{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5811", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5811, "subject": "Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "messages": 99, "voices": 14, "first": "2010-12-10T21:17:21+00:00", "last": "2010-12-16T19:06:28+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-10T21:17:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nWe don't see Tzadkiel's ship until _UotNS_. ?In BotNS, however, we see lots\nof ships, and indeed spend much time in them.." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry, I totlally agree with your general point that Tzadkiel's ship\nisn't the only means of interstellar transport, but I'm worried about\nsome of the details." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "First there are the ships of the citatel, in one of which resides the Guild\nof Torturers. ?Conceivably these were only fit for transport within the\nSolar System, but there's no evidence either way." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They resemble the ships known as 'landers' in _Long Sun_ and _Short\nSun_, which suggests they are short-haul vessels. (Though perhaps they\nwere meant to link up with long-haul ones.)\n\n ?Typhon confirms that Urth" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "at one time possessed many interstellar ships, on which many of his\nsupporters fled." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But he may be lying - which is, in fact, Severian's first reaction to\nhim. . I'm always surprised by how ready people are to believe what he\nsays in that scene. If he had interstellar ships (which would have to\nbe faster-than-light, I think, to get between the stars in times that\nwould enable him actually to run an empire) it becomes puzzling what\nwas the significance of his launching the Whorl - which Wolfe has said\nwas intended to 'return humanity to the stars'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jonas served on an interstellar ship which crashed on Urth a little north of\nNessus. ?This ship became incorporated within the House Absolute; the\nAntechamber was part of it. ?It was equipped with a set of mirrors which\napparently had interstellar capability. ?(These may or may not be the same\nones used by Fr. Inire.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jonas was on an interstellar ship which crashed, certainly (which in\nitself supports your point). There also seems to have been a ship\nwhich crashed in the gorunds of the House Absolute, and whose\npassengers became residents of the antechamber. I don't see any\nevidence that it was the same ship - Jonas recognises the name 'Kim\nLee Soong' as one that would have been common in his youth, but\ndoesn't say 'Oh yes, he was an old mate of mine'. And I also don't see\nany evidence that the antechamber was _part_ of the ship - I took it\nthat the passengers were found trespassing in the grounds of the House\nAbsolute, and thrown into the antechamber, as such people are. (I also\ndon't remember anything about Jonas's ship having mirrors, but I may\njust be forgetting that.)\n\nOn the other hand: Vodalus talks about humans in the first empire\nleaping between the stars, and even the galaxies, in their own ships\n(not just as crew in ships commanded by Hierodules). Admittedly\nVodalus isn't the most reliable witness, but no one ever says he is\nwrong; the dispute is about how those days can be brought back, not\nabout whether they existed.\n\nSeverian in _Urth_ mentions the ships putting into Port of Lune - I\ndon't get the impression they are just going to Verthandi and Skuld;\nthe question is raised whether Tzadkiel's ship is the only\nlong-distance one, but I think in this context Sirius, say, would not\ncount as long-distance.\n\nNow there is a line where Sidero, quoting Tzadkiel, says 'There is\nonly one ship. All the ships we hail between the stars are this ship.'\nThis line is very mysterious, given how much else seems inconsistent\nwith it. (It might be the only such ship in Severian's time, but as it\ntravels through time that shouldn't be relevant.) Context doesn't help\nmuch, since Sidero is in a confused state when he says it. I wonder if\nit should really be taken in a more mystical sense as meaning 'this is\nthe archetypal ship; all the others are imitations of it'." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-10T22:02:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message ----- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Andrew Mason\" \nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We don't see Tzadkiel's ship until _UotNS_. In BotNS, however, we see \nlots\nof ships, and indeed spend much time in them.." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry, I totlally agree with your general point that Tzadkiel's ship\nisn't the only means of interstellar transport, but I'm worried about\nsome of the details." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "First there are the ships of the citatel, in one of which resides the \nGuild\nof Torturers. Conceivably these were only fit for transport within the\nSolar System, but there's no evidence either way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They resemble the ships known as 'landers' in _Long Sun_ and _Short\nSun_, which suggests they are short-haul vessels. (Though perhaps they\nwere meant to link up with long-haul ones.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fair enough - indeed the concept of a 'propulsion chamber' does not fit well \nwith the idea of relativistic velocities (but then again what does?)," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Typhon confirms that Urth\nat one time possessed many interstellar ships, on which many of his\nsupporters fled." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But he may be lying - which is, in fact, Severian's first reaction to\nhim. . I'm always surprised by how ready people are to believe what he\nsays in that scene. If he had interstellar ships (which would have to\nbe faster-than-light, I think, to get between the stars in times that\nwould enable him actually to run an empire) it becomes puzzling what\nwas the significance of his launching the Whorl - which Wolfe has said\nwas intended to 'return humanity to the stars'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe they were just nearly as fast as light, i.e. good enough to escape to \nthe stars. We don;t know much - or anything, really - about the politics \nof his empire. And as you mention elsewhere, Vodalus confirms the fact of \nships, so it's not just Typhon.\n\nAs for the Whorl, perhaps it is a question of scale. The Whorl can \ntransport many millions of perhaps unwilling colonists. Smaller vessels \nmight not transport enough, and might also be even more prone to mission \ncreep.\n\n[The Whorl itself is also contradictory from another technological point of \nview. If you consider the energy required to accelerate an object of this \nmass to relativistic velocity, it will be apparent that the dimming of the \nSun, or even its complete extinction, should have been easily compensatable. \nBut perhaps it is best not to look too closely into such details.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jonas served on an interstellar ship which crashed on Urth a little \nnorth of\nNessus. This ship became incorporated within the House Absolute; the\nAntechamber was part of it. It was equipped with a set of mirrors which\napparently had interstellar capability. (These may or may not be the \nsame\nones used by Fr. Inire.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jonas was on an interstellar ship which crashed, certainly (which in\nitself supports your point). There also seems to have been a ship\nwhich crashed in the gorunds of the House Absolute, and whose\npassengers became residents of the antechamber. I don't see any\nevidence that it was the same ship - Jonas recognises the name 'Kim\nLee Soong' as one that would have been common in his youth, but\ndoesn't say 'Oh yes, he was an old mate of mine'. And I also don't see\nany evidence that the antechamber was _part_ of the ship - I took it\nthat the passengers were found trespassing in the grounds of the House\nAbsolute, and thrown into the antechamber, as such people are. (I also\ndon't remember anything about Jonas's ship having mirrors, but I may\njust be forgetting that.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Remember, it was not just the name that Jonas recognised. He also \nrecognised the architecture \"that was what we used to call a drop ceiling\". \nAnd after they escaped from the Antechamber, Jonas immediately knew where to \ngo to find the mirrors, which he used to escape somewhere off Urth (he said \nearlier \"I know where we are.. we are on Urth\"). I conclude that it was \nJonas's ship, or one just like it - at it seems more elegant that it be the \nsame vessel..\n\nPerhaps some of the ship's crew stayed aboard and were interned there \npending resolution of their cases, and it later became used for other \nindividuals." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand: Vodalus talks about humans in the first empire\nleaping between the stars, and even the galaxies, in their own ships\n(not just as crew in ships commanded by Hierodules). Admittedly\nVodalus isn't the most reliable witness, but no one ever says he is\nwrong; the dispute is about how those days can be brought back, not\nabout whether they existed.\n\nSeverian in _Urth_ mentions the ships putting into Port of Lune - I\ndon't get the impression they are just going to Verthandi and Skuld;\nthe question is raised whether Tzadkiel's ship is the only\nlong-distance one, but I think in this context Sirius, say, would not\ncount as long-distance." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian does at some point refer to \"the nearer stars\" as if there are \ndistant and poweful alien empires also." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now there is a line where Sidero, quoting Tzadkiel, says 'There is\nonly one ship. All the ships we hail between the stars are this ship.'\nThis line is very mysterious, given how much else seems inconsistent\nwith it. (It might be the only such ship in Severian's time, but as it\ntravels through time that shouldn't be relevant.) Context doesn't help\nmuch, since Sidero is in a confused state when he says it. I wonder if\nit should really be taken in a more mystical sense as meaning 'this is\nthe archetypal ship; all the others are imitations of it'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps it is the only one of its type. The idea probably comes from a \nwhimsical physical conceit (I think Feynman thought of it, but it might have \nbeen Wheeler) that all electrons in the universe may be the same electron, \ntravelling forward and backward in time. [Of course it is not really \ncorrect.]\n\nIt may also be that Tzadkiel's ship travels where no others do.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2556B38DD612431FBE9AFB6C231E1728@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-11T06:00:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Gerry Quinn\" \nFrom: \"Andrew Mason\" \nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jonas served on an interstellar ship which crashed on Urth a little \nnorth of\nNessus. This ship became incorporated within the House Absolute; the\nAntechamber was part of it. It was equipped with a set of mirrors which\napparently had interstellar capability. (These may or may not be the \nsame ones used by Fr. Inire.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jonas was on an interstellar ship which crashed, certainly (which in\nitself supports your point). There also seems to have been a ship\nwhich crashed in the gorunds of the House Absolute, and whose\npassengers became residents of the antechamber. I don't see any\nevidence that it was the same ship - Jonas recognises the name 'Kim\nLee Soong' as one that would have been common in his youth, but\ndoesn't say 'Oh yes, he was an old mate of mine'. And I also don't see\nany evidence that the antechamber was _part_ of the ship - I took it\nthat the passengers were found trespassing in the grounds of the House\nAbsolute, and thrown into the antechamber, as such people are. (I also\ndon't remember anything about Jonas's ship having mirrors, but I may\njust be forgetting that.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Remember, it was not just the name that Jonas recognised. He also \nrecognised the architecture \"that was what we used to call a drop \nceiling\". And after they escaped from the Antechamber, Jonas immediately \nknew where to go to find the mirrors, which he used to escape somewhere \noff Urth (he said earlier \"I know where we are.. we are on Urth\"). I \nconclude that it was Jonas's ship, or one just like it - and it seems more \nelegant that it be the same vessel..\n\nPerhaps some of the ship's crew stayed aboard and were interned there \npending resolution of their cases, and it later became used for other \nindividuals." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another piece of evidence for this - when Severian and Jonas were arrested \non the grounds of the House Absolute, they were led down into a hollow in \nthe ground. I only realised just now that it must be a crater left by the \ncrashed spaceship.\n\nIt is interesting how much of the architecture of Urth is made up of wrecked \nspacecraft!\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D037141.20004@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-11T12:40:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<2556B38DD612431FBE9AFB6C231E1728@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But drop ceilings are found in basements and office buildings. Are they \nalso found in ships?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/11/2010 1:00 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Gerry Quinn\" \nFrom: \"Andrew Mason\" \nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Jonas served on an interstellar ship which crashed on Urth a \nlittle > north of\nNessus. This ship became incorporated within the House Absolute; the\nAntechamber was part of it. It was equipped with a set of mirrors \nwhich\napparently had interstellar capability. (These may or may not be \nthe > same ones used by Fr. Inire.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jonas was on an interstellar ship which crashed, certainly (which in\nitself supports your point). There also seems to have been a ship\nwhich crashed in the gorunds of the House Absolute, and whose\npassengers became residents of the antechamber. I don't see any\nevidence that it was the same ship - Jonas recognises the name 'Kim\nLee Soong' as one that would have been common in his youth, but\ndoesn't say 'Oh yes, he was an old mate of mine'. And I also don't see\nany evidence that the antechamber was _part_ of the ship - I took it\nthat the passengers were found trespassing in the grounds of the House\nAbsolute, and thrown into the antechamber, as such people are. (I also\ndon't remember anything about Jonas's ship having mirrors, but I may\njust be forgetting that.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Remember, it was not just the name that Jonas recognised. He also \nrecognised the architecture \"that was what we used to call a drop \nceiling\". And after they escaped from the Antechamber, Jonas \nimmediately knew where to go to find the mirrors, which he used to \nescape somewhere off Urth (he said earlier \"I know where we are.. we \nare on Urth\"). I conclude that it was Jonas's ship, or one just like \nit - and it seems more elegant that it be the same vessel..\n\nPerhaps some of the ship's crew stayed aboard and were interned there \npending resolution of their cases, and it later became used for other \nindividuals." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another piece of evidence for this - when Severian and Jonas were \narrested on the grounds of the House Absolute, they were led down into \na hollow in the ground. I only realised just now that it must be a \ncrater left by the crashed spaceship.\n\nIt is interesting how much of the architecture of Urth is made up of \nwrecked spacecraft!\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<466503ECFA9B45968BD1A1DAA703C0E9@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-11T15:42:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D037141.20004@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message ----- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"David Stockhoff\" \nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 12:40 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.\nBut drop ceilings are found in basements and office buildings. Are they \nalso found in ships?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not just about the ceiling:\n Jonas pulled himself up until he was sitting with his back to the wall. \nHis face had gone pale under the brown, and it shone with perspiration \nas he said, \"Can't you imagine how this place came to be? Look around you.\"\n\n I did so, seeing no more than I had seen before: the sprawling room with \nits dim lamps.\n\n \"This used to be a suite-several suites, probably. The walls have been \ntorn away, and a uniform floor laid over all the old ones. I'm sure \nthat's what we used to call a drop ceiling. If you were to lift one of those \npanels, you'd see the original structure above it.\"\n\nMy interpretation is that Jonas recognises the structural materials of which \nthe walls of the antechamber are composed and/or their design, because they \nare part of his old spaceship.\n\nI wouldn't say I'm wedded to this theory, but it seems plausible, given the \nother supporting evidence. And it would be typical of Wolfe to hide such a \nthing in plain sight (I wonder if my differences with Lee and James are in \npart due to us looking for puzzle solutions in different places? They look \nfor allusions, I look at descriptions and events in the story.)\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D03B05E.3010403@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-11T17:09:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<466503ECFA9B45968BD1A1DAA703C0E9@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So a drop ceiling is simply a cover---in plain sight---for something \nWolfe does not reveal at all. Yes, that's about right.\n\n It could be a ship---if the hull is both plumb and level." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/11/2010 10:42 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n----- Original Message ----- From: \"David Stockhoff\" \n\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 12:40 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But drop ceilings are found in basements and office buildings. Are \nthey also found in ships?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's not just about the ceiling:\n Jonas pulled himself up until he was sitting with his back to the \nwall. His face had gone pale under the brown, and it shone with \nperspiration as he said, \"Can't you imagine how this place came to be? \nLook around you.\"\n\n I did so, seeing no more than I had seen before: the sprawling room \nwith its dim lamps.\n\n \"This used to be a suite-several suites, probably. The walls have \nbeen torn away, and a uniform floor laid over all the old ones. \nI'm sure that's what we used to call a drop ceiling. If you were to \nlift one of those panels, you'd see the original \nstructure above it.\"\n\nMy interpretation is that Jonas recognises the structural materials of \nwhich the walls of the antechamber are composed and/or their design, \nbecause they are part of his old spaceship.\n\nI wouldn't say I'm wedded to this theory, but it seems plausible, \ngiven the other supporting evidence. And it would be typical of Wolfe \nto hide such a thing in plain sight (I wonder if my differences with \nLee and James are in part due to us looking for puzzle solutions in \ndifferent places? They look for allusions, I look at descriptions and \nevents in the story.)\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6DE6C06432F84DF99D01D0F4FBC2B44D@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-11T19:38:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D03B05E.3010403@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"David Stockhoff\" \nSo a drop ceiling is simply a cover---in plain sight---for something Wolfe \ndoes not reveal at all. Yes, that's about right.\n\n It could be a ship---if the hull is both plumb and level." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a point. A slight slant on the floor would have been a nice \nadditional clue, but alas, there is no indication of such a thing.\n\nStill, if it isn't Jonas's ship, or a similar one, how does one explain his \nobservations (which are confirmed by Severian) about the architecture of the \nplace? And when they found the transporter room, Jonas was instantly able \nto activate the controls.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<259897.54481.qm@web114710.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-11T20:12:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<6DE6C06432F84DF99D01D0F4FBC2B44D@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn \nFrom: \"David Stockhoff\" \nSo a drop ceiling is simply a cover---in plain sight---for something Wolfe \ndoes not reveal at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\n\nActually, he does reveal it. \"Beyond it I saw a network of slender metal bars, \nand through\nthem a vaulted ceiling with many moldings and a flaking painting [of] clouds and \nbirds.\"\n(CotNS, Ch. XVI.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Still, if it isn't Jonas's ship, or a similar one, how does one explain his \nobservations (which\nare confirmed by Severian) about the architecture of the place?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As far as I can tell, all he observes is the drop ceiling, which he might have \nseen on a ship or\non the ground.\n\nA vaulted ceiling is a bit odd for a spaceship but quite normal for a room built \nunderground." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And when they found the transporter room, Jonas was instantly able to activate \nthe controls." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That just suggests that at least some ground-based and ship-based transporters \nare made the\nsame way. There's no obvious reason for them to be different, and an obvious \nreason for them\nto be the same.\n\nI assume that if I were on an ocean liner, I'd know how to work the phones. \nMaybe a better\nanalogy is that someone who could handle an ordinary motorboat could probably \nhandle\na lifeboat.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D03DFB1.1000200@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-11T20:31:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<466503ECFA9B45968BD1A1DAA703C0E9@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn-\nMy interpretation is that Jonas recognises the structural materials of \nwhich the walls of the antechamber are composed and/or their design, \nbecause they are part of his old spaceship." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting theory. It seems to me the consensus has been that Jonas \ncame from the Tzadkiel ship. If that's true and Jonas recognizes the \nship, wouldn't it suggest that House Absolute is founded on the wreckage \nof Tzadkiel?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wouldn't say I'm wedded to this theory, but it seems plausible, \ngiven the other supporting evidence. And it would be typical of Wolfe \nto hide such a thing in plain sight (I wonder if my differences with \nLee and James are in part due to us looking for puzzle solutions in \ndifferent places? They look for allusions, I look at descriptions and \nevents in the story.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, it can't be as simple as that. If it were Lee and I would be find \nthis theory untenable because it lacks clear, undeniable allusive marks.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6E0E67AB0A4B48F2B90411A7EEB263C6@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-11T21:07:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<259897.54481.qm@web114710.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " From: Jerry Friedman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " From: Gerry Quinn \nFrom: \"David Stockhoff\" \nSo a drop ceiling is simply a cover---in plain sight---for something Wolfe does not reveal at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " ...\n Actually, he does reveal it. \"Beyond it I saw a network of slender metal bars, and through\n them a vaulted ceiling with many moldings and a flaking painting [of] clouds and birds.\"\n (CotNS, Ch. XVI.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Still, if it isn't Jonas's ship, or a similar one, how does one explain his observations (which\nare confirmed by Severian) about the architecture of the place?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As far as I can tell, all he observes is the drop ceiling, which he might have seen on a ship or\non the ground." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but he also talks about how the room \"used to be a suite - several suites, possibly\". So he observes more more than the drop ceiling.\n\nIt did occur to me that maybe Jonas was just familiar with typical architecture of his time - but of course that doesn't really fit, because he comes from the distant past, perhaps close to our time! It is a tenable idea, I suppose, that drop ceilings are simply a commonplace of all technologies a bit higher than Urth's." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A vaulted ceiling is a bit odd for a spaceship but quite normal for a room built underground." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know enough about futuristic spaceship design to answer that ;-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And when they found the transporter room, Jonas was instantly able to activate the controls." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That just suggests that at least some ground-based and ship-based transporters are made the\nsame way. There's no obvious reason for them to be different, and an obvious reason for them\nto be the same." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But there's also no especial need for an interstellar transporter on a spaceship - short-range transporters would be useful, but an interstellar transport is hardly essential. And shuttlecraft could serve as well - besides, Jonas's ship is capable of planetary landings \n\nOne possible reading is that Jonas simply understands how to use all high tech equipment, even that dating from vastly in the future of the time he and his ship were constructed. \n\nBut doesn't the notion that the antechamber is a re-purposed part of Jonas's ship tie things up more elegantly?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D03E8D4.3030903@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-11T21:10:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<6DE6C06432F84DF99D01D0F4FBC2B44D@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can only conclude that the evidence points to a ship that landed \nproperly. I don't recall the passages well enough to have an opinion on \nhow close to the antechamber the known shipwreck had to be or whether it \nwas a wreck or a crashlanding.\n\nBut the potential number of stranded ships must be large. This could be \n\"another\" ship. The House Absolute would not be a strange place for an \nailing ship to land.\n\nRecall the crashlanded ship in the lake in The Ziggurat. Wolfe \ndefinitely takes these details into account." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/11/2010 2:38 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"David Stockhoff\" \nSo a drop ceiling is simply a cover---in plain sight---for something \nWolfe does not reveal at all. Yes, that's about right." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " It could be a ship---if the hull is both plumb and level." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's a point. A slight slant on the floor would have been a nice \nadditional clue, but alas, there is no indication of such a thing.\n\nStill, if it isn't Jonas's ship, or a similar one, how does one \nexplain his observations (which are confirmed by Severian) about the \narchitecture of the place? And when they found the transporter room, \nJonas was instantly able to activate the controls.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<312889718C654EFAAB6790D7BF7C87F8@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-11T21:38:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D03DFB1.1000200@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \nGerry Quinn-\nMy interpretation is that Jonas recognises the structural materials of \nwhich the walls of the antechamber are composed and/or their design, \nbecause they are part of his old spaceship." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interesting theory. It seems to me the consensus has been that Jonas came \nfrom the Tzadkiel ship. If that's true and Jonas recognizes the ship, \nwouldn't it suggest that House Absolute is founded on the wreckage of \nTzadkiel?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I never heard that theory. I don't believe it, because Jonas comes from the \ndistant past (and so does Kim Lee Soong and presumably many others). \nPresumably they came on a ship from that era. Jonas tells how they got lost \nin time and when they returned to Urth the spaceport was gone. They \nattempted to land anyway, but since Jonas was injured and someone on the \nground was killed, it must have been a crash landing.\n\nTzadkiel's ship is not designed to land, and would not have attempted to do \nso." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I wouldn't say I'm wedded to this theory, but it seems plausible, given \nthe other supporting evidence. And it would be typical of Wolfe to hide \nsuch a thing in plain sight (I wonder if my differences with Lee and \nJames are in part due to us looking for puzzle solutions in different \nplaces? They look for allusions, I look at descriptions and events in \nthe story.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, it can't be as simple as that. If it were Lee and I would be find \nthis theory untenable because it lacks clear, undeniable allusive marks." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D03F2E2.4090403@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-11T21:53:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<259897.54481.qm@web114710.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I remember that now. Yes, the painted ceiling is not in a starship. Thanks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/11/2010 3:12 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n*From:* Gerry Quinn \n**\nFrom: \"David Stockhoff\" >\nSo a drop ceiling is simply a cover---in plain sight---for \nsomething Wolfe does not reveal at all.\n...\n\n\nActually, he does reveal it. \"Beyond it I saw a network of slender \nmetal bars, and through\nthem a vaulted ceiling with many moldings and a flaking painting [of] \nclouds and birds.\"\n(CotNS, Ch. XVI.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Still, if it isn't Jonas's ship, or a similar one, how does one \nexplain his observations (which\nare confirmed by Severian) about the architecture of the place?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As far as I can tell, all he observes is the drop ceiling, which he \nmight have seen on a ship or\non the ground.\n\nA vaulted ceiling is a bit odd for a spaceship but quite normal for a \nroom built underground." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And when they found the transporter room, Jonas was instantly able \nto activate the controls." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That just suggests that at least some ground-based and ship-based \ntransporters are made the\nsame way. There's no obvious reason for them to be different, and an \nobvious reason for them\nto be the same.\n\nI assume that if I were on an ocean liner, I'd know how to work the \nphones. Maybe a better\nanalogy is that someone who could handle an ordinary motorboat could \nprobably handle\na lifeboat.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1AF66D5C18F6435987404127733B14E3@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-11T22:02:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D03F2E2.4090403@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"David Stockhoff\" \nI remember that now. Yes, the painted ceiling is not in a starship. Thanks." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why not? Must starships always have bare, metallic ceilings?\n\nIt could be that some starship captains prefer a more ornate decorative \nstyle. What sort of image would they choose? Well, if one were travelling \non long voyages away from Urth, why not something that would remind homesick \nsailors of their home? Clouds and birds, perhaps. Clouds and birds on an \nUrthly ceiling would be a little pointless after all, when one can just go \noutside and see the real thing. One might argue that the clouds and birds \nare therefore actually a hint that the ceiling is that of a starship!\n\nOr maybe the clouds could refer to the name of the ship: the Fortunate \nCloud.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/11/2010 3:12 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* Gerry Quinn \n**\nFrom: \"David Stockhoff\" >\nSo a drop ceiling is simply a cover---in plain sight---for\nsomething Wolfe does not reveal at all.\n...\nActually, he does reveal it. \"Beyond it I saw a network of slender metal \nbars, and through\nthem a vaulted ceiling with many moldings and a flaking painting [of] \nclouds and birds.\"\n(CotNS, Ch. XVI.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D053F5C.2080704@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-12T21:32:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<1AF66D5C18F6435987404127733B14E3@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wooden ships used to be carefully and colorfully painted. And rooms in \nthose ships would be opened up for dinner and divided up for sleep, much \nas larger rooms in older buildings have been divided up for cubicles or \napartments for about 100 years now.\n\nBut that's different. And imagine the problems you'd have with painted \nrooms in a starship, even without flaking paint.\n\nI like the thought that clouds relate to the Fortunate Cloud. But \npainted vaulted ceilings tend to have skies painted on them. Such a \nceiling could not be more ordinary in a palace. It would be quite \nremarkable in a starship. I have never seen such a starship in Wolfe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/11/2010 5:02 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"David Stockhoff\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I remember that now. Yes, the painted ceiling is not in a starship. \nThanks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why not? Must starships always have bare, metallic ceilings?\n\nIt could be that some starship captains prefer a more ornate \ndecorative style. What sort of image would they choose? Well, if one \nwere travelling on long voyages away from Urth, why not something that \nwould remind homesick sailors of their home? Clouds and birds, \nperhaps. Clouds and birds on an Urthly ceiling would be a little \npointless after all, when one can just go outside and see the real \nthing. One might argue that the clouds and birds are therefore \nactually a hint that the ceiling is that of a starship!\n\nOr maybe the clouds could refer to the name of the ship: the \nFortunate Cloud.\n\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-13T01:11:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D053F5C.2080704@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"David Stockhoff\" \nWooden ships used to be carefully and colorfully painted. And rooms in \nthose ships would be opened up for dinner and divided up for sleep, much \nas larger rooms in older buildings have been divided up for cubicles or \napartments for about 100 years now.\n\nBut that's different. And imagine the problems you'd have with painted \nrooms in a starship, even without flaking paint." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I can't. What problems do you mean? We know from textual \nevidence that Jonas's ship had artifical gravity, so the environment inside \nwas fairly Urthlike, and flaking paint would hardly have caused insuperable \nproblems. What of a modern day seagoing ship - is there any reason why it \nshould not have such a ceiling? If not, why should it be a problem for one \nof Wolfe's starships?\n\nGene Wolfe does not describe starship interiors much, so we really don't \nknow what they are like. The Whorl is described in detail, but it clearly \ndoes not resemble Jonas's ship. I don't really remember details of \nTzadkiel's, but that is also prety unique anyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I like the thought that clouds relate to the Fortunate Cloud. But painted \nvaulted ceilings tend to have skies painted on them. Such a ceiling could \nnot be more ordinary in a palace. It would be quite remarkable in a \nstarship. I have never seen such a starship in Wolfe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The only starships I can think of in Wolfe whose interiors are described in \ndetail are the Whorl, and the one in the novella Silhouette. The current \ntwo-book collections of BotLS actually show moulded ceilings in the cover \nart! The starship in Silhouette is unlikely to have them, but that is \nperhaps a cultural issue; it could have supported them easily.\n\nAnyway, I don't want to get into a war over such details. I am defending \nthe theory, but as I said I am not wedded to it. And our interpretations of \nBotNS do not stand or fall on the question of whether the Antechamber was or \nwas not part of Jonas's starship. But I ask again: has anyone any better \nexplanation for Jonas's (confirmed) architectural observations and the other \nthings I mentioned?\n\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0578D5.1050602@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-13T01:37:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's simple. Jonas recognized the architecture as Urthly architecture \nmuch like our own. He recognized technology from a time he was familiar \nwith. He's been around 20,00 years and has touched on Urth many times.\n\nThe Whorl is not a starship. It has ways of binding its dust, microbes, \ntoxins, and allergens so that the air is scrubbed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/12/2010 8:11 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"David Stockhoff\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wooden ships used to be carefully and colorfully painted. And rooms \nin those ships would be opened up for dinner and divided up for \nsleep, much as larger rooms in older buildings have been divided up \nfor cubicles or apartments for about 100 years now.\n\nBut that's different. And imagine the problems you'd have with \npainted rooms in a starship, even without flaking paint." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, I can't. What problems do you mean? We know from textual \nevidence that Jonas's ship had artifical gravity, so the environment \ninside was fairly Urthlike, and flaking paint would hardly have caused \ninsuperable problems. What of a modern day seagoing ship - is there \nany reason why it should not have such a ceiling? If not, why should \nit be a problem for one of Wolfe's starships?\n\nGene Wolfe does not describe starship interiors much, so we really \ndon't know what they are like. The Whorl is described in detail, but \nit clearly does not resemble Jonas's ship. I don't really remember \ndetails of Tzadkiel's, but that is also prety unique anyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I like the thought that clouds relate to the Fortunate Cloud. But \npainted vaulted ceilings tend to have skies painted on them. Such a \nceiling could not be more ordinary in a palace. It would be quite \nremarkable in a starship. I have never seen such a starship in Wolfe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The only starships I can think of in Wolfe whose interiors are \ndescribed in detail are the Whorl, and the one in the novella \nSilhouette. The current two-book collections of BotLS actually show \nmoulded ceilings in the cover art! The starship in Silhouette is \nunlikely to have them, but that is perhaps a cultural issue; it could \nhave supported them easily.\n\nAnyway, I don't want to get into a war over such details. I am \ndefending the theory, but as I said I am not wedded to it. And our \ninterpretations of BotNS do not stand or fall on the question of \nwhether the Antechamber was or was not part of Jonas's starship. But \nI ask again: has anyone any better explanation for Jonas's (confirmed) \narchitectural observations and the other things I mentioned?\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<992313.88493.qm@web114715.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-13T02:21:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn \nFrom: \"David Stockhoff\" \nWooden ships used to be carefully and colorfully painted. And rooms in those \nships would be opened up for dinner and divided up for sleep, much as larger \nrooms in older buildings have been divided up for cubicles or apartments for \nabout 100 years now.\n\nBut that's different. And imagine the problems you'd have with painted rooms in \na starship, even without flaking paint." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, I can't." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nMe neither." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I like the thought that clouds relate to the Fortunate Cloud. But painted \nvaulted ceilings tend to\nhave skies painted on them. Such a ceiling could not be more ordinary in a \npalace." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. Everything we know about the antechamber seems normal for a palace in \nwhich an\nunderground waiting room was expanded as Jonas describes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It would be quite remarkable in a starship." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nNot so much for the painting, in my opinion, as for the vaulting. If rooms in a \nstarship have vaulted\nceilings, you get lots of strangely shaped spaces between them and the floor \nabove. Of course,\nthose spaces /could/ be just right for the flux capacitors..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, I don't want to get into a war over such details. I am defending the \ntheory, but as I said I\nam not wedded to it. And our interpretations of BotNS do not stand or fall on \nthe question of\nwhether the Antechamber was or was not part of Jonas's starship." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, wait! This has to be do-or-die!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I ask again: has anyone any better explanation for Jonas's (confirmed) \narchitectural observations\nand the other things I mentioned?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He just recognizes that the antechamber looks like a bunch of rooms joined into \none.\n\nWhat details does he have? The room is big, with a low ceiling, and he \nrecognizes it as a drop ceiling.\nThere are lots of alcoves and niches around the walls, presumably the outlines \nof the original rooms,\nand there's a uniform tile floor. That might be enough. Big rooms usually have \nhigh ceilings; this one's\nlow ceiling suggests the ceiling isn't the original. And big rooms in a palace \nmight be expected to have\nneat, symmetrical plans; this one's irregular outlines, probably shaped like \nparts of rooms, would also\nbe a clue.\n\nSince no pillars are mentioned, maybe only the walls are original. You seem to \nbe suggesting that\nJonas recognizes something about them, which Severian never mentions, as \nstarship architecture.\nBut I think there's enough other information for him to figure out what \nhappened.\n\nStay tuned for the next episode of This Old House Absolute.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2010-12-13T03:00:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<992313.88493.qm@web114715.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 12 Dec 2010, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \nFrom: \"David Stockhoff\" \n\nWhat details does he have? The room is big, with a low ceiling, and he\nrecognizes it as a drop ceiling.\nThere are lots of alcoves and niches around the walls, presumably the outlines\nof the original rooms,\nand there's a uniform tile floor. That might be enough. Big rooms usually have\nhigh ceilings; this one's\nlow ceiling suggests the ceiling isn't the original. And big rooms in a palace\nmight be expected to have\nneat, symmetrical plans; this one's irregular outlines, probably shaped like\nparts of rooms, would also\nbe a clue.\n\nStay tuned for the next episode of This Old House Absolute.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I always took this as an homage to _The Trial_.\n\nCheers, David Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D05A5CA.8020601@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-13T04:49:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/12/2010 07:11 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nAnyway, I don't want to get into a war over such details. I am \ndefending the theory, but as I said I am not wedded to it. And our \ninterpretations of BotNS do not stand or fall on the question of \nwhether the Antechamber was or was not part of Jonas's starship. But \nI ask again: has anyone any better explanation for Jonas's (confirmed) \narchitectural observations and the other things I mentioned? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Architecture?\n\nWell, Jonas was from a time not that far in advance of ours, one in \nwhich recognizably Korean names were still familiar.\n\nAnd the room was pretty clearly a large palatial room converted to \nboring drop-ceiling partitioned office space. One suspects that this \nhas been the fate of many monarchical buildings converted to \nbureaucratic workplaces as the Type Of Government clanked along its \nchain, in our time. I think it is likely that Jonas, as the \nrepresentative of Near Future [Ea|U]rth is more familiar with Cubeville \nthan is Severian.\n\nThe room's just a waiting room in bland government offices, complete \nwith cookies and coffee urn. It's just that the wait times have become \ngenerational; indeed, eternal.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<375611.52378.qm@web114716.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-13T05:27:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Duffy " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Sun, 12 Dec 2010, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nWhat details does he have? The room is big, with a low ceiling, and he\nrecognizes it as a drop ceiling.\nThere are lots of alcoves and niches around the walls, presumably the \noutlines\nof the original rooms,\nand there's a uniform tile floor. That might be enough. Big rooms usually \nhave\nhigh ceilings; this one's\nlow ceiling suggests the ceiling isn't the original. And big rooms in a \npalace\nmight be expected to have\nneat, symmetrical plans; this one's irregular outlines, probably shaped like\nparts of rooms, would also be a clue.\n\nStay tuned for the next episode of This Old House Absolute." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I always took this as an homage to _The Trial_." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry, I haven't read _The Trial_. What's the homage? The architecture of the \nantechamber?\nThe possibility of waiting indefinitely? (Though Wikip tells me Josef K.'s case \nwas disposed\nof in a year.)\n\nJerry Friedman\n\nCheers, David Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0613B6.3090202@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-13T12:38:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<992313.88493.qm@web114715.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If it IS a starship, it would make more sense if the vault was painted \nAFTER it was grounded.\n\nThe problem with painting a starship interior, which I am surprised no \none here sees, is that life support systems would fail if the crew went \naround renovating the ship. If it didn't fail, the crew eventually would \nget sick.\n\nUnless Typhon's starships went REAALLY fast." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/12/2010 9:21 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n*From:* Gerry Quinn \n**\nFrom: \"David Stockhoff\" >" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wooden ships used to be carefully and colorfully painted. And rooms \nin those ships would be opened up for dinner and divided up for sleep, \nmuch as larger rooms in older buildings have been divided up for \ncubicles or apartments for about 100 years now.\n\nBut that's different. And imagine the problems you'd have with \npainted rooms in a starship, even without flaking paint." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Actually, I can't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...\n\nMe neither." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I like the thought that clouds relate to the Fortunate Cloud. But \npainted vaulted ceilings tend to\nhave skies painted on them. Such a ceiling could not be more \nordinary in a palace." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree. Everything we know about the antechamber seems normal for a \npalace in which an\nunderground waiting room was expanded as Jonas describes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It would be quite remarkable in a starship." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...\n\nNot so much for the painting, in my opinion, as for the vaulting. If \nrooms in a starship have vaulted\nceilings, you get lots of strangely shaped spaces between them and the \nfloor above. Of course,\nthose spaces /could/ be just right for the flux capacitors..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0621E1.7000708@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-13T13:38:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D05A5CA.8020601@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right. It IS Kafkaesque." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/12/2010 11:49 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\nOn 12/12/2010 07:11 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nAnd the room was pretty clearly a large palatial room converted to \nboring drop-ceiling partitioned office space. One suspects that this \nhas been the fate of many monarchical buildings converted to \nbureaucratic workplaces as the Type Of Government clanked along its \nchain, in our time. I think it is likely that Jonas, as the \nrepresentative of Near Future [Ea|U]rth is more familiar with \nCubeville than is Severian.\n\nThe room's just a waiting room in bland government offices, complete \nwith cookies and coffee urn. It's just that the wait times have \nbecome generational; indeed, eternal.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-13T15:40:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D0621E1.7000708@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just thinking about Gene Wolfe's advocation for the dead/admiration for old masters, I could \nimagine him bored in his engineering office in an historic old Chicago building and deciding \nto get a ladder to see what was above the drop ceiling. Finding a dusty, long-neglected but \nbeautiful fresco on the old ceiling I could imagining him thinking, \"that sucks. I need to \nput this into my BotNS project\".\n \nThis Jonas talk inspired me to poke around a little. Hethor says his ship is called The Quasar \nand the connection to the Ship which brings the White Fountain seems hard to ignore.\n \nThe word QUASAR (quasi-stellar radio source) was coined in 1964. It was later discovered that 90%\nof such bodies were actually \"radio-quiet\" and that we were lucky to have discovered the 10% which \nare \"radio-loud\". Could \"lucky QUASAR radio-loud\" be converted to Fortunate Q-loud?\n \nJust shootin' the stuff. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-13T15:45:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D0613B6.3090202@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: \"David Stockhoff\" \n\nI'm combining two of your posts on the same issue:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's simple. Jonas recognized the architecture as Urthly architecture much \nlike our own. He recognized technology from a time he was familiar with. \nHe's been around 20,00 years and has touched on Urth many times." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \"We crashed. It had been so long, on Urth, that there was no port \nwhen we returned, no dock.\"\n\nI don't remember him saying how often he touched on Urth. But his last \njourney was very long indeed. He may well have made multiple voyages early \non (maybe around AD 3000) but then his ship got stuck near a black hole or \nsomething and re-emerged closer to Severian's time, probably at least \nseveral tens of thousands of years in the future.\n\nIt's not just drop ceilings that he recognised - he worked the mirror \ntransporter. How was he familiar with that technology? You would at first \nsight expect it to be wildly futuristic by his standards - but no, he was \ninstantly able to operate it.\n\n\nSomething else about the ceiling:\n \"You're right. There was an old ceiling above this one, for a room \nmuch smaller than this. How did you know?\"\n\n \"Because I talked to those people. Yesterday.\"\n\nNot because \"I'm a robot constructed as a crewman for a starship but for \nsome reason before I left I spent some time working in an office on Earth \nwhere there were drop ceilings\"\n\nThere's some connection here and it isn't architecture.\n\n\nHere's an interesting passage - Severian is half asleep and it leads it \nleads into where he wakes as Thecla. It could be coincidence - but what is \nhe thinking about? Distances, passages, stairs on a spaceship!\n Three hundred and ninety steps from the ground to our dormitory. How \nmany more to the room where the guns throbbed at the top of the \ntower? One, two, three, four, five, six guns. One, two, three levels of \ncells in use in the oubliette.\n\n\n\nHere's the entrance to the transporter room:\n\n We had descended perhaps a hundred steps when we reached a door \npainted with a crimson teratoid sign that appeared to me to be a \nglyph from some tongue beyond the shores of Urth.\n\nWolfe is spelling it out! Okay, an alternative interpretation is that the \nsymbol is associated with Inire. But if you prefer, here's another allusion \nto starflight. [See, I can play the allusion game too!]\n\n\n\n this wing has always been Father Inire's\n\nInire grabs the high tech stuff, natch. A starship is perfect for him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If it IS a starship, it would make more sense if the vault was painted \nAFTER it was grounded." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe renovations do happen in dry dock. Who knows. The paint was flaking, \nbut that is not necessarily due to a subjectively long voyage, as it has \nbeen neglected for a long time since anyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The problem with painting a starship interior, which I am surprised no one \nhere sees, is that life support systems would fail if the crew went around \nrenovating the ship. If it didn't fail, the crew eventually would get \nsick." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see how you can confidently assert that. Sure, if you tried to \nbring a conventional painting crew into a ramshackle vessel such as the \ncurrent International Space Station, it would probably cause a few problems. \nBut we are talking about a much more sophisticated vessel of the future. \nPossibly decorative materials also have advanced so that Sick Starship \nSyndrome is a concern of the past.\n\nWolfe repeatedly makes a connection between sea-going vessels and starships. \nCould a modern sea-going vessel have a painted vaulted ceiling? Of course \nit could!\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6A1D6C44870B4B1C80A66ED277627B08@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-13T16:55:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D05A5CA.8020601@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Adam Thornton\" \nOn 12/12/2010 07:11 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Anyway, I don't want to get into a war over such details. I am defending \nthe theory, but as I said I am not wedded to it. And our interpretations \nof BotNS do not stand or fall on the question of whether the Antechamber \nwas or was not part of Jonas's starship. But I ask again: has anyone any \nbetter explanation for Jonas's (confirmed) architectural observations and \nthe other things I mentioned?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Architecture?\n\nWell, Jonas was from a time not that far in advance of ours, one in which \nrecognizably Korean names were still familiar.\n\nAnd the room was pretty clearly a large palatial room converted to boring \ndrop-ceiling partitioned office space." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, no. It was several suites joined together." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " One suspects that this has been the fate of many monarchical buildings \nconverted to bureaucratic workplaces as the Type Of Government clanked \nalong its chain, in our time. I think it is likely that Jonas, as the \nrepresentative of Near Future [Ea|U]rth is more familiar with Cubeville \nthan is Severian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But is Jonas the representative of Near Future Urth? He is a robot built to \nserve on a starship; he may well have been carried aboard in a box along \nwith Hethor's paracoita. (Here's a thought - did Talos use bits of the \nparacoita to make Jolenta? Jonas's love explained at last!)\n\nJonas might well never have seen Urth before his spaceship crashed there.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-13T17:29:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 13, 2010, at 7:40 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nCould \"lucky QUASAR radio-loud\" be converted to Fortunate Q-loud?\n\nJust shootin' the stuff. \n______________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you meant, \"Just smokin' the stuff\"\n\n:)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-13T18:56:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Son o' Witz- I think you meant, \"Just smokin' the stuff\" :)\n\n \nHah! :- P!\n \nAntechamber aside, I can't help but feel the discussion of Jonas's ship is missing a major thematic\nconnection. Jonas and Hethor and Father Inire all have a facility with mirrors. All have served on \na spaceship or come from other worlds. Hethor notes he served various roles on his Quasar ship with \ndemon-haunted sails. Severian has a spaceship and fountain in his mausoleum crest. Severian's crowning \nachievement is to take a ship and retrieve the New Sun.\n \nShip, ship, ship. Sure we can postulate that Jonas' ship was some other ship which happened to use mirrors.\nBut I just don't feel that's how Wolfe is working, especially with BotNS. With this story he has constructed\na *Labyrinth*. A closed off \"world\" which does not allow excessive outside introductions to clutter things up. \nInstead every twist turns the story back on itself. Each branch of the path brings one (us and Severian) back \nto familiar scenes with familiar characters. \n \nWolfe is working like Dr. Talos. Instead of recruiting lots of different actors to play the many parts, he finds\nways to disguise his existing actors so they can play multiple parts. A criticism of my Father Inire Theory is \nthat I am finding him everywhere. I think this is not a weakness but rather its supreme strength. In my view \nFather Inire is stunningly, breathtakingly everywhere.\n \nI think Gene Wolfe expected us to be able to (intuitively?) gather the evidence above and conclude that there\nwas only one Ship for Father Inire, for Hethor, for Jonas and for Severian. Nobody was smart enough to do that.\nSo in UotNS he showed us THE Ship (and did not show us any other interstellar ships). He showed us the sails and \ntheir action in close detail. He showed us beings resembling Jonas on this ship. He shows us a sailor who resembles \nHethor on this ship (in the hologram Autarch scene). It is enough for me. I get it, there is no \"perhaps\". In the \nSolar Labyrinth there is only room for One Ship.\n \nWolfe shows us Severian on this ship. He kinda shows us Jonah and Hethor. But someone is missing. Where is\nFather Inire? If he were to be on The Ship, how would we know him? What is his essence? \n \nOn Urth, Inire was a never-seen mysterious figure who might have taken various guises, shapes, sizes and even \nspecies forms to keep tabs on Severian. We have a figure like that on The Ship. On Urth, we have Inire as a\ndemi-urgical ruling power who works both sides of wars and conflicts to achieve his goals. On The Ship (the\ntrip TO Yesod) we have an all-powerful Captain who is never seen but who is somehow unable to control a \nmutiny of jibers; a conflict Severian gets embroiled in. A necessary embroilment as we later find out.\n \nAfter Severian gets on the ship, why has Father Inire not been helping Valeria as Autarch after 1000 years of \ndoing just that? out when Severian got on The Ship? Where did he go? Why did Hethor seem so sincere in his reverence \nand respect for Severian, \"My Master!\" Why did Tzadkiel say he had been an acolyte of Severian's in another past \nuniverse?\n \nFor me the dots are not too far apart and fairly easy to connect. There may be bits of counter-evidence tossed\nhere and there to confuse us. Wolfe always does that. But the big picture is too big and clear for me to ignore.\nFather Inire is everywhere. He is demonic, he is angelic. He is scientific, political and magical. He is gigantic \nand tiny, animal, human, alien, male, and female. Father Inire is master of all opposites. Father Inire is.... \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<996066.34319.qm@web84103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-13T20:21:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I bet some kind of pun like that---maybe not quite so stretched as this---is the answer to that riddle.\nMore like, What pun would I make if I knew a little about Chinese and way too much about astrophysics/astronomy?\n\n--- On Mon, 12/13/10, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, December 13, 2010, 12:29 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 13, 2010, at 7:40 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nCould \"lucky QUASAR radio-loud\" be converted to Fortunate Q-loud?\n\nJust shootin' the stuff. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???\n______________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you meant, \"Just smokin' the stuff\"\n\n:)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<33757.83490.qm@web84101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-13T20:46:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Mon, 12/13/10, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, December 13, 2010, 10:45 AM\n\n\nFrom: \"David Stockhoff\" \n\nI'm combining? two of your posts on the same issue:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's simple. Jonas recognized the architecture as Urthly architecture much like our own. He recognized technology from a time he was familiar with. He's been around 20,00 years and has touched on Urth many times." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "? ? ???\"We crashed. It had been so long, on Urth, that there was no port when we returned, no dock.\"\n\nI don't remember him saying how often he touched on Urth. But his last journey was very long indeed. He may well have made multiple voyages early on (maybe around AD 3000) but then his ship got stuck near a black hole or something and re-emerged closer to Severian's time, probably at least several tens of thousands of years in the future.\n\nIt's not just drop ceilings that he recognised - he worked the mirror transporter. How was he familiar with that technology? You would at first sight expect it to be wildly futuristic by his standards - but no, he was instantly able to operate it.\n---I don't understand your assumptions. Is transporter technology incompatible with inexpensive-renovation technology? Is it impossible to build transporters on or under the ground? So maybe they had them on ships. So what?\nOTOH, the very idea of a drop ceiling on a spaceship is almost silly. They are filthy because they trap dirt. They are meant only to hide pipes and so on. On a spaceship, you can't waste your payload on things like that, and you would organize your functional space more efficiently than to have inaccessible pipes. Think submarines, not aircraft carriers.\nIf you did have them, they would be much better designed than something intended to hang lights from and keep off flaking paint.\n\n\nSomething else about the ceiling:\n? ? ???\"You're right. There was an old ceiling above this one, for a room much smaller than this. How did you know?\"\n\n? ? ???\"Because I talked to those people. Yesterday.\"\n\nNot because \"I'm a robot constructed as a crewman for a starship but for some reason before I left I spent some time working in an office on Earth where there were drop ceilings\"\n---What do office buildings have to do with it? Just because YOU have seen this technology in an office building?\n\nThere's some connection here and it isn't architecture.\n\n\nHere's an interesting passage - Severian is half asleep and it leads it leads into where he wakes as Thecla. It could be coincidence - but what is he thinking about? Distances, passages, stairs on a spaceship!\n? ? ???Three hundred and ninety steps from the ground to our dormitory. How many more to the room where the? ? ? ???guns throbbed at the top of the tower? One, two, three, four, five, six guns. One, two, three levels of cells? ? ? ???in? use in the oubliette.\n\n\n\nHere's the entrance to the transporter room:\n\n? ? ???We had descended perhaps a hundred steps when we reached a door painted with a crimson teratoid? ? ? ? ? ???sign that appeared to me to be a glyph from some tongue beyond the shores of Urth.\n\nWolfe is spelling it out!? Okay, an alternative interpretation is that the symbol is associated with Inire. But if you prefer, here's another allusion to starflight. [See, I can play the allusion game too!]\n? ? ???this wing has always been Father Inire's\n\nInire grabs the high tech stuff, natch. A starship is perfect for him.\n\n---Meaningless. You can't have stairs and doors with DANGER glyphs underground?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If it IS a starship, it would make more sense if the vault was painted AFTER it was grounded." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe renovations do happen in dry dock. Who knows. The paint was flaking, but that is not necessarily due to a subjectively long voyage, as it has been neglected for a long time since anyway.\n---My point was that IF it is a \"crashed\" (and subsequently righted) ship, plainly it has been treated as ordinary Urthly architecture for a long time. This is an improvement to your theory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The problem with painting a starship interior, which I am surprised no one here sees, is that life support systems would fail if the crew went around renovating the ship. If it didn't fail, the crew eventually would get sick." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see how you can confidently assert that. Sure, if you tried to bring a conventional painting crew into a ramshackle vessel such as the current International Space Station, it would probably cause a few problems. But we are talking about a much more sophisticated vessel of the future. Possibly decorative materials also have advanced so that Sick Starship Syndrome is a concern of the past.\n\n---I can confidently assert it because I have no choice but to do so. It's simple physics+medicine. Wolfe is a materials engineer. He knows about particulate matter. He may not know much about lungs, but he knows about rules dictating how much dust factory workers can breathe. Even wood dust is deadly---and highly flammable too.\nIf your future super-safe paint is to be admitted as evidence, why does it flake? Why not create pre-fab colored panels?\n\n\nWolfe repeatedly makes a connection between sea-going vessels and starships. Could a modern sea-going vessel have a painted vaulted ceiling? Of course it could!\n---Sure, and you can lean on the railing and smoke those big see-gars on deck. Just like in a spaceship!\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-13T20:54:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<33757.83490.qm@web84101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 12:46 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n---Sure, and you can lean on the railing and smoke those big see-gars on\ndeck. Just like in a spaceship!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, you probably could on Tzadkiel's ship..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<791127.1718.qm@web84103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-13T22:01:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<6A1D6C44870B4B1C80A66ED277627B08@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On board a ship, those \"suites\" would have been called something else: compartments, probably.\n\"Suites' are found in office buildings and hotels.\n\n--- On Mon, 12/13/10, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, December 13, 2010, 11:55 AM\nFrom: \"Adam Thornton\" \nOn 12/12/2010 07:11 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Anyway, I don't want to get into a war over such details. I am defending the theory, but as I said I am not wedded to it. And our interpretations of BotNS do not stand or fall on the question of whether the Antechamber was or was not part of Jonas's starship. But I ask again: has anyone any better explanation for Jonas's (confirmed) architectural observations and the other things I mentioned?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Architecture?\n\nWell, Jonas was from a time not that far in advance of ours, one in which recognizably Korean names were still familiar.\n\nAnd the room was pretty clearly a large palatial room converted to boring drop-ceiling partitioned office space." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, no. It was several suites joined together." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "? One suspects that this has been the fate of many monarchical buildings converted to bureaucratic workplaces as the Type Of Government clanked along its chain, in our time. I think it is likely that Jonas, as the representative of Near Future [Ea|U]rth is more familiar with Cubeville than is Severian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But is Jonas the representative of Near Future Urth? He is a robot built to serve on a starship; he may well have been carried aboard in a box along with Hethor's paracoita. (Here's a thought - did Talos use bits of the paracoita to make Jolenta? Jonas's love explained at last!)\n\nJonas might well never have seen Urth before his spaceship crashed there.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-13T22:02:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<791127.1718.qm@web84103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are suites on cruise ships." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 2:01 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nOn board a ship, those \"suites\" would have been called something else:\ncompartments, probably.\n\n\"Suites' are found in office buildings and hotels.\n\n\n--- On *Mon, 12/13/10, Gerry Quinn * wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, December 13, 2010, 11:55 AM\n\n\n\nFrom: \"Adam Thornton\" >" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/12/2010 07:11 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Anyway, I don't want to get into a war over such details. I am\ndefending the theory, but as I said I am not wedded to it. And our\ninterpretations of BotNS do not stand or fall on the question of whether the\nAntechamber was or was not part of Jonas's starship. But I ask again: has\nanyone any better explanation for Jonas's (confirmed) architectural\nobservations and the other things I mentioned?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Architecture?\n\nWell, Jonas was from a time not that far in advance of ours, one in which\nrecognizably Korean names were still familiar.\n\nAnd the room was pretty clearly a large palatial room converted to boring\ndrop-ceiling partitioned office space." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, no. It was several suites joined together." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " One suspects that this has been the fate of many monarchical buildings\nconverted to bureaucratic workplaces as the Type Of Government clanked along\nits chain, in our time. I think it is likely that Jonas, as the\nrepresentative of Near Future [Ea|U]rth is more familiar with Cubeville than\nis Severian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But is Jonas the representative of Near Future Urth? He is a robot built\nto serve on a starship; he may well have been carried aboard in a box along\nwith Hethor's paracoita. (Here's a thought - did Talos use bits of the\nparacoita to make Jolenta? Jonas's love explained at last!)\n\nJonas might well never have seen Urth before his spaceship crashed there.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<562831.32834.qm@web84105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-13T22:23:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that Inire does a strange disappearing act. But he might be on The Ship unbeknownst to Severian, and he might have simply hopped into a mirror. Who knows where he called home.\nAs for there being only one Ship ... that's fine, except that Jonas's ship crashed. I would more readily accept a single Ship that can move between Briah and Yesod.\nIncidentally I recently read a little about the Gor series of pulp novels. I was struck by the fact that apparently there are only 2 spaceships: a silver one that took the protagonist from Earth to Gor (on the other side of the sun, IIRC), and a black one belonging to the enemies of the owners of the silver one. A precedent of sorts?\n\n--- On Mon, 12/13/10, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nFrom: Lee Berman \nSubject: (urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Monday, December 13, 2010, 1:56 PM\n\n\n\nSon o' Witz- I think you meant, \"Just smokin' the stuff\"? :)\n\n \nHah!? :- P!\n \nAntechamber aside, I can't help but feel the discussion of Jonas's ship is missing a major thematic\nconnection. Jonas and Hethor and Father Inire all have a facility with mirrors. All have served on \na spaceship or come from other worlds. Hethor notes he served various roles on his Quasar ship with \ndemon-haunted sails. Severian has a spaceship and fountain in his mausoleum crest. Severian's crowning \nachievement is to take a ship and retrieve the New Sun.\n \nShip, ship, ship. Sure we can postulate that Jonas' ship was some other ship which happened to use mirrors.\nBut I just don't feel that's how Wolfe is working, especially with BotNS. With this story he has constructed\na *Labyrinth*. A closed off \"world\" which does not allow excessive outside introductions to clutter things up. \nInstead every twist turns the story back on itself. Each branch of the path brings one (us and Severian) back \nto familiar scenes with familiar characters. \n \nWolfe is working like Dr. Talos. Instead of recruiting lots of different actors to play the many parts, he finds\nways to disguise his existing actors so they can play multiple parts. A criticism of my Father Inire Theory is \nthat I am finding him everywhere. I think this is not a weakness but rather its supreme strength. In my view \nFather Inire is stunningly, breathtakingly everywhere.\n \nI think Gene Wolfe expected us to be able to (intuitively?) gather the evidence above and conclude that there\nwas only one Ship for Father Inire, for Hethor, for Jonas and for Severian. Nobody was smart enough to do that.\nSo in UotNS he showed us THE Ship (and did not show us any other interstellar ships). He showed us the sails and \ntheir action in close detail. He showed us beings resembling Jonas on this ship. He shows us a sailor who resembles \nHethor on this ship (in the hologram Autarch scene). It is enough for me. I get it, there is no \"perhaps\". In the \nSolar Labyrinth there is only room for One Ship.\n \nWolfe shows us Severian on this ship. He kinda shows us Jonah and Hethor. But someone is missing. Where is\nFather Inire? If he were to be on The Ship, how would we know him? What is his essence? \n \nOn Urth, Inire was a never-seen mysterious figure who might have taken various guises, shapes, sizes and even \nspecies forms to keep tabs on Severian. We have a figure like that on The Ship. On Urth, we have Inire as a\ndemi-urgical ruling power who works both sides of wars and conflicts to achieve his goals. On The Ship (the\ntrip TO Yesod) we have an all-powerful Captain who is never seen but who is somehow unable to control a \nmutiny of jibers; a conflict Severian gets embroiled in. A necessary embroilment as we later find out.\n \nAfter Severian gets on the ship, why has Father Inire not been helping Valeria as Autarch after 1000 years of \ndoing just that? out when Severian got on The Ship? Where did he go? Why did Hethor seem so sincere in his reverence \nand respect for Severian, \"My Master!\" Why did Tzadkiel say he had been an acolyte of Severian's in another past \nuniverse?\n \nFor me the dots are not too far apart and fairly easy to connect. There may be bits of counter-evidence tossed\nhere and there to confuse us. Wolfe always does that. But the big picture is too big and clear for me to ignore.\nFather Inire is everywhere. He is demonic, he is angelic. He is scientific, political and magical. He is gigantic \nand tiny, animal, human, alien, male, and female. Father Inire is master of all opposites. Father Inire is.... ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ? " } ] }, { "message_id": "<900482.63764.qm@web84108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-13T22:29:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "yes ... on Tzadkiel's ship. Jonas's ship crashed.\nI'm sympathetic to Lee's Labyrinth idea, but I'm not about to assume that there is only one starship in Briah.\n\n--- On Mon, 12/13/10, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nSubject: Re: (urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, December 13, 2010, 3:54 PM\n\nOn Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 12:46 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n\n\n---Sure, and you can lean on the railing and smoke those big see-gars on deck. Just like in a spaceship!\n\nActually, you probably could on Tzadkiel's ship... " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<322071.93334.qm@web84102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-13T22:34:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which are floating hotels. Bam!\n\n--- On Mon, 12/13/10, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nSubject: Re: (urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, December 13, 2010, 5:02 PM\n\nThere are suites on cruise ships.\n\nOn Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 2:01 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n\n\nOn board a ship, those \"suites\" would have been called something else: compartments, probably.\n\"Suites' are found in office buildings and hotels.\n\n--- On Mon, 12/13/10, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, December 13, 2010, 11:55 AM\nFrom: \"Adam Thornton\" \nOn 12/12/2010 07:11 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Anyway, I don't want to get into a war over such details. I am defending the theory,\n but as I said I am not wedded to it. And our interpretations of BotNS do not stand or fall on the question of whether the Antechamber was or was not part of Jonas's starship. But I ask again: has anyone any better explanation for Jonas's (confirmed) architectural observations and the other things I mentioned?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Architecture?\n\nWell, Jonas was from a time not that far in advance of ours, one in which recognizably Korean names were still familiar.\n\nAnd the room was pretty clearly a large palatial room converted to boring drop-ceiling partitioned office space." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, no. It was several suites joined together." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "? One suspects that this has been the fate of many monarchical buildings converted to bureaucratic workplaces as the Type Of Government clanked along its chain, in our time. I think it is likely that Jonas, as the representative of Near Future [Ea|U]rth is more" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " familiar with Cubeville than is Severian.\n\nBut is Jonas the representative of Near Future Urth? He is a robot built to serve on a starship; he may well have been carried aboard in a box along with Hethor's paracoita. (Here's a thought - did Talos use bits of the paracoita to make Jolenta? Jonas's love explained at last!)\n\n\nJonas might well never have seen Urth before his spaceship crashed there.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\nUrth Mailing List\n\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\n\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2010-12-13T23:14:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<375611.52378.qm@web114716.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 12 Dec 2010, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: David Duffy \nI always took this as an homage to _The Trial_.\nOn Sun, 12 Dec 2010, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n\nSorry, I haven't read _The Trial_. What's the homage? The architecture \nof the antechamber? The possibility of waiting indefinitely? (Though \nWikip tells me Josef K.'s case was disposed of in a year.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My memory of the book was pretty distant, as I had thought some court \nsupplicant families had waited generations in a waiting room. When I \nlooked over an online copy last night, the analogies were less direct. a) \nPeople (eg the usher and his wife) live in the court anteroom when the \ncourt is not in session -- then they move their furniture out, except for \nthe washtub ;). The court is in the ramshackle attics of a tenement \nbuilding. b) Supplicants are always waiting in a long corridor, even \nwhen the court is not in session. c) When K. opens the door of the junk \nroom at his bank, he finds the _whip man_ punishing the two police who \narrested K., for corruption (one of them ate K.'s breakfast) ; d) The \nstory of the Doorkeeper, where the protagonist waits outside the door of \nthe Law to be let in, for the entire length of his life.\n\nCheers, David Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<95F53444E2D64C8D812AAB2AEF8A6CB4@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-13T23:28:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<33757.83490.qm@web84101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's not just drop ceilings that he recognised - he worked the mirror transporter. How was he familiar with > > that technology? You would at first sight expect it to be wildly futuristic by his standards - but no, he was > > instantly able to operate it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---I don't understand your assumptions. Is transporter technology incompatible with inexpensive-renovation > technology? Is it impossible to build transporters on or under the ground? So maybe they had them on ships. > So what?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What we know is that Jonas knows how to operate them. Now it seems unlikely to me that transporters were ever a commonplace technology, that most people would have been able to operate just as in other times most people could drive a car. So this is perhaps a technology that Jonas learned to use as part of his duties as a crewman on the Fortunate Cloud. But then there must have been a mirror transporter aboard the ship. Surprise... it's right outside the door of the antechamber, or at least not far away (they have to descend a lot of steps... a bit like getting anywhere in the Matachin Tower)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "OTOH, the very idea of a drop ceiling on a spaceship is almost silly. They are filthy because they trap dirt. They > > are meant only to hide pipes and so on. On a spaceship, you can't waste your payload on things like that, and \nyou would organize your functional space more efficiently than to have inaccessible pipes. Think submarines, not > aircraft carriers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree they are a bit questionable on a ship, though by no means impossible. It is interesting that Jonas recognised them and Severian didn't, though (nor did Jonas expect him to). They must be uncommon in the architecture of Severian's day. But they seemed normal to Jonas. \"I'm sure that's what we used to call a drop ceiling.\" So does the architecture of the antechamber derive from Jonas's day? If so, it being Jonas's ship is an obvious possibility.\n\nWhy does Jonas hallucinate about his craft here anyway? Okay, maybe he thinks of it every time he has a nightmare. But maybe, there's something about this place. This place that he *has* to get out of." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Here's the entrance to the transporter room:\n\n We had descended perhaps a hundred steps when we reached a door painted with a crimson teratoid > > sign that appeared to me to be a glyph from some tongue beyond the shores of Urth.\n\nWolfe is spelling it out! Okay, an alternative interpretation is that the symbol is associated with Inire. But if you > > prefer, here's another allusion to starflight. [See, I can play the allusion game too!]\n\n this wing has always been Father Inire's\n\nInire grabs the high tech stuff, natch. A starship is perfect for him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-Meaningless. You can't have stairs and doors with DANGER glyphs underground?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure you can. But wouldn't the DANGER glyph be a standard Urth one? Of course you might expect that too on a spaceship launched from Urth, so it does not make a lot of sense either way. But one reason for it, I suggest, would be simply to make the reader think again that we are not in a normal Urth building, but something from far away. This particular thread is thin, I will admit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The problem with painting a starship interior, which I am surprised no one here sees, is that life support \nsystems would fail if the crew went around renovating the ship. If it didn't fail, the crew eventually would get > \nsick." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't see how you can confidently assert that. Sure, if you tried to bring a conventional painting crew into a > > > ramshackle vessel such as the current International Space Station, it would probably cause a few problems. > > > But we are talking about a much more sophisticated vessel of the future. Possibly decorative materials also > > > > have advanced so that Sick Starship Syndrome is a concern of the past." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---I can confidently assert it because I have no choice but to do so. It's simple physics+medicine. Wolfe is a \nmaterials engineer. He knows about particulate matter. He may not know much about lungs, but he knows about \nrules dictating how much dust factory workers can breathe. Even wood dust is deadly---and highly flammable too. \n\nIf your future super-safe paint is to be admitted as evidence, why does it flake? Why not create pre-fab colored > \npanels?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I really think you are making too much of these limitations on the permissible furnishing of spacecraft which, though far in Urth's past, are far in our future. They have artificial gravity; if they also have good air filtration, dust may not be as much of a problem as you imagine. Think of them as like ships on Earth - you can put anything you want there, within reason.\n\nThey use paint because it looks better. Would you want to sail in a grotty pre-fab starship? And maybe it didn't flake at all during the voyage anyway.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<674918.12539.qm@web114702.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-14T00:58:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Duffy davidD at qimr.edu.au\n\n[/The Trial/]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My memory of the book was pretty distant, as I had thought some court \nsupplicant families had waited generations in a waiting room.\nWhen I looked over an online copy last night, the analogies were less direct. \na) People (eg the usher and his wife) live in the court\nanteroom when the court is not in session -- then they move their furniture \nout, except for the washtub ;). The court is in the ramshackle\nattics of a tenement building. b) Supplicants are always waiting in a long \ncorridor, even when the court is not in session. c) When K.\nopens the door of the junk room at his bank, he finds the _whip man_ punishing \nthe two police who arrested K., for corruption (one of\nthem ate K.'s breakfast) ; d) The story of the Doorkeeper, where the \nprotagonist waits outside the door of the Law to be let in, for the\nentire length of his life." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks. I can see definite similarities. Of course, there's also the \npossibility of young Wolfe sitting in a waiting room and thinking, or saying,\n\"You could spend your life here. I mean, you could have babies and grow old and \ndie here. And then your kids could carry on after you...\"\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<765471.79132.qm@web114705.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-14T01:11:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<95F53444E2D64C8D812AAB2AEF8A6CB4@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn gerryq at indigo.ie \nDavid Stockhoff wrote:\nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's not just drop ceilings that he recognised - he worked the mirror \ntransporter. How was he familiar withthat technology? You\nwould at first sight expect it to be wildly futuristic by his standards - but \nno, he wasinstantly able to operate it. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think we'd expect it to be wildly futuristic. On Urth, we expect \nworking technology to be ancient. I think the transporter\nroom is from Jonas's time but not from his ship.\n\nHow likely does it seem that Jonas was injured in the crash but the mirrors and \ntheir controls survived?\n\nYou suggested that Jonas had learned something by talking with Kim Lee Soong's \ndescendants that went beyond architecture. I think\nit's just that they'd been there for generations, and possibly some time-altered \nstory of how Kim got there in the first place. Jonas\nrealized that \"antechamber\" was literal, and combined that with the \narchitecture to realize the history of the place and the importance\nof not staying there for the rest of his \"life\", which could probably be quite \nlong.\n\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D06D1F0.80207@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-14T02:09:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<95F53444E2D64C8D812AAB2AEF8A6CB4@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like your romantic notion of a starship, Gerry.\n\nI just don't think even \"good\" air filtration is achievable if everyone \non the ship thinks as you do and renovates his \"suite of rooms\" from \ntime to time. It would take very little bad behavior from all hands to \nkill the ship." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/13/2010 6:28 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nI really think you are making too much of these limitations on \nthe permissible furnishing of spacecraft which, though far in Urth's \npast, are far in our future. They have artificial gravity; if they \nalso have good air filtration, dust may not be as much of a problem as \nyou imagine. Think of them as like ships on Earth - you can put \nanything you want there, within reason.\nThey use paint because it looks better. Would you want to sail in a \ngrotty pre-fab starship? And maybe it didn't flake at all during the \nvoyage anyway." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D06D2A9.3060202@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-14T02:12:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D06D1F0.80207@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What if they don't use paint? What if the colors are burned on with \nradiation? What if they apply crystallization?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/13/2010 8:09 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI like your romantic notion of a starship, Gerry.\n\nI just don't think even \"good\" air filtration is achievable if \neveryone on the ship thinks as you do and renovates his \"suite of \nrooms\" from time to time. It would take very little bad behavior from \nall hands to kill the ship.\n\nOn 12/13/2010 6:28 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I really think you are making too much of these limitations on the \npermissible furnishing of spacecraft which, though far in Urth's \npast, are far in our future. They have artificial gravity; if they \nalso have good air filtration, dust may not be as much of a problem \nas you imagine. Think of them as like ships on Earth - you can put \nanything you want there, within reason.\nThey use paint because it looks better. Would you want to sail in a \ngrotty pre-fab starship? And maybe it didn't flake at all during the \nvoyage anyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 101213-1, 12/13/2010\nTested on: 12/13/2010 9:09:53 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-14T02:29:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D06D2A9.3060202@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 13, 2010, at 8:12 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nWhat if they don't use paint? What if the colors are burned on with radiation? What if they apply crystallization?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Vinyl stickers! Or even......\n\nSPAAAAAAAAACE paint.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D06DF7B.2050101@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-14T03:07:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D06D2A9.3060202@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the word \"flaking\" is used. The flaking is the problem---let \nalone the fumes from paint drying in the first place.\n\nHere's the main point: the House Absolute and the antechamber are partly \nbased on the palace of the Sun King at Verseilles, the very pinnacle of \nornamental aristocratic uselessness. Thecla's memory of her youth \nillustrates this uselessness. Imagine our heroes caught there, wandering \namong dusty rooms and secret doors and hidden closets. They pass rich \nchambers and hurrying servants. They go down steps and find a door out \nof our near future with a red symbol warning of monsters.\n\nAt no time does Jonas, who is now \"metal\" Jonas, \"meat\" Jonas having \nbeen stunned, mention ships. When he mentions the ceiling and its \ncompartmentalization, he uses the language of an ancient, long-occupied \nterrestrial palace. At this point they are deep underground.\n\nI really don't understand why this idea is being pursued further." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/13/2010 9:12 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nWhat if they don't use paint? What if the colors are burned on with \nradiation? What if they apply crystallization?\n\nOn 12/13/2010 8:09 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I like your romantic notion of a starship, Gerry.\n\nI just don't think even \"good\" air filtration is achievable if \neveryone on the ship thinks as you do and renovates his \"suite of \nrooms\" from time to time. It would take very little bad behavior from \nall hands to kill the ship.\n\nOn 12/13/2010 6:28 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I really think you are making too much of these limitations on the \npermissible furnishing of spacecraft which, though far in Urth's \npast, are far in our future. They have artificial gravity; if they \nalso have good air filtration, dust may not be as much of a problem \nas you imagine. Think of them as like ships on Earth - you can put \nanything you want there, within reason.\nThey use paint because it looks better. Would you want to sail in a \ngrotty pre-fab starship? And maybe it didn't flake at all during \nthe voyage anyway." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D06DF95.5090500@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-14T03:08:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, it would glow in the dark, of course. ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/13/2010 9:29 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\nOn Dec 13, 2010, at 8:12 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What if they don't use paint? What if the colors are burned on with radiation? What if they apply crystallization?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Vinyl stickers! Or even......\n\nSPAAAAAAAAACE paint.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D06E3C5.4050107@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-14T03:25:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D06DF7B.2050101@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/13/2010 9:07 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nAt no time does Jonas, who is now \"metal\" Jonas, \"meat\" Jonas having \nbeen stunned, mention ships. When he mentions the ceiling and its \ncompartmentalization, he uses the language of an ancient, \nlong-occupied terrestrial palace. At this point they are deep \nunderground. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is true that just because Jonas recognizes a drop-down ceiling, it \ndoesn't mean it is a ship. Presumably, he's seen plenty of drop-down \nceilings under lots of other circumstances. Drop down ceilings are a \nuseful architectural tool in modern buildings.\n\nHere's another argument against it being a ship. Severian _grew up_ in \nan abandoned spaceship. If he never saw a drop-down ceiling, presumably \nthey don't use them.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D06EBB7.6090306@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-14T03:59:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D06E3C5.4050107@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I forgot about that!\n\nNot only that, but Wolfe makes it quite clear, over many chapters, that \nthis is the case, even if the ship part may only be a small part of the \nTower. I believe Severian even refers to ports or portholes. You'd think \na clue like \"compartments\" would be dropped if we were supposed to think \nthe same of the antechamber.\n\nAnything hitting the ground hard enough to bury itself would no longer \nfunction, and the whole idea of the House is that it is entirely \ninvisible from above ground, and presumably from the air as well. It has \nno towers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/13/2010 10:25 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 12/13/2010 9:07 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At no time does Jonas, who is now \"metal\" Jonas, \"meat\" Jonas having \nbeen stunned, mention ships. When he mentions the ceiling and its \ncompartmentalization, he uses the language of an ancient, \nlong-occupied terrestrial palace. At this point they are deep \nunderground. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is true that just because Jonas recognizes a drop-down ceiling, it \ndoesn't mean it is a ship. Presumably, he's seen plenty of drop-down \nceilings under lots of other circumstances. Drop down ceilings are a \nuseful architectural tool in modern buildings.\n\nHere's another argument against it being a ship. Severian _grew up_ in \nan abandoned spaceship. If he never saw a drop-down ceiling, \npresumably they don't use them.\n\nu+16b9\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-14T06:19:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D06EBB7.6090306@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Here's the entrance to the transporter room:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We had descended perhaps a hundred steps when we reached a door painted with a crimson *teratoid* " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "sign that appeared to me to be a glyph from some tongue beyond the shores of Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wolfe is spelling it out! Okay, an alternative interpretation is that the symbol is associated with Inire. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But if you > > prefer, here's another allusion to starflight. [See, I can play the allusion game too!]\nthis wing has always been Father Inire's. Inire grabs the high tech stuff, natch. A starship is perfect for him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-Meaningless. You can't have stairs and doors with DANGER glyphs underground?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nThe word \"teratoid\" does not connote \"DANGER\". It pertains to monsters. The association of mirrors and monsters\nseems unmistakable here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jonas speaks of his childhood on Urth. He says that 'Kim Lee Soong' was a common name in his youth 'in lands now \nlost beneath the waves'. Does he actually speak of his childhood? He was a robot, after all. Still, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I take your point that he seems to have known something of the Urth of his youth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is true that just because Jonas recognizes a drop-down ceiling, it doesn't mean it is a ship." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nJonas is part-robot, part-human. His head is human. Why is it being assumed that all his memories are first and\nforemost robot memories? I would tend to assume the opposite. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0763C8.20808@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-14T12:32:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jonas stopped being a meat man when he was wounded. That has always \nseemed clear to me. Perhaps the personalities went back and forth for a \nbit afterward, and it was indeed the meat man who spoke of drop \nceilings. The Jonas who led Severien to the metal door was a metal man. \nI don't see that it matters much in terms of the shippiness of the \narchitecture.\n\nThe teratoid glyph plainly connotes DANGER: MONSTERS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/14/2010 1:19 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Here's the entrance to the transporter room:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We had descended perhaps a hundred steps when we reached a door painted with a crimson *teratoid*\nsign that appeared to me to be a glyph from some tongue beyond the shores of Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Wolfe is spelling it out! Okay, an alternative interpretation is that the symbol is associated with Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But if you> > prefer, here's another allusion to starflight. [See, I can play the allusion game too!]\nthis wing has always been Father Inire's. Inire grabs the high tech stuff, natch. A starship is perfect for him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-Meaningless. You can't have stairs and doors with DANGER glyphs underground?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The word \"teratoid\" does not connote \"DANGER\". It pertains to monsters. The association of mirrors and monsters\nseems unmistakable here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jonas speaks of his childhood on Urth. He says that 'Kim Lee Soong' was a common name in his youth 'in lands now\nlost beneath the waves'. Does he actually speak of his childhood? He was a robot, after all. Still,\nI take your point that he seems to have known something of the Urth of his youth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is true that just because Jonas recognizes a drop-down ceiling, it doesn't mean it is a ship." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jonas is part-robot, part-human. His head is human. Why is it being assumed that all his memories are first and\nforemost robot memories? I would tend to assume the opposite. \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-14T13:08:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D0763C8.20808@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff- Jonas stopped being a meat man when he was wounded. That has always seemed clear to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nDoesn't sound very Wolfean to me. It would be like Severian stops being Thecla (although that does seem to \nhappen in UotNS for auctorial/authorial purposes (Antonio has taught me the latter is a word). Thecla is a \npartial author of BotNS). Does Silk or Horn ever stop being part of SilkHorn? I dunno. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps the personalities went back and forth for a bit afterward, and it was indeed the meat man who spoke of \ndrop ceilings. The Jonas who led Severien to the metal door was a metal man. I don't see that it matters much \nin terms of the shippiness of the architecture." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nGr. don't have my books with me, but IIRC, the man from whom Jonas got replacement parts was from Urth, a\nground casualty of the crash, not a shipmate. Have to check later." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The teratoid glyph plainly connotes DANGER: MONSTERS" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nPerhaps I should be more clear. It is the \"monster\" part which is important because it connects monsters and\nmirrors, which connects Father Inire to another character.\n \nA DANGER sign seems silly. Would Father Inire really expect wanderers to accidentally happen upon his chambers\nwithout his knowledge and to require a sign so that they would avoid any harm? I think Father Inire's architectural \ndesigns work so that only those who are meant to discover and enter his chambers will discover and enter them.\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D07822B.3020105@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-14T14:41:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 12/14/2010 8:08 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff- Jonas stopped being a meat man when he was wounded. That has always seemed clear to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Doesn't sound very Wolfean to me. It would be like Severian stops being Thecla (although that does seem to\nhappen in UotNS for auctorial/authorial purposes (Antonio has taught me the latter is a word). Thecla is a\npartial author of BotNS). Does Silk or Horn ever stop being part of SilkHorn? I dunno." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It doesn't sound Wolfean for a character to suffer a wound and \nsubsequently experience a different set of memories or personality traits?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Perhaps the personalities went back and forth for a bit afterward, and it was indeed the meat man who spoke of\ndrop ceilings. The Jonas who led Severien to the metal door was a metal man. I don't see that it matters much\nin terms of the shippiness of the architecture." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gr. don't have my books with me, but IIRC, the man from whom Jonas got replacement parts was from Urth, a\nground casualty of the crash, not a shipmate. Have to check later." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, it was. it may have been a country villlager, for all we know. \nRecall that Severian thought Jonas a peasant because of his folksy \nspeech, but that was actually sailor's speech. If his ship did crash \nnear the House, his meat memories could be those of a servant of the \nHouse---perhaps one who knew of the mirrors. I don't see why Metal Jonas \ncould not access Meat Jonas's memories." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The teratoid glyph plainly connotes DANGER: MONSTERS" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps I should be more clear. It is the \"monster\" part which is important because it connects monsters and\nmirrors, which connects Father Inire to another character.\n\nA DANGER sign seems silly. Would Father Inire really expect wanderers to accidentally happen upon his chambers\nwithout his knowledge and to require a sign so that they would avoid any harm? I think Father Inire's architectural\ndesigns work so that only those who are meant to discover and enter his chambers will discover and enter them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course you think that, with no evidence whatsoever. ;)\n\nI take the glyph as a joke, a parody of our \"ionizing radiation\" symbol. \nOur civilization posts those; Inire's posts \"Monsters\" signs. Their \ntechnology is perhaps more blatantly dangerous than ours.\n\nYes, the denotation of the symbol is important: Here Be Monsters. \nBecause monsters can come out of the mirrors.\n\nThe connotation remains DANGER." } ] }, { "message_id": "<04E80E4D-7897-4164-B3BF-D48923E309A8@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-14T14:54:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "<4D07822B.3020105@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 14, 2010, at 6:41 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nYes, the denotation of the symbol is important: Here Be Monsters. Because monsters can come out of the mirrors.\n\nThe connotation remains DANGER." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So, of course I'm trying to figure out what this teratoid symbol LOOKS like.\nI see that it is mostly a medical term for monstrous abnormality and tumours and such., but I don't find associated symbols with an image search.\n\nI own the comic that comes up in the keyword search, Teratoid Heights. It's a lovely gem of mutant monster stream of concious lo fi comix, but it doesn't help me draw the door to this chamber of mirrors. Anyone have a suggestion?\n\n~Witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<294557.29811.qm@smtp818.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2010-12-14T15:14:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "<04E80E4D-7897-4164-B3BF-D48923E309A8@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 14:54 14/12/2010, Son of Witz wrote:\nSo, of course I'm trying to figure out what this teratoid symbol LOOKS like.\nI see that it is mostly a medical term for monstrous abnormality and \ntumours and such., but I don't find associated symbols with an image search." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There was a discussion about this on here a few years ago:\nhttp://lists.urth.net/htdig.cgi/urth-urth.net/2006-July/thread.html#6578\n\nI wondered myself if it might be the biohazard sign; but it seems to \nme there's no clear evidence to support any specific theory.\n\nbest wishes,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-14T15:15:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "<294557.29811.qm@smtp818.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff- I take the glyph as a joke, a parody of our \"ionizing radiation\" symbol. Our civilization \nposts those; Inire's posts \"Monsters\" signs. Their technology is perhaps more blatantly dangerous than ours." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAh! Yes, I've seen this interpretation of the teratoid sign before. Might be something to it. My gut feeling is\nthat it is based on an error though. A \"teratogen\" is an agent which can disrupt fetal development and create\n\"monsters\". Since radiation is one teratogen I can see the how the meaning of \"teratoid\" could become improperly\nassociated with radiation instead of your basic \"monster\".\n \nPerhaps I'm being too literal here and should join in with David on the Wolfean joke. But for me, the glyph is in \nan alien \"language\". Who is it supposed to warn of danger? Barbatus getting lost in the Secret House? \nFor some reason David continues to dance away from what I see as the clear association here: If mirrors connect to \nmonsters then Father Inire connects to Hethor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son o' Witz- So, of course I'm trying to figure out what this teratoid symbol LOOKS like." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHeh, me too. I found one which might satify David's (and others') sense of resembling the radiation symbol and my\nsense of Father Inire's true nature:\n \nhttp://ubuntusatanic.org/wallpapers/SE-666.jpg \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<656396.15104.qm@web84102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-14T16:01:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "<04E80E4D-7897-4164-B3BF-D48923E309A8@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How funny.\nI envision a radially symmetric set of horns, perhaps 3 pairs like the biohazard symbol. In fact, it may even be that symbol Wolfe was thinking of---since monsters from other planets are technically a biohazard, including those that are very very small and get into your bloodstream as well as those that stomp around eating people---but it isn't usually red.\nHowever, see?http://www.hms.harvard.edu/orsp/coms/biosafetyresources/history-of-biohazard-symbol.htm for a red one.\n\n--- On Tue, 12/14/10, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) Father Inire: teratoid\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, December 14, 2010, 9:54 AM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 14, 2010, at 6:41 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nYes, the denotation of the symbol is important: Here Be Monsters. Because monsters can come out of the mirrors.\n\nThe connotation remains DANGER." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So, of course I'm trying to figure out what this teratoid symbol LOOKS like.\nI see that it is mostly a medical term for monstrous abnormality and tumours and such., but I don't find associated symbols with an image search.\n\nI own the comic that comes up in the keyword search, Teratoid Heights. It's a lovely gem of mutant monster stream of concious lo fi comix, but it doesn't help me draw the door to this chamber of mirrors. Anyone have a suggestion?\n\n~Witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<867275.20800.qm@web84102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-14T16:08:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's not far off from my thought, but of course you have to know the numerology to \"get\" it.\nThe meaning of a monster sign could not be more simple: don't come in here unless you want to risk being eaten. House servants appreciated this, I'm sure. Any association with Hethor comes from the fact that mirrors can be used to summon monsters, as Hethor did.\nBut there is always the possibility that in the First Empire people still---perhaps even especially, if birth rates were a problem---cared about causing monstrous births. Who knows what occupational hazards regular use of a mirror might cause.\n--- On Tue, 12/14/10, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Lee Berman \nSubject: (urth) Father Inire: teratoid\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Tuesday, December 14, 2010, 10:15 AM\nDavid Stockhoff- I take the glyph as a joke, a parody of our \"ionizing radiation\" symbol. Our civilization \nposts those; Inire's posts \"Monsters\" signs. Their? technology is perhaps more blatantly dangerous than ours." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAh! Yes, I've seen this interpretation of the teratoid sign before. Might be something to it. My gut feeling is\nthat it is based on an error though. A \"teratogen\" is an agent which can disrupt fetal development and create\n\"monsters\". Since radiation is one teratogen I can see the how the meaning of \"teratoid\" could become improperly\nassociated with radiation instead of your basic \"monster\".\n \nPerhaps I'm being too literal here and should join in with David on the Wolfean joke. But for me, the glyph is in \nan alien \"language\". Who is it supposed to warn of danger? Barbatus getting lost in the Secret House? \nFor some reason David continues to dance away from what I see as the clear association here: If mirrors connect to \nmonsters then Father Inire connects to Hethor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son o' Witz- So, of course I'm trying to figure out what this teratoid symbol LOOKS like." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHeh, me too. I found one which might satify David's (and others') sense of resembling the radiation symbol and my\nsense of Father Inire's true nature:\n \nhttp://ubuntusatanic.org/wallpapers/SE-666.jpg ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ? " } ] }, { "message_id": "<554183.79099.qm@web114717.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-14T17:13:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "<867275.20800.qm@web84102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Lee Berman severiansola at hotmail.com\n\n\n...\nPerhaps I'm being too literal here and should join in with David on the Wolfean \njoke. But for me, the glyph is in \n\nan alien \"language\". Who is it supposed to warn of danger? Barbatus getting lost \nin the Secret House? \n\nFor some reason David continues to dance away from what I see as the clear \nassociation here: If mirrors connect to \n\nmonsters then Father Inire connects to Hethor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Son o' Witz- So, of course I'm trying to figure out what this teratoid symbol \nLOOKS like." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heh, me too. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\nI'd never noticed the irony that when Severian tells us the appearance of the \nglyph but doesn't know its meaning, and when we wonder what\nthe glyph looks like exactly, \"We are like children who look at print and see a \nserpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.\"\n\nMy theory is that it's the word in Father Inire's native language for \n\"mirrors\". ?As people are saying, since the mirrors can call monsters, it's\nappropriate that whatever is written there looks monster-like to Severian.\n\n(Sorry if this message is messed up. Yahoo seems to be misbehaving.)\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-14T17:18:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "<294557.29811.qm@smtp818.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 14, 2010, at 7:14 AM, Mo Holkar wrote:\nAt 14:54 14/12/2010, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So, of course I'm trying to figure out what this teratoid symbol LOOKS like.\nI see that it is mostly a medical term for monstrous abnormality and tumours and such., but I don't find associated symbols with an image search." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There was a discussion about this on here a few years ago:\nhttp://lists.urth.net/htdig.cgi/urth-urth.net/2006-July/thread.html#6578\n\nI wondered myself if it might be the biohazard sign; but it seems to me there's no clear evidence to support any specific theory.\n\nbest wishes,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ \n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for that thread link, Mo.\nThe biohazard symbol DOES look monstrous, I'll agree.\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<927D1156-6558-4B33-A68C-550AC831469A@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-14T17:21:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "<656396.15104.qm@web84102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks. I like that idea of something simliar to the biohazard sign, but different enough that we don't look at it and see 20th century. Thanks for the article link. I like how the designer looks for it everywhere he goes.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 14, 2010, at 8:01 AM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nHow funny.\n\nI envision a radially symmetric set of horns, perhaps 3 pairs like the biohazard symbol. In fact, it may even be that symbol Wolfe was thinking of---since monsters from other planets are technically a biohazard, including those that are very very small and get into your bloodstream as well as those that stomp around eating people---but it isn't usually red.\n\nHowever, see http://www.hms.harvard.edu/orsp/coms/biosafetyresources/history-of-biohazard-symbol.htm for a red one.\n\n--- On Tue, 12/14/10, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) Father Inire: teratoid\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, December 14, 2010, 9:54 AM\n\n\nOn Dec 14, 2010, at 6:41 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, the denotation of the symbol is important: Here Be Monsters. Because monsters can come out of the mirrors.\n\nThe connotation remains DANGER." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, of course I'm trying to figure out what this teratoid symbol LOOKS like.\nI see that it is mostly a medical term for monstrous abnormality and tumours and such., but I don't find associated symbols with an image search.\n\nI own the comic that comes up in the keyword search, Teratoid Heights. It's a lovely gem of mutant monster stream of concious lo fi comix, but it doesn't help me draw the door to this chamber of mirrors. Anyone have a suggestion?\n\n~Witz\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<436711.74539.qm@web84104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-14T17:47:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "<294557.29811.qm@smtp818.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks Mo\nSomeone suggested that the glyph is a Chinese character. That's plausible, if possibly racist given the \"monstrous\" connotation. Chinese calligraphy and type sometimes uses red, and the script can seem angry and horned, perhaps a bit demonic to the nonreader. (Lovecraft probably imagined Arabic, Chinese, and other scripts in a similar way when he wrote of books of nameless horror, which is perhaps a point in the theory's favor.)?\nBut because of the connection is potentially Korean, not Chinese, unfortunately I have to point out that Korean uses Chinese characters even less than Japanese does. We can imagine the glyph as Korean calligraphy, but then who would use calligraphy on an underground door to a transporter room?\nI think the answer is in the word \"teratoid.\" Teratoid means monster-like---in other words, RESEMBLING “A MONSTER.\nWhat could this be but a\"universal\" symbol denoting the presence of monsters and connoting danger” Three pairs of horns and three sets of tentacles would do the trick for most people.\n--- On Tue, 12/14/10, Mo Holkar wrote:\n\nFrom: Mo Holkar \nSubject: Re: (urth) Father Inire: teratoid\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, December 14, 2010, 10:14 AM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 14:54 14/12/2010, Son of Witz wrote:\nSo, of course I'm trying to figure out what this teratoid symbol LOOKS like.\nI see that it is mostly a medical term for monstrous abnormality and tumours and such., but I don't find associated symbols with an image search." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There was a discussion about this on here a few years ago:\nhttp://lists.urth.net/htdig.cgi/urth-urth.net/2006-July/thread.html#6578\n\nI wondered myself if it might be the biohazard sign; but it seems to me there's no clear evidence to support any specific theory.\n\nbest wishes,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<400747.63611.qm@web84101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-14T17:49:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "<554183.79099.qm@web114717.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Plausible.\nHas anyone else thought that the word Wolfe is thinking of when Severian writes about the serpent and sword (some strong allusion right there) \"----st\" is the word \"Christ\"?\n\n--- On Tue, 12/14/10, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n\nFrom: Jerry Friedman \nSubject: Re: (urth) Father Inire: teratoid\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, December 14, 2010, 12:13 PM\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nFrom: Lee Berman severiansola at hotmail.com\n\n\n...\nPerhaps I'm being too literal here and should join in with David on the Wolfean joke. But for me, the glyph is in \nan alien \"language\". Who is it supposed to warn of danger? Barbatus getting lost in the Secret House? \nFor some reason David continues to dance away from what I see as the clear association here: If mirrors connect to \nmonsters then Father Inire connects to Hethor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son o' Witz- So, of course I'm trying to figure out what this teratoid symbol LOOKS like." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh, me too.\n...\nI'd never noticed the irony that when Severian tells us the appearance of the glyph but doesn't know its meaning, and when we wonder what\nthe glyph looks like exactly, \"We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.\"\n\nMy theory is that it's the word in Father Inire's native language for \"mirrors\". ?As people are saying, since the mirrors can call monsters, it's\nappropriate that whatever is written there looks monster-like to Severian.\n\n(Sorry if this message is messed up. Yahoo seems to be misbehaving.)\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n \n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<722190.83461.qm@web84104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-14T17:54:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "<927D1156-6558-4B33-A68C-550AC831469A@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I hadn't actually read the page. Funny---something about symbols creating reality comes to mind.\n\n--- On Tue, 12/14/10, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) Father Inire: teratoid\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, December 14, 2010, 12:21 PM\n\nThanks. I like that idea of something simliar to the biohazard sign, but different enough that we don't look at it and see 20th century. Thanks for the article link. I like how the designer looks for it everywhere he goes.~witz\nOn Dec 14, 2010, at 8:01 AM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n\nHow funny.\nI envision a radially symmetric set of horns, perhaps 3 pairs like the biohazard symbol. In fact, it may even be that symbol Wolfe was thinking of---since monsters from other planets are technically a biohazard, including those that are very very small and get into your bloodstream as well as those that stomp around eating people---but it isn't usually red.\nHowever, see?http://www.hms.harvard.edu/orsp/coms/biosafetyresources/history-of-biohazard-symbol.htm for a red one.\n\n--- On Tue, 12/14/10, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) Father Inire: teratoid\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\"\n \nDate: Tuesday, December 14, 2010, 9:54 AM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 14, 2010, at 6:41 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nYes, the denotation of the symbol is important: Here Be Monsters. Because monsters can come out of the mirrors.\n\nThe connotation remains DANGER." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So, of course I'm trying to figure out what this teratoid symbol LOOKS like.\nI see that it is mostly a medical term for monstrous abnormality and tumours and such., but I don't find associated symbols with an image search.\n\nI own the comic that comes up in the keyword search, Teratoid Heights. It's a lovely gem of mutant monster stream of concious lo fi comix, but it doesn't help me draw the door to this chamber of mirrors. Anyone have a\n suggestion?\n\n~Witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-14T18:03:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "<722190.83461.qm@web84104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff- I think the answer is in the word \"teratoid.\" Teratoid means monster-like---\nin other words, RESEMBLING A >MONSTER. What could this be but a\"universal\" symbol denoting the \npresence of monsters and connoting danger? Three pairs of horns >and three sets of tentacles would \ndo the trick for most people." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI'm okay with that. But here's the thing..the only thing we see coming out of those particular mirrors \nis the silver fish-thing in the Domnina story (though I think Inire says there could be more creatures \nto come if given more time). Borski has suggested the fish is a \"potent Christian symbol\" or\nsomething like that.\n \nOur only other BotNS view of such mirrors is the old Autarch's book, in which we see an island-sized \nversion of angelic Tzadkiel. How can these two mirror creatures be reconciled with the monster association?\n \n \nI'll toss out what I think is another related phenomenon. On Tzadkiel's ship we are told the apports\nare creatures which have been inadvertantly transported by juxaposition of the ship's mirror sails.\nWe get as crazy a collection of aliens as we'll ever see in a WOlfe book. But, we are told, sometimes the\napports are people, though (from an angelic point of view?) people can be categorized as monsters from\na higher being's perception, or something like that. Apheta explicitly defines Severian as a monster.\n \nHow can we encompass all these mirror views with meaningful understanding? Any thoughts? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<469392.98371.qm@web84101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-14T19:02:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's an interesting point. Inire calls forth only fish and angels. Which makes him seem not so satanic to me. What do you think?\nBut Hethor calls forth true monsters, and we are told they are conjured from mirrors.\nAs for your last point about apports---they are monsters too, as a category. Yes, some may be sentient, or even human---who knows? Perhaps the worst monster to emerge from a mirror is the one we see there?\n\n--- On Tue, 12/14/10, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Lee Berman \nSubject: (urth) Father Inire: teratoid\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Tuesday, December 14, 2010, 1:03 PM\nDavid Stockhoff-? I think the answer is in the word \"teratoid.\" Teratoid means monster-like---\nin other words, RESEMBLING? A >MONSTER. What could this be but a\"universal\" symbol denoting the \npresence of monsters and connoting danger? Three pairs of horns >and three sets of tentacles would \ndo the trick for most people." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI'm okay with that. But here's the thing..the only thing we see coming out of those particular mirrors \nis the? silver fish-thing in the Domnina story (though I think Inire says there could be more creatures \nto come if given more time). Borski has suggested the fish is a \"potent Christian symbol\" or\nsomething like that.\n \nOur only other BotNS view of such mirrors is the old Autarch's book, in which we see an island-sized \nversion of angelic Tzadkiel. How can these two mirror creatures be reconciled with the monster association?\n \n \nI'll toss out what I think is another related phenomenon. On Tzadkiel's ship we are told the apports\nare creatures which have been inadvertantly transported by juxaposition of the ship's mirror sails.\nWe get as crazy a collection of aliens as we'll ever see in a WOlfe book. But, we are told, sometimes the\napports are people, though (from an angelic point of view?) people can be categorized as monsters from\na higher being's perception, or something like that. Apheta explicitly defines Severian as a monster.\n \nHow can we encompass all these mirror views with meaningful understanding? Any thoughts? ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ? " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflatourth at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-14T19:29:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "<400747.63611.qm@web84101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Uh...i always thought the word was \"last\"...because that word ends the\nriddle and so completes it nicely.\n\nOn Dec 14, 2010 9:50 AM, \"DAVID STOCKHOFF\" wrote:\n\nPlausible.\n\nHas anyone else thought that the word Wolfe is thinking of when Severian\nwrites about the serpent and sword (some strong allusion right there)\n\"----st\" is the word \"Christ\"?\n\n--- On *Tue, 12/14/10, Jerry Friedman * wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jerry Friedman \nSubject: Re: (urth) Father Inire: teratoid\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, December 14, 2010, 12:13 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Lee Berman severiansola at hotmail.com\n\n...\nPerhaps I'm being too lit..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth...." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D07C847.5070100@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-14T19:40:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Beast fits." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/14/2010 1:29 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:\n\nUh...i always thought the word was \"last\"...because that word ends the \nriddle and so completes it nicely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Dec 14, 2010 9:50 AM, \"DAVID STOCKHOFF\" > wrote:\n\nHas anyone else thought that the word Wolfe is thinking of when \nSeverian writes about the serpent and sword (some strong allusion \nright there) \"----st\" is the word \"Christ\"?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-14T20:15:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "<4D07C847.5070100@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff- That's an interesting point. Inire calls forth only fish and angels. Which makes him \nseem not so satanic to me. What do you think? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But Hethor calls forth true monsters, and we are told they are conjured from mirrors.\nAs for your last point about apports---they are monsters too, as a category." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWell, I have some thoughts but they are difficult to put into words. I have been trying with my Father\nInire theory.\n \nFor me, this is a gnostic, pre-Christian universe (some prefer it to be a futuristic post-Christian era of \nour own universe; I dunno).\n \nAs such, a nasty Urth is ruled by an essentially evil, materialistic demiurge who has created and who controls\neverything. (some pagans posit that this demiurge was Jahweh, the genocidal, jealous god of the Old Testament.)\nThis demiurge controls everything with various agents in various shapes and forms from the noble Ultan to the\ndemonic Hethor. But all are aspects of the demiurge. Important to notice that his mirrors produce heavenly images, \nproving that he isn't really all bad. The central avatar of this being in our story is, of course, Father Inire.\n \nConversely, gnostic heaven is ruled by an essentially good, spiritual archangel, Tzadkiel who mostly stays above the \nfray (obeying the Prime Directive, heh) but not entirely. Both Yesod and The Ship (while travelling) exist outside \nUrth and the material universe and so may be considered as spiritual realms. Important to notice that mirror sails \non the ship produce monsters leading to bloody, deadly conflict on the Ship and Yesod, proving that the heavenly \narchangel isn't really all good. (Hethor's mirrors produce monsters because they are sail scraps). \n \nTogether, Urth and The Ship/Yesod, Inire and Tzadkiel essentially form a gnostic Yin Yang symbol, dark balancing \nlight with a mirror image dot of the opposite embedded on each side.\n \nI agree with Jeff that Father Inire disappears from the story because his work on Urth is done. But I can't go with\nthe idea that he just dies and is gone. For me he is replaced in the story by his similar but opposite counterpart, \nTzadkiel. They, like Dionysus/Great God Pan, are opposites but aspects of the same essential thing or being or greater \ngod who is divided.\n \nI'm not so good at religious, especially Christian, philosophy. But I get the impression Gene Wolfe believes in the\nreality of the polytheistic pagan gods and the gnostic pre-Christ world of angels and demons. A universe ruled by a \ndivided god. This is our BotNS story.\n \nI get the impression Wolfe feels we on Earth are lucky enough to have gotten Christ, so not only is there forgiveness \nof our sins, a reconcilliation between God and man, but also a joining of the various opposite aspects of gods from \nour gnostic past. They have been reconciled into one true, unified God. (that never quite happens in Briah or on \nUshas). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<173739.78482.qm@web84104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-14T20:18:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "ha! Right in front of me.\nProof that you must avoid over-thinking when reading Wolfe.\n\n--- On Tue, 12/14/10, Jordon Flato wrote:\n\nFrom: Jordon Flato \nSubject: Re: (urth) Father Inire: teratoid\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, December 14, 2010, 2:29 PM\n\nUh...i always thought the word was \"last\"...because that word ends the riddle and so completes it nicely.\nOn Dec 14, 2010 9:50 AM, \"DAVID STOCKHOFF\" wrote:\n\n\nPlausible.\nHas anyone else thought that the word Wolfe is thinking of when Severian writes about the serpent and sword (some strong allusion right there) \"----st\" is the word \"Christ\"?\n\n\n--- On Tue, 12/14/10, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jerry Friedman \nSubject: Re: (urth) Father Inire: teratoid\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, December 14, 2010, 12:13 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Lee Berman severiansola at hotmail.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...\nPerhaps I'm being too lit...-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To post, write urth at urth...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Urth Mailing List\n\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\n\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<825310.72474.qm@web84103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-14T20:22:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a good analysis of the mirror metaphor. Yes, as the moon reflects the sun, so too the minor gods reflect the Increate. Well done.\nAnd of course the scraps (glimpses of knowledge without understanding?) result in horrors the way Sauron's messing with elves yielded orcs.\n\n--- On Tue, 12/14/10, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nFrom: Lee Berman \nSubject: (urth) Father Inire: teratoid\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Tuesday, December 14, 2010, 3:15 PM\n\n\n\nAs such, a nasty Urth is ruled by an essentially evil, materialistic demiurge who has created and who controls\neverything. (some pagans posit that this demiurge was Jahweh, the genocidal, jealous god of the Old Testament.)\nThis demiurge controls everything with various agents in various shapes and forms from the noble Ultan to the\ndemonic Hethor. But all are aspects of the demiurge. Important to notice that his mirrors produce heavenly images,\nproving that he isn't really all bad. The central avatar of this being in our story is, of course, Father Inire.\n\nConversely, gnostic heaven is ruled by an essentially good, spiritual archangel, Tzadkiel who mostly stays above the?\nfray (obeying the Prime Directive, heh) but not entirely. Both Yesod and The Ship (while travelling) exist outside?\nUrth and the material universe and so may be considered as spiritual realms. Important to notice that mirror sails?\non the ship produce monsters leading to bloody, deadly conflict on the Ship and Yesod, proving that the heavenly?\narchangel isn't really all good. ??(Hethor's mirrors produce monsters because they are sail scraps)." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-14T23:33:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not so good at religious, especially Christian, philosophy. But I get\nthe impression Gene Wolfe believes in the\nreality of the polytheistic pagan gods and the gnostic pre-Christ world of\nangels and demons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I get the impression Wolfe feels we on Earth are lucky enough to have\ngotten Christ," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "These are both attested to by Wolfe in interviews, so your impressions are\ncorrect." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "so not only is there forgiveness\nof our sins, a reconcilliation between God and man, but also a joining of\nthe various opposite aspects of gods from\nour gnostic past. They have been reconciled into one true, unified God.\n(that never quite happens in Briah or on\nUshas)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is a possibility that the Green Man is meant to suggest this happens\nin the distant future of Ushas. If his people are fed internally by their\nsymbiotic algae and no longer must rely on the yearly success of crops or\ncatch, they no longer must sacrifice to the four gods, and may live\ndirectly from the light of the Sun, with likewise no intercessors between\nthemselves and God." } ] }, { "message_id": "<9CBE8DE0-7D64-4A1F-A774-735E17B02DA1@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-14T23:52:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "<173739.78482.qm@web84104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. The sentance ends with \"last\"\nI think this story Definitely gets overthought and under-felt.\nSorry, that's a terrible way to put it. I think the essence is often lost when we worry so much over these extended possibilities. \n\nDid anyone even notice my recent verticality metaphor? (Foes of the Increate) I don't think anyone has laid that out before, yet it is right there under your nose and doesn't require assembling elusive fragments of perceived clues, and frankly seems to be a huge symbolic reality that the plot is stretched tautly over. It surprises me that these things remain hidden while we elaborate on whether or not the House Absolute is a crashed ship. It is an interesting exercise but it doesn't really get us any closer to the essence of the work. (which isn't to say good stuff can't come of such thinking. I'm still reeling over the idea that Latro is a werewolf.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 14, 2010, at 12:18 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nha! Right in front of me. \n\nProof that you must avoid over-thinking when reading Wolfe.\n\n--- On Tue, 12/14/10, Jordon Flato wrote:\n\nFrom: Jordon Flato \nSubject: Re: (urth) Father Inire: teratoid\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, December 14, 2010, 2:29 PM\n\nUh...i always thought the word was \"last\"...because that word ends the riddle and so completes it nicely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Dec 14, 2010 9:50 AM, \"DAVID STOCKHOFF\" wrote:\n\nPlausible. \n\nHas anyone else thought that the word Wolfe is thinking of when Severian writes about the serpent and sword (some strong allusion right there) \"----st\" is the word \"Christ\"?\n\n--- On Tue, 12/14/10, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n\nFrom: Jerry Friedman \nSubject: Re: (urth) Father Inire: teratoid\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, December 14, 2010, 12:13 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "From: Lee Berman severiansola at hotmail.com\n\n...\nPerhaps I'm being too lit..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<716269CE-C5CB-47F0-B8D6-392248DCFBB4@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-15T00:21:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Dec 14, 2010, at 3:33 PM, \"Jeff Wilson\" wrote:\nI'm not so good at religious, especially Christian, philosophy. But I get\nthe impression Gene Wolfe believes in the\nreality of the polytheistic pagan gods and the gnostic pre-Christ world of\nangels and demons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I get the impression Wolfe feels we on Earth are lucky enough to have\ngotten Christ," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "These are both attested to by Wolfe in interviews, so your impressions are\ncorrect." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "so not only is there forgiveness\nof our sins, a reconcilliation between God and man, but also a joining of\nthe various opposite aspects of gods from\nour gnostic past. They have been reconciled into one true, unified God.\n(that never quite happens in Briah or on\nUshas)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is a possibility that the Green Man is meant to suggest this happens\nin the distant future of Ushas. If his people are fed internally by their\nsymbiotic algae and no longer must rely on the yearly success of crops or\ncatch, they no longer must sacrifice to the four gods, and may live\ndirectly from the light of the Sun, with likewise no intercessors between\nthemselves and God." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I agree that is is essentially what The Green Man symbolizes. He says nearly as much quite plainly. They are a humanity of non-torturers." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D084908.7050302@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-15T04:50:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D07822B.3020105@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/14/2010 8:41 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n\nOn 12/14/2010 8:08 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gr. don't have my books with me, but IIRC, the man from whom Jonas got\nreplacement parts was from Urth, a\nground casualty of the crash, not a shipmate. Have to check later." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, it was. it may have been a country villlager, for all we know.\nRecall that Severian thought Jonas a peasant because of his folksy\nspeech, but that was actually sailor's speech. If his ship did crash\nnear the House, his meat memories could be those of a servant of the\nHouse---perhaps one who knew of the mirrors. I don't see why Metal Jonas\ncould not access Meat Jonas's memories." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sidero could not access Sev's memories despite his adverse pccupation \nwhen it would have been very useful to do so, so there's no precedent \nfor the suit-robots to have mind-reading or memory-probing capacity. \nThey do seem to have certain neural or electrical induction abilities to \nallow \"silent\" communication with the occupant.\n\nRobo-Jonas' fragmentary memories may be due to 1) lingering crash damage \nand 2) exceeding his original mission capabilities - no one expected a \nship's bot to need the capacity to accumulate very large amounts of \ngeographical information without access to upgrades or at least proper \nmaintenance." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D084BA4.1020200@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-15T05:01:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "<04E80E4D-7897-4164-B3BF-D48923E309A8@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/14/2010 8:54 AM, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nOn Dec 14, 2010, at 6:41 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, the denotation of the symbol is important: Here Be Monsters. Because monsters can come out of the mirrors.\n\nThe connotation remains DANGER." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, of course I'm trying to figure out what this teratoid symbol LOOKS like.\nI see that it is mostly a medical term for monstrous abnormality and tumours and such., but I don't find associated symbols with an image search.\n\nI own the comic that comes up in the keyword search, Teratoid Heights. It's a lovely gem of mutant monster stream of concious lo fi comix, but it doesn't help me draw the door to this chamber of mirrors. Anyone have a suggestion?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The two-headed silhouette is about the most basic monster symbol. It \ncovers notional multi-headed creatures as well as the most common and \nlurid visibly \"monstrous\" birth defects in humans an animals, multiple \nor split body parts due to mutation, replicaiton errors, cell division \nproblems, and recessives like harelip and hyposeal.\n\n From a more modern, brand-recognition standpoint, you might want to \nput pointy bits on the facing head surfaces so it's not mistaken for \nJanus or Lucifer or our Typhon." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-15T07:53:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "<4D084BA4.1020200@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 14, 2010, at 9:01 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 12/14/2010 8:54 AM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Dec 14, 2010, at 6:41 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yes, the denotation of the symbol is important: Here Be Monsters. Because monsters can come out of the mirrors.\n\nThe connotation remains DANGER." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So, of course I'm trying to figure out what this teratoid symbol LOOKS like.\nI see that it is mostly a medical term for monstrous abnormality and tumours and such., but I don't find associated symbols with an image search.\n\nI own the comic that comes up in the keyword search, Teratoid Heights. It's a lovely gem of mutant monster stream of concious lo fi comix, but it doesn't help me draw the door to this chamber of mirrors. Anyone have a suggestion?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The two-headed silhouette is about the most basic monster symbol. It covers notional multi-headed creatures as well as the most common and lurid visibly \"monstrous\" birth defects in humans an animals, multiple or split body parts due to mutation, replicaiton errors, cell division problems, and recessives like harelip and hyposeal.\n\nFrom a more modern, brand-recognition standpoint, you might want to put pointy bits on the facing head surfaces so it's not mistaken for Janus or Lucifer or our Typhon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had a similar thought about a two headed symbol, but I figured in this context it would only read Typhon." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D088002.4060901@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-15T08:44:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/15/2010 1:53 AM, Son of Witz wrote:\nOn Dec 14, 2010, at 9:01 PM, Jeff Wilson " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0882C6.60707@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-15T08:56:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "<436711.74539.qm@web84104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/14/2010 11:47 AM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nWhat could this be but a\"universal\" symbol denoting the presence of\nmonsters and connoting danger? Three pairs of horns and three sets of\ntentacles would do the trick for most people." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Dude, they have multiple racks of beef and calmari in here!\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D08B110.1060608@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-15T12:14:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D084908.7050302@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But Jonas isn't a suit, is he? He's Frank Stockton's Tin Man." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/14/2010 11:50 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 12/14/2010 8:41 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/14/2010 8:08 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gr. don't have my books with me, but IIRC, the man from whom Jonas got\nreplacement parts was from Urth, a\nground casualty of the crash, not a shipmate. Have to check later." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, it was. it may have been a country villlager, for all we know.\nRecall that Severian thought Jonas a peasant because of his folksy\nspeech, but that was actually sailor's speech. If his ship did crash\nnear the House, his meat memories could be those of a servant of the\nHouse---perhaps one who knew of the mirrors. I don't see why Metal Jonas\ncould not access Meat Jonas's memories." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sidero could not access Sev's memories despite his adverse pccupation \nwhen it would have been very useful to do so, so there's no precedent \nfor the suit-robots to have mind-reading or memory-probing capacity. \nThey do seem to have certain neural or electrical induction abilities \nto allow \"silent\" communication with the occupant.\n\nRobo-Jonas' fragmentary memories may be due to 1) lingering crash \ndamage and 2) exceeding his original mission capabilities - no one \nexpected a ship's bot to need the capacity to accumulate very large \namounts of geographical information without access to upgrades or at \nleast proper maintenance." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D08B146.9020709@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-15T12:15:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "<4D084BA4.1020200@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True. Of course, it's also one of the most ancient symbols of \nroyalty---at least in the case of eagles." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/15/2010 12:01 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 12/14/2010 8:54 AM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Dec 14, 2010, at 6:41 AM, David Stockhoff \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yes, the denotation of the symbol is important: Here Be Monsters. \nBecause monsters can come out of the mirrors.\n\nThe connotation remains DANGER." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So, of course I'm trying to figure out what this teratoid symbol \nLOOKS like.\nI see that it is mostly a medical term for monstrous abnormality and \ntumours and such., but I don't find associated symbols with an image \nsearch.\n\nI own the comic that comes up in the keyword search, Teratoid \nHeights. It's a lovely gem of mutant monster stream of concious lo fi \ncomix, but it doesn't help me draw the door to this chamber of \nmirrors. Anyone have a suggestion?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The two-headed silhouette is about the most basic monster symbol. It \ncovers notional multi-headed creatures as well as the most common and \nlurid visibly \"monstrous\" birth defects in humans an animals, multiple \nor split body parts due to mutation, replicaiton errors, cell division \nproblems, and recessives like harelip and hyposeal.\n\nFrom a more modern, brand-recognition standpoint, you might want to \nput pointy bits on the facing head surfaces so it's not mistaken for \nJanus or Lucifer or our Typhon." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D08B1C2.40402@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-15T12:17:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "<4D0882C6.60707@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's the Larder of the Autarch!\n\nMaybe some teeth too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/15/2010 3:56 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 12/14/2010 11:47 AM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What could this be but a\"universal\" symbol denoting the presence of\nmonsters and connoting danger? Three pairs of horns and three sets of\ntentacles would do the trick for most people." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Dude, they have multiple racks of beef and calmari in here!\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D08D27F.7000005@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-15T14:36:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D08B110.1060608@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm guessing you meant L. Frank Baum's tin (woods)man.\nAlthough, Frank R. Stockton's fantasy stories hit the same willing \nsynapses as Baum." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/15/2010 6:14 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nBut Jonas isn't a suit, is he? He's Frank Stockton's Tin Man." } ] }, { "message_id": "<65383.48929.qm@web84104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-15T15:15:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D08D27F.7000005@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "yes, Baum, sorry. Typing in a rush!\n\n--- On Wed, 12/15/10, James Wynn wrote:\n\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, December 15, 2010, 9:36 AM\n\nI'm guessing you meant L. Frank Baum's tin (woods)man.\nAlthough, Frank R. Stockton's fantasy stories hit the same willing \nsynapses as Baum." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/15/2010 6:14 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nBut Jonas isn't a suit, is he? He's Frank Stockton's Tin Man." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D08DDCF.8000409@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-15T15:25:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D08B110.1060608@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/15/2010 6:14 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nBut Jonas isn't a suit, is he? He's Frank Stockton's Tin Man." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sev says he's much lighter than a human of his size, and the only other \nfull-speed robots we see (Sidero, Ossipago) are hollow as well, so \npresumably it's a popular design. In his encountered state, he has a \nmostly-flesh head, arm, and presumably enough of a torso to support \nconversion of food, water, and air. If he lacks fleshy legs, he could \nhave some ballast in the room for them to allow him something like \nnormal balance.\n\nWhat is interesting is that the crew had enough medical supplies and a \nlack of mechanical supplies such that they used medical intervention to \nsave (and possibly prune three limbs of) a braindead man in order to \nreplace the vision and one arm of an android. Presumably they needed an \nable body with a trained mind very badly for some kind of Hail Mary plan.\n\nThen there is the question of Jonas' fleshy vs mechanical age. Why \ndoesn't he look older than dirt, if he has been walking around for \nsix-seven generations?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D08DE28.7080007@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-15T15:26:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "<4D08B146.9020709@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/15/2010 6:15 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nTrue. Of course, it's also one of the most ancient symbols of\nroyalty---at least in the case of eagles." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "right, that's why I went with a man with two heads - just as monstrous \nas king Gidorah, but without the heraldic baggage." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-15T17:27:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "<4D06DF7B.2050101@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"David Stockhoff\" \nHere's the main point: the House Absolute and the antechamber are partly \nbased on the palace of the Sun King at Verseilles, the very pinnacle of \nornamental aristocratic uselessness. Thecla's memory of her youth \nillustrates this uselessness. Imagine our heroes caught there, wandering \namong dusty rooms and secret doors and hidden closets. They pass rich \nchambers and hurrying servants. They go down steps and find a door out of \nour near future with a red symbol warning of monsters." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There may be some resemblances to Versailles, particularly in that the House \nAbsolute was intended as a seat of government away from the capital, and \nthat it grew slowly over a long period with many changes and alterations. \nThere are some differences too; the House Absolute is built underground, it \ncontains a secret second house, and it appears toi extend all the way to \nNessus. Its usefulness or otherwise is neither here nor there, I think.\n\nI don't see why any of this would prevent the incorporation of a repurposed \nstarship if one was to hand. We know that such repurposing of spacecraft is \ndone elsewhere in the Commonwealth. Also, when making mental images of the \nplace based on Severian's descriptions, it may be worth remembering that \nunlike us he grew up in such a repurposed spacecraft." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At no time does Jonas, who is now \"metal\" Jonas, \"meat\" Jonas having been \nstunned, mention ships. When he mentions the ceiling and its \ncompartmentalization, he uses the language of an ancient, long-occupied \nterrestrial palace. At this point they are deep underground." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He dreams about his spaceship while he is there. (So does Severian!) I \ndon't see anything in his language that refers specifically to terrestrial \nstructure. He says \"we used to call that a drop ceiling\". Maybe he meant \n\"when we were visiting palaces on Urth\" or maybe he meant \"in my job as a \nspaceman\" - he doesn't elaborate on which.\n\nAs for being underground, maybe the parts of the House Absolute were \nexcavated, or maybe they were built and covered over. If one part was built \naround a crashed interstellar ship (as Versailles itself accreted around a \nhuntiung lodge) it might even have started off in a crater, making the \nworkmens' task easier!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I really don't understand why this idea is being pursued further." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You and others have pointed out certain difficulties with the conception; I \nwould say they are all perfectly answerable with a little imagination. It's \nequally true that the clues I have suggested lead in this direction clearly \nseem quite unconvincing to some, although many have attempted to find their \nway through Wolfe's labyrinths by following threads that seem even finer!\n\nI still find the idea quite interesting and by no means too implausible to \ndiscount. However, I will leave it at, unless I find some huge hitherto \nunnoticed lead. In any case, unless one starts spinning fanciful secret \nhistories, it seems to have no huge import for the story one way or the \nother - it just slightly modifies our impressions of Urth.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<46378429D4804E0FB49B2EB4142F2F1A@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-15T17:43:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "<04E80E4D-7897-4164-B3BF-D48923E309A8@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Son of Witz\" \nSo, of course I'm trying to figure out what this teratoid symbol LOOKS \nlike.\nI see that it is mostly a medical term for monstrous abnormality and \ntumours and such., but I don't find associated symbols with an image \nsearch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I envisage a sort of red octopussy symbol, with rotational symmetry.\n\nNote that the symbol appears on each mirror also:\n\n----------------------\nI was delighted to hear his voice, and largely in the hope that he would \nspeak again, I asked, \"Where are we, then?\"\n\"On Urth,\" he answered, and strode across the room to the folded panels. \nTheir backs were set with clustered diamonds, as I now saw, and enameled \nwith such twisted signs as had been on the door.\n\n-----------------------\n\nIt may just be alienese for 'quantum reflector' or whatever the proper term \nfor the mirrors is.\n\nThat the sign seems teratoid to Severian may not reflect its true meaning, \neven if it is intended as a hint to the reader that monsters can lurk in \nmirrors. Then again he associates the symbol with cacogens, whom he thinks \nof - at least at this time - as monsters.\n\nAn actual meaning of 'monsters' seems a bit unlikely, especially engraved on \nevery panel.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<35FD61D6761840CDBA9B44A86C1135A1@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-15T18:01:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "<9CBE8DE0-7D64-4A1F-A774-735E17B02DA1@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " From: Son of Witz \n\n Did anyone even notice my recent verticality metaphor? (Foes of the Increate) I don't think anyone has laid that out before, yet it is right there under your nose and doesn't require assembling elusive fragments of perceived clues, and frankly seems to be a huge symbolic reality that the plot is stretched tautly over. It surprises me that these things remain hidden while we elaborate on whether or not the House Absolute is a crashed ship. It is an interesting exercise but it doesn't really get us any closer to the essence of the work. (which isn't to say good stuff can't come of such thinking. I'm still reeling over the idea that Latro is a werewolf.\nIt's interesting - but to what extent can it be explained by the juxtaposition of \"Severian travels through a mountainous region\" and \"Severian meets enemies\"? \n\nErebus and company, and the Ascians if indeed they count as foes of the Increate, can be explained away by saying that only defeated enemies count. (And Vodalus too, I suppose, although he is defeated in the next book.) And it seems not unreasonable that Typhon should be on top. The alzabo, however, seems to me to fall in the category of an animal; it is used by foe Vodalus but also by the Autarchy.\n\nSo I'm not convinced overall that this is an overarching scheme that the plot is stretched to cover.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1417CBEF-B6C6-420C-91CB-DE6FDF62D08B@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-15T18:15:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "<46378429D4804E0FB49B2EB4142F2F1A@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 15, 2010, at 9:43 AM, \"Gerry Quinn\" wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSo, of course I'm trying to figure out what this teratoid symbol LOOKS like." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I see that it is mostly a medical term for monstrous abnormality and tumours and such., but I don't find associated symbols with an image search." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I envisage a sort of red octopussy symbol, with rotational symmetry.\n\nNote that the symbol appears on each mirror also:\n\n----------------------\nI was delighted to hear his voice, and largely in the hope that he would speak again, I asked, \"Where are we, then?\"\n\"On Urth,\" he answered, and strode across the room to the folded panels. Their backs were set with clustered diamonds, as I now saw, and enameled with such twisted signs as had been on the door.\n\n-----------------------\n\nIt may just be alienese for 'quantum reflector' or whatever the proper term for the mirrors is.\n\nThat the sign seems teratoid to Severian may not reflect its true meaning, even if it is intended as a hint to the reader that monsters can lurk in mirrors. Then again he associates the symbol with cacogens, whom he thinks of - at least at this time - as monsters.\n\nAn actual meaning of 'monsters' seems a bit unlikely, especially engraved on every panel.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for pointing out the second mention of the \"twisted signs\". Every description of things in the book seem to be repeated, phrased slightly differently. Trying To hunt these down and compile them is tough." } ] }, { "message_id": "<7625528F-9BA6-4A46-B8E8-460919872ABC@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-15T18:30:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Foes of the Increate", "in_reply_to": "<35FD61D6761840CDBA9B44A86C1135A1@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 15, 2010, at 10:01 AM, \"Gerry Quinn\" wrote:\n \nFrom: Son of Witz\n \nDid anyone even notice my recent verticality metaphor? (Foes of the Increate) I don't think anyone has laid that out before, yet it is right there under your nose and doesn't require assembling elusive fragments of perceived clues, and frankly seems to be a huge symbolic reality that the plot is stretched tautly over. It surprises me that these things remain hidden while we elaborate on whether or not the House Absolute is a crashed ship. It is an interesting exercise but it doesn't really get us any closer to the essence of the work. (which isn't to say good stuff can't come of such thinking. I'm still reeling over the idea that Latro is a werewolf.\nIt's interesting - but to what extent can it be explained by the juxtaposition of \"Severian travels through a mountainous region\" and \"Severian meets enemies\"? \n \nErebus and company, and the Ascians if indeed they count as foes of the Increate, can be explained away by saying that only defeated enemies count. (And Vodalus too, I suppose, although he is defeated in the next book.) And it seems not unreasonable that Typhon should be on top. The alzabo, however, seems to me to fall in the category of an animal; it is used by foe Vodalus but also by the Autarchy.\n \nSo I'm not convinced overall that this is an overarching scheme that the plot is stretched to cover.\n \n- Gerry Quinn\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fair enough. Thanks.\n\nI don't explain them away. All enemies \"count,\" but yes, defeated foes seem to count more.\nI ammend the original explanation to suggest that Erebus and Abia are lowest, in direct oppositon. I know that makes for a wonky hierarchy, but it seems to fit a sort of \"magical thinking.\" It sort of works that they fit like this in that Severian never engages them directly, and Juturna helps more than hinders him.\n\nI did account for the Ascians, though I don't know exactly where they fit in the vertical map. I imagine that \"North, in the mountains\" is higher than the commonwealth. I suppose I'd rank them near the zoanthropes. Both surrender their God-given humanity. The Zoanthropes sin might be greater, because it is self imposed, whereas the Ascian populace seems to have it forced upon them by their leaders." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's interesting - but to what extent can it be explained by the juxtaposition of \"Severian travels through a mountainous region\" and \"Severian meets enemies\"? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, we could say this about all such plot symbols.\nWe could as easily say that \"the plot sends Severian climbing to meet and surpass the various foes of God.\"\nI mean, when he enters the forgotten tunnels of the fourth level and the library stacks, are we not supposed to understand that he is being metaphorically, and literally guided through the labyrinth of Urth's past where, in both cases, he finds something of seeming permanence or endurance? (meaning the Atrium of Time and The Wonders of Urth and Sky) I'm sorry, but it is clearly MORE true than, \"Severian gets lost and instead of finding his dog finds his future wife\" and \"Severian goes on an errand to fetch books and is waylaid by a rambling old man babbling about somemusty BS.\"\n\n~Witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-15T19:02:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "<1417CBEF-B6C6-420C-91CB-DE6FDF62D08B@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn- It may just be alienese for 'quantum reflector' or whatever the proper term \nfor the mirrors is.That the sign seems teratoid to Severian may not reflect its true meaning, \neven if it is intended as a hint to the reader that monsters can lurk in mirrors. Then again he \nassociates the symbol with cacogens, whom he thinks of - at least at this time - as monsters.\nAn actual meaning of 'monsters' seems a bit unlikely, especially engraved on \nevery panel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSince this entire story is from Severian's point of view, we can only discern meaning based on what\nhe understands and what we think he doesn't understand but we do. He wrote BotNS as an experienced,\nknowledgeable Autarch. We are often left unclear whether he is reporting his later interpretations of \nthings as this knowledegable ruler or his interpretation of events as they happened to him as a \nyoung Torturers journeyman.\n \nI'd guess the symbols were put on the panels by their maker. If I had to guess who made them I'd guess\nFather Inire and they serve as a maker's mark. If Severian chooses to call these symbols \"teratoid\" it \nmight be that he understands Father Inire better than we think or know. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0910CD.8010502@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-15T19:02:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "<1417CBEF-B6C6-420C-91CB-DE6FDF62D08B@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The more I consider it, the better I like the biohazard symbol as a \ncandidate. It has tentacles and each one has a small pair of horns on top.\n\nu+16b9" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: \"Son of Witz\" >\nSo, of course I'm trying to figure out what this teratoid symbol \nLOOKS like.\nI see that it is mostly a medical term for monstrous abnormality and \ntumours and such., but I don't find associated symbols with an image \nsearch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Dec 15, 2010, at 9:43 AM, \"Gerry Quinn\" > wrote:\nI envisage a sort of red octopussy symbol, with rotational symmetry.\nNote that the symbol appears on each mirror also:\n\n----------------------\nI was delighted to hear his voice, and largely in the hope that he \nwould speak again, I asked, \"Where are we, then?\"\n\"On Urth,\" he answered, and strode across the room to the folded \npanels. Their backs were set with clustered diamonds, as I now saw, \nand enameled with such twisted signs as had been on the door.\n\n-----------------------\n\nIt may just be alienese for 'quantum reflector' or whatever the \nproper term for the mirrors is.\n\nThat the sign seems teratoid to Severian may not reflect its true \nmeaning, even if it is intended as a hint to the reader that monsters \ncan lurk in mirrors. Then again he associates the symbol with \ncacogens, whom he thinks of - at least at this time - as monsters.\n\nAn actual meaning of 'monsters' seems a bit unlikely, especially \nengraved on every panel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Son of Witz\" >\nThanks for pointing out the second mention of the \"twisted signs\". \n Every description of things in the book seem to be repeated, phrased \nslightly differently. Trying To hunt these down and compile them is tough." } ] }, { "message_id": "<167020.34094.qm@web84101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-15T19:59:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Wed, 12/15/10, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, December 15, 2010, 12:27 PM\nFrom: \"David Stockhoff\" \nHere's the main point: the House Absolute and the antechamber are partly based on the palace of the Sun King at Verseilles, the very pinnacle of ornamental aristocratic uselessness. Thecla's memory of her youth illustrates this uselessness. Imagine our heroes caught there, wandering among dusty rooms and secret doors and hidden closets. They pass rich chambers and hurrying servants. They go down steps and find a door out of our near future with a red symbol warning of monsters." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There may be some resemblances to Versailles, particularly in that the House Absolute was intended as a seat of government away from the capital, and that it grew slowly over a long period with many changes and alterations. There are some differences too; the House Absolute is built underground, it contains a secret second house, and it appears toi extend all the way to Nessus. Its usefulness or otherwise is neither here nor there, I think.\n---Not the usefulness of the House. The uselessness of the aristocracy. And it is relevant if the shippiness of the Antechamber distracts from or otherwise unnecessarily complicates that very simple reading.\n\nI don't see why any of this would prevent the incorporation of a repurposed starship if one was to hand. We know that such repurposing of spacecraft is done elsewhere in the Commonwealth. Also, when making mental images of the place based on Severian's descriptions, it may be worth remembering that unlike us he grew up in such a repurposed spacecraft.\n\n---As someone pointed out, Severian ought to have recognized a ship for that very reason." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At no time does Jonas, who is now \"metal\" Jonas, \"meat\" Jonas having been stunned, mention ships. When he mentions the ceiling and its compartmentalization, he uses the language of an ancient, long-occupied terrestrial palace. At this point they are deep underground." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He dreams about his spaceship while he is there. (So does Severian!)? I don't see anything in his language that refers specifically to terrestrial structure. He says \"we used to call that a drop ceiling\". Maybe he meant \"when we were visiting palaces on Urth\" or maybe he meant \"in my job as a spaceman\" - he doesn't elaborate on which.\n---You're right---he doesn't say, \"Me an' me maties used to be callin that thar a drop ceiling when we wuz cubicle gnomes on the insurance adjustin' ship Pequod.\"\n\nAs for being underground, maybe the parts of the House Absolute were excavated, or maybe they were built and covered over. If one part was built around a crashed interstellar ship (as Versailles itself accreted around a huntiung lodge) it might even have started off in a crater, making the workmens' task easier!\n--Sure, if there was nothing left of the ship but a huge crater! Waitaminute..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I really don't understand why this idea is being pursued further." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You and others have pointed out certain difficulties with the conception; I would say they are all perfectly answerable with a little imagination. It's equally true that the clues I have suggested lead in this direction clearly seem quite unconvincing to some, although many have attempted to find their way through Wolfe's labyrinths by following threads that seem even finer!\n\nI still find the idea quite interesting and by no means too implausible to discount. However, I will leave it at, unless I find some huge hitherto unnoticed lead. In any case, unless one starts spinning fanciful secret histories, it seems to have no huge import for the story one way or the other - it just slightly modifies our impressions of Urth.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<340956.46475.qm@web84102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-15T20:02:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "<46378429D4804E0FB49B2EB4142F2F1A@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're right. Unless they are known in some vernacular as \"monster panels.\"\n\"Gimme a hand here with this shipment o' monster panels. By crikey, who needs fifteen pallets of 'em?\"\n\n--- On Wed, 12/15/10, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Father Inire: teratoid\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, December 15, 2010, 12:43 PM\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSo, of course I'm trying to figure out what this teratoid symbol LOOKS like.\nI see that it is mostly a medical term for monstrous abnormality and tumours and such., but I don't find associated symbols with an image search." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I envisage a sort of red octopussy symbol, with rotational symmetry.\n\nNote that the symbol appears on each mirror also:\n\n----------------------\nI was delighted to hear his voice, and largely in the hope that he would speak again, I asked, \"Where are we, then?\"\n\"On Urth,\" he answered, and strode across the room to the folded panels. Their backs were set with clustered diamonds, as I now saw, and enameled with such twisted signs as had been on the door.\n\n-----------------------\n\nIt may just be alienese for 'quantum reflector' or whatever the proper term for the mirrors is.\n\nThat the sign seems teratoid to Severian may not reflect its true meaning, even if it is intended as a hint to the reader that monsters can lurk in mirrors. Then again he associates the symbol with cacogens, whom he thinks of - at least at this time - as monsters.\n\nAn actual meaning of 'monsters' seems a bit unlikely, especially engraved on every panel.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<35ad00b36aba75fda69b0c10082fdaf5@imap.io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton IO", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-15T20:33:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "<340956.46475.qm@web84102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 12:02:38 -0800 (PST), DAVID STOCKHOFF\n wrote:\nYou're right. Unless they are known in some vernacular as \"monster\npanels.\"\n\"Gimme a hand here with this shipment o' monster panels. By crikey, who\nneeds fifteen pallets of 'em?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They're just like regular panels, except the ends are gold-plated and they\ncost eight times as much.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<323675.10285.qm@web84106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-15T20:56:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now you're cooking, Lee. Yes, I can see demonic characters on each panel. And I can see a little red horned head, too.\nSeverian, I'm quite sure, would not recognize Dat Ol Debbil if he poked him in the ass with a pitchfork, any more than he would know Santa Claus.\n\n--- On Wed, 12/15/10, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Lee Berman \nSubject: (urth) Father Inire: teratoid\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Wednesday, December 15, 2010, 2:02 PM\nGerry Quinn- It may just be alienese for 'quantum reflector' or whatever the proper term \nfor the mirrors is.That the sign seems teratoid to Severian may not reflect its true meaning, \neven if it is intended as a hint to the reader that monsters can lurk in mirrors. Then again he \nassociates the symbol with cacogens, whom he thinks of - at least at this time - as monsters.\nAn actual meaning of 'monsters' seems a bit unlikely, especially engraved on \nevery panel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSince this entire story is from Severian's point of view, we can only discern meaning based on what\nhe understands and what we think he doesn't understand but we do. He wrote BotNS as an experienced,\nknowledgeable Autarch. We are often left unclear whether he is reporting his later interpretations of \nthings as this knowledegable ruler or his interpretation of events as they happened to him as a \nyoung Torturers journeyman.\n \nI'd guess the symbols were put on the panels by their maker. If I had to guess who made them I'd guess\nFather Inire and they serve as a maker's mark. If Severian chooses to call these symbols \"teratoid\" it \nmight be that he understands Father Inire better than we think or know. ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ? " } ] }, { "message_id": "<749463.81106.qm@web84101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-15T21:13:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "<35ad00b36aba75fda69b0c10082fdaf5@imap.io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Radio Shack never has them when you need them.\n\n--- On Wed, 12/15/10, Adam Thornton (IO) wrote:\n\nFrom: Adam Thornton (IO) \nSubject: Re: (urth) Father Inire: teratoid\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, December 15, 2010, 3:33 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 12:02:38 -0800 (PST), DAVID STOCKHOFF\n wrote:\nYou're right. Unless they are known in some vernacular as \"monster\npanels.\"\n\"Gimme a hand here with this shipment o' monster panels. By crikey, who\nneeds fifteen pallets of 'em?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They're just like regular panels, except the ends are gold-plated and they\ncost eight times as much.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6183F900A3FF49D2B62809092EE46920@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-16T18:03:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn- It may just be alienese for 'quantum reflector' or whatever \nthe proper term\nfor the mirrors is.That the sign seems teratoid to Severian may not \nreflect its true meaning,\neven if it is intended as a hint to the reader that monsters can lurk in \nmirrors. Then again he\nassociates the symbol with cacogens, whom he thinks of - at least at this \ntime - as monsters.\nAn actual meaning of 'monsters' seems a bit unlikely, especially engraved \non\nevery panel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Since this entire story is from Severian's point of view, we can only \ndiscern meaning based on what\nhe understands and what we think he doesn't understand but we do. He wrote \nBotNS as an experienced,\nknowledgeable Autarch. We are often left unclear whether he is reporting \nhis later interpretations of\nthings as this knowledegable ruler or his interpretation of events as they \nhappened to him as a\nyoung Torturers journeyman.\n\nI'd guess the symbols were put on the panels by their maker. If I had to \nguess who made them I'd guess\nFather Inire and they serve as a maker's mark. If Severian chooses to call \nthese symbols \"teratoid\" it\nmight be that he understands Father Inire better than we think or know." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One problem with interpreting 'teratoid' as Inire's mark is that nowhere \nelse in the books is such a mark associated with him. There is no clue \nneeded here either - we are expressly told that this part of the House \nAbsolute is Inire's domain, and we are told elsewhere about his mirrors.\n\nAnd it doesn't seem long since people were insisting that Inire's \nidentifying mark was a monkey!\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T18:32:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "<6183F900A3FF49D2B62809092EE46920@jill>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: One problem with interpreting 'teratoid' as Inire's mark is that nowhere \nelse in the books is such a mark associated with him. There is no clue needed here either - \nwe are expressly told that this part of the House Absolute is Inire's domain, and we are told \nelsewhere about his mirrors. And it doesn't seem long since people were insisting that Inire's \nidentifying mark was a monkey!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI don't interpret the teratoid symbol as Inire's maker mark. I only mentioned that possibility\nin response to somebody who was asserting their only possible meaning was as a factory stamp or \nsomething like that. \n \n \nI think all alien glyphs in the story are meant by Wolfe to be incomprehensible and meaningless \nto human beings. That includes us, the readers. I consider Severian's meager interpretation of the \nalien symbols he sees to be the best he can do to add HIS meaning to them.\n \nSo the suggestion is not that Father Inire considers himself to be a monster but that at some level, \nSeverian considers him one. We don't need to see teratoid symbols everywhere, all over the\nCommonwealth to get the message. Just a few times in Father Inire's chambers will do nicely.\n \nMonkeys are in the past Gerry. We need to evolve! ;- )\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T19:06:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire: teratoid", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 16, 2010, at 1:32 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI think all alien glyphs in the story are meant by Wolfe to be incomprehensible and meaningless \nto human beings. That includes us, the readers. I consider Severian's meager interpretation of the \nalien symbols he sees to be the best he can do to add HIS meaning to them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Really? I thought the opposite. I thought all things Severian cannot comprehend and perceives as arcane things were likely, usually, things common to our world, with no better example than the portrait of the astronaut in the pinakotheken.\n\n...ryan" } ] } ] }