{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5816", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5816, "subject": "Urth Digest, Vol 76, Issue 82", "messages": 15, "voices": 5, "first": "2010-12-13T00:13:39+00:00", "last": "2010-12-13T22:51:29+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-13T00:13:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 76, Issue 82", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n\n Severian CAN be both a virgin and non-virgin. The reason is because" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "he is not a material being. His substance is a product of text and mental images. Since the\nmain text suggests he is a virgin and the sub-text suggests he is not, we can have two\ncontradictory mental images formed. Which is right? That's the point. Neither or both!\n\nI am not engaging in silly sophistry. I believe Wolfe writes with the exact principles I just\noutlined in mind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, OK. Well, then...\n\nI think that _in general_ the distinction I made still holds. A work\ncan have an allegorical meaning, or a mythic resonance, or a reference\nto the author's biography, or whatever, without this in any way\nsubverting its literal meaning. While if a work has another literal\nmeaning, distinct from the surface one, this will _normally_ subvert\nthe surface meaning. In discovering what really happens, we discover\nthat we were wrong about what seemed to happen. I now know (because\nyou have explained) that this is not what you were claiming about\nWolfe. But I suspect that some interpreters of Wolfe - Peter Wright,\nperhaps, or Robert Borski - have been trying to show that normal ways\nof reading him were wrong. Certainly it's not obvious that they were\nnot doing that.\n\nNow, an author definitely can do what you describe - intending more\nthan one literal meaning without intending either to be the right one.\nDoes Wolfe do so? Almost certainly he does. I think that _The Fifth\nHead of Cerberus_ is probably meant to be radically ambiguous about\nwho, if any, are the indigenous people and who, if any, are the\ncolonists. But them I'm not sure that _Cerberus_ can really be said to\nhave a surface meaning - whatever the truth is, it's hidden. There are\nsome statements that all readers can agree on, like 'There is a\ncharacter called Number Five', but they aren't really enough to tell\nus what the story is about. So what you are positing in _New Sun_ is\nsomething rather different, I think.\n\nI take it that on any reading there are going to be some stable facts\n- things like 'Severian is a torturer', or 'Typhon has two heads'.\nThese aren't going to become matters of dispute. But I think there are\nalso things which may become matters of dispute, but to which there is\na right answer. This is because, as I've said before, Wolfe\noverestimates his readers' intelligence; he expects things to be clear\nwhen they aren't. Often when asked about such things he is quite ready\nto clarify them. For instance, when asked who Blood's father was he\nsaid, quite straighforwardly, 'Patera Pike' - and once he has said\nthat, you can look at the text and see things which do indeed indicate\nit. Before he said that people may have had different views on who\nBlood's father was, and those turned out to be wrong. it's not clear\nwhere to draw a line between cases like this and the kind of radical\nambiguity you're suggesting, where no one needs to be wrong.\n\nNow, I'm going to bypass the God stuff, interesting though it is\n(though I do think that not everyone who believes in God will accept\nthe way you describe the question - and especially not all Catholics)\nbecause I think even if you are right there I can still make my\npoint. Even if there is some kind of radical contradiction in the\nnature of reality, you can't accept that _everything_ is true. (It is\na principle of traditional logic that from a contradiction everything\nfollows, but those philosophers who accept contradictions reject this\nprinciple.) .When I believe something I don't automatically also\nbelieve the opposite. And the same applies to literature (and indeed,\nI would say, can be applied rather more comfortably to literature than\nto reality); even if I accept that a work has more than one reading,\nincompatible but equally real, this does not mean that I will accept\nevery reading of it. So I need some test of plausibility to decide\nwhat I will accept and what I will reject. This may not exactly\nfollow the canons of traditional logic, but it's still a standard of\nrationality of some kind.\n\n(If you could resume virginity after a year, that would have made\nquite a difference to life on the Whorl.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D062791.3030402@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-13T14:02:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 76, Issue 82", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason-\nOften when asked about such things he is quite ready\nto clarify them. For instance, when asked who Blood's father was he\nsaid, quite straighforwardly, 'Patera Pike' - and once he has said\nthat, you can look at the text and see things which do indeed indicate\nit. Before he said that people may have had different views on who\nBlood's father was, and those turned out to be wrong. it's not clear\nwhere to draw a line between cases like this and the kind of radical\nambiguity you're suggesting, where no one needs to be wrong." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Off the subject, you know, I can't ever remember being confused about \nBlood's father. I was really surprised to learn it was a matter of \ndispute. I'm not bragging. I mean, I might have just been lucky in \npicking my interpretation. However, it brings to mind Lee's young \nwoman/crone picture analogy. Or, Stephen King's ink blot/picture of \nJesus analogy in \"The Shining\". When I read it, I said \"Oh, Pike, Blood, \nRose of Sharon.\" People bring different backgrounds to Wolfe's works and \nsometimes they pay off. I always think of Alice K. Turner's connection \nbetween Jonas and the Tin Woodman.\nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0209/1785.txt.shtml" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-13T15:17:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 76, Issue 82", "in_reply_to": "<4D062791.3030402@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: I mean, I might have just been lucky in picking my interpretation. However, it brings \nto mind Lee's young woman/crone picture analogy. Or, Stephen King's ink blot/picture of \nJesus analogy in \"The Shining\". When I read it, I said \"Oh, Pike, Blood, Rose of Sharon.\" People \nbring different backgrounds to Wolfe's works and sometimes they pay off. I always think of Alice K. \nTurner's connection between Jonas and the Tin Woodman." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nwow, that is good. Not sure if I encountered that Alice analogy in my perusal of the Archives before joining.\nNick Chopper did become tin by losing body parts and replacing them with metal ones. It was the opposite\nprocess which created Jonas so I guess he is an anti-Tin Woodman. Just as Baldanders is an anti-Frankenstein;\na monster who created his doctor.\n\nFor some reason (aside from Lost In Space robot, heh) I always saw in sad, skinny Jonas riding his merychip and \nvainly pursuing a haughty Jolenta, a model from Don Quixote, Rosinante and Dulcinea. Severian doesn't make the \nbest Sancho Panza but hey.\n \nJames it is a good observation that we all bring different things to the table. There are no universal truths\nhere and context is more important than many would like to admit in their understanding of others' viewpoints.\nPersonality conflicts and testosterone levels matter. Even metaphor choice. In the past I used the lovers-\ndolphins optical illusion to make my point and failed to make it. But the young woman-crone seemed to resonate\nbetter, probably because as Antonio so aptly noted, she is a shapeshifter. Always easier to \"believe\" in \nsomething we see happening right in front of us.\n \n(haven't read any Stephen King. Is that Jesus/inkblot thing in The Shining movie?) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D063D6A.8000403@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-13T15:36:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 76, Issue 82", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman-\n(haven't read any Stephen King. Is that Jesus/inkblot thing in The Shining movie?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. It's only in the novel. It's when Jack looks at the sun shining in \nthe windows of the hotel and has an epiphany that everything his son has \nbeen saying about the place is true. It's a personality. A menacing \npersonality.\nHe compares it to when he was a kid in Sunday School and the teacher \nshowed them a picture that was all ink splotches and said there was a \npicture of Jesus in it (I've seen these, but I can't find an example of \nwhat I saw on the web). All the other kids said they saw it and Jack was \nso angry because he couldn't. He told himself they were pretending. They \nwere just CLAIMING to see it because the teacher said it was there. So \nhe stayed after and stared at the picture for long time but only saw ink \nsplotches. Then suddenly he saw it, and he couldn't see anything else.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D064BA7.6050605@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-13T16:36:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 76, Issue 82", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman-\nThere are no universal truths\nhere and context is more important than many would like to admit in their understanding of others' viewpoints." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There _are_ universal truths. Some questions are unanswerable because \nWolfe didn't think of them while writing. But there are single answers \nto many open questions. But, I affirm, the same tests cannot deduce them \nall. And sometimes...well, I always offer as an example the question \nabout why Auk kidnapped Hyacinth and why he let her go.\n\n 22. /Why did Auk ... kidnap Hyacinth, and why, subsequently, did he\n let her go?/ -- Because Tartaros had told him to bring a woman. He\n released her as he recovered from his brain injury, was able to\n think more clearly, and realized that Hyacinth was not the woman he\n should bring. (Putting it another way, he released her because\n Tartaros told him to. These answers are not as disparate as they may\n appear.)\n\nWolfe's answer to that is not derivable from the text even after one \nknows the answer. It must in every case have been guessed at before \nWolfe provided the answer. And, I believe, there are answers to \nquestions unsupposed in his answer--questions that could only be arrived \nat from cryptic answers like this.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<836647.49222.qm@web114705.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-13T17:04:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 76, Issue 82", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Lee Berman severiansola at hotmail.com\nJames Wynn: I mean, I might have just been lucky in picking my interpretation. \nHowever, it brings \n\nto mind Lee's young woman/crone picture analogy. Or, Stephen King's ink \nblot/picture of \n\nJesus analogy in \"The Shining\". When I read it, I said \"Oh, Pike, Blood, Rose of \nSharon.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nWould you mind making the connection for me among those three disparate nouns? \n(Not the\nconnection among the characters.)? Or point me to someplace in the archives?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Personality conflicts and testosterone levels matter. Even metaphor choice. In \nthe past I used the lovers-\ndolphins optical illusion to make my point and failed to make it. But the young \nwoman-crone seemed to resonate\nbetter, probably because as Antonio so aptly noted, she is a shapeshifter. \nAlways easier to \"believe\" in \n\nsomething we see happening right in front of us." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If we're collecting these, Nabokov was fond of them: \"Find What the Sailor Has \nHidden\" puzzles, or from\n/Pale Fire/:\n\n\"In life, the mind\nOf any man is quick to recognize\nNatural shams, and then before his eyes\nThe reed becomes a bird, the knobby twig\nAn inchworm, and the cobra head, a big\nWickedly folded moth.\"\n\nWe're not always that quick even in life. And of course, most of the time in \nlife and often even in reading we're\nright to read a reed as a reed.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0657B6.3090106@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-13T17:28:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 76, Issue 82", "in_reply_to": "<836647.49222.qm@web114705.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn: I mean, I might have just been lucky in picking my \ninterpretation.\nHowever, it brings to mind Lee's young woman/crone picture analogy.\nOr, Stephen King's ink blot/picture of Jesus analogy in \"The Shining\".\nWhen I read it, I said \"Oh, Pike, Blood, Rose of Sharon.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...\nJerry Friedman-\nWould you mind making the connection for me among those three \ndisparate nouns? (Not the\nconnection among the characters.) Or point me to someplace in the \narchives?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The spear that pierced Christ's side. What can I say? That's just the \nway I'm wired, I guess. I even thought the reference was obvious when I \nwrote it this morning. Clearly, I'm a little crazy, but sometimes it \nworks. It gives me an appreciation for Wolfe's problem with getting his \nclues across.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D066829.5060509@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-13T18:38:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 76, Issue 82", "in_reply_to": "<4D0657B6.3090106@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/13/2010 11:28 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "James Wynn: I mean, I might have just been lucky in picking my \ninterpretation.\nHowever, it brings to mind Lee's young woman/crone picture analogy.\nOr, Stephen King's ink blot/picture of Jesus analogy in \"The Shining\".\nWhen I read it, I said \"Oh, Pike, Blood, Rose of Sharon.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...\nJerry Friedman-\nWould you mind making the connection for me among those three \ndisparate nouns? (Not the\nconnection among the characters.) Or point me to someplace in the \narchives?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The spear that pierced Christ's side. What can I say? That's just the \nway I'm wired, I guess. I even thought the reference was obvious when \nI wrote it this morning. Clearly, I'm a little crazy, but sometimes it \nworks. It gives me an appreciation for Wolfe's problem with getting \nhis clues across.\n\nu+16b9" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry,\n\nPerhaps you are asking yourself \"If that is the intended connection, \nshouldn't Blood have had a twin whose name is associated with water?\" \nThat's what I thought too as I was reading the books for the first time. \nI still wonder. But, once you are looking for it, the clues to Blood's \nfather seems obvious.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-13T19:07:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 76, Issue 82", "in_reply_to": "<4D066829.5060509@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn- The spear that pierced Christ's side. What can I say? That's just the \nway I'm wired, I guess. I even thought the reference was obvious when I wrote it this morning." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNoooo way! Not obvious to me, anyway, though I can hardly claim to be the most steeped authority\non Christian symbolism.\n \nJames I think you are just going to have to face facts. I DO believe you are wired that way, but it \ndoes us no good for you to think and write the way Gene Wolfe thinks and writes. We are left back at \nthe starting point. ;- ) Dumb it down and explain a lot. At least for me. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0671BF.4010908@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-13T19:19:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 76, Issue 82", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman-\nJames I think you are just going to have to face facts. I DO believe you are wired that way, but it\ndoes us no good for you to think and write the way Gene Wolfe thinks and writes. We are left back at\nthe starting point. ;- ) Dumb it down and explain a lot. At least for me. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, I'm beginning to realize that often my \"explanations\" sound to \nnormal people like one of Auk's brain-damaged sermons---channeling \nvoices from blind gods. But sometimes it works.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<101971.69374.qm@web84101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-13T20:18:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 76, Issue 82", "in_reply_to": "<4D0657B6.3090106@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pike as spear, not fish. Of course. I had to train myself to think \"fish\" just to learn the naming system.\n\n--- On Mon, 12/13/10, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Urth Digest, Vol 76, Issue 82\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, December 13, 2010, 12:28 PM\nJames Wynn: I mean, I might have just been lucky in" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " picking my interpretation. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, it brings to mind Lee's young woman/crone picture\n analogy. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or, Stephen King's ink blot/picture of Jesus analogy in\n \"The Shining\". " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When I read it, I said \"Oh, Pike, Blood, Rose of Sharon.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " ...\n \n Jerry Friedman-\n\n Would you mind making the connection for me among those three\n disparate nouns? (Not the\n connection among the characters.)? Or point me to someplace\n in the archives?\n \n \n \n\n The spear that pierced Christ's side. What can I say? That's just\n the way I'm wired, I guess. I even thought the reference was obvious\n when I wrote it this morning. Clearly, I'm a little crazy, but\n sometimes it works. It gives me an appreciation for Wolfe's problem\n with getting his clues across.\n\n \n\n u+16b9\n\n \n\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D068DC3.20704@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-13T21:18:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 76, Issue 82", "in_reply_to": "<101971.69374.qm@web84101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " >When I read it, I said \"Oh, Pike, Blood, Rose of Sharon.\"\n ...\n Jerry Friedman-\n Would you mind making the connection for me among those three\n disparate nouns? (Not the\n connection among the characters.) Or point me to someplace in\n the archives?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " James Wynn-\n The spear that pierced Christ's side. What can I say? That's just\n the way I'm wired, I guess. I even thought the reference was\n obvious when I wrote it this morning. Clearly, I'm a little crazy,\n but sometimes it works. It gives me an appreciation for Wolfe's\n problem with getting his clues across." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "DAVID STOCKHOFF-\nPike as spear, not fish. Of course. I had to train myself to think \n\"fish\" just to learn the naming system." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another example of how one can live in their own world and think it is \nuniversal. Probably, it came easy to me because it is also so unnatural \nfor me to associate \"pike\" with fish. Not a common American term. My \nparents would have had no problem understanding that \"The Rose of \nSharon\" = Christ. Nor would many other adults I knew as a child. Neither \nwould Joan Baez or anyone else with a background in early 60s folk \nmusic. \"Rose of Sharon\" is a well-known folk hymn (among those who know \nsuch things). It comes from a reference in Song of Solomon 2:1 (KJV), \"I \nam a rose of Sharon, a lily of the valleys.\"\n\nWhen it first got to be associated with Jesus I don't know. But as \nattested in the number of songs you get if you google \"rose of sharon \nlyrics\", the association is pretty broad. There's additionally an old \ngospel hymn that says \"He's the lily of the valleys, the bright and \nmorning star. He's fairest of ten thousand to my soul\".\n\nRose of Sharon lyrics\n------------------------------\nThere's a Beautiful Rose ever blooming,\nIn the Garden of God's Love for me;\nIt has filled all the world with it's fragrance,\nIt will last for eternity.\n\nChorus\nRose of Sharon now blooming I see,\nBlessed Jesus, who died on the tree;\nWith my whole heart I sing \"Hallelujah!\"\nRose of Sharon, so precious to me.\n\n[chorus]\n\nPrecious Savior, I'll always adore Thee,\nFor with Thee no one else can compare;\nBy Thy Love so divine, I'm enraptured,\nThou are fairer than all of the fair.\n\n[chorus]\n\nAre you lost in your sins ~ tired of living?\nIs your heart filled with bitterness, too?\nCome to Jesus, the sweet Rose of Sharon,\nHe has the power to make you anew.\n\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<785090.71670.qm@web114707.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-13T21:54:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike, Rose, Blood", "in_reply_to": "<4D068DC3.20704@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: James Wynn crushtv at gmail.com\nWhen I read it, I said \"Oh, Pike, Blood, Rose of Sharon.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "...\n\nJerry Friedman-\nWould you mind making the connection for me among those three disparate nouns? \n(Not the\nconnection among the characters.)? Or point me to someplace in the archives?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn-\nThe spear that pierced Christ's side. What can I say? That's just the way I'm \nwired, I guess. I even thought the reference was obvious when I wrote it this \nmorning. Clearly, I'm a little crazy, but sometimes it works. It gives me an \nappreciation for Wolfe's problem with getting his clues across." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "DAVID STOCKHOFF-" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pike as spear, not fish. Of course. I had to train myself to think \"fish\" just \nto learn the naming system." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another example of how one can live in their own world and think it is \nuniversal. Probably, it came easy to me because it is also so unnatural for me > \nto associate \"pike\" with fish. Not a common American term." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Common in Ohio where I grew up, though anglers were more likely to shorten \n\"northern pike\" into \"northern\". And there's a memorable pike (fish) in /The \nSword in the Stone/." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My parents would have had no problem understanding that \"The Rose of Sharon\" = \nChrist. Nor would many other adults I knew as a child.\nNeither would Joan Baez or anyone else with a background in early 60s folk \nmusic. \"Rose of Sharon\" is a well-known folk hymn (among those\nwho know such things). It comes from a reference in Song of Solomon 2:1 (KJV), \n\"I am a rose of Sharon, a lily of the valleys.\" \n\n\nWhen it first got to be associated with Jesus I don't know. But as attested in \nthe number of songs you get if you google \"rose of sharon lyrics\", the\nassociation is pretty broad. There's additionally an old gospel hymn that says \n\"He's the lily of the valleys, the bright and morning star. He's fairest of\nten thousand to my soul\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for filling in the last piece. For me \"rose of Sharon\" is only a minor \nassociation with \"rose\" (since roses of Sharon aren't roses, and by the way the \nplant I picture--and associate with my grandmother and thus not with \nChristianity--probably isn't the plant Gerry Quinn pictures), and even if I'd \nknown about the hymn, I'd associate roses of Sharon more with Solomon or the \nJoads?than Jesus. So yes, our own world.\n\nBy the way, if I'd remembered the story of Jesus being pierced in the side well \nenough to remember the water, I might have wondered whether Blood had a brother \nnamed Water (a chem?) or Plasma (sorry), but I wouldn't have thought he /should/ \nhave a twin.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<571581.11357.qm@web84107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-13T22:32:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 76, Issue 82", "in_reply_to": "<4D068DC3.20704@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wait, isn't that obviously a reference to Lucifer?\n\n\n--- On Mon, 12/13/10, James Wynn wrote:\n\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Urth Digest, Vol 76, Issue 82\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, December 13, 2010, 4:18 PM\n\n\n\n \n\n \n \n \n \nWhen it first got to be associated with Jesus I don't know. But as attested in the number of songs you get if you google \"rose of sharon lyrics\", the association is pretty broad. There's additionally an old gospel hymn that says\n\"He's the lily of the valleys, the bright and morning star. He's fairest of ten thousand to my soul\"." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D06A371.10201@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-13T22:51:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pike, Rose, Blood", "in_reply_to": "<785090.71670.qm@web114707.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " James Wynn-\n The spear that pierced Christ's side." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "DAVID STOCKHOFF-\nPike as spear, not fish. Of course. I had to train myself to think \n\"fish\" just to learn the naming system." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn-\nAnother example of how one can live in their own world and think it \nis universal." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Probably, it came easy to me because it is also so unnatural for me\nto associate \"pike\" with fish. Not a common American term." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman-\nCommon in Ohio where I grew up, though anglers were more likely to \nshorten \"northern pike\" into \"northern\". And there's a memorable pike \n(fish) in /The Sword in the Stone/." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm a Buckeye too and I'd never heard the term pike or northern as a \nchild. But after looking at wikipedia page on this, I had heard of a \ngator or jackfish (but then I didn't fish much from Lake Erie in the \n70s). Yeah, The Sword in the Stone was where i first learned the term \n\"pike\". And the name for the fish, comes from the spear." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman-\nBy the way, if I'd remembered the story of Jesus being pierced in the \nside well enough to remember the water, I might have wondered whether \nBlood had a brother named Water (a chem?) or Plasma (sorry), but I \nwouldn't have thought he /should/ have a twin." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Really? Hm...well, it's just that water and blood came out together and \nit seemed pretty emphatic that she only got pregnant once. And it seemed \nlikely since Wolfe likes twins. I guess it's neither here nor there \nsince no likely candidate presented himself-- someone fiftyish with a \nfive letter name associated strongly with water...like \"ceybu\" (for \nwater buffalo) or \"crassipes\" (for water hyacinth) or maybe even a name \nthat actually *means* water. But I did really expect a twin to turn up. \nHonestly, based solely on their relationship alone, I would have \nexpected that guy to be Silk, but, again that doesn't work out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason-\nI also see it as hard to doubt (though of course Wolfe had already\nspoken when I read it). There are quite a few clues - for instance,\nMint running away from Silk lest the same thing happen to her as\nhappened to Rose." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not convinced Mint knew about Blood. Actually, I rather think she \ndidn't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason-\nI also find the 'bring a woman' thing less puzzling that you do - but\nI'll probably bring that up when I come to that point in my\nre-reading." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Cool!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason-\nOn the symbolic level, though, I wouldn't have made the same\nconnection as you, because I associate roses more with Mary than with\nJesus - and I would suspect that Wolfe does too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, there is that prophecy regarding Mary in Luke 2 \"And a sword will \npierce your own soul too.\" If only it the father's name were a sword \ninstead of a spear, we'd have it nailed. But, I don't believe Wolfe \nassociates roses with just one thing. He famously associates them with \nthe sun. I presume he associates it with a whorl. And Rose, with her \nassociates Mint and Marble (myrtle) is associated colonization as well \nas with death. There's a twisted demonic Mary-thing going on with Rose, \nthough, I admit.\n\nu+16b9" } ] } ] }