Losing Imitation

Lee Berman28 Dec 2010, 22:14

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James Wynn: Actually, that's the opposite lesson of Dr Veil and of the evolutionary loss of the carapace. If the abos are perfect imitations, then they must lose the ability to shape-shift away from their imitation.

On this I must cite direct text as evidence:

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Aunt Jeannine: "If Veil was correct then you and I are abos from Sainte Anne, at least in origin...Do you think "he" was right?"

Number Five: "I don't think it makes any difference. He said the imitation would have to be perfect, and if it is, they're the same as we were anyway".

Aunt Jeannine: "Number Five, you're too young for semantics and I'm afraid you've been led astray by that word 'perfect'...The imitation could hardly have been exact, since human beings don't possess that talent and to imitate them 'perfectly' the abos would have to lose it."

Number Five: "Couldn't they?"

Aunt Jeannine: "My dear child, abilties of every sort must evolve. And when they do they must be utilized or they atrophy. If the abos had been able to mimic so well as to lose the power to do so, that would have been the end of them, and no doubt it would have come long before the first ships reached them...."

Thus inhumi on Urth, dream-travel be damned, cannot be perfect imitations of humans. They have the ability to shift back to their original form and have not, can not lose it, on basic evolutionary principles. (according to Auntie Gene anyway) Of course Aunt Jeannine goes on to say:

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"veil, who wants a dramatic explanation for the cruelty and irrationality he sees around him, has hung fifty pounds of theory on nothing".

I'm sure most remember that Aunt Jeannine IS Dr Veil. Hilarious that Wolfe has anticipated both the wild theorists about his work and the conservative nay-sayers in one character. Which is he implying are the correct ones?

James Wynn29 Dec 2010, 17:42

↳ in reply to Lee Berman

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Aunt Jeannine: "Number Five, you're too young for semantics and I'm afraid you've been led astray by that word 'perfect'...The imitation could hardly have been exact, since human beings don't possess that talent and to imitate them 'perfectly' the abos would have to lose it." Number Five: "Couldn't they?" Aunt Jeannine: "My dear child, abilties of every sort must evolve. And when they do they must be utilized or they atrophy. If the abos had been able to mimic so well as to lose the power to do so, that would have been the end of them, and no doubt it would have come long before the first ships reached them...."

Thus inhumi on Urth, dream-travel be damned, cannot be perfect imitations of humans. They have the ability to shift back to their original form and have not, can not lose it, on basic evolutionary principles. (according to Auntie Gene anyway) Of course Aunt Jeannine goes on to say:

"veil, who wants a dramatic explanation for the cruelty and irrationality he sees around him, has hung fifty pounds of theory on nothing".

I'm sure most remember that Aunt Jeannine IS Dr Veil. Hilarious that Wolfe has anticipated both the wild theorists about his work and the conservative nay-sayers in one character. Which is he implying are the correct ones?

I don't think this applies to the inhumi and I think you have misinterpreted the lesson. I think Wolfe is making a statement about colonization here. It has always gone on. One group arriving to push out the previous one. But in order for the colonization to stick, the arrivals with have to take on the customs and eventually even the appearance of the natives--those attributes were not invented out of nothing. So the arrivals become the natives--in this case, by the natives becoming the arrivals. And the native environment is huge and inexhaustible. The arrivals will never overwhelm the environment's ability to absorb them. When Marsch goes into the outback, he finds abos existing quite happily occassionally taking the form of cats or four-eyed elks. He even find the abos in their original native state: lurid, white worms. As for the inhumi, when they are in dream-travel, they aren't mimicking. That is who they really are without the clothing of their bodies. They are no more mimicking than Cilinia was mimicking a night chough (as Pas did before her). Returning to their reptilian form is only a matter putting their old clothes back on. ᚹ

Lee Berman29 Dec 2010, 19:41

↳ follows, by subject match James Wynn

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James Wynn: I don't think this applies to the inhumi and I think you have misinterpreted the lesson. I think Wolfe is making a statement about colonization here. It has always gone on. One group arriving to push out the previous one. But in order for the colonization to stick, the arrivals with have to take on the customs and eventually even the appearance of the natives--those attributes were not invented out of nothing. So the arrivals become the natives--in this case, by the natives becoming the arrivals. And the native environment is huge and inexhaustible. The arrivals will never overwhelm the environment's ability to absorb them. When Marsch goes into the outback, he finds abos existing quite happily occassionally taking the form of cats or four-eyed elks. He even find the abos in their original native state: lurid, white worms. As for the inhumi, when they are in dream-travel, they aren't mimicking. That is who they really are without the clothing of their bodies. They are no more mimicking than Cilinia was mimicking a night chough (as Pas did before her). Returning to their reptilian form is only a matter putting their old clothes back on.

James it is interesting. We are seeing the same connection between Shadow Children and Inhumi but in reversed perspective. Sainte Anne/St. Croix is the home planetary system of Shadow Children and Green/Blue is the home planetary system of Inhumi. Humans have come to both planets and have been killed/imitated/replaced by the natives in both places. Shadow Children, like Inhumi, dream travel. Why do they do it? To lure prey to their planetary system. Why do Inhumi dream-travel? We don't really know. But we have the Whorl delivering prey to the Inhumi planetary system. (when the question comes up of why the Whorl was sent to Blue/Green all I've ever seen are shrugs) When you say the inhumi "really are human" in dream travel, what does that mean? That they show the human form of someone they have bitten? I can't really understand any other meaning. These things are really vampires or reptiles or vines or white worms. (FWIW, Dracula author Bram Stoker also wrote Lair Of the White Worm. I don't think the vampire connection is coincidental) By analogy I must guess that the Shadow Children appear human to those humans they contacted via dreams. Perhaps it is redundant to note that both the locals from Ste. Anne and the locals from Green are pretty bad at using tools.

James Wynn29 Dec 2010, 20:37

↳ in reply to Lee Berman

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(when the question comes up of why the Whorl was sent to Blue/Green all I've ever seen are shrugs)

In fairness, that's what Wolfe did when asked why the Whorl was sent. He also said Typhon didn't know about the inhumi, and they weren't part of /his/ plan.

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When you say the inhumi "really are human" in dream travel, what does that mean? That they show the human form of someone they have bitten? I can't really understand any other meaning. These things are really vampires or reptiles or vines or white worms.

Their bodies are reptilian vampires. Their souls are human. Pas and his family are human in this regard as well...not in the eyes of God perhaps...but in every other way. At least the way, Wolfe sees it. It true that inhumi in dream-travel tend to be promiscuous. But that is because their plight is like that of the chems...human souls trapped in inhuman corporeal forms (and that is exactly what I think the chems are). When they get their human (okay, human-ish) bodies, they want to use them. They want to be loved by humans. It's the Pinocchio story again. Its like the giants in The Wizard Knight. (It true these bodies don't need to eat, but they can be killed in the conventional ways, so I presume if you cut them open, you would find human organs.) The Rajan says they are truly human. Perhaps he is prejudiced by his memory of Hyacinth. But he is the best authority we have on this subject, so I am inclined to believe him. He also says that sex with them is wrong. And perhaps that is Silk talking (he did speak of a "taint" between them that doesn't come from either of them).

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(FWIW, Dracula author Bram Stoker also wrote Lair Of the White Worm. I don't think the vampire connection is coincidental)

Perhaps, but Wolfe has denied any physical connection between Green/Blue and St Anne/St Croix. But Wolfe might have had some thought of that somewhere in the mix as well.

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By analogy I must guess that the Shadow Children appear human to those humans they contacted via dreams. Perhaps it is redundant to note that both the locals from Ste. Anne and the locals from Green are pretty bad at using tools.

Well, twins share dreams, so it is not unlikely that they contact other entities through dreams. But I'd want evidence that they APPEAR in dreams. I don't think I'd draw so close a correlation between Fifth Head and Short Sun. Wolfe is reusing parts, but I don't think the Neighbors/Inhumi are Shadow Children/abos. Only in part because I think the abos ARE Shadow Children. I just think Sandwalker and the psychic tribe he meets in the pit are descended from different waves of human colonization. ᚹ

Gerry Quinn29 Dec 2010, 22:19

↳ in reply to Lee Berman

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From: "Lee Berman" <severiansola at hotmail.com> Shadow Children, like Inhumi, dream travel. Why do they do it? To lure prey to their planetary system.

I don't remember them dream travelling. And they certainly did not lure humans to their system - quite the opposite. (I'm ignoring for the purposes of this point that the Shadow Children are human.) The abos don't dream travel like Silk etc. either, although the twin brothers enter each others' mind in dreams. And there is no evidence that they lured prey, or preyed on humans to any significant extent.

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Why do Inhumi dream-travel? We don't really know. But we have the Whorl delivering prey to the Inhumi planetary system. (when the question comes up of why the Whorl was sent to Blue/Green all I've ever seen are shrugs)

Isn't it obvious? There are habitable planets there. Presumably they have suitable atmospheric chemical signatures, as determined by spectroscopy.

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When you say the inhumi "really are human" in dream travel, what does that mean? That they show the human form of someone they have bitten? I can't really understand any other meaning. These things are really vampires or reptiles or vines or white worms.

Their spirits are human. They see that as their true identity.

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By analogy I must guess that the Shadow Children appear human to those humans they contacted via dreams.

Which humans are those?

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Perhaps it is redundant to note that both the locals from Ste. Anne and the locals from Green are pretty bad at using tools.

Some species are technological, some aren't. - Gerry Quinn

James Wynn29 Dec 2010, 22:54

↳ in reply to Gerry Quinn

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On 12/29/2010 4:19 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote: And they certainly did not lure humans to their system - quite the opposite. (I'm ignoring for the purposes of this point that the Shadow Children are human.

If Wolfe is to be credited, they are not.

Gerry Quinn30 Dec 2010, 00:43

↳ in reply to James Wynn

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From: "James Wynn" <crushtv at gmail.com> On 12/29/2010 4:19 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:

And they certainly did not lure humans to their system - quite the opposite. (I'm ignoring for the purposes of this point that the Shadow Children are human.

If Wolfe is to be credited, they are not.

He also said Urth = Green, and look at the trouble THAT'S caused! As you say, he made some comment to that effect. But the book indicates otherwise, so I tend to believe he misspoke, though I guess theories about two groups of abos are tenable if one has some reason for believing that. - Gerry Quinn

James Wynn30 Dec 2010, 01:46

↳ in reply to Gerry Quinn

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Gerry Quinn- (I'm ignoring for the purposes of this point that the Shadow Children are human.

James Wynn- If Wolfe is to be credited, they are not.

Gerry Quinn- He also said Urth = Green, and look at the trouble THAT'S caused!

It doesn't mean it isn't true. It only means it has not been established HOW it is true. I think it is true. I only doubt that the Blue/Green sun is Urth's Sol.

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Gerry Quinn- As you say, he made some comment to that effect. But the book indicates otherwise, so I tend to believe he misspoke, though I guess theories about two groups of abos are tenable if one has some reason for believing that.

There are at least two OTHER groups of abos identified. Furthermore we KNOW abos sometimes take the forms of trees if the stories of their reproduction are to be believed. And only a very naive Wolfean reader would think VRT's pussy cat is just a pussy cat. There were multiple groups of humans that came to St A/St C. Why would the abos, so famous for changing their appearance, be in only one form? ᚹ

Gerry Quinn30 Dec 2010, 03:05

↳ in reply to James Wynn

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From: "James Wynn" <crushtv at gmail.com> Gerry Quinn-

(I'm ignoring for the purposes of this point that the Shadow Children are human.

James Wynn- If Wolfe is to be credited, they are not.

Gerry Quinn- He also said Urth = Green, and look at the trouble THAT'S caused!

It doesn't mean it isn't true. It only means it has not been established HOW it is true. I think it is true. I only doubt that the Blue/Green sun is Urth's Sol.

Completely different planets, completely different biota, completely different stars, you get from one to the other in a generation ship...

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Gerry Quinn- As you say, he made some comment to that effect. But the book indicates otherwise, so I tend to believe he misspoke, though I guess theories about two groups of abos are tenable if one has some reason for believing that.

There are at least two OTHER groups of abos identified.

True, but the hillmen and marshmen seem to differ culturally, not biologically.

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Furthermore we KNOW abos sometimes take the forms of trees if the stories of their reproduction are to be believed. And only a very naive Wolfean reader would think VRT's pussy cat is just a pussy cat.

I don't know about the cat, but I am pretty sure the trees are not abos. There is some sexual symbolism / mythology regarding trees, and the abos seem to think the trees father children. Nevertheless male abos exist and have sex with females, who bear children as humans do.

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There were multiple groups of humans that came to St A/St C. Why would the abos, so famous for changing their appearance, be in only one form?

They copied the humans who landed first - presumably just one group, possibly monoracial. Abos have both genders and individual appearances. - Gerry Quinn

James Wynn30 Dec 2010, 04:29

↳ in reply to Gerry Quinn

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Gerry Quinn- He also said Urth = Green, and look at the trouble THAT'S caused!

J Wynn- It doesn't mean it isn't true. It only means it has not been established HOW it is true. I think it is true. I only doubt that the Blue/Green sun is Urth's Sol.

G Quinn- Completely different planets, completely different biota, completely different stars, you get from one to the other in a generation ship...

And yet, the author has something to say that throws a kink in our initial interpretation. This reasoning of yours is like a little child's who thinks his father has become scary when he puts on a halloween mask and no assurances from him will make a difference. That actors in westerns are actually cowboys. You created a category based on what you read, and you can't be influenced by evidence to the contrary because the categories are the categories.

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J Wynn- There are at least two OTHER groups of abos identified.

G Quinn- True, but the hillmen and marshmen seem to differ culturally, not biologically.

Seeming is not being. There's no evidence the marshmen are capable of psychic connections is there? We really don't have enough evidence on the matter. But even if it were true, the hillmen and marshmen sure seem a lot more human-like than the "Shadow Children" (for clarity's sake I'll labeling them as though the distinction were exclusive). This belies your argument. The Shadow Children are not so different in looks from Sandwalker that mere human differentiation could not account for it. They are far more different from humans in psychic abilities. Why not assume they are all human?

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J Wynn- Furthermore we KNOW abos sometimes take the forms of trees if the stories of their reproduction are to be believed. And only a very naive Wolfean reader would think VRT's pussy cat is just a pussy cat. There were multiple groups of humans that came to St A/St C. Why would the abos, so famous for changing their appearance, be in only one form?

G Quinn- I don't know about the cat, but I am pretty sure the trees are not abos. There is some sexual symbolism / mythology regarding trees, and the abos seem to think the trees father children. Nevertheless male abos exist and have sex with females, who bear children as humans do. They copied the humans who landed first - presumably just one group, possibly monoracial. Abos have both genders and individual appearances.

Hmmm...so when reference is made to trees during mating, that's sexual/symbolism--not to be taken literally--even though that is what the stories about abos among humanity say (such humanity as exists on St C). But gender differentiations could NOT be merely formal distinctions among an alien race MIMICKING human behavior. What evidence causes you to fall one way or another? Do you have an extra-textual model in mind that you are bringing to the story? ᚹ

Gerry Quinn30 Dec 2010, 05:47

↳ in reply to James Wynn

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From: "James Wynn" <crushtv at gmail.com> Gerry Quinn- He also said Urth = Green, and look at the trouble THAT'S caused!

J Wynn- It doesn't mean it isn't true. It only means it has not been established HOW it is true. I think it is true. I only doubt that the Blue/Green sun is Urth's Sol.

G Quinn- Completely different planets, completely different biota, completely different stars, you get from one to the other in a generation ship...

And yet, the author has something to say that throws a kink in our initial interpretation. This reasoning of yours is like a little child's who thinks his father has become scary when he puts on a halloween mask and no assurances from him will make a difference. That actors in westerns are actually cowboys. You created a category based on what you read, and you can't be influenced by evidence to the contrary because the categories are the categories.

Correct me if I'm wrong - but didn't Wolfe say he was joking when he said Urth is Green, and that he regretted it? And do you not accept that the four points I made are somewhat cogent when it comes to the question of whether these planets are the same?

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J Wynn- There are at least two OTHER groups of abos identified.

G Quinn- True, but the hillmen and marshmen seem to differ culturally, not biologically.

Seeming is not being.

All the universe of the story is in the book 5HoC - if "seeming" means "what the text tells us", then seeming is in fact being. But anyway that is beside the point. If you are saying there could be other possibilities than the obvious, of course you are right.

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There's no evidence the marshmen are capable of psychic connections is there?

Eastwind located his twin and had him captured - the twins' connection works both ways. Of course Eastwind was born a hillman. Do you mean the psychic connection between Sandwalker and the Shadow Children? It's true that no marshman[*] is shown to be capable of that, but there is also no evidence that they are not. The Shadow Children say "it is a long time since we took a Shadow-friend from among the native populace" - they do not indicate that there are different types of natives. [*] I almost wrote "marschman" for some reason, and then for a moment I wondered if there was any connection between "marsh" and "Marsch". But I don;t think there's anything there - the human mind can make infinitely many links... and not all can be meaningful.

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We really don't have enough evidence on the matter. But even if it were true, the hillmen and marshmen sure seem a lot more human-like than the "Shadow Children" (for clarity's sake I'll labeling them as though the distinction were exclusive). This belies your argument. The Shadow Children are not so different in looks from Sandwalker that mere human differentiation could not account for it. They are far more different from humans in psychic abilities. Why not assume they are all human?

The Shadow Children do give an explanation for their powers. They also indicate that their psychic powers in part come from the native population (the astral travelling in Short Sun that requires both humans and inhumi echoes this). The idea that all the 'abos' are human is interesting, but it discards all the evidence for shapeshifting etc.

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J Wynn- Furthermore we KNOW abos sometimes take the forms of trees if the stories of their reproduction are to be believed. And only a very naive Wolfean reader would think VRT's pussy cat is just a pussy cat. There were multiple groups of humans that came to St A/St C. Why would the abos, so famous for changing their appearance, be in only one form?

G Quinn- I don't know about the cat, but I am pretty sure the trees are not abos. There is some sexual symbolism / mythology regarding trees, and the abos seem to think the trees father children. Nevertheless male abos exist and have sex with females, who bear children as humans do. They copied the humans who landed first - presumably just one group, possibly monoracial. Abos have both genders and individual appearances.

Hmmm...so when reference is made to trees during mating, that's sexual/symbolism--not to be taken literally--even though that is what the stories about abos among humanity say (such humanity as exists on St C).

The main reason I don't take it literally is that Sandwalker and Seven Girls Waiting mate in the ordinary way.

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But gender differentiations could NOT be merely formal distinctions among an alien race MIMICKING human behavior. What evidence causes you to fall one way or another? Do you have an extra-textual model in mind that you are bringing to the story?

I don't totally discount the possibility that the abos have some weird biology in which trees are male and smaller mobile abos are female, except when they are imitating males of another species. I just don't see much evidence for it. That the symbolism is evident to the abos themselves is not in doubt: "His tree had grown large, and she wrapped it with her hands." And of course all this is filtered through the mind of VRT, who may have created his own concept of abo mythology. No doubt he has been taught something of it by his mother, but his ideas are likely distorted. Also, there is some meta-fictional play within the story; David in the first novella could not reasonably know much of abo culture, yet some of what he says appears in the second novella. - Gerry Quinn

James Wynn30 Dec 2010, 09:34

↳ in reply to Gerry Quinn

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G Quinn- Correct me if I'm wrong - but didn't Wolfe say he was joking when he said Urth is Green, and that he regretted it?

Well, he said he should just keep his mouth shut. It's a pretty random joke if that's all it was. The nasty sarcasm in such a joke totally alien to my interactions with Wolfe. But none of that explains the actual textual references in the novel.

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And do you not accept that the four points I made are somewhat cogent when it comes to the question of whether these planets are the same?

What we have is a paradox. These planets cannot be the same. But the story has some very significant that references that equate the Green and possibly the City of the Inhumi with Urth and the Neighbors and their culture with Urth and Nessus and humanity. I think we should embrace the paradox in order to find out what is going on. Pretending nothing weird is going on is not going to get us anywhere. I puzzled for years over why Hyancinth was like the shape-changing Ladley Worm before coming to a conclusion.

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If you are saying there could be other possibilities than the obvious, of course you are right.

That's usually true with Wolfe. But there is nothing obvious about the "Shadow Children". They tell multiple stories about their origins. I believe as many of them as I possibly can.

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There's no evidence the marshmen are capable of psychic connections is there?

Eastwind located his twin and had him captured - the twins' connection works both ways. Of course Eastwind was born a hillman.

Yeah, like Sandwalker. So we agree that there is no evidence that the marshmen have such powers. But, obviously, I wouldn't be surprised if they did. Hillmen, marshmen, little people--they are all abos. When Sandwalker psychically connected to the Shadow Children, he became one...because biologically they are not really different.

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Do you mean the psychic connection between Sandwalker and the Shadow Children? It's true that no marshman[*] is shown to be capable of that, but there is also no evidence that they are not.

Ummm...Can I use that sort of argument for one my theories in the future?

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The Shadow Children say "it is a long time since we took a Shadow-friend from among the native populace" - they do not indicate that there are different types of natives.

Not in this specific quote.

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[*] I almost wrote "marschman" for some reason, and then for a moment I wondered if there was any connection between "marsh" and "Marsch". But I don;t think there's anything there - the human mind can make infinitely many links... and not all can be meaningful.

The link was obviously intended by Wolfe. I have always presumed the name implied that VRT is of the Marshman branch. One can debate over what is intended. However, it is doubtful that a pun like that would have been missed by the author. The name Marsch was not picked at random. It's not a common name.

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The Shadow Children do give an explanation for their powers. They also indicate that their psychic powers in part come from the native population (the astral travelling in Short Sun that requires both humans and inhumi echoes this).

There's no evidence that any human in the universe except the Rajan can astral travel with the aid of inhumi. Well, you know why this makes sense to me. I don't remember this quote about where their powers come from. I'm sure it can't be emphatic. As for where they come from, the "Shadow Children" have some interesting things to say about that. They say they "either came here recently or long, long ago". They say this twice. Well, of course both are true. They are abos (long, long ago) who replaced humans (recently) and took on their history. They say "We had no names before men came out of the sky. We were mostly long and lived in holes in the roots of trees". We could debate what that means, but it doesn't imply they were always human. I don't make much of the shadow children saying they came from Gondwanaland, but I believe these statements.

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The idea that all the 'abos' are human is interesting, but it discards all the evidence for shapeshifting etc.

I certainly never implied such an idea. But you made much of the apparent lack of biological difference between the hillmen and marshmen as opposed to the "shadow children". I was pointing out that the differences should be irrelevant to you since you believe that the inhuman shadow children are human and the hillmen and marshmen are not.

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The main reason I don't take it literally is that Sandwalker and Seven Girls Waiting mate in the ordinary way.

How so? I seem to recall a tree involved. As expected, based on lore.

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I don't totally discount the possibility that the abos have some weird biology in which trees are male and smaller mobile abos are female, except when they are imitating males of another species. I just don't see much evidence for it.

It seems to me to be staring us in the face.

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That the symbolism is evident to the abos themselves is not in doubt: "His tree had grown large, and she wrapped it with her hands."

hello!

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And of course all this is filtered through the mind of VRT, who may have created his own concept of abo mythology. No doubt he has been taught something of it by his mother, but his ideas are likely distorted.

It seems unlikely to me in the extreme that abos and humans could breed. Much more so in a story in which evolutionary theory takes so large a role. VRT is playing the role of the son of his mother's father.

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Also, there is some meta-fictional play within the story; David in the first novella could not reasonably know much of abo culture, yet some of what he says appears in the second novella.

The second novella was written by a psychic being who was in David's house for quite a while. He has Sandwalker dream one of Number Five's dreams as well. ᚹ

James Wynn30 Dec 2010, 10:08

↳ in reply to James Wynn

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On 12/30/2010 3:34 AM, James Wynn wrote: VRT is playing the role of the son of his mother's father.

Mother's husband that is.

Lee Berman30 Dec 2010, 12:21

↳ follows, by subject match James Wynn

James, we may still disagree on Aunt Jeannine's assessment of whether abos retain their imitative abilities while in human guise, but that was a truly impressive display of knowledge, insight and patience in your explication of 5HoC to Gerry. Bravo!

Ryan Dunn30 Dec 2010, 14:54

↳ in reply to James Wynn

Is it possible that the passage in CotA about the "divine year" opens up a window to the idea that all of these are the same planet in different universe cycles? Could this be a product of recycling reestablished world building without reinventing it each time? I have not read Long Sun so my question is more prodding than anything, but thought I would ask. ...ryan

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On Dec 30, 2010, at 3:34 AM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote: And do you not accept that the four points I made are somewhat cogent when it comes to the question of whether these planets are the same?

What we have is a paradox. These planets cannot be the same. But the story has some very significant that references that equate the Green and possibly the City of the Inhumi with Urth and the Neighbors and their culture with Urth and Nessus and humanity. I think we should embrace the paradox in order to find out what is going on. Pretending nothing weird is going on is not going to get us anywhere. I puzzled for years over why Hyancinth was like the shape-changing Ladley Worm before coming to a conclusion.

James Wynn30 Dec 2010, 16:00

↳ in reply to Lee Berman

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Lee- James, we may still disagree on Aunt Jeannine's assessment of whether abos retain their imitative abilities while in human guise...

Well, I agree they RETAIN it in theory. But they can't use it. VRT stays in his prison, not because he CAN'T escape but because he can't imitate John V. Marsch and escape. Marsch could not get through those bars and so neither can he. Thus Veil's paradox is answered. Veil is only wrong in arguing that the abos would cease to exist if they could perfectly mimic humans. Humanity sees themselves as gods compared to their environment (the Shadow Children say something like that when remembering their appropriated human history). But in fact they are insignificant. ᚹ

Lee Berman30 Dec 2010, 16:06

↳ follows, by subject match James Wynn

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Ryan Dunn: Is it possible that the passage in CotA about the "divine year" opens up a window to the idea that all of these are the same planet in different universe cycles? Could this be a product of recycling reestablished world building without reinventing it each time? I have not read Long Sun so my question is more prodding than anything, but thought I would ask.

I think it is worth asking. Tzadkiel's Ship seems to travel the length of the universe to get to its end and on to the higher one. I think most would agree the Whorl doesn't do this. My best conception of the Bang/Gnab universes is as an ascending coil or spiral (shape supported by Apheta's cave). This shape would actually allow a portal from one universe to the one just above or below to facilitate transport even more quickly and easily than driving the length of your own universe/coil. If you had the right mechanism. (I think it is possible that just the city or even portions of the city are extending across planets; perhaps also across universes?)

James Wynn30 Dec 2010, 16:17

↳ in reply to Ryan Dunn

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Ryan Dunn- Is it possible that the passage in CotA about the "divine year" opens up a window to the idea that all of these are the same planet in different universe cycles? Could this be a product of recycling reestablished world building without reinventing it each time?

I suggested this recently. There are problems with it. http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2010-December/020017.html ᚹ

Marc Aramini30 Dec 2010, 16:26

↳ in reply to Gerry Quinn

Gerry, I have to comment on this whole mess. i was in contact with Wolfe very frequently at about that time when the light started to turn on for Short Sun for me in 2002, and I sent him my ideas about trees hybridizing and Horn in Babbie but I said I couldn't find a way for the transport across space to zero in on Blue at that different time. He sent me a letter written on a manuscript page from IGJ, but I still didn't see anything there. So I sent him a Christmas card with a long haired man with a staff, and I drew a little face on the staff, and inside was a christmas tree, and I put scary teeth in the tree, and big eyes, and I asked if the astral transport through the distance of space that the ship in UotNS went through allowed blue to be Urth, and he sent his own Christmas card, and on the back, it said, no, no, no Green is urth. And that's where I become the bad guy, because I first posted that Gene had told me something, Nick Gevers frantically convinced me to share it with him, he confronted Gene in disbelief, Gene told Nick he was joking because Nick's attitude to me when he heard it was "he's pulling your leg."? Gene never told me he was joking, he just told me he should have learned to keep his mouth shut by now. But my problem, that they were planning on going to green, and wound up on Urth which I thought should be Blue, was solved by these words, and there is a mechanism for that mistaken transport in the text which was not there for Blue=Urth. Whether the discussion ever discovers what Blue or Green is, or whether they are connected, I believe what Gene told me, and I am very sorry that my inquiries led to him being so harassed. In eschatology and genesis it states anything can emerge from the black hole at the center of the sun. --- On Wed, 12/29/10, Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie> wrote: He also said Urth = Green, and look at the trouble THAT'S caused! As you say, he made some comment to that effect. But the book indicates otherwise, so I tend to believe he misspoke, though I guess theories about two groups of abos are tenable if one has some reason for believing that. - Gerry Quinn

James Wynn30 Dec 2010, 16:32

↳ in reply to Marc Aramini

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Marc Aramini- He sent me a letter written on a manuscript page from IGJ, but I still didn't see anything there.

What page was it? ᚹ

Son of Witz30 Dec 2010, 17:25

↳ in reply to Ryan Dunn

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On Dec 30, 2010, at 6:54 AM, Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com> wrote: Is it possible that the passage in CotA about the "divine year" opens up a window to the idea that all of these are the same planet in different universe cycles? Could this be a product of recycling reestablished world building without reinventing it each time? I have not read Long Sun so my question is more prodding than anything, but thought I would ask. ...ryan

OH MY GOD, RYAN! Read it! Considering what you're up to. Plus, dunnoh if this happened to you, but my first read of BotNS was befuddling and frustrating. It opened up later. Long Sun was thrilling and fascinating from the get go, at all points. You don't have to discover the Second House to enjoy Long Sun. Oh my god you're gonna love it. Read read read!

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On Dec 30, 2010, at 3:34 AM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:

And do you not accept that the four points I made are somewhat cogent when it comes to the question of whether these planets are the same?

What we have is a paradox. These planets cannot be the same. But the story has some very significant that references that equate the Green and possibly the City of the Inhumi with Urth and the Neighbors and their culture with Urth and Nessus and humanity. I think we should embrace the paradox in order to find out what is going on. Pretending nothing weird is going on is not going to get us anywhere. I puzzled for years over why Hyancinth was like the shape-changing Ladley Worm before coming to a conclusion.

_______________________________________________

Jeff Wilson30 Dec 2010, 17:30

↳ in reply to Lee Berman

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On 12/30/2010 10:06 AM, Lee Berman wrote:

Ryan Dunn: Is it possible that the passage in CotA about the "divine year" opens up a window to the idea that all of these are the same planet in different universe cycles? Could this be a product of recycling reestablished world building without reinventing it each time? I have not read Long Sun so my question is more prodding than anything, but thought I would ask.

I think it is worth asking. Tzadkiel's Ship seems to travel the length of the universe to get to its end and on to the higher one. I think most would agree the Whorl doesn't do this. My best conception of the Bang/Gnab universes is as an ascending coil or spiral (shape supported by Apheta's cave). This shape would actually allow a portal from one universe to the one just above or below to facilitate transport even more quickly and easily than driving the length of your own universe/coil. If you had the right mechanism.

My reading also supports this, though the gradual ascenscion of the Briah spiral may be very gradual, and not monotonically upward; some cosmic years may lose ground, leaving the Yesodis fretting to undo the tangle. Which they can, via the Corridors, though with much finer instruments than Tzadkiel's cyclopean Ship.

Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >

Son of Witz30 Dec 2010, 17:35

↳ in reply to Marc Aramini

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On Dec 30, 2010, at 8:26 AM, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at yahoo.com> wrote: and he sent his own Christmas card, and on the back, it said, no, no, no Green is urth.

Scan that shit already, dude. ~witz

Marc Aramini30 Dec 2010, 18:16

↳ in reply to James Wynn

The manuscript page was? In Greens Jungles p 339. I looked on that page in the book and suddenly I realized maybe he was pointing my attention to that page in the published book instead of what he sent me. That guy is tricky!. — I can't find this actual page in the book right now so I'm just going to type half of it here and maybe you can find it. "they're moving again. This is it."? "They're not galloping," I protested. "Trotting."? They won't gallop until they're up close. Did you think they would?" "I nodded. "It would be better if they did." "that's why they don't." He nudged me to make sure I understood taht he was joking. "you've never seen a charge?" "I have, but they are much closer." "they will be." "I started for Kupus' unevein line of men and boys with slug guns, but Inclito caught my elbow. "the women and sprats are scare already, remember? The men are, too, and I mean you and me. So walk." ......etc the page ends with "Something - some stir, perhaps, among the women and elderly - So let's look at both pages, pg 339 and this one, in In Green's Jungles. --- On Thu, 12/30/10, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> Subject: Re: (urth) Losing Imitation To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net> Date: Thursday, December 30, 2010, 8:32 AM Marc Aramini- He sent me a letter written on a manuscript page from IGJ, but I still didn't see anything there.

What page was it? ᚹ

Gerry Quinn30 Dec 2010, 19:52

↳ in reply to James Wynn

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From: "James Wynn" <crushtv at gmail.com> G Quinn-

Correct me if I'm wrong - but didn't Wolfe say he was joking when he said Urth is Green, and that he regretted it?

Well, he said he should just keep his mouth shut. It's a pretty random joke if that's all it was. The nasty sarcasm in such a joke totally alien to my interactions with Wolfe. But none of that explains the actual textual references in the novel.

What textual references? There may be some metaphorical references, but I don't recall anywhere at all where the text seems to be seriously implying that these planets are literally the same place.

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And do you not accept that the four points I made are somewhat cogent when it comes to the question of whether these planets are the same?

What we have is a paradox. These planets cannot be the same. But the story has some very significant that references that equate the Green and possibly the City of the Inhumi with Urth and the Neighbors and their culture with Urth and Nessus and humanity. I think we should embrace the paradox in order to find out what is going on. Pretending nothing weird is going on is not going to get us anywhere.

I think you are only seeing a paradox because you take certain metaphors too literally. I have yet to be convinced that there is any paradox to embrace (or otherwise solve).

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If you are saying there could be other possibilities than the obvious, of course you are right.

That's usually true with Wolfe. But there is nothing obvious about the "Shadow Children". They tell multiple stories about their origins. I believe as many of them as I possibly can.

They don't really, if you read with care.

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There's no evidence the marshmen are capable of psychic connections is there?

Eastwind located his twin and had him captured - the twins' connection works both ways. Of course Eastwind was born a hillman.

Yeah, like Sandwalker. So we agree that there is no evidence that the marshmen have such powers. But, obviously, I wouldn't be surprised if they did. Hillmen, marshmen, little people--they are all abos. When Sandwalker psychically connected to the Shadow Children, he became one...because biologically they are not really different.

I can't remember any indication that Sandwalker ever became a Shadow child - where do you get this from?

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Do you mean the psychic connection between Sandwalker and the Shadow Children? It's true that no marshman[*] is shown to be capable of that, but there is also no evidence that they are not.

Ummm...Can I use that sort of argument for one my theories in the future?

Sure, when it's appropriate!

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The Shadow Children say "it is a long time since we took a Shadow-friend from among the native populace" - they do not indicate that there are different types of natives.

Not in this specific quote.

Do they anywhere?

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[*] I almost wrote "marschman" for some reason, and then for a moment I wondered if there was any connection between "marsh" and "Marsch". But I don;t think there's anything there - the human mind can make infinitely many links... and not all can be meaningful.

The link was obviously intended by Wolfe. I have always presumed the name implied that VRT is of the Marshman branch. One can debate over what is intended. However, it is doubtful that a pun like that would have been missed by the author. The name Marsch was not picked at random. It's not a common name.

What name in 5HoC is? Whatever name he picked, one could come up with a bunch of associations. There's no point making much of it unless they are backed up by other evidence.

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The Shadow Children do give an explanation for their powers. They also indicate that their psychic powers in part come from the native population (the astral travelling in Short Sun that requires both humans and inhumi echoes this).

There's no evidence that any human in the universe except the Rajan can astral travel with the aid of inhumi. Well, you know why this makes sense to me. I don't remember this quote about where their powers come from. I'm sure it can't be emphatic

"Once there was a people using their hands - when they had hands - only to take food; there came among them another who crossed from star to star. Then it was found that the first heard the sogs of the second and sent them out again - greater, greater, greater than before. Then the second felt their songs more strongly in all their bones - but touched, perhaps, by the first." As the Shadow Children are killed, the Old Wise One derives an increasing proportion of his mentality from Sandwalker and becomes confused as to the respective identities of the two (count 'em, two - not one, not three) peoples. But this is really not hard to explain..

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. As for where they come from, the "Shadow Children" have some interesting things to say about that. They say they "either came here recently or long, long ago". They say this twice. Well, of course both are true. They are abos (long, long ago) who replaced humans (recently) and took on their history.

And just how do you think they "took on their history"? There's no need for any of these complex theories when you realise that the Old Wise One (the source for all this information) is increasingly composed from more of Sandwalker and less of the Shadow Children, which causes him to suffer some confusion of identity. [Wolfe spells it out by showing him getting taller (a bit like SilkHorn again), and he even says "Now I am half a man".]

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They say "We had no names before men came out of the sky. We were mostly long and lived in holes in the roots of trees". We could debate what that means, but it doesn't imply they were always human. I don't make much of the shadow children saying they came from Gondwanaland, but I believe these statements.

And you are right - the Old Wise One, who says this, is referring to the abo part of him. The speaker is the Old Wise One, who at this time is only half a Shadow Child. (Even Sandwalker corrects him on this point.)

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The idea that all the 'abos' are human is interesting, but it discards all the evidence for shapeshifting etc.

I certainly never implied such an idea. But you made much of the apparent lack of biological difference between the hillmen and marshmen as opposed to the "shadow children". I was pointing out that the differences should be irrelevant to you since you believe that the inhuman shadow children are human and the hillmen and marshmen are not.

Not sure what you are saying here to be honest.

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The main reason I don't take it literally is that Sandwalker and Seven Girls Waiting mate in the ordinary way.

How so? I seem to recall a tree involved. As expected, based on lore.

I don't totally discount the possibility that the abos have some weird biology in which trees are male and smaller mobile abos are female, except when they are imitating males of another species. I just don't see much evidence for it.

It seems to me to be staring us in the face.

That the symbolism is evident to the abos themselves is not in doubt: "His tree had grown large, and she wrapped it with her hands."

hello!

Do you mean you think this is referring not to Sandwalker's penis, but to some kinkiness involving an actual tree? Sandwalker's own special tree, at that, which isn't mentioned in the text but happened to be just where he found the bees, out in the wilderness? He moved her shoulders gently. "No," she said, "not on top of me. I'd split. I'd be sick. Like this." She's stuffed with honey and bee larvae, and isn't keen on the missionary position. There's no actual tree around anyway, but even if there was I imagine she'd have been even less inclined to climb up it to do whatever you imagine abo girls do with trees! Nope, the imitation extends to mating. Now you might point out that the inhumi have a sort of spiritual mating as humans before they do their reptile thing, and arguably the chems could also be said to parody human mating. But as regards the abos, we know the women at least gestate and bear and feed young just as humans do.

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And of course all this is filtered through the mind of VRT, who may have created his own concept of abo mythology. No doubt he has been taught something of it by his mother, but his ideas are likely distorted.

It seems unlikely to me in the extreme that abos and humans could breed. Much more so in a story in which evolutionary theory takes so large a role. VRT is playing the role of the son of his mother's father.

I don't think biological evolutionary theory plays much part in 5HoC. Cultural evolution is much more key. Besides, by the same token the plants and animals of the twin planets should be inedible to humans, but they aren't. But anyway, there's no reason to suppose that abos and humans can interbreed if you don't want to. VRT could have had an abo father, who would - from what we know of abo culture - have had as little to do with his upbringing as he would have if in truth he were a tree. Abo women can live with human males - whether or not they look elsewhere for impregnation is not stated. [One could hypothesise a cuckoo lifestyle, in which the abo child takes on certain physical characteristics of the supposed human father in order to gull him into acceptance of the child - indeed, it would be a more plausible mechanism for whatever truth there is in Veil's Hypothesis than vampiric abos pouncing on random humans in the night and replacing them; the situation with Marsch was very unusual. But this is really an unknown - I don't believe there is enough textual evidence to say anything definitive about it.]

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Also, there is some meta-fictional play within the story; David in the first novella could not reasonably know much of abo culture, yet some of what he says appears in the second novella.

The second novella was written by a psychic being who was in David's house for quite a while. He has Sandwalker dream one of Number Five's dreams as well.

I personally prefer the metafictional idea here, but perhaps you are right. But if so there are considerable problems believing anything in the second novella. For example, it is David who asserts that the abos mated with trees. - Gerry Quinn

Roy C. Lackey31 Dec 2010, 08:39

↳ in reply to Gerry Quinn

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Gerry Quinn quoted and wrote: From: "James Wynn" <crushtv at gmail.com> G Quinn-

Correct me if I'm wrong - but didn't Wolfe say he was joking when he said Urth is Green, and that he regretted it?

Well, he said he should just keep his mouth shut. It's a pretty random joke if that's all it was. The nasty sarcasm in such a joke totally alien to my interactions with Wolfe. But none of that explains the actual textual references in the novel.

What textual references? There may be some metaphorical references, but I don't recall anywhere at all where the text seems to be seriously implying that these planets are literally the same place.

And do you not accept that the four points I made are somewhat cogent when it comes to the question of whether these planets are the same?

What we have is a paradox. These planets cannot be the same. But the story has some very significant that references that equate the Green and possibly the City of the Inhumi with Urth and the Neighbors and their culture with Urth and Nessus and humanity. I think we should embrace the paradox in order to find out what is going on. Pretending nothing weird is going on is not going to get us anywhere.

I think you are only seeing a paradox because you take certain metaphors too literally. I have yet to be convinced that there is any paradox to embrace (or otherwise solve).

It isn't going to make any difference; I know because I've been through this before, but I have to say something before I just get disgusted and leave the List, which is probably what I should do anyway. Facts are facts, regardless of who likes them or doesn't. There seem to be some people left who put more stock in the text than fanciful interpretations that belie it or distort it beyond reason. Maybe this will interest those people. There has been a lot of crap bandied about of late that I don't have the time or interest to get involved with, but one issue, the notion that the City of the Inhumi is actually Nessus, really bugs me. It just isn't so, and no amount of wishing will make it so. Silkhorn wrote down the story he told at dinner at Inclito's house about Horn's encounter with the Neighbor on Green who wanted him to clear the sewer. He wrote: "The buildings of that city were not built by the inhumi themselves, for the inhumi do not like tools or use them skillfully. Its builders were the Vanished People, the same master builders who began this gracious house of yours." (IGJ, 60) And to anticipate the argument that Silkhorn doesn't know where he is or Horn was, there is the testimony of the same Neighbor. After walking through the ruins of the city that is crumbling under the onslaught of the encroaching jungle, the Neighbor said: --------------- "How we deceived ourselves!" the man of the Vanished People who had been his guide said. "We thought we were building here for the ages. Another thousand years, and everything you see will be gone." (63) --------------- Even if Silkhorn had his head up his ass, I don't see how anyone could believe that the Neighbors didn't know who they were, where they came from, or what they themselves had built. And to suggest that the Neighbor just lied is not credible. There are other details that unimaginative assholes like me notice that indicate that the City on Green is not Nessus. The black sword that Horn was given came from a selection of swords inside a "bronze tablet" (23) that was located in a ruined building. There was a black sheath that came with it, and a sword belt with many thin straps (24) that "had never been intended for such a body as his (61). That is, not a human body. Soon after Horn and the Neighbor entered the sewer they came to "an altar of bronze and stone" (64). Behind it was an image too worn for Horn to make out what it looked like. The Neighbor told him, "This was our goddess of purity". That is, it was a Neighbor shrine for a Neighbor goddess. Horn prayed to it and was rewarded with the little light that he used in the sewer. There is no doubt about it; the ruined City on Green was built by the Neighbors, for the Neighbors and used by the Neighbors before they abandoned it. If this is another "asinine" reading by me of the simple textual facts, so be it. Gerry, you seem to have gotten all over you a lot of crap that really has more to do with me than you, as you have probably figured out by now. Sorry about that, but I'm not flinging it. <g> -Roy

Lee Berman31 Dec 2010, 14:12

↳ follows, by subject match Roy C. Lackey

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Roy C. Lackey: There is no doubt about it; the ruined City on Green was built by the Neighbors, for the Neighbors and used by the Neighbors before they abandoned it. If this is another "asinine" reading by me of the simple textual facts, so be it.

"Asinine" and "unimaginative asshole" are terrible things to call someone. Roy, you've received high praise for your contributions to the lupine world many times in the past and present and I wish to join in that. But is it possible for a bit of imagination to help? Marc finds evidence that the ruins on Green are like Nessus. Roy says this is impossible because the ruins on Green were built by Neighbors. Must one be wrong and the other right? James finds paradox. For me, understanding paradox is like understanding an optical illusion. Flip your perspective and recognize the truth in both views. What if Nessus, on Urth was built (at least partially) by Neighbors? Do we know when Nessus was first built? Is it impossible that it was built during a time period when Urth was part of an interstellar empire with back and forth commerce and travel for both humans and aliens? Fomalhaut is a pretty close star. Could this be the source of the name "Neighbors"? Gerry has noted that Fomalhaut is a red star in BotNS. But so is Sol. Both are young stars now; neither is red now. Perhaps Wolfe was hinting at a similar stellar history. Perhaps there is the suggestion that any Fomalhaut planets may have gone through periods of black holes in the sun and the subsequent white fountain recovery + Flood. The Fish references only bolster the idea that aliens on Urth may have come from a flooded planet. Robert Borski has suggested that the multi-limbs (and heads?) of Neighbors is an auctorial clue that Blue is the home planet of Typhon. Father Inire and The Cumaean are supposed to be aliens. What planet do they come from? How could Typhon, Inire and the Cumaean (none of whom have saint names) come from the same place? They are so different. It might be possible if their home star had two planets and two species. Is it possible the Neighbor-Inhumi conflict/interaction was played out in Urth's history as well as on Blue and Green? I'll leave it at that for now, just saying that I prefer such a synthesis of everyone's ideas to each insisting they are correct and all others wrong. Gerry likes to insist that some ideas are bad but I have respect for all the people (Roy, Borski, Marc, etc.) who have contributed their well-thought out and researched ideas here.

Lee Berman31 Dec 2010, 14:17

↳ follows, by subject match Lee Berman

oh, yeah, forgot to mention that Roy's mention of the jungle-covered ruins on Green really do remind me of the moss-covered ruins of Nessus that Severian sees downriver on the Samru. Seemed worth adding.

Gerry Quinn31 Dec 2010, 14:28

↳ in reply to Marc Aramini

I shouldn't fret too much about it - I'm sure most authors, however much being questioned by enthusiasts for their works annoys them, would be more annoyed still if it all went away ;-) Have you considered the possibility that "Urth is Green" has a metaphorical meaning? That Green is what Earth/Urth can become if we lose our humanity? It would seem to fit reasonably well with the themes Wolfe is exploring in the Short Sun trilogy. - Gerry Quinn ----- Original Message ----- From: Marc Aramini To: The Urth Mailing List Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 4:26 PM Subject: Re: (urth) Losing Imitation Gerry, I have to comment on this whole mess. i was in contact with Wolfe very frequently at about that time when the light started to turn on for Short Sun for me in 2002, and I sent him my ideas about trees hybridizing and Horn in Babbie but I said I couldn't find a way for the transport across space to zero in on Blue at that different time. He sent me a letter written on a manuscript page from IGJ, but I still didn't see anything there. So I sent him a Christmas card with a long haired man with a staff, and I drew a little face on the staff, and inside was a christmas tree, and I put scary teeth in the tree, and big eyes, and I asked if the astral transport through the distance of space that the ship in UotNS went through allowed blue to be Urth, and he sent his own Christmas card, and on the back, it said, no, no, no Green is urth. And that's where I become the bad guy, because I first posted that Gene had told me something, Nick Gevers frantically convinced me to share it with him, he confronted Gene in disbelief, Gene told Nick he was joking because Nick's attitude to me when he heard it was "he's pulling your leg." Gene never told me he was joking, he just told me he should have learned to keep his mouth shut by now. But my problem, that they were planning on going to green, and wound up on Urth which I thought should be Blue, was solved by these words, and there is a mechanism for that mistaken transport in the text which was not there for Blue=Urth. Whether the discussion ever discovers what Blue or Green is, or whether they are connected, I believe what Gene told me, and I am very sorry that my inquiries led to him being so harassed. In eschatology and genesis it states anything can emerge from the black hole at the center of the sun. --- On Wed, 12/29/10, Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie> wrote: He also said Urth = Green, and look at the trouble THAT'S caused! As you say, he made some comment to that effect. But the book indicates otherwise, so I tend to believe he misspoke, though I guess theories about two groups of abos are tenable if one has some reason for believing that. - Gerry Quinn _______________________________________________

Marc Aramini31 Dec 2010, 15:41

↳ in reply to Lee Berman

Roy, if Green is Urth, the Neighbors are what people become, I think. That's all. You know, the "Vanished People". Is that such an impossible asssertion? --- On Fri, 12/31/10, Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote: oh, yeah, forgot to mention that Roy's mention of the jungle-covered ruins on Green really do remind me of the moss-covered ruins of Nessus that Severian sees downriver on the Samru. Seemed worth adding. ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ?

Lee Berman31 Dec 2010, 15:49

↳ follows, by subject match Gerry Quinn

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Gerry Quinn: Have you considered the possibility that "Urth is Green" has a metaphorical meaning? That Green is what Earth/Urth can become if we lose our humanity? It would seem to fit reasonably well with the themes Wolfe is exploring in the Short Sun trilogy.

I think this is insightful. Still, being SF, I think Wolfe tends to take what is metaphor on Earth and turn it into reality on Urth ("fleshed from dreams", so to speak). I think there is evidence that humans on Urth during Severian's time DID lose their humanity, evidenced by the relentless institutionalized cruelty with which they treat each other, both in the Commonwealth and in Ascia, the only two places on Urth we are able to see. Likewise, there is evidence that the Neighbors lost their..erm...Neighborhoodiness?..on Green and did not treat other beings in their star system (including in the Whorl) very well. We could haggle over time frames, but I think there is a suggestion that the star (whatever it might be named) of Blue and Green may have gone through a black hole/white fountain process affecting both planets.

Marc Aramini31 Dec 2010, 15:55

↳ in reply to Marc Aramini

Let me get all your rebuttals in order, because I feel like we just argue in circles and circles. 1) The vegetation and life are too different. - I think vegetative evolution and hybridization is going on. This quote from shadow of the torturer, chapter 2: "Two thoughts (that were nearly dreams) obsessed me and made them infinitely precious. The first was that at some not-distant time, time itself would stop .... the colored days that had so long been drawn forth like a chain of conjuror?s scarves come to an end, the sullen sun wink out at last. The second was that there existed somewhere a miraculous light - which I sometimes conceived of as a candle, sometimes as a flambeau - that engendered life in whatever objects it fell upon, so that a leaf plucked from a bush grew slender legs and waving feelers, and a rough brown brush opened black eyes and scurried up a tree." (Shadow and Claw 18) As early as Chapter 2 of New Sun, the coming of the New Sun is animating vegetation. All life left on green is a result of that hybridization. 2) Time travel is not involved in Silk's astral travel - he shows up in the story in the past at the beginning of iGJ 3)? The neighbors made the city on Green - I think the people of Urth are the neighbors, or will become them. 4) Rigoglio is responsible for them winding up on Urth. The text at least shows that Silk is thinking of Green at a time before it was corrupted? and his son Sinew when they make the jump. This muddles the jump. 5) What is blue, and how do you see the light from space? paradoxes explain everything, baby. But seriously, this is what we need to work on. Saying the neighbors built green or that Silk says they are different places are not very useful as absolute refutation because he does not even understand who he is. In RttW I can quote Silk as saying "I am Horn.", but the end, where "Silk nodded" works against that assertion. I honestly believe Gene sat down and said, who, what, when, where, and how are going to be very hard to distinguish in this book, and a central mystery answers all of these questions. Even Horn's fate is answered by paying attention to the vegetation. n Fri, 12/31/10, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at yahoo.com> wrote: From: Marc Aramini <marcaramini at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: (urth) City on Green To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net> Date: Friday, December 31, 2010, 7:41 AM Roy, if Green is Urth, the Neighbors are what people become, I think. That's all. You know, the "Vanished People". Is that such an impossible asssertion? --- On Fri, 12/31/10, Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote: oh, yeah, forgot to mention that Roy's mention of the jungle-covered ruins on Green really do remind me of the moss-covered ruins of Nessus that Severian sees downriver on the Samru. Seemed worth adding. ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows-----

Marc Aramini31 Dec 2010, 16:09

↳ in reply to Marc Aramini

Anybody ever notice any planetary statements in Empires of Foliage and Flower? Need to go over that again I guess. Oh, Father Thyme :(

Son of Witz31 Dec 2010, 17:02

↳ in reply to Roy C. Lackey

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On Dec 31, 2010, at 12:39 AM, "Roy C. Lackey" <rclackey at stic.net> wrote: It isn't going to make any difference; I know because I've been through this before, but I have to say something before I just get disgusted and leave the List, which is probably what I should do anyway. Facts are facts, regardless of who likes them or doesn't. There seem to be some people left who put more stock in the text than fanciful interpretations that belie it or distort it beyond reason. Maybe this will interest those people. There has been a lot of crap bandied about of late that I don't have the time or interest to get involved with, but one issue, the notion that the City of the Inhumi is actually Nessus, really bugs me. It just isn't so, and no amount of wishing will make it so. Silkhorn wrote down the story he told at dinner at Inclito's house about Horn's encounter with the Neighbor on Green who wanted him to clear the sewer. He wrote: "The buildings of that city were not built by the inhumi themselves, for the inhumi do not like tools or use them skillfully. Its builders were the Vanished People, the same master builders who began this gracious house of yours." (IGJ, 60) And to anticipate the argument that Silkhorn doesn't know where he is or Horn was, there is the testimony of the same Neighbor. After walking through the ruins of the city that is crumbling under the onslaught of the encroaching jungle, the Neighbor said: --------------- "How we deceived ourselves!" the man of the Vanished People who had been his guide said. "We thought we were building here for the ages. Another thousand years, and everything you see will be gone." (63) --------------- Even if Silkhorn had his head up his ass, I don't see how anyone could believe that the Neighbors didn't know who they were, where they came from, or what they themselves had built. And to suggest that the Neighbor just lied is not credible. There are other details that unimaginative assholes like me notice that indicate that the City on Green is not Nessus. The black sword that Horn was given came from a selection of swords inside a "bronze tablet" (23) that was located in a ruined building. There was a black sheath that came with it, and a sword belt with many thin straps (24) that "had never been intended for such a body as his (61). That is, not a human body. Soon after Horn and the Neighbor entered the sewer they came to "an altar of bronze and stone" (64). Behind it was an image too worn for Horn to make out what it looked like. The Neighbor told him, "This was our goddess of purity". That is, it was a Neighbor shrine for a Neighbor goddess. Horn prayed to it and was rewarded with the little light that he used in the sewer. There is no doubt about it; the ruined City on Green was built by the Neighbors, for the Neighbors and used by the Neighbors before they abandoned it. If this is another "asinine" reading by me of the simple textual facts, so be it. Gerry, you seem to have gotten all over you a lot of crap that really has more to do with me than you, as you have probably figured out by now. Sorry about that, but I'm not flinging it. <g> -Roy

I missed the name calling, but please don't leave, Roy. Who else would slap sense into us? I'm trying to open up to the possibility that "Green is Urth" (which is how he wrote it to Marc, not the other way around, which makes it seem as if it is not a joke, though he regretted the telling) It's a bit ugly. Maybe it fits. I won't say it doesn't unless I've really considered it. Of course, it's a HUGE leap, without much of anything to fill the plot gaps. But it is interesting. As Roy points out, the City on Green is not Nessus, and not built by people with bodies like ours. I don't see how the Whorl could have been gone long enough to the transformation from man to multi-limb neighbors, and all the other flaura and fauna changes, along with Moon and Blue swapping (do either blue or green have moons, I forget?) but then I don't really grok all the relativity time wonkorama rules. Perhaps all this has passed between the Whorls's Exile and Return. As for what all this does for the themes, well that might seem tastier the more we chew it, but it starts out with a very funky flavor. I think it's "not exactly right" to frame these books with any single, over-arching phrase-theme, such as, "You can't go home," or "the ramifications of a world without Jesus," though I might be guilty of hammering the "Resurrection and Death" label here. These are useful framing concepts that help with that Gestalt-o-Vision, but none is likely to encompass the vast amount of thematic material here.

Jordon Flato31 Dec 2010, 17:28

↳ in reply to Marc Aramini

That line about the leaf turning into a bug is a symbol, a day dream...not something that actually happened. How can that be used as evidence? On Dec 31, 2010 7:55 AM, "Marc Aramini" <marcaramini at yahoo.com> wrote: Let me get all your rebuttals in order, because I feel like we just argue in circles and circles. 1) The vegetation and life are too different. - I think vegetative evolution and hybridization is going on. This quote from shadow of the torturer, chapter 2: "Two thoughts (that were nearly dreams) obsessed me and made them infinitely precious. The first was that at some not-distant time, time itself would stop .... the colored days that had so long been drawn forth like a chain of conjuror?s scarves come to an end, the sullen sun wink out at last. The second was that there existed somewhere a miraculous light - which I sometimes conceived of as a candle, sometimes as a flambeau - that engendered life in whatever objects it fell upon, so that a leaf plucked from a bush grew slender legs and waving feelers, and a rough brown brush opened black eyes and scurried up a tree." (Shadow and Claw 18) As early as Chapter 2 of New Sun, the coming of the New Sun is animating vegetation. All life left on green is a result of that hybridization. 2) Time travel is not involved in Silk's astral travel - he shows up in the story in the past at the beginning of iGJ 3) The neighbors made the city on Green - I think the people of Urth are the neighbors, or will become them. 4) Rigoglio is responsible for them winding up on Urth. The text at least shows that Silk is thinking of Green at a time before it was corrupted and his son Sinew when they make the jump. This muddles the jump. 5) What is blue, and how do you see the light from space? paradoxes explain everything, baby. But seriously, this is what we need to work on. Saying the neighbors built green or that Silk says they are different places are not very useful as absolute refutation because he does not even understand who he is. In RttW I can quote Silk as saying "I am Horn.", but the end, where "Silk nodded" works against that assertion. I honestly believe Gene sat down and said, who, what, when, where, and how are going to be very hard to distinguish in this book, and a central mystery answers all of these questions. Even Horn's fate is answered by paying attention to the vegetation. n Fri, 12/31/10, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at yahoo.com> wrote:

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From: Marc Aramini <marcaramini at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: (urth) City on Green To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net> Date: Friday, December 31, 2010, 7:41 AM Roy, if Green is Urth, the Neighbors are what people become, I think.

That's all. You know, t... -----Inline Attachment Follows-----

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_______________________________________________ Urth Mailing List To post, write urth at urth....

David Stockhoff31 Dec 2010, 19:06

↳ in reply to Roy C. Lackey

Nessus was built by the Neighbors! Roy said so. Urth is Green! ;)

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On 12/31/2010 3:39 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote: There is no doubt about it; the ruined City on Green was built by the Neighbors, for the Neighbors and used by the Neighbors before they abandoned it. If this is another "asinine" reading by me of the simple textual facts, so be it.

Marc Aramini31 Dec 2010, 19:19

↳ in reply to Son of Witz

Witz, hybridization is instant speciation, which is why its such an important theme in the first chapter of OBW, almost no time at all has to pass. --- On Fri, 12/31/10, Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote: ?I don't see how the Whorl could have been gone long enough to the transformation from man to multi-limb neighbors, and all the other flaura and fauna changes,

Marc Aramini31 Dec 2010, 19:23

↳ in reply to Jordon Flato

You are right Jordan. That line about the miraculous light coming was just a daydream. How can that be used as evidence for the new sun? --- On Fri, 12/31/10, Jordon Flato <jordonflatourth at gmail.com> wrote: From: Jordon Flato <jordonflatourth at gmail.com> Subject: Re: (urth) City on Green

Jordon Flato31 Dec 2010, 19:58

↳ in reply to Marc Aramini

Well now thats just cheeky, marc! The way you wrote it made it sound as if you thought the new sun literally changed the leaf to a bug, which is not something we are ever even remotely shown. The new sun as tje harbingwr of new life for urth is certsinly given life in that metaphor On Dec 31, 2010 11:23 AM, "Marc Aramini" <marcaramini at yahoo.com> wrote: You are right Jordan. That line about the miraculous light coming was just a daydream. How can that be used as evidence for the new sun? --- On Fri, 12/31/10, Jordon Flato <jordonflatourth at gmail.com> wrote:

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From: Jordon Flato <jordonflatourth at gmail.com> Subject: Re: (urth) City on Green To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>

Date: Friday, December 31, 2010, 9:28 AM That line about the leaf turning into a bug is a symbol, a day dream...not something that actua...

Marc Aramini31 Dec 2010, 20:01

↳ in reply to Jordon Flato

I just find it odd that his two certainties include this strange sentience coming to vegetation in light of the Green Man and the life on Green. I think its more than a throwaway daydream. Also, Father Thyme in Empires of Foliage and Flower is a vegetable of some kind who just absorbs water when it rains, something his little girl can't do, she has to drink water tinged with blood. I just feel like there was some vegetative schema for the future of Urth from the very beginning, whether good or bad I don't know. --- On Fri, 12/31/10, Jordon Flato <jordonflatourth at gmail.com> wrote: From: Jordon Flato <jordonflatourth at gmail.com> Subject: Re: (urth) City on Green

Son of Witz31 Dec 2010, 23:04

↳ in reply to Marc Aramini

Sure, but the fauna on these planets isn't fresh from the lab.

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On Dec 31, 2010, at 11:19 AM, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at yahoo.com> wrote: Witz, hybridization is instant speciation, which is why its such an important theme in the first chapter of OBW, almost no time at all has to pass. --- On Fri, 12/31/10, Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote: I don't see how the Whorl could have been gone long enough to the transformation from man to multi-limb neighbors, and all the other flaura and fauna changes, _______________________________________________

Son of Witz31 Dec 2010, 23:12

↳ in reply to Marc Aramini

Re: Vegetative schema there from the beginning: It dawned on me today that there IS a a big component that points towards this, The Tale of the Town That Forgot Fauna.

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On Dec 31, 2010, at 12:01 PM, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at yahoo.com> wrote: I just find it odd that his two certainties include this strange sentience coming to vegetation in light of the Green Man and the life on Green. I think its more than a throwaway daydream. Also, Father Thyme in Empires of Foliage and Flower is a vegetable of some kind who just absorbs water when it rains, something his little girl can't do, she has to drink water tinged with blood. I just feel like there was some vegetative schema for the future of Urth from the very beginning, whether good or bad I don't know. --- On Fri, 12/31/10, Jordon Flato <jordonflatourth at gmail.com> wrote: From: Jordon Flato <jordonflatourth at gmail.com> Subject: Re: (urth) City on Green To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net> Date: Friday, December 31, 2010, 11:58 AM Well now thats just cheeky, marc! The way you wrote it made it sound as if you thought the new sun literally changed the leaf to a bug, which is not something we are ever even remotely shown. The new sun as tje harbingwr of new life for urth is certsinly given life in that metaphor

_______________________________________________

Marc Aramini31 Dec 2010, 23:30

↳ in reply to Son of Witz

Yes, it isn't from the lab now, and I'm not sure if it ever was, BUT I do think it is instant recombination (ie - where Neighbor Horn comes from, the munching of and recombination with human Horn by a big Tree, like the trees that eat trees on Green - my take on the pit is that it is the maw of a ginormous tree, the kind that were seen making up other islands on Blue). --- On Fri, 12/31/10, Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote: Sure, but the fauna on these planets isn't fresh from the lab. On

António Marques31 Dec 2010, 23:45

↳ in reply to Roy C. Lackey

Hi Roy, You're right in your frustration at the way some behave sometimes; all the same I don't think everything is worthless fancy. If I bother pointing out problems in some theories that appear here, it's solely in the hope that they'll be improved on, or interesting alternatives developed. Granted, it is not well received, but on the whole I think it kind of works. I don't think Green is Urth either, though obviously that's unfalsifiable: given enough leeway (and time is relative so we have as much as we want to) anything can turn into anything else (I think some contributors here haven't yet gotten that). I do think the relationship, if any, betweem the City of the Inhumi and Nessus is worth exploring. Your objections would be unsurmountable if we were discussing a short period of earthly history, but we're not. - When did the Neighbours leave the scene? Those buildings won't last another thousand years - that means they can't be that old, or that wouldn't be remarkable - what are the odds that the Whorl would reach Blue/Green almost at the same time, broadly speaking, that the Neighbours have vanished? - Again, what the hell is the purpose of the City of the Inhumi (pace Benewicz). Heck, we don't have a city on Blue, where the Neighbours came from, but we have an impressive one on Green? - What's the meaning/etymology of Nessus? Nexus is a superb association. What's the purpose of our being told repeatedly how vast the city is? A nice year 2 all.

Jeff Wilson01 Jan 2011, 00:25

↳ in reply to Marc Aramini

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On 12/31/2010 1:23 PM, Marc Aramini wrote: You are right Jordan. That line about the miraculous light coming was just a daydream. How can that be used as evidence for the new sun?

It's a method of presenting an idea to the reader that is meant to be taken less than completely literally, but should still be considered otherwise why bother to introduce it at all? It is a similar device to the "true" lies in various characters' dialogue: they suggest to the reader something that needs to taken into consideration, though since the lies tend to be less symbolic and less figurative since they are intended by the speaking characters to be believed as if literally true, of course, which limits the author. A wholly internal conceit on the other hand can be as fanciful as necessary.

Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >

Jeff Wilson01 Jan 2011, 00:29

↳ in reply to António Marques

2 quoted lines

On 12/31/2010 5:45 PM, Ant?nio Marques wrote: - What's the meaning/etymology of Nessus? Nexus is a superb association. What's the purpose of our being told repeatedly how vast the city is?

"Nexus" is highly ironic for a walled, largely lawless city in a kingdom with closed roads.

Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >

Son of Witz01 Jan 2011, 00:54

↳ in reply to Jeff Wilson

I think I just had Gestalt-O-Vision with the "Closed roads" What the hell is the purpose of the closed roads? The closed roads seem to represent how there is no growth, only stagnation. No new paths. Society's dead body with stalled arteries. works for me at least. ~witz

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On Dec 31, 2010, at 4:29 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote: On 12/31/2010 5:45 PM, Ant?nio Marques wrote:

- What's the meaning/etymology of Nessus? Nexus is a superb association. What's the purpose of our being told repeatedly how vast the city is?

"Nexus" is highly ironic for a walled, largely lawless city in a kingdom with closed roads. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com

Adam Thornton01 Jan 2011, 01:08

↳ in reply to Jeff Wilson

4 quoted lines · 1–2 deep

On Dec 31, 2010, at 6:29 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote: On 12/31/2010 5:45 PM, Ant?nio Marques wrote:

- What's the meaning/etymology of Nessus? Nexus is a superb association. What's the purpose of our being told repeatedly how vast the city is?

"Nexus" is highly ironic for a walled, largely lawless city in a kingdom with closed roads.

"Nessus" is the centaur whose blood killed Hercules. I always took it as kind of an ironic inversion of "Buenos Aires"; "foul blood" as opposed to "fair winds". Adam

Jeff Wilson01 Jan 2011, 01:38

↳ in reply to Son of Witz

5 quoted lines

On 12/31/2010 6:54 PM, Son of Witz wrote: I think I just had Gestalt-O-Vision with the "Closed roads" What the hell is the purpose of the closed roads? The closed roads seem to represent how there is no growth, only stagnation. No new paths. Society's dead body with stalled arteries. works for me at least.

The old Autarch says they closed the roads to paralyze the social order. I assume this means that not being free to travel easily, the bulk of the people are stuck with their lot. It doesn't exactly represent stagnation or death so much as the only stable solution that has been found; he lists the other alternatives that suck more.

Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >

Jeff Wilson01 Jan 2011, 01:41

↳ in reply to Adam Thornton

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On 12/31/2010 7:08 PM, Adam Thornton wrote: On Dec 31, 2010, at 6:29 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:

On 12/31/2010 5:45 PM, Ant?nio Marques wrote:

- What's the meaning/etymology of Nessus? Nexus is a superb association. What's the purpose of our being told repeatedly how vast the city is?

"Nexus" is highly ironic for a walled, largely lawless city in a kingdom with closed roads.

"Nessus" is the centaur whose blood killed Hercules. I always took it as kind of an ironic inversion of "Buenos Aires"; "foul blood" as opposed to "fair winds".

I'm down with all of that, it's just that nexus implies that separate, distant things are being brought together and attached, which is belied by the walls, gates, roadblocks, and so forth that keep people separated and apart.

Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >

Son of Witz01 Jan 2011, 04:04

↳ in reply to Jeff Wilson

11 quoted lines · 1–2 deep

On Dec 31, 2010, at 5:38 PM, Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com> wrote: On 12/31/2010 6:54 PM, Son of Witz wrote:

I think I just had Gestalt-O-Vision with the "Closed roads" What the hell is the purpose of the closed roads? The closed roads seem to represent how there is no growth, only stagnation. No new paths. Society's dead body with stalled arteries. works for me at least.

The old Autarch says they closed the roads to paralyze the social order. I assume this means that not being free to travel easily, the bulk of the people are stuck with their lot. It doesn't exactly represent stagnation or death so much as the only stable solution that has been found; he lists the other alternatives that suck more. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com

Of course, that is the ploughman's meaning. I think my explanation aims for sooth sayers meaning. All that you said is true. Sometimes I find it easier to see the symbols if you can map the themes out and retell the story with them, sometimes like a cheesy movie trailer. In that spirit: "In a world where the sun is dying and the Urth is cold, in a shut down kingdom where there is no hope and the roads are closed, one man comes to forge a new path to the future, as well as to the past." (is that cheesy enough? Did you read it in that trailer guy's voice? It works best that way. I heard he just died.) So that's all I'm saying. They represent, plotwise, exactly what you laid out. I just never saw the thematic purpose. I'm convinced most every plot element is there for such a reason. ~witz

aaron01 Jan 2011, 04:11

↳ in reply to Jeff Wilson

Closing the roads makes it easier to keep people out of certain areas-- that's the obvious reason for me. Otherwise, just to discourage travel I suppose.

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On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 8:38 PM, Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com> wrote: On 12/31/2010 6:54 PM, Son of Witz wrote:

I think I just had Gestalt-O-Vision with the "Closed roads" What the hell is the purpose of the closed roads? The closed roads seem to represent how there is no growth, only stagnation. No new paths. Society's dead body with stalled arteries. works for me at least.

The old Autarch says they closed the roads to paralyze the social order. I assume this means that not being free to travel easily, the bulk of the people are stuck with their lot. It doesn't exactly represent stagnation or death so much as the only stable solution that has been found; he lists the other alternatives that suck more. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL > _______________________________________________

David Stockhoff01 Jan 2011, 04:29

↳ in reply to António Marques

Thinking of the etymology of "Nessus," I recall that it is the name of a centaur slain by a poisoned arrow. When we visit Nessus, we see the river Gyoll many times, which must be very polluted by the time it reaches the dead zones. As it slashes across Nessus, it is very like a poisoned arrow. I assume this is the conventional view. When we visit the city of the Neighbors/Inhumi, we mostly encounter the big sewer. I don't like where this leads, but there it is. (It's like the flushing of the Vincula at Thrax, too, so maybe this is not a remarkable similarity.) As for the vastness: the city of Nessus is uncontrollable, like a living thing that is born and dies daily. It is a megacity, technically. Such cities are indeed nexuses.

14 quoted lines

On 12/31/2010 6:45 PM, Ant?nio Marques wrote: Hi Roy, You're right in your frustration at the way some behave sometimes; all the same I don't think everything is worthless fancy. If I bother pointing out problems in some theories that appear here, it's solely in the hope that they'll be improved on, or interesting alternatives developed. Granted, it is not well received, but on the whole I think it kind of works. I don't think Green is Urth either, though obviously that's unfalsifiable: given enough leeway (and time is relative so we have as much as we want to) anything can turn into anything else (I think some contributors here haven't yet gotten that). I do think the relationship, if any, betweem the City of the Inhumi and Nessus is worth exploring. Your objections would be unsurmountable if we were discussing a short period of earthly history, but we're not. - When did the Neighbours leave the scene? Those buildings won't last another thousand years - that means they can't be that old, or that wouldn't be remarkable - what are the odds that the Whorl would reach Blue/Green almost at the same time, broadly speaking, that the Neighbours have vanished? - Again, what the hell is the purpose of the City of the Inhumi (pace Benewicz). Heck, we don't have a city on Blue, where the Neighbours came from, but we have an impressive one on Green? - What's the meaning/etymology of Nessus? Nexus is a superb association. What's the purpose of our being told repeatedly how vast the city is? A nice year 2 all.

David Stockhoff01 Jan 2011, 04:33

↳ in reply to Jeff Wilson

Yes, definitely. But this only forces us to think of what else it may be the nexus of, if not a global network of large cities.

4 quoted lines · 1–2 deep

On 12/31/2010 7:29 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote: On 12/31/2010 5:45 PM, Ant?nio Marques wrote:

- What's the meaning/etymology of Nessus? Nexus is a superb association. What's the purpose of our being told repeatedly how vast the city is?

"Nexus" is highly ironic for a walled, largely lawless city in a kingdom with closed roads.

David Stockhoff01 Jan 2011, 04:36

↳ in reply to Adam Thornton

Oops, Nessus killed Hercules, not the other way. Well, we might wonder then who is Hercules.

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On 12/31/2010 8:08 PM, Adam Thornton wrote: On Dec 31, 2010, at 6:29 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:

On 12/31/2010 5:45 PM, Ant?nio Marques wrote:

- What's the meaning/etymology of Nessus? Nexus is a superb association. What's the purpose of our being told repeatedly how vast the city is?

"Nexus" is highly ironic for a walled, largely lawless city in a kingdom with closed roads.

"Nessus" is the centaur whose blood killed Hercules. I always took it as kind of an ironic inversion of "Buenos Aires"; "foul blood" as opposed to "fair winds". Adam

Adam Thornton01 Jan 2011, 05:49

↳ in reply to David Stockhoff

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On 12/31/2010 10:36 PM, David Stockhoff wrote: Oops, Nessus killed Hercules, not the other way. Well, we might wonder then who is Hercules.

Hercules also killed Nessus, if that helps. As I recall, Deionara, who was Mrs. Hercules? The main squeeze of Hercules? had Nessus help her across a river, and then he tried to rape her, and then Hercules killed him (with a poison arrow? Don't remember), and, dying, he said to her something like, "if Hercules wears a shirt soaked in my blood, he will never love another." So of course she does the Dillinger-hankie thing, and then Hercules puts it on, and OOPS AGONIZING DEATH. Nota bene: I didn't look any of this up, so I could be totally wrong. Adam

Jeff Wilson01 Jan 2011, 06:49

↳ in reply to Son of Witz

20 quoted lines · 1–3 deep

On 12/31/2010 10:04 PM, Son of Witz wrote: On Dec 31, 2010, at 5:38 PM, Jeff Wilson<jwilson at io.com> wrote:

On 12/31/2010 6:54 PM, Son of Witz wrote:

I think I just had Gestalt-O-Vision with the "Closed roads" What the hell is the purpose of the closed roads? The closed roads seem to represent how there is no growth, only stagnation. No new paths. Society's dead body with stalled arteries. works for me at least.

The old Autarch says they closed the roads to paralyze the social order. I assume this means that not being free to travel easily, the bulk of the people are stuck with their lot. It doesn't exactly represent stagnation or death so much as the only stable solution that has been found; he lists the other alternatives that suck more. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com

Of course, that is the ploughman's meaning. I think my explanation aims for sooth sayers meaning. All that you said is true. Sometimes I find it easier to see the symbols if you can map the themes out and retell the story with them, sometimes like a cheesy movie trailer. In that spirit: "In a world where the sun is dying and the Urth is cold, in a shut down kingdom where there is no hope and the roads are closed, one man comes to forge a new path to the future, as well as to the past." (is that cheesy enough? Did you read it in that trailer guy's voice? It works best that way. I heard he just died.)

Donald Leroy "Don" LaFontaine (August 26, 1940 — September 1, 2008)

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So that's all I'm saying. They represent, plotwise, exactly what you laid out. I just never saw the thematic purpose. I'm convinced most every plot element is there for such a reason.

Well, there's a copious buttload of obstacles for the protagonist to overcome, it makes for the dying (but not quite dead yet) earth thing like you said, and it provides for lots of plot meandering so that there is gradual motion in the direction of the greater arc while having plenty of time to layer up all of the acquaintances and curious happeninigs and other motifs used to build the larger themes of the Book, eh?

Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >

Jeff Wilson01 Jan 2011, 07:07

↳ in reply to Adam Thornton

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On 12/31/2010 11:49 PM, Adam Thornton wrote: On 12/31/2010 10:36 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:

Oops, Nessus killed Hercules, not the other way. Well, we might wonder then who is Hercules.

Hercules also killed Nessus, if that helps. As I recall, Deionara, who was Mrs. Hercules? The main squeeze of Hercules? had Nessus help her across a river, and then he tried to rape her, and then Hercules killed him (with a poison arrow? Don't remember), and, dying, he said to her something like, "if Hercules wears a shirt soaked in my blood, he will never love another." So of course she does the Dillinger-hankie thing, and then Hercules puts it on, and OOPS AGONIZING DEATH. Nota bene: I didn't look any of this up, so I could be totally wrong.

Technically it was everlasting agony from which the only escape was death - though since he was half-immortal, once the mortality was burnt away, he ascended.

Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >

Lee Berman01 Jan 2011, 07:13

↳ follows, by subject match Jeff Wilson

Adam got the Hercules-Nessus story right. I'll drone on that I think Severian's story parallels that of Hercules more than any other legendary hero. I think the fouled waters of Gyoll are associated with the poison somewhere in the text. I don't think it is a contradiction for Nessus to have closed roads and have gotten its name (at least auctorially) from an association with the word "nexus". If it has closed roads it means they once were open. If it has a closed spaceport it means there was once an open space port. I think the city had the name Nessus long before the roads were closed and perhaps before the space port was closed. "All roads lead to nexus/Nessus"? Why is Urth closed off...is someone trying to keep something in or keep something out? The end of CotA was meant to be the end of the series. I would think the ending would be important. Part of the ending has Severian flying around the Citadel and being unable to find the top of Valeria's tower. Where is it? What sort of beings can construct towers that have roots on Urth and tops lost in time/space?

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Wikipedia: Shirt Of Nessus: In Greek mythology, it is the shirt (chiton) daubed with the tainted blood of the centaur Nessus that Deianeira, Hercules' wife, na?vely gave Hercules, burning him, and driving him to throw himself onto a funeral pyre.

Metaphorically, it represents "a source of misfortune from which there is no escape; a fatal present; anything that wounds the susceptibilities"[2] or a "destructive or expiatory force or influence"[3]

in UotNS it is the pain from his destruction of Nessus that sends grief-stricken Severian lunging and hurtling to the distant past to assuage his misery in the primitive life of Apu Punchau.

Lee Berman01 Jan 2011, 07:19

↳ follows, by subject match Lee Berman

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Marc Aramini: I just feel like there was some vegetative schema for the future of Urth from the very beginning, whether good or bad I don't know.

Marc, James has suggested that Spring Wind may be a disguised legend of Typhon (also Alexander). Spring Wind was conceived via his mother screwing around with the juices of a certain plant. Borski has suggested Typhon may have originated on Blue. Probably not helpful to your theory but I thought I'd throw those ideas at you, just in case.

Jeff Wilson01 Jan 2011, 07:46

↳ in reply to Lee Berman

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On 1/1/2011 1:13 AM, Lee Berman wrote: If it has closed roads it means they once were open. If it has a closed spaceport it means there was once an open space port.

Since Nessus moves upriver over time, it cannot be said for certain that the roads and the port were part of the city when they were open in the same way they are in Severian's time.

Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >

Lee Berman01 Jan 2011, 12:26

↳ follows, by subject match Jeff Wilson

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Jeff Wilson: Since Nessus moves upriver over time, it cannot be said for certain that the roads and the port were part of the city when they were open in the same way they are in Severian's time.

I was aware of that movement but I think I can still say for certain Nessus was the center of things on Urth for all intents and purposes. Autarch Somebody closed the roads so it wasn't so long ago when that happened. Nessus seems to be the capital city of the capital planet of an interstellar empire in Typhon's time. Severian starts in Nessus and returns time and time again. If the story is a Labryrinth with twisting paths turning in upon themselves, Nessus is surely its center. Perhaps Wolfe had no thoughts of the word nexus when he chose the name of this city with multi-book importance. But I don't see the value in postulating that Nessus was not the center of civilization in Urth's visible past. We could say, "Maybe it was Yorkessus in Ascia. Or maybe Seoulessus in the Xanthic Lands", but what is the point of that? If you don't like the idea of the name Nessus being related the word nexus, why not just say that? [FWIW, poking around the text on this issue uncovered some possible support for James' idea that Typhon mirrors Alexander The Great. As Severian is being taken from the Citadel to Typhon's mountain retreat, the accompanying soldiers are described as, "maintained with the disciplined precision of hand-colored troops commanded by a child.."

Jeff Wilson01 Jan 2011, 12:54

↳ in reply to Lee Berman

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On 1/1/2011 6:26 AM, Lee Berman wrote:

Jeff Wilson: Since Nessus moves upriver over time, it cannot be said for certain that the roads and the port were part of the city when they were open in the same way they are in Severian's time.

I was aware of that movement but I think I can still say for certain Nessus was the center of things on Urth for all intents and purposes. Autarch Somebody closed the roads so it wasn't so long ago when that happened. Nessus seems to be the capital city of the capital planet of an interstellar empire in Typhon's time. Severian starts in Nessus and returns time and time again. If the story is a Labryrinth with twisting paths turning in upon themselves, Nessus is surely its center.

It's the beginning and the end; if it had a center, I'd say it would be the House Absolute, which is also where the capital is, judging by the extern ambassadors being received there. Nessus is the population center, but that's not the same thing. Nessus is probably within a length of its original position at the time of Ymar, given that Inire establishes the Botanic Gardens that time or later and it is still barely within the patrolled area of the city by Sev's time.

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Perhaps Wolfe had no thoughts of the word nexus when he chose the name of this city with multi-book importance. But I don't see the value in postulating that Nessus was not the center of civilization in Urth's visible past. We could say, "Maybe it was Yorkessus in Ascia. Or maybe Seoulessus in the Xanthic Lands", but what is the point of that? If you don't like the idea of the name Nessus being related the word nexus, why not just say that?

I said it was ironic, but irony suits me fine.

Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >

David Stockhoff01 Jan 2011, 13:53

↳ in reply to Lee Berman

Modeling Severian after Hercules certainly would have given Wolfe the ability to construct a seemingly loose, episodic narrative with a higher purpose. Such as we have here. Other than the Augean Stables, has anyone compared Hercules' chores/feats/tasks/miracles one for one with Severian's?

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On 1/1/2011 2:13 AM, Lee Berman wrote: Adam got the Hercules-Nessus story right. I'll drone on that I think Severian's story parallels that of Hercules more than any other legendary hero. I think the fouled waters of Gyoll are associated with the poison somewhere in the text. I don't think it is a contradiction for Nessus to have closed roads and have gotten its name (at least auctorially) from an association with the word "nexus". If it has closed roads it means they once were open. If it has a closed spaceport it means there was once an open space port. I think the city had the name Nessus long before the roads were closed and perhaps before the space port was closed. "All roads lead to nexus/Nessus"? Why is Urth closed off...is someone trying to keep something in or keep something out? The end of CotA was meant to be the end of the series. I would think the ending would be important. Part of the ending has Severian flying around the Citadel and being unable to find the top of Valeria's tower. Where is it? What sort of beings can construct towers that have roots on Urth and tops lost in time/space?

Wikipedia: Shirt Of Nessus: In Greek mythology, it is the shirt (chiton) daubed with the tainted blood of the centaur Nessus that Deianeira, Hercules' wife, na?vely gave Hercules, burning him, and driving him to throw himself onto a funeral pyre.

Metaphorically, it represents "a source of misfortune from which there is no escape; a fatal present; anything that wounds the susceptibilities"[2] or a "destructive or expiatory force or influence"[3]

in UotNS it is the pain from his destruction of Nessus that sends grief-stricken Severian lunging and hurtling to the distant past to assuage his misery in the primitive life of Apu Punchau. __________________________________

Roy C. Lackey02 Jan 2011, 04:43

↳ in reply to Marc Aramini

Marc Aramini wrote: [snip]

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3) The neighbors made the city on Green - I think the people of Urth are the neighbors, or will become them.< [snip] Saying the neighbors built green or that Silk says they are different places are not very useful as absolute refutation because he does not even understand who he is. In RttW I can quote Silk as saying "I am Horn.", but the end, where "Silk nodded" works against that assertion.<

-------------- As I said when I started this thread, it was a Neighbor, not Silkhorn, who claimed that his race built the City on Green. It was also a Neighbor in the Land of Fires who told Horn that his race (the Neighbors) originated on Blue. The Neighbors did not suffer from Silkhorn's identity confusion. Humans originated on Urth. If Green is Urth, then the Neighbors did not originate there. The Neighbors did not, could not have built Nessus. There is no evidence, no suggestion at all that the Neighbors ever existed in Urth's past, and Severian went all the way back many thousands of years into the past to the dawn of history in the time of Apu-Punchau, long before Nessus even existed. If Green is post-deluge Urth, i.e. Ushas, the Neighbors still did not originate there; they came from Blue. Further, ignoring that, if you want to say that the remnants of humanity Severian saw on Ushas somehow evolved or otherwise changed into the race of double-limbed Neighbors (never mind all the other creatures), it is very doubtful that the ruins of a drowned Nessus would still be standing in the time that likely would have taken. Ignoring that, there is the Green Man from Ushas's future who, apart from being green and living off of sunlight, looked like a man -- with two arms and two legs. If you want to argue that the Green Man represented a stage between humans and Neighbors, then it is even less likely that the ruins of Nessus would still be standing at the time Horn saw the City on Green. The Hierogrammates had examined the future of Urth and found it probable that the humans of Ushas would become the Hieros who would bring about the race of Hierogrammates. Apheta, a larval-stage Hierogrammate, looked like a human woman and said that her form was that of the race that had fashioned hers, the Hieros. -Roy

Lee Berman02 Jan 2011, 07:37

↳ follows, by subject match Roy C. Lackey

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Roy C. Lackey: Humans originated on Urth. If Green is Urth, then the Neighbors did not originate there. The Neighbors did not, could not have built Nessus. There is no evidence, no suggestion at all that the Neighbors ever existed in Urth's past, and Severian went all the way back many thousands of years into the past to the dawn of history in the time of Apu-Punchau, long before Nessus even existed.

I think Roy makes pretty good arguments for Green not being Urth (yet, still, considering the private Wolfe correspondence, I can easily see why Marc isn't ready to drop the idea like it is the lit stink bomb Roy implies). But I think Roy is wrong in the above paragraph, specifially the part about "Neighbors did not, could not have built Nessus." Citing Severian's time travels is not relevant. He only travels to two places in Urth's past, Apu Punchau's time when there was no advanced technology and the end of Typhon's reign when interstellar travel is dwindling to nil (the ships at the Citadel site are already "hulks"). We do know that in between these two times have been periods of great interstellar travel to and from Urth. Nessus was at least partially built (and perhaps named) in this time period. We are told there are numerous alien races and we know some representatives spend time on Urth. We know Blue and Green are in reachable space from Urth. It seems eminently possible that Neighbors and/or Inhumi have made it to Urth in real (as opposed to dream-) travel.

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From my perspective, it is not only possible but probable that Neighbors and/or Inhumi have made it to Urth in history previous to Severian's times there. I base this probablity on the Dr. Talos principle. Like the impressario, Gene Wolfe prefers not to have different actors play all the different roles in his dramas. Instead he likes to have a smaller stable of actors who don disguises to play the various roles.

Thus, I think he is loathe to create two completely unrelated species to put into an offshoot story from BotNS. If he wanted no relationship he would have created a completely, unconnected story. (so yes, I do think Neighbors and Inhumi are disguised versions of aliens found on Urth though it is actually vice-versa; [angels and fallen angels]) Like most here, I think Gene Wolfe did NOT have Neighbors and Inhumi specifically in mind when he wrote BotNS. However, I think one single word provides the strong suggestion that Wolfe meant some of the aliens who travel to Urth have the capacity to become entwined in identity with humans. Nephilim. Nephilim are giants (or "men of reknown) who result from the mating between humans and a superior race. We have numerous giants in the extended story, we have humans and we have superior alien races. But can humans and alien species mate? Here is the thing: In dream travel, we know that Inhumi go to Urth and all they want to do is have sex. But, (it might be argued), that's just a dream. It doesn't result in offspring (or does it?). But on Blue/Green, all Inhumi really want to do is suck blood out of humans. This IS related! When we humans mate with each other it involves a fluid exchange which results in the blending of the identity of two beings. That process is also true for Inhumi biting humans. Wolfe MEANS for us to get the connection. (James thinks there is identity blending not only between humans and inhumi but also between human and Neighbor. I think the idea has merit, and if it does, I think inhumi are the vector for the identity merging. James thinks Horn merges with a Neighbor at his death in the Pit. When Horn wakes up there the first thing he sees is an inhumu, Krait)

Lee Berman02 Jan 2011, 08:01

↳ follows, by subject match Lee Berman

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David Stockhoff-Other than the Augean Stables, has anyone compared Hercules' chores/feats/tasks/miracles one for one with Severian's?

I gave it a preliminary shot. I think I had comparisons for five or six of the twelve labors. Some were awfully metaphorical: Hercules captures the deer with golden antlers= Severian's relationship with Dorcas (name means "gazelle"). Hercules, like Severian, carries the weight of the world on his shoulders when he subs for Atlas. etc. I think "one for one" may be too much to ask...it would be like Typhon having 100 heads like his mythological namesake. Too direct and obvious a borrowing for Wolfe. Still, Nessus, a twin, disguised parentage, mysterious strengths and indominability are pretty good clues. I think there are others, not yet discovered. Someone recently mentioned The Town That Forgot Fauna. I think there is much there which reflects on the founding of Nessus. It is on a river. It has grand walls and towers. There are black beans mentioned. We never learn the "grand name" of this city but its nicknames "Urbis" and "Pestis" are highly evocative of the name "Nessus" to me. Unexplored, I think, is the name of the owner of the original piece of land, Fauna. This Roman goddess is significant to me in that she is the daughter of the god Faunus. As I have noted elsewhere, an epithet for Faunus is Innus, derived from the copulatory verb, "inire" and a name associated with monkeys. BotNS does have a male and female character who are both very old.

David Stockhoff02 Jan 2011, 14:40

↳ in reply to Lee Berman

I googled "Urbis" and "Pestis" to see what loose associations might come up. There were none of any great interest: pestis (plague) is the species name of the Black Death, and Urbis tends to bring up Rome, but you would expect that. Rome is the Eternal City, which Nessus resembles in its lifespan, and of course both cities are notorious for other reasons. Thinking of Nessus as a Nexus in the sense that postimperial Rome was a nexus might be productive. For those of you who like puzzles, however, I present the Stanford Digital Forma Urbis Romae Project, DIGITAL MAP OF THE SLABS OF THE FORMA URBIS ROMAE: http://formaurbis.stanford.edu/docs/FURslabmap.html

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On 1/2/2011 3:01 AM, Lee Berman wrote: Someone recently mentioned The Town That Forgot Fauna. I think there is much there which reflects on the founding of Nessus. It is on a river. It has grand walls and towers. There are black beans mentioned. We never learn the "grand name" of this city but its nicknames "Urbis" and "Pestis" are highly evocative of the name "Nessus" to me.