{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5814", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5814, "subject": "Ships", "messages": 5, "voices": 4, "first": "2010-12-11T19:02:16+00:00", "last": "2010-12-12T21:36:30+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-11T19:02:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ships", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nIf he had interstellar ships (which would have to" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "be faster-than-light, I think, to get between the stars in times that\nwould enable him actually to run an empire) it becomes puzzling what\nwas the significance of his launching the Whorl - which Wolfe has said\nwas intended to 'return humanity to the stars'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe they were just nearly as fast as light, i.e. good enough to escape to\nthe stars. ?We don;t know much - or anything, really - ?about the politics\nof his empire." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If they were just nearly as fast as light, they would have taken four\nyears to reach the nearest star. (Actually, of course, the stars\nshould have moved, but Wolfe seems to be ignoring that.) Can you\nreally be said to rule a land it takes four years to get to? You can\nif you have FTL communication even without FTL travel, a la Ursula K.\nLe Guin or Orson Scott Card, but I see no hint of that in Wolfe. Yes,\nperhaps he was sending expedtions to the nearer stars, but I still\nthink he's exaggerating when he said he ruled them.\n\n?And as you mention elsewhere, Vodalus confirms the fact of" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "ships, so it's not just Typhon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But that, I think, was a lot earlier. Both Cyriaca and Wolfe in\ninterviews seem to say that Typhon was trying to bring back something\nthat had been lost." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for the Whorl, perhaps it is a question of scale. ?The Whorl can\ntransport many millions of perhaps unwilling colonists. ?Smaller vessels\nmight not transport enough, and might also be even more prone to mission\ncreep." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I conclude that it was" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jonas's ship, or one just like it - at it seems more elegant that it be the\nsame vessel..\n\nPerhaps some of the ship's crew stayed aboard and were interned there\npending resolution of their cases, and it later became used for other\nindividuals." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But does this not conflict with the idea that originally it actually\nwas an antechamber? Only gradually did it develop into a prison. So if\nKim Lee Soong had been in it from the start, he would have got out. I\nthink it must have been in operation for some time when he entered it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D03DD2E.2080204@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-11T20:21:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ships and Empires", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doesn't it all depend on the kind of empire you are thinking of? There \nare rigid empires and flexible ones; personal ones (like Napoleon's and \nAlexander's) and more structured ones. These handle distance differently.\n\nConsider how long it took British ships to reach India.\n\nConsider that when Peter the Great died, it took about 5 years for this \nnews to reach Paris.\n\nConsider that the Persian Empire consisted of satrapies which had to be \nreconquered every few decades even under Cyrus.\n\nEgypt under the Sultans was independent for decades but showed up as \nTurkish on maps long after the British co-opted it, because the Bey was \nnominally loyal to the Sultan.\n\nWhen parts of Central Asia became independent in the 1880s, it took the \nChinese 10 years to take it back. Each year their army campaigned, \nstopped to plant crops, overwintered, and moved on again. No one in the \nWest took any notice except the British and the Russians.\n\nBut communications in the Roman Empire were comparatively rapid due to \ntechnology and the Middle Sea, and so we naturally relate to that kind \nof highly structured empire.\n\nIf your ships are constantly going out among the stars, you will have \nships reaching the provinces as often as you have ships going out. If \nyou have an elite in place in that world or a little king who depends on \nyour support (say, blast pistols delivered annually), you don't need to \ngo out there personally even every four years.\n\nEven if every planet is relatively autonomous, it can still be part of \nan empire, if the empire is a nominal one or a mercantile one. I think \nthis is why Wolfe doesn't go into the details---it's not worth it. \nTyphon's empire could have lasted only a century (like the American \nEmpire will) and still stand as a high mark in human interstellar power." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/11/2010 2:02 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nIf they were just nearly as fast as light, they would have taken four\nyears to reach the nearest star. (Actually, of course, the stars\nshould have moved, but Wolfe seems to be ignoring that.) Can you\nreally be said to rule a land it takes four years to get to? You can\nif you have FTL communication even without FTL travel, a la Ursula K.\nLe Guin or Orson Scott Card, but I see no hint of that in Wolfe. Yes,\nperhaps he was sending expedtions to the nearer stars, but I still\nthink he's exaggerating when he said he ruled them." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-11T21:19:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ships", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Andrew Mason\" \nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If he had interstellar ships (which would have to\nbe faster-than-light, I think, to get between the stars in times that\nwould enable him actually to run an empire) it becomes puzzling what\nwas the significance of his launching the Whorl - which Wolfe has said\nwas intended to 'return humanity to the stars'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Maybe they were just nearly as fast as light, i.e. good enough to escape \nto\nthe stars. We don;t know much - or anything, really - about the politics\nof his empire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If they were just nearly as fast as light, they would have taken four\nyears to reach the nearest star. (Actually, of course, the stars\nshould have moved, but Wolfe seems to be ignoring that.) Can you\nreally be said to rule a land it takes four years to get to? You can\nif you have FTL communication even without FTL travel, a la Ursula K.\nLe Guin or Orson Scott Card, but I see no hint of that in Wolfe. Yes,\nperhaps he was sending expedtions to the nearer stars, but I still\nthink he's exaggerating when he said he ruled them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We have FTL communication, via the mirrors. But you may well be right - we \nknow next to nothing about Typhon's supposed interstellar empire; all we are \ncertain of is that he was Emperor on Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I conclude that it was\nJonas's ship, or one just like it - at it seems more elegant that it be \nthe\nsame vessel..\n\nPerhaps some of the ship's crew stayed aboard and were interned there\npending resolution of their cases, and it later became used for other\n individuals." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But does this not conflict with the idea that originally it actually\nwas an antechamber? Only gradually did it develop into a prison. So if\nKim Lee Soong had been in it from the start, he would have got out. I\nthink it must have been in operation for some time when he entered it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But he was supposed to be the most distant ancestor of the current \noccupants! The story is not terribly consistent by either interpretation! \nPerhaps over time the details became confused...\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-12T17:34:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ships", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n Only gradually did it develop into a prison. So if" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Kim Lee Soong had been in it from the start, he would have got out. I\nthink it must have been in operation for some time when he entered it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But he was supposed to be the most distant ancestor of the current\noccupants!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of one family of current occupants. (I've seen it said quite\nfrequently that he is the ancestor of all the current occupants, but\nI've never seen why. Jonas specifically refers to a particular family,\nwhose members he lists, who occupy an alcove of their own.) But even\nif he were the most distant ancestor of all the current occupants,\nthat needn't make him the first occupant. The people who were there in\nthe first few generations all left." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-12T21:36:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ships", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason: Of one family of current occupants. (I've seen it said quite frequently \nthat he is the ancestor of all the current occupants, but I've never seen why. Jonas \nspecifically refers to a particular family, whose members he lists, who occupy an alcove \nof their own.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nGene Wolfe spent the decade before writing BotNS watching silly US TV shows with his kids\nas my parents did with me. The impact of 60's TV shows cannot be underestimated. I've \npreviously identified Jolenta as modeled after Ginger from Gilligan's Island.\n \nA classic book was converted to a classic movie in 1960- Swiss Family Robinson. This story \nin turn was converted to a cheesy, low-budget SF tv show called Lost In Space, featuring the\nRobinson Family, the nefarious, conniving Dr. Smith and their noble Robot servitor (Warning!\nWarning! Danger Will Robinson!).\n \nIt is quite apparent that Hethor has been avoiding Jonas since their first meeting. He hides\nin the tunnel through the Wall of Nessus, avoids him on the path to the House Absolute and avoids \nhim in the antechamber. As a Dr. Smith analog, Hethor does not want to be recognized by his \nshipmate, the Robot-analog Jonas.\n \n;- ) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }