{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5835", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5835, "subject": "Gene Wolfe is for Socialists", "messages": 19, "voices": 12, "first": "2010-12-16T22:21:28+00:00", "last": "2010-12-21T21:55:26+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<4D0A90E8.7010006@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T22:21:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe is for Socialists", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Blog recommends The Fifth Head of Cerberus as a science fiction work \nthat socialists should read...and not as a \"know thy enemy\" \nrecommendation either.\n\nhttp://kasamaproject.org/2010/12/15/50-works-of-fantasy-science-fiction-for-socialists/" } ] }, { "message_id": "<29E1C3E4-1B82-4AA7-B1D7-F20AD06316DB@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T22:35:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe is for Socialists", "in_reply_to": "<4D0A90E8.7010006@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This socialist enjoys his Gene Wolfe. \n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 16, 2010, at 4:21 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nBlog recommends The Fifth Head of Cerberus as a science fiction work that socialists should read...and not as a \"know thy enemy\" recommendation either.\n\nhttp://kasamaproject.org/2010/12/15/50-works-of-fantasy-science-fiction-for-socialists/\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-12-16T22:39:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe is for Socialists", "in_reply_to": "<29E1C3E4-1B82-4AA7-B1D7-F20AD06316DB@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And that Gene Wolfe enjoys him some Conservatism.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 16, 2010, at 5:35 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nThis socialist enjoys his Gene Wolfe. \n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn Dec 16, 2010, at 4:21 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Blog recommends The Fifth Head of Cerberus as a science fiction work that socialists should read...and not as a \"know thy enemy\" recommendation either.\n\nhttp://kasamaproject.org/2010/12/15/50-works-of-fantasy-science-fiction-for-socialists/\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0ABF01.3090401@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-17T01:38:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe is for Socialists", "in_reply_to": "<29E1C3E4-1B82-4AA7-B1D7-F20AD06316DB@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They left out Samuel Delany. ???" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/16/2010 5:35 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nThis socialist enjoys his Gene Wolfe.\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn Dec 16, 2010, at 4:21 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Blog recommends The Fifth Head of Cerberus as a science fiction work that socialists should read...and not as a \"know thy enemy\" recommendation either.\n\nhttp://kasamaproject.org/2010/12/15/50-works-of-fantasy-science-fiction-for-socialists/\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000501cb9f58$21bb1bc0$65315340$@net.au>", "from": { "name": "Jeremy Francis", "address": "francisj at iinet.net.au" }, "date": "2010-12-19T08:38:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe is for Socialists", "in_reply_to": "<4D0A90E8.7010006@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wishful thinking on behalf of the blog author, I think. Fifth Head is a\ngood post-colonial text but, given how vague and variable (depending on your\ninterpretation) the identity between the colonial powers and the natives is,\nattributing any socialist purpose is pretty difficult. Further, if you buy\nBorski's interpretation of the character VRT as being a fairly despicable\nsort (I do), the issue becomes even more confused. The writer might not\npick up on the identity questions as being as difficult as they are, though,\nwhich doesn't necessarily fault him (God, if not for this list I wouldn't\npick up half of what goes on in Wolfe's books).\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On\nBehalf Of James Wynn\nSent: Friday, 17 December 2010 6:21 AM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSubject: (urth) Gene Wolfe is for Socialists\n\nBlog recommends The Fifth Head of Cerberus as a science fiction work \nthat socialists should read...and not as a \"know thy enemy\" \nrecommendation either.\n\nhttp://kasamaproject.org/2010/12/15/50-works-of-fantasy-science-fiction-for-\nsocialists/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-19T14:31:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe is for Socialists", "in_reply_to": "<000501cb9f58$21bb1bc0$65315340$@net.au>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see why is it wishful thinking on the part of the blog author (it's not even the author, this is a list by Mielville for the blog site). Mielville didn't claim Wolfe was Socialist or that his work was socialist bent. What he says is this:\n \nRefering to the Fiht Head of Cerberus:\nWolfe is a religious Republican, but his tragico-Catholic perspective leads to a deeply unglamorized and unsanitized awareness of social reality. This book is a very sad and extremely dense, complex meditation on colonialism, identity and oppression.\n \nNow, everyone interprets Wolfe's work according to his own views, and that is pretty clear in this Urth List too. Mielville may certainly see the work as emphasizing a speculation on colonialism, identy and oppression (since those are possibly the things that most ring a bell to him and touch him) but nowhere do I see any hint that Mielville sees this work as \"Socialist\", as you seem to imply. \n \nPedro" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: francisj at iinet.net.au\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 16:38:37 +0800\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe is for Socialists\n\nWishful thinking on behalf of the blog author, I think. Fifth Head is a\ngood post-colonial text but, given how vague and variable (depending on your\ninterpretation) the identity between the colonial powers and the natives is,\nattributing any socialist purpose is pretty difficult. Further, if you buy\nBorski's interpretation of the character VRT as being a fairly despicable\nsort (I do), the issue becomes even more confused. The writer might not\npick up on the identity questions as being as difficult as they are, though,\nwhich doesn't necessarily fault him (God, if not for this list I wouldn't\npick up half of what goes on in Wolfe's books).\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On\nBehalf Of James Wynn\nSent: Friday, 17 December 2010 6:21 AM" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Knight", "address": "jacobeiserman at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-20T02:23:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe is for Socialists", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm with Pedro on this one. I think the list's author is finding something\nof value in 5HOC when viewed through a socialist lens, despite recognizing\nvast differences between Wolfe's perspective and his own. Here's my own\nsweeping generalization that is likely logically unprovable: most good art\ncan be appreciated from a variety of angles, insofar as the art reflects\nsomething true about life and the angles from which the art is viewed are\nable to discern some kind of truth, even if distorted." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 7:31 AM, Pedro Pereira wrote:\nI don't see why is it wishful thinking on the part of the blog author (it's\nnot even the author, this is a list by Mielville for the\nblog site). Mielville didn't claim Wolfe was Socialist or that his work was\nsocialist bent. What he says is this:\n\nRefering to the Fiht Head of Cerberus:\n*Wolfe is a religious Republican, but his tragico-Catholic perspective\nleads to a deeply unglamorized and unsanitized awareness of social reality.\nThis book is a very sad and extremely dense, complex meditation on\ncolonialism, identity and oppression.*\n**\nNow, everyone interprets Wolfe's work according to his own views, and that\nis pretty clear in this Urth List too. Mielville may certainly see the work\nas emphasizing a speculation on colonialism, identy and oppression (since\nthose are possibly the things that most ring a bell to him and touch him)\nbut nowhere do I see any hint that Mielville sees this work as \"Socialist\",\nas you seem to imply.\n\nPedro" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-20T02:40:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe is for Socialists", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My politics are very far from Mieville's, though I admired the one Mieville\nstory I've read so far. And Mieville admits that not all the writers he\ncites are anywhere near socialist, or even on the left. Consider his\ncomments on Keith Roberts' Pavane:\n\nThese linked stories take place in a present day where Elizabeth I was\nassassinated and Spain took over Britain. This examines life in a world\nwhere a militant feudal Catholicism acts as a fetter on social and\nproductive functions. Though Roberts was no lefty at all, and you could\nprobably power France on the energy from his spinning grave at being\nincluded in this list.\n\n-Matt" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 9:23 PM, Matthew Knight wrote:\nI'm with Pedro on this one. I think the list's author is finding something\nof value in 5HOC when viewed through a socialist lens, despite recognizing\nvast differences between Wolfe's perspective and his own. Here's my own\nsweeping generalization that is likely logically unprovable: most good art\ncan be appreciated from a variety of angles, insofar as the art reflects\nsomething true about life and the angles from which the art is viewed are\nable to discern some kind of truth, even if distorted.\n\n\n\nOn Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 7:31 AM, Pedro Pereira wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't see why is it wishful thinking on the part of the blog author\n(it's not even the author, this is a list by Mielville for the\nblog site). Mielville didn't claim Wolfe was Socialist or that his work was\nsocialist bent. What he says is this:\n\nRefering to the Fiht Head of Cerberus:\n*Wolfe is a religious Republican, but his tragico-Catholic perspective\nleads to a deeply unglamorized and unsanitized awareness of social reality.\nThis book is a very sad and extremely dense, complex meditation on\ncolonialism, identity and oppression.*\n**\nNow, everyone interprets Wolfe's work according to his own views, and that\nis pretty clear in this Urth List too. Mielville may certainly see the work\nas emphasizing a speculation on colonialism, identy and oppression (since\nthose are possibly the things that most ring a bell to him and touch him)\nbut nowhere do I see any hint that Mielville sees this work as \"Socialist\",\nas you seem to imply.\n\nPedro" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0EC4D7.5060701@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-20T02:52:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe is for Socialists", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/19/2010 8:23 PM, Matthew Knight wrote:\nI'm with Pedro on this one. I think the list's author is finding\nsomething of value in 5HOC when viewed through a socialist lens, despite\nrecognizing vast differences between Wolfe's perspective and his own." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not such a stretch to see how a general dystopia is also a dystopia \nfor the working people. \"5HC\" is even a kind of \"fiend confessional\", \nwhere the narrator describes a world where people are openly bought, \nsold, and rented, how he and his gang of junior exploiters seek to steal \nand marry their way up the ladder of oppression, only to find that they \nare just as much exploited by their seniors, and piecemeal removal of \nthe ruling progenitors ultimately changes nothing. (Implying wider-scale \nrevolution is needed.)\n\n From an adventure SF POV, \"5HC\" is a wonderfully subversive story where \nthe speculative technologies of freedom or liberation from want (FTL, \nAI, and cloning, in once sense or another) are used instead to reach new \nplaces to rule, to make more efficient overseers over the working \nprisoners, and to make new races of exploiters and exploited for better \nreturns, a good wake-up call to life's realities outside the \nneighborhoods of most US/UK/Commonwealth readers." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-20T03:02:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe is for Socialists", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 20 December 2010 02:23, Matthew Knight wrote:\nI'm with Pedro on this one. I think the list's author is finding something\nof value in 5HOC when viewed through a socialist lens, despite recognizing\nvast differences between Wolfe's perspective and his own. Here's my own\nsweeping generalization that is likely logically unprovable: most good art\ncan be appreciated from a variety of angles, insofar as the art reflects\nsomething true about life and the angles from which the art is viewed are\nable to discern some kind of truth, even if distorted." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know about others, but I enjoy reading people whose ideas are\ncompletely at odds with mine, provided they are well developed.\n(Of course, there is a world of difference between well developed and\nsimply hypertrophied.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-20T03:15:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe is for Socialists", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mieville and I probably agree on quite a bit politically, but I have only\nfound a few of his stories palatable. Then again, while I can respect his\ntalent and prose, I just find a lot of the New Weird \"Oh look I have a funny\nworld with odd things and it's all very rundown and poor and disgusting but\nwe will revel in the degradation because it's soooo much of a biting social\ncritique\" writers to be less than enthralling.\n\nThat said, all I took was that the list explored themes important to\nsocialists, not necessarily that these were books that advocated for any\nsort of socialist position.\n\nLH\n\n2010/12/19 Ant?nio Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 20 December 2010 02:23, Matthew Knight wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm with Pedro on this one. I think the list's author is finding\nsomething\nof value in 5HOC when viewed through a socialist lens, despite\nrecognizing\nvast differences between Wolfe's perspective and his own. Here's my own\nsweeping generalization that is likely logically unprovable: most good\nart\ncan be appreciated from a variety of angles, insofar as the art reflects\nsomething true about life and the angles from which the art is viewed are\nable to discern some kind of truth, even if distorted." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know about others, but I enjoy reading people whose ideas are\ncompletely at odds with mine, provided they are well developed.\n(Of course, there is a world of difference between well developed and\nsimply hypertrophied.)\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-20T04:09:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe is for Socialists", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lane Haygood: That said, all I took was that the list explored themes important to\nsocialists, not necessarily that these were books that advocated for any\nsort of socialist position." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThe best explanation I've seen is the suggestion that socialists might generally be \nagainst imperialism and colonization.\n \nThe funny thing is, the deeper message in 5HoC is that the eventual result of colonization\nis that the natives will imitate, infiltrate and ultimately subvert the society of the colonizers.\nAn interesting consideration in light of minority and immigrant issues currently broiling in Europe, \nthe USA (more in the past) and what Japan seems to be vigorously trying to avoid.\n \nI could actually see the argument for 5HoC being a must-read for anti-immigrant, neo-nazi skinheads. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0F4B0C.1040100@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-20T12:24:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe is for Socialists", "in_reply_to": "<4D0EC4D7.5060701@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's right---especially the second paragraph---and it's a theme in \nBOTNS, where the oppressive effects of this type of rule are clearly \nseen throughout the Commonwealth, and where the aristocracy are local \ncolonial elites supported by alien technology. Typhon did the same with \nthese technologies when he had them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/19/2010 9:52 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 12/19/2010 8:23 PM, Matthew Knight wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm with Pedro on this one. I think the list's author is finding\nsomething of value in 5HOC when viewed through a socialist lens, despite\nrecognizing vast differences between Wolfe's perspective and his own." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's not such a stretch to see how a general dystopia is also a \ndystopia for the working people. \"5HC\" is even a kind of \"fiend \nconfessional\", where the narrator describes a world where people are \nopenly bought, sold, and rented, how he and his gang of junior \nexploiters seek to steal and marry their way up the ladder of \noppression, only to find that they are just as much exploited by their \nseniors, and piecemeal removal of the ruling progenitors ultimately \nchanges nothing. (Implying wider-scale revolution is needed.)\n\nFrom an adventure SF POV, \"5HC\" is a wonderfully subversive story \nwhere the speculative technologies of freedom or liberation from want \n(FTL, AI, and cloning, in once sense or another) are used instead to \nreach new places to rule, to make more efficient overseers over the \nworking prisoners, and to make new races of exploiters and exploited \nfor better returns, a good wake-up call to life's realities outside \nthe neighborhoods of most US/UK/Commonwealth readers." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0F4C1A.6080308@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-20T12:29:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe is for Socialists", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've read one Mieville and I don't quite get the hype either.\n\nAnyway, I was thinking that it's funny that to most Americans, \"very \nrundown and poor and disgusting\" IS socialism. At least if it describes \na White neighborhood." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/19/2010 10:15 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nMieville and I probably agree on quite a bit politically, but I have \nonly found a few of his stories palatable. Then again, while I can \nrespect his talent and prose, I just find a lot of the New Weird \"Oh \nlook I have a funny world with odd things and it's all very rundown \nand poor and disgusting but we will revel in the degradation because \nit's soooo much of a biting social critique\" writers to be less than \nenthralling.\n\nThat said, all I took was that the list explored themes important to \nsocialists, not necessarily that these were books that advocated for \nany sort of socialist position.\n\nLH" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D100F74.1020407@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-21T02:22:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe is for Exultants", "in_reply_to": "<4D0F4B0C.1040100@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/20/2010 6:24 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThat's right---especially the second paragraph---and it's a theme in\nBOTNS, where the oppressive effects of this type of rule are clearly\nseen throughout the Commonwealth, and where the aristocracy are local\ncolonial elites supported by alien technology. Typhon did the same with\nthese technologies when he had them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting - I'm not as sure as you seem to be that the Exultants are \njust Urthlings writ large, but mentioning them in conjunction with \nTyphon, who mentioned his slaves of larger sizes makes me think they are \nconnected. This might explain why Exultant height is variously \ninherited and the result of a therapy - they're result of different \nexperimental methods to set his favored servants litesrally above the \ncommon masses." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D101074.9020207@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-21T02:27:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe is for Exultants", "in_reply_to": "<4D100F74.1020407@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, but is not their height then another result of technology? Does it \nnot help them keep the natives down?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/20/2010 9:22 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 12/20/2010 6:24 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's right---especially the second paragraph---and it's a theme in\nBOTNS, where the oppressive effects of this type of rule are clearly\nseen throughout the Commonwealth, and where the aristocracy are local\ncolonial elites supported by alien technology. Typhon did the same with\nthese technologies when he had them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interesting - I'm not as sure as you seem to be that the Exultants are \njust Urthlings writ large, but mentioning them in conjunction with \nTyphon, who mentioned his slaves of larger sizes makes me think they \nare connected. This might explain why Exultant height is variously \ninherited and the result of a therapy - they're result of different \nexperimental methods to set his favored servants litesrally above the \ncommon masses." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D101A8B.7030004@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-12-21T03:10:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe is for Exultants", "in_reply_to": "<4D101074.9020207@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/20/2010 8:27 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nAh, but is not their height then another result of technology? Does it\nnot help them keep the natives down?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "still noodling that - obviously their greater size brings immediate \nphysical advanatge, and makes it much harder for commoners to \nimpersonate exultants. Perhaps there was a sex imbalance, and the \ngenetically large exultant men didn't have enough women of their stature \nto survive bearing their larger children, thus the royal jelly treatment \nand the cloning." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-21T15:28:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe is for Socialists", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed. Mieville made it pretty clear.\n\nMieville is good, though currently a little over-rated, I think. I read _Perdido Street Station_ and enjoyed it, but am in no great rush to read the sequels. I also enjoyed _The City and the City_ which is a pretty interesting take on a bizarre Borgesian world set on present day Earth, with no supernatural element.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n ----- Original Message ----- \n From: Matthew Keeley \n To: The Urth Mailing List \n Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 2:40 AM\n Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe is for Socialists\n\n\n My politics are very far from Mieville's, though I admired the one Mieville story I've read so far. And Mieville admits that not all the writers he cites are anywhere near socialist, or even on the left. Consider his comments on Keith Roberts' Pavane:\n\n\n On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 9:23 PM, Matthew Knight wrote:\n\n I'm with Pedro on this one. I think the list's author is finding something of value in 5HOC when viewed through a socialist lens, despite recognizing vast differences between Wolfe's perspective and his own. Here's my own sweeping generalization that is likely logically unprovable: most good art can be appreciated from a variety of angles, insofar as the art reflects something true about life and the angles from which the art is viewed are able to discern some kind of truth, even if distorted.\n\n On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 7:31 AM, Pedro Pereira wrote:\n\n I don't see why is it wishful thinking on the part of the blog author (it's not even the author, this is a list by Mielville for the blog site). Mielville didn't claim Wolfe was Socialist or that his work was socialist bent. What he says is this:" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-21T21:55:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe is for Socialists", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've only read Kraken, his latest, and I enjoyed it very much. But then again, I'm partial to giant squids.\n \nPedro\n \n \n \n\n\n\nFrom: gerryq at indigo.ie\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 15:28:06 +0000\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe is for Socialists\n\n\n\n\n\nAgreed. Mieville made it pretty clear.\n \nMieville is good, though currently a little over-rated, I think. I read _Perdido Street Station_ and enjoyed it, but am in no great rush to read the sequels. I also enjoyed _The City and the City_ which is a pretty interesting take on a bizarre Borgesian world set on present day Earth, with no supernatural element.\n \n- Gerry Quinn\n \n \n\n----- Original Message ----- \nFrom: Matthew Keeley " } ] } ] }