_id": "<72BA9380766742E7BA6BF666412C31F2@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-10T20:12:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nSF level- Father Inire is an alien, surely an interstellar one. The only \ninterstellar ship we\nsee is Tzadkiel's. Inire must have served on it, but no longer. We see no \ndirect connection between\nInire and the hierodules. It is unreliable Severian who says Inire labels \nhimself a hierodule.\nThe acknowledged hierodules B, F and O nod without explanation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We don't see Tzadkiel's ship until _UotNS_. In BotNS, however, we see lots \nof ships, and indeed spend much time in them..\n\nFirst there are the ships of the citatel, in one of which resides the Guild \nof Torturers. Conceivably these were only fit for transport within the \nSolar System, but there's no evidence either way. Typhon confirms that Urth \nat one time possessed many interstellar ships, on which many of his \nsupporters fled.\n\nJonas served on an interstellar ship which crashed on Urth a little north of \nNessus. This ship became incorporated within the House Absolute; the \nAntechamber was part of it. It was equipped with a set of mirrors which \napparently had interstellar capability. (These may or may not be the same \nones used by Fr. Inire.)\n\nGene Wolfe in his afterword also indicates that there are multiple ships. \n(That does not mean that Tzadkiel's ship is not the only one of its kind. \nBut obviously there are many interstellar ships other than Tzadkiel's.)\n\nAnd even if there were only one ship (not the case) and Inire had to come to \nUrth by way of it (not the case, there are mirrors) I see no obvious reason \nwhy he must have been a crewman." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tzadkiel's ship seems to be plagued by mutineers. Hethor's babble \nsuggests he was such a mutineer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where? Not saying he doesn't, I just don't recall any babbling of his that \nparticularly suggested that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Father Inire, like Hethor, is good with mirrors and interested in \n...poppets. I think there is more\nto the story of Inire than either side wants to discuss." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Inire, like Jonas, like the Autarch, like Hethor, can use the mirror \ntechnology if it s to hand. Alien tech is ergonomically designed - Severian \nsuccessfully lit a fire with a laser pistol the first time he used one, even \nif he did melt the fireplace.\n\nInire likes young human children, although there is no obvious suggestion of \nsexual perversity in this regard. Hethor likes sex dolls, and a clearly \npost-pubertal young woman.\n\nThis does not amount to a sliver of even circumstantial evidence.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D028B83.8000108@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-10T20:20:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee, I'm not trying to be unfair. The Devil runs a very different kind \nof game than does Lucifer. They are not the same. If you say Devil, I \nread Devil. If you say Lucifer, I read Lucifer. It helps to say what you \nmean as much as you can---it would save us all a lot of words. :)\n\nI do see the difference between the Serpent, who lies in whispers, and \nLucifer, who rebelled and rules the deep. Inire does not rule anything. \nHe is a flatterer, however ... a Wormtongue.\n\nRight, I recall the chained-god discussion now. Yes, Inire may be bound \nto Urth in some way, and this is not too different from Lucifer's being \ncondemned to Hell. Yet he is not ruler of Urth ... as far as we know.\n\nIf Inire is the Serpent---a particular manifestation of Lucifer, who may \nor may not manifest differently elsewhere, outside the frame of the \nstory---he doesn't need to be really obviously evil. He doesn't need to \npersonify evil, just lies. He doesn't need to be everywhere. He just \nneeds to be in the right place at the right time saying just the wrong \nthing. The Serpent only committed one crime, after all.\n\nYes, if Urth is Abaddon (which was the calculation I always reached in \nreading those passages but couldn't see how that could work), then the \nCommonwealth is a fallen, gnostic Paradise on Urth with Inire as the \nSerpent. This theory explains why Inire is hidden so much from \nus---Wolfe doesn't want us asking too many questions.\n\nNo, I don't think Hethor needs to be Inire. Only Inire needs to be Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/10/2010 2:43 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff- Lucifer, on the other hand, could fit the bill." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David this feels unfair. I am trying to be concise and brief in this limited\nformat. When I say \"The Devil\" it is with the expectation that you will do\nsome of the work for me and realize there are multiple names and interpretations\nof The Devil and how Father Inire may fit (or not fit) them. I can't spell out\neverything here. I am feeling mentally strained now, to be honest and I could use\nhelp more than challenge at the current time. As it happens, Lucifer will be\nmentioned in the example I will give tomorrow." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is he basically trapped on Urth, as in Milton? (If so, how can he travel through\nmirrors? There was some discussion of that.) If he has truly lost his ability to leave Urth,\nthen we might have a strong connection." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does he travel through mirrors? Or is he restricted to receiving objects (and creatures)\nthrough them? The Jungle Hut scene might indicate travel, if he is Isangoma. Or it might\nindicate that he is unable to travel and must create other worlds/times in the form of a\nhuman (and other species) zoo.\n\nI'll mention that various board contributors have compared Fr. Inire to Fenrir, Prometheus, Moses,\nAzazel and perhaps others, all trapped or chained, mostly gift-bringers to humanity, some gods, some\nreligious figures, some fallen angels in the mix." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Inire is everywhere a vizier needs to be. But he isn't everywhere.." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heh. One of the criticisms of my Father Inire Theory is that he is too much everywhere." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "isn't truly evil..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Through whose eyes are we seeing him? I say his creation, the Commonwealth,\nand perhaps all Urth is evil. It gets the Flood treatment. Why?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...and he isn't rebelling against anything." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Hethor, the mutineer, was shown to be a version of him, would you reassess that?\n\n\n \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D028CBE.6050300@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-10T20:25:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Page 36 did not appear for me.\n\nThe cover of this book is brilliant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/10/2010 2:49 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nIf you go to Google Books (not the new ebookstore) you can previewRobert Borski's \"The Long and Short of it\" book. On page 36 he lays out the Latro Werewolf idea. Pretty amazing. I'm going to have to keep that in mind when I read it again.\n\n~Mike\n\nOn Dec 10, 2010, at 10:43 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Only if the dream is the dream of a wolf. ;)\n\nOr perhaps Wolfe's dog dreaming he is a wolf dreaming of being a man ...\n\nOn 12/10/2010 1:02 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (10-12-2010 17:44):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Missed that one. Does Latro fail to remember anything in the morning\nbecause he ran around as a wolf all night?\n\nPlausible, if difficult to imagine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What about this one: Latro is a character in someone's recurring dream. Each time the dreamer wakes Latro goes into oblivion, and in the next dream Latro's memory of what happened during the previous dream is all fog. Now, who's the dreamer?\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 101210-0, 12/10/2010\nTested on: 12/10/2010 1:03:30 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 101210-0, 12/10/2010\nTested on: 12/10/2010 1:43:41 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D028D28.3050707@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-10T20:27:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How can the Devil (Serpent, Lucifer) serve anyone but himself?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/10/2010 2:55 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nOkay, have to answer that question. I see Erebus and Abaia as not so distinct as their\nnaming might indicate. The end of RttW suggests Scylla and Abaia are not so separate\neither. They are (by design by Wolfe) difficult to delineate and understand.\n\nAs Antonio suggests, they work through agents. It must be considered that Father Inire\nis merely one of those agents. He doesn't have to be everywhere or a shapeshifter if a\nlarger entity is breaking off pieces to serve as agents. He is just, ironically, the most\nvisible face of them with regard to wielding political power. There are other jobs to do.\n\nIn our history, we can cast the evil vizier whispering into the king's ear, be it Rasputin,\nAdolph Eichman or Dick Cheney, as a demonic metaphor. But I think it is a SF-Fantasy\n(and horror?) author's stock-in-trade to take our historical, mythological and relgious\nmetaphors and create \"real\" characters out of them. I think Gene Wolfe has done that.\n \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-10T20:29:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D028CBE.6050300@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David,\n\nOpen the Googlebook and search for \"werewolf.\" You'll get a link to\npage 37. Click the back-one-page link and start reading.\n\nI'm not sure what I think yet.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 12:25 PM, David Stockhoff\n wrote:\nPage 36 did not appear for me.\n\nThe cover of this book is brilliant.\n\nOn 12/10/2010 2:49 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If you go to Google Books (not the new ebookstore) you can previewRobert\nBorski's \"The Long and Short of it\" book. On page 36 he lays out the Latro\nWerewolf idea. “Pretty amazing. I'm going to have to keep that in mind when\nI read it again.\n\n~Mike\n\nOn Dec 10, 2010, at 10:43 AM, David Stockhoff\n?wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Only if the dream is the dream of a wolf. ;)\n\nOr perhaps Wolfe's dog dreaming he is a wolf dreaming of being a man ...\n\nOn 12/10/2010 1:02 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (10-12-2010 17:44):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Missed that one. Does Latro fail to remember anything in the morning\nbecause he ran around as a wolf all night”\n\nPlausible, if difficult to imagine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "What about this one: Latro is a character in someone's recurring dream.\nEach time the dreamer wakes Latro goes into oblivion, and in the next dream\nLatro's memory of what happened during the previous dream is all fog. Now,\nwho's the dreamer?\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 101210-0, 12/10/2010\nTested on: 12/10/2010 1:03:30 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 101210-0, 12/10/2010\nTested on: 12/10/2010 1:43:41 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D028EB4.2030002@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-10T20:33:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I get a line from Page 37 and 38 with \"No preview available\" and no buttons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/10/2010 3:29 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nDavid,\n\nOpen the Googlebook and search for \"werewolf.\" You'll get a link to\npage 37. Click the back-one-page link and start reading.\n\nI'm not sure what I think yet.\n\n--Dan'l\n\nOn Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 12:25 PM, David Stockhoff\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Page 36 did not appear for me.\n\nThe cover of this book is brilliant.\n\nOn 12/10/2010 2:49 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If you go to Google Books (not the new ebookstore) you can previewRobert\nBorski's \"The Long and Short of it\" book. On page 36 he lays out the Latro\nWerewolf idea. Pretty amazing. I'm going to have to keep that in mind when\nI read it again.\n\n~Mike\n\nOn Dec 10, 2010, at 10:43 AM, David Stockhoff\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Only if the dream is the dream of a wolf. ;)\n\nOr perhaps Wolfe's dog dreaming he is a wolf dreaming of being a man ...\n\nOn 12/10/2010 1:02 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (10-12-2010 17:44):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Missed that one. Does Latro fail to remember anything in the morning\nbecause he ran around as a wolf all night?\n\nPlausible, if difficult to imagine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "What about this one: Latro is a character in someone's recurring dream.\nEach time the dreamer wakes Latro goes into oblivion, and in the next dream\nLatro's memory of what happened during the previous dream is all fog. Now,\nwho's the dreamer?\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 101210-0, 12/10/2010\nTested on: 12/10/2010 1:03:30 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 101210-0, 12/10/2010\nTested on: 12/10/2010 1:43:41 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-10T21:04:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D028EB4.2030002@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff- Lee, I'm not trying to be unfair. The Devil runs a very different kind \nof game than does Lucifer. They are not the same. If you say Devil, I read Devil. If you \nsay Lucifer, I read Lucifer. It helps to say what you mean as much as you can---it would \nsave us all a lot of words. :)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThis sounds a bit like the \"Dionysus cannot have anything to do with lianas unless they have\ngrapes on them, even if Gene Wolfe calls them vines\" cavil. I am not an expert demonologist \nand perhaps you are. In my experience most people find a connection between Lucifer and the Devil. \nIf they are completely different, unrelated entities to you I think I am too uneducated to discuss\nthe issue. I just get the feeling Gene Wolfe is writing for people who think Lucifer and the Devil\nare connected but what do I know.\n \nI've mentioned there is a BotNS character who seems unequivocally good but with a Lucifer-association.\nMaybe Father Inire is best described as \"demi-urge\". Maybe Hethor is best described as \"devil\". I don't\nknow. They all seem like aspect of the same basic principle to me, but what do I know. Not much I guess." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, if Urth is Abaddon..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNo, that wasn't what I was saying. I was saying that if Abaddon is hell from a Briah point of view then\nperhaps Briah (and Urth) is hell from our point of view from a higher universe with a true Christ-figure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, I don't think Hethor needs to be Inire. Only Inire needs to be Inire." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does that mean only Tzadkiel needs to be Tzadkiel? Isn't it possible other entities in the story can \nperform his/her tricks to a lesser degree? Tzadkiel's largest form (that we see) is described as big\nas an island. Erebus and Abaia are a bit smaller, being only the size of mountains." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How can the Devil (Serpent, Lucifer) serve anyone but himself?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHow can multiple copies of Tzadkiel all serve Tzadkiel? How can multiple copies of Great God Pan\nall serve Pan? How can both The Commonwealth and the Ascian lands be controlled by anti-human, demonic\nforces? I hope this illustrates how all Urth could be considered a demi-urgic creation of the being we\nusually call Father Inire. Whispers in the ears of all leaders.\n \nCan a portion of a larger being rebel against its larger self? Perhaps we see a tiny example of that\nfor Tzadkiel? It might not be true. That portion of Tzadkiel is still pretty and still\nserves Tzadkiel I think. Just an angelic ruse to let us/Severian know smaller parts can rebel against the \nlarger parental unit.\n \nI think (in BotNS) when a portion of Tzadkiel truly falls and becomes separated from angelic grace (and \nleaves the ship for good) we can tell because it becomes ugly. Hence Hethor, Inire and The Cumaean. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D029831.5020601@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-10T21:14:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/10/2010 4:04 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff- Lee, I'm not trying to be unfair. The Devil runs a very different kind\nof game than does Lucifer. They are not the same. If you say Devil, I read Devil. If you\nsay Lucifer, I read Lucifer. It helps to say what you mean as much as you can---it would\nsave us all a lot of words. :)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This sounds a bit like the \"Dionysus cannot have anything to do with lianas unless they have\ngrapes on them, even if Gene Wolfe calls them vines\" cavil. I am not an expert demonologist\nand perhaps you are. In my experience most people find a connection between Lucifer and the Devil.\nIf they are completely different, unrelated entities to you I think I am too uneducated to discuss\nthe issue. I just get the feeling Gene Wolfe is writing for people who think Lucifer and the Devil\nare connected but what do I know.\n\nI've mentioned there is a BotNS character who seems unequivocally good but with a Lucifer-association.\nMaybe Father Inire is best described as \"demi-urge\". Maybe Hethor is best described as \"devil\". I don't\nknow. They all seem like aspect of the same basic principle to me, but what do I know. Not much I guess." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's possible that you don't know enough to see the value in \ndistinctions between them. The character Lucifer is largely derived from \nMilton. The Devil is an American folk character who trades in souls. And \nso on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, if Urth is Abaddon..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, that wasn't what I was saying. I was saying that if Abaddon is hell from a Briah point of view then\nperhaps Briah (and Urth) is hell from our point of view from a higher universe with a true Christ-figure." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's exactly what I was saying, and exactly what I thought you were \nsaying. I think." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No, I don't think Hethor needs to be Inire. Only Inire needs to be Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does that mean only Tzadkiel needs to be Tzadkiel? Isn't it possible other entities in the story can\nperform his/her tricks to a lesser degree? Tzadkiel's largest form (that we see) is described as big\nas an island. Erebus and Abaia are a bit smaller, being only the size of mountains." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't understand." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How can the Devil (Serpent, Lucifer) serve anyone but himself?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How can multiple copies of Tzadkiel all serve Tzadkiel? How can multiple copies of Great God Pan\nall serve Pan? How can both The Commonwealth and the Ascian lands be controlled by anti-human, demonic\nforces? I hope this illustrates how all Urth could be considered a demi-urgic creation of the being we\nusually call Father Inire. Whispers in the ears of all leaders." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, but you said Erebus controls Inire. Who controls the Devil, or the \nSerpent, or Lucifer? No one. You need to set up a model and stick to it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Can a portion of a larger being rebel against its larger self? Perhaps we see a tiny example of that\nfor Tzadkiel? It might not be true. That portion of Tzadkiel is still pretty and still\nserves Tzadkiel I think. Just an angelic ruse to let us/Severian know smaller parts can rebel against the\nlarger parental unit.\n\nI think (in BotNS) when a portion of Tzadkiel truly falls and becomes separated from angelic grace (and\nleaves the ship for good) we can tell because it becomes ugly. Hence Hethor, Inire and The Cumaean. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Cumaean is a possibility for fallenness, but then who is she? Is she \nalso the Devil? Is she Inire?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-10T21:23:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D029831.5020601@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nLee, I'm not trying to be unfair. The Devil runs a very different kind\nof game than does Lucifer. They are not the same. If you say Devil, I\nread Devil. If you say Lucifer, I read Lucifer. It helps to say what you\nmean as much as you can---it would save us all a lot of words. :)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's fairly standard in Christian tradition to see 'Lucifer' and\n'Devil/Satan' as different names for the same figure. I'd agree that\nin origin they are different (and other diabolic titles, like\n'Beelzebub', are different in origin again) but I don't think Lee is\nbeing unreasonable in running them together here." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-10T21:30:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I completely agree with Andrew. The Devil has many names, and\nadmittedly each of them has a different flavor as to how he is\ncharacterized. But if you say \"Lucifer\" to an average American he'll\nequate that with the \"devil\" who goes around seeking to steal or buy\nsouls, as well as Satan, Old Nick, etc.\n\n(On the other hand, exactly this distinction was made in the rather\nbrilliant [and British] _Hellblazer_ comic. After Lucifer resigned\nfrom his post, the Devil -- Satan -- took up the job.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 1:23 PM, Andrew Mason\n wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee, I'm not trying to be unfair. The Devil runs a very different kind\nof game than does Lucifer. They are not the same. If you say Devil, I\nread Devil. If you say Lucifer, I read Lucifer. It helps to say what you\nmean as much as you can---it would save us all a lot of words. :)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's fairly standard in Christian tradition to see 'Lucifer' and\n'Devil/Satan' as different names for the same figure. I'd agree that\nin origin they are different (and other diabolic titles, like\n'Beelzebub', are different in origin again) but I don't think Lee is\nbeing unreasonable in running them together here.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-10T21:38:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n\nI don't mean to ignore those levels but they have been explored. I am tracking the Father Inire as\nFallen Angel/Devil/Goat/Monkey god Dionysus/Demiurge level because it has been almost universally ignored\nand I think it provides a framework for much new insight." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aha! This makes things a lot clearer to me,because it illuminates\nsomething I hadn't grasped earlier; you see Dionysus as a negative\nfigure. (I take it this is so, if you put him in this list. 'Devil'\netc, clearly are; 'demiurge' may or may not be, but in the gnostic\ntradition, which I think you're alluding to, he is.)\n\nI am not convinced. Consider this; you see the inhumi as related to\nDionysus because, among other things, their acquiring human spirits by\ndrinking blood is analogous to the devotees of Dionysus acquiring his\nspirit by drinking wine. I agree; there is such an analogy. But\nDionysus is not the first god to come to my mind in this context.\nThere is another god, undoubtedly referenced in _Long Sun_ and _Short\nSun_, who imparts his spirit to his followers when they drink wine\nwhich is also his blood. So I think the Dionysus references are part\nof the Dionysus/Christ analogy, which others have used as well." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D02A344.4020202@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-10T22:01:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think it's unreasonable either. I'm only saying he's going to \nhave to choose one of them before he or anyone else gets very far in \nlooking for resemblances. They are well-known literary characters with \nvery different traits and habits.\n\nOr should we start looking for a scene where someone has a fiddle-off \nwith a mysterious stranger down in Georgia? ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/10/2010 4:23 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee, I'm not trying to be unfair. The Devil runs a very different kind\nof game than does Lucifer. They are not the same. If you say Devil, I\nread Devil. If you say Lucifer, I read Lucifer. It helps to say what you\nmean as much as you can---it would save us all a lot of words. :)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's fairly standard in Christian tradition to see 'Lucifer' and\n'Devil/Satan' as different names for the same figure. I'd agree that\nin origin they are different (and other diabolic titles, like\n'Beelzebub', are different in origin again) but I don't think Lee is\nbeing unreasonable in running them together here.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D02A41F.8010003@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-10T22:05:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hah! I wouldn't take it that far.\n\nBut Lee has a point---this is getting like the \"vine\" discussion. The \nopinion of the average American is hardly relevant here. Has he or she \nread Paradise Lost? No.\n\nSome would posit Satan (who thankfully has not come up yet) as an \neternal source of evil. Lucifer was a proud rebel who became evil. They \njust aren't the same." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/10/2010 4:30 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nI completely agree with Andrew. The Devil has many names, and\nadmittedly each of them has a different flavor as to how he is\ncharacterized. But if you say \"Lucifer\" to an average American he'll\nequate that with the \"devil\" who goes around seeking to steal or buy\nsouls, as well as Satan, Old Nick, etc.\n\n(On the other hand, exactly this distinction was made in the rather\nbrilliant [and British] _Hellblazer_ comic. After Lucifer resigned\nfrom his post, the Devil -- Satan -- took up the job.)\n\nOn Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 1:23 PM, Andrew Mason\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Lee, I'm not trying to be unfair. The Devil runs a very different kind\nof game than does Lucifer. They are not the same. If you say Devil, I\nread Devil. If you say Lucifer, I read Lucifer. It helps to say what you\nmean as much as you can---it would save us all a lot of words. :)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's fairly standard in Christian tradition to see 'Lucifer' and\n'Devil/Satan' as different names for the same figure. I'd agree that\nin origin they are different (and other diabolic titles, like\n'Beelzebub', are different in origin again) but I don't think Lee is\nbeing unreasonable in running them together here.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-10T22:23:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D02A41F.8010003@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff- It's possible that you don't know enough to see the value in distinctions between them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, I admit that. On the other hand it's possible you know too much of them and as Andrew and Dan'l suggest, \nrequiring me to distinguish them in every mention would wear out my slash button, already worn out from\nPan/Dionysus/Faunus stuff. Sorry if I sound frazzled. I am. It is a lot of effort for me to convert complex \nmental images into brief, concise verbal constructions. All while at work. Sheesh. Also, okay, on Abaddon-hell\nissue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tzadkiel's largest form (that we see) is described as big as an island. Erebus and Abaia are a bit smaller, \nbeing only the size of mountains." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David- I don't understand.\n\nIn the first four books we see an island-sized Tzadkiel in the Mirror Bookknow. We know there are large \ncreatures in the sea as large as mountains and we know of undines and somehow Wolfe was expecting us to deduce \nfar too much about what was going on. So he wrote UotNS and showed us Tzadkiel and his ship. (maybe there is an\neven bigger, planet-sized Tzadkiel that we don't see, who knows).\n \nSeverian notes that Father Inire's portals resemble Tzadkiel's but are inferior. To me this says what happens on \nTzadkiel's ship for an angel is what happens on Urth for fallen angels, but inferior. Tzadkiel is able to \nbreak off pieces of himself in varying sizes, shapes, species and genders. So the fallen angels on Urth can\ndo the same but in an inferior way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure, but you said Erebus controls Inire. Who controls the Devil, or the Serpent, or Lucifer? No one. \nYou need to set up a model and stick to it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't understand. Tzadkiel has pieces of himself running around in various shapes and sizes doing his will.\nAbaia/Erebus also. One is Father Inire. Please don't demand exact, specified descriptions of mental constructs\nof things Gene Wolfe has left purposefully incomprehensible (as superhuman beings must be). It isn't fair. I can't\nmake my theory fit your views and everyone else's. Hard enough to get my own ideas out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Cumaean is a possibility for fallenness, but then who is she? Is she also the Devil? Is she Inire?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nA very good question. I don't know but my theory allows for two possibilities. Mythologically, she could be\nlike a sister to Inire. One of Inire's agents resemble Charon, son of Erebus and Night. Noctua is the daughter\nof Abaia/Erebus and Night in the story. If she is meant to be more of a Gnostic symbol she is the female aspect\nof the multi-faced, hermaprohoditic, lord of all opposites, Dionysus/Great God Pan. So, in this case more like a\npart of Father Inire. who can tell anyway with superhuman creatures who can reproduce both sexually and asexually.\nThey are, at the end of the day, incomprehensible to us." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason- Gerry, I totlally agree with your general point that Tzadkiel's ship isn't the only means of interstellar >transport, but I'm worried about some of the details." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI'm going to leave B, F and O's ship out of the conversation. It could be interstellar but we don't see that. It could be\na tender which connects solar system travel to Tzadkiel's ship. I think the text supports that idea better.\n \nTyphon's empire had interstellar ships but they don't work or exist any more that we see. I think this ties into the \nsense some of us get of Inire being an earth-bound god, like Fenrir or Prometheus or Azazel or immortal Typhon himself \nunder the rock. Yes, I see a connection between Father Inire and Typhon but I can't get into that yet.\n \nI think Hethor almost surely served on Tzadkiel's ship as he speaks of \"demon-haunted mirror sails\". Michael Andre-\nDriussi correctly, I think, sees sail scraps as the source of Hethor's portable mirrors. Later I will try to post\nsome of Hethor's rantings about his poppet-doll (almost surely a human girl but a toy to him) his duties as ship cook\nbosun, first mate and captain but how foul traitors took his captaincy etc. I see Inire as Hethor on the ship and I see\na parallel between his rantings and the Lucifer-God relationship. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D02B076.5040200@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-10T22:57:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/10/2010 5:23 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff- It's possible that you don't know enough to see the value in distinctions between them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, I admit that. On the other hand it's possible you know too much of them and as Andrew and Dan'l suggest,\nrequiring me to distinguish them in every mention would wear out my slash button, already worn out from\nPan/Dionysus/Faunus stuff. Sorry if I sound frazzled. I am. It is a lot of effort for me to convert complex\nmental images into brief, concise verbal constructions. All while at work. Sheesh. Also, okay, on Abaddon-hell\nissue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're doing all this at work? No wonder! ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tzadkiel's largest form (that we see) is described as big as an island. Erebus and Abaia are a bit smaller,\nbeing only the size of mountains." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David- I don't understand.\n\nIn the first four books we see an island-sized Tzadkiel in the Mirror Bookknow. We know there are large\ncreatures in the sea as large as mountains and we know of undines and somehow Wolfe was expecting us to deduce\nfar too much about what was going on. So he wrote UotNS and showed us Tzadkiel and his ship. (maybe there is an\neven bigger, planet-sized Tzadkiel that we don't see, who knows).\n\nSeverian notes that Father Inire's portals resemble Tzadkiel's but are inferior. To me this says what happens on\nTzadkiel's ship for an angel is what happens on Urth for fallen angels, but inferior. Tzadkiel is able to\nbreak off pieces of himself in varying sizes, shapes, species and genders. So the fallen angels on Urth can\ndo the same but in an inferior way." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK. I see that as a huge leap, assuming unrelated abilities to be \nparallel, but now I see why you think Inire can be a shapeshifter. If \nthere are angels in BotNS (never to be doubted) and fallen ones as well, \nthen the abilities of the fallen ones must be perverse imitations of the \noriginal. I just assumed they are different species, but that's me.\n\nWhat then is the corresponding ability in Inire, as far as splitting off?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sure, but you said Erebus controls Inire. Who controls the Devil, or the Serpent, or Lucifer? No one.\nYou need to set up a model and stick to it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't understand. Tzadkiel has pieces of himself running around in various shapes and sizes doing his will.\nAbaia/Erebus also. One is Father Inire. Please don't demand exact, specified descriptions of mental constructs\nof things Gene Wolfe has left purposefully incomprehensible (as superhuman beings must be). It isn't fair. I can't\nmake my theory fit your views and everyone else's. Hard enough to get my own ideas out." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you make a reference to a known thing in the real world, sooner or \nlater you must consider its particulars. If I say I know a man with one \neye like Odin, I don't need to prove other correspondences. But that's a \ncomparison.\n\nOTOH, if I say a man is Odin, he must have a crow on his shoulder as well.\n\nI'm pointing out to you that none of the figures of the Devil is the \nservant of another, except maybe God. So any Inire = Devil, Erebus = \nMaster of the Devil connection just doesn't wash, unless Erebus is God." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Cumaean is a possibility for fallenness, but then who is she? Is she also the Devil? Is she Inire?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A very good question. I don't know but my theory allows for two possibilities. Mythologically, she could be\nlike a sister to Inire. One of Inire's agents resemble Charon, son of Erebus and Night. Noctua is the daughter\nof Abaia/Erebus and Night in the story. If she is meant to be more of a Gnostic symbol she is the female aspect\nof the multi-faced, hermaprohoditic, lord of all opposites, Dionysus/Great God Pan. So, in this case more like a\npart of Father Inire. who can tell anyway with superhuman creatures who can reproduce both sexually and asexually.\nThey are, at the end of the day, incomprehensible to us.\n\nAgain, I have to point out that the Devil is always unitary---always \nalone. He has no sister." } ] }, { "message_id": "<54A32AFB-2BC9-40F5-8ADF-5B311012DCD5@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-10T23:01:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D02B076.5040200@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 10, 2010, at 4:57 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nIf you make a reference to a known thing in the real world, sooner or later you must consider its particulars. If I say I know a man with one eye like Odin, I don't need to prove other correspondences. But that's a comparison.\n\nOTOH, if I say a man is Odin, he must have a crow on his shoulder as well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, so you agree that Silk is Odin.\n\nGood to know.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<316841.61502.qm@web114705.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-10T23:07:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D028CBE.6050300@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What I think is the best piece of evidence is in chapter 11 of /Soldier of the \nMist/, after Oior saves Latro from the bowman Spu (which Borski says Jeremy \nCrampton glossed as \"eye\"), when?Latro sees Spu dead. “Spu points to his eye and \ncalls Latro \"Neurian\", that is, werewolf. Has Spu recognized Latro as a \nwerewolf?” (Or could he only mean that he recognized Latro as Oior's sworn \nbrother and concludes that he's Oior's fellow werewolf? As we find out later, \nOior is a Neurian, but my alternative seems a bit doubtful.)\n\nAlso, Borski suggests that the unexplained \"wolf's tooth\" that the Mother gave \nLatro, according to Apollo (Chapter 2) and Kore (Chapter 19) is the curse of \nlycanthropy.\n\nOther things work as well if Latro is a werewolf as if he isn't. Latro could \nmean \"I bark\". His real name, Lucius, sounds like the Greek word for \"wolf\". \nHe describes himself as \"loping\" and \"trotting\" (Chapter 41). And when?Latro \nmeets the Triple Goddess, who calls herself the Queen of the Neurians (a point \nBorski misses), he says, \"My teeth warred in my mouth, the teeth above against \nthe teeth below\"--chattering with fear, or starting to transform (Chapter 22).\n\nBorski's ideas of evidence are very different from mine, but this is way better \nthan Snow White, you wanna know my opinion.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D02B3E2.7040302@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-10T23:12:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<54A32AFB-2BC9-40F5-8ADF-5B311012DCD5@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the crow is stronger than the eye, for sure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/10/2010 6:01 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\nOn Dec 10, 2010, at 4:57 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If you make a reference to a known thing in the real world, sooner or later you must consider its particulars. If I say I know a man with one eye like Odin, I don't need to prove other correspondences. But that's a comparison.\n\nOTOH, if I say a man is Odin, he must have a crow on his shoulder as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah, so you agree that Silk is Odin.\n\nGood to know.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-10T23:17:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D02B3E2.7040302@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 10, 2010, at 5:12 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nWell, the crow is stronger than the eye, for sure." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why IS a raven like a writing-desk, anyway?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D02BFD1.2070900@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-11T00:03:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Both have ink and feathers on them?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/10/2010 6:17 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\nOn Dec 10, 2010, at 5:12 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, the crow is stronger than the eye, for sure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why IS a raven like a writing-desk, anyway?\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 101210-0, 12/10/2010\nTested on: 12/10/2010 6:18:34 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D02C0BA.9080604@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-11T00:07:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<316841.61502.qm@web114705.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It especially makes sense if you consider the curse to be an affliction \nthat has its own rules, hidden from us. If it's not tied to the full \nmoon, nor a nightly occurrence, it can come and go as Wolfe pleases. \nIt's hard to disprove." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/10/2010 6:07 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nWhat I think is the best piece of evidence is in chapter 11 of \n/Soldier of the Mist/, after Oior saves Latro from the bowman Spu \n(which Borski says Jeremy Crampton glossed as \"eye\"), when Latro sees \nSpu dead. Spu points to his eye and calls Latro \"Neurian\", that is, \nwerewolf. Has Spu recognized Latro as a werewolf? (Or could he only \nmean that he recognized Latro as Oior's sworn brother and concludes \nthat he's Oior's fellow werewolf? As we find out later, Oior is a \nNeurian, but my alternative seems a bit doubtful.)\nAlso, Borski suggests that the unexplained \"wolf's tooth\" that the \nMother gave Latro, according to Apollo (Chapter 2) and Kore (Chapter \n19) is the curse of lycanthropy.\nOther things work as well if Latro is a werewolf as if he isn't. \nLatro could mean \"I bark\". His real name, Lucius, sounds like the \nGreek word for \"wolf\". He describes himself as \"loping\" and \n\"trotting\" (Chapter 41). And when Latro meets the Triple Goddess, who \ncalls herself the Queen of the Neurians (a point Borski misses), he \nsays, \"My teeth warred in my mouth, the teeth above against the teeth \nbelow\"--chattering with fear, or starting to transform (Chapter 22).\nBorski's ideas of evidence are very different from mine, but this is \nway better than Snow White, you wanna know my opinion.\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-11T00:11:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D02BFD1.2070900@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The answer I gave twenty years ago and appears in various faqs:\n\nThey both have inky quills." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 4:03 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nBoth have ink and feathers on them?\n\nOn 12/10/2010 6:17 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Dec 10, 2010, at 5:12 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, the crow is stronger than the eye, for sure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why IS a raven like a writing-desk, anyway?\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 101210-0, 12/10/2010\nTested on: 12/10/2010 6:18:34 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 101210-1, 12/10/2010\nTested on: 12/10/2010 7:03:29 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D02C781.6030003@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-11T00:36:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D029831.5020601@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (10-12-2010 21:14):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/10/2010 4:04 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think (in BotNS) when a portion of Tzadkiel truly falls and becomes\nseparated from angelic grace (and leaves the ship for good) we can tell\nbecause it becomes ugly. Hence Hethor, Inire and The Cumaean." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Cumaean is a possibility for fallenness, but then who is she? Is she\n also the Devil? Is she Inire?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've been waiting for an opportunity to ask the following:\n\n\"- What the hell is the purpose of the Cumaean.\"\n\n\nNow isn't it beautiful when everybody follows time-hallowed quoting conventions." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D02C7D0.5070204@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-11T00:37:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andrew Mason wrote (10-12-2010 21:23):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee, I'm not trying to be unfair. The Devil runs a very different kind\nof game than does Lucifer. They are not the same. If you say Devil, I\nread Devil. If you say Lucifer, I read Lucifer. It helps to say what you\nmean as much as you can---it would save us all a lot of words. :)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's fairly standard in Christian tradition to see 'Lucifer' and\n'Devil/Satan' as different names for the same figure. I'd agree that\nin origin they are different (and other diabolic titles, like\n'Beelzebub', are different in origin again) but I don't think Lee is\nbeing unreasonable in running them together here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The problem, as I see it, is that Lee is on to philosophical concepts, and \nwithin philosophy those two are not the same." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D02C8CE.5070702@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-11T00:41:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D02C781.6030003@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a creative use of \"time-hallowed.\" ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/10/2010 7:36 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (10-12-2010 21:14):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/10/2010 4:04 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think (in BotNS) when a portion of Tzadkiel truly falls and becomes\nseparated from angelic grace (and leaves the ship for good) we can tell\nbecause it becomes ugly. Hence Hethor, Inire and The Cumaean." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Cumaean is a possibility for fallenness, but then who is she? Is she\n also the Devil? Is she Inire?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've been waiting for an opportunity to ask the following:\n\n\"- What the hell is the purpose of the Cumaean.\"\n\n\nNow isn't it beautiful when everybody follows time-hallowed quoting \nconventions.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D02C92E.6070904@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-11T00:43:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D02C7D0.5070204@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you're saying they represent different things. I would agree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/10/2010 7:37 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nAndrew Mason wrote (10-12-2010 21:23):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Lee, I'm not trying to be unfair. The Devil runs a very different kind\nof game than does Lucifer. They are not the same. If you say Devil, I\nread Devil. If you say Lucifer, I read Lucifer. It helps to say what \nyou\nmean as much as you can---it would save us all a lot of words. :)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's fairly standard in Christian tradition to see 'Lucifer' and\n'Devil/Satan' as different names for the same figure. I'd agree that\nin origin they are different (and other diabolic titles, like\n'Beelzebub', are different in origin again) but I don't think Lee is\nbeing unreasonable in running them together here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The problem, as I see it, is that Lee is on to philosophical concepts, \nand within philosophy those two are not the same.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D02CA3D.2050507@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-11T00:47:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:\nWhy IS a raven like a writing-desk, anyway?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nThe answer I gave twenty years ago and appears in various faqs:\nThey both have inky quills." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " From Cecil Adams:\nhttp://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1173/why-is-a-raven-like-a-writing-desk\n\nLewis Carroll himself got bugged about this so much that he was moved to \nwrite the following in the preface to the 1896 edition of his book:\n\n Enquiries have been so often addressed to me, as to whether any\n answer to the Hatter's Riddle can be imagined, that I may as well\n put on record here what seems to me to be a fairly appropriate\n answer, viz: 'Because it can produce a few notes, tho they are\n /very/ flat; and it is never put with the wrong end in front!' This,\n however, is merely an afterthought; the Riddle, as originally\n invented, had no answer at all.\n\nDid this discourage people? No. They figured, that dope Carroll, he's \ntoo dumb to figure out his own riddle, setting aside the halfhearted \nattempt just quoted. So they ventured answers of their own, some of the \nmore notable of which are recorded in Martin Gardner's /The Annotated \nAlice/ and /More Annotated Alice/:\n\n * Because the notes for which they are noted are not noted for being\n musical notes. (Sam Loyd, 1914)\n * Because Poe wrote on both. (Ibid)\n * Because there is a B in both and an N in neither. (Aldous Huxley,\n 1928)\n * Because it slopes with a flap. (Cyril Pearson, undated)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D02CB1C.6000400@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-11T00:51:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<54A32AFB-2BC9-40F5-8ADF-5B311012DCD5@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nIf you make a reference to a known thing in the real world, sooner or later you must consider its particulars. If I say I know a man with one eye like Odin, I don't need to prove other correspondences. But that's a comparison.\nOTOH, if I say a man is Odin, he must have a crow on his shoulder as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:\nAh, so you agree that Silk is Odin.\nGood to know." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Properly, Silk BECAME Odin, just as Horn became Silk.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D02CDE2.5080401@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-11T01:03:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D029831.5020601@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff-\nIt's possible that you don't know enough to see the value in \ndistinctions between them. The character Lucifer is largely derived \nfrom Milton. The Devil is an American folk character who trades in \nsouls. And so on. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Milton didn't invent Lucifer. I don't know exactly when Isaiah \n14:12 was first linked to Satan/the Devil but it goes back at least to \nSt. Jerome. And the Gospels use Satan and the Devil interchangeably.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-11T04:05:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D02CDE2.5080401@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "OTOH, if I say a man is Odin, he must have a crow on his shoulder as well.\nAh, so you agree that Silk is Odin." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nFor the record this is definitely NOT my line of thinking. My theory works best\n(as it was largely inspired by) the words of Gene Wolfe in his James Jordan interview.\nFor me, this is not our universe but a previous iteration of it. Severian is not Christ\nbut a Christ-figure. Father Inire is not Dionysus/Pan/Satan/Lucifer etc. he is a silver-\ntongued devil-figure in the model of various evil presences from Earth. By the Christ-model\nwe can understand some things about Severian. Same principle for Father Inire.\n \nIt is clear to me that Gene Wolfe considers pagan gods and angels and demons to be real entities\nin some way. And part of their nature is that they are frickin' BIG! To interact with humans they\nmust have a way of changing size. I think Wolfe favors breaking into smaller pieces over shrinking the\ntotal. This allows one entity to do lots of things at once, whisper in multiple kings' ears, etc.\n\n \nAntonio P. Marques: \"- What the hell is the purpose of the Cumaean.\"\n \nAn excellent question I think. But I'd rather expand it to, \"what the hell is the purpose of all the \nattention showered on Severian by all these Urthly alien/pagan god weirdos? First I'd like to point \nout that I see Severian as a Hercules-figure more than a Christ-figure. His life parallels Hercules in\nso many ways I've listed elsewhere I think. The name Nessus is an impossible-to-mistake clue and I detect\nhints of the 12 Labors in many of Severian's adventures; taming bulls, killing multi- headed monsters, \ncapturing a special deer (well, gazelle, which is what \"Dorcas\" means); the cleansing of the Vincula/Augean \nStables has already been mentioned. Perhaps there were a few more. Carry Cerberus out of Hades? hm.....\nOf interest...one of Hercules' alternate names is Palaemon. Perhaps he was that first Severian...\n \nHowever, I think there is one thing Christ could do that no Greek/Roman heroes or gods were able to fully \ndo, which is a true resurrection of the dead to life. When I look at the many adventures Severian was steered \ntoward on his journey, I find a common theme over and over- true resurrection of the dead. Dorcas, himself, \nThecla, Typhon, Miles, Zama. Tzadkiel had a pretty good way of doing that with eidolons but it wasn't true \nresurrection. Vodalus, The Cumaean, Father Inire, the Old Leech and Ceryx (these last two are also part of \nthe alien/pagan god crowd) all had inferior and abominable ways of resurrection. \n \nSo the purpose of all these characters was what a pagan god/fallen angel would want most from a Christ-\nfigure. The Secret of Life. So they put him in various situations in which his nascent powers would perform,\nhoping to unknowingly wrest the secret from him. Doomed to failure of course. Higher powers were using the\nsame adventures to steer Severian toward his destiny as New Sun and the cleansed Urth called Ushas. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D02FD95.9020000@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-11T04:27:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D02CDE2.5080401@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, Satan and the Devil are usually the same, and Satan and Lucifer \nwere both characters in Milton, with Lucifer becoming Satan (but not the \nDevil). The Serpent is a guise of Satan.\n\nMilton did not invent any of them, obviously---but he certainly invented \nthem as modern literary characters. You can be sure Wolfe knows these \ncharacters inside and out, and would be very careful in connecting them \nto Inire so that the desired associations might show, but none of the \nundesired ones, and not all at once.\n\nFor example, Inire is, as I said, a flatterer, and, I think you and I \nagree, Urthbound. These could be clear connections to Milton's Satan in \nthe Garden and after he was imprisoned in Hell, IIRC.\n\nBut he has no wings and no suggestion of directly fighting the Increate. \nMilton's Satan did spawn all sorts of evil, and raped one of his \ndaughters. If this is alluded to in BOTNS, it is very subtle indeed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/10/2010 8:03 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff-\nIt's possible that you don't know enough to see the value in \ndistinctions between them. The character Lucifer is largely derived \nfrom Milton. The Devil is an American folk character who trades in \nsouls. And so on. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, Milton didn't invent Lucifer. I don't know exactly when Isaiah \n14:12 was first linked to Satan/the Devil but it goes back at least to \nSt. Jerome. And the Gospels use Satan and the Devil interchangeably.\n\nu+16b9\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-11T05:10:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D02FD95.9020000@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the past I've discussed my Father Inire theory in terms of all the possibilities of\nversions of him and his relevance to Severian's family tree so I'll skip over that for now\nI'll mention that, of course, there have to be signs...marks of the beast sort of? to be able\nto identify these Father Inire minions. We know the monkey business and the bent, old stuff.\nAmong other things I'd add \"interest in resurrection of the dead\" to the list. Borski argues\nfor obscured eyes as one of the signs and I won't gainsay him.\n\nIf we take the last two it puts an interesting figure on the list for consideration: Ultan.\nThis is a pretty revered figure I think. And what's not to like? He's nice, he's a librarian\nhe's got the J.L. Borges connection going. But, with my Father Inire theory in mind, Wolfe\nputs some weird stuff in regarding Ultan that really made me wonder if they wanted to name that\nwebsite after him.\n\n1. Ultan is a curator which automatically associates him with Father Inire, who may not be the\nmost wholesome character to associate with.\n\n2. Ultan's assistant, Cyby carries a five-branched candlestick which could hint at the occult\nsymbol of the pentagram with a candle at each point.\n\n3. Ultan says that on the Feast Day, their guild marches down \"Iubar Street\" conspicuously mentioning\nthe name twice. Iubar is a Latin word invoking radiant light, a splendid, glorious appearance,\nthe morning star, and the chemical phosphorus. All these are directly related to Lucifer.\n\n4. Ultan mentions books bound in the hides of echidnes and krakens. This could mean spiny anteater\nand giant squid skins. But any mention in this story of a giant sea monster and the Mother of All\nMonsters/wife of Typhon raises a red flag for me.\n\n5. Ultan describes the entry process to their guild: A child perusing books in the Library long enough\neventually finds The Book of Gold. \"Then the librarians come, like vampires, some say, but others say\nlike the fairy godparents at a christening. They speak to the child and the child joins them....soon\nhis parents know him no more.\" Legends have both fairies and demons involved in such child snatchings.\n\n6. Ultan is especially familiar with the book Lives of the Seventeen Megatherians as well as Wonders Of\nUrth and Sky. Both books seem to deal with the monsters in the sea and their origins.\n\n7. When Severian speaks to Ultan of eating the dead, he replies, \"It is unwise to know too much about\nthese practices, though when I think of sharing the mind of a historian like Loman or Hermas...\".\nSeverian thinks Ultan must have forgotten, \"how nakedly our faces can betray our deepest feelings..by\nthe light of the candles I saw his twisted in such an agony of desire that out of decency I turned away\".\n\nOne or two of these elements I wouldn't notice as significant. All seven added together...sorta creepy.\nDid Wolfe put them all in without purpose?\n\nFWIW, in a recent search I chanced upon this, the wording and ritual for conducting Black Mass. Also pretty\ncreepy in a similar way to Master Ultan's issues, for me. http://www.angelfire.com/in4/cotf_indianapolis/rituals2.html \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D03740A.9000905@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-11T12:52:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My 2 cents ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/11/2010 12:10 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\n1. Ultan is a curator which automatically associates him with Father Inire, who may not be the\nmost wholesome character to associate with." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He's an employee of sorts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2. Ultan's assistant, Cyby carries a five-branched candlestick which could hint at the occult\nsymbol of the pentagram with a candle at each point." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A pentagram is a pentagram, and a row is a row. The number 5 is probably \nmore to the point, and that is what the pentagram represents anyway. \nMan, among other things. God's grace is another." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3. Ultan says that on the Feast Day, their guild marches down \"Iubar Street\" conspicuously mentioning\nthe name twice. Iubar is a Latin word invoking radiant light, a splendid, glorious appearance,\nthe morning star, and the chemical phosphorus. All these are directly related to Lucifer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good! Lucifer, not Satan." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4. Ultan mentions books bound in the hides of echidnes and krakens. This could mean spiny anteater\nand giant squid skins. But any mention in this story of a giant sea monster and the Mother of All\nMonsters/wife of Typhon raises a red flag for me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fair enough, although these emerge more in Long Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "5. Ultan describes the entry process to their guild: A child perusing books in the Library long enough\neventually finds The Book of Gold. \"Then the librarians come, like vampires, some say, but others say\nlike the fairy godparents at a christening. They speak to the child and the child joins them....soon\nhis parents know him no more.\" Legends have both fairies and demons involved in such child snatchings." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. However, recall that BOTNS is meant to be taken as the (or a) \nGolden Book, which does the same thing. Books are another world, like \nthe Celtic Otherworld; they are important in their own right and that \ncan explain this. Still, the Faerie reference is strong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "6. Ultan is especially familiar with the book Lives of the Seventeen Megatherians as well as Wonders Of\nUrth and Sky. Both books seem to deal with the monsters in the sea and their origins." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or, Ultan knows his myths because he knows his books." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "7. When Severian speaks to Ultan of eating the dead, he replies, \"It is unwise to know too much about\nthese practices, though when I think of sharing the mind of a historian like Loman or Hermas...\".\nSeverian thinks Ultan must have forgotten, \"how nakedly our faces can betray our deepest feelings..by\nthe light of the candles I saw his twisted in such an agony of desire that out of decency I turned away\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ultan desires exactly what he says he does, and for the reason he gives. \nHe loves books, and books are a way of sharing minds that does NOT \ninvolve cannibalism. Really, this is Ultan as anti-cannibal, not as \ncannibal." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One or two of these elements I wouldn't notice as significant. All seven added together...sorta creepy.\nDid Wolfe put them all in without purpose?\n\nFWIW, in a recent search I chanced upon this, the wording and ritual for conducting Black Mass. Also pretty\ncreepy in a similar way to Master Ultan's issues, for me. http://www.angelfire.com/in4/cotf_indianapolis/rituals2.html \t\t \t \t\nThis idea of Satanism is a very recent and very silly invention. So is \nthe pentagram as a symbol of Satan. More to the point, it is not literary.\n\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-11T13:19:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D03740A.9000905@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll wrap up discussion of my Father Inire theory (which goes beyond just that character of course)\nby re-mentioning that its purpose for me is as a way of broadly reversing the total perception of\nwhat is going on and to explain little weird thing that happen in the story.\n \nMost of the little weird things are sexual in nature. I consider that Severian is serving as an avatar\nfor Gene WOlfe himself. In initial readings I got the impression that Severian is a pretty \"normal\" \nyoung man when it comes to 20th century American sexual standards. Heterosexual, gentlemanly but a bit \nopportunistic. Perhaps going a little too far when under the influence, as with Jolenta. But I think\na lot of more alternative sexual experiences occur which can be understood viewing them from the \nperspective of ancient Greeks, their gods and other people not subject to Christian sexual mores.\n \nSeverian seems pretty open about his sexual exploits but he is inexplicably coy about his sexual\nencounters with Thecla. We know something is going on in the beginning because she tells him to \nput his shirt back on, at one point. But Severian won't openly admit what happened. In fact we get\nour best information about the situation from Thecla herself as she takes over Severian's writing\nhere and there. I think Thecla is implied to be a family member of Severian's, perhaps a cousin,\nand incest (even mild) is not something Severian will openly discuss.\n \nThis is the reason Severian won't openly reveal that he knows Dorcas is his grandmother. He can't because\nhe's already admitted sexual contact. Hardly revelatory that this relationship has Oedipal connotaions\nbut I interpret them less in a psychological way and more mythological. It reveals a modeling of the story\non Greek heroes and Greek family curses. Agilus quite strongly suggests, without being accused, that he \nand his twin Agia are lovers. What purpose does this serve the story? For me it marks the twins as secret\nmembers of Severian's incest-cursed family.\n \nSeverian's physical description of Agilus is rather homoerotic in nature. In Severian's descriptions of his \nlife in the Torturer's Guild, there is no mention of the pederasty, buggery and sexual dominance games which\nwould be expected in such a cloistered, all-male society. We are expected to believe Severian's first sexual\nexperience was at age 20 with a prostitute. He is awkward with the prostitute, as surely it is his first time\nwith a woman. But the suggestion that Severian used bondage and submission in that encounter hints that he\nassociates sex with these things. (later, from Thecla he learned gentle side of sex, as she describes)\n \nOne thing that always used to befuddle me was why WOlfe has Typhon \"nursing an erection\" during his encounter\nwith Severian (the scene is emphasized in Long Sun where a painting of Pas has him nursing two erections; two \nheads? heh). If we see Typhon as modeled after bisexual Alexander (and/or the bisexual Greek gods) it starts to\nmake sense. We today sometimes think of homosexuality as an effeminate expression. But in ancient days there was\nan open Apollonian expression of it which was pure alpha male dominating a submissive partner. Typhon has his\nerection as he is about to pummel Severian into submission as his \"Second\", just as Severian did to Eata\npreviously.\n \nPerhaps the crowning example of this sort of Wolfean sexual disguise is found in one key sentence- (gr, can't\nfind it right now but it is something like:)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"There had been no sexual play between me and the boy [Little Severian] as there had been, I believe between\nDorcas and Jolenta\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThat is quite a bombshell statement. And by hitting us with an unsuspected lesbian relationship, Wolfe misdirects\nus from the fact that Severian has just denied pedophilic tendencies when previously few readers would have thought\nhim capable of them. Severian makes another unsolicited denial of pederasty to a Pelerine, later.\n \nWhy does Wolfe make Dorcas and Jolenta lesbians? What does that contribute to the story? We already know Jolenta is \nirresistable to men and many women. But Jolenta herself shows no sexual interest in anyone, (aside from ,perhaps Dr. \nTalos) Now we have her having sex not only with Severian but also Dorcas. I take this, among other bits of evidence, \nto mean that Jolenta is the stage name of Severian's missing witch sister. The love triange of Severian, Dorcas and \nJolenta is the fullest expression of their family's incest curse.\n \n \n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-11T13:56:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff- My 2 cents ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for the interest in my theory and the responses to it. They are appreciated and\nhelpful. I'm sure the admonitions are meant as a reminder to me and other readers\nhere to not get too lost in one's over-thought personal vision.\n \nAs I've tried to express previously, this is not a concern for me. I spent 20 \nyears reading BotNS on the surface level and I haven't lost that perspective.\nA 5 pronged candlestick can be just a light source. Ultan can be seen as a venerated \nservant of the Autarch. Severian could really be a 20 year old virgin.\n \nI always knew BotNS had a Secret House built within it, like the House Absolute. I just \ncouldn't see it very clearly. It was the participants on this Board and their contributions\nwhich allowed me to see the Old Crone with high definition and detail, within the picture of \nthe Young Lady, and I'll be eternally grateful for that. I wouldn't expect my view of the Old \nCrone to be exactly like anyone else's. But if my description of her can help anyone else, as I \nhave been helped, then it has all been worth it. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D03AEF6.7080405@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-11T17:03:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/11/2010 8:19 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nI'll wrap up discussion of my Father Inire theory (which goes beyond just that character of course)\nby re-mentioning that its purpose for me is as a way of broadly reversing the total perception of\nwhat is going on and to explain little weird thing that happen in the story.\n\nMost of the little weird things are sexual in nature. I consider that Severian is serving as an avatar\nfor Gene WOlfe himself. In initial readings I got the impression that Severian is a pretty \"normal\"\nyoung man when it comes to 20th century American sexual standards. Heterosexual, gentlemanly but a bit\nopportunistic. Perhaps going a little too far when under the influence, as with Jolenta. But I think\na lot of more alternative sexual experiences occur which can be understood viewing them from the\nperspective of ancient Greeks, their gods and other people not subject to Christian sexual mores.\n\nSeverian seems pretty open about his sexual exploits but he is inexplicably coy about his sexual\nencounters with Thecla. We know something is going on in the beginning because she tells him to\nput his shirt back on, at one point. But Severian won't openly admit what happened. In fact we get\nour best information about the situation from Thecla herself as she takes over Severian's writing\nhere and there. I think Thecla is implied to be a family member of Severian's, perhaps a cousin,\nand incest (even mild) is not something Severian will openly discuss.\n\nThis is the reason Severian won't openly reveal that he knows Dorcas is his grandmother. He can't because\nhe's already admitted sexual contact. Hardly revelatory that this relationship has Oedipal connotaions\nbut I interpret them less in a psychological way and more mythological. It reveals a modeling of the story\non Greek heroes and Greek family curses. Agilus quite strongly suggests, without being accused, that he\nand his twin Agia are lovers. What purpose does this serve the story? For me it marks the twins as secret\nmembers of Severian's incest-cursed family." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm with you up until the last sentence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian's physical description of Agilus is rather homoerotic in nature. In Severian's descriptions of his\nlife in the Torturer's Guild, there is no mention of the pederasty, buggery and sexual dominance games which\nwould be expected in such a cloistered, all-male society. We are expected to believe Severian's first sexual\nexperience was at age 20 with a prostitute. He is awkward with the prostitute, as surely it is his first time\nwith a woman. But the suggestion that Severian used bondage and submission in that encounter hints that he\nassociates sex with these things. (later, from Thecla he learned gentle side of sex, as she describes)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Commonwealth is a place where all sorts of sex are common, where \nthere may no actual slaves but people are in fact enslaved and \ndominated, and you are correct to point out the sexual dimension. Some \nthings might not be spoken of lightly and openly, but they are done all \nthe time.\n\nSeverian grew up in an environment that was part boy's school (oh, the \ntales British schoolboys can tell) and part prison. This is important, \nbecause although Severian de-emphasizes this aspect of being a torturer, \nWolfe does not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One thing that always used to befuddle me was why WOlfe has Typhon \"nursing an erection\" during his encounter\nwith Severian (the scene is emphasized in Long Sun where a painting of Pas has him nursing two erections; two\nheads? heh). If we see Typhon as modeled after bisexual Alexander (and/or the bisexual Greek gods) it starts to\nmake sense. We today sometimes think of homosexuality as an effeminate expression. But in ancient days there was\nan open Apollonian expression of it which was pure alpha male dominating a submissive partner. Typhon has his\nerection as he is about to pummel Severian into submission as his \"Second\", just as Severian did to Eata\npreviously." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a surprising scene at first. It's not strictly necessary that \nTyphon be focusing his ravenous, egocentric desire on Severian (he has \nafter all just been rehydrated and must have a terrible morning boner), \nbut he is indeed focused on him. It need not be homosexual, but Typhon \nplainly gets off on dominance." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps the crowning example of this sort of Wolfean sexual disguise is found in one key sentence- (gr, can't\nfind it right now but it is something like:)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"There had been no sexual play between me and the boy [Little Severian] as there had been, I believe between\nDorcas and Jolenta\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is quite a bombshell statement. And by hitting us with an unsuspected lesbian relationship, Wolfe misdirects\nus from the fact that Severian has just denied pedophilic tendencies when previously few readers would have thought\nhim capable of them. Severian makes another unsolicited denial of pederasty to a Pelerine, later." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The quote is\n\nAfter such thoughts, the memory of his death would come to my mind as \nnight had come to the mountain, a wave of blackness and despair. I knew \nthen how Dorcas had felt when Jolenta died. There had been no sexual \nplay between the boy and me, as I believe there had at some time been \nbetween Dorcas and Jolenta; but then it had never been their fleshly \nlove that had aroused my jealousy. The depth of my feeling for the boy \nhad beenas great as Dorcas's for Jolenta, surely (and surely greater far \nthan Jolenta's for Dorcas).\n\nSeverian's world does not have our concepts of human rights.\n\nThe comparison is to a close and partially sexual relationship. There is \nnothing \"lesbian\" about Dorcas and Jolenta---it is a pure physical \nattraction they have that transcends gender. I read this the opposite \nway---Severian denies using the boy because plenty of men in his world \nwould. He's more comfortable denying child rape than denying incest. \nIt's like an inmate of a prison saying of his cellmate, \"We didn't have \nsex but we were like a couple for 10 years together in that cell.\" For \nSeverian, this is something like, \"She was my slave, yes, but I loved her.\"\n\n\"He was just a boy I picked up in my journeys, but I loved him.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why does Wolfe make Dorcas and Jolenta lesbians? What does that contribute to the story? We already know Jolenta is\nirresistable to men and many women. But Jolenta herself shows no sexual interest in anyone, (aside from ,perhaps Dr.\nTalos) Now we have her having sex not only with Severian but also Dorcas. I take this, among other bits of evidence,\nto mean that Jolenta is the stage name of Severian's missing witch sister. The love triange of Severian, Dorcas and\nJolenta is the fullest expression of their family's incest curse.\n\n\n\n \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D03AF9B.4000106@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-11T17:06:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm glad you don't take my questioning too personally!\n\nHere's a quick and dirty Googled bit on the number 5:\n\nNow as we approach the meaning of Five we begin to extend ourselves even \nfurther into the outer reaches of numerology. Each number expanding out \nfrom One represents a container holding all its predecessors within its \nvibration.\n\nMeaning, the number five is a container that holds the energy of One \n, Two \n, Three \n and Four \n. All of the \n*tumultuousness and beneficence* found in these numbers mixed up into \nthe Five. Yeah, it's a head-trip to consider the godly digits embodied \ninto one number.\n\nAnd so the meaning of Five expresses that expansiveness and its ability \nto know itself as a whole through the interaction of its essential parts.\n\nEssentially, Five is the first of digits that is in a constant \n(sometimes /driven/) state of *balancing its own equation.*\n\nThe meaning of Five gets more dicey when we recognize its association \nwith humankind. Five fingers, five toes, five tactile senses. These \nassociations give number Five a *link to the physical*, and a grounded \nvibration that is similar to Four, but on a much more intricate scale.\n\nBut this grounding physicality must play a co-starring role in the \nessence of Five when we consider the Greek concept of the */fifth \nelement./* The Greeks marveled over the philosophy of Five, and \nrecognized the pentagram as a perfect symbol to represent the four \nelements (water, air, earth, and fire) PLUS the fifth element as a \n*unifying factor.* This fifth element, as Plutarch observed, is the \nether or quintessence that instills harmony and unity to all elements.\n\nIndeed, the Greeks held the number Five as a representation of \n*dispensing spiritual knowledge* (Sound familiar? Hierophant resonates \nwith number Five) and considered it a vehicle for gaining proper \nspiritual understanding.\n\n\nAlso considered, as I said before, to symbolize grace---much like the \nconcept of balance above." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/11/2010 8:56 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff- My 2 cents ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks for the interest in my theory and the responses to it. They are appreciated and\nhelpful. I'm sure the admonitions are meant as a reminder to me and other readers\nhere to not get too lost in one's over-thought personal vision.\n\nAs I've tried to express previously, this is not a concern for me. I spent 20\nyears reading BotNS on the surface level and I haven't lost that perspective.\nA 5 pronged candlestick can be just a light source. Ultan can be seen as a venerated\nservant of the Autarch. Severian could really be a 20 year old virgin.\n\nI always knew BotNS had a Secret House built within it, like the House Absolute. I just\ncouldn't see it very clearly. It was the participants on this Board and their contributions\nwhich allowed me to see the Old Crone with high definition and detail, within the picture of\nthe Young Lady, and I'll be eternally grateful for that. I wouldn't expect my view of the Old\nCrone to be exactly like anyone else's. But if my description of her can help anyone else, as I\nhave been helped, then it has all been worth it. \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-11T19:14:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D03AF9B.4000106@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm hoping I can be indulged in one last coda. In the discussion of sexual weirdnesses\nI had forgotten an anecdote from Roy C. Lackey that made me laugh. In analyzing the interlude\nbetween Severian and Apheta, Roy observes her \"larval\" status, her glowworm belly and the butterfly\nwings of her adult form and notes, \"he is screwing an insect\". Hah. Pretty funny. But I think the\nweirdness of his attraction to her might be less if we accept the analogy of Greek Hero- that in \ngenealogy he is partly god/fallen angel. That and the incest curse would explain his mutual attraction\nwith Jurturna also\n \nA good segue into the real purpose Wolfe had in writing BotNS and other books the way he did, which is\ncrystal clear to me.\n \nRoy's interpretation of Apheta is humorous and a good one. Even Gene Wolfe would laugh. But is it complete?\nSeverian views the same experience as a cosmic wonder with metaphors of spurting stars and black hole\nvaginas being filled with white fountain penises all around.\n \nOn the other hand, Apheta views the episode as entirely repulsive. She later admits she despised being\nassigned to mate with an ancient (primate?) \"monster\" from another universe. So which is the right\ninterpretation, Roy's, Severian's or Apheta's? Surely the answer is ALL of them together. If any were\nmissing we'd have a less rich understanding of the event.\n \nIn the James Jordan interview which inspired my theory, Gene Wolfe describes himself in the same terms \nthat Rudesind does. As an advocate for the dead. He feels that ancient people are derided and disrespected\nfor their primitive views vis a vis our own advanced understanding. But they were just as intelligent as we \nare and they used the available tools to describe their world in the best way they could. We snicker at\ngods, monsters, angels and magic and pat ourselves on the back for our science and modern socio-politcal \nanalysis. But is our perspective, alone, really superior?\n \nMany criticisms of my theory have been along these lines. \"Why do we need shapeshifting if we can't see it?\"\nWhy do we need gods if we have aliens? \"Why do we need a devil if we have socio-literary metaphor?\" And my \nanswer has always been that we don't. We don't need the fantastic but by embracing it we enrich our \nunderstanding.\n \nExample from my Anthro education. I am aware of the chemically induced hallucinogenic effect of atropine\nfrom the nightshade family. But I am also aware that Medieval women who used broomsticks to apply \nbelladonna extract to their crotches experienced flight and erotic encounters with incubi and Great God Pan.\nIf I embraced only the science and dismissed the fantastic, how could I fully understand why these women\nrisked torture and execution to practice witchcraft and why certain men risked the same by wearing a goatskin\nheaddress and joining them. Gotta have both perspectives to more fully understand. (of course there are more..)\n \nGene wolfe urges us to treasure the classics and honor the ancient masters' perspective as equal to our own. \nTzadkiel is such an advanced being that we can barely comprehend him/her and how he/she sees the universe. \nYet, he/she reveres Severian. Can we do any less for our own ancient gods, heroes and legends? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-11T19:26:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3. Ultan says that on the Feast Day, their guild marches down \"Iubar Street\" conspicuously mentioning\nthe name twice. Iubar is a Latin word invoking radiant light, a splendid, glorious appearance,\nthe morning star, and the chemical phosphorus. All these are directly related to Lucifer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are also related to the sun. Iubar Street is mentioned again near\nthe end of _Urth_, when Eata says there was a party there to celebrate\nValeria's second marriage. I would take it that it is the main street\nof the city, and represents the people's devotion (nominally, at\nleast) to the New Sun. (Note also that the cathedral has candles\nrepresenting the Claw.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4. Ultan mentions books bound in the hides of echidnes and krakens. This could mean spiny anteater\nand giant squid skins. But any mention in this story of a giant sea monster and the Mother of All\nMonsters/wife of Typhon raises a red flag for me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "6. Ultan is especially familiar with the book Lives of the Seventeen Megatherians as well as Wonders Of\nUrth and Sky. Both books seem to deal with the monsters in the sea and their origins." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would say that both _Wonders of Urth and Sky_ and the library as a\nwhole contain monsters because they contain _everything_." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D03D218.6050003@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-11T19:33:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think your point truncated below is probably the single most important \nkey to understanding Wolfe in epic mode.\n\nYes, Wolfe sympathizes very much with Ultan." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/11/2010 2:14 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nIn the James Jordan interview which inspired my theory, Gene Wolfe describes himself in the same terms\nthat Rudesind does. As an advocate for the dead. He feels that ancient people are derided and disrespected\nfor their primitive views vis a vis our own advanced understanding. But they were just as intelligent as we\nare and they used the available tools to describe their world in the best way they could. We snicker at\ngods, monsters, angels and magic and pat ourselves on the back for our science and modern socio-politcal\nanalysis. But is our perspective, alone, really superior?\n\n...\nGene wolfe urges us to treasure the classics and honor the ancient masters' perspective as equal to our own.\nTzadkiel is such an advanced being that we can barely comprehend him/her and how he/she sees the universe.\nYet, he/she reveres Severian. Can we do any less for our own ancient gods, heroes and legends?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-11T19:57:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D03D218.6050003@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n\nAs I've tried to express previously, this is not a concern for me. I spent 20\nyears reading BotNS on the surface level and I haven't lost that perspective.\nA 5 pronged candlestick can be just a light source. Ultan can be seen as a venerated\nservant of the Autarch. Severian could really be a 20 year old virgin." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems to me, though, that this runs together two different things.\nThere is the literal/symbolic distinction; these can exist together; a\ncandle can both be just a light source (literally) and have some\nSatanic significance (symbolically). And there is the distinction\nbetween two literal meanings, surface and hidden; and these, I feel,\nare not compatible; Severian cannot both be a virgin and have\nhomoerotic experience. (I'm not especially worried about that one; but\nsome of the contrasts are more disturbing.) One you see the hidden\nmeaning, the surface meaning - in cases like this, where they actually\ncontradict each other - ceases to make sense. If the hidden house is\nthe kind you have found, then the visible house is an illusion. Well,\nperhaps it is. But still it is hard to swallow.\n\nAnd on a complete tangent: I don't think Ultan is a servant of the\nAutarch. In his note at the end of COTC, GW says that all the\nresidents of the Citadel except Ultan are servants of the throne. I\noriginally took this just to mean that he was an exultant. But that's\nweird; Pelerines can be both exultant by birth and religious by\nvocation; why can't Ultan be both exultant by birth and servant of the\nthrone by vocation? Cyriaca (as so often) provides the clue. the first\nkeeper of the archives was appointed by Tyupon, and he appointed his\nsuccessor, and the succession continues to this day, faithful to the\ncharge given them by Typhon. It is a trust that existed before the\nautarchy and is not bound by it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D03DDEF.4040903@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-11T20:24:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Excellent observations.\n\nI'd add that myths contain everything too, in a sense (part of the \nlesson of the Brown Book, as you say), and so it seems that the library \nis full of mythical monsters. After all, they are the coolest part of \nmyths, as everyone (or every boy) knows. ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/11/2010 2:26 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nLee Berman wrote:\n3. Ultan says that on the Feast Day, their guild marches down \"Iubar \nStreet\" conspicuously mentioning\nthe name twice. Iubar is a Latin word invoking radiant light, a splendid, glorious appearance,\nthe morning star, and the chemical phosphorus. All these are directly related to Lucifer.\nThey are also related to the sun. Iubar Street is mentioned again near\nthe end of _Urth_, when Eata says there was a party there to celebrate\nValeria's second marriage. I would take it that it is the main street\nof the city, and represents the people's devotion (nominally, at\nleast) to the New Sun. (Note also that the cathedral has candles\nrepresenting the Claw.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "4. Ultan mentions books bound in the hides of echidnes and krakens. This could mean spiny anteater\nand giant squid skins. But any mention in this story of a giant sea monster and the Mother of All\nMonsters/wife of Typhon raises a red flag for me.\n6. Ultan is especially familiar with the book Lives of the Seventeen Megatherians as well as Wonders Of\nUrth and Sky. Both books seem to deal with the monsters in the sea and their origins." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would say that both _Wonders of Urth and Sky_ and the library as a\nwhole contain monsters because they contain _everything_." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D03E991.7060801@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-11T21:13:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Awesome. You're right of course.\n\nBTW, placing Iubar Street, with its Bringer of the Sun symbolism, so \nclose to a blind man who is associated with the almost sacred theme of \nbooks ... almost suggests an illumination or revealing of all knowledge, \ngathered and hidden." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/11/2010 2:57 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nAnd on a complete tangent: I don't think Ultan is a servant of the\nAutarch. In his note at the end of COTC, GW says that all the\nresidents of the Citadel except Ultan are servants of the throne. I\noriginally took this just to mean that he was an exultant. But that's\nweird; Pelerines can be both exultant by birth and religious by\nvocation; why can't Ultan be both exultant by birth and servant of the\nthrone by vocation? Cyriaca (as so often) provides the clue. the first\nkeeper of the archives was appointed by Tyupon, and he appointed his\nsuccessor, and the succession continues to this day, faithful to the\ncharge given them by Typhon. It is a trust that existed before the\nautarchy and is not bound by it." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-11T21:41:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D03E991.7060801@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote: ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interesting theory. It seems to me the consensus has been that Jonas\ncame from the Tzadkiel ship. If that's true and Jonas recognizes the\nship, wouldn't it suggest that House Absolute is founded on the wreckage\nof Tzadkiel?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jonas certainly says that his ship crashed. because it could not find\na port, so it can't have been Tzadkiel's ship. (Nor can it have been a\ntender from Tzadkiel's ship such as Severian and Burgundofara landed\nin, as they don't need a port.)\n\nThis, of course, is not to say that he was never on Tzadkiel's ship.\nBeings like him certainly were." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-11T21:53:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason: Iubar Street is mentioned again near the end of _Urth_, when Eata says there \nwas a party there to celebrate Valeria's second marriage. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nGood catch!\nMy first thought is, \"what does that say about Dux Caesidius?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would take it that it is the main street of the city, and represents the people's devotion \n(nominally, at least) to the New Sun. (Note also that the cathedral has candles\nrepresenting the Claw.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I remain eternally skeptical of every established thing in the Commonwealth. If the Pelerines\ntruly seek the New Sun, why is their color red, instead of white or gold? Why have they \nencased the Claw in corundum and kept it hidden away?\n \nWhen Valeria (whom I think is not a part of the Commonwealth, at least in Severian's time) wishes\nto speak of the New Sun she does not use a term associated with Lucifer. she says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Lux dei vitae viam monstrat\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would say that both _Wonders of Urth and Sky_ and the library as a whole contain monsters because \nthey contain _everything_." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nOf course. But Severian could encounter references to evil sea gods anywhere. I'm just add to the list \nof evidence that Ultan serves as one vector." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff- Yes, Wolfe sympathizes very much with Ultan." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Absolutely agreed! Perhaps on a level not fully recognized. During a convesation with someone last year\nI observed that Ultan tells Severian about reading on the 49th Floor, overlooking a square for drying \nrosemary. Gene Wolfe was 49 when SotT was published and his wife, of course, is Rosemary. As a reader \nyou could dismiss that as accidental. But if you were a careful author like Gene wolfe with not a word \nwasted, could YOU manage to put your age and your wife's name in a paragraph by accident? I don't think \nGene wolfe could.\n \nLet's go back to the principle of \"book as universe- author as demiurge\". Also to the principle that the\nruler will take on many roles in his own kingdom. Let's not be simplistic! Gene Wolfe may put multiple\nversions of himself in BotNS but they aren't all going to be purely \"good\". As demiurge, Gene Wolfe would\nWANT to make many, if not all, his avatars be flawed and display \"evil\". How boring and dishonest to cast\none's self only as the pure-hearted hero." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason- And on a complete tangent: I don't think Ultan is a servant of the\nAutarch. In his note at the end of COTC, GW says that all the residents of the Citadel \nexcept Ultan are servants of the throne. I originally took this just to mean that he was \nan exultant. But that's weird; Pelerines can be both exultant by birth and religious by\nvocation; why can't Ultan be both exultant by birth and servant of the throne by vocation? \nCyriaca (as so often) provides the clue. the first keeper of the archives was appointed by T\nyupon, and he appointed hissuccessor, and the succession continues to this day, faithful to the\ncharge given them by Typhon. It is a trust that existed before the autarchy and is not bound by it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think this is an EXCELLENT analysis. I might even take it as a metaphor that Wolfe recognizes as \nJose Luis Borges as mentor/predecessor with deeper roots than Wolfe has yet developed.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<69A15821D642434F8E6AEA0AB29EE4AB@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-11T21:54:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Andrew Mason\" \nJames Wynn wrote: ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Interesting theory. It seems to me the consensus has been that Jonas\ncame from the Tzadkiel ship. If that's true and Jonas recognizes the\nship, wouldn't it suggest that House Absolute is founded on the wreckage\nof Tzadkiel?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jonas certainly says that his ship crashed. because it could not find\na port, so it can't have been Tzadkiel's ship. (Nor can it have been a\ntender from Tzadkiel's ship such as Severian and Burgundofara landed\nin, as they don't need a port.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The bare fact of the crash doesn't actually eliminate Tzadkiel's ship, since \nit travels in time - the crash could be in the future of Severian's sojourn \non it but still in the past of Urth.\n\nAs I said, though, there are many other reasons to rule it out anyway.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-11T22:27:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<69A15821D642434F8E6AEA0AB29EE4AB@jill>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason: It seems to me, though, that this runs together two different things.\nThere is the literal/symbolic distinction; these can exist together; a\ncandle can both be just a light source (literally) and have some Satanic significance \n(symbolically). And there is the distinction between two literal meanings, surface and \nhidden; and these, I feel, are not compatible; Severian cannot both be a virgin and have\nhomoerotic experience." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThis was an important enough response that I thought it needed its own entry. I will respond\nby saying you are wrong. Severian CAN be both a virgin and non-virgin. The reason is because\nhe is not a material being. His substance is a product of text and mental images. Since the\nmain text suggests he is a virgin and the sub-text suggests he is not, we can have two \ncontradictory mental images formed. Which is right? That's the point. Neither or both!\n \nI am not engaging in silly sophistry. I believe Wolfe writes with the exact principles I just\noutlined in mind. There is a need for the ability to maintain simultaneous, contradictory \nvisions to understand Gene Wolfe's work. (especially when it comes to Yesod ;- ))\n \nWhy? Because that is the only way you can understand God. God who is of the Spirit and the opposite\nof material things yet who created all that we see. How else can you understand an entity who is \nsimultaneously the source of all good and all evil. The one who created Heaven and allowed\nHell to be created. Who gave strict orders to Adam and Eve then provided irresistable temptation.\n \nI hope this makes sense. I asked Gerry Quinn if he believed in God for this reason. If he does\nthere may be a chance he can understand this. If he is an unredeemable materialist I must imagine\nhim saying, \"no, God can't be 100% good and 100% evil; that is impossible; is he is then he can't exist\".\n \n*****\n \nOn a slightly less serious note, I've known girls who are both virgins and non-virgins, using the\n1 year abstinence rule to regain virgin status. One actually can find validity in this if we accept\nthat in creating our own self image we operate as a Creator and simulataneous contradictory truths\nare possible. In fact I will go out on a limb and suggest that if you are unable to grasp contradictory \ntruths, you are incapable of understanding God, Gene Wolfe and women ;- ). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D040FEF.9050001@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-11T23:57:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that's an interesting approach. Yes, there can be contradictions \nin literature, just as there are contradictions in gods.\n\nBut why can't Severian simply be a schoolboy who has never met a girl? \nOr who has even had sex as part of \"games\" with the witch girls but \nnever in an adult context, as a man with a woman?\n\nThese are telling distinctions on their own." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/11/2010 5:27 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Andrew Mason: It seems to me, though, that this runs together two different things.\nThere is the literal/symbolic distinction; these can exist together; a\ncandle can both be just a light source (literally) and have some Satanic significance\n(symbolically). And there is the distinction between two literal meanings, surface and\nhidden; and these, I feel, are not compatible; Severian cannot both be a virgin and have\nhomoerotic experience." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This was an important enough response that I thought it needed its own entry. I will respond\nby saying you are wrong. Severian CAN be both a virgin and non-virgin. The reason is because\nhe is not a material being. His substance is a product of text and mental images. Since the\nmain text suggests he is a virgin and the sub-text suggests he is not, we can have two\ncontradictory mental images formed. Which is right? That's the point. Neither or both!\n\nI am not engaging in silly sophistry. I believe Wolfe writes with the exact principles I just\noutlined in mind. There is a need for the ability to maintain simultaneous, contradictory\nvisions to understand Gene Wolfe's work. (especially when it comes to Yesod ;- ))\n\nWhy? Because that is the only way you can understand God. God who is of the Spirit and the opposite\nof material things yet who created all that we see. How else can you understand an entity who is\nsimultaneously the source of all good and all evil. The one who created Heaven and allowed\nHell to be created. Who gave strict orders to Adam and Eve then provided irresistable temptation.\n\nI hope this makes sense. I asked Gerry Quinn if he believed in God for this reason. If he does\nthere may be a chance he can understand this. If he is an unredeemable materialist I must imagine\nhim saying, \"no, God can't be 100% good and 100% evil; that is impossible; is he is then he can't exist\".\n\n*****\n\nOn a slightly less serious note, I've known girls who are both virgins and non-virgins, using the\n1 year abstinence rule to regain virgin status. One actually can find validity in this if we accept\nthat in creating our own self image we operate as a Creator and simulataneous contradictory truths\nare possible. In fact I will go out on a limb and suggest that if you are unable to grasp contradictory\ntruths, you are incapable of understanding God, Gene Wolfe and women ;- ). \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<08191585-F321-4AF3-A18C-6C65681DEFAE@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-12T17:58:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 11, 2010, at 5:19 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nOne thing that always used to befuddle me was why WOlfe has Typhon \"nursing an erection\" during his encounter\nwith Severian (the scene is emphasized in Long Sun where a painting of Pas has him nursing two erections; two \nheads? heh). If we see Typhon as modeled after bisexual Alexander (and/or the bisexual Greek gods) it starts to\nmake sense. We today sometimes think of homosexuality as an effeminate expression. But in ancient days there was\nan open Apollonian expression of it which was pure alpha male dominating a submissive partner. Typhon has his\nerection as he is about to pummel Severian into submission as his \"Second\", just as Severian did to Eata\npreviously." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee,\nIt seems pretty clear that Typhon intends to make Severian suck his cock when he kneels before him. He wants to debase and dominate the Conciliator.\n~Witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-13T03:40:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<08191585-F321-4AF3-A18C-6C65681DEFAE@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason: While if a work has another literal meaning, distinct from the surface one, \nthis will _normally_ subvert the surface meaning. In discovering what really happens, we \ndiscover that we were wrong about what seemed to happen. I now know (because you have explained) \nthat this is not what you were claiming about Wolfe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nCorrect. This should have been clear from the portion of the discussion where I posited that Wolfe\nhimself suggests there are seven levels of interpretation to his work. Perhaps we can agree that any\nauthor who bothered to undercut and subvert his own message seven times over is just being a pain in\nthe ass.\n \nThe multiple layers support each other they don't undercut. Thus if the superficial text is unclear \nabout the origins, motivations or eventual history of a character like Severian or Typhon or Father \nInire, we can deduce them by studying their legendary model or conflated models, whom I propose are \nHercules/Jesus, Alexander/Typhon and Dionysus/Great God Pan. BTW, I think this principle can be used to \nanswer the question about Maytera/General Mint as I will post soon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For instance, when asked who Blood's father was he [Wolfe] said, quite straighforwardly, 'Patera Pike'" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThese occasions are nice, perhaps. But so extremely rare that they can't be of much use in your quest to \ndetermine which Wolfean answer are \"right\". Moreover the unhappy truth is that Gene Wolfe will be dead \nsoon and, as I've heard he kept no notes, that source of determining \"rightness\" will be forever lost \nto us. I hope you will not fall into the thinking errors of Gerry Quinn who seems to have decided that\nhis calculations of \"probabiity\" and \"likelihood\" of rightness are general truths and not based on \npersonal feelings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "even if I accept that a work has more than one reading, incompatible but equally real, this does not \nmean that I will accept every reading of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNor has anyone suggested you should. We help each other here. Share ideas. But ultimately, despite Gerry's \nscreams of denial, our interpretations of Gene Wolfe's work can never be more than our \"own personal mythology\" \nthat each of us have built for ourselves. You can borrow what you like and build what works for you. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<2477B621C8DC4CBCA2F6049D1F75A399@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-13T16:04:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nAndrew Mason: While if a work has another literal meaning, distinct from \nthe surface one,\nthis will _normally_ subvert the surface meaning. In discovering what \nreally happens, we\ndiscover that we were wrong about what seemed to happen. I now know \n(because you have explained)\nthat this is not what you were claiming about Wolfe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Correct. This should have been clear from the portion of the discussion \nwhere I posited that Wolfe\nhimself suggests there are seven levels of interpretation to his work. \nPerhaps we can agree that any\nauthor who bothered to undercut and subvert his own message seven times \nover is just being a pain in\nthe ass.\n\nThe multiple layers support each other they don't undercut. Thus if the \nsuperficial text is unclear\nabout the origins, motivations or eventual history of a character like \nSeverian or Typhon or Father\nInire, we can deduce them by studying their legendary model or conflated \nmodels," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes - the multiple layers should support each other! When they conflict, it \nlikely means that something is wrong with our ideas about one or more of \nthem." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For instance, when asked who Blood's father was he [Wolfe] said, quite \nstraighforwardly, 'Patera Pike'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "These occasions are nice, perhaps. But so extremely rare that they can't \nbe of much use in your quest to\ndetermine which Wolfean answer are \"right\". Moreover the unhappy truth is \nthat Gene Wolfe will be dead\nsoon and, as I've heard he kept no notes, that source of determining \n\"rightness\" will be forever lost\nto us. I hope you will not fall into the thinking errors of Gerry Quinn \nwho seems to have decided that\nhis calculations of \"probabiity\" and \"likelihood\" of rightness are general \ntruths and not based on\npersonal feelings." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't say anything of the sort, as you well know. I do say that there \n*are* criteria that can be used to gauge the likelihood of rightness of \ndifferent interpretations. The extent to which different interpretations - \nderived from different levels or the same ones - support or contradict each \nother is a powerful clue in this regard." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "even if I accept that a work has more than one reading, incompatible but \nequally real, this does not\nmean that I will accept every reading of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nor has anyone suggested you should. We help each other here. Share ideas. \nBut ultimately, despite Gerry's\nscreams of denial, our interpretations of Gene Wolfe's work can never be \nmore than our \"own personal mythology\"\nthat each of us have built for ourselves. You can borrow what you like and \nbuild what works for you." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are claiming in essence that all readings are equally valid. I doubt I \nam the only one to disagree.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-13T17:21:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<2477B621C8DC4CBCA2F6049D1F75A399@jill>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn who seems to have decided that his calculations of \"probabiity\" and \"likelihood\" of rightness \nare general truths and not based on personal feelings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn- I don't say anything of the sort, as you well know. I do say that there *are* criteria that \ncan be used to gauge the likelihood of rightness of different interpretations." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nCareful in your assessment of what I do and do not know. Your co-workers know what the back of your head looks \nlike better than you do ;- ). Mirrors can take various forms.\n \nGerry, your statement above denies then immediately affirms my words. If there are are \"criteria that..\ngauge the likelihood of rightness..\" which transcend your own opinions then you are arguing that there\nare lupine universal truths.\n \nIf you do not believe in universal lupine truths I will recommend a change in wording of your statement to:\n \n\"There are criteria that I use to gauge what feels like the likelihood of rightness to me\".\n \nPhrased that way, I have no problem at all. I think recognizing one's own limitations is admirable and elevating\none's own opinions to the status of generally acknowledged truth is annoying. That's all I mean to say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You are claiming in essence that all readings are equally valid. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNo, I am pointing out that not all readings are equally valid to YOU. And I am suggesting there are no ways\nof evaluating ideas that are universally valid. What seems like a good theory to you will seem bad to others\nand what seems bad to you will seem good to others. I have not seen the slightest evidence of any two contributors\nhere who evaluate interpretions in lockstep with each other. Have you? Thus, what we have is what you recoil in\nhorror from: collection of private mythologies. Why deny it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I doubt I am the only one to disagree." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAre you suggesting a vote in which certain criteria will be chosen as THE definitive and exclusive ways of knowing \nwhether a Wolfe theory is valid or \"likely\" or \"probable\" or not?\n \nI'd be interested in watching the nomination process.\n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-13T18:57:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nGerry Quinn who seems to have decided that his calculations of \n\"probabiity\" and \"likelihood\" of rightness\nare general truths and not based on personal feelings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn- I don't say anything of the sort, as you well know. I do say \nthat there *are* criteria that\ncan be used to gauge the likelihood of rightness of different \ninterpretations." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry, your statement above denies then immediately affirms my words. If \nthere are are \"criteria that..\ngauge the likelihood of rightness..\" which transcend your own opinions \nthen you are arguing that there\nare lupine universal truths." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which there are. Some things in Wolfe's stories are ambiguous, others are \nrather certain. Triskele is a dog, or a dog-shaped aquastor. It is very \nunlikely that he is a cat. It is even more certain that he is not an \nelephant. An interpretation that requires Triskele to be an elephant has a \nhigh likelihood of being wrong.\n\nOf course I could be wrong in thinking this is so certain that it can be \ndescribed as a Lupine universal truth. Even universal truths can be \naccessed only through human understanding. But the concept is hardly \nincredible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you do not believe in universal lupine truths I will recommend a change \nin wording of your statement to:\n\n\"There are criteria that I use to gauge what feels like the likelihood of \nrightness to me\".\n\nPhrased that way, I have no problem at all. I think recognizing one's own \nlimitations is admirable and elevating\none's own opinions to the status of generally acknowledged truth is \nannoying. That's all I mean to say." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As you can see, I have no need for the words you so thoughtfully offer to \nplace in my mouth. There are demonstrably generally acknowledged truths, \nand I believe there are generally acknowledged means of judging the \nlikelihood of purported truths. There is no need for me to assert that my \nopinions are in line with such truths - I can simply state my opinions and \nthe reasoning behind them, and see whether others agree or disagree. If \nthey disagree, I can consider why, and change my opinion if I find the \nreasons convincing. Othes can do the same. I make no claims of special \ninsight. My opinions should be judged on their own merit or otherwise. The \nsame goes for yours." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You are claiming in essence that all readings are equally valid." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, I am pointing out that not all readings are equally valid to YOU. And \nI am suggesting there are no ways\nof evaluating ideas that are universally valid. What seems like a good \ntheory to you will seem bad to others\nand what seems bad to you will seem good to others. I have not seen the \nslightest evidence of any two contributors\nhere who evaluate interpretions in lockstep with each other. Have you? \nThus, what we have is what you recoil in\nhorror from: collection of private mythologies. Why deny it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You say: \"What seems like a good theory to you will seem bad to others and \nwhat seems bad to you will seem good to others.\"\n\nThis *is* either the claim that all readings are equally valid, or the \nnear-equivalent claim that the notion of validity is either meaningless or \ninaccessible to us.\n\nI reject this claim, in either form. There are better interpretations and \nworse interpretations, and there are ways of telling the difference.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D067070.7010508@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-13T19:13:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn-\nWhich there are. Some things in Wolfe's stories are ambiguous, others \nare rather certain. Triskele is a dog, or a dog-shaped aquastor. It \nis very unlikely that he is a cat. It is even more certain that he is \nnot an elephant. An interpretation that requires Triskele to be an \nelephant has a high likelihood of being wrong. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Your central point is taken that there are known knowns. But, \ntechnically Triskele might be /merely/ an alien creature that is \nanalogous to dogs. If you saw it, you might prefer the term \"bear\" ( \nsuspect you would). I know it probably makes no difference narratively \nand little allusively, but it does exemplify Wolfe's forest of mirrors.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<53653.93210.qm@web37601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-13T19:43:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is this becoming the same conversation I always have with freshmen in my \nliterature classes? I invariably get some form of the complaint: \"But it's art! \nYou can't tell me that my interpretation is wrong!\"\n\nAnd I invariably respond with some form of: \"I can't tell you that you're wrong, \nbut I can tell you that you're unconvincing.\"\n\nMy general point is that everyone is, of course, free to respond personally to \nliterature however they want to. But once they get to the point of sharing their \nopinions, their personal reactions are only interesting in so far as they can 1) \ncommunicate them clearly and 2) offer a rationale for those reactions that can \nsustain criticism from someone who disagrees. I don't think you have to go so \nfar as assuming the existence of \"universal truths\" in order to think that #2 \nshould be a goal when talking to others about lit.\n\nYou will also encounter disagreement about what counts as \"convincing.\" But I've \nalways found it most useful to think about why my own ideas sound unconvincing \nto others, not because I assume I'm wrong, but because it's made me better at \nconvincing them later. (And that's also why I almost always disagree with my \nfreshmen...not because they're wrong, but because I want them to get better at \ndefending whatever they think about what they read.)\n\nWolfe, of course, puts this in especially slippery territory. I think I \nmentioned the other week about how difficult it can be to differentiate the \nPUZZLES from INTERPRETATIONS in Wolfe. And one of the (probably inevitable) \nfrustrations with talking about him is when others see the solution of a puzzle \nwhere you see an interpretation. (I have to admit that I feel this almost every \ntime someone identifies a religious or mythological allusion/similarity in Wolfe \nwhich is then used to \"unlock\" some tentatively related plot point.)\n\nWho was it that mentioned before that we should avoid confusing \"is\" with \n\"resembles\"? It seems like that's a constant stumbling block when talking about \nWolfe's work...but it's also hard to tell when that mistake is actually being \nmade.\n\nSorry to ramble, but I'm seriously trying to avoid grading right now.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Mon, December 13, 2010 12:57:04 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Father Inire Theory cont.\nFrom: \"Lee Berman\" \nGerry Quinn who seems to have decided that his calculations of \"probabiity\" and \n\"likelihood\" of rightness\nare general truths and not based on personal feelings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn- I don't say anything of the sort, as you well know. I do say that \nthere *are* criteria that\ncan be used to gauge the likelihood of rightness of different \ninterpretations." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry, your statement above denies then immediately affirms my words. If there \nare are \"criteria that..\ngauge the likelihood of rightness..\" which transcend your own opinions then you \nare arguing that there\nare lupine universal truths." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which there are. Some things in Wolfe's stories are ambiguous, others are \nrather certain. Triskele is a dog, or a dog-shaped aquastor. It is very \nunlikely that he is a cat. It is even more certain that he is not an elephant. \nAn interpretation that requires Triskele to be an elephant has a high likelihood \nof being wrong.\n\nOf course I could be wrong in thinking this is so certain that it can be \ndescribed as a Lupine universal truth. Even universal truths can be accessed \nonly through human understanding. But the concept is hardly incredible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you do not believe in universal lupine truths I will recommend a change in \nwording of your statement to:\n\n\"There are criteria that I use to gauge what feels like the likelihood of \nrightness to me\".\n\nPhrased that way, I have no problem at all. I think recognizing one's own \nlimitations is admirable and elevating\none's own opinions to the status of generally acknowledged truth is annoying. \nThat's all I mean to say." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As you can see, I have no need for the words you so thoughtfully offer to place \nin my mouth. There are demonstrably generally acknowledged truths, and I \nbelieve there are generally acknowledged means of judging the likelihood of \npurported truths. There is no need for me to assert that my opinions are in \nline with such truths - I can simply state my opinions and the reasoning behind \nthem, and see whether others agree or disagree. If they disagree, I can \nconsider why, and change my opinion if I find the reasons convincing. Othes can \ndo the same. I make no claims of special insight. My opinions should be judged \non their own merit or otherwise. The same goes for yours." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You are claiming in essence that all readings are equally valid." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, I am pointing out that not all readings are equally valid to YOU. And I am \nsuggesting there are no ways\nof evaluating ideas that are universally valid. What seems like a good theory \nto you will seem bad to others\nand what seems bad to you will seem good to others. I have not seen the \nslightest evidence of any two contributors\nhere who evaluate interpretions in lockstep with each other. Have you? Thus, \nwhat we have is what you recoil in\nhorror from: collection of private mythologies. Why deny it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You say: \"What seems like a good theory to you will seem bad to others and what \nseems bad to you will seem good to others.\"\n\nThis *is* either the claim that all readings are equally valid, or the \nnear-equivalent claim that the notion of validity is either meaningless or \ninaccessible to us.\n\nI reject this claim, in either form. There are better interpretations and worse \ninterpretations, and there are ways of telling the difference.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-13T19:58:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<53653.93210.qm@web37601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman- After Severian gets on the ship, why has Father Inire not been helping Valeria \nas Autarch after 1000 years of doing just that? [[out when Severian got on The Ship?]] " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSorry, bollixed the key question in my last post with an uncorrected typo. Please delete\nthe bracketed above.\n \nI consider this an essential question that demands an answer. If Father Inire is not on \nUrth, there is only one place in the Labyrinth he could \"logically\" be. The Ship. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-13T20:02:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 11:58 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI consider this an essential question that demands an answer. If Father Inire is not on\nUrth, there is only one place in the Labyrinth he could \"logically\" be. The Ship." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Um. That he isn't helping Valeria doesn't necessarily mean that he's\nnot on Urth." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<842426.55826.qm@web114712.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-13T20:16:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<53653.93210.qm@web37601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Craig Brewer cnbrewer at yahoo.com\n\n[snip things that I find convincing]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who was it that mentioned before that we should avoid confusing \"is\" with \n\"resembles\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for noticing!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seems like that's a constant stumbling block when talking about \nWolfe's work...but it's also hard to tell when that mistake is actually being \nmade." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sometimes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sorry to ramble, but I'm seriously trying to avoid grading right now." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You and me both.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-13T20:45:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 11:58 AM, Lee Berman \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I consider this an essential question that demands an answer. If Father\nInire is not on\nUrth, there is only one place in the Labyrinth he could \"logically\" be.\nThe Ship." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Um. That he isn't helping Valeria doesn't necessarily mean that he's\nnot on Urth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At the end of Citadel, when Sev signs off to board The Ship, he speculates\nthat Inire will not long survive the coming of the New\nSun due to his extreme old age. Since Severian is expecting the New Sun to\ncome as shortly as a few years, the fifty year interval that ends in the\nthrown room with all the other parties assembled suggests that Inire's\njust plain dead." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-13T20:52:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Craig Brewer- Is this becoming the same conversation I always have with freshmen in my literature \nclasses? I invariably get some form of the complaint: \"But it's art! You can't tell me that my \ninterpretation is wrong!\"\n....that's also why I almost always disagree with my freshmen...not because they're wrong, but because \nI want them to get better at defending whatever they think about what they read.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThank you Craig. I think that was a very illustrative post. The reason you see a similarity\nin tone to the conversations on this Board to your lessons to your freshmen is that some here do feel \ntheir role here is to serve as a professor and instructor to others who are not quite as experienced in \nlife or in the subject matter at hand. \n\nCraig I am going to guess that if you were asked to review a work of your peer/colleague you would not\ntake the same tone that you do with your freshmen, no matter what your opinion of their work. would they \nreally value being talked down to and told their conclusions are substandard. Would your peers appreciate \nyour criticism because you, \"just want them to get better\". Do you \"almost always disagree\" with your peers\nas you do with your freshmen?\n \nLikewise I would expect you to feel offended and defensive as your freshmen if one of your peers reviewed your\nwork with the same tone that they take with their freshmen. Do you get along with peers who \"almost always\ndisagreee\" with your conclusions? If you debate what I'm saying and assert that you and everyone you know \nappreciates all criticism no matter how condescending, you are not being honest.\n \nContrast those situations with an invitation for friends to come over and see the fruits of your labors \nafter spending a few months remodelling your home. I would hope your friends would be even more careful\nof your feelings and circumspect with their tone and word choice than your peer would reviewing your\nprofessional work. Let's hope none of your friends would discuss your remodelling efforts in the way you\nspeak to your freshmen.\n \nI consider my participation on this board as somewhere between the situations of peers reviewing each\nother and the inviting of friends over. I understand that others consider me a freshman and speak accordingly and\nI really don't mind that much. They can't help having poor manners with their obdurate students such as myself\nwho do not know their place. I have gained a LOT of useful help from other people on this board. But that help\nrarely comes from those whose criticism are in part motivated by testosterone and the desire to play alpha dog \nprofessor.\n \nCan I be blamed for engaging in a little nose-tweaking and provoking some furious tail-chasing before I wander off to conversations with those who consider themselves my peers and friends rather than my professor or rival. \nSurely we all get what we deserve, including me.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-13T21:22:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l D. Oakes- Um. That he isn't helping Valeria doesn't necessarily mean that he's\nnot on Urth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIt does to me. You could guess that he is up in Ascia or something. But Ascia is not shown to us,\nthus it exists outside the Labyrinth. Not an option. In my view Father Inire can be in three\npossible places, the places we are shown: The Commonwealth, The Ship or Yesod. If he ain't in the Commonwealth...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- when Sev signs off to board The Ship, he speculates that Inire will not long survive the \ncoming of the New Sun due to his extreme old age. Since Severian is expecting the New Sun to come as \nshortly as a few years, the fifty year interval that ends in the thrown room with all the other parties \nassembled suggests that Inire's just plain dead." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIf you trust that Severian understands Father Inire. Which I don't (or perhaps I don't trust that Severian\nis telling us all he knows of him). Let's not forget Baldanders. He tells us that such angelic beings as \nhierodules die like dogs after a score of years or something like that. Not very respectful of angels. Perhaps \nto be expected from a guy who aspires to be a giant, seabound monstrosity/demon. But not fully to be believed,\nby me either.\n \nI find the mythological subtext regarding angels, fallen or not, to be far more interesting and inspirational than \nthe words of these unreliable guys regarding such important characters as Father Inire and B, F and O. \n \n\"Well, he got old and just died somewhere and we don't see it and nobody talks about it and Severian never finds \nthe grave, even though he finds his own\".\n \nJeff, if that works for you, cool. I'm absolutely not arguing it shouldn't. But for me it doesn't work. Not in this\ntightly constructed BotNS Labyrinth. Not for an important character. For me, we HAVE to see Father Inire again just \nas surely as Severian HAD to end up in the Matachin Tower again. We see the story infolds upon itself like that over \nand over. If we don't see Father Inire again I feel compelled to look for him. If there is such a giant loose end left \nhanging out of the maze I feel Gene Wolfe is inviting me to tie it up. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<5efe3c8add8af3ce338007bc9b75d8cc.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-13T23:21:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l D. Oakes- Um. That he isn't helping Valeria doesn't necessarily\nmean that he's\nnot on Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It does to me. You could guess that he is up in Ascia or something. But\nAscia is not shown to us,\nthus it exists outside the Labyrinth. Not an option. In my view Father\nInire can be in three\npossible places, the places we are shown: The Commonwealth, The Ship or\nYesod. If he ain't in the Commonwealth...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson- when Sev signs off to board The Ship, he speculates that\nInire will not long survive the\ncoming of the New Sun due to his extreme old age. Since Severian is\nexpecting the New Sun to come as\nshortly as a few years, the fifty year interval that ends in the thrown\nroom with all the other parties\nassembled suggests that Inire's just plain dead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you trust that Severian understands Father Inire. Which I don't (or\nperhaps I don't trust that Severian\nis telling us all he knows of him). Let's not forget Baldanders. He tells\nus that such angelic beings as\nhierodules die like dogs after a score of years or something like that.\nNot very respectful of angels. Perhaps\nto be expected from a guy who aspires to be a giant, seabound\nmonstrosity/demon. But not fully to be believed,\nby me either.\n\nI find the mythological subtext regarding angels, fallen or not, to be\nfar more interesting and inspirational than\nthe words of these unreliable guys regarding such important characters as\nFather Inire and B, F and O.\n\n\"Well, he got old and just died somewhere and we don't see it and nobody\ntalks about it and Severian never finds\nthe grave, even though he finds his own\".\n\nJeff, if that works for you, cool. I'm absolutely not arguing it\nshouldn't. But for me it doesn't work. Not in this\ntightly constructed BotNS Labyrinth. Not for an important character. For\nme, we HAVE to see Father Inire again just\nas surely as Severian HAD to end up in the Matachin Tower again. We see\nthe story infolds upon itself like that over\nand over. If we don't see Father Inire again I feel compelled to look for\nhim. If there is such a giant loose end left\nhanging out of the maze I feel Gene Wolfe is inviting me to tie it up." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think it's important to see \"again\" a character who never made an\novert appearance to begin with. There's no reason for Inire to be around\nafter his mission of helping bring the New Sun is compelted, in fact\nhaving him around afterward would itself be a loose end to deal with.\n\nAs for Severian finding his own grave, being a time traveler that is not a\nbig deal; in fact he finds it at least twice, maybe 3-4 times." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-14T00:29:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<5efe3c8add8af3ce338007bc9b75d8cc.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff- I agree that Inire does a strange disappearing act. But he might be on The Ship \nunbeknownst to Severian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, that is what I am suggesting (or that Severian is lying to us about not knowing)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and he might have simply hopped into a mirror. Who knows where he called home." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWell, I do. But that's not much help to others, I know. Not sure we want to go with the travelling\nthrough mirrors bit. That path seems mostly reserved for monsters. I think there is a reason Severian\ntook a ship to Yesod rather than that big mirror Book." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for there being only one Ship ... that's fine, except that Jonas's ship crashed. I would more readily \naccept a single Ship that can move between Briah and Yesod." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, that's what I am proposing. I haven't been following the discussion on the Antechamber=spaceship very\nclosely. Is there some reason the crashed ship HAS to be interstellar and not a local solar system tender?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- I don't think it's important to see \"again\" a character who never made an overt appearance to \nbegin with. There's no reason for Inire to be around after his mission of helping bring the New Sun is \ncompelted, in fact having him around afterward would itself be a loose end to deal with." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIt's all in what we each hope to get out of the story Jeff. To me, writing in an important, central character\nand then dropping him without any real explanation is sloppy writing. I don't think that is one of Gene WOlfe's\nfaults. If it doesn't bother you, that's cool. I think the story can be read in that way only. If I understand, \nin your view, the character of Father Inire signifies...well...nothing much I guess.\n \nIn my view, this is another universe. A spiritually inferior universe to our own. A Gnostic universe. In my view, \nFather Inire in all his myriad, diverse roles, represents the inferior Gnostic version of God, a Dionysian demiurge \nwho has created everything and can't help but constantly interfere with all that he has made, poking and prodding \nhis creations to their destinies, not allowing Free Will. In some manner, this god has fathered a son\nwho becomes an inferior, gnostic Christ-figure and is telling us his life story from his own point of view. This \nChrist-figure brings about an inferior Flood which creates a cleansed planet with 4 gnostically paired gods of dark, \nlight, male and female, leading eventually to the most potent gnostic, Dionysian holy figure of all, The Green Man. \n \n \nFor me, my view of Father Inire has a lot of meat on its bones and I prefer it to the \"nothing much\" model. I just mean \nit works better for me. Jeff you have said you don't like the that my Father Inire Theory is so \"global\". Perhaps \nyou now understand just how global it really is, so I must expect you have absolutely no use for it. Still....\n \nJeff, I'm going to guess that there is a very, very important \"person\" in your life, someone central to your creation \nand the core of your being who has never made an overt appearance. Am I right? I think this \"person\" is important to\nGene WOlfe also. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }