{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5829", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5829, "subject": "(no subject)", "messages": 5, "voices": 3, "first": "2010-12-16T17:23:23+00:00", "last": "2010-12-17T01:01:17+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T17:23:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: So we have both Dionysus and Allah mentioned in similar contexts. Both are \nforgotten (nobody even remembers the name of the son of Thyone), while the Outsider is nearly \nforgotten on the Whorl." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSo if the Outsider is our God, the creator of all universes, then Wolfe is saying that worshippers\nof Allah and Dionysus are all worshipping the same God that Catholics worship. Just differently \nnamed. No quarrel from me, but there might be from others." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There remains the question of Jesus. I think this aspect of the Increate is strongly emphasised in \nthe persona of the Outsider. Allah and Dionysus, not so mucxh." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWell, first you need to distinguish Jesus from Christ. With two universes there is an argument that there\ncan be one without the other. \n \nAllah is mentioned once. Jesus-figures a couple times. Dionysus as Wine God..and other gnostic references \nlike \"Abraxas\" and \"Demiurge\" are mentioned a lot more and a lot more explicitly than those other two in the\nSun series. Methinks your elevation of Jesus above the other two derives not from the text but from your \nsociety/culture." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So I don't see the necessity for making great interpretational leaps just because it is not mentioned." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nGiven your society/culture it may be difficult for you to realize that you are making the great interpretational \nleap by assuming Christ is in the story even though neither he nor salvation is mentioned. Others who do not insert \nChrist into the Sun series are being conservative, parsimonious and more true to the text.\n \n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-16T19:05:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: So we have both Dionysus and Allah mentioned in similar \ncontexts. Both are\nforgotten (nobody even remembers the name of the son of Thyone), while the \nOutsider is nearly\nforgotten on the Whorl." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So if the Outsider is our God, the creator of all universes, then Wolfe is \nsaying that worshippers\nof Allah and Dionysus are all worshipping the same God that Catholics \nworship. Just differently\nnamed. No quarrel from me, but there might be from others." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Insofar as they are worshipping the god of gods, yes. I don't think this is \nespecially theologically controversial, certainly not in the case of Allah." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There remains the question of Jesus. I think this aspect of the Increate \nis strongly emphasised in\nthe persona of the Outsider. Allah and Dionysus, not so mucxh." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, first you need to distinguish Jesus from Christ. With two universes \nthere is an argument that there\ncan be one without the other." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see any grounds in the text for such a distinction. We do see \nevidence for Jesus in the text, and we also see evidence for an aspect of \nthe Outsider that matches the teachings of Jesus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Allah is mentioned once. Jesus-figures a couple times. Dionysus as Wine \nGod..and other gnostic references\nlike \"Abraxas\" and \"Demiurge\" are mentioned a lot more and a lot more \nexplicitly than those other two in the\nSun series. Methinks your elevation of Jesus above the other two derives \nnot from the text but from your\nsociety/culture." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We have a number of clear Jesus references - culminating in a sort of \nEucharist in which the lion lays down with the lamb. Gene Wolfe certainly \nlikes to throw in gnostic names and concepts (and names and concepts from \nmany other sources) - but Christian concepts are everywhere too, even if not \nalways mentioned by name. The whole Conciliator concept, for example - this \nhas obvious Christian analogues.\n\n[One could even formulate a hypothesis that it is the unnamed concepts that \nare fundamental; the named ones always misleading or incomplete.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So I don't see the necessity for making great interpretational leaps just \nbecause it is not mentioned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Given your society/culture it may be difficult for you to realize that you \nare making the great interpretational\nleap by assuming Christ is in the story even though neither he nor \nsalvation is mentioned. Others who do not insert\nChrist into the Sun series are being conservative, parsimonious and more \ntrue to the text." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe has himself called Severian \"a Christian figure\". But it was Jesus I \nsaid was in the story, which quite clearly *is* the case. That is beside \nthe point; it is always a leap to assume that absence of evidence \nconstitutes evidence of absence.\n\nBut certainly, let us assess these ideas in terms of what the text says.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0A64DF.6020806@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-16T19:13:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought you wanted to argue from the text. You're arguing from Gerry's \ngut now.\n\nChrist is plainly NOT in the story. And this makes sense if we accept, \nas we have been told, that Urth is in a previous iteration, and Severian \nlives in the far future of that iteration (from our perspective).\n\nChrist will come in a future iteration, and these are all signs of his \ncoming, just as the light from Apollo's face presaged it in our own part \nof the cycle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/16/2010 2:05 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nWolfe has himself called Severian \"a Christian figure\". But it was \nJesus I said was in the story, which quite clearly *is* the case. \nThat is beside the point; it is always a leap to assume that absence \nof evidence constitutes evidence of absence.\n\nBut certainly, let us assess these ideas in terms of what the text says.\n\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1F23FC0BB7574F7CB247EC55A2A4F2A5@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-16T20:18:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<4D0A64DF.6020806@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message ----- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"David Stockhoff\" \nI thought you wanted to argue from the text. You're arguing from Gerry's \ngut now.\n\nChrist is plainly NOT in the story. And this makes sense if we accept, as \nwe have been told, that Urth is in a previous iteration, and Severian \nlives in the far future of that iteration (from our perspective).\n\nChrist will come in a future iteration, and these are all signs of his \ncoming, just as the light from Apollo's face presaged it in our own part \nof the cycle." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What you seem to be saying here is that this iteration features a Jesus who \nis not Christ, although he acts and spoke as Christ did. And since we have \nheard of Allah, presumably there is there is a Mohammed, and he has pointed \nto the Increate. Mohammed may have been functionally identical to that of \nour iteration, just like the Apollo astronauts. In fact most things seem to \nhave been identical. The Increate is present, and rules over all \niterations.\n\nThe fundamental difference is that Jesus was not Christ, and therefore the \ninhabitants of this universe, stuck with a dud Jesus, must make do with \nDionysus, who somehow prefigures Christ better than other deities - is that \na valid summary of what you are saying?\n\nHere are some reasons that spring to mind for doubting it:\n\n(1) Why should there not be an Incarnation in more than one iteration of the \nuniverse?\n\n(2) Who is Jesus in this universe - and what happens him in ours?\n\n(3) What's the big deal about Dionysus? He has a few symbols in common with \nChrist, but not much else. He doesn't really seem to be any kind of \nproto-Christ.\n\n(4) It's a SF seriese, not the foundational text of a new religion.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/16/2010 2:05 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wolfe has himself called Severian \"a Christian figure\". But it was Jesus \nI said was in the story, which quite clearly *is* the case. That is \nbeside the point; it is always a leap to assume that absence of evidence \nconstitutes evidence of absence.\n\nBut certainly, let us assess these ideas in terms of what the text says.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0AB65D.60702@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-17T01:01:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<1F23FC0BB7574F7CB247EC55A2A4F2A5@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/16/2010 3:18 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n----- Original Message ----- From: \"David Stockhoff\" \n" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I thought you wanted to argue from the text. You're arguing from \nGerry's gut now.\n\nChrist is plainly NOT in the story. And this makes sense if we \naccept, as we have been told, that Urth is in a previous iteration, \nand Severian lives in the far future of that iteration (from our \nperspective).\n\nChrist will come in a future iteration, and these are all signs of \nhis coming, just as the light from Apollo's face presaged it in our \nown part of the cycle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What you seem to be saying here is that this iteration features a \nJesus who is not Christ, although he acts and spoke as Christ did. \nAnd since we have heard of Allah, presumably there is there is a \nMohammed, and he has pointed to the Increate. Mohammed may have been \nfunctionally identical to that of our iteration, just like the Apollo \nastronauts. In fact most things seem to have been identical. The \nIncreate is present, and rules over all iterations.\n\nThe fundamental difference is that Jesus was not Christ, and therefore \nthe inhabitants of this universe, stuck with a dud Jesus, must make do \nwith Dionysus, who somehow prefigures Christ better than other deities \n- is that a valid summary of what you are saying?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. All of this is false, except that Al-Lah is mentioned and the \nIncreate exists." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here are some reasons that spring to mind for doubting it:\n\n(1) Why should there not be an Incarnation in more than one iteration \nof the universe?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am baffled by this question. Why indeed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(2) Who is Jesus in this universe - and what happens him in ours?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, what?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(3) What's the big deal about Dionysus? He has a few symbols in \ncommon with Christ, but not much else. He doesn't really seem to be \nany kind of proto-Christ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dionysus is a strong allusion. Just like everything else in the books. I \nam beginning to understand---you may be taking this stuff too literally." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(4) It's a SF seriese, not the foundational text of a new religion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bingo!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- Gerry Quinn" } ] } ] }