{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5825", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5825, "subject": "(no subject)", "messages": 30, "voices": 8, "first": "2010-12-15T19:14:16+00:00", "last": "2010-12-17T01:27:46+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-15T19:14:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I don't think there's any special reason to think Severian's universe is \nwithout a Christ. There is substantial evidence that it's history is similar to ours. \nIn BotLS there are notable religious references, including some to Christ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nJerry recently cited Wolfe interviews which explicity say it. Special? Not special? Jerry\nis wrong?\n \nThe \"similar history\" is explained by the same principle as the similar (but not identical)\ngeography of Urth to our Earth. Wolfe says he conceives of Briah as a different universe than ours, \na previous iteration.\n \nI think it is more accurate to say Long Sun has religious references to a Jesus-like character.\nNothing about salvation is mentioned, that I know of. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-15T19:26:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI think it is more accurate to say Long Sun has religious references to a Jesus-like character.\nNothing about salvation is mentioned, that I know of." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As mentioned elsewhere, to describe Jesus as \"enlightened and\npossessed by the Outsider\" would be hideously incorrect theology.\nHowever, such a description might well address the problem of His\nhaving an analogue in the Briahtic universe." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<02C2B026-6249-480C-AF14-8E66DB151D41@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-15T21:23:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 15, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I don't think there's any special reason to think Severian's universe is \nwithout a Christ. There is substantial evidence that it's history is similar to ours. \nIn BotLS there are notable religious references, including some to Christ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry recently cited Wolfe interviews which explicity say it. Special? Not special? Jerry\nis wrong?\n\nThe \"similar history\" is explained by the same principle as the similar (but not identical)\ngeography of Urth to our Earth. Wolfe says he conceives of Briah as a different universe than ours, \na previous iteration.\n\nI think it is more accurate to say Long Sun has religious references to a Jesus-like character.\nNothing about salvation is mentioned, that I know of. \n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wait. There is a very unambiguous salvation metaphor here.\nThe Whorl is a sort of gnotic false creation with a false pantheon. God sends his healing energy, Logos- Christ the physician - the Outsider to usher them out of the false creation into a new world free of the Demiurgos of the Whorl, Pas. How much clearer could the salvation metaphor be? The humanity of the whorl has no future if they don't leave it. The outsider saved them, acting through silk, who was enlightened, not posessed by the Outsider.\n\nMan Lee, you should read Phillip K. Dick's VALIS and Divine Invasion for some great sci-fi permutations of this idea if you haven't already.\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<52512.11943.qm@web84107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-15T21:29:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<02C2B026-6249-480C-AF14-8E66DB151D41@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I assume Lee refers to salvation-after-death.\n\n--- On Wed, 12/15/10, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) (no subject)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, December 15, 2010, 4:23 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 15, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I don't think there's any special reason to think Severian's universe is \nwithout a Christ. There is substantial evidence that it's history is similar to ours. \nIn BotLS there are notable religious references, including some to Christ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry recently cited Wolfe interviews which explicity say it. Special? Not special? Jerry\nis wrong?\n\nThe \"similar history\" is explained by the same principle as the similar (but not identical)\ngeography of Urth to our Earth. Wolfe says he conceives of Briah as a different universe than ours, \na previous iteration.\n\nI think it is more accurate to say Long Sun has religious references to a Jesus-like character.\nNothing about salvation is mentioned, that I know of. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wait. There is a very unambiguous salvation metaphor here.\nThe Whorl is a sort of gnotic false creation with a false pantheon. God sends his healing energy, Logos- Christ the physician - the Outsider to usher them out of the false creation into a new world free of the Demiurgos of the Whorl, Pas. How much clearer could the salvation metaphor be? The humanity of the whorl has no future if they don't leave it. The outsider saved them, acting through silk, who was enlightened, not posessed by the Outsider.\n\nMan Lee, you should read Phillip K. Dick's VALIS and Divine Invasion for some great sci-fi permutations of this idea if you haven't already.\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D35F4794AE94278BA718E442C77D355@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-16T16:14:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nGerry Quinn: I don't think there's any special reason to think Severian's \nuniverse is\nwithout a Christ. There is substantial evidence that it's history is \nsimilar to ours.\nIn BotLS there are notable religious references, including some to Christ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry recently cited Wolfe interviews which explicity say it. Special? Not \nspecial? Jerry\nis wrong?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IIRC, in the interviews Wolfe said that he was playing with the idea of \ncyclic universes. He suggested the idea was not fully formed. And I don't \nrecall him ever suggesting that Severian's iteration had no Jesus Christ. \nIndeed, there is substantial evidence that it had." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The \"similar history\" is explained by the same principle as the similar \n(but not identical)\ngeography of Urth to our Earth. Wolfe says he conceives of Briah as a \ndifferent universe than ours,\na previous iteration.\n\nI think it is more accurate to say Long Sun has religious references to a \nJesus-like character.\nNothing about salvation is mentioned, that I know of." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that this aspect of Christian doctrine is not mentioned, but the \nobvious reason is that Wolfe's cosmogony is complex enough without it! \nAlso, I think it plausible that Wolfe believes salvation might be attained \nby means other than the Incarnation, particularly in a hypothethical \nuniverse where Jesus did not exist. So I don't see the necessity for making \ngreat interpretational leaps just because it is not mentioned.\n\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "<05F9EC1D86004D46900BDA6F24C9EA3E@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-16T16:18:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \nOn Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Lee Berman \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think it is more accurate to say Long Sun has religious references to a \nJesus-like character.\nNothing about salvation is mentioned, that I know of." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As mentioned elsewhere, to describe Jesus as \"enlightened and\npossessed by the Outsider\" would be hideously incorrect theology.\nHowever, such a description might well address the problem of His\nhaving an analogue in the Briahtic universe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But is it not exactly the interpretation that would spring to the mind of an \naugur in Silk's hideously incorrect religion?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T16:57:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<05F9EC1D86004D46900BDA6F24C9EA3E@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 8:18 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nFrom: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As mentioned elsewhere, to describe Jesus as \"enlightened and\npossessed by the Outsider\" would be hideously incorrect theology.\nHowever, such a description might well address the problem of His\nhaving an analogue in the Briahtic universe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But is it not exactly the interpretation that would spring to the mind of an\naugur in Silk's hideously incorrect religion?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I believe that is correct." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0A45DC.80902@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-16T17:01:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<4D35F4794AE94278BA718E442C77D355@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why is it a great leap?\n\nEither other paths of salvation exist, or they do not. I have never \nheard of any such, except that many have commented that heathens may \nattain grace and thus be considered eligible. Generally, Christians \nspeak of \"Salvation through Jesus Christ Our Lord amen etc.\"\n\nBut the Son came here for the express purpose of salvation. If he \ndoesn't show up, then all we are left with is grace---and Severian seems \nto attain some version of that.\n\nNo leap at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/16/2010 11:14 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The \"similar history\" is explained by the same principle as the \nsimilar (but not identical)\ngeography of Urth to our Earth. Wolfe says he conceives of Briah as a \ndifferent universe than ours,\na previous iteration.\n\nI think it is more accurate to say Long Sun has religious references \nto a Jesus-like character.\nNothing about salvation is mentioned, that I know of." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree that this aspect of Christian doctrine is not mentioned, but \nthe obvious reason is that Wolfe's cosmogony is complex enough without \nit! Also, I think it plausible that Wolfe believes salvation might be \nattained by means other than the Incarnation, particularly in a \nhypothethical universe where Jesus did not exist. So I don't see the \nnecessity for making great interpretational leaps just because it is \nnot mentioned. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<9584549FDDAE461C89DC49B5A1F65AA7@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-16T18:36:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<4D0A45DC.80902@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"David Stockhoff\" \nWhy is it a great leap?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To start with, because to assume something not mentioned in a text must \ntherefore not exist in the universe of that text is a leap." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Either other paths of salvation exist, or they do not. I have never heard \nof any such, except that many have commented that heathens may attain \ngrace and thus be considered eligible. Generally, Christians speak of \n\"Salvation through Jesus Christ Our Lord amen etc.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You have not heard of any... except insofar as you have!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But the Son came here for the express purpose of salvation. If he doesn't \nshow up, then all we are left with is grace---and Severian seems to attain \nsome version of that.\n\nNo leap at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The existence of grace implies the non-existence of salvation?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/16/2010 11:14 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The \"similar history\" is explained by the same principle as the similar \n(but not identical)\ngeography of Urth to our Earth. Wolfe says he conceives of Briah as a \ndifferent universe than ours,\na previous iteration.\n\nI think it is more accurate to say Long Sun has religious references to \na Jesus-like character.\nNothing about salvation is mentioned, that I know of." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I agree that this aspect of Christian doctrine is not mentioned, but the \nobvious reason is that Wolfe's cosmogony is complex enough without it! \nAlso, I think it plausible that Wolfe believes salvation might be \nattained by means other than the Incarnation, particularly in a \nhypothethical universe where Jesus did not exist. So I don't see the \nnecessity for making great interpretational leaps just because it is not \nmentioned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 101216-0, 12/16/2010\nTested on: 12/16/2010 12:01:16 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0A625A.5060807@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-16T19:02:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<9584549FDDAE461C89DC49B5A1F65AA7@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I tried to specifically state, grace is not salvation but rather a \nconsolation prize for nonbelievers. Let's let the theologians parse \nthat. But for you to insist that salvation exists \"just because\" is \nworse than a leap." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/16/2010 1:36 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"David Stockhoff\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why is it a great leap?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To start with, because to assume something not mentioned in a text \nmust therefore not exist in the universe of that text is a leap." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Either other paths of salvation exist, or they do not. I have never \nheard of any such, except that many have commented that heathens may \nattain grace and thus be considered eligible. Generally, Christians \nspeak of \"Salvation through Jesus Christ Our Lord amen etc.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You have not heard of any... except insofar as you have!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But the Son came here for the express purpose of salvation. If he \ndoesn't show up, then all we are left with is grace---and Severian \nseems to attain some version of that.\n\nNo leap at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The existence of grace implies the non-existence of salvation?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0A62CD.2080204@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T19:04:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman-\nI think it is more accurate to say Long Sun has religious references to a Jesus-like character.\nNothing about salvation is mentioned, that I know of. \t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A very, very Jesus-like character. Complete with driving out \nmoney-changers with a whip, being equivalent with God**, and being \nnailed to a cross (scaffolding). Such a Jesus without salvation is like \nThyone without Dionysus.\n\n**If Silk spoke to the possessed Chenille as though she were Kypris, \nthen one possessed AND enlightened by the Outsider--knowing is far more \nequivalent.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<424AF04E-D90A-4970-B6D1-E0E4DB231B05@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-16T19:08:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<4D0A625A.5060807@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess then, that you feel there is no possible salvation but through Jesus Christ?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 16, 2010, at 11:02 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nAs I tried to specifically state, grace is not salvation but rather a consolation prize for nonbelievers. Let's let the theologians parse that. But for you to insist that salvation exists \"just because\" is worse than a leap.\n\n\n\nOn 12/16/2010 1:36 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"David Stockhoff\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Why is it a great leap?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To start with, because to assume something not mentioned in a text must therefore not exist in the universe of that text is a leap." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Either other paths of salvation exist, or they do not. I have never heard of any such, except that many have commented that heathens may attain grace and thus be considered eligible. Generally, Christians speak of \"Salvation through Jesus Christ Our Lord amen etc.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You have not heard of any... except insofar as you have!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But the Son came here for the express purpose of salvation. If he doesn't show up, then all we are left with is grace---and Severian seems to attain some version of that.\n\nNo leap at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The existence of grace implies the non-existence of salvation?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 101216-0, 12/16/2010\nTested on: 12/16/2010 2:02:51 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0A655E.2000708@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-16T19:15:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<424AF04E-D90A-4970-B6D1-E0E4DB231B05@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, it's not a concern of mine, so I'm trying to stick with what I \nunderstand as the technical definition.\n\nYes, but with a loophole for really good pagans. ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/16/2010 2:08 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nI guess then, that you feel there is no possible salvation but through Jesus Christ?\n\nOn Dec 16, 2010, at 11:02 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As I tried to specifically state, grace is not salvation but rather a consolation prize for nonbelievers. Let's let the theologians parse that. But for you to insist that salvation exists \"just because\" is worse than a leap." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-16T19:38:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<4D0A625A.5060807@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"David Stockhoff\" \nAs I tried to specifically state, grace is not salvation but rather a \nconsolation prize for nonbelievers. Let's let the theologians parse that. \nBut for you to insist that salvation exists \"just because\" is worse than a \nleap." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We have evidence for the existence of Jesus. We have no evidence for any \ndifference between the Jesus of this universe (if different universe it is) \nand our own.\n\nIt seems to me that the leap is to assume a difference.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/16/2010 1:36 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"David Stockhoff\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Why is it a great leap?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To start with, because to assume something not mentioned in a text must \ntherefore not exist in the universe of that text is a leap." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Either other paths of salvation exist, or they do not. I have never \nheard of any such, except that many have commented that heathens may \nattain grace and thus be considered eligible. Generally, Christians \nspeak of \"Salvation through Jesus Christ Our Lord amen etc.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You have not heard of any... except insofar as you have!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But the Son came here for the express purpose of salvation. If he \ndoesn't show up, then all we are left with is grace---and Severian seems \nto attain some version of that.\n\nNo leap at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The existence of grace implies the non-existence of salvation?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 101216-0, 12/16/2010\nTested on: 12/16/2010 2:02:51 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7BBB17B2-BC8A-48B9-AB2B-FF56AA024D0C@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-16T19:41:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<4D0A655E.2000708@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have to say I don't see the sense in projecting that interpretation of paths to salvation if you don't believe in them. For me, I think salvation is possible without Jesus. I think Jesus meant something completely different than the common interpretation of \"None come to the father but through me\" or however the quote reads. So, no Jesus shouldn't imply no salvation. Not even all Christians believe theirs is an exclusive path." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 16, 2010, at 11:15 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nWell, it's not a concern of mine, so I'm trying to stick with what I understand as the technical definition.\n\nYes, but with a loophole for really good pagans. ;)\n\nOn 12/16/2010 2:08 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I guess then, that you feel there is no possible salvation but through Jesus Christ?\n\nOn Dec 16, 2010, at 11:02 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "As I tried to specifically state, grace is not salvation but rather a consolation prize for nonbelievers. Let's let the theologians parse that. But for you to insist that salvation exists \"just because\" is worse than a leap." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 101216-0, 12/16/2010\nTested on: 12/16/2010 2:15:42 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0A9121.9090303@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-16T22:22:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now you're making things up. First, what evidence? Second, what \ndifference are you talking about?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/16/2010 2:38 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nAs I tried to specifically state, grace is not salvation but rather a \nconsolation prize for nonbelievers. Let's let the theologians parse \nthat. But for you to insist that salvation exists \"just because\" is \nworse than a leap." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We have evidence for the existence of Jesus. We have no evidence for \nany difference between the Jesus of this universe (if different \nuniverse it is) and our own.\n\nIt seems to me that the leap is to assume a difference.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0A917D.4000200@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-16T22:23:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<7BBB17B2-BC8A-48B9-AB2B-FF56AA024D0C@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Better check with the theologians on that. Here, Wolfe's probable \nbeliefs must trump our own." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/16/2010 2:41 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nI have to say I don't see the sense in projecting that interpretation of paths to salvation if you don't believe in them. For me, I think salvation is possible without Jesus. I think Jesus meant something completely different than the common interpretation of \"None come to the father but through me\" or however the quote reads. So, no Jesus shouldn't imply no salvation. Not even all Christians believe theirs is an exclusive path.\n\nOn Dec 16, 2010, at 11:15 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, it's not a concern of mine, so I'm trying to stick with what I understand as the technical definition.\n\nYes, but with a loophole for really good pagans. ;)\n\nOn 12/16/2010 2:08 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I guess then, that you feel there is no possible salvation but through Jesus Christ?\n\nOn Dec 16, 2010, at 11:02 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "palaeologos at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T22:36:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<4D0A917D.4000200@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If I may (as one who does theology from time to time)...\n\nI'm trying to understand the sense in which David is using the term\n\"grace\". I find it difficult to separate from the concept of salvation,\nbecause salvation is only possible through grace. In other words, it is by\nthe grace of God that we are saved, not through any striving of our own\n(although obviously we need to respond to that grace in some way).\n\nChristians believe that salvation comes only through Jesus Christ. This is\nnot to say that Jews, Muslims, virtuous pagans, etc cannot be saved; it is,\nhowever, to say that whether they are aware of it or not, it is Jesus who\nsaves them. Salvation consists in being freed from the just consequences of\nour sins, due to the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. We are no longer\nsubject to punishment for our misdeeds, because Another has taken that\npunishment on our behalf. The word \"grace\" denotes that this is a gift, not\nsomething we are expected to earn; our good works are not a means of winning\nthis gift, but a natural response of gratitude--you could say \"thank-you\nnotes to God\" if it doesn't make you want to throw up. (NB : I am aware\nthat ultramontane Catholicism and five-point Calvinism alike will find\npoints of disagreement in this paragraph)\n\nGrace in the Christian sense doesn't seem to have existed before Christ's\npassion and resurrection. The Torah seems to embody an accountant's\napproach to morality, with each transgression appearing in the debit column\nand requiring the sacrifice of a corresponding asset. In comparison, the\nsacrifice of Christ is a general debt amnesty, a super-Jubilee if you will.\n\nI hope this clarifies rather than muddies. If the latter case obtains, feel\nfree to ignore!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 2:23 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nBetter check with the theologians on that. Here, Wolfe's probable beliefs\nmust trump our own.\n\nOn 12/16/2010 2:41 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have to say I don't see the sense in projecting that interpretation of\npaths to salvation if you don't believe in them. For me, I think salvation\nis possible without Jesus. I think Jesus meant something completely\ndifferent than the common interpretation of \"None come to the father but\nthrough me\" or however the quote reads. So, no Jesus shouldn't imply no\nsalvation. Not even all Christians believe theirs is an exclusive path.\n\nOn Dec 16, 2010, at 11:15 AM, David Stockhoff\n wrote:\n\n Well, it's not a concern of mine, so I'm trying to stick with what I\nunderstand as the technical definition." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yes, but with a loophole for really good pagans. ;)\n\nOn 12/16/2010 2:08 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I guess then, that you feel there is no possible salvation but through\nJesus Christ?\n\n\nOn Dec 16, 2010, at 11:02 AM, David Stockhoff\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 101216-1, 12/16/2010\nTested on: 12/16/2010 5:23:57 PM\n\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "palaeologos at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T22:43:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<4D0A9121.9090303@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As far as evidence is concerned, the same sort of evidence exists for Jesus\nas exists for Socrates. There doesn't seem to be any good reason to assume\nhe didn't exist, unless such an assumption is necessary to validate a\ndistaste for Christianity (or religion in general)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 2:22 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nNow you're making things up. First, what evidence? Second, what difference\nare you talking about?\n\nOn 12/16/2010 2:38 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As I tried to specifically state, grace is not salvation but rather a\nconsolation prize for nonbelievers. Let's let the theologians parse that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But for you to insist that salvation exists \"just because\" is worse than a\nleap." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We have evidence for the existence of Jesus. We have no evidence for any\ndifference between the Jesus of this universe (if different universe it is)\nand our own.\n\nIt seems to me that the leap is to assume a difference.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 101216-1, 12/16/2010\nTested on: 12/16/2010 5:22:25 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T22:47:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 2:36 PM, Matthew Weber wrote:\n\nA bunch of good stuff with which I take mild exception only to this\none paragraph." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Grace in the Christian sense doesn't seem to have existed before Christ's\npassion and resurrection. The Torah seems to embody an accountant's\napproach to morality, with each transgression appearing in the debit column\nand requiring the sacrifice of a corresponding asset. In comparison, the\nsacrifice of Christ is a general debt amnesty, a super-Jubilee if you will." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "1) Grace existed before Christ's passion and resurrection, but it did\nso as a result of Christ's passion and resurrection. Grace always\nalready can be extended to the \"virtuous pagan\" as well as people like\nMoses, Elijah, etc.\n\n2) I'm of Jewish descent, and if I were a practicing Jew (rather than\na rather poorly practicing Catholic) I would take strong offense at\nyour characterization of the Torah. That is a Christian's view of the\nTorah, but not a Jew's.\n\n3) Your soteriology is one common model but not the only one." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "palaeologos at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T22:51:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 2:47 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 2:36 PM, Matthew Weber \nwrote:\n\nA bunch of good stuff with which I take mild exception only to this\none paragraph." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Grace in the Christian sense doesn't seem to have existed before Christ's\npassion and resurrection. The Torah seems to embody an accountant's\napproach to morality, with each transgression appearing in the debit\ncolumn\nand requiring the sacrifice of a corresponding asset. In comparison, the\nsacrifice of Christ is a general debt amnesty, a super-Jubilee if you\nwill." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1) Grace existed before Christ's passion and resurrection, but it did\nso as a result of Christ's passion and resurrection. Grace always\nalready can be extended to the \"virtuous pagan\" as well as people like\nMoses, Elijah, etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To be sure, they weren't punished, but they weren't redeemed either--at\nleast not until the Harrowing of Hell, no?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) I'm of Jewish descent, and if I were a practicing Jew (rather than\na rather poorly practicing Catholic) I would take strong offense at\nyour characterization of the Torah. That is a Christian's view of the\nTorah, but not a Jew's." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not since the end of the Second Temple, certainly. Point taken." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3) Your soteriology is one common model but not the only one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure--there are at least 3 other models that I can think of in the\nCappadocian Fathers, but PSA is the most commonly encountered one in the\nWest. And since I was writing a short response rather than a book... :)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Matt +\n\nLet each man pass his days in that wherein his skill is greatest.\n Sextus Propertius (54 B.C.-A.D. 2), Elegies, II, i, 46" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0A9925.3000703@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T22:56:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " 2) I'm of Jewish descent, and if I were a practicing Jew (rather than\n a rather poorly practicing Catholic) I would take strong offense at\n your characterization of the Torah. That is a Christian's view of the\n Torah, but not a Jew's.\n\n\nNot since the end of the Second Temple, certainly. Point taken." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I took Matthew's post to be speaking from the POV of a Christian \ntheology to the exclusion of others.\nAlbeit, it must be admitted that his characterization was originally \ndefined by Jews who happened to believe that Jesus was the Jewish \npromised savior.\n\nAnd, as I was instructed by an Orthodox Jew, modern Judaism was born in \nthe 2nd century to continue Jewish traditions in absence of a Temple and \nin conscious response to Christians.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "palaeologos at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T23:03:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<4D0A9925.3000703@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 2:56 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2) I'm of Jewish descent, and if I were a practicing Jew (rather than\na rather poorly practicing Catholic) I would take strong offense at\nyour characterization of the Torah. That is a Christian's view of the\nTorah, but not a Jew's." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not since the end of the Second Temple, certainly. Point taken.\n\n\nI took Matthew's post to be speaking from the POV of a Christian theology\nto the exclusion of others.\nAlbeit, it must be admitted that his characterization was originally\ndefined by Jews who happened to believe that Jesus was the Jewish promised\nsavior.\n\nAnd, as I was instructed by an Orthodox Jew, modern Judaism was born in the\n2nd century to continue Jewish traditions in absence of a Temple and in\nconscious response to Christians." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's funny; I was just thinking (after reading Dan'l's response) the same\nthing--that modern Judaism has been unalterably conditioned by the loss of\nthe Temple and the dominance of Christianity. The destruction of the Temple\ncertainly put paid to the Sadducees; today's rabbinical tradition is a\ndirect descendant of the Pharasaical party which gets such a bad rap in the\nGospels." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Matt +\n\nLet each man pass his days in that wherein his skill is greatest.\n Sextus Propertius (54 B.C.-A.D. 2), Elegies, II, i, 46" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T23:09:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Matthew Weber wrote:\n1) Grace existed before Christ's passion and resurrection, but it did\nso as a result of Christ's passion and resurrection. Grace always\nalready can be extended to the \"virtuous pagan\" as well as people like\nMoses, Elijah, etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To be sure, they weren't punished, but they weren't redeemed either--at\nleast not until the Harrowing of Hell, no?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this is an error as you are applying \"before\" and \"after\" to\nstates in Eternity, outside of Time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "3) Your soteriology is one common model but not the only one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure--there are at least 3 other models that I can think of in the\nCappadocian Fathers, but PSA is the most commonly encountered one in the\nWest. And since I was writing a short response rather than a book... :)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess my objection was to your stating it in a manner that sounded\nas if you were describing The Standard Christian Model, when there\n_is_ no Standard Christian Model..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "palaeologos at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T23:14:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Both good points, which I'll concede (I could discuss either at greater\nlength, but I feel I'm already substantially digressing from topic)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 3:09 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Matthew Weber \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "1) Grace existed before Christ's passion and resurrection, but it did\nso as a result of Christ's passion and resurrection. Grace always\nalready can be extended to the \"virtuous pagan\" as well as people like\nMoses, Elijah, etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To be sure, they weren't punished, but they weren't redeemed either--at\nleast not until the Harrowing of Hell, no?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think this is an error as you are applying \"before\" and \"after\" to\nstates in Eternity, outside of Time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "3) Your soteriology is one common model but not the only one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sure--there are at least 3 other models that I can think of in the\nCappadocian Fathers, but PSA is the most commonly encountered one in the\nWest. And since I was writing a short response rather than a book... :)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I guess my objection was to your stating it in a manner that sounded\nas if you were describing The Standard Christian Model, when there\n_is_ no Standard Christian Model...\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<92848d55ec3b5b0f454efe84891fe6a7.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T23:25:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<4D0A917D.4000200@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Better check with the theologians on that. Here, Wolfe's probable\nbeliefs must trump our own." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The concept of \"anonymous Christianity\" is built on the precept that\nChrist's sacrifice is sufficient to save everyone for all times, and that\nHis transcendent grace is not restricted by human ignorance of the gospel.\nThis is held to allow innocent pagans, unbaptized infants, etc. to\nconstructively embrace salvation without exposure to the gospel or the\ncapacity to intellectually comprehend it. There's a sort of darker side to\nit, in that missionaries who bring the good news give people who otherwise\nwouldn't the chance to affirmatively embrace it but also to overtly reject\nit." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T23:40:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Grace in the Christian sense doesn't seem to have existed before Christ's\npassion and resurrection. The Torah seems to embody an accountant's\napproach to morality, with each transgression appearing in the debit\ncolumn\nand requiring the sacrifice of a corresponding asset." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are examples of forgiveness in the Torah, as long as you don't\nequate it with a lack of consequences. All the times that the covenants\nwith G-d were broken, and G-d keeps giving Adam's brood one more chance,\nthen Noah's, then the Israelites. Other Hebrew scriptures record Jonah's\nmany refusals to deliver G-d's judgment to Nineveh and hardships he\nendures shirking his divine duty out of bigotry, but G-d forgives him, and\nthe Ninevites as well when they finally get the judgment." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0AB926.3050804@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-17T01:13:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I thought, my distinction was one without much difference.\n\nIn any case, in my understanding grace was retroactively applied to good \npagans, and the question of the orthodoxy of this application is \nprobably open." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/16/2010 5:36 PM, Matthew Weber wrote:\nIf I may (as one who does theology from time to time)...\n\nI'm trying to understand the sense in which David is using the term \n\"grace\". I find it difficult to separate from the concept of \nsalvation, because salvation is only possible through grace. In other \nwords, it is by the grace of God that we are saved, not through any \nstriving of our own (although obviously we need to respond to that \ngrace in some way).\n\nChristians believe that salvation comes only through Jesus Christ. \nThis is not to say that Jews, Muslims, virtuous pagans, etc cannot be \nsaved; it is, however, to say that whether they are aware of it or \nnot, it is Jesus who saves them. Salvation consists in being freed \nfrom the just consequences of our sins, due to the sacrifice of Christ \non the cross. We are no longer subject to punishment for our \nmisdeeds, because Another has taken that punishment on our behalf. \nThe word \"grace\" denotes that this is a gift, not something we are \nexpected to earn; our good works are not a means of winning this gift, \nbut a natural response of gratitude--you could say \"thank-you notes to \nGod\" if it doesn't make you want to throw up. (NB : I am aware that \nultramontane Catholicism and five-point Calvinism alike will find \npoints of disagreement in this paragraph)\n\nGrace in the Christian sense doesn't seem to have existed before \nChrist's passion and resurrection. The Torah seems to embody an \naccountant's approach to morality, with each transgression appearing \nin the debit column and requiring the sacrifice of a corresponding \nasset. In comparison, the sacrifice of Christ is a general debt \namnesty, a super-Jubilee if you will.\n\nI hope this clarifies rather than muddies. If the latter case \nobtains, feel free to ignore!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0ABA9B.604@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-17T01:19:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And by the same logic, there may have been a dozen of these \npeople---Jesuses, Christs, dud Christs as Gerry says, or full-blown \nmessiahs---that we have forgotten entirely. Almost as though ... they \ndon't exist.\n\nWho now studies Zoroaster?\n\nYou can't talk about Good News no one has heard. Isn't the end the same? \nSalvation is not a concern of a single character in the series. Perhaps \nsomeone who supports the idea of identical \"parallel\" universes should \nexplain this discrepancy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/16/2010 5:43 PM, Matthew Weber wrote:\nAs far as evidence is concerned, the same sort of evidence exists for \nJesus as exists for Socrates. There doesn't seem to be any good \nreason to assume he didn't exist, unless such an assumption is \nnecessary to validate a distaste for Christianity (or religion in \ngeneral).\n\nOn Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 2:22 PM, David Stockhoff \n> wrote:\n\n Now you're making things up. First, what evidence? Second, what\n difference are you talking about?\n\n On 12/16/2010 2:38 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n As I tried to specifically state, grace is not salvation\n but rather a consolation prize for nonbelievers. Let's let\n the theologians parse that. But for you to insist that\n salvation exists \"just because\" is worse than a leap.\n\n\n We have evidence for the existence of Jesus. We have no\n evidence for any difference between the Jesus of this universe\n (if different universe it is) and our own.\n\n It seems to me that the leap is to assume a difference.\n\n - Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0ABC92.6020303@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-17T01:27:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<92848d55ec3b5b0f454efe84891fe6a7.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this issue is a critical point. Certainly something to be \naddressed in discussing whether entire universes may have been left in \nthe dark by chance or intent.\n\nPersonally, I envision infinite universes which are ruthlessly pruned as \nneeded, as Severian drowned Urth, in a process akin to natural \nselection. I understand if this idea is distasteful to some, and I can't \nsupport it from the text even though we know this principle applies to \nlife on Earth.\n\nBut why else would entire races of beings work to uplift one (even the \none that received the Logos), if there were not some background process \nthat was deemed insufficient?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/16/2010 6:25 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nBetter check with the theologians on that. Here, Wolfe's probable\nbeliefs must trump our own." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The concept of \"anonymous Christianity\" is built on the precept that\nChrist's sacrifice is sufficient to save everyone for all times, and that\nHis transcendent grace is not restricted by human ignorance of the gospel.\nThis is held to allow innocent pagans, unbaptized infants, etc. to\nconstructively embrace salvation without exposure to the gospel or the\ncapacity to intellectually comprehend it. There's a sort of darker side to\nit, in that missionaries who bring the good news give people who otherwise\nwouldn't the chance to affirmatively embrace it but also to overtly reject\nit.\n\n_" } ] } ] }