{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5823", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5823, "subject": "Mirror Image Freedom", "messages": 21, "voices": 9, "first": "2010-12-15T12:37:23+00:00", "last": "2010-12-19T03:38:42+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-15T12:37:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mirror Image Freedom", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Discussion of Sidero sparked my thoughts regarding Inire and Tzadkiel, Commonwealth and The Ship as \nreversed mirror images of each other. On the issue of freedom: The Commonwealth is highly restrictive place. \nA caste system locks people into their social status. Guilds lock people into careers. There is slavery/\nindentured servitude. The roads are closed. Reverence for the Autarch is mouthed everywhere (joining the \nwar seems to be the only measure of freedom available..oh, and also pioneering a barren land as Casdoe and \nBecan do). (if we expand our view of Urth to Ascia the freedom issue is even worse)\n \nOn the Ship there isn't much restriction at all. We have an apparently absent Captain about whom sailors \ngrumble has been too lax in control of jibers. Severian can wander around anywhere and everywhere, on deck, \nclimb the sails etc. He can become a sailor at the drop of a hat. The only measure of authority seems to be, \nironically, a piece of machinery designed entirely for human servitude: a suit of armour. Sidereo is (to me)\none of the most unpleasant characters in BotNS. But perhaps he is a symbol of freedom, (or the problems with \ntoo much freedom?) in his fury at being put to the use he was designed for, by Severian crawling inside him. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D08C592.1050902@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-15T13:41:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mirror Image Freedom", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're right---that's a huge, diametrical opposition. Stark differences \nin freedom seem to appear in the series, as well as the Wizard Knight.\n\nWhat do you think it means?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/15/2010 7:37 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nDiscussion of Sidero sparked my thoughts regarding Inire and Tzadkiel, Commonwealth and The Ship as\nreversed mirror images of each other. On the issue of freedom: The Commonwealth is highly restrictive place.\nA caste system locks people into their social status. Guilds lock people into careers. There is slavery/\nindentured servitude. The roads are closed. Reverence for the Autarch is mouthed everywhere (joining the\nwar seems to be the only measure of freedom available..oh, and also pioneering a barren land as Casdoe and\nBecan do). (if we expand our view of Urth to Ascia the freedom issue is even worse)\n\nOn the Ship there isn't much restriction at all. We have an apparently absent Captain about whom sailors\ngrumble has been too lax in control of jibers. Severian can wander around anywhere and everywhere, on deck,\nclimb the sails etc. He can become a sailor at the drop of a hat. The only measure of authority seems to be,\nironically, a piece of machinery designed entirely for human servitude: a suit of armour. Sidereo is (to me)\none of the most unpleasant characters in BotNS. But perhaps he is a symbol of freedom, (or the problems with\ntoo much freedom?) in his fury at being put to the use he was designed for, by Severian crawling inside him. \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-15T15:48:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mirror Image Freedom", "in_reply_to": "<4D08C592.1050902@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff- You're right---that's a huge, diametrical opposition. Stark differences \nin freedom seem to appear in the series, as well as the Wizard Knight.\nWhat do you think it means?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHeh, good question! You made me think about it. I have to be cautious to not inject my own\nviews into things, but rather focus on what I think are Gene Wolfe's (my own socio-anthropological\nviewpoint is that individual freedom and government control are, along with all political and\nreligious variations, a function of human adaptation to the prevailing environment of the time)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From a gnostic point of view, order/control in opposition to freedom/chaos is found in the \nmetaphors of Apollonian vs. Dionysian aspects of human nature. Apollonian being the scientific\nmale side and Dionysian being the female (or perhaps hermaphroditic) mystical side." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n(haven't we seen a conflict between these two approaches in recent debates in here? As I mentioned\nin one post, my approach here is seen in an entirely different light when I am perceived as female;\ntestosterone levels drop and the alpha male snarling subsides)\n \nI am more and more considering that The Cumaean should be seen as the female aspect of Father Inire \njust as Tzadkiel has \"his\" female side. Since the Commonwealth is a controlled, regulated, rigidly\nmaintained place, we have *Father* Inire as its de facto ruler. We never see Tzadkiel as captain of\nthe rather mystical, free-wheeling Ship on the outgoing voyage. But on the return trip we do see Tzadkiel \nsitting in the captain's chair and at that time Tzadkiel is female." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From a poltiical point of view, Gene Wolfe is a mixed bag. He (like me) was born and raised in a society\nwhich (some say fanatically) obsesses about individual freedom. But as an engineer and scholar We can guess \nhe has an appreciation for the need for a rigidly ordered society also; though order through a royal hierarchy \nseems to appeal to him more than order imposed by communist ideology and politburo committees (Group\nof 17)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nBy assigning the Dionysian, personal freedom loving domain of BotNS to his Angel and the Apollonian rigidly \ncontrolled domain to his Devil (sorry) I think Wolfe is suggesting that if we cannot have perfect balance we \nought to always err on the side of freedom. Having Tzadziel's son, Venant, be killed during the battle on Yesod \nprobably invokes his recognition of the price we must pay for freedom.\n \n \nI have not read Wizard Knight yet. Since it was written by Wolfe post-Cold War I would be interested in finding \nany socio-political differences from BotNS. Spoilers by those who have read it are welcome.\n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-15T18:35:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mirror Image Freedom", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nFrom a gnostic point of view, order/control in opposition to freedom/chaos \nis found in the\nmetaphors of Apollonian vs. Dionysian aspects of human nature. Apollonian \nbeing the scientific\nmale side and Dionysian being the female (or perhaps hermaphroditic) \nmystical side.\n\n(haven't we seen a conflict between these two approaches in recent debates \nin here? As I mentioned\nin one post, my approach here is seen in an entirely different light when \nI am perceived as female;\ntestosterone levels drop and the alpha male snarling subsides)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That must be the explanation. This \"alpha male snarling\" (i.e. expressions \nof doubt regarding your theories) couldn't possibly be simply an indication \nthat some people find your ideas unconvincing, now, could it?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-15T19:41:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mirror Image Freedom", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn- That must be the explanation. This \"alpha male snarling\" (i.e. expressions \nof doubt regarding your theories) couldn't possibly be simply an indication that some people \nfind your ideas unconvincing, now, could it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nGerry I don't find your posts the best example of alpha dog snarling around here in the past 6 \nyears but if the shoe fits..\n \nYou have strongly asserted that all ideas must be subjected to rigorous testing and evaluation.\nAnd you have presented yourself as the perfect testor and evaluator, a dispassionate, ethereal\ndispenser of objective, rational, logical evaluation. One who is able to correctly assess the\nlikelihood, the mathematical probability of correctness of all ideas presented here.\n \nI myself, do not believe that ideas and the testing of ideas can be somehow divorced from \nthe humanity of the thinker and evaluator. Surely if ideas must be rigorously tested, so must the\nevaluator be tested, yes?\n \nYou have undergone an examination recently. I am pleased to report you seem fully human to me. Nothing\nto be ashamed of there IMHO. You have been proven to not be a computer program. You are driven by factors\nother than pure dispassionate intellect. But perhaps the time has come to stop woofin'.\n \nor in other words...\n \nYou may not always be right but I ain't always wrong ;- ). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<102861AECF4D4B3BA81B2C14ADEA796C@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-16T17:33:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mirror Image Freedom", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn- That must be the explanation. This \"alpha male snarling\" \n(i.e. expressions\nof doubt regarding your theories) couldn't possibly be simply an \nindication that some people\nfind your ideas unconvincing, now, could it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry I don't find your posts the best example of alpha dog snarling \naround here in the past 6\nyears but if the shoe fits..\n\nYou have strongly asserted that all ideas must be subjected to rigorous \ntesting and evaluation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And you have presented yourself as the perfect testor and evaluator, a \ndispassionate, ethereal\ndispenser of objective, rational, logical evaluation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When have I ever presented myself as such? I have indicated that it is \nsomething we should aspire to; I have never stated or implied that I embody \nit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One who is able to correctly assess the\nlikelihood, the mathematical probability of correctness of all ideas \npresented here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would like to think that my assessments are good, but I make no special \nclaim to success. In particular, I make no special claim to authority in \nthis regard. My arguments in favour of are against a particular idea or \ntheory should stand on their own merits, just like yours or anyone else's." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I myself, do not believe that ideas and the testing of ideas can be \nsomehow divorced from\nthe humanity of the thinker and evaluator. Surely if ideas must be \nrigorously tested, so must the\nevaluator be tested, yes?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It rather depends on the nature of the evaluation. If A presents a theory \nand B stamps it 'REJECTED' without explanation, we must certainly take into \naccount or views of B if we are paying heed to the rejection. But if B lays \nout a strong and logical case for rejection, B's character and motives of \nless import. Indeed, we may suspect that A's protests in this regard may \nreflect more on A than on B." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You have undergone an examination recently. I am pleased to report you \nseem fully human to me. Nothing\nto be ashamed of there IMHO. You have been proven to not be a computer \nprogram. You are driven by factors\nother than pure dispassionate intellect. But perhaps the time has come to \nstop woofin'.\n\nor in other words...\n\nYou may not always be right but I ain't always wrong ;- )." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I will continue to express my views regarding theories you or others may \npresent here, just as I hope others will express their views regarding mine. \nIn all cases I would expect such views and theories to be supported or \nchallenged by evidence (principally textual) rather than by special pleading \nand innuendo.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T18:08:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mirror Image Freedom", "in_reply_to": "<102861AECF4D4B3BA81B2C14ADEA796C@jill>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn- If A presents a theory and B stamps it 'REJECTED' without explanation, we must \ncertainly take into account or views of B if we are paying heed to the rejection. But if B lays \nout a strong and logical case for rejection, B's character and motives of less import. Indeed, we may \nsuspect that A's protests in this regard may reflect more on A than on B." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThis is simplistic and biased. You clearly see yourself in the role of B. Only A is seen as capable of\nego-related bias, never B. You just won't recognize that what seems \"strong and logical\" to you is not \nseen that way by every other person." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I will continue to express my views regarding theories you or others may present here, just as I hope \nothers will express their views regarding mine. In all cases I would expect such views and theories to \nbe supported or challenged by evidence (principally textual) rather than by special pleading and innuendo." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYour \"God and Christ are in the Sun Series\" theory is a good example. To you, that theory is based on strong\ntextual evidence. Yet I can see your mental edits, resulting in the deletion of texual mentions of so many\nother gods, many by name. You don't want them so aren't there. But Christ is wanted, so you include him in \nthe story based on flimsy evidence which is as good an example of \"pleading and inuendo\" as there can be.\n \nNormally I would not use such patronising language to express doubt regarding someone else's valued, long-\nconsidered personal interpretations. I only use it here to illustrate what it is like to be criticized by\nGerry Quinn.\n \n \nI would never suggest you stop expressing your views. Nor do I expect you to change the unctuous tone\nthat creeps into your posts. You are who you are. The best I can hope is that you become aware of it. I'll\nleave it at that. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<2713B621B74D4E56A1AF8E21FECFB7D7@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-16T19:25:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mirror Image Freedom", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn- If A presents a theory and B stamps it 'REJECTED' without \nexplanation, we must\ncertainly take into account or views of B if we are paying heed to the \nrejection. But if B lays\nout a strong and logical case for rejection, B's character and motives of \nless import. Indeed, we may\nsuspect that A's protests in this regard may reflect more on A than on B." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is simplistic and biased. You clearly see yourself in the role of B. \nOnly A is seen as capable of\nego-related bias, never B. You just won't recognize that what seems \n\"strong and logical\" to you is not\nseen that way by every other person." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Far from it. In the case of the Antechamber, for example, I am clearly in \nthe position of A, whereas David Stockhoff, in particular, is in trhe \nposition of B. I don't whimper and question his motives and attempt to \npyschoanalyse him. I answer his points as best I can and try to come up \nwith better ones of my own." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I will continue to express my views regarding theories you or others may \npresent here, just as I hope\nothers will express their views regarding mine. In all cases I would \nexpect such views and theories to\nbe supported or challenged by evidence (principally textual) rather than \nby special pleading and innuendo." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Your \"God and Christ are in the Sun Series\" theory is a good example. To \nyou, that theory is based on strong\ntextual evidence. Yet I can see your mental edits, resulting in the \ndeletion of texual mentions of so many\nother gods, many by name. You don't want them so aren't there. But Christ \nis wanted, so you include him in\nthe story based on flimsy evidence which is as good an example of \n\"pleading and inuendo\" as there can be." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've accepted without demur that Dionysus is mentioned, which I had not \nnoticed before. I have tended to refer to Jesus rather than Christ, as the \ntext is explicit there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Normally I would not use such patronising language to express doubt \nregarding someone else's valued, long-\nconsidered personal interpretations. I only use it here to illustrate what \nit is like to be criticized by\nGerry Quinn." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can only hope you will learn to criticise like Gerry Quinn. You could \nmake a start by including more references to the text and fewer personal \nattacks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would never suggest you stop expressing your views. Nor do I expect you \nto change the unctuous tone\nthat creeps into your posts. You are who you are. The best I can hope is \nthat you become aware of it. I'll\nleave it at that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It makes me laugh when you refer to 'patronising language' and 'unctuous \ntones'.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0A6A6A.2050305@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T19:37:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mirror Image Freedom", "in_reply_to": "<2713B621B74D4E56A1AF8E21FECFB7D7@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It makes me laugh when you refer to 'patronising language' and \n'unctuous tones'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He laughed unctuously." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T19:52:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mirror Image Freedom", "in_reply_to": "<4D0A6A6A.2050305@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn- I can only hope you will learn to criticise like Gerry Quinn. You could make a \nstart by including more references to the text and fewer personal attacks." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI don't know you personally, Gerry. Any criticism I have of you is based purely on your writing.\n \nBy your definition, wouldn't calling someone else's expression of heartfelt feelings as \"whimpering\" \nbe a personal attack?\n \nNot really interested in lessons of that sort. Sorry. My references to the text are numerous and \nsubstantial, as you would know if you read them. Your assessment of my lack of references is based on \nalpha dog snarling not reality. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It makes me laugh when you refer to 'patronising language' and 'unctuous tones'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What is your purpose in telling me this? So I can, in a sense, \"hear\" your laughter?\n \n \nLee Berman is also wondering what personality trait is implied by referring to one's self in third person. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<8C9A9C5E-BD47-4141-8582-31DAE8F4B572@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-16T20:10:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mirror Image Freedom", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm gonna say it for everybody...\n\nGive it a rest, guys, you have made your points over and over and now it's time to move away from the discussions about the discussion.\n\nBoth Lee and Gerry are making excellent contributions aside from this sniping bullshit.\nJust leave it alone already.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 16, 2010, at 11:52 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn- I can only hope you will learn to criticise like Gerry Quinn. You could make a \nstart by including more references to the text and fewer personal attacks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know you personally, Gerry. Any criticism I have of you is based purely on your writing.\n\nBy your definition, wouldn't calling someone else's expression of heartfelt feelings as \"whimpering\" \nbe a personal attack?\n\nNot really interested in lessons of that sort. Sorry. My references to the text are numerous and \nsubstantial, as you would know if you read them. Your assessment of my lack of references is based on \nalpha dog snarling not reality. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It makes me laugh when you refer to 'patronising language' and 'unctuous tones'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What is your purpose in telling me this? So I can, in a sense, \"hear\" your laughter?\n\n\nLee Berman is also wondering what personality trait is implied by referring to one's self in third person. \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T20:11:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mirror Image Freedom", "in_reply_to": "<8C9A9C5E-BD47-4141-8582-31DAE8F4B572@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "+1" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Son of Witz\n wrote:\n\nI'm gonna say it for everybody...\n\nGive it a rest, guys, you have made your points over and over and now it's time to move away from the discussions about the discussion.\n\nBoth Lee and Gerry are making excellent contributions aside from this sniping bullshit.\nJust leave it alone already.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T20:24:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mirror Image Freedom", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son o' Witz- I'm gonna say it for everybody...Give it a rest, guys" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l- +1" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nOh, you guys. Gerry and I have been having a lot of fun with this. But, once\nit expressly becomes an annoyance to others, well...that needs to be it. All \nfun things must come to an end. And with apologies to all for the annoyance and \nthanks for indulging the gladiators for as long as y'all did. \n \n:- ) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<466A42AD-2EAA-4C1B-9EF9-04D0800D07CB@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-16T20:36:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mirror Image Freedom", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 16, 2010, at 12:24 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Son o' Witz- I'm gonna say it for everybody...Give it a rest, guys" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l- +1" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh, you guys. Gerry and I have been having a lot of fun with this. But, once\nit expressly becomes an annoyance to others, well...that needs to be it. All \nfun things must come to an end. And with apologies to all for the annoyance and \nthanks for indulging the gladiators for as long as y'all did. \n\n:- ) \n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Like I said, I enjoy the hell out of both of your posts when they are on topic." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-16T20:49:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mirror Image Freedom", "in_reply_to": "<8C9A9C5E-BD47-4141-8582-31DAE8F4B572@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Will try ;)\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n----- Original Message ----- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Son of Witz\" \nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSent: Thursday, December 16, 2010 8:10 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Mirror Image Freedom\n\nI'm gonna say it for everybody...\n\nGive it a rest, guys, you have made your points over and over and now it's \ntime to move away from the discussions about the discussion.\n\nBoth Lee and Gerry are making excellent contributions aside from this \nsniping bullshit.\nJust leave it alone already.\n\n~witz\n\nOn Dec 16, 2010, at 11:52 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gerry Quinn- I can only hope you will learn to criticise like Gerry \nQuinn. You could make a\nstart by including more references to the text and fewer personal \nattacks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't know you personally, Gerry. Any criticism I have of you is based \npurely on your writing.\n\nBy your definition, wouldn't calling someone else's expression of \nheartfelt feelings as \"whimpering\"\nbe a personal attack?\n\nNot really interested in lessons of that sort. Sorry. My references to \nthe text are numerous and\nsubstantial, as you would know if you read them. Your assessment of my \nlack of references is based on\nalpha dog snarling not reality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It makes me laugh when you refer to 'patronising language' and 'unctuous \ntones'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What is your purpose in telling me this? So I can, in a sense, \"hear\" \nyour laughter?\n\n\nLee Berman is also wondering what personality trait is implied by \nreferring to one's self in third person.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<966688.9211.qm@web58205.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-18T15:51:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) jungle hut jesus", "in_reply_to": "<466A42AD-2EAA-4C1B-9EF9-04D0800D07CB@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One more point, all this talk of an \"unknown\" christ in Severian's Universe just seems wrong, wrong, very wrong. Even though Severian was later conflated with the Conciliator, those early descriptions of the Conciliator are so Christlike as to be absurd, and the jungle hut with those missionaries seems like, you know, such an obvious reference not to a Conciliator but to a Christian missionary system, in our universe.\nMarc\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<2B06A733-1F9A-4544-82B4-54CBB3F65879@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-18T16:38:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) jungle hut jesus", "in_reply_to": "<966688.9211.qm@web58205.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 18, 2010, at 7:51 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\nOne more point, all this talk of an \"unknown\" christ in Severian's Universe just seems wrong, wrong, very wrong. Even though Severian was later conflated with the Conciliator, those early descriptions of the Conciliator are so Christlike as to be absurd, and the jungle hut with those missionaries seems like, you know, such an obvious reference not to a Conciliator but to a Christian missionary system, in our universe.\nMarc" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah.\nAgain, it seems sooooooooo obvious I can't believe it is controversial." } ] }, { "message_id": "<399023.62456.qm@web37604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-18T17:04:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) jungle hut jesus", "in_reply_to": "<2B06A733-1F9A-4544-82B4-54CBB3F65879@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Jungle Hut Jesus\" ... band name?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0D06FF.9010009@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-18T19:09:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) jungle hut jesus", "in_reply_to": "<966688.9211.qm@web58205.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's exactly what it is: an obvious reference not to a Conciliator but \nto a Christian missionary system, in our universe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/18/2010 10:51 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\nOne more point, all this talk of an \"unknown\" christ in Severian's \nUniverse just seems wrong, wrong, very wrong. Even though Severian \nwas later conflated with the Conciliator, those early descriptions of \nthe Conciliator are so Christlike as to be absurd, and the jungle hut \nwith those missionaries seems like, you know, such an obvious \nreference not to a Conciliator but to a Christian missionary system, \nin our universe.\nMarc\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-18T21:44:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) jungle hut jesus", "in_reply_to": "<4D0D06FF.9010009@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: >One more point, all this talk of an \"unknown\" christ in Severian's \nUniverse just seems wrong, wrong, very wrong. Even though Severian \nwas later conflated with the Conciliator, those early descriptions of \nthe Conciliator are so Christlike as to be absurd, and the jungle hut \nwith those missionaries seems like, you know, such an obvious \nreference not to a Conciliator but to a Christian missionary system, \nin our universe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: That's exactly what it is: an obvious reference not to a Conciliator but \nto a Christian missionary system, in our universe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nChristian missionaries who have been put on display at a zoo and rendered somewhat ridiculous\nin their speech and behavior.\n \nI think this is an example of starting with a conclusion and then finding the evidence which \nsupports it. Not excluding myself from the process. If the conclusion is that our Jesus is present\nin BotNS, the ambiguous evidence will be seen as supporting it.\n \nOnce my conclusion that this is a gnostic, non-Christ universe hit me, all the evidence for the\nexistence of Jesus Christ seemed turned to the opposite; evidence against him in this universe.\n \nFor me, we have BotNS Flood but it isn't our Flood. We have a BotNS Typhon but he isn't our Typhon.\nMy default assumption becomes that the BotNS Jesus isn't our Jesus. Might have gotten buried,\nbut earlier I built an argument for how the \"scourger\" in the Long Sun legend could refer to Severian.\n \nI think we must all admit that our chosen conclusion shapes how we see the evidence. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0D7E42.9080502@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-19T03:38:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) jungle hut jesus", "in_reply_to": "<2B06A733-1F9A-4544-82B4-54CBB3F65879@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/18/2010 10:38 AM, Son of Witz wrote:\n\n\nOn Dec 18, 2010, at 7:51 AM, Marc Aramini > wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "One more point, all this talk of an \"unknown\" christ in Severian's\nUniverse just seems wrong, wrong, very wrong. Even though Severian was\nlater conflated with the Conciliator, those early descriptions of the\nConciliator are so Christlike as to be absurd, and the jungle hut with\nthose missionaries seems like, you know, such an obvious reference not\nto a Conciliator but to a Christian missionary system, in our universe.\nMarc" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yeah.\nAgain, it seems sooooooooo obvious I can't believe it is controversial." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought it had already been suggested that Christianity had died out \non Urth\ncirca the First Empire and never came back, rendering it effectively \nunknown to the Commonwealth." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] } ] }