{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5855", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5855, "subject": "Fish and Cave", "messages": 5, "voices": 3, "first": "2010-12-22T16:01:50+00:00", "last": "2010-12-24T15:37:11+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-22T16:01:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fish and Cave", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: Fish and Frog must be very important, too, though I used it once to argue that \nPia was Sev's sister (her description of dark hair with pale features, high cheekbones and a \nthin waist really mirrors Sevs, and he finds a girl who looks like Pia eviscerated in Baldander's \ncastle) and that one of them was sent down the river, but someone convinced me the river was headed \nthe wrong way or something." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThat is interesting. I don't see how Fish and Frog are involved in Pia's story but I'd like to. I'm\ninterested in James' take on that also.\n \nFor me, there isn't too much hesitation in thinking that every sexual partner of Severian's might be a\nfamily member. The stuff surrounding Pia is at least chin-scratching, including the Dorcas resemblance\nand the cloning. I tend to think such wrong-flowing river contrivances are not necessary to understand\nthe general concept of \"family connection\" that Wolfe is going for. When you have giant asexual and \nsexually reproducing creatures in the mix, our human sense of kin labelling doesn't quite work.\n \nAnyway, the fish theme is strong here. Pia's people worship Oannes, the fish god. The town \non the shore is named Murene which basically means \"Eel\". The Lake is Diuturna which is about the same \nword as Juturna. Baldanders seems to want to go \"swimming with Undines\" there. And of course we have \nSeverian eating fish and labelling himself as an Oannes at the end of UotNS. Good fishing indeed!\n \n(shore and island people again as paired opposites, one \"good\" one \"evil\". Can we really think that Oannes\nand Abaia are different gods in the same lake?)\n \n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D122E35.6000703@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-12-22T16:58:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fish and Cave", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just briefly, I don't see that the Fish \"symbol\" is entirely ruled out. \nI'd say it's twisted into unrecognizability, for very good reasons:\n\nsome having to do with avoiding a Sunday school lesson, and some having \nto do with the fact that everything in Briah is a twisted shadow.of \nsomething in our universe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/22/2010 11:01 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nMarc Aramini: Fish and Frog must be very important, too, though I used it once to argue that\nPia was Sev's sister (her description of dark hair with pale features, high cheekbones and a\nthin waist really mirrors Sevs, and he finds a girl who looks like Pia eviscerated in Baldander's\ncastle) and that one of them was sent down the river, but someone convinced me the river was headed\nthe wrong way or something." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is interesting. I don't see how Fish and Frog are involved in Pia's story but I'd like to. I'm\ninterested in James' take on that also.\n\nFor me, there isn't too much hesitation in thinking that every sexual partner of Severian's might be a\nfamily member. The stuff surrounding Pia is at least chin-scratching, including the Dorcas resemblance\nand the cloning. I tend to think such wrong-flowing river contrivances are not necessary to understand\nthe general concept of \"family connection\" that Wolfe is going for. When you have giant asexual and\nsexually reproducing creatures in the mix, our human sense of kin labelling doesn't quite work.\n\nAnyway, the fish theme is strong here. Pia's people worship Oannes, the fish god. The town\non the shore is named Murene which basically means \"Eel\". The Lake is Diuturna which is about the same\nword as Juturna. Baldanders seems to want to go \"swimming with Undines\" there. And of course we have\nSeverian eating fish and labelling himself as an Oannes at the end of UotNS. Good fishing indeed!\n\n(shore and island people again as paired opposites, one \"good\" one \"evil\". Can we really think that Oannes\nand Abaia are different gods in the same lake?)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-23T18:45:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fish and Cave", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nAnyway, the fish theme is strong here. Pia's people worship Oannes, the \nfish god. The town\non the shore is named Murene which basically means \"Eel\". The Lake is \nDiuturna which is about the same\nword as Juturna. Baldanders seems to want to go \"swimming with Undines\" \nthere. And of course we have\nSeverian eating fish and labelling himself as an Oannes at the end of \nUotNS. Good fishing indeed!\n\n(shore and island people again as paired opposites, one \"good\" one \"evil\". \nCan we really think that Oannes\nand Abaia are different gods in the same lake?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought we were told that Abaia lived in the sea? I can't recall where \nexactly, but the locations of Erebus and Abaia were given at some point.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-24T04:17:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fish and Cave", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I don't shrink away from ambiguity - in fact I have been pointing out \nambiguities here! What I don't accept without very strong evidence are \ntheories that are self-contradictory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWell, yes, what I mean is that by pointing out ambiguities you feel you are disproving \ntheories or weakening them perhaps.\n \nIf self-contradiction really bothers you so much I can understand why you don't believe in God.\nI accept and now much better understand your role in interpreting Gene Wolfe. It is a valuable\none.\n \nCool beans!:-) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<49AD24C205E4448AB4D2C06AF98BEDD5@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-24T15:37:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fish and Cave", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message ----- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I don't shrink away from ambiguity - in fact I have been \npointing out\nambiguities here! What I don't accept without very strong evidence are\ntheories that are self-contradictory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, yes, what I mean is that by pointing out ambiguities you feel you \nare disproving\ntheories or weakening them perhaps." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In this particular case, I pointed out that either of two possible sea \ngoddesses could have been meant - that increases the number of possible \ntheories rather than limits them. Of course by the same token it can \nslightly weaken any theory based on it being a particular one of the two.\n\nIt is natural that there should be a tension between the proliferation of \ntheories and their strength. This is precisely why I challenge theories, \nthat is to say I investigate how well the fit with the text as a whole. If \nevery possible theory is equally valid, no theory means anything much." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If self-contradiction really bothers you so much I can understand why you \ndon't believe in God.\nI accept and now much better understand your role in interpreting Gene \nWolfe. It is a valuable\none." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For the record, I think there *is* room for believing in God, that is to say \nI think there are interpretations of the physical universe as we understand \nit that allow for a God in the strong sense. I do think the universe cannot \nbe self-contradictory. A text can, but preferably should not. I give it \nthe benefit of the doubt until a contradiction is proved.\n\nAnyway I will wish you and everyone a Merry Christmas!\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] } ] }