{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5839", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5839, "subject": "(No subject)", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2010-12-17T12:30:49+00:00", "last": "2010-12-17T17:15:58+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-17T12:30:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (No subject)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n\n. Since I am not a Christian or religious, it didn't" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "bother me to think that Severian and the story I treasure was not in a Judeo-Christian universe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It depends, I think, what we mean by saying that it's not a\nJudaeo-Christian universe. A universe without a saviour? It may be;\nI'm not committed on that. But if we (as Christians) believe in\nuniverses without a saviour in them, that is because the saving power\nof the Christ in this world extends to them. A universe not made - or\ncaused, at least indirectly - by the Judaeo-Christian God? I find it\nvery hard to believe that Wolfe would conceive of that. (I mean, he\nmight well think 'Suppose God as we know him did not exist, but a\ncompletely different kind of first principle did'. But I don't think\nhe would imagine that within a cycle of universes some of which are\nmade by the Judaeo-Christian God, others are not. God, if he exists\nat all, is all-embracing.)\n\nIt seems to be a running theme of the _Sun_ cycle that while there are\nmany beings that can be called gods, there is one true God; and that\nGod is often imagined in Christian terms (though I agree he is\nimagined in pagan terms as well).\n\nThe presence of other gods (in some sense) does not count against\nthis, I think, because Wolfe believes in the existence of pagan gods\nwithin this universe, which is made by the Judaeo-Christian God.\n\n I'm not too political but I am rabidly anti-torture and generally averse to" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "parasitic exploitation of humans by other humans in the manner of chatelaines-khaibits. So, distancing myself\nfrom Urth isn't so difficult at all, for me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But can we distance ourselves from Urth? Torture exists in our world.\nIf kahibits don't, it's just because we don't have the technology;\nexploitation of women, in various forms, does. The Commonwealth is a\npretty nasty place in many ways, but is it worse than Nazi Germany or\nStalinist Russia? I think this is just the inherent corruption of\nhumanity, not a sign of a godless world." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D0B5DAB.1050108@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-17T12:55:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (No subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andrew, I think the theology and the text converge on these points. \nThanks for putting it so well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/17/2010 7:30 AM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nLee Berman wrote:\n\n. Since I am not a Christian or religious, it didn't\n bother me to think that Severian and the story I treasure was not in a Judeo-Christian universe.\nIt depends, I think, what we mean by saying that it's not a\nJudaeo-Christian universe. A universe without a saviour? It may be;\nI'm not committed on that. But if we (as Christians) believe in\nuniverses without a saviour in them, that is because the saving power\nof the Christ in this world extends to them. A universe not made - or\ncaused, at least indirectly - by the Judaeo-Christian God? I find it\nvery hard to believe that Wolfe would conceive of that. (I mean, he\nmight well think 'Suppose God as we know him did not exist, but a\ncompletely different kind of first principle did'. But I don't think\nhe would imagine that within a cycle of universes some of which are\nmade by the Judaeo-Christian God, others are not. God, if he exists\nat all, is all-embracing.)\n\nIt seems to be a running theme of the_Sun_ cycle that while there are\nmany beings that can be called gods, there is one true God; and that\nGod is often imagined in Christian terms (though I agree he is\nimagined in pagan terms as well).\n\nThe presence of other gods (in some sense) does not count against\nthis, I think, because Wolfe believes in the existence of pagan gods\nwithin this universe, which is made by the Judaeo-Christian God." } ] }, { "message_id": "<7C1D62C6-8089-4B9F-B09E-F1766FB08F2B@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-17T17:15:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (No subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 17, 2010, at 4:30 AM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nLee Berman wrote:\n\n. Since I am not a Christian or religious, it didn't\nbother me to think that Severian and the story I treasure was not in a Judeo-Christian universe.\n\nIt depends, I think, what we mean by saying that it's not a\nJudaeo-Christian universe. A universe without a saviour? It may be;\nI'm not committed on that. But if we (as Christians) believe in\nuniverses without a saviour in them, that is because the saving power\nof the Christ in this world extends to them. A universe not made - or\ncaused, at least indirectly - by the Judaeo-Christian God? I find it\nvery hard to believe that Wolfe would conceive of that. (I mean, he\nmight well think 'Suppose God as we know him did not exist, but a\ncompletely different kind of first principle did'. But I don't think\nhe would imagine that within a cycle of universes some of which are\nmade by the Judaeo-Christian God, others are not. God, if he exists\nat all, is all-embracing.)\n\nIt seems to be a running theme of the _Sun_ cycle that while there are\nmany beings that can be called gods, there is one true God; and that\nGod is often imagined in Christian terms (though I agree he is\nimagined in pagan terms as well).\n\nThe presence of other gods (in some sense) does not count against\nthis, I think, because Wolfe believes in the existence of pagan gods\nwithin this universe, which is made by the Judaeo-Christian God.\n\nI'm not too political but I am rabidly anti-torture and generally averse to\nparasitic exploitation of humans by other humans in the manner of chatelaines-khaibits. So, distancing myself\nfrom Urth isn't so difficult at all, for me.\n\nBut can we distance ourselves from Urth? Torture exists in our world.\nIf kahibits don't, it's just because we don't have the technology;\nexploitation of women, in various forms, does. The Commonwealth is a\npretty nasty place in many ways, but is it worse than Nazi Germany or\nStalinist Russia? I think this is just the inherent corruption of\nhumanity, not a sign of a godless world." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Excellent!" } ] } ] }