{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5830", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5830, "subject": "(no subject)", "messages": 7, "voices": 5, "first": "2010-12-16T17:46:51+00:00", "last": "2010-12-17T01:32:45+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T17:46:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As mentioned elsewhere, to describe Jesus as \"enlightened and\npossessed by the Outsider\" would be hideously incorrect theology.\nHowever, such a description might well address the problem of His\nhaving an analogue in the Briahtic universe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But is it not exactly the interpretation that would spring to the mind of an\naugur in Silk's hideously incorrect religion?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l- Yes, I believe that is correct." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIt could be. I can see the validity of this possible view. For me, the problem becomes\nthat when Silk was, in that split-second, enlightened by The Outsider, we now have to\naccept that the enlightenment was not Universal Truth but instead a culturally-relative,\nethnically corrupted version of the Truth so that Silk could understand it.\n \nIt could be argued that Silk received Universal Truth but he has to translate it into\nculturally relevant forms when he preaches so that the locals can understand it. This\ndoesn't seem quite so bad but it still suggests the approval of a corrupted message.\n \nWe might wonder- how DOES Gene Wolfe feel about culturally adapted versions of Christianity?\nIs it okay to throw in a Christmas tree and Santa for the Germanics? Mother Mary worship for\nthe Latin American people. Witchcraft and call and response singing for the Africans?\nHe might approve. I dunno. \n \nBut I remain unconvinced that our God and Jesus Christ make any appearances in the Sun series. \nI'd need either more direct Christian references (call it a crucifix, not a \"rood\"=rod) or fewer \nmonsters and demons.\n \nThat's really the crux (heh) of it, for me. The Sun series is all about what the universe would\nbe like with no Christ. Answer- We'd really have pagan gods ruling us, vampires among us, foul, \npredatory monsters in the oceans, ghouls and human sacrifice and a lot of other nasty stuff that \nwe Earthlings, blessedly, (mostly) only have in legends. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0A530E.8070100@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-16T17:57:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possibly. That seems a bit literal to me.\n\nOne could go further and speculate that such a universe is the one we \nwould experience, because we would create it ... because that is what we \nperceive, being creatures of superstition with no higher wisdom to guide \nus. At best, we'd be dupes in someone else's idea of progress, even if \nit helps us in the long run." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/16/2010 12:46 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nThat's really the crux (heh) of it, for me. The Sun series is all about what the universe would\nbe like with no Christ. Answer- We'd really have pagan gods ruling us, vampires among us, foul,\npredatory monsters in the oceans, ghouls and human sacrifice and a lot of other nasty stuff that\nwe Earthlings, blessedly, (mostly) only have in legends." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "palaeologos at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T18:03:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\nBut I remain unconvinced that our God and Jesus Christ make any appearances\nin the Sun series.\nI'd need either more direct Christian references (call it a crucifix, not a\n\"rood\"=rod) or fewer\nmonsters and demons." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would think that \"rood\" is used primarily to refer to a cross, or the\nCross. The sense in which it means \"rod\" or \"staff\" is even more obscure\nthan the Christian one.\n\nI have to confess that the assumption I sometimes see at work here, that\nWolfe always takes the longest way possible around everything, baffles and\nbemuses me. Using the word \"rood\" to signify a cross or crucifix is a way\nof distancing the phenomenon; if he merely said \"cross\" or \"crucifix\" it\nwould seem very cozily Christian to us. But the BotNS is set in a far\nfuture in which Christianity may be only a distant, mythic memory--or\nperhaps it's a distant past in which Christianity has not yet appeared. So\ncalling it a rood rather than a crucifix or cross renders it intelligible\nand retains a slight whiff of Christianity (as a survival of long ago?)\nwithout suggesting that the denizens of Urth practice what we understand to\nbe the Christian faith." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Matt +\n\nLet each man pass his days in that wherein his skill is greatest.\n Sextus Propertius (54 B.C.-A.D. 2), Elegies, II, i, 46" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0A55E9.4020504@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-16T18:09:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just like the Sign of Addition.\n\nIs it a past survival or a future one? I was going to mention to Lee the \nother day that his theory reminded me of Childhood's End, where an \nadvanced race of benign red devils comes to rule us and prepare us for \nsome Enlightenment that always struck me as on the level of meeting God." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/16/2010 1:03 PM, Matthew Weber wrote:\n\n\nOn Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Lee Berman > wrote:\n\n\n\n But I remain unconvinced that our God and Jesus Christ make any\n appearances in the Sun series.\n I'd need either more direct Christian references (call it a\n crucifix, not a \"rood\"=rod) or fewer\n monsters and demons.\n\n\nI would think that \"rood\" is used primarily to refer to a cross, or \nthe Cross. The sense in which it means \"rod\" or \"staff\" is even more \nobscure than the Christian one.\n\nI have to confess that the assumption I sometimes see at work here, \nthat Wolfe always takes the longest way possible around everything, \nbaffles and bemuses me. Using the word \"rood\" to signify a cross or \ncrucifix is a way of distancing the phenomenon; if he merely said \n\"cross\" or \"crucifix\" it would seem very cozily Christian to us. But \nthe BotNS is set in a far future in which Christianity may be only a \ndistant, mythic memory--or perhaps it's a distant past in which \nChristianity has not yet appeared. So calling it a rood rather than a \ncrucifix or cross renders it intelligible and retains a slight whiff \nof Christianity (as a survival of long ago?) without suggesting that \nthe denizens of Urth practice what we understand to be the Christian \nfaith.\n\n-- \nMatt +\n\nLet each man pass his days in that wherein his skill is greatest.\n Sextus Propertius (54 B.C.-A.D. 2), Elegies, II, i, 46" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2D2A3EE5-9718-46FC-8B59-DEC0461968AD@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-16T18:53:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 16, 2010, at 10:03 AM, Matthew Weber wrote:\n\n\nOn Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\nBut I remain unconvinced that our God and Jesus Christ make any appearances in the Sun series.\nI'd need either more direct Christian references (call it a crucifix, not a \"rood\"=rod) or fewer\nmonsters and demons.\n\n\nI would think that \"rood\" is used primarily to refer to a cross, or the Cross. The sense in which it means \"rod\" or \"staff\" is even more obscure than the Christian one.\n\nI have to confess that the assumption I sometimes see at work here, that Wolfe always takes the longest way possible around everything, baffles and bemuses me. Using the word \"rood\" to signify a cross or crucifix is a way of distancing the phenomenon; if he merely said \"cross\" or \"crucifix\" it would seem very cozily Christian to us. But the BotNS is set in a far future in which Christianity may be only a distant, mythic memory--or perhaps it's a distant past in which Christianity has not yet appeared. So calling it a rood rather than a crucifix or cross renders it intelligible and retains a slight whiff of Christianity (as a survival of long ago?) without suggesting that the denizens of Urth practice what we understand to be the Christian faith.\n\n-- \nMatt +" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for that. I completely agree about the distance obscuration.\nI think Wolfe is tricksy, but I think people mistrust him too much." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0AB9BD.2060203@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-17T01:15:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<4D0A55E9.4020504@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/16/2010 12:09 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nJust like the Sign of Addition.\n\nIs it a past survival or a future one? I was going to mention to Lee the\nother day that his theory reminded me of Childhood's End, where an\nadvanced race of benign red devils comes to rule us and prepare us for\nsome Enlightenment that always struck me as on the level of meeting God." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The black devils sorta kinda parallel the Yesodis but the resemblance is \nprobably due to the plots' descent from Teilhard de Chardin and being \ncompressed to near-novel length." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0ABDBD.3010300@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-17T01:32:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<4D0AB9BD.2060203@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff, you made me google him. Thanks.\n\nSome crazy stuff here:\n\nHaving reached the limit of its organized complexity \n, \nthe collective Christ mankind?will make a leap to a higher degree of \n*singularity* by dying and delegating all of its universe-orchestrating \npower to the *single* survivor, who will be automatically promoted to \nthe rank of Christ personal ....." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/16/2010 8:15 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 12/16/2010 12:09 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Just like the Sign of Addition.\n\nIs it a past survival or a future one? I was going to mention to Lee the\nother day that his theory reminded me of Childhood's End, where an\nadvanced race of benign red devils comes to rule us and prepare us for\nsome Enlightenment that always struck me as on the level of meeting God." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The black devils sorta kinda parallel the Yesodis but the resemblance \nis probably due to the plots' descent from Teilhard de Chardin and \nbeing compressed to near-novel length." } ] } ] }