{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5851",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 5851,
    "subject": "Pas snd Kypris",
    "messages": 1,
    "voices": 1,
    "first": "2010-12-21T23:35:28+00:00",
    "last": "2010-12-21T23:35:28+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<AANLkTinOUw-vqE91dLLzXLOsctEzjDsZLv6g3Ge_YS2+@mail.gmail.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Andrew Mason",
        "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com"
      },
      "date": "2010-12-21T23:35:28+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Pas snd Kypris",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Gerry Quinn  wrote:\n\nBut the passage that identifies Mamelta with Kypris and Kypris's mother also says that the Outsider is a toy dancer and the water is a polished toy-top. “We cannot take the last part literally, so surely it is reasonable not to take the first literally either”"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Well. I definitely agree not everything in Silk's dreams should be\ntaken literally. He identifies Mint with Marble and Rose, Mucor with\nthe prelate of his schola, etc. Part of this surely has to be\nexplained in terms of Silk's psychology. But it would be totally\nWolfean to slip in some clues along the way. This is,after all, a\nworld (whorl?) where dreams sometimes come from the gods. So while 'it\nsays it, so it must be true' is not in itself conclusive, that's not\nto say it can never be literally true.\n\nBut I think that a lot of what goes on here does have a fairly\nstraightforward psychological explanation, namely that his contact\nwith Kypris is leading to his sexual awakening, so literal readings\naren't essential."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "What you say about Pas's desire for an heir underlying the struggle in Mainframe is new to me. ?As I understood it, the struggle in Mainframe is between Pas's desire to fulfil his original colonisation plan, and Echidna's desire to keep her congregation on board the Whorl."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Agreed - I don't think we are ever told very clearly what the source\nof the struggle was, but the nearest we get to an answer, from Quetzal\n(some people love things so much they want to keep them caged, and\nother people love things so much they want to set them free) supports\nyour reading. (Of course, Quetzal may be lying. One might well think\nnothing is more likely. But I would like to know more about the\nspecific reasons reasons for another reading.)"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Indeed, one might argue that on Urth as well as in the Whorl, Pas has hit upon a solution to his undoubted desire for a male heir - he has decided to become immortal!"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "We are told he wanted an heir. And Scylla, after explaining  about the\nbirth of Echidna's children, goes on to say 'and then - ' at which\npoint she is interrrupted. So there is something going on here that we\ndon't know about. I agree this is a bit hard to fit in with the\nimmortality thing."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "[As for the creepiness or otherwise of a man looking up a woman's loins, I'm not sure how her being his mother would improve matters!]"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Lack of creepiness is not an advantage of this theory (though you may\nnot think it's desirable), since Kypris seems definitely to be taking\na sexual interest in Silk, first through Hyacinth, and then by\ninviting him to be with her in Mainframe. And unlike Dorcas with\nSeverian, she presumably knows about their relationship. (That the\nscene with Mamelta recalls Dorcas and Severian I agree.)"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Now I *can* imagine that after some falling out, Urth-Typhon decided it would be fun to play a nasty little joke on Pas and Kypris, the punchline of which wouldn't be revealed for 200 years or more. “But if he did this, he would most certainly *not* wipe her memories! ?Where would the fun be in that”"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "It's possible, I guess, that Echidna made Urth-Typhon get rid of her\nat the physical level, at the same time as he was plotting to take her\nwith him at the virtual level. So on relflection, I don't think this\nis unworkable (though it's not what our other knowledge of Pas and\nKypris would immediately suggest)."
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}