{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5863", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5863, "subject": "interview question", "messages": 14, "voices": 8, "first": "2010-12-30T01:00:52+00:00", "last": "2011-01-05T13:55:11+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-30T01:00:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) interview question", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jordon Flato: Considering the Epic of Gilgamesh gives the story of Utnapishtim and a\nglobal flood far older than the old testament, and yet very similar in\ndetail, I'd say it's something that goes beyond biblical veracity and just\ninto probable ancient history." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHeh. Yep and great example Jordon as Gilgamesh is almost certainly an example of\nwhat the Hebrews would call Nephilim. A giant demon-spawn serving as a hero to\nforeigners.\n \n(anthropologically, it makes perfect sense for the Hebrews to demonize foreigners\nmating with their women. The jews have a long history of maintaining their cultural\nintegrity by discouraging out-breeding) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflatourth at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-30T01:16:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) interview question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm intrigued by this notion you're playing out Lee. I'm not completely on\nboard, but I really like the idea of the loss of purity in the human strain,\nso to speak. Especially what you bring up about Dr. Talos' play.\n\nIn terms of the role of demons, and how they relate to the Hiero's and\nhierogrammates, for me the theme that resonates more with this (and I find\nthis particularly true with the Inhumu/Human chain), is the idea of a lower\nlife form being raised to a higher state by a higher form. So, as we become\n'higher' in taking the blood of Christ, so the inhumu become higher by\ntaking the blood of man. However, if Man isn't acting worthy of being 'god'\nto the inhumu, then the results are monstrous (see the city on Green, which\nI think shows what happens when the higher species which the Inhumu are\nimitating don't have their eyes trained vertically). There is an ancient\nesoteric precept which goes something like 'in order to climb the ladder,\nyou have to put someone on the step you just occupied'. I think there is a\nlot of this in these books, particularly with the inhumu/man story, but also\nwith the hierogrammates and man. So Man greats the heirogrammates (puts\nthem on the step man just occupied), and then they climb up and out, not to\nbe seen again. So, for the Hiero's to continue their 'progression' toward\nthe increate, they must also raise something to the step they occupy. It is\nperfectly symmetrical and beautiful that they would do this to the very\nspecies (either the VERY SAME species or their correlary in\ndifferent instantiation) that raised them up.\n\nAnd, this theme is repeated and explored very closely with the Disiri and\nAble in Wizard Knight.\n\nI haven't elucidated this as well as I'd like, but may try again later." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 5:00 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jordon Flato: Considering the Epic of Gilgamesh gives the story of\nUtnapishtim and a\nglobal flood far older than the old testament, and yet very similar in\ndetail, I'd say it's something that goes beyond biblical veracity and just\ninto probable ancient history." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heh. Yep and great example Jordon as Gilgamesh is almost certainly an\nexample of\nwhat the Hebrews would call Nephilim. A giant demon-spawn serving as a hero\nto\nforeigners.\n\n(anthropologically, it makes perfect sense for the Hebrews to demonize\nforeigners\nmating with their women. The jews have a long history of maintaining their\ncultural\nintegrity by discouraging out-breeding)\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflatourth at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-30T01:19:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) interview question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Further, as a random riff here, it could be that the Neighbors, who failed\nto raise the Inhumu up themselves, see something in SilkHorn which gives\nthem hope that humanity WILL raise the inhumu up, given time. We see\nSilkHorn trying this with varying success throughout the books. Maybe they\n'give' Blue to humans, because they realize that perhaps they can raise up\nthe Inhumu in a way which the neighbors obviously failed at spectacularly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 5:16 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:\nI'm intrigued by this notion you're playing out Lee. I'm not completely on\nboard, but I really like the idea of the loss of purity in the human strain,\nso to speak. Especially what you bring up about Dr. Talos' play.\n\nIn terms of the role of demons, and how they relate to the Hiero's and\nhierogrammates, for me the theme that resonates more with this (and I find\nthis particularly true with the Inhumu/Human chain), is the idea of a lower\nlife form being raised to a higher state by a higher form. So, as we become\n'higher' in taking the blood of Christ, so the inhumu become higher by\ntaking the blood of man. However, if Man isn't acting worthy of being 'god'\nto the inhumu, then the results are monstrous (see the city on Green, which\nI think shows what happens when the higher species which the Inhumu are\nimitating don't have their eyes trained vertically). There is an ancient\nesoteric precept which goes something like 'in order to climb the ladder,\nyou have to put someone on the step you just occupied'. I think there is a\nlot of this in these books, particularly with the inhumu/man story, but also\nwith the hierogrammates and man. So Man greats the heirogrammates (puts\nthem on the step man just occupied), and then they climb up and out, not to\nbe seen again. So, for the Hiero's to continue their 'progression' toward\nthe increate, they must also raise something to the step they occupy. It is\nperfectly symmetrical and beautiful that they would do this to the very\nspecies (either the VERY SAME species or their correlary in\ndifferent instantiation) that raised them up.\n\nAnd, this theme is repeated and explored very closely with the Disiri and\nAble in Wizard Knight.\n\nI haven't elucidated this as well as I'd like, but may try again later.\n\n\nOn Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 5:00 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jordon Flato: Considering the Epic of Gilgamesh gives the story of\nUtnapishtim and a\nglobal flood far older than the old testament, and yet very similar in\ndetail, I'd say it's something that goes beyond biblical veracity and\njust\ninto probable ancient history." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Heh. Yep and great example Jordon as Gilgamesh is almost certainly an\nexample of\nwhat the Hebrews would call Nephilim. A giant demon-spawn serving as a\nhero to\nforeigners.\n\n(anthropologically, it makes perfect sense for the Hebrews to demonize\nforeigners\nmating with their women. The jews have a long history of maintaining their\ncultural\nintegrity by discouraging out-breeding)\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1952141954-1293672810-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1981990672-@bda123.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "from": { "name": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2010-12-30T01:33:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) interview question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Man, sorry I missed lunch...great ideas\nSent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Jordon Flato \nSender: urth-bounces at lists.urth.netDate: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 17:19:27 \nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nReply-To: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) interview question" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflatourth at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-30T01:34:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) interview question", "in_reply_to": "<1952141954-1293672810-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1981990672-@bda123.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, dammit stu, when will we three finally meet in the flesh!!\n\nOn Dec 29, 2010 5:33 PM, wrote:\n\nMan, sorry I missed lunch...great ideas\nSent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed\n\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Jordon Flato \nSender: urth-bounces at list..." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-03T03:34:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) interview question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I think it is wrong to think of Aunt Jeannine as an unreliable narrator in \nthis instance. \"An unreliable narrator is a narrator, whether in literature, film, or theatre, \nwhose credibility has been seriously compromised.\" Jeannine does not fit this definition. \nAlthough she hides her identity, there is no credibility issue - in fact one \ncould say it makes her *more* credible as a judge of Veil's motivations" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHeh, that's pretty ironic. Aunt Jeannine misrepresents her name, gender and identity to Number \nFive. She also asserts that there is no evidence that abos could change shape and that they \nhave died off long ago. Yet somehow she is a reliable narrator? About her own motivations, perhaps\nbut, as we later see, she is completely wrong about her own theory, which is correct." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course, Veil's Hypothesis is not wholly false; we do have one incident of \nan abo replacing a human, after they had been travelling alone together for \na long period. And clearly the shapechanging aboriginal Annese have entered \nhuman society to some extent - but equally clearly they have not killed and \nreplaced the human colonists en masse. Indeed we may assume they are \noutcasts for the most part." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There has been no wholesale replacement of humans by the native \nAnnese; this is plain from such diverse indications as eye colour, tool use, \nand the stories of Marsch's interviewees." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSigh..this is so difficult.. Gerry I think you are continuing to treat a fictional world as though it\nwere the real world, where parsimony and Occam's Razor are valid principles. In fiction they are not.\nYou know, for years there were debates here over whether Dr. Marsch was actually replaced. I introduced \nthe Wolfe quote you cite in the middle of one argument and there hasn't been a debate since. But it shows \nthat some people are so intent on \"weighing evidence\" they forget the purpose of writing a story.\n \nWhy would an author (who tends to horror) introduce Veil' Hyphothesis then write this novel full of clues\ntwists and turns to reveal... nothing. Or one case of replacement. Or maybe just some minority replacement \nof the population. Where is the horror in that? \n \nAunt Jeannine and Dr. Aubrey Veil throw down the gauntlet early: either Veil's Hypothesis is 100% false or \n100% true. None of this namby-pamby partial stuff. I'm not sure how to explain it other than to say that a \nweak realization of Veil's Hypothesis would violate a rule of story-telling. If stories were as boringly\nambiguous as the real world, with partial resolutions and half-baked conclusions, we wouldn't write or \nlisten to fiction stories. Cinderella doesn't do the magic pumpkin, ball and slipper routine just to go on a \nfew dates with Prince Charming then decide he isn't Mr. Right and go home to live with her steps. That \nstory would simply suck (except as parody). Or be \"lame\" as Gene Wolfe put it.\n \nI don't understand your evidence of \"eye color\". Could you explain? We are told there is a planetary look\non St. Croix. Number Five has it. With regard to the tool use issue and Marsh's interviewees you are missing \nsomething important. We hear stories which purport that abos are just animals- so bad with tools they can't use \na shovel. But we have prima facie evidence they are capable of extremely fine motor skills- Handwriting. It \nmay be poor handwriting but it is legible. If you can write legible sentences, you have become a rather skilled\ntool-user, by animal standards. \n \nStill, some feel that the general disrepair of both St. Croix and Ste. Anne is due to the serviceable but \nsub-standard tool use of the current inhabitants.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<128603.97213.qm@web114716.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-01-03T04:46:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) interview question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Lee Berman \nThere has been no wholesale replacement of humans by the native \nAnnese; this is plain from such diverse indications as eye colour, tool use, \nand the stories of Marsch's interviewees." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sigh..this is so difficult.. Gerry I think you are continuing to treat a \nfictional world as though it\nwere the real world, where parsimony and Occam's Razor are valid principles." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There has to be one. We don't worry about whether all the characters in BotNS \nare Talking Beasts that Severian misleads us about, or Holmes's deductions about \nhis clients are false and the clients confirm them just to be polite, or Helen \nof Troy was a male transvestite.\n\nParsimony in fiction may not work the way it does in real life, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In fiction they are not.\nYou know, for years there were debates here over whether Dr. Marsch was \nactually replaced. I introduced\nthe Wolfe quote you cite in the middle of one argument and there hasn't been a \ndebate since. But it shows \n\nthat some people are so intent on \"weighing evidence\" they forget the purpose \nof writing a story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why would an author (who tends to horror) introduce Veil' Hyphothesis then \nwrite this novel full of clues\ntwists and turns to reveal... nothing. Or one case of replacement. Or maybe \njust some minority replacement \n\nof the population. Where is the horror in that?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The horror is in human beings are being deceived. You lose that horror if all \nthe deceived beings are also deceivers (though you might gain a different \nhorror--I don't remember 5HC well enough to argue about this)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Aunt Jeannine and Dr. Aubrey Veil throw down the gauntlet early: either Veil's \nHypothesis is 100% false or \n\n100% true. None of this namby-pamby partial stuff. I'm not sure how to explain \nit other than to say that a \n\nweak realization of Veil's Hypothesis would violate a rule of story-telling. If \nstories were as boringly\nambiguous as the real world, with partial resolutions and half-baked \nconclusions, we wouldn't write or \n\nlisten to fiction stories." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Spoilers follow:\n\nWe never know whether there's a ghost in \"The Turn of the Screw\" or whether \nTimothy Archer transmigrated or how \"Prot\" escaped from the asylum in K-Pax. \nNothing is resolved in \"The Metamorphosis\". Many posters on NABOKV-L treasure \nthe ambiguity of Pale Fire and prefer to doubt obvious clues that, for instance, \nthere's an afterlife in the novel; some even doubt there are ghosts in \"The Vane \nSisters\". We never find out what happens to the main character of The Fixer. \nWe don't know what it means that Milkman learned you can fly in Song of Solomon.\n\nWe can be certain of one thing, though: There are no rules of story-telling." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Cinderella doesn't do the magic pumpkin, ball and slipper routine just to go on \na \n\nfew dates with Prince Charming then decide he isn't Mr. Right and go home to \nlive with her steps. That \n\nstory would simply suck (except as parody). Or be \"lame\" as Gene Wolfe put it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nAnd yet he wrote a story where the victorious hero gets an astonishing weapon \nand throws it away without using it.\n\nIn the Amber books, Corwin pits worlds against each other to make his crowning \nof himself come true, and then puts the kingship on the back burner and \neventually leaves the decision to someone else. I'm sure I've read other good \nexamples of this, maybe closer to \"Cinderella\", but I'm not coming up with them.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<556789.98581.qm@web161810.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-01-03T15:06:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) interview question", "in_reply_to": "<128603.97213.qm@web114716.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Have to comment on one of Jerry's examples.\n\nSince you mentioned the Amber books, that putting aside the throne is a vital step in?Corwin's maturation. Even when stripped of memory, Corwin is still \"trapped in Amber\" - unable to mature, still immediately pulled into a demigod struggle with his eternally unchanging brothers, but SOMETHING eventually changes him. At the end of the first novel, even having his eyes purged out can't destroy that unchaging desire to thwart Eric, but Eric, his greatest enemy, leaves the jewel of Judgement to him at the time of his death.\n\nIn the fifth/sixth grade, I would be hard pressed to choose between Wolfe or Zelazny as my favorite, but that setting aside the throne is supposed to be, I think, the definitive proof that these demigods of Amber CAN change - it just isn't likely.\n\n--- On Sun, 1/2/11, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\n\nIn the Amber books, Corwin pits worlds against each other to make his crowning of himself come true, and then puts the kingship on the back burner and eventually leaves the decision to someone else. I'm sure I've read other good examples of this, maybe closer to \"Cinderella\", but I'm not coming up with them.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<847432.83266.qm@web114719.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-01-03T16:52:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) interview question", "in_reply_to": "<556789.98581.qm@web161810.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Marc Aramini \n\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Since you mentioned the Amber books, that putting aside the throne is a vital \nstep in Corwin's >maturation. Even when stripped of memory, Corwin is still \n\"trapped in Amber\" - unable to mature, >still immediately pulled into a demigod \nstruggle with his eternally unchanging brothers, but >SOMETHING eventually \nchanges him. At the end of the first novel, even having his eyes purged >out \ncan't destroy that unchaging desire to thwart Eric, but Eric, his greatest \nenemy, leaves the jewel >of Judgement to him at the time of his death." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the fifth/sixth grade, I would be hard pressed to choose between Wolfe or \nZelazny as my\nfavorite," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting. I wasn't ready for a lot of their work then. In fact, it was \nprobably in seventh or eight grade that I bounced off Lord of Light (though I \nenjoyed it some years later)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "but that setting aside the throne is supposed to be, I think, the definitive \nproof that these\ndemigods of Amber CAN change - it just isn't likely." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The other definitive moment is when Corwin creates the new pattern from his \nmemories of a \"shadow\", Earth, not Amber. One of my favorite moments in \nfiction. (Only I wish it had been Cleveland instead of Paris.)\n\nAnyway, I agree with you completely, and thanks for \"trapped in Amber\". But I \nalso think that this is an excellent example of a gun not going off. The other \nexample I was thinking of may have been the end of Malafrena--no revolution, \nnothing between Itale and Piera--though perhaps that's not quite as good.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sun, 1/2/11, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n\nIn the Amber books, Corwin pits worlds against each other to make his crowning \nof himself come true, and then puts the kingship on the back burner and \neventually leaves the decision to someone else. I'm sure I've read other good \nexamples of this, maybe closer to \"Cinderella\", but I'm not coming up with them.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-03T17:54:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) interview question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message ----- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I think it is wrong to think of Aunt Jeannine as an \nunreliable narrator in\nthis instance. \"An unreliable narrator is a narrator, whether in \nliterature, film, or theatre,\nwhose credibility has been seriously compromised.\" Jeannine does not fit \nthis definition.\nAlthough she hides her identity, there is no credibility issue - in fact \none\ncould say it makes her *more* credible as a judge of Veil's motivations" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heh, that's pretty ironic. Aunt Jeannine misrepresents her name, gender \nand identity to Number\nFive. She also asserts that there is no evidence that abos could change \nshape and that they\nhave died off long ago. Yet somehow she is a reliable narrator? About her \nown motivations, perhaps\nbut, as we later see, she is completely wrong about her own theory, which \nis correct." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She is - as befits a careful and modest scientist - stating the case for the \nidea that abo shapechanging is a myth. Just before that she carefully \nelaborates to the narrator on details of Veil's Hypothesis (\"I feel sure Dr. \nVeil meant...\")." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Of course, Veil's Hypothesis is not wholly false; we do have one incident \nof\nan abo replacing a human, after they had been travelling alone together \nfor\na long period. And clearly the shapechanging aboriginal Annese have \nentered\nhuman society to some extent - but equally clearly they have not killed \nand\nreplaced the human colonists en masse. Indeed we may assume they are\noutcasts for the most part." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There has been no wholesale replacement of humans by the native\nAnnese; this is plain from such diverse indications as eye colour, tool \nuse,\nand the stories of Marsch's interviewees." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sigh..this is so difficult.. Gerry I think you are continuing to treat a \nfictional world as though it\nwere the real world, where parsimony and Occam's Razor are valid \nprinciples. In fiction they are not.\nYou know, for years there were debates here over whether Dr. Marsch was \nactually replaced. I introduced\nthe Wolfe quote you cite in the middle of one argument and there hasn't \nbeen a debate since. But it shows\nthat some people are so intent on \"weighing evidence\" they forget the \npurpose of writing a story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am not depending on parsimony and/or Occam's Razor. I am pointing out \nsomething that is made plain as the nose on your face in countless places \nthroughout all three novellas. I am almost at a loss as to where to begin \ndemonstrating it; it's hard for me to guess which arguments might best sway \nsomeone who can hold such a grotesque misreading of the work as you put \nforward!\n\nLet's start with the simple and obvious facts of the case - two separate \nplanets full of humans who act like humans and think they are humans and \nmaintain a human, albeit in some parts vicious, culture, and welcome human \nvisitors from Earth. On Sainte Anne they remember details of their journey \nfrom Earth, and tell tales of the abos and of previous human colonists. \nThere are many myths and stories aboout the abos. There is *nothing* \nanywhere to suggest that they leaped on people, killed (or devoured) them \nand replaced them. The only incident of replacement we know of involved a \nman who travelled alone with a highly motivated abo for a long period - and \neven then we do not know any details of the original Marsch's death, which \nmay well have been from natural causes (an infected wound) or at least \naccidental. If such replacement incidents had been commonplace, the \ncolonists - who even you accept *think* they are human and live as the \noriginal humans would have - would have told tales about them and feared the \nabos, which patently they did not. Did nobody notice even when a second \n*planet* had to be infiltrated? Has Earth been taken over by the abos too?\n\nThere is simply no room for the scenario you propose. The above is more \nthan enough in itself to rule it out, but in any case Wolfe has left \nnumerous specific clues as to the correct reading of 5HoC which also \ncompletely eliminate this idea. I will come to them (or some of them) as I \ngo on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why would an author (who tends to horror) introduce Veil' Hyphothesis then \nwrite this novel full of clues\ntwists and turns to reveal... nothing. Or one case of replacement. Or \nmaybe just some minority replacement\nof the population. Where is the horror in that?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe introduces many more myths and stories other than Veil's Hypothesis. \nLike Veil's Hypothesis (and Veil's Criticism of Veil's Hypothesis) they all \nhave elements of truth, but it is always distorted. 5HoC is not a cheap \nhorror TV special from the Fifties. Wolfe utilises pulp elements, but he is \nnot writing pulp. The novel is not centred on some big reveal about the pod \npeople of Sainte Anne. If that is your criterion for a quality read, you \nmight be better off with other authors. If you want horror, consider the \nquestion - posed in effect by Aunt Jeannine - of whether it is more horrific \nthat Sainte Croix is a planet inhabited by alien monsters, or a planet \ninhabited by humans." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Aunt Jeannine and Dr. Aubrey Veil throw down the gauntlet early: either \nVeil's Hypothesis is 100% false or\n100% true. None of this namby-pamby partial stuff. I'm not sure how to \nexplain it other than to say that a\nweak realization of Veil's Hypothesis would violate a rule of \nstory-telling. If stories were as boringly\nambiguous as the real world, with partial resolutions and half-baked \nconclusions, we wouldn't write or\nlisten to fiction stories. Cinderella doesn't do the magic pumpkin, ball \nand slipper routine just to go on a\nfew dates with Prince Charming then decide he isn't Mr. Right and go home \nto live with her steps. That\nstory would simply suck (except as parody). Or be \"lame\" as Gene Wolfe put \nit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually if it were 100% false or 100% true it would violate the rules of \n5HoC, in which just about *nothing* is completely false or completely true. \nVeil's Hypothesis (and its contradiction, also by Veil) fit perfectly into \nthe pattern Wolfe is creating in 5HoC, which reflects something that has \noften occured in the real world. A central theme - perhaps the central \ntheme of the book as a whole, though not the title novella - of 5HoC, which \nseems to have passed you by, is colonisation and its consequences. The \nunfortunate abos are doomed to ape the culture of their conquerors, and are \ndespised as outcasts and vagabonds." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't understand your evidence of \"eye color\". Could you explain?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How can anyone miss this clear signifier which tells us (better than tool \nuse, although it seems the French did not know of it) who is an abo and who \nis not? Abos have green eyes. Humans rarely do, at least not in the same \nshade. Here is (the superseded) Dr. Marsch, the only abo we meet outside \nthe second novella, except perhaps the cat, whose eye colour may be \ninferred. The narrator of the first novella says: \"His eyes, I noticed, \nwere a bright green, without the brown tones most green eyes have.\" The \noriginal Marsch noted VRT's green eyes not once but twice; on the second \noccasion, he pronounced them \"a startling green\". The Annese apparently do \nnot or cannot change their eye colour a easily as they can adapt other \naspects of their physiognomy. Now you might think these green eyes are just \nan extra clue relating to the identity of Marsch, but there is more. \nTowards the end of the second novella, we read:\n\n[Sandwalker asks Cedar Branches Waving] \"Mother, what colour are my eyes \nnow?\"\n\"Green,\" Cedar Branches Waving answered. \"They look gray in this light, but \nthey are green. That is the colour of eyes.\"\n[...] And Seven Girls Waiting added, \"Pink Butterflies' eyes are green too.\"\n\nGreen is the colour of abo eyes. Just like two is the number of Typhon's \nheads.\n\n[Incidentally we aren't told what the colour of the Shadow Children's eyes \nare. Perhaps Wolfe felt it was so obvious that they are human that he \ndidn't need to rub it in.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We are told there is a planetary look on St. Croix. Number Five has it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Marsch (the abo) doesn't! Nor, incidentally, do \"the gypsies and the \ncriminal tribes\". No doubt these groups of outcasts include many abos among \ntheir number." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "With regard to the tool use issue and Marsh's interviewees you are missing\nsomething important. We hear stories which purport that abos are just \nanimals- so bad with tools they can't use\na shovel. But we have prima facie evidence they are capable of extremely \nfine motor skills- Handwriting. It\nmay be poor handwriting but it is legible. If you can write legible \nsentences, you have become a rather skilled\ntool-user, by animal standards." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "By animal standards, yes (although we have learned in recent decades that \nanimals are cleverer in this regard than we used to think). By human \nstandards, their tool use is indeed rather poor, as we learn from several \nsources. Perhaps the French had an exaggerated idea of the difference; \nafter all, they apparently failed to catch all the abos, and they never \nnoticed the eye colour clue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Still, some feel that the general disrepair of both St. Croix and Ste. \nAnne is due to the serviceable but\nsub-standard tool use of the current inhabitants." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are more than adequate rationales for any disrepair based on the human \ncultures and histories of the twin planets. Besides, as someone already \npointed out, we know that VRT's handwriting is exceptionally bad BY THE \nSTANDARDS of these societies.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-04T03:23:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) interview question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: It's not at all inexplicable. He thinks of Dollo's Law in the context of \nhis handwriting, specifically his thumb, which he cannot use; he must hold \nthe pen between his fingers with his thumb unused. He is in the same \nsituation a human would be if humans evolved to no longer need thumbs, and \nthe thumb, or the neural networks controlling it, withered away." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nGerry I'm in need of further explanation to understand your theory. You are implying\nan abo once had a thumb but evolved to not need one, then rediscovered the need while\nimitating Dr. Marsch? Why did abos once have a thumb then lose the need for it?\n \nAnd, of course, the obvious question: why does an Abo know about an obscure evolutionary \nprinciple postulated by some Belgian guy on earth in 1890 and connect it to his handwriting? \nSound more like something an anthropologist would know about. If a minute portion of the \nbrain's wiring can be imitated surely a thumb can be. Seem to be serious doubt over whether \nDr. Marsch really has been replaced. There are a lot of cats about. Perhaps one bit his hand. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D22B1FB.3060201@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-04T05:36:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) interview question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/3/2011 9:23 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: It's not at all inexplicable. He thinks of Dollo's Law in the context of\nhis handwriting, specifically his thumb, which he cannot use; he must hold\nthe pen between his fingers with his thumb unused. He is in the same\nsituation a human would be if humans evolved to no longer need thumbs, and\nthe thumb, or the neural networks controlling it, withered away." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry I'm in need of further explanation to understand your theory. You are implying\nan abo once had a thumb but evolved to not need one, then rediscovered the need while\nimitating Dr. Marsch? Why did abos once have a thumb then lose the need for it?\n\nAnd, of course, the obvious question: why does an Abo know about an obscure evolutionary\nprinciple postulated by some Belgian guy on earth in 1890 and connect it to his handwriting?\nSound more like something an anthropologist would know about. If a minute portion of the\nbrain's wiring can be imitated surely a thumb can be. Seem to be serious doubt over whether\nDr. Marsch really has been replaced. There are a lot of cats about. Perhaps one bit his hand. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm still a little hazy on the Dollo's Law thing. Why is it relevant wrt \nto abo's shape-shifting within a single generation? If it *is* \nrelevant, why can't the new adaptation work just as well as the old, \nlike cetacean fatty dorsal fins vs the piscine skeletal ones?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8D5CCA404A4D420685535E257831FC92@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-04T16:14:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) interview question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: It's not at all inexplicable. He thinks of Dollo's Law in \nthe context of\nhis handwriting, specifically his thumb, which he cannot use; he must hold\nthe pen between his fingers with his thumb unused. He is in the same\nsituation a human would be if humans evolved to no longer need thumbs, and\nthe thumb, or the neural networks controlling it, withered away." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry I'm in need of further explanation to understand your theory. You \nare implying\nan abo once had a thumb but evolved to not need one, then rediscovered the \nneed while\nimitating Dr. Marsch? Why did abos once have a thumb then lose the need \nfor it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not implying that at all, and neither is VRT. He does not say he is an \nexample of Dollo's Law, but he mentions it because an aspect of it is \nreminiscent of his case.\n\nLet's look at a typical example of Dollo's Law. The long-ago ancestors of \nsnakes had legs, and snakes have vestigial leg bones that serve no \nbiological purpose that we know of. Imagine that a population of snakes \nmoves into an environment in which their current methods of locomotion do \nnot work well. Over time, they may evolve limbs. Dollo's Law predicts that \neven if they do, these new limbs will develop not from the vestigial leg \nbones, but from some other organ - modified scales, pehaps.\n\nThe human bodies of the abos have not of course been crafted by evolution, \nbut by mimicry; thus, Dollo's law has no direct application. We may \nplausibly suppose that the human ability to use the opposable thumb has not \nbeen well copied even though the thumb has - it is a reasonable explanation \nfor the abos' poor abilities with tools, and we may even extrapolate to a \ngeneral neural deficiency in this regard, not just thumbs. [The reason for \nit could be that imitation of form is easier than imitation of function, or \nit might be a consequence of copying the Shadow Children, who also abandoned \ntheir tools. Maybe with more tool-using humans around nowadays, the abos \nwill get better over time. But I digress. These detailed speculations are \nnot germane to the issue of VRT's mention of Dollo's Law.]\n\nSo why does he mention Dollo's Law? He is making an analogy between \nevolution and his learning to write. Because the condition of his thumb \n(or, as I suggested, the neural networks giving fine muscle control over its \nuse) is analogous to the vestigial leg-bones of the snakes. They will not \nlearn to walk by developing these vestigial traits, but by developing some \nother organ, e.g. the scales. VRT will not learn to write by developing the \nuse of his thumb, but by developing a new way of holding the pen with his \nfingers.\n\nAs an anthropologist, or the imitation of one, evolutionary analogies come \nnaturally to him. That is all there is to it.\n\nNote, incidentally, that whatever one's interpretation of Dollo's Law, it is \nclearly linked to his writing. It follows directly from a discussion of it, \nand then there is a section break before he discusses the location of his \ncell and is then reminded of the mysterious brass implement." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And, of course, the obvious question: why does an Abo know about an \nobscure evolutionary\nprinciple postulated by some Belgian guy on earth in 1890 and connect it \nto his handwriting?\nSound more like something an anthropologist would know about. If a minute \nportion of the\nbrain's wiring can be imitated surely a thumb can be. Seem to be serious \ndoubt over whether\nDr. Marsch really has been replaced. There are a lot of cats about. \nPerhaps one bit his hand." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If we are going to have a novel involving a shapechanging alien who copies a \nhuman, we are going to have to swallow a small camel or two (which does not \nmean we have licence to swallow herds of them wholesale). By some means, \nunlikely as it may seem, VRT has come to not only somewhat resemble Marsch \nin outward appearance, but also pose with some success as a professional \nanthropologist. Perhaps he has gleaned the knowledge from any texts Marsch \nbrought with him, and from public libraries. Perhaps there is also some \npsychic transmission of knowledge from the original to the copy; they were \nin contact for a long period. It is not necessary to be an anthropologist \nto know of Dollo's Law - Gene Wolfe knows of it, for one.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D24783F.7030707@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-05T13:55:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) interview question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (03-01-2011 03:34):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Still, some feel that the general disrepair of both St. Croix and Ste.\nAnne is due to the serviceable but sub-standard tool use of the current\ninhabitants." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ha. I'm beginning to think the abos may have travelled back to Earth..." } ] } ] }