{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5859", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5859, "subject": "plantary problems", "messages": 9, "voices": 5, "first": "2010-12-28T17:31:35+00:00", "last": "2010-12-29T23:31:47+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-28T17:31:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) plantary problems", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: I'm not crazy about Lee's postulation either. If Nessus is connected to \nthe distant cities of Green, why is it not connected to any city in the \ngalaxy that has a mirror in it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHm. Things are spiralling out of control here. I guess the connection could be a mirror\nthough I was thinking more along the lines of a permanent dream-travel connection (in\ncontrast to the temporary dream-travel connections made by The Cumaean and Silk-Horn)\n\nI don't think it matters. Nor do \"any\" other cities or planets in the galaxy matter;\nWolfe doesn't mention them, they don't exist; not in the labyrinth of his stories, \nanyway. If Dr. Talos can create a cosmic opus using only five actors, Dr. Wolfe can\ncreate one using only five heavenly bodies, Urth, Yesod, The Whorl, Blue and Green.\n(I don't include Lune because nobody goes there.) \n \n \nFor me, Marc addresses the key question: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think we need to look at what caused the deluge." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nBut I don't think the relevant answer is astronomical. It is Biblical. The Flood was caused\nby the \"Sons Of God and the Nephilim\". \"Fallen angels and giants\". \"Demons and Men Of Reknown\". \nBy whatever name these things are called (e.g. inhumi and godlings, Inire and Baldanders). They \nshow up repeatedly in the Sun Series and I don't see how they can be ignored in a story where\nFloods are a recurring theme.\n \n(I'm not making this stuff up. I swear! http://www.gotquestions.org/Nephilim.html\n \n \nIf there is a connection between Urth and Green I can't imagine it being just for fun. There has\nto be a thematic purpose to it. I can't remember where the \"are Inhumi on Urth?\" discussion went\nbut not far enough, imho. Was Quetzal's origin discussed? Urth's populace knows of manatees but \nonly a few know what they really are. I think even fewer know the truth about those elusive blood \nbats. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D1A2699.80500@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-28T18:04:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) plantary problems", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman-\nIf there is a connection between Urth and Green I can't imagine it being just for fun. There has\nto be a thematic purpose to it. I can't remember where the \"are Inhumi on Urth?\" discussion went\nbut not far enough, imho. Was Quetzal's origin discussed? Urth's populace knows of manatees but\nonly a few know what they really are. I think even fewer know the truth about those elusive blood\nbats." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe said that Quetzal was a recent arrival, and since I believe his \nmother fed on Tussah that sounds reasonable to me. But when that \nquestion was asked, no one knew about the other inhumi on Green. There \nhas been no word from on high about the existence of inhumi on Urth. If \nWolfe intended to retcon them in, then we should expect to see one or \ntwo during the Rajan's travels to Urth.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<433133.85263.qm@web58201.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-12-28T19:24:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) plantary problems", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "See, this Green is Urth thing is a messy messy can of worms for some reason given what we don't really understand about Silk's powers. Sorry, my fault. The implications are chaotic and bizarre, but for all my solutions I prefer to look for evidence with quotes, which I agree are more often than not ambiguous in Wolfe. So we do have in the text a saying that Silk can enter other people's stories and change them, which is bizarre, like he is a nexus for the creation of mythic reality or something.\n\nBut as far as the mechanism goes, yes, obviously, Rigoglio was thinking about Urth, but Silk was thinking about Green. That was the mechanism I was missing when I thought Blue was Urth, obviously, there was no thought or motivation from Silk to indicate he was going to Blue. That scene outright says the guy in charge of the translation through space wanted to go to Green. So given the description of the city and its sewers and its towers and the retold myth of Severian there, I think that is pointing toward a physical contiguity? with Urth. I don't have a problem with the Vanished people because they are just the next stage of people in this schemata. \n\nNow Blue is causing all sorts of problems, and I just don't know what to make of the weird conjunction between the two planets either.\n\nI hope someday Wolfe publishes something that will shed light on whether he viewed Severian as a salvific figure or something quite a bit more sinister, and how the white fountain altered the cosmology (or astronomy I guess) of Urth, but that is a vain hope.\n\n--- On Tue, 12/28/10, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Lee Berman \nSubject: (urth) plantary problems\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Tuesday, December 28, 2010, 9:31 AM\nJames Wynn: I'm not crazy about Lee's postulation either. If Nessus is connected to \nthe distant cities of Green, why is it not connected to any city in the \ngalaxy that has a mirror in it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hm. Things are spiralling out of control here. I guess the connection could be a mirror\nthough I was thinking more along the lines of a permanent dream-travel connection (in\ncontrast to the temporary dream-travel connections made by The Cumaean and Silk-Horn)\n\nI don't think it matters. Nor do \"any\" other cities or planets in the galaxy matter;\nWolfe doesn't mention them, they don't exist; not in the labyrinth of his stories, \nanyway. If Dr. Talos can create a cosmic opus using only five actors, Dr. Wolfe can\ncreate one using only five heavenly bodies, Urth, Yesod, The Whorl, Blue and Green.\n(I don't include Lune because nobody goes there.)? \n\n\nFor me, Marc addresses the key question: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think we need to look at what caused the deluge." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But I don't think the relevant answer is astronomical. It is Biblical. The Flood was caused\nby the \"Sons Of God and the Nephilim\". \"Fallen angels and giants\". \"Demons and Men Of Reknown\". \nBy whatever name these things are called (e.g. inhumi and godlings, Inire and Baldanders). They \nshow up repeatedly in the Sun Series and I don't see how they can be ignored in a story where\nFloods are a recurring theme.\n\n(I'm not making this stuff up. I swear! http://www.gotquestions.org/Nephilim.html\n\n\nIf there is a connection between Urth and Green I can't imagine it being just for fun. There has\nto be a thematic purpose to it. I can't remember where the \"are Inhumi on Urth?\" discussion went\nbut not far enough, imho. Was Quetzal's origin discussed? Urth's populace knows of manatees but \nonly a few know what they really are. I think even fewer know the truth about those elusive blood \nbats. ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ? " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D1A3C3A.4040009@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-28T19:36:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) plantary problems", "in_reply_to": "<433133.85263.qm@web58201.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini -\nI don't have a problem with the Vanished people because they are just \nthe next stage of people in this schemata." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, you should because the Rajan asserts the Neighbors' home planet \nwas Blue, not Green.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<519241.83285.qm@web81404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2010-12-28T19:42:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) plantary problems", "in_reply_to": "<4D1A3C3A.4040009@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm feeling really stooopid...I haven;t read the books in a while...but isn't the Rajan Horn in Silks' body who was kidnapped by the townspeople who thought he was Silk to rule/clean up their town? The Rajan is something else entirely?\nexplanations appreciated\n\n???????? ? ? \n\nSTUHAMM.COM\nFACEBOOK/STUARTHAMM\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\nSkype? stuart.hamm\n? ?? \n\n\n--- On Tue, 12/28/10, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) plantary problems\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, December 28, 2010, 11:36 AM\nMarc Aramini -\nI don't have a problem with the Vanished people because they are just the next stage of people in this schemata." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, you should because the Rajan asserts the Neighbors' home planet was Blue, not Green.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D1A41BC.2030600@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-28T19:59:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) plantary problems", "in_reply_to": "<519241.83285.qm@web81404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stuart Hamm-\nI'm feeling really stooopid...I haven;t read the books in a \nwhile...but isn't the Rajan Horn in Silks' body who was kidnapped by \nthe townspeople who thought he was Silk to rule/clean up their town? \nThe Rajan is something else entirely?\nexplanations appreciated." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Rajan is the same. But I believe it is a teensy bit more complicated \nthan Horn in Silk's body. \nhttp://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2010-December/018826.html\n\nWolfe doesn't call him Horn, or Silk, or Silkhorn in interviews. He \ncalls him the Rajan. So that's what I call him." } ] }, { "message_id": "<308888.56518.qm@web81406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2010-12-28T20:04:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) plantary problems", "in_reply_to": "<4D1A41BC.2030600@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whew...I agree James and am familiar with the \"3 quills in the pen case\" theories...I got the impression that someone here mentioned that the Rajan had dream traveled to Blanko and not gotten there by lander...\n\n???????? ? ? \n\nSTUHAMM.COM\nFACEBOOK/STUARTHAMM\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\nSkype? stuart.hamm\n? ?? \n\n\n--- On Tue, 12/28/10, James Wynn wrote:\n\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) plantary problems\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, December 28, 2010, 11:59 AM\n\n\n\n \n\n \n \n\n \n \n \n \n Stuart Hamm-\n\n I'm feeling really stooopid...I haven;t read the books in\n a while...but isn't the Rajan Horn in Silks' body who was\n kidnapped by the townspeople who thought he was Silk to\n rule/clean up their town? The Rajan is something else\n entirely?\n\n explanations appreciated.\n\n \n \n \n \n \n \n\n The Rajan is the same. But I believe it is a teensy bit more\n complicated than Horn in Silk's body.\n http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2010-December/018826.html\n\n \n\n Wolfe doesn't call him Horn, or Silk, or Silkhorn in interviews. He\n calls him the Rajan. So that's what I call him. \n\n \n\n \n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-29T23:07:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) plantary problems", "in_reply_to": "<308888.56518.qm@web81406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: \"The red star there is called the Fish's Mouth, and on its one surviving \nworld there dwells an ancient and acute mind.\"\nThe planetary system containing Blue and Green has at least two surviving worlds." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: Well, one could argue Green is not surviving, as in there may be no \nintelligent life there at some point." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. The phrase \"one surviving world\" should inspire the question of why the other\nworld(s) did not survive rather than be reduced to a simplistic count of one. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<53061C5152844CFE975B3660CE6E16DE@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-12-29T23:31:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) plantary problems", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: \"The red star there is called the Fish's Mouth, and on its \none surviving\nworld there dwells an ancient and acute mind.\"\nThe planetary system containing Blue and Green has at least two surviving \nworlds." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: Well, one could argue Green is not surviving, as in \nthere may be no\nintelligent life there at some point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. The phrase \"one surviving world\" should inspire the question of why \nthe other\nworld(s) did not survive rather than be reduced to a simplistic count of \none." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Feel free to speculate on the history of that system... the fact remains \nthat the number is stated to be one.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] } ] }