{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5833", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5833, "subject": "The Outsider", "messages": 63, "voices": 13, "first": "2010-12-16T19:29:58+00:00", "last": "2010-12-21T16:16:26+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T19:29:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wow! How did that happen? Rather than trace my way through the\ndiscussion and reply to each bit separately, I'll just try to state my\nview as a whole.\n\nI think the Outsider is God, i.e. the God of Christianity or, more\ngenerally, of the Abrahamic faiths, also known on Urth as the\nIncreate. As evidence for this one could mention:\nThe Jesus references, both in Silk's visions (the man riding through a\ncity whetre people are waving palm leaves, the criminal on the\nscaffold) and in what's already known about the Outsider in the Whorl\n(the beating of the traders in animals).\nThe suggested identification with Ah Lah.\nThe identification with the 'maker' in the Pajarocu story.\nThe claim that according to a doubtful story he was the original\ncreator of humans,.\nThe statement that he was worshipped on the Short Sun Whorl (i.e. Urth).\nI'm inclined to add his apparent power to raise the dead.\n\nI don't think we can say precisely either that he is the Father or\nthat he is Christ. From an out-of-story perspective, if we are\nChristians, we can say that he is the Trinity, but of course no one in\nthe story thinks of him that way. Some of the things said of him may\nbe more applicable to Christ. and some to the Father - or indeed to\nthe Holy Spirit. (One of the voices which Silk hears is 'cooing')\n\nI think it's clear there is an analogue of Christianity within the\n_Sun_ world. The references are copious; there are crosses, not just\nDorcas's rood, but Ctesiphon's cross and the Sign of Addition - which\nis not the same as the voided cross, Pas's symbol, and is hinted to be\nthe Outsider's symbol. (Also the red sign of addition as a medical\nsymbol!) Names of saints; the paschal candle; the Angelus; rituals\ninvolving bread and wine; what look like direct quotations from\nscripture, for instance Marble's reference in OBW to 'the sign from\nthe belly of the fish'. This could be explained in various ways:\nthat Jesus is actually present within that universe.\nthat there is an analogue of Jesus, who is merely a prophet.\nthat the stories have somehow been transmitted from another universe.\nBut I don't think the first is ruled out. Even if it is a past\niteration of the universe, the Son of God may have been incarnated in\nit. Even if the idea of multiple incarnations multiple universes is\nnot strictly Orthodox Christianity, it's not wild and beyond the pale.\nIt's the basis of the Narnia series, and Lewis is generally seen as\npretty orthodox. I don't see anything to make me say 'This is a\nuniverse without Christ' - though at the time the events take place,\nit's certainly a universe where Christ is not _known_.\n\nNow, it is certainly true that a link is drawn between the Outsider\nand Dionysus. But I don't see that as negating the connection with the\nChristian God, but as suggesting a connection between the Christian\nGod and Dionysus - a connection which others (Lewis and Soyinka, at\nleast) have drawn, and which, therefore, can't be ruled out." } ] }, { "message_id": "<7BFF452F-F078-472F-9E37-324EF0E47E3B@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-16T19:46:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 16, 2010, at 11:29 AM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nWow! How did that happen? Rather than trace my way through the\ndiscussion and reply to each bit separately, I'll just try to state my\nview as a whole.\n\nI think the Outsider is God, i.e. the God of Christianity or, more\ngenerally, of the Abrahamic faiths, also known on Urth as the\nIncreate. As evidence for this one could mention:\nThe Jesus references, both in Silk's visions (the man riding through a\ncity whetre people are waving palm leaves, the criminal on the\nscaffold) and in what's already known about the Outsider in the Whorl\n(the beating of the traders in animals).\nThe suggested identification with Ah Lah.\nThe identification with the 'maker' in the Pajarocu story.\nThe claim that according to a doubtful story he was the original\ncreator of humans,.\nThe statement that he was worshipped on the Short Sun Whorl (i.e. Urth).\nI'm inclined to add his apparent power to raise the dead.\n\nI don't think we can say precisely either that he is the Father or\nthat he is Christ. From an out-of-story perspective, if we are\nChristians, we can say that he is the Trinity, but of course no one in\nthe story thinks of him that way. Some of the things said of him may\nbe more applicable to Christ. and some to the Father - or indeed to\nthe Holy Spirit. (One of the voices which Silk hears is 'cooing')\n\nI think it's clear there is an analogue of Christianity within the\n_Sun_ world. The references are copious; there are crosses, not just\nDorcas's rood, but Ctesiphon's cross and the Sign of Addition - which\nis not the same as the voided cross, Pas's symbol, and is hinted to be\nthe Outsider's symbol. (Also the red sign of addition as a medical\nsymbol!) Names of saints; the paschal candle; the Angelus; rituals\ninvolving bread and wine; what look like direct quotations from\nscripture, for instance Marble's reference in OBW to 'the sign from\nthe belly of the fish'. This could be explained in various ways:\nthat Jesus is actually present within that universe.\nthat there is an analogue of Jesus, who is merely a prophet.\nthat the stories have somehow been transmitted from another universe.\nBut I don't think the first is ruled out. Even if it is a past\niteration of the universe, the Son of God may have been incarnated in\nit. Even if the idea of multiple incarnations multiple universes is\nnot strictly Orthodox Christianity, it's not wild and beyond the pale.\nIt's the basis of the Narnia series, and Lewis is generally seen as\npretty orthodox. I don't see anything to make me say 'This is a\nuniverse without Christ' - though at the time the events take place,\nit's certainly a universe where Christ is not _known_.\n\nNow, it is certainly true that a link is drawn between the Outsider\nand Dionysus. But I don't see that as negating the connection with the\nChristian God, but as suggesting a connection between the Christian\nGod and Dionysus - a connection which others (Lewis and Soyinka, at\nleast) have drawn, and which, therefore, can't be ruled out.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T20:09:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Like Witz, I agree with ... well, _most_ of what you say. Here're my\npoints of difference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 11:29 AM, Andrew Mason\n wrote:\nThis could be explained in various ways:\nthat Jesus is actually present within that universe.\nthat there is an analogue of Jesus, who is merely a prophet.\nthat the stories have somehow been transmitted from another universe.\nBut I don't think the first is ruled out." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do. The idea of multiple Incarnations is not only \"not strictly\nOrthodox Christianity,\" it is abhorrent to the idea that Jesus died\nonce _for all_. \"All\" is a big word, which I mostly try to avoid, but\nit's unambiguously present in Scripture." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's the basis of the Narnia series, and Lewis is generally seen as\npretty orthodox." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, a number of fundamentalists have condemned the Narnia books\non precisely this ground. I think that's throwing the baby out with\nthe bathwater; the Narnia books are good stories, and even have a lot\nto recommend them theologically. But the idea that Aslan's death in\ntLtW&tW is analogous to Christ's salvific death on Earth has to be\ntaken with a whole salt lick." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see anything to make me say 'This is a\nuniverse without Christ' - though at the time the events take place,\nit's certainly a universe where Christ is not _known_." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's actually another theological problem. Scripture has the Church\nenduring to the end of days." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now, it is certainly true that a link is drawn between the Outsider\nand Dionysus. But I don't see that as negating the connection with the\nChristian God, but as suggesting a connection between the Christian\nGod and Dionysus - a connection which others (Lewis and Soyinka, at\nleast) have drawn, and which, therefore, can't be ruled out." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oddly enough I don't have a problem with this..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0A774F.9020400@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T20:32:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Andrew Mason-\nThis could be explained in various ways:\nthat Jesus is actually present within that universe.\nthat there is an analogue of Jesus, who is merely a prophet.\nthat the stories have somehow been transmitted from another universe.\nBut I don't think the first is ruled out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes-\nI do. The idea of multiple Incarnations is not only \"not strictly\nOrthodox Christianity,\" it is abhorrent to the idea that Jesus died\nonce _for all_. \"All\" is a big word, which I mostly try to avoid, but\nit's unambiguously present in Scripture." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's another possibility I've mentioned before. And IF I were \ninclined to justify tBotNS with Christian theology I would prefer it. I \ndon't, but I would.\n\nSince the cycles of Briah are not linked in Time, they are from a \npractical standpoint indistinguishable from parallel universes. In There \nAre Doors, although the parallel universes are based on a fundamental \ndifference, they are very similar too each other anyway. For example, \nGreen noticed that Lara's universe doesn't have ice cubes. Green \nexplains that this is because the universes are like strings on a guitar \ntuned to the same note. Pluck one and those next to it vibrate. So the \nparallel universes keep each other in line. Men in Lara's universe where \nblack tuxedos to their wedding because they die after sex. Men in \nGreen's universe do the same only because the men in Lara's universe do.\n\nSo in Severian's cycle, there was a Christian Church because there was \nin _our_ universe. The Jesus mentioned in Silk's Holy Book is a figure \nof myth. Neither Severian nor the Rajan could any more go back in time \nand meet him than you or I could go back in Time and meet Cinderella or \nJason or Thor. But that doesn't mean he hasn't heard of him. The \nOutsider is the God of all cycles, and the vision he shows Silk of \nChrist on the cross is from _our_ cycle.\n\nThus the Good News of the One Event spreads to all cycles for the \nsalvation of all.\n\nBut that's a very geeky explanation. I prefer to just call it a fantasy \nstory of the distant future in our own universe.\n\nu+16b9" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's the basis of the Narnia series, and Lewis is generally seen as\npretty orthodox." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, a number of fundamentalists have condemned the Narnia books\non precisely this ground. I think that's throwing the baby out with\nthe bathwater; the Narnia books are good stories, and even have a lot\nto recommend them theologically. But the idea that Aslan's death in\ntLtW&tW is analogous to Christ's salvific death on Earth has to be\ntaken with a whole salt lick." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't see anything to make me say 'This is a\nuniverse without Christ' - though at the time the events take place,\nit's certainly a universe where Christ is not _known_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's actually another theological problem. Scripture has the Church\nenduring to the end of days." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Now, it is certainly true that a link is drawn between the Outsider\nand Dionysus. But I don't see that as negating the connection with the\nChristian God, but as suggesting a connection between the Christian\nGod and Dionysus - a connection which others (Lewis and Soyinka, at\nleast) have drawn, and which, therefore, can't be ruled out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oddly enough I don't have a problem with this..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<27297A9F-DC53-4F73-874F-1B74905EDF72@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-16T20:33:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 16, 2010, at 12:09 PM, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" wrote:\nLike Witz, I agree with ... well, _most_ of what you say. Here're my\npoints of difference.\n\nOn Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 11:29 AM, Andrew Mason\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This could be explained in various ways:\nthat Jesus is actually present within that universe.\nthat there is an analogue of Jesus, who is merely a prophet.\nthat the stories have somehow been transmitted from another universe.\nBut I don't think the first is ruled out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do. The idea of multiple Incarnations is not only \"not strictly\nOrthodox Christianity,\" it is abhorrent to the idea that Jesus died\nonce _for all_. \"All\" is a big word, which I mostly try to avoid, but\nit's unambiguously present in Scripture." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wait. That Jesus saved us once and for all is theological interpretation, more than scripture, right? I think we can say that we are pretty sure the man Jesus actually lived and preached in our universe, but it is only theology and belief to say that his acts provided eternal salvation for the residents of that universe. I mean, where is the proof of that? The proof that he existed seems very real, but the rest is, sorry, speculation and unverified Revelation. It may be right, but that's not my point.\n\nFrom there we can say that there are clearly historical traces of the man Jesus in the Chrasmalogical writings at the very least. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's the basis of the Narnia series, and Lewis is generally seen as\npretty orthodox." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, a number of fundamentalists have condemned the Narnia books\non precisely this ground. I think that's throwing the baby out with\nthe bathwater; the Narnia books are good stories, and even have a lot\nto recommend them theologically. But the idea that Aslan's death in\ntLtW&tW is analogous to Christ's salvific death on Earth has to be\ntaken with a whole salt lick." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't see anything to make me say 'This is a\nuniverse without Christ' - though at the time the events take place,\nit's certainly a universe where Christ is not _known_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's actually another theological problem. Scripture has the Church\nenduring to the end of days." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Now, it is certainly true that a link is drawn between the Outsider\nand Dionysus. But I don't see that as negating the connection with the\nChristian God, but as suggesting a connection between the Christian\nGod and Dionysus - a connection which others (Lewis and Soyinka, at\nleast) have drawn, and which, therefore, can't be ruled out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oddly enough I don't have a problem with this...\n\n-- \nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T20:39:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": "<27297A9F-DC53-4F73-874F-1B74905EDF72@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Son of Witz\n wrote:\nI do. The idea of multiple Incarnations is not only \"not strictly\nOrthodox Christianity,\" it is abhorrent to the idea that Jesus died\nonce _for all_. \"All\" is a big word, which I mostly try to avoid, but\nit's unambiguously present in Scripture.\n\n\nWait. “That Jesus saved us once and for all is theological interpretation,\nmore than scripture, right”" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I said, it's unambiguously present in Scripture. For example,\nHebrews 7:27: \"Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to\noffer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for\nthe sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when\nhe offered himself.\" And 9:26: \"Otherwise Christ would have had to\nsuffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared\nonce for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the\nsacrifice of himself.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think we can say that we are pretty sure the\nman Jesus actually lived and preached in our universe, but it is only\ntheology and belief to say that his acts provided eternal salvation for the\nresidents of that universe. I mean, where is the proof of that? The proof\nthat he existed seems very real, but the rest is, sorry, speculation and\nunverified Revelation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are right; the revelation of Scripture is unverified. And indeed I\ntake a certain amount of it as not-literally-true (for example, the\naccounts of Genesis). But if we take it as, well, Scripture, then it\nis unambiguous that \"his acts provided eternal salvation\" for ALL. No\nother." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From there we can say that there are clearly historical traces of the man\nJesus in the Chrasmalogical writings at the very least." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where? The only Biblical quotes I recall in the C.W. are from the old testament." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<393342429B25413497A3FD17C04BDFEC@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-16T20:49:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message ----- \nFrom: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \n could be explained in various ways:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "that Jesus is actually present within that universe.\nthat there is an analogue of Jesus, who is merely a prophet.\nthat the stories have somehow been transmitted from another universe.\nBut I don't think the first is ruled out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do. The idea of multiple Incarnations is not only \"not strictly\nOrthodox Christianity,\" it is abhorrent to the idea that Jesus died\nonce _for all_. \"All\" is a big word, which I mostly try to avoid, but\nit's unambiguously present in Scripture." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even theologians who take a hard line on this might pause for thought when \nconsidering the precise situation Wolfe is postulating (tentatively) - a \nsuccession of near-identical iterated universes.\n\n\"All\" is a big word, but it is usually taken as referring to the contents of \na particular universe. Many physicists invoke at times the concept of a \nmultiverse, and yet they may use \"all\" to indicate the contents of a single \none.\n\nFurthermore, the question of a single incarnation is actually highly \nproblematic in such a sequence!\n\nWe know there is a Jesus-analogue in the Solar Cycle. Some hypothesise that \nthis is an imperfect Jesus, a man who is not the incarnation of god, as he \nwill be in a future cycle, presumably ours.\n\nBut if he is the Incarnation in one cycle, what happens in the cycle after \nthat? Back to an imperfect Jesus-analogue?\n\nOr is our iteration the last? If so, one would think it should be in some \nway perfect. Does it look perfect to anybody?\n\nI think multiple Incarnations are almost an inevitable consequence of \nWolfe's scenario.\n\n(I don't think most people, including Catholic theologians, would be shocked \nby the notion of Incarnations on differnet planets of our universe \neither...)\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T20:56:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": "<393342429B25413497A3FD17C04BDFEC@jill>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: >" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's the basis of the Narnia series, and Lewis is generally seen as\npretty orthodox." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, a number of fundamentalists have condemned the Narnia books\non precisely this ground." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, I know. But we aren't actually doing theology here, but literary\ninterpretation: can we be sure that, while Lewis is capable of heresy,\nWolfe is not? Or at least of imagining a world whose literal\ndescription would be heretical?\n\nI'm not particularly attached to the actual presence of Jesus in the\n_Sun_ universe; after all the various pagan gods who are alluded to\naren't literally present in it either. I just don't see him as so\nmanifestly absent that the series can actually be read as having the\naim of working out the consequnces of his absence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's actually another theological problem. Scripture has the Church\nenduring to the end of days." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True. This may be another point on which Wolfe is deviating from\northodoxy; though actually you could finesse it by saying that while\nChrist is unknown (or not clearly known) on Urth and the Whorl, he\nmight be known in some other corners of the universe." } ] }, { "message_id": "<54755BD6-DCD6-40C3-8821-F8769C7D98B1@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-16T20:57:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 16, 2010, at 12:39 PM, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" wrote:\nOn Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Son of Witz\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I do. The idea of multiple Incarnations is not only \"not strictly\nOrthodox Christianity,\" it is abhorrent to the idea that Jesus died\nonce _for all_. \"All\" is a big word, which I mostly try to avoid, but\nit's unambiguously present in Scripture.\n\n\nWait. That Jesus saved us once and for all is theological interpretation,\nmore than scripture, right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As I said, it's unambiguously present in Scripture. For example,\nHebrews 7:27: \"Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to\noffer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for\nthe sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when\nhe offered himself.\" And 9:26: \"Otherwise Christ would have had to\nsuffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared\nonce for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the\nsacrifice of himself.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think we can say that we are pretty sure the\nman Jesus actually lived and preached in our universe, but it is only\ntheology and belief to say that his acts provided eternal salvation for the\nresidents of that universe. I mean, where is the proof of that? The proof\nthat he existed seems very real, but the rest is, sorry, speculation and\nunverified Revelation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You are right; the revelation of Scripture is unverified. And indeed I\ntake a certain amount of it as not-literally-true (for example, the\naccounts of Genesis). But if we take it as, well, Scripture, then it\nis unambiguous that \"his acts provided eternal salvation\" for ALL. No\nother." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ok, then my point stands. Anything that interprets the visible actions and quoted staetments is Essentialy theological speculation. So it would be as possible to have multiple universes with jesus where none of them were ever saved because the revelation is not valid as it is to have multiple universes with one Jesus who saved them all forever because the revelation is right.\nWithout the answer to the question of the veracity of the theology, we aren't on solid ground to say one or the other MUST be." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From there we can say that there are clearly historical traces of the man\nJesus in the Chrasmalogical writings at the very least." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where? The only Biblical quotes I recall in the C.W. are from the old testament." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the chrasmalogical writings. Money changers and the scourge. A few habe been listed out in the last few days." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0AB392.3050706@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-17T00:49:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And that is half the point. We can agree on that at least.\n\nOf course, then you have to wonder what happened to him. Perhaps he was \nnot crucified; and with no resulting salvation, he was largely forgotten." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/16/2010 2:29 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nI don't see anything to make me say 'This is a\nuniverse without Christ' - though at the time the events take place,\nit's certainly a universe where Christ is not_known_." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0AB74F.1000102@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-17T01:05:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": "<4D0A774F.9020400@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this is correct. I presented my scheme of gradual \nimprovement/enlightenment because Severian specifically describes it and \nit helps sort out why one iteration would have our experience and \nSeverian's another, but that's all I'd add." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/16/2010 3:32 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n\n\nThere's another possibility I've mentioned before. And IF I were \ninclined to justify tBotNS with Christian theology I would prefer it. \nI don't, but I would.\n\nSince the cycles of Briah are not linked in Time, they are from a \npractical standpoint indistinguishable from parallel universes. In \nThere Are Doors, although the parallel universes are based on a \nfundamental difference, they are very similar too each other anyway. \nFor example, Green noticed that Lara's universe doesn't have ice \ncubes. Green explains that this is because the universes are like \nstrings on a guitar tuned to the same note. Pluck one and those next \nto it vibrate. So the parallel universes keep each other in line. Men \nin Lara's universe where black tuxedos to their wedding because they \ndie after sex. Men in Green's universe do the same only because the \nmen in Lara's universe do.\n\nSo in Severian's cycle, there was a Christian Church because there was \nin _our_ universe. The Jesus mentioned in Silk's Holy Book is a figure \nof myth. Neither Severian nor the Rajan could any more go back in time \nand meet him than you or I could go back in Time and meet Cinderella \nor Jason or Thor. But that doesn't mean he hasn't heard of him. The \nOutsider is the God of all cycles, and the vision he shows Silk of \nChrist on the cross is from _our_ cycle.\n\nThus the Good News of the One Event spreads to all cycles for the \nsalvation of all.\n\nBut that's a very geeky explanation. I prefer to just call it a \nfantasy story of the distant future in our own universe.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-17T11:31:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": "<4D0AB74F.1000102@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 12/16/2010 2:29 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't see anything to make me say 'This is a\nuniverse without Christ' - though at the time the events take place,\nit's certainly a universe where Christ is not_known_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And that is half the point. We can agree on that at least.\n\nOf course, then you have to wonder what happened to him. Perhaps he was\nnot crucified; and with no resulting salvation, he was largely forgotten." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Except that I now realise I misspoke. He (if he exists) is not wholly\nunknown - the scourging of the animal sellers appears to be a\nreference to him, and so, I take it, is the Theoanthropos of _New\nSun_. The religion of Urth is influenced by Christianity in numerous\nways; the religion of the Whorl is a parody of it, though also of\nGreek paganism. Christ is not _clearly_ known. And I think this is\nunsurprising, for nothing from our culture is clearly known. It was\nlost during the first empire; later it was restored, but in an\nobscured form.\n\nI'm not suggesting this is the only possible interpretation. Perhaps\nthis world has only a Jesus-analogue, perhaps it has only myths. But\nif it were a world where Jesus existed, then given the general facts\nabout the obscuring of cultural memory, what we see doesn't seem\nsurprising to me." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-17T11:52:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n(I don't think most people, including Catholic theologians, would be shocked\nby the notion of Incarnations on differnet planets of our universe\neither...)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is the basis of the (in some circles) well-known Christmas hymn\n'Every star shall sing a carol', by Sidney Carter.\n\nOn the other hand it is firmly rejected by C.S. Lewis, who seems OK\nwith the idea of different incarnations in different universes.\n\nNone of which, of course, proves anything about Wolfe. I agree that\nyour reading is the simplest; it fits in with the fact that Severian's\nworld has a past very (incredibly) like our own, and the clear\nexistence of a Christianity-analogue there. These can be explained in\nother ways; but to insist that they must be seems to me to turn on a\ntheological assumption that it's not clear Wolfe shares. I'm inclined\nto share it myself; but manifestly not everyone does, so I don't\ninsist on it as a principle of interpretation." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0B513A.3090801@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-17T12:02:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andrew Mason wrote (17-12-2010 11:52):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(I don't think most people, including Catholic theologians, would be shocked\nby the notion of Incarnations on differnet planets of our universe\neither...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is the basis of the (in some circles) well-known Christmas hymn\n'Every star shall sing a carol', by Sidney Carter.\n\nOn the other hand it is firmly rejected by C.S. Lewis, who seems OK\nwith the idea of different incarnations in different universes.\n\nNone of which, of course, proves anything about Wolfe. I agree that\nyour reading is the simplest; it fits in with the fact that Severian's\nworld has a past very (incredibly) like our own, and the clear\nexistence of a Christianity-analogue there. These can be explained in\nother ways; but to insist that they must be seems to me to turn on a\ntheological assumption that it's not clear Wolfe shares. I'm inclined\nto share it myself; but manifestly not everyone does, so I don't\ninsist on it as a principle of interpretation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll just say I think that until proven otherwise there was a Jesus on Urth. \nBut either that Jesus wasn't God the Sun (bwahaha), or he was but the Church \nthere failed for whatever reason. I just don't think it's logical that \nspecific Jesus-related lore exists ('Judas tree', 'Mary', etc) without a \nJesus (who may even have been called Bill, of course)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0B5D06.5080509@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-17T12:52:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it is unnecessary to study too closely the question of \nincarnations and universes. Seems to me that the question of how many \nincarnations can fit into the multiverse depends far more on one's sense \nof a \"universe\" than on one's theology. Lewis is bound to think \ndifferently from Wolfe, and so on. At one point we discussed this on the \nplanetary level (specifically, Wolfe's Christmas story set on another \nplanet).\n\nRecall that \"universe\" was once commonly taken to refer to our galaxy \nalone; now we know how much bigger the universe is than we thought a \nmere 100 years ago. And theories of its construction have advanced \ntremendously as well.\n\nAfter all, even if we objectively observe several \"universes,\" how do we \nknow whether these represent subdivisions of a universe, or additions \ninto a multiverse?\n\nWe don't. The \"Author\" has the final say, and can therefore hand out the \nincarnations as he sees fit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/17/2010 6:52 AM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(I don't think most people, including Catholic theologians, would be shocked\nby the notion of Incarnations on differnet planets of our universe\neither...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is the basis of the (in some circles) well-known Christmas hymn\n'Every star shall sing a carol', by Sidney Carter.\n\nOn the other hand it is firmly rejected by C.S. Lewis, who seems OK\nwith the idea of different incarnations in different universes.\n\nNone of which, of course, proves anything about Wolfe. I agree that\nyour reading is the simplest; it fits in with the fact that Severian's\nworld has a past very (incredibly) like our own, and the clear\nexistence of a Christianity-analogue there. These can be explained in\nother ways; but to insist that they must be seems to me to turn on a\ntheological assumption that it's not clear Wolfe shares. I'm inclined\nto share it myself; but manifestly not everyone does, so I don't\ninsist on it as a principle of interpretation.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-17T14:02:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": "<4D0B5D06.5080509@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason- He (if he exists) is not wholly unknown - the scourging of the animal sellers \nappears to be a reference to him, and so, I take it, is the Theoanthropos of _New\nSun_." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIn my view, Severian is the Theoanthropos, given his mixed parentage, that which makes him the\nperfect Conciliator between humanity and the sky gods.\n \nSeverian tells us early on that he practices his mystery throughout his travels but will not \ndescribe each instance to avoid giving his story any perverse appeal to sadists. There may be\nseveral copies of him travelling through time and Typhon's Urthly empire.\n \nWolfe has admitted that he considers Severian an aspect of the Outsider. I consider it possible\nthat the legends of a scourger possessed by the Outsider point more to Severian, than our earthly \nJesus. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<611591C3-8FEB-481C-A0E2-DF45CC717C41@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-17T16:02:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": "<4D0B5D06.5080509@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would argue that it is very important to take anything Malrubius teaches Severian to heart within the realm of BotNS. Here may be the single most important thing Malrubius explained...\n\n\"Just as a flower blooms, throws down its seed, dies, and rises from its seed to bloom again, so the universe we know diffuses itself to nullity in the infinitude of space, gathers its fragments (which because of the curvature of that space meet at last where they began) and from that seed blooms again. Each such cycle of flowering and decay marks a divine year.\n\nAs the flower that comes is like the flower from which it came, so the universe that comes repeats the one whose ruin was its origin; and this is as true of its finer features as of its grosser ones: The worlds that arise are not unlike the worlds that perished, and are peopled by similar races, though just as the flower evolves from summer to summer, all things advance by some minute step.\n\nIn a certain divine year (a time truly inconceivable to us, though that cycle of the universes was but one in an endless succession), a race was born that was so like to ours that Master Malrubius did not scruple to call it human. It expanded among the galaxies of its universe even as we are said to have done in the remote past, when Urth was, for a time, the center, or at least the home and symbol, of an empire.\n\nThese men encountered many beings on other worlds who had intelligence to some degree, or at least the potential for intelligence, and from them that they might have comrades in the loneliness between the galaxies and allies among their swarming worlds they formed beings like themselves.\n\nIt was not done swiftly or easily. Uncountable billions suffered and died under their guiding hands, leaving ineradicable memories of pain and blood. When their universe was old, and galaxy so far separated from galaxy that the nearest could not be seen even as faint stars, and the ships were steered thence by ancient records alone, the thing was done. Completed, the work was greater than those who began it could have guessed. What had been made was not a new race like Humanity's, but a race such as Humanity wished its own to be: united, compassionate, just.\n\nI was not told what became of the Humanity of that cycle. Perhaps it survived until the implosion of the universe, then perished with it. Perhaps it evolved beyond our recognition. But the beings Humanity had shaped into what men and women wished to be escaped, opening a passage to Yesod, the universe higher than our own, where they created worlds suited to what they had become. From that vantage point they look both forward and back, and in so looking they have discovered us. Perhaps we are no more than a race like that who shaped them. Perhaps it was we who shaped them ?or our sons or our fathers. Malrubius said he did not know, and I believe he told the truth. However it may be, they shape us now as they themselves were shaped; it is at once their repayment and their revenge.\"\n\n(Citadel of the Autarch, c.34 - \"The Key to the Universe\")\n\nWith the entire obliteration of a universe, we cannot assume that pictures of astronauts from Earth carried over from one divine year to the next. This universe is, at best, a refined mirror image of Earth, but in this Urth, there were once astronauts very like Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong. One would stand to reason there is a God (Increate) and a Christ figure (Conciliator?).\n\nWhether Urth is in a divine year before or after Earth is a different question all together, but Wolfe clearly outlines that a divine year includes the death of one universe and the blossoming of another.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 17, 2010, at 7:52 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI think it is unnecessary to study too closely the question of incarnations and universes. Seems to me that the question of how many incarnations can fit into the multiverse depends far more on one's sense of a \"universe\" than on one's theology. Lewis is bound to think differently from Wolfe, and so on. At one point we discussed this on the planetary level (specifically, Wolfe's Christmas story set on another planet).\n\nRecall that \"universe\" was once commonly taken to refer to our galaxy alone; now we know how much bigger the universe is than we thought a mere 100 years ago. And theories of its construction have advanced tremendously as well.\n\nAfter all, even if we objectively observe several \"universes,\" how do we know whether these represent subdivisions of a universe, or additions into a multiverse?\n\nWe don't. The \"Author\" has the final say, and can therefore hand out the incarnations as he sees fit.\n\nOn 12/17/2010 6:52 AM, Andrew Mason wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "(I don't think most people, including Catholic theologians, would be shocked\nby the notion of Incarnations on differnet planets of our universe\neither...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That is the basis of the (in some circles) well-known Christmas hymn\n'Every star shall sing a carol', by Sidney Carter.\n\nOn the other hand it is firmly rejected by C.S. Lewis, who seems OK\nwith the idea of different incarnations in different universes.\n\nNone of which, of course, proves anything about Wolfe. I agree that\nyour reading is the simplest; it fits in with the fact that Severian's\nworld has a past very (incredibly) like our own, and the clear\nexistence of a Christianity-analogue there. These can be explained in\nother ways; but to insist that they must be seems to me to turn on a\ntheological assumption that it's not clear Wolfe shares. I'm inclined\nto share it myself; but manifestly not everyone does, so I don't\ninsist on it as a principle of interpretation.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0164D145-EA1E-48EA-8543-2326B1CEF021@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-17T17:52:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<611591C3-8FEB-481C-A0E2-DF45CC717C41@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 17, 2010, at 8:02 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n(Citadel of the Autarch, c.34 - \"The Key to the Universe\")\n\nWith the entire obliteration of a universe, we cannot assume that pictures of astronauts from Earth carried over from one divine year to the next. This universe is, at best, a refined mirror image of Earth, but in this Urth, there were once astronauts very like Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong. One would stand to reason there is a God (Increate) and a Christ figure (Conciliator?).\n\nWhether Urth is in a divine year before or after Earth is a different question all together, but Wolfe clearly outlines that a divine year includes the death of one universe and the blossoming of another.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for pointing to Malrubius. I love that part. It is almost at the end of a series that began with \"Resurrection & Death\"\n\nHowever, I take issue with a conclusion you draw from this which I think the text implies the opposite. The Moon Painting can exist in their creation if the Book of the New Sun can exist in ours as a translated work. Remember the awesome beginning of Urth of the New Sun when Severian sees the black hole surrounded by the ring of stars? It's one of the most breathtaking scenes in the series, and hugely important.\n\nV-II The Fifth Sailor\n\n\"We had penetrated the fabric of time, and the fuligin vortex marked the end of the universe. Or its beginning. If its beginning, then that shimmering ring of stars was the scattering of the young suns, and the only truly magical ring this universe would ever know. Hailing them, I shouted for joy, though no one heard my voice but the Increate and me. I drew my cloak to me and pulled the leaden coffer from it; and I held the coffer above my head in both my hands; and I cast it, cheering as I cast it, out of my unseen cloak of air, out of the purlieu of the ship, out of the universe that the coffer and I had known, and into the new creation as final offering from the old. At once my destiny seized me and flung me back.\"\n\nFirst, an artifact seems to have crossed from one blossom to another due to the possiblity of exiting that time-space. What is to say that other cargo from one of these ships might not have crossed over as well? In fact, this solution is far more likely than believing that a photograph or a canvas with oil or plastic pigments would last 30,000 to 1,000,000 years into the future, if Earth is Urth's past. That is extremely unlikely. \n\nSecond, it's worth noting that Severian's mission would have FAILED if he hadn't chucked that book out and created a force to propell him back. The New Sun of Ushas depends on this act.\n\nThird. I've really been chewing over the Apollo moon landing painting.\nWe all seem to take it on face value that it is Neil or Buzz, an obvious nod to the extreme distance of time between Urth and Earth. But really, the text does not disambiguate this depiction, so we have to admit that it may NOT ACTUALLY be a painting of the Apollo Moon Landing. It may be a photo of an Urth empire astronaut pre-moon forrestation. Wolfe may be giving us a double mind-fuck!\n\nI used to assume that this painting and a green moon clearly indicated that Earth was in Urth's past, whithin the creation of Briah. I don't think that is a necessary conclusion now. If a verdant lune is a creation of urthlings, it is conceivable that without their tendings, the moon could go back to being barren, and thus we would see our barren moon despite it once having had a forrest.\n\nFourth. Severian doesn't really know if he's seeing a Big Bang or a Grand Gnab, he is guessing. Plus, it is a guess to say that the copy we have IS the one that he threw to the \"new creation\". We know that one of the two copies crossed from Urth to Earth, but not which one.\n\nFurthermore, it is still within the realm of The Text to say that we Don't know that Earth is in another universal blossom than Urth is, even though Wolfe's interview leads us there. Ushas could be Earth. The last decade has uncovered so many massive structures that could not seemingly have been made by the hunter-gatherers who are supposed to have built them, that Erich Von Daniken looks less like a quack then he did thirty years ago when his work was dismissed as not having enough evidence. The more we look back, the more it looks like our civilzation is built over one vastly older civilization that was burried in a deluge. (none of which is to say I believe that BotNS is TRUE or something.)\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-17T18:20:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<0164D145-EA1E-48EA-8543-2326B1CEF021@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz- \"We had penetrated the fabric of time, and the fuligin vortex marked the end of \nthe universe. Or its beginning. If >its beginning, then that shimmering ring of stars was the \nscattering of the young suns, and the only truly magical ring this >universe would ever know." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian doesn't really know if he's seeing a Big Bang or a Grand Gnab, he is guessing. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nTrue, though I think it goes deeper than that, even. Consider Malrubius' words:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Just as a flower blooms, throws down its seed, dies, and rises from its seed to bloom again, so the \nuniverse we know diffuses itself to nullity in the infinitude of space, gathers its fragments \n(which because of the curvature of that space meet at last where they began)...\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThe parenthetical part is as Severian describes it. The beginning is at the same point as the end.\n \nNormally when we think of sequences, there has to be a beginning of one element distinct from the end of\nthe previous element. Otherwise it is just circular. The closest I am able to picture is a spiral shape\nwhere the end of one coil is right there at the beginning of the next. Maybe that's how Wolfe meant us\nto picture it. (Yesodis like the helix)\n \nConsider also there is the issue of the location of Yesod. In last year's discussion we learned there are text\npassages suggesting it is forward in time from Briah and text passages suggesting it is backward in \ntime. How can it be both?\n \nI get the impression Wolfe is trying to describe some of these concepts in a confusing, self-contradictory \nmanner to make the point that these things are too vast and n-dimensional for a human brain to comprehend.\n(I think Frank Herbert does the same thing to describe Paul Atreides' pan-temporal prescience in the \nearly Dune books). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<8A769519-0794-43FA-93DC-DA2D741D4BEB@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-17T18:40:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 17, 2010, at 10:20 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Son of Witz- \"We had penetrated the fabric of time, and the fuligin vortex marked the end of \nthe universe. Or its beginning. If >its beginning, then that shimmering ring of stars was the \nscattering of the young suns, and the only truly magical ring this >universe would ever know." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian doesn't really know if he's seeing a Big Bang or a Grand Gnab, he is guessing. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "True, though I think it goes deeper than that, even. Consider Malrubius' words:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Just as a flower blooms, throws down its seed, dies, and rises from its seed to bloom again, so the \nuniverse we know diffuses itself to nullity in the infinitude of space, gathers its fragments \n(which because of the curvature of that space meet at last where they began)...\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The parenthetical part is as Severian describes it. The beginning is at the same point as the end.\n\nNormally when we think of sequences, there has to be a beginning of one element distinct from the end of\nthe previous element. Otherwise it is just circular. The closest I am able to picture is a spiral shape\nwhere the end of one coil is right there at the beginning of the next. Maybe that's how Wolfe meant us\nto picture it. (Yesodis like the helix)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have always thought the shape of the universe was a torus. Hawking described a globe which had opposing poles that were the Big Bang and Big Crunch. It seems obvious to me that a better model is a torus, the center of which is this Black Hole/ White Fountain. Time and creation whirl around the surface and through the center again and again. \n(this is actually a cosmology I believe in, which may be why One of the reasons I find this book so resonant.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Consider also there is the issue of the location of Yesod. In last year's discussion we learned there are text\npassages suggesting it is forward in time from Briah and text passages suggesting it is backward in \ntime. How can it be both?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because it is outside our time-space and are capable of perceiving the breadth of temporality within that time bubble in a multi-linear way. \nDon't over think what is a simple metaphor. They escaped the wheel of time. They are outside of any time-space that concerns us." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I get the impression Wolfe is trying to describe some of these concepts in a confusing, self-contradictory \nmanner to make the point that these things are too vast and n-dimensional for a human brain to comprehend.\n(I think Frank Herbert does the same thing to describe Paul Atreides' pan-temporal prescience in the \nearly Dune books). " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-17T18:50:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<0164D145-EA1E-48EA-8543-2326B1CEF021@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And which structures are those?\n\n \n\n\nFrom: Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org\nDate: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 09:52:55 -0800\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Key to the Universe\n\n\nOn Dec 17, 2010, at 8:02 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\n\n\n\n The last decade has uncovered so many massive structures that could not seemingly have been made by the hunter-gatherers who are supposed to have built them, that Erich Von Daniken looks less like a quack then he did thirty years ago when his work was dismissed as not having enough evidence. The more we look back, the more it looks like our civilzation is built over one vastly older civilization that was burried in a deluge. (none of which is to say I believe that BotNS is TRUE or something.)\n\n\n~witz\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<094858DD-944B-4455-B710-CCB2BF00B105@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-17T19:14:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 17, 2010, at 10:50 AM, Pedro Pereira wrote:\nAnd which structures are those?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm no expert on this stuff, and I don't want to derail the thread with a tangent.\nOne interesting one is Gobekli Tepe in Turkey. There are also several underwater structures that have been uncovered in the last 15 years that are dated 10,000 years old and are have enormous stone blocks of several hundred tons. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nFrom: Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org\nDate: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 09:52:55 -0800\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Key to the Universe\n\nOn Dec 17, 2010, at 8:02 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\n The last decade has uncovered so many massive structures that could not seemingly have been made by the hunter-gatherers who are supposed to have built them, that Erich Von Daniken looks less like a quack then he did thirty years ago when his work was dismissed as not having enough evidence. The more we look back, the more it looks like our civilzation is built over one vastly older civilization that was burried in a deluge. (none of which is to say I believe that BotNS is TRUE or something.)\n\n~witz\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-17T19:25:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<094858DD-944B-4455-B710-CCB2BF00B105@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks. \nPedro\n\n\n\nFrom: Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org\nDate: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 11:14:58 -0800\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Key to the Universe\n\n\n\n\n\nOn Dec 17, 2010, at 10:50 AM, Pedro Pereira wrote:\n\n\n\n\nAnd which structures are those?\n\n\n\n\nI'm no expert on this stuff, and I don't want to derail the thread with a tangent.\nOne interesting one is Gobekli Tepe in Turkey. There are also several underwater structures that have been uncovered in the last 15 years that are dated 10,000 years old and are have enormous stone blocks of several hundred tons. \n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\n\nFrom: Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org\nDate: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 09:52:55 -0800\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Key to the Universe\n\n\nOn Dec 17, 2010, at 8:02 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\n\n\n\n The last decade has uncovered so many massive structures that could not seemingly have been made by the hunter-gatherers who are supposed to have built them, that Erich Von Daniken looks less like a quack then he did thirty years ago when his work was dismissed as not having enough evidence. The more we look back, the more it looks like our civilzation is built over one vastly older civilization that was burried in a deluge. (none of which is to say I believe that BotNS is TRUE or something.)\n\n\n~witz \n_______________________________________________ Urth Mailing List To post, write urth at urth.net Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<983556.637.qm@web84101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-17T20:07:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": "<611591C3-8FEB-481C-A0E2-DF45CC717C41@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How does your quote support your conclusions? How does it address incarnations?\nNo one has suggested that paintings of astronauts survived the death of universes.\n\n--- On Fri, 12/17/10, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nFrom: Ryan Dunn \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Outsider\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, December 17, 2010, 11:02 AM\n\nI would argue that it is very important to take anything Malrubius teaches Severian to heart within the realm of BotNS. Here may be the single most important thing Malrubius explained...\n\"Just as a flower blooms, throws down its seed, dies, and rises from its seed to bloom again, so the universe we know diffuses itself to nullity in the?infinitude of space, gathers its fragments (which because of the curvature of that space meet at last where they began) and from that seed blooms again.?Each such cycle of flowering and decay marks a divine year.\nAs the flower that comes is like the flower from which it came, so the universe that comes repeats the one whose ruin was its origin; and this is as true of its finer features as of its grosser ones: The worlds that arise are not unlike the worlds that perished, and are peopled by similar races, though just as the flower evolves from summer to summer, all things advance by some minute step.\nIn a certain divine year (a time truly inconceivable to us, though that cycle of the universes was but one in an endless succession), a race was born that was so like to ours that Master Malrubius did not scruple to call it human. It expanded among the galaxies of its universe even as we are said to have done in the remote past, when Urth was, for a time, the center, or at least the home and symbol, of an empire.\nThese men encountered many beings on other worlds who had intelligence to some degree, or at least the potential for intelligence, and from them that?they might have comrades in the loneliness between the galaxies and allies among their swarming worlds they formed beings like themselves.\nIt was not done swiftly or easily. Uncountable billions suffered and died under their guiding hands, leaving ineradicable memories of pain and blood.?When their universe was old, and galaxy so far separated from galaxy that the nearest could not be seen even as faint stars, and the ships were steered thence by ancient records alone, the thing was done. Completed, the work was greater than those who began it could have guessed. What had been made was not a new race like Humanity's, but a race such as Humanity wished its own to be: united, compassionate, just.\nI was not told what became of the Humanity of that cycle. Perhaps it survived until the implosion of the universe, then perished with it. Perhaps it evolved beyond our recognition. But the beings Humanity had shaped into what men and women wished to be escaped, opening a passage to Yesod, the universe higher than our own, where they created worlds suited to what they had become.?From that vantage point they look both forward and back, and in so looking they have discovered us. Perhaps we are no more than a race like that who shaped them. Perhaps it was we who shaped them ?or our sons or our fathers. Malrubius said he did not know, and I believe he told the truth. However it may be, they shape us now as they themselves were shaped; it is at once their repayment and their revenge.\"\n(Citadel of the Autarch, c.34 - \"The Key to the Universe\")\nWith the entire obliteration of a universe, we cannot assume that pictures of astronauts from Earth carried over from one divine year to the next. This universe is, at best, a refined mirror image of Earth, but in this Urth, there were once astronauts very like Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong. One would stand to reason there is a God (Increate) and a Christ figure (Conciliator?).\nWhether Urth is in a divine year before or after Earth is a different question all together, but Wolfe clearly outlines that a divine year includes the death of one universe and the blossoming of another.\n...ryan\n\nOn Dec 17, 2010, at 7:52 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI think it is unnecessary to study too closely the question of incarnations and universes. Seems to me that the question of how many incarnations can fit into the multiverse depends far more on one's sense of a \"universe\" than on one's theology. Lewis is bound to think differently from Wolfe, and so on. At one point we discussed this on the planetary level (specifically, Wolfe's Christmas story set on another planet).\n\nRecall that \"universe\" was once commonly ?taken to refer to our galaxy alone; now we know how much bigger the universe is than we thought a mere 100 years ago. And theories of its construction have advanced tremendously as well.\n\nAfter all, even if we objectively observe several \"universes,\" how do we know whether these represent subdivisions of a universe, or additions into a multiverse?\n\nWe don't. The \"Author\" has the final say, and can therefore hand out the incarnations as he sees fit.\n\nOn 12/17/2010 6:52 AM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nGerry Quinn wrote:\n\n(I don't think most people, including Catholic theologians, would be shocked\nby the notion of Incarnations on differnet planets of our universe\neither...)\nThat is the basis of the (in some circles) well-known Christmas hymn\n'Every star shall sing a carol', by Sidney Carter.\n\nOn the other hand it is firmly rejected by C.S. Lewis, who seems OK\nwith the idea of different incarnations in different universes.\n\nNone of which, of course, proves anything about Wolfe. I agree that\nyour reading is the simplest; it fits in with the fact that Severian's\nworld has a past very (incredibly) like our own, and the clear\nexistence of a Christianity-analogue there. These can be explained in\nother ways; but to insist that they must be seems to me to turn on a\ntheological assumption that it's not clear Wolfe shares. I'm inclined\nto share it myself; but manifestly not everyone does, so I don't\ninsist on it as a principle of interpretation." } ] }, { "message_id": "<441267.80931.qm@web84104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-17T20:11:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<0164D145-EA1E-48EA-8543-2326B1CEF021@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's NOT a contemporary painting---it doesn't exist in this universe, as far as anyone here has been able to discover. Therefore, it is a product of Briah in Severian's past.\n\n--- On Fri, 12/17/10, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) Key to the Universe" } ] }, { "message_id": "<13859D0C-A1B7-4B52-8892-EB143A377812@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-17T20:14:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": "<983556.637.qm@web84101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David,\n\nI think Mike's point was that, if the tome we have all read made it from one divine year to another, then so, too, could a painting of an astronaut.\n\nI may have the wrong of it.\n\nRegardless, I'm of the opinion that:\n\nDivine Year X = Earth\nDivine Year Y = Urth\n\nwhere X and Y are not sequential, as I'm still not sure if I/we know which came first.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 17, 2010, at 3:07 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nHow does your quote support your conclusions? How does it address incarnations?\n\nNo one has suggested that paintings of astronauts survived the death of universes.\n\n--- On Fri, 12/17/10, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nFrom: Ryan Dunn \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Outsider\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, December 17, 2010, 11:02 AM\n\nI would argue that it is very important to take anything Malrubius teaches Severian to heart within the realm of BotNS. Here may be the single most important thing Malrubius explained...\n\n\"Just as a flower blooms, throws down its seed, dies, and rises from its seed to bloom again, so the universe we know diffuses itself to nullity in the infinitude of space, gathers its fragments (which because of the curvature of that space meet at last where they began) and from that seed blooms again. Each such cycle of flowering and decay marks a divine year.\n\nAs the flower that comes is like the flower from which it came, so the universe that comes repeats the one whose ruin was its origin; and this is as true of its finer features as of its grosser ones: The worlds that arise are not unlike the worlds that perished, and are peopled by similar races, though just as the flower evolves from summer to summer, all things advance by some minute step.\n\nIn a certain divine year (a time truly inconceivable to us, though that cycle of the universes was but one in an endless succession), a race was born that was so like to ours that Master Malrubius did not scruple to call it human. It expanded among the galaxies of its universe even as we are said to have done in the remote past, when Urth was, for a time, the center, or at least the home and symbol, of an empire.\n\nThese men encountered many beings on other worlds who had intelligence to some degree, or at least the potential for intelligence, and from them that they might have comrades in the loneliness between the galaxies and allies among their swarming worlds they formed beings like themselves.\n\nIt was not done swiftly or easily. Uncountable billions suffered and died under their guiding hands, leaving ineradicable memories of pain and blood. When their universe was old, and galaxy so far separated from galaxy that the nearest could not be seen even as faint stars, and the ships were steered thence by ancient records alone, the thing was done. Completed, the work was greater than those who began it could have guessed. What had been made was not a new race like Humanity's, but a race such as Humanity wished its own to be: united, compassionate, just.\n\nI was not told what became of the Humanity of that cycle. Perhaps it survived until the implosion of the universe, then perished with it. Perhaps it evolved beyond our recognition. But the beings Humanity had shaped into what men and women wished to be escaped, opening a passage to Yesod, the universe higher than our own, where they created worlds suited to what they had become. From that vantage point they look both forward and back, and in so looking they have discovered us. Perhaps we are no more than a race like that who shaped them. Perhaps it was we who shaped them ?or our sons or our fathers. Malrubius said he did not know, and I believe he told the truth. However it may be, they shape us now as they themselves were shaped; it is at once their repayment and their revenge.\"\n\n(Citadel of the Autarch, c.34 - \"The Key to the Universe\")\n\nWith the entire obliteration of a universe, we cannot assume that pictures of astronauts from Earth carried over from one divine year to the next. This universe is, at best, a refined mirror image of Earth, but in this Urth, there were once astronauts very like Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong. One would stand to reason there is a God (Increate) and a Christ figure (Conciliator?).\n\nWhether Urth is in a divine year before or after Earth is a different question all together, but Wolfe clearly outlines that a divine year includes the death of one universe and the blossoming of another.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Dec 17, 2010, at 7:52 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think it is unnecessary to study too closely the question of incarnations and universes. Seems to me that the question of how many incarnations can fit into the multiverse depends far more on one's sense of a \"universe\" than on one's theology. Lewis is bound to think differently from Wolfe, and so on. At one point we discussed this on the planetary level (specifically, Wolfe's Christmas story set on another planet).\n\nRecall that \"universe\" was once commonly taken to refer to our galaxy alone; now we know how much bigger the universe is than we thought a mere 100 years ago. And theories of its construction have advanced tremendously as well.\n\nAfter all, even if we objectively observe several \"universes,\" how do we know whether these represent subdivisions of a universe, or additions into a multiverse?\n\nWe don't. The \"Author\" has the final say, and can therefore hand out the incarnations as he sees fit.\n\nOn 12/17/2010 6:52 AM, Andrew Mason wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "(I don't think most people, including Catholic theologians, would be shocked\nby the notion of Incarnations on differnet planets of our universe\neither...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That is the basis of the (in some circles) well-known Christmas hymn\n'Every star shall sing a carol', by Sidney Carter.\n\nOn the other hand it is firmly rejected by C.S. Lewis, who seems OK\nwith the idea of different incarnations in different universes.\n\nNone of which, of course, proves anything about Wolfe. I agree that\nyour reading is the simplest; it fits in with the fact that Severian's\nworld has a past very (incredibly) like our own, and the clear\nexistence of a Christianity-analogue there. These can be explained in\nother ways; but to insist that they must be seems to me to turn on a\ntheological assumption that it's not clear Wolfe shares. I'm inclined\nto share it myself; but manifestly not everyone does, so I don't\ninsist on it as a principle of interpretation.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-17T20:14:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<441267.80931.qm@web84104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, just because it doesn't exist yet doesn't mean that it won't. But I\nagree that it is a product of Briah in Severian's past." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 12:11 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nIt's NOT a contemporary painting---it doesn't exist in this universe, as\nfar as anyone here has been able to discover. Therefore, it is a product of\nBriah in Severian's past.\n\n--- On *Fri, 12/17/10, Son of Witz * wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Son of Witz \n\nSubject: Re: (urth) Key to the Universe\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, December 17, 2010, 12:52 PM\n\n\nThird. I've really been chewing over the Apollo moon landing painting.\nWe all seem to take it on face value that it is Neil or Buzz, an obvious\nnod to the extreme distance of time between Urth and Earth. But really, the\ntext does not disambiguate this depiction, so we have to admit that it may\nNOT ACTUALLY be a painting of the Apollo Moon Landing. It may be a photo of\nan Urth empire astronaut pre-moon forrestation. Wolfe may be giving us a\ndouble mind-fuck!\n\nI used to assume that this painting and a green moon clearly indicated that\nEarth was in Urth's past, whithin the creation of Briah. I don't think that\nis a necessary conclusion now. If a verdant lune is a creation of\nurthlings, it is conceivable that without their tendings, the moon could go\nback to being barren, and thus we would see our barren moon despite it once\nhaving had a forrest.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<760d11a91795732f99b13d5df11a1758@imap.io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton IO", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-17T20:22:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<0164D145-EA1E-48EA-8543-2326B1CEF021@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 09:52:55 -0800, Son of Witz\n wrote:\nThird. I've really been chewing over the Apollo moon landing painting.\nWe all seem to take it on face value that it is Neil or Buzz, an obvious\nnod to the extreme distance of time between Urth and Earth. But really,\nthe text does not disambiguate this depiction, so we have to admit that\nit\nmay NOT ACTUALLY be a painting of the Apollo Moon Landing. It may be a\nphoto of an Urth empire astronaut pre-moon forrestation. Wolfe may be\ngiving us a double mind-fuck!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A couple years ago I looked and could not find any actual photo from the\nApollo missions that replicated the scene described. \n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-17T20:38:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<441267.80931.qm@web84104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I stand by my presumption that Urth and Earth are the same planet but created during different Divine Years.\n\nHowever, I'll make one little bone... it is never articulated as a \"painting\", as far as I can remember. And Rudesind is the \"picture\" cleaner, meaning many of these may be and probably are, photographs.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 17, 2010, at 3:11 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nIt's NOT a contemporary painting---it doesn't exist in this universe, as far as anyone here has been able to discover. Therefore, it is a product of Briah in Severian's past.\n\n--- On Fri, 12/17/10, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) Key to the Universe" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5406EB5B-65DA-4470-BFD9-F5B95CABF526@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-17T20:38:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": "<13859D0C-A1B7-4B52-8892-EB143A377812@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, my point was that we have a book that crossed from one creation to the other, so we may have other things, which may be the Astronaut Painting, which is NOT a photo, so it's not impotant that no one can pinpoint it. I think it's likely that it SHOULD be understood as an Earth Astronaut with a USA flag, beacuse Wolfe was the script supervisor on the (aborted) Innovation Comics adaptation. The image shown is as I describe. I think he would have vetoed that if it was wrong.\n\nBut it doesn't address incarnation, which is why I changed the subject. I was breaking a tangent off from the Christ discussion.\n\nAlso, Master Ultan says that the library houses \"books cased in perfumed woods shipped across the inconceivable gulf between creations - books doubly precious because no one on Urth can read them.\"\n\nSo I'm saying each creation, acording to the text, is not a closed system." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 17, 2010, at 12:14 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nDavid,\n\nI think Mike's point was that, if the tome we have all read made it from one divine year to another, then so, too, could a painting of an astronaut.\n\nI may have the wrong of it.\n\nRegardless, I'm of the opinion that:\n\nDivine Year X = Earth\nDivine Year Y = Urth\n\nwhere X and Y are not sequential, as I'm still not sure if I/we know which came first.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Dec 17, 2010, at 3:07 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How does your quote support your conclusions? How does it address incarnations?\n\nNo one has suggested that paintings of astronauts survived the death of universes.\n\n--- On Fri, 12/17/10, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nFrom: Ryan Dunn \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Outsider\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, December 17, 2010, 11:02 AM\n\nI would argue that it is very important to take anything Malrubius teaches Severian to heart within the realm of BotNS. Here may be the single most important thing Malrubius explained...\n\n\"Just as a flower blooms, throws down its seed, dies, and rises from its seed to bloom again, so the universe we know diffuses itself to nullity in the infinitude of space, gathers its fragments (which because of the curvature of that space meet at last where they began) and from that seed blooms again. Each such cycle of flowering and decay marks a divine year.\n\nAs the flower that comes is like the flower from which it came, so the universe that comes repeats the one whose ruin was its origin; and this is as true of its finer features as of its grosser ones: The worlds that arise are not unlike the worlds that perished, and are peopled by similar races, though just as the flower evolves from summer to summer, all things advance by some minute step.\n\nIn a certain divine year (a time truly inconceivable to us, though that cycle of the universes was but one in an endless succession), a race was born that was so like to ours that Master Malrubius did not scruple to call it human. It expanded among the galaxies of its universe even as we are said to have done in the remote past, when Urth was, for a time, the center, or at least the home and symbol, of an empire.\n\nThese men encountered many beings on other worlds who had intelligence to some degree, or at least the potential for intelligence, and from them that they might have comrades in the loneliness between the galaxies and allies among their swarming worlds they formed beings like themselves.\n\nIt was not done swiftly or easily. Uncountable billions suffered and died under their guiding hands, leaving ineradicable memories of pain and blood. When their universe was old, and galaxy so far separated from galaxy that the nearest could not be seen even as faint stars, and the ships were steered thence by ancient records alone, the thing was done. Completed, the work was greater than those who began it could have guessed. What had been made was not a new race like Humanity's, but a race such as Humanity wished its own to be: united, compassionate, just.\n\nI was not told what became of the Humanity of that cycle. Perhaps it survived until the implosion of the universe, then perished with it. Perhaps it evolved beyond our recognition. But the beings Humanity had shaped into what men and women wished to be escaped, opening a passage to Yesod, the universe higher than our own, where they created worlds suited to what they had become. From that vantage point they look both forward and back, and in so looking they have discovered us. Perhaps we are no more than a race like that who shaped them. Perhaps it was we who shaped them ?or our sons or our fathers. Malrubius said he did not know, and I believe he told the truth. However it may be, they shape us now as they themselves were shaped; it is at once their repayment and their revenge.\"\n\n(Citadel of the Autarch, c.34 - \"The Key to the Universe\")\n\nWith the entire obliteration of a universe, we cannot assume that pictures of astronauts from Earth carried over from one divine year to the next. This universe is, at best, a refined mirror image of Earth, but in this Urth, there were once astronauts very like Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong. One would stand to reason there is a God (Increate) and a Christ figure (Conciliator?).\n\nWhether Urth is in a divine year before or after Earth is a different question all together, but Wolfe clearly outlines that a divine year includes the death of one universe and the blossoming of another.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Dec 17, 2010, at 7:52 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think it is unnecessary to study too closely the question of incarnations and universes. Seems to me that the question of how many incarnations can fit into the multiverse depends far more on one's sense of a \"universe\" than on one's theology. Lewis is bound to think differently from Wolfe, and so on. At one point we discussed this on the planetary level (specifically, Wolfe's Christmas story set on another planet).\n\nRecall that \"universe\" was once commonly taken to refer to our galaxy alone; now we know how much bigger the universe is than we thought a mere 100 years ago. And theories of its construction have advanced tremendously as well.\n\nAfter all, even if we objectively observe several \"universes,\" how do we know whether these represent subdivisions of a universe, or additions into a multiverse?\n\nWe don't. The \"Author\" has the final say, and can therefore hand out the incarnations as he sees fit.\n\nOn 12/17/2010 6:52 AM, Andrew Mason wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "(I don't think most people, including Catholic theologians, would be shocked\nby the notion of Incarnations on differnet planets of our universe\neither...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "That is the basis of the (in some circles) well-known Christmas hymn\n'Every star shall sing a carol', by Sidney Carter.\n\nOn the other hand it is firmly rejected by C.S. Lewis, who seems OK\nwith the idea of different incarnations in different universes.\n\nNone of which, of course, proves anything about Wolfe. I agree that\nyour reading is the simplest; it fits in with the fact that Severian's\nworld has a past very (incredibly) like our own, and the clear\nexistence of a Christianity-analogue there. These can be explained in\nother ways; but to insist that they must be seems to me to turn on a\ntheological assumption that it's not clear Wolfe shares. I'm inclined\nto share it myself; but manifestly not everyone does, so I don't\ninsist on it as a principle of interpretation.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-17T20:51:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton- A couple years ago I looked and could not find any actual photo from the Apollo \nmissions that replicated the scene described. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHeh, funny. Same here.\n \nIf we envision the sequential universes as an ascending spiral, or maybe stacked toroids, as \nSon ofa Witz suggested, it would be easy to envision a portal linking the adjacent coils or donut \nrings. Maybe like an Inire/Hethor mirror?\n \nI don't think we're given enough information to know how, but it seems clear there is some way for\nstuff from Earth to have made it to Urth (I suppose some would argue it is simply longevity).\n \nSome of the stuff could be just Urthly versions of Earth stuff, like the moon astronaut. But some\nseem too perfectly Earthian to be seen that way. I think Jonas' literary allusions are the best example.\nHis Alice/Looking Glass quote and him supplying the Earth/Theseus ending to Severian's story \"proves\" to \nme that he (robot form) has either been to Earth or, more likely, spent significant time with true Earth books. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<451026.46125.qm@web84107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-17T21:05:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, thanks Witz. I love this stuff, and have never heard of it. This site looks remarkable.\nIt's not the world's first temple, however, though it may be the world's oldest (and it is in a good location for that). The first temples were built of materials that did not last---like wood.\n\n--- On Fri, 12/17/10, Pedro Pereira wrote:\n\nFrom: Pedro Pereira \nSubject: Re: (urth) Key to the Universe\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Friday, December 17, 2010, 2:25 PM\n\n\n\n\n\n \nThanks. \n\nPedro\n\n\n\n\n\nFrom: Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org\nDate: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 11:14:58 -0800\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Key to the Universe\n\n\n\n\n\n\nOn Dec 17, 2010, at 10:50 AM, Pedro Pereira wrote:\n\n\n\n\nAnd which structures are those?\n\n\n\n\nI'm no expert on this stuff, and I don't want to derail the thread with a tangent.\nOne interesting one is Gobekli Tepe in Turkey. “There are also several underwater structures that have been uncovered in the last 15 years that are dated 10,000 years old and are have enormous stone blocks of several hundred tons.”\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nFrom: Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org\nDate: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 09:52:55 -0800\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Key to the Universe\n\n\nOn Dec 17, 2010, at 8:02 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\n\n\n\n??The last decade has uncovered so many massive structures that could not seemingly have been made by the hunter-gatherers who are supposed to have built them, that Erich Von Daniken looks less like a quack then he did thirty years ago when his work was dismissed as not having enough evidence. ?The more we look back, the more it looks like our civilzation is built over one vastly older civilization that was burried in a deluge. ?(none of which is to say I believe that BotNS is TRUE or something.)\n\n\n~witz?\n_______________________________________________ Urth Mailing List To post, write urth at urth.net Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0BD0C8.1050509@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-17T21:06:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman-\nSome of the stuff could be just Urthly versions of Earth stuff, like the moon astronaut. But some\nseem too perfectly Earthian to be seen that way. I think Jonas' literary allusions are the best example.\nHis Alice/Looking Glass quote and him supplying the Earth/Theseus ending to Severian's story \"proves\" to\nme that he (robot form) has either been to Earth or, more likely, spent significant time with true Earth books. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm probably just old-fashioned --a meat and potatoes SF guy-- but I \nfind it really unappealing that Neil Armstrong is not in Severian's \nchronological past. Part of the fun of that scene for me is the way the \nperception of symbols change due to Time.\n\nI'm quite aware that this sort of \"aesthetic blowback\" always annoys me \nwhen I confront it with _my_ theories, but there it is.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39919.69965.qm@web84101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-17T21:39:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": "<13859D0C-A1B7-4B52-8892-EB143A377812@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "it's certainly a valid point, although not every object gets to be carried into space to the end/beginning of the universe by the Conciliator to be cast into the fuligin void.\n\n--- On Fri, 12/17/10, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nFrom: Ryan Dunn \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Outsider\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, December 17, 2010, 3:14 PM\n\nDavid,\nI think Mike's point was that, if the tome we have all read made it from one divine year to another, then so, too, could a painting of an astronaut.\nI may have the wrong of it.\nRegardless, I'm of the opinion that:\nDivine Year X = EarthDivine Year Y = Urth\nwhere X and Y are not sequential, as I'm still not sure if I/we know which came first.\n...ryan\n\nOn Dec 17, 2010, at 3:07 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nHow does your quote support your conclusions? How does it address incarnations?\nNo one has suggested that paintings of astronauts survived the death of universes.\n\n--- On Fri, 12/17/10, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nFrom: Ryan Dunn \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Outsider\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, December 17, 2010, 11:02 AM\n\nI would argue that it is very important to take anything Malrubius teaches Severian to heart within the realm of BotNS. Here may be the single most important thing Malrubius explained...\n\"Just as a flower blooms, throws down its seed, dies, and rises from its\n seed to bloom again, so the universe we know diffuses itself to nullity in the?infinitude of space, gathers its fragments (which because of the curvature of that space meet at last where they began) and from that seed blooms again.?Each such cycle of flowering and decay marks a divine year.\nAs the flower that comes is like the flower from which it came, so the universe that comes repeats the one whose ruin was its origin; and this is as true of its finer features as of its grosser ones: The worlds that arise are not unlike the worlds that perished, and are peopled by similar races, though just as the flower evolves from summer to summer, all things advance by some minute step.\nIn a certain divine year (a time truly inconceivable to us, though that cycle of the universes was but one in an endless succession), a race was born that was so like to ours that Master Malrubius did not\n scruple to call it human. It expanded among the galaxies of its universe even as we are said to have done in the remote past, when Urth was, for a time, the center, or at least the home and symbol, of an empire.\nThese men encountered many beings on other worlds who had intelligence to some degree, or at least the potential for intelligence, and from them that?they might have comrades in the loneliness between the galaxies and allies among their swarming worlds they formed beings like themselves.\nIt was not done swiftly or easily. Uncountable billions suffered and died under their guiding hands, leaving ineradicable memories of pain and blood.?When their universe was old, and galaxy so far separated from galaxy that the nearest could not be seen even as faint stars, and the ships were steered thence by ancient records alone, the thing was done. Completed, the work was greater than those who began it could\n have guessed. What had been made was not a new race like Humanity's, but a race such as Humanity wished its own to be: united, compassionate, just.\nI was not told what became of the Humanity of that cycle. Perhaps it survived until the implosion of the universe, then perished with it. Perhaps it evolved beyond our recognition. But the beings Humanity had shaped into what men and women wished to be escaped, opening a passage to Yesod, the universe higher than our own, where they created worlds suited to what they had become.?From that vantage point they look both forward and back, and in so looking they have discovered us. Perhaps we are no more than a race like that who shaped them. Perhaps it was we who shaped them ?or our sons or our fathers. Malrubius said he did not know, and I believe he told the truth. However it may be, they shape us now as they themselves were shaped; it is at once their\n repayment and their revenge.\"\n(Citadel of the Autarch, c.34 - \"The Key to the Universe\")\nWith the entire obliteration of a universe, we cannot assume that pictures of astronauts from Earth carried over from one divine year to the next. This universe is, at best, a refined mirror image of Earth, but in this Urth, there were once astronauts very like Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong. One would stand to reason there is a God (Increate) and a Christ figure (Conciliator?).\nWhether Urth is in a divine year before or after Earth is a different question all together, but Wolfe clearly outlines that a divine year includes the death of one universe and the blossoming of another.\n...ryan\n\nOn Dec 17, 2010, at 7:52 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI think it is unnecessary to study too closely the question of incarnations and universes. Seems to me that the question of how many incarnations can fit into the multiverse depends far more on one's sense of a \"universe\" than on one's theology. Lewis is bound to think differently from Wolfe, and so on. At one point we discussed this on the planetary level (specifically, Wolfe's Christmas story set on another planet).\n\nRecall that \"universe\" was once commonly ?taken to refer to our galaxy alone; now we know how much bigger the universe is than we thought a mere 100 years ago. And theories of its construction have advanced tremendously as well.\n\nAfter all, even if we objectively observe several \"universes,\" how do we know whether these represent subdivisions of a universe, or additions into a multiverse?\n\nWe don't. The \"Author\" has the final say, and can therefore hand out the incarnations as he sees fit.\n\nOn\n 12/17/2010 6:52 AM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nGerry Quinn wrote:\n\n(I don't think most people, including Catholic theologians, would be shocked\nby the notion of Incarnations on differnet planets of our universe\neither...)\nThat is the basis of the (in some circles) well-known Christmas hymn\n'Every star shall sing a carol', by Sidney Carter.\n\nOn the other hand it is firmly rejected by C.S. Lewis, who seems OK\nwith the idea of different incarnations in different\n universes.\n\nNone of which, of course, proves anything about Wolfe. I agree that\nyour reading is the simplest; it fits in with the fact that Severian's\nworld has a past very (incredibly) like our own, and the clear\nexistence of a Christianity-analogue there. These can be explained in\nother ways; but to insist that they must be seems to me to turn on a\ntheological assumption that it's not clear Wolfe shares. I'm inclined\nto share it myself; but manifestly not everyone does, so I don't\ninsist on it as a principle of interpretation." } ] }, { "message_id": "<181526.19707.qm@web84108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-17T21:41:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's no doubt that Urth is Earth in some physical sense.\n\n--- On Fri, 12/17/10, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nFrom: Ryan Dunn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Key to the Universe\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, December 17, 2010, 3:38 PM\n\nI stand by my presumption that Urth and Earth are the same planet but created during different Divine Years.\nHowever, I'll make one little bone... it is never articulated as a \"painting\", as far as I can remember. And Rudesind is the \"picture\" cleaner, meaning many of these may be and probably are, photographs.\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-17T21:42:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<181526.19707.qm@web84108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff- The first temples were built of materials that did not last---like wood." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nShazam! This is part of the anthropological lesson being taught to David and #5 by Mr. Million \nin the first few pages of the first Wolfe story (novella) I ever read. That's when I knew he \nwould become one of my favorite authors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn- I'm probably just old-fashioned --a meat and potatoes SF guy-- but I \nfind it really unappealing that Neil Armstrong is not in Severian's \nchronological past. Part of the fun of that scene for me is the way the \nperception of symbols change due to Time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYep, I was aware of which side of this debate you find yourself on, James. Myself, I am interested\nin the way symbols change culture to culture (which is a function of both geography and time).\nSo, Urth being a different world than Earth has some appeal to me in that regard. (likewise I \ncare about societal differences like \"vines\" and \"lianas\", heh).\n \nBut I don't think you should change your position. It isn't centrally important, IMHO. And if Wolfe \nreading ever stops being fun, we might as well all pack it in and quit.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<992115.57023.qm@web84102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-17T21:44:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": "<5406EB5B-65DA-4470-BFD9-F5B95CABF526@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That line is ambiguous, but I conservatively read that as meaning \"between suns.\" In other words, a \"creation\" is a world in that case, not a universe.\nPerhaps a survey of Severian's use of that term is in order.\n\n--- On Fri, 12/17/10, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Outsider\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, December 17, 2010, 3:38 PM\n\n\nYes, my point was that we have a book that crossed from one creation to the other, so we may have other things, which may be the Astronaut Painting, which is NOT a photo, so it's not impotant that no one can pinpoint it. ?I think it's likely that it SHOULD be understood as an Earth Astronaut with a USA flag, beacuse Wolfe was the script supervisor on the (aborted) Innovation Comics adaptation. The image shown is as I describe. I think he would have vetoed that if it was wrong.\nBut it doesn't address incarnation, which is why I changed the subject. I was breaking a tangent off from the Christ discussion.\nAlso, Master Ultan says that the library houses \"books cased in perfumed woods shipped across the inconceivable gulf between creations - books doubly precious because no one on Urth can read them.\"\nSo I'm saying each creation, acording to the text, is not a closed system." } ] }, { "message_id": "<792639.46457.qm@web84104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-17T21:53:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<4D0BD0C8.1050509@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know what you mean.\nOn one hand, the Alice quote is a legitimate literary allusion. On the other hand, Jonas quotes it.\nIt appears that Urth has tracked Earth unnervingly closely in some ways. But if you look at the Jungle Room, where apparently historical characters appear anachronistically, perhaps there are serious differences, proving that there can be serious differences.\n\n--- On Fri, 12/17/10, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Key to the Universe\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, December 17, 2010, 4:06 PM\nLee Berman-\nSome of the stuff could be just Urthly versions of Earth stuff, like the moon astronaut. But some\nseem too perfectly Earthian to be seen that way. I think Jonas' literary allusions are the best example.\nHis Alice/Looking Glass quote and him supplying the Earth/Theseus ending to Severian's story \"proves\" to\nme that he (robot form) has either been to Earth or, more likely, spent significant time with true Earth books. ??? ???????? ?????? ??? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm probably just old-fashioned --a meat and potatoes SF guy-- but I find it really unappealing that Neil Armstrong is not in Severian's chronological past. Part of the fun of that scene for me is the way the perception of symbols change due to Time.\n\nI'm quite aware that this sort of \"aesthetic blowback\" always annoys me when I confront it with _my_ theories, but there it is.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<202259.12670.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-17T22:08:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<4D0BD0C8.1050509@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm with you James. For me, the whole fun of that scene is that WE know what the \npicture is, but they don't. It's another case where all the puzzling over the \npuzzle seems to shrug off what that scene does for the story in terms of \nestablishing the depth of history/\"Dying Earth\" attitude. But, like you say, \nthat \"aesthetic blowback\" subjective stuff and likely unconvincing to those who \ndon't feel the same way.\n\nAs for other examples of \"our Earth,\" there's also Dr. Talos' recognition of the \nFrankenstein story and the host of quotations/misquotations in his play.\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: James Wynn \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Fri, December 17, 2010 3:06:16 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Key to the Universe\nLee Berman-\nSome of the stuff could be just Urthly versions of Earth stuff, like the moon \nastronaut. But some\nseem too perfectly Earthian to be seen that way. I think Jonas' literary \nallusions are the best example.\nHis Alice/Looking Glass quote and him supplying the Earth/Theseus ending to \nSeverian's story \"proves\" to\nme that he (robot form) has either been to Earth or, more likely, spent \nsignificant time with true Earth books. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm probably just old-fashioned --a meat and potatoes SF guy-- but I find it \nreally unappealing that Neil Armstrong is not in Severian's chronological past. \nPart of the fun of that scene for me is the way the perception of symbols change \ndue to Time.\n\nI'm quite aware that this sort of \"aesthetic blowback\" always annoys me when I \nconfront it with _my_ theories, but there it is.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2906FABE-37AC-49D3-9124-5360BD2E078E@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-18T01:32:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<451026.46125.qm@web84107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 17, 2010, at 1:05 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nYes, thanks Witz. I love this stuff, and have never heard of it. This site looks remarkable.\n\nIt's not the world's first temple, however, though it may be the world's oldest (and it is in a good location for that). The first temples were built of materials that did not last---like wood." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I love it too.\nReally, check out that Ancient Aliens History Channel show. Even if the theories are wacko, the \"evidentiary\" meat is fun to chew on and the interviewees are sorta hilarious. They detail out all this crazy archeological stuff.\n\nI HATE how they are always calling the oldest the \" first\". Haven't scientists had to eat crow on that stuff enough to know better by now? They are gonna keep rolling things back the more they dig!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-18T01:35:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": "<992115.57023.qm@web84102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True, it may mean between suns. But I'd wager Ultan is learned enough to choose his words carefully, and would likely know as much about this stuff as Malrubius's aquastor. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 17, 2010, at 1:44 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nThat line is ambiguous, but I conservatively read that as meaning \"between suns.\" In other words, a \"creation\" is a world in that case, not a universe. \n\nPerhaps a survey of Severian's use of that term is in order.\n\n--- On Fri, 12/17/10, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Outsider\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, December 17, 2010, 3:38 PM\n\n\nYes, my point was that we have a book that crossed from one creation to the other, so we may have other things, which may be the Astronaut Painting, which is NOT a photo, so it's not impotant that no one can pinpoint it. I think it's likely that it SHOULD be understood as an Earth Astronaut with a USA flag, beacuse Wolfe was the script supervisor on the (aborted) Innovation Comics adaptation. The image shown is as I describe. I think he would have vetoed that if it was wrong.\n\nBut it doesn't address incarnation, which is why I changed the subject. I was breaking a tangent off from the Christ discussion.\n\nAlso, Master Ultan says that the library houses \"books cased in perfumed woods shipped across the inconceivable gulf between creations - books doubly precious because no one on Urth can read them.\"\n\nSo I'm saying each creation, acording to the text, is not a closed system.\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8FEF75D6-2B39-40F3-AF60-D1177F60AE58@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-18T01:43:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<202259.12670.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. I much prefer it to be a painting from Urth's past, which was, I prefer to think, in the same creation, about thirty thousand years before, with no intervening deluge.\n\nRe: stacked toroids. Nah, I mean ONE torus. History is a path that cycles around the surface endlessly. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 17, 2010, at 2:08 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nI'm with you James. For me, the whole fun of that scene is that WE know what the \npicture is, but they don't. It's another case where all the puzzling over the \npuzzle seems to shrug off what that scene does for the story in terms of \nestablishing the depth of history/\"Dying Earth\" attitude. But, like you say, \nthat \"aesthetic blowback\" subjective stuff and likely unconvincing to those who \ndon't feel the same way.\n\nAs for other examples of \"our Earth,\" there's also Dr. Talos' recognition of the \nFrankenstein story and the host of quotations/misquotations in his play.\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: James Wynn \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Fri, December 17, 2010 3:06:16 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Key to the Universe" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman-\nSome of the stuff could be just Urthly versions of Earth stuff, like the moon \nastronaut. But some\nseem too perfectly Earthian to be seen that way. I think Jonas' literary \nallusions are the best example.\nHis Alice/Looking Glass quote and him supplying the Earth/Theseus ending to \nSeverian's story \"proves\" to\nme that he (robot form) has either been to Earth or, more likely, spent \nsignificant time with true Earth books. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm probably just old-fashioned --a meat and potatoes SF guy-- but I find it \nreally unappealing that Neil Armstrong is not in Severian's chronological past. \nPart of the fun of that scene for me is the way the perception of symbols change \ndue to Time.\n\nI'm quite aware that this sort of \"aesthetic blowback\" always annoys me when I \nconfront it with _my_ theories, but there it is.\n\nu+16b9\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0C6015.5060006@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-18T07:17:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": "<5406EB5B-65DA-4470-BFD9-F5B95CABF526@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/17/2010 2:38 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nAlso, Master Ultan says that the library houses \"books cased in perfumed\nwoods shipped across the inconceivable gulf between creations - books\ndoubly precious because no one on Urth can read them.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is almost certainly an indirect reference to Kant, who used the \nterm \"island universes\" when conjecturing that spiral nebula were not \nmerely clouds of gas but galaxies like our own Milky Way. The Yesodis \nalso use \"creation\" to mean \"galaxy\", and have a literal island devoted \nto each one humans inhabit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So I'm saying each creation, acording to the text, is not a closed system." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is still true, but there's much less interchange between \nmanvantaras than is otherwise suggested between Urth and Earth by G.W." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0C62DF.2060308@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-18T07:29:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<792639.46457.qm@web84104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/17/2010 3:53 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nI know what you mean.\n\nOn one hand, the Alice quote is a legitimate literary allusion. On the\nother hand, Jonas quotes it.\n\nIt appears that Urth has tracked Earth unnervingly closely in some ways.\nBut if you look at the Jungle Room, where apparently historical\ncharacters appear anachronistically, perhaps there are serious\ndifferences, proving that there can be serious differences." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Remember, in the BOTNS, time proceeds only mostly linearly, with many \nloops and echoes backwards and possibly forewards. If we take other \nmetafictional hints in the BOTNS, the universe(s) described in the Book \nare themselves book-like, proceeding from draft to draft with the best \nlines and tropes congealing around the plot skeleton. The Increate, \noutside of time, fiddles with manuscript, keeping some elements while \nrearranging others, and trying to work in His favored set pieces like \nthe Flood where He can." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0C6454.50603@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-18T07:35:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/17/2010 7:35 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nTrue, it may mean between suns. But I'd wager Ultan is learned enough to\nchoose his words carefully, and would likely know as much about this\nstuff as Malrubius's aquastor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see any way for Ultan to know about Yesodi-level goings on and \nyet feel free to share it so casually with someone he can't positively \nidentify." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1E87845B-4E09-41EC-9261-07DBC801A86F@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-18T07:37:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": "<4D0C6015.5060006@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 17, 2010, at 11:17 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 12/17/2010 2:38 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also, Master Ultan says that the library houses \"books cased in perfumed\nwoods shipped across the inconceivable gulf between creations - books\ndoubly precious because no one on Urth can read them.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is almost certainly an indirect reference to Kant, who used the term \"island universes\" when conjecturing that spiral nebula were not merely clouds of gas but galaxies like our own Milky Way. The Yesodis also use \"creation\" to mean \"galaxy\", and have a literal island devoted to each one humans inhabit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So I'm saying each creation, acording to the text, is not a closed system." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is still true, but there's much less interchange between manvantaras than is otherwise suggested between Urth and Earth by G.W.\n\n-- " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm cool with all that." } ] }, { "message_id": "<693DE88B-A639-4E9E-816C-93EFB5D974E6@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-18T07:38:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<4D0C62DF.2060308@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 17, 2010, at 11:29 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 12/17/2010 3:53 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I know what you mean.\n\nOn one hand, the Alice quote is a legitimate literary allusion. On the\nother hand, Jonas quotes it.\n\nIt appears that Urth has tracked Earth unnervingly closely in some ways.\nBut if you look at the Jungle Room, where apparently historical\ncharacters appear anachronistically, perhaps there are serious\ndifferences, proving that there can be serious differences." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Remember, in the BOTNS, time proceeds only mostly linearly, with many loops and echoes backwards and possibly forewards. If we take other metafictional hints in the BOTNS, the universe(s) described in the Book are themselves book-like, proceeding from draft to draft with the best lines and tropes congealing around the plot skeleton. The Increate, outside of time, fiddles with manuscript, keeping some elements while rearranging others, and trying to work in His favored set pieces like the Flood where He can.\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thats the shit right there, Jeff!\nNail on the head." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-18T16:16:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<693DE88B-A639-4E9E-816C-93EFB5D974E6@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, Master Ultan says that the library houses \"books cased in perfumed\nwoods shipped across the inconceivable gulf between creations" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThis sounds so much like description of manvantaras by Malrubius I feel one has\nto perform contortions to avoid the connection." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "there's much less interchange between \nmanvantaras than is otherwise suggested between Urth and Earth by G.W." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nI could accept this better if I thought Wolfe wrote BotNS primarily to create a \nstrange, alien planet so different from our own. Instead this is a planet tightly\nallusionally bound to our own so there must be significant connections between the\ntwo planets. It could be that is a result of Urth being future Earth and has nothing \nto do with alternate manvantaras. But if that were true, why would WOlfe dwell on the \nmultiple universe theme so strongly? What purpose to make Malrubius' story and UotNS the \n\"big reveal\" if it reveals nothing about the main story? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see any way for Ultan to know about Yesodi-level goings on and yet feel free \nto share it so casually with someone he can't positively identify." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nI do. But this is because I am not willing to default to the assumption that Ultan is just a\nthrow-away character: show up, reference Borges, then disappear forever in the story.\nWeird things are going on with him. Gnostic symbolism, as has recently been discussed. The\nwoman from the coffin is seen in his face. His hunger for the knowledge of the dead, etc.\n \nWe have the example of Cyriaca's \"uncle\" casually sharing the secrets of the universe with\nher (then Cyriaca casually sharing them with Severian and us). As, noted before, I see a thematic\nconnection between Ultan and this book-loving \"uncle\" and his Library story. This connects them \nboth to a guy who seems to be almost everywhere.\n \n[FWIW, I strongly suspect Cyriaca to be Severian's aunt, sister of Catherine; both dark-haired, \nfailed Pelerines. Both sentenced to strangulation for adultery. Thus the resemblance of Ultan to \nthe woman in the coffin] \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<3AB6E4C7-BB56-4920-9614-E3BBD5E29614@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-18T16:30:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": "<4D0C6454.50603@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 17, 2010, at 11:35 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 12/17/2010 7:35 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "True, it may mean between suns. But I'd wager Ultan is learned enough to\nchoose his words carefully, and would likely know as much about this\nstuff as Malrubius's aquastor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see any way for Ultan to know about Yesodi-level goings on and yet feel free to share it so casually with someone he can't positively identify." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well...\n\nAre we convinced that Severian going to Ultan isn't part of his being steered?\nDo we take Ultan at face value when he just knows, off the top of his head, that a book is leaning in such a way on such a shelf, even when he's been blind for years and his apprentice has no idea about? This is a book that seems soooooooo important to Severian that he carries it through the entire BotNS. It is plausible that this is a truly random event, but NOTHING else about Severian's life, or the tasks he's assigned, seems random at all, so it is just as likely, perhaps more likely, that Ultan has had a hand in shaping him.\n\nThis book is treacherous." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0CE3A8.3090700@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-18T16:39:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<4D0C62DF.2060308@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well put." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/18/2010 2:29 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 12/17/2010 3:53 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I know what you mean.\n\nOn one hand, the Alice quote is a legitimate literary allusion. On the\nother hand, Jonas quotes it.\n\nIt appears that Urth has tracked Earth unnervingly closely in some ways.\nBut if you look at the Jungle Room, where apparently historical\ncharacters appear anachronistically, perhaps there are serious\ndifferences, proving that there can be serious differences." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Remember, in the BOTNS, time proceeds only mostly linearly, with many \nloops and echoes backwards and possibly forewards. If we take other \nmetafictional hints in the BOTNS, the universe(s) described in the \nBook are themselves book-like, proceeding from draft to draft with the \nbest lines and tropes congealing around the plot skeleton. The \nIncreate, outside of time, fiddles with manuscript, keeping some \nelements while rearranging others, and trying to work in His favored \nset pieces like the Flood where He can." } ] }, { "message_id": "<146550.34908.qm@web37601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-18T16:45:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": "<3AB6E4C7-BB56-4920-9614-E3BBD5E29614@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Witz said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is a book that seems soooooooo important to Severian that he carries it \nthrough the entire BotNS. It is plausible that this is a truly random event, \nbut NOTHING else about >>Severian's life, or the tasks he's assigned, seems \nrandom at all, so it is just as likely, perhaps more likely, that Ultan has had \na hand in shaping him.\n\nThis book is treacherous." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Allow me some total speculation. You've been warned.\n\nUltan, of course, talks about the The Book of Gold, and the circumstances in \nwhich to-be-apprenticed librarians is a mystical, mysterious experience. It \ninitiates their initiation.\n\nAnd he uses the word \"christening,\" which can hardly be a careless use on \nWolfe's part, I'd imagine:\n\n\"The child, as I said, in time discovers The Book of Gold. Then the librarians \ncome - like vampires, some say, but others say like the fairy godparents at a \nchristening. They speak to the child, and the child joins them. Henceforth, he \nis in the library wherever he may be, and soon his parents know him no more. I \nsuppose it is much the same among torturers.\"\n\nSo we've got the imagery of dying (vampires) from one life and being reborn into \nanother (vampires, again, and the christening, as well as one's parents not \nknowing one anymore). And there's also the sense that, after you find the book, \nyou're always in that new world, no matter where you are.\n\nThe point: it's very much a conversion story. And it's a conversion story \ncentered on finding a book. \n\n\nSo here the speculation begins: in what sense in Sev's Brown Book perhaps his \nown Book of Gold? (Does he ever call it that later? I can't recall exactly, but \nI thought he might.) But it's also brown, rather than gold. We know it's myths \nthat are true but also corrupted. So in what sense does the Brown Book serve as \na kind of true-but seen \"through a glass darkly\" revelation to Sev of truer \nthings?\n\nAnd when Wolfe also admits that he knows many people have seen New Sun as a Book \nof Gold itself, it seems to fit: it, too, is telling true myths in false ways.\n\nSo it seems like we have a very Christian (if slightly less Catholic) notion of \na book being a guide to revelation. But we also have the very Wolfean idea that \nthe book misleads in all kinds of ways.\n\nIt still seems right, as Witz said, that the book should shape him in a TRUE way \n(apart from the Hiero-folk manipulation). Metaphorically, at least it works. \nMaybe that's just obvious, though...\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Son of Witz \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Sat, December 18, 2010 10:30:22 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Outsider" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 17, 2010, at 11:35 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 12/17/2010 7:35 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "True, it may mean between suns. But I'd wager Ultan is learned enough to\nchoose his words carefully, and would likely know as much about this\nstuff as Malrubius's aquastor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see any way for Ultan to know about Yesodi-level goings on and yet feel \nfree to share it so casually with someone he can't positively identify." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well...\n\nAre we convinced that Severian going to Ultan isn't part of his being steered?\nDo we take Ultan at face value when he just knows, off the top of his head, that \na book is leaning in such a way on such a shelf, even when he's been blind for \nyears and his apprentice has no idea about? This is a book that seems soooooooo \nimportant to Severian that he carries it through the entire BotNS. It is \nplausible that this is a truly random event, but NOTHING else about Severian's \nlife, or the tasks he's assigned, seems random at all, so it is just as likely, \nperhaps more likely, that Ultan has had a hand in shaping him.\n\nThis book is treacherous." } ] }, { "message_id": "<26DAF08D-ABD3-4B4D-88F7-5EE72F6802C9@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-18T21:37:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": "<146550.34908.qm@web37601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 18, 2010, at 8:45 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nWitz said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This is a book that seems soooooooo important to Severian that he carries it \nthrough the entire BotNS. It is plausible that this is a truly random event, \nbut NOTHING else about >>Severian's life, or the tasks he's assigned, seems \nrandom at all, so it is just as likely, perhaps more likely, that Ultan has had \na hand in shaping him.\n\nThis book is treacherous." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Allow me some total speculation. You've been warned.\n\nUltan, of course, talks about the The Book of Gold, and the circumstances in \nwhich to-be-apprenticed librarians is a mystical, mysterious experience. It \ninitiates their initiation.\n\nAnd he uses the word \"christening,\" which can hardly be a careless use on \nWolfe's part, I'd imagine:\n\n\"The child, as I said, in time discovers The Book of Gold. Then the librarians \ncome - like vampires, some say, but others say like the fairy godparents at a \nchristening. They speak to the child, and the child joins them. Henceforth, he \nis in the library wherever he may be, and soon his parents know him no more. I \nsuppose it is much the same among torturers.\"\n\nSo we've got the imagery of dying (vampires) from one life and being reborn into \nanother (vampires, again, and the christening, as well as one's parents not \nknowing one anymore). And there's also the sense that, after you find the book, \nyou're always in that new world, no matter where you are.\n\nThe point: it's very much a conversion story. And it's a conversion story \ncentered on finding a book. \n\n\nSo here the speculation begins: in what sense in Sev's Brown Book perhaps his \nown Book of Gold? (Does he ever call it that later? I can't recall exactly, but \nI thought he might.) But it's also brown, rather than gold. We know it's myths \nthat are true but also corrupted. So in what sense does the Brown Book serve as \na kind of true-but seen \"through a glass darkly\" revelation to Sev of truer \nthings?\n\nAnd when Wolfe also admits that he knows many people have seen New Sun as a Book \nof Gold itself, it seems to fit: it, too, is telling true myths in false ways.\n\nSo it seems like we have a very Christian (if slightly less Catholic) notion of \na book being a guide to revelation. But we also have the very Wolfean idea that \nthe book misleads in all kinds of ways.\n\nIt still seems right, as Witz said, that the book should shape him in a TRUE way \n(apart from the Hiero-folk manipulation). Metaphorically, at least it works. \nMaybe that's just obvious, though..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I dig all that. It truly is his book of gold and his initiation into the myths of Urth's past. Severian himself wonders if his memoir will be someone's Book of Gold. I think it is an apt reading. This scene is definitely an initiation into Urth's intellectual history for Severian. I love that he goes into total darkness before Ultan shows up like a glow worm or something. Recently I watched an excellent animated film, The Secret of Kells, which has had me thinking a lot about how crucial books are during dark ages. This is huge for Sev, moreso because he ends up drowning the library. This makes his re-telling of the stories into his own even more significant. \n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0D2F00.6080607@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-18T22:00:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": "<26DAF08D-ABD3-4B4D-88F7-5EE72F6802C9@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, and recall the naming of Iubar Street.\n\nGood point about Severian drowning the library. Worse than the burning \nof the library at Alexandria." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/18/2010 4:37 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nOn Dec 18, 2010, at 8:45 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Witz said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "This is a book that seems soooooooo important to Severian that he carries it\nthrough the entire BotNS. It is plausible that this is a truly random event,\nbut NOTHING else about>>Severian's life, or the tasks he's assigned, seems\nrandom at all, so it is just as likely, perhaps more likely, that Ultan has had\na hand in shaping him.\n\nThis book is treacherous." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Allow me some total speculation. You've been warned.\n\nUltan, of course, talks about the The Book of Gold, and the circumstances in\nwhich to-be-apprenticed librarians is a mystical, mysterious experience. It\ninitiates their initiation.\n\nAnd he uses the word \"christening,\" which can hardly be a careless use on\nWolfe's part, I'd imagine:\n\n\"The child, as I said, in time discovers The Book of Gold. Then the librarians\ncome - like vampires, some say, but others say like the fairy godparents at a\nchristening. They speak to the child, and the child joins them. Henceforth, he\nis in the library wherever he may be, and soon his parents know him no more. I\nsuppose it is much the same among torturers.\"\n\nSo we've got the imagery of dying (vampires) from one life and being reborn into\nanother (vampires, again, and the christening, as well as one's parents not\nknowing one anymore). And there's also the sense that, after you find the book,\nyou're always in that new world, no matter where you are.\n\nThe point: it's very much a conversion story. And it's a conversion story\ncentered on finding a book.\n\n\nSo here the speculation begins: in what sense in Sev's Brown Book perhaps his\nown Book of Gold? (Does he ever call it that later? I can't recall exactly, but\nI thought he might.) But it's also brown, rather than gold. We know it's myths\nthat are true but also corrupted. So in what sense does the Brown Book serve as\na kind of true-but seen \"through a glass darkly\" revelation to Sev of truer\nthings?\n\nAnd when Wolfe also admits that he knows many people have seen New Sun as a Book\nof Gold itself, it seems to fit: it, too, is telling true myths in false ways.\n\nSo it seems like we have a very Christian (if slightly less Catholic) notion of\na book being a guide to revelation. But we also have the very Wolfean idea that\nthe book misleads in all kinds of ways.\n\nIt still seems right, as Witz said, that the book should shape him in a TRUE way\n(apart from the Hiero-folk manipulation). Metaphorically, at least it works.\nMaybe that's just obvious, though..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I dig all that. It truly is his book of gold and his initiation into the myths of Urth's past. Severian himself wonders if his memoir will be someone's Book of Gold. I think it is an apt reading. This scene is definitely an initiation into Urth's intellectual history for Severian. I love that he goes into total darkness before Ultan shows up like a glow worm or something. Recently I watched an excellent animated film, The Secret of Kells, which has had me thinking a lot about how crucial books are during dark ages. This is huge for Sev, moreso because he ends up drowning the library. This makes his re-telling of the stories into his own even more significant.\n~witz\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0D3AB2.5050109@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-18T22:50:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/18/2010 10:16 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also, Master Ultan says that the library houses \"books cased in perfumed\nwoods shipped across the inconceivable gulf between creations" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This sounds so much like description of manvantaras by Malrubius I feel one has\nto perform contortions to avoid the connection." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even bonafide Yesodis casually use \"creations\" to refer to galaxies when \nthy are speaking to be understood by Urthlings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "there's much less interchange between\nmanvantaras than is otherwise suggested between Urth and Earth by G.W." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I could accept this better if I thought Wolfe wrote BotNS primarily to create a\nstrange, alien planet so different from our own. Instead this is a planet tightly\nallusionally bound to our own so there must be significant connections between the\ntwo planets. It could be that is a result of Urth being future Earth and has nothing\nto do with alternate manvantaras. But if that were true, why would WOlfe dwell on the\nmultiple universe theme so strongly?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because it's a time travel story, and a religious story, and deals with \nthe beginning and end of the world as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't see any way for Ultan to know about Yesodi-level goings on and yet feel free\nto share it so casually with someone he can't positively identify." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do. But this is because I am not willing to default to the assumption that Ultan is just a\nthrow-away character: show up, reference Borges, then disappear forever in the story.\nWeird things are going on with him. Gnostic symbolism, as has recently been discussed. The\nwoman from the coffin is seen in his face. His hunger for the knowledge of the dead, etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So he's Cyriaca's uncle, and fits in with the general macbre, gothic \nmode of the citadel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We have the example of Cyriaca's \"uncle\" casually sharing the secrets of the universe with\nher (then Cyriaca casually sharing them with Severian and us)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The story of the citadel library and the ancient machine companions, et \nal, isn't a secret of the universe, just forgotten history. Ultan can be \nfree with that sort of general ancient lore because it's all in the \nlibrary somewhere and it's his job to facilitate access to it. The \nYesodi plot is for-sure current state secret of the Commonwealth that is \nactively concealed by the \"cacogen\" masquerade, and the Yesodis keep \nsome of it from even the Autarchs until they get a certified \nsun-bringer, to whom they have to eventually reveal their master plan \nin order to secure his participation, or we'd never learn of it at all." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0D436F.5050605@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-18T23:27:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<4D0D3AB2.5050109@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sound. I agree that \"galaxies\" fits better than planets, because there \nare gulfs and then there are inconceivable gulfs.\n\nI like Ultan as Cyriaca's uncle, who knows lots of stories." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/18/2010 5:50 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 12/18/2010 10:16 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Also, Master Ultan says that the library houses \"books cased in \nperfumed\nwoods shipped across the inconceivable gulf between creations" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This sounds so much like description of manvantaras by Malrubius I \nfeel one has\nto perform contortions to avoid the connection." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Even bonafide Yesodis casually use \"creations\" to refer to galaxies \nwhen thy are speaking to be understood by Urthlings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "there's much less interchange between\nmanvantaras than is otherwise suggested between Urth and Earth by G.W." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I could accept this better if I thought Wolfe wrote BotNS primarily \nto create a\nstrange, alien planet so different from our own. Instead this is a \nplanet tightly\nallusionally bound to our own so there must be significant \nconnections between the\ntwo planets. It could be that is a result of Urth being future Earth \nand has nothing\nto do with alternate manvantaras. But if that were true, why would \nWOlfe dwell on the\nmultiple universe theme so strongly?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because it's a time travel story, and a religious story, and deals \nwith the beginning and end of the world as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't see any way for Ultan to know about Yesodi-level goings on \nand yet feel free\nto share it so casually with someone he can't positively identify." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I do. But this is because I am not willing to default to the \nassumption that Ultan is just a\nthrow-away character: show up, reference Borges, then disappear \nforever in the story.\nWeird things are going on with him. Gnostic symbolism, as has \nrecently been discussed. The\nwoman from the coffin is seen in his face. His hunger for the \nknowledge of the dead, etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So he's Cyriaca's uncle, and fits in with the general macbre, gothic \nmode of the citadel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We have the example of Cyriaca's \"uncle\" casually sharing the secrets \nof the universe with\nher (then Cyriaca casually sharing them with Severian and us)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The story of the citadel library and the ancient machine companions, \net al, isn't a secret of the universe, just forgotten history. Ultan \ncan be free with that sort of general ancient lore because it's all in \nthe library somewhere and it's his job to facilitate access to it. The \nYesodi plot is for-sure current state secret of the Commonwealth that \nis actively concealed by the \"cacogen\" masquerade, and the Yesodis \nkeep some of it from even the Autarchs until they get a certified \nsun-bringer, to whom they have to eventually reveal their master plan \nin order to secure his participation, or we'd never learn of it at all." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0D7D78.2070007@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-19T03:35:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": "<3AB6E4C7-BB56-4920-9614-E3BBD5E29614@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/18/2010 10:30 AM, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nOn Dec 17, 2010, at 11:35 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/17/2010 7:35 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "True, it may mean between suns. But I'd wager Ultan is learned enough to\nchoose his words carefully, and would likely know as much about this\nstuff as Malrubius's aquastor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't see any way for Ultan to know about Yesodi-level goings on and yet feel free to share it so casually with someone he can't positively identify." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well...\n\nAre we convinced that Severian going to Ultan isn't part of his being steered?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, it *is* part of his bieng steered, and he acknowledges it when he \nconfirms the steering orders to Rudesind after his Ascension. But we \nhave no reason to think that Rudesind knows anything of the Yesodi plot, \ndo we?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do we take Ultan at face value when he just knows, off the top of his head, that a book is leaning in such a way on such a shelf, even when he's been blind for years and his apprentice has no idea about? This is a book that seems soooooooo important to Severian that he carries it through the entire BotNS. It is plausible that this is a truly random event, but NOTHING else about Severian's life, or the tasks he's assigned, seems random at all, so it is just as likely, perhaps more likely, that Ultan has had a hand in shaping him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does Ultan need to know any more than Rudesind about the Yesodi plot in \norder to obey a secret order to have a specified, named book ready to go \nwhen asked for?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-19T04:15:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<4D0D436F.5050605@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Even bonafide Yesodis casually use \"creations\" to refer to galaxies when \nthy are speaking to be understood by Urthlings." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI used to think Yesod was the next universe in succession after Briah. And that they would\neventually get an Earth and a Jesus there. In this scenario, the \"creations\" as galaxies\nwould make sense. I haven't fully given up this view.\n \nBut last summer's discussion swayed my interpretation toward those of others who see Yesod as a\nuniverse above the others, at some higher plane than the manvantaras Banging and Gnabbing below.\nConsidering the meaning of Yesod in a Kabbalich sense was part of the shift. In this view it \nmakes more sense for the creations to refer to universes, not galaxies.\n \nI mean if there is a super-universe which exists both in the cosmic future and past of Briah\nthen it has a rather eternal essence. If they are building stuff it wouldn't be for their own\neternal, heavenly space. Surely God doesn't build garages or other additions to heaven. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0DA4C6.9090702@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-19T06:23:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": "<146550.34908.qm@web37601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/18/2010 10:45 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nWitz said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This is a book that seems soooooooo important to Severian that he carries it\nthrough the entire BotNS. It is plausible that this is a truly random event,\nbut NOTHING else about>>Severian's life, or the tasks he's assigned, seems\nrandom at all, so it is just as likely, perhaps more likely, that Ultan has had\na hand in shaping him.\n\nThis book is treacherous." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Allow me some total speculation. You've been warned.\n\nUltan, of course, talks about the The Book of Gold, and the circumstances in\nwhich to-be-apprenticed librarians is a mystical, mysterious experience. It\ninitiates their initiation.\n\nAnd he uses the word \"christening,\" which can hardly be a careless use on\nWolfe's part, I'd imagine:\n\n\"The child, as I said, in time discovers The Book of Gold. Then the librarians\ncome - like vampires, some say, but others say like the fairy godparents at a\nchristening. They speak to the child, and the child joins them. Henceforth, he\nis in the library wherever he may be, and soon his parents know him no more. I\nsuppose it is much the same among torturers.\"\n\nSo we've got the imagery of dying (vampires) from one life and being reborn into\nanother (vampires, again, and the christening, as well as one's parents not\nknowing one anymore). And there's also the sense that, after you find the book,\nyou're always in that new world, no matter where you are.\n\nThe point: it's very much a conversion story. And it's a conversion story\ncentered on finding a book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with this speculation, except I think the literary vampirism-> \nnew life link is less likely than a disparagement of communion." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0DB557.7010402@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-19T07:33:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/18/2010 10:15 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Even bonafide Yesodis casually use \"creations\" to refer to galaxies when\nthy are speaking to be understood by Urthlings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I used to think Yesod was the next universe in succession after Briah. And that they would\neventually get an Earth and a Jesus there. In this scenario, the \"creations\" as galaxies\nwould make sense. I haven't fully given up this view." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe I must retract the above statement, it is in error. I have \nre-checked, and I see only galaxy used to mean galaxy by the Yesodis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But last summer's discussion swayed my interpretation toward those of others who see Yesod as a\nuniverse above the others, at some higher plane than the manvantaras Banging and Gnabbing below.\nConsidering the meaning of Yesod in a Kabbalich sense was part of the shift. In this view it\nmakes more sense for the creations to refer to universes, not galaxies." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's clear that the Yesodis watch over many galaxies at once, and back \nand forth through Briah-time over the lifetime of those galaxies, but \nthese are all within the same incarnation of Briah." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0E18EB.3040709@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-19T14:38:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Surely the Increate's garages would be in a yet higher \"universe.\"\n\nI might note that, to some degree, all out terms are inadequate for what \nwe are describing. People simply don't discuss other universes in their \ndaily conversation! So we have to make do with specific religious \ncoinology or else use ordinary words to suggest slightly expanded meanings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/18/2010 11:15 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI mean if there is a super-universe which exists both in the cosmic future and past of Briah\nthen it has a rather eternal essence. If they are building stuff it wouldn't be for their own\neternal, heavenly space. Surely God doesn't build garages or other additions to heaven." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0E69F0.8030602@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-19T20:24:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<4D0E18EB.3040709@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/19/2010 8:38 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nSurely the Increate's garages would be in a yet higher \"universe.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That would possibly be the place that supposedly the Hieros (the \nhuman-cognates who are uplifters of Tzadkiel's ancestors) have gone on \nto, and where the Hierogrammates wish to follow." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-21T15:32:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": "<146550.34908.qm@web37601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Craig Brewer\" \nAnd when Wolfe also admits that he knows many people have seen New Sun as \na Book\nof Gold itself, it seems to fit: it, too, is telling true myths in false \nways.\n\nSo it seems like we have a very Christian (if slightly less Catholic) \nnotion of\na book being a guide to revelation. But we also have the very Wolfean idea \nthat\nthe book misleads in all kinds of ways." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is perhaps coincidental that _Peace_ contains a Book of Gold (at least it \nwas written by a character named Gold, and concerns gold). It is a fake, \nand it leads to conflict and possibly murder...\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D10D2DA.8090303@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-21T16:16:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Outsider", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/21/2010 9:32 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nIt is perhaps coincidental that _Peace_ contains a Book of Gold (at \nleast it was written by a character named Gold, and concerns gold). \nIt is a fake, and it leads to conflict and possibly murder... " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It also leads to the discovery of a treasure. And thus, Weer ends up the \neventual owner of Smart's company.\n\nu+16b9" } ] } ] }