{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5864", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5864, "subject": "On Jesus in Briah and other dead horses", "messages": 5, "voices": 4, "first": "2010-12-30T01:09:16+00:00", "last": "2010-12-30T06:55:29+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflatourth at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-30T01:09:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Jesus in Briah and other dead horses", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So, not to pick a scab, but Witz and I were chowing down burgers today, and\ntalking about our favorite subject, BotNS. We both are more amenable to the\nidea of Severan being a 'Christ like' figure or 'instantation of the Logos'\nthan many on this board, to be sure, so we're apt to look at the books\nthrough that lens.\n\nWith that in mind, for those who feel that these books indicate a world that\nnever knew Jesus, how do we get the myth of Saint Catherine that is so\nimportant to the Order of the Seekers of Truth and Penitence? Sure, the\nname may have simply been a translation choice by the fictional Gene Wolfe,\nbut the ritual of elevation clearly lays out the actual story of Saint\nCatherine, at least in some guise. How do you have a Saint Catherine if\nthere is no Christianity? What mental gymnastics do we need to put\nourselves through to posit a world where such an event could be orally\ntransmitted (or otherwise) down through the ages to end up as the rites of\nthe Guild of Torturers without that event having some basis in far far far\ndistant truth?\n\nCertainly our world today is considered 'fallen' by some, and many\nChristians. Yet our world decidedly DID know Jesus. So why is it\nimpossible to think that the influence of Jesus on Urth would be so far gone\nand diluted as to be only extant in the most second hand of myth and\nhearsay? It seems possible to me, and in fact partially supported\ntextually. Of course, it could be an earlier instantiation of Briah, in\nwhich the life of Christ and Earth was slightly different, leading to the\nUrth we see in New Sun, but it can't have been so different that Jesus\ndidn't spawn a movement which engendered saints the likes of Saint\nCatherine, said saint's stories surviving the aeon's to end up as the\nelevation rights of the guild of torturers.\n\nPerhaps this has already been answered in the pages of this list. Anyone\ncare to take a crack at that?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D1BE910.8020408@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-30T02:06:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Jesus in Briah and other dead horses", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I'm not inclined to squint at the stories to see if they are \ntheologically correct, but I did take a stab at this here:\nhttp://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2010-December/019620.html\n\nIn short, I would say, in the construct I've offered above, that St \nCatherine is a myth. Naming people after saints is equivalent to naming \nyour child Thor or Freya. You could no more go back in Time and meet \nJesus than you could go back in Time and meet Cinderella. The same with \nJesus.\nu+16b9" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/29/2010 7:09 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:\nSo, not to pick a scab, but Witz and I were chowing down burgers \ntoday, and talking about our favorite subject, BotNS. We both are \nmore amenable to the idea of Severan being a 'Christ like' figure or \n'instantation of the Logos' than many on this board, to be sure, so \nwe're apt to look at the books through that lens.\n\nWith that in mind, for those who feel that these books indicate a \nworld that never knew Jesus, how do we get the myth of Saint Catherine \nthat is so important to the Order of the Seekers of Truth \nand Penitence? Sure, the name may have simply been a translation \nchoice by the fictional Gene Wolfe, but the ritual of elevation \nclearly lays out the actual story of Saint Catherine, at least in some \nguise. How do you have a Saint Catherine if there is no Christianity? \n What mental gymnastics do we need to put ourselves through to posit a \nworld where such an event could be orally transmitted (or otherwise) \ndown through the ages to end up as the rites of the Guild of Torturers \nwithout that event having some basis in far far far distant truth?\n\nCertainly our world today is considered 'fallen' by some, and many \nChristians. Yet our world decidedly DID know Jesus. So why is it \nimpossible to think that the influence of Jesus on Urth would be so \nfar gone and diluted as to be only extant in the most second hand of \nmyth and hearsay? It seems possible to me, and in fact partially \nsupported textually. Of course, it could be an \nearlier instantiation of Briah, in which the life of Christ and Earth \nwas slightly different, leading to the Urth we see in New Sun, but it \ncan't have been so different that Jesus didn't spawn a movement which \nengendered saints the likes of Saint Catherine, said saint's stories \nsurviving the aeon's to end up as the elevation rights of the guild of \ntorturers.\n\nPerhaps this has already been answered in the pages of this list. \n Anyone care to take a crack at that?\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D1BF415.5000808@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-30T02:53:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Jesus in Briah and other dead horses", "in_reply_to": "<4D1BE910.8020408@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (30-12-2010 02:06):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Well, I'm not inclined to squint at the stories to see if they are\ntheologically correct, but I did take a stab at this here:\nhttp://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2010-December/019620.html\n(...)\nFor example,\nGreen noticed that Lara's universe doesn't have ice cubes. Green\nexplains that this is because the universes are like strings on a guitar\ntuned to the same note. Pluck one and those next to it vibrate. So the\nparallel universes keep each other in line. Men in Lara's universe where\nblack tuxedos to their wedding because they die after sex. Men in\nGreen's universe do the same only because the men in Lara's universe do.\n\nSo in Severian's cycle, there was a Christian Church because there was\nin _our_ universe. The Jesus mentioned in Silk's Holy Book is a figure\nof myth. Neither Severian nor the Rajan could any more go back in time\nand meet him than you or I could go back in Time and meet Cinderella or\nJason or Thor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Unplausible. Again, it's one thing for unconsequential stuff to ripple \nacross universes. Quite another for structured ideas to be imported \nwholesale. Grooms may dress in black all they want without fear. People \ndon't build churches based on nothing. Myths have a source in real life, \neven if it's only previous myth (something must have established the first).\n\nThe Severian's-cycle-echoes-ours can mean that Severian's cycle's Jesus \nwasn't God the Son, or that Severian's cycle's christians failed. The latter \nseems to me the best candidate given the whole \nUrth-is-what-will-become-of-Earth-if-we-don't-take-heed theme. Severian's \nflood becomes God's second chance for Urth's Humanity after Humanity failed." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D1C059A.5020900@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-12-30T04:07:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Jesus in Briah and other dead horses", "in_reply_to": "<4D1BF415.5000808@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "J Wynn-\nSo in Severian's cycle, there was a Christian Church because there was\nin _our_ universe. The Jesus mentioned in Silk's Holy Book is a figure\nof myth. Neither Severian nor the Rajan could any more go back in time\nand meet him than you or I could go back in Time and meet Cinderella or\nJason or Thor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio-\nUnplausible. Again, it's one thing for unconsequential stuff to ripple \nacross universes. Quite another for structured ideas to be imported \nwholesale. Grooms may dress in black all they want without fear. \nPeople don't build churches based on nothing. Myths have a source in \nreal life, even if it's only previous myth (something must have \nestablished the first)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's not much discussion of religion in Green's world, but assuming \nhis is ours there is a Christian Church. If there were no equivalent in \nLara's world, their world would be vastly different or huge \nrationalizations would be necessary in Lara's world to keep the two in \nalignment. But you don't imagine there was ever a Zeus do you? Who had \nhis sinews cut and battled Typhon? A Thor who went to the underworld to \nbring back Balder? In There Are Doors people spoke the same languages. \nBased on Wolfe's example of imitation-leads-to-genuity (Long Sun) any \nreligion in Lara's world would tend to mimic the _true_ religion and \nthus, by little changes along the way, the world's align. They would \nhave rationale for the changes, but the changes would actually occur for \nunrelated reasons (I can give several examples of this in _New Sun_ and \nother stories. But the most obvious example would be CS Lewis' claims \nabout why ancient religions bore similarities to Christianity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Severian's-cycle-echoes-ours can mean that Severian's cycle's \nJesus wasn't God the Son, or that Severian's cycle's christians failed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It could. But it is totally unnecessary for the to have been a Jesus at \nall. Anymore than it is necessary for there to have actually been a \nHercules or Dionysus in order for people to keep their feasts.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-12-30T06:55:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Jesus in Briah and other dead horses", "in_reply_to": "<4D1BE910.8020408@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 29, 2010, at 6:06 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nWell, I'm not inclined to squint at the stories to see if they are theologically correct, but I did take a stab at this here:\nhttp://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2010-December/019620.html\n\nIn short, I would say, in the construct I've offered above, that St Catherine is a myth. Naming people after saints is equivalent to naming your child Thor or Freya. You could no more go back in Time and meet Jesus than you could go back in Time and meet Cinderella. The same with Jesus.\nu+16b9 " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We're asking, \"How does the essence of the myth come through?\" It is NOT just the name, it is the same story.\n\nIf there is a metaphysical TRUTH in a myth, perhaps this truth is an archetypal base for the instantiated story. At a one level, we have a deluge and the legends it inspired. On another, we have the idea of a healing aspect of God that enters physical time and flesh that instantiates In different avatars. \n\nSo, as you, Wynn, lay out, there might be all these clear echoes of christ in a christ-less creation because he existed in another creation. That's fair enough to suggest. What I, and I think Jordon feel is that this above mentioned healing aspect of God a force is TRUER than the myths it inspired. Thus any creation or emmanation of God's would have the potential to manifest a saviour that carried similar messages." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/29/2010 7:09 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So, not to pick a scab, but Witz and I were chowing down burgers today, and talking about our favorite subject, BotNS. We both are more amenable to the idea of Severan being a 'Christ like' figure or 'instantation of the Logos' than many on this board, to be sure, so we're apt to look at the books through that lens.\n\nWith that in mind, for those who feel that these books indicate a world that never knew Jesus, how do we get the myth of Saint Catherine that is so important to the Order of the Seekers of Truth and Penitence? Sure, the name may have simply been a translation choice by the fictional Gene Wolfe, but the ritual of elevation clearly lays out the actual story of Saint Catherine, at least in some guise. How do you have a Saint Catherine if there is no Christianity? What mental gymnastics do we need to put ourselves through to posit a world where such an event could be orally transmitted (or otherwise) down through the ages to end up as the rites of the Guild of Torturers without that event having some basis in far far far distant truth?\n\nCertainly our world today is considered 'fallen' by some, and many Christians. Yet our world decidedly DID know Jesus. So why is it impossible to think that the influence of Jesus on Urth would be so far gone and diluted as to be only extant in the most second hand of myth and hearsay? It seems possible to me, and in fact partially supported textually. Of course, it could be an earlier instantiation of Briah, in which the life of Christ and Earth was slightly different, leading to the Urth we see in New Sun, but it can't have been so different that Jesus didn't spawn a movement which engendered saints the likes of Saint Catherine, said saint's stories surviving the aeon's to end up as the elevation rights of the guild of torturers.\n\nPerhaps this has already been answered in the pages of this list. Anyone care to take a crack at that?\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }