{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5866", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5866, "subject": "Quotations", "messages": 9, "voices": 6, "first": "2011-01-01T14:06:55+00:00", "last": "2011-01-01T22:38:26+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<000601cba9bd$26d9eb80$748dc280$@yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Wisbey", "address": "mattwisbey at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-01-01T14:06:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Quotations", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi all\n\n \n\nI've just joined the list and hope to be an active participant in\ndiscussions. Please forgive me if the following question has already been\naddressed, I haven't had time to work my way through the archives .\n\n \n\nWhen Severian meets Ultan in the library, the Master Librarian quotes the\nfollowing lines to him:\n\n \n\n'Of the trail of ink there is no end.'\n\n'A man will give his life to the turning over of a collection of books.'\n\n \n\nThanks in advance for your responses.\n\n \n\nMatt" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-01T15:42:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Quotations", "in_reply_to": "<000601cba9bd$26d9eb80$748dc280$@yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Welcome!\n\nWhat's the question? I'm guessing you are asking where the apparent quotations come from.\n\nI did a google search out of curiosity but found nothing useful. Perhaps Wolfe got them somewhere obscure, or perhaps he invented them! Maybe somebody else has a clue.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n ----- Original Message ----- \n From: Matthew Wisbey \n To: urth at urth.net \n Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 2:06 PM\n Subject: (urth) Quotations\n\n\n Hi all\n\n \n\n I've just joined the list and hope to be an active participant in discussions. Please forgive me if the following question has already been addressed, I haven't had time to work my way through the archives .\n\n \n\n When Severian meets Ultan in the library, the Master Librarian quotes the following lines to him:\n\n \n\n 'Of the trail of ink there is no end.'\n\n 'A man will give his life to the turning over of a collection of books.'\n\n \n\n Thanks in advance for your responses.\n\n \n\n Matt\n\n\n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D1F4D13.1010909@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-01-01T15:49:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Quotations", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Same here. I would guess they are more \"in the style of\" an author than \ndirect quotes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/1/2011 10:42 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nWelcome!\nWhat's the question? I'm guessing you are asking where the apparent \nquotations come from.\nI did a google search out of curiosity but found nothing useful. \nPerhaps Wolfe got them somewhere obscure, or perhaps he invented \nthem! Maybe somebody else has a clue.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D1F5889.3050703@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-01T16:38:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Quotations", "in_reply_to": "<4D1F4D13.1010909@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 01/01/2011 09:49 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nSame here. I would guess they are more \"in the style of\" an author \nthan direct quotes.\n\nOn 1/1/2011 10:42 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Welcome!\nWhat's the question? I'm guessing you are asking where the apparent \nquotations come from.\nI did a google search out of curiosity but found nothing useful. \nPerhaps Wolfe got them somewhere obscure, or perhaps he invented \nthem! Maybe somebody else has a clue.\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, given the source, I would expect them to be found in Borges. And \ngiven that Borges did not originally write in English, it seems \nplausible that we're seeing Wolfe's translation, which is not \nnecessarily word-for-word anyone else's, and so it might therefore make \nsense that you couldn't find it with Google.\n\nSomeone with a much more encyclopedic knowledge of Borges than I might \nbe able to say whether it's a quotation or just something that sounds \nkinda like Borges.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0DDAA1E0-7DA0-418F-8115-B244B36DEB6E@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2011-01-01T16:45:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Quotations", "in_reply_to": "<000601cba9bd$26d9eb80$748dc280$@yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Welcome. There seem to be a lot of \"Matthews\" around here. I know another Matthew NewSun nut who doesn't post here as well. Something about this quasi-religious stuff atracts Matthews.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 1, 2011, at 6:06 AM, \"Matthew Wisbey\" wrote:\nHi all\n\n \n\nI’ve just joined the list and hope to be an active participant in discussions. Please forgive me if the following question has already been addressed, I haven’t had time to work my way through the archives ?\n\n \n\nWhen Severian meets Ultan in the library, the Master Librarian quotes the following lines to him:\n\n \n\n?Of the trail of ink there is no end.\n\n?A man will give his life to the turning over of a collection of books.\n\n \n\nThanks in advance for your responses.\n\n \n\nMatt\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-01T21:07:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Quotations", "in_reply_to": "<0DDAA1E0-7DA0-418F-8115-B244B36DEB6E@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Wisby: I've just joined the list and hope to be an active participant in\ndiscussions. Please forgive me if the following question has already been\naddressed, I haven't had time to work my way through the archives ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWelcome Matthew! Six years ago I joined the List and did my best to peruse the archives\nfirst. It was really difficult then. Now I think it is just too damn big to try anything more\nthan cursory perusal. We rehash questions here all the time. No problem. Most of the time I find \nnew insights with re-discussion. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son O' Witz: There seem to be a lot of \"Matthews\" around here...Something about this quasi-religious \nstuff atracts Matthews." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWould you prefer Matthew's name was John or Joshua? heh. (We've had a lot of JW's here too)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When Severian meets Ultan in the library, the Master Librarian quotes the\nfollowing lines to him:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "'Of the trail of ink there is no end.'\n'A man will give his life to the turning over of a collection of books.'" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nJose Luis Borges wrote a story called \"Mirror Of Ink\". It was set in ancient times, involved a ruler and \nhis wizard advisor, and an execution, a beheading. Maybe an indirect inspiration for BotNS? Perhaps the quote \nwas Wolfe acknowledging Borges as his direct predecessor.\n \n \nBorges also wrote about the \"Library Of Babel\". \"Many of Borges's signature themes are featured in the story, \nincluding infinity, reality, cabalistic reasoning, and labyrinths\". Some quotes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1.\"The universe (which others call the Library)....\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2.The mystics claim that their ecstasy reveals to them a circular chamber containing a great circular book, \nwhose spine is continuous and which follows the complete circle of the walls; but their testimony is suspect; \ntheir words, obscure. This cyclical book is God.) " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3.We also know of another superstition of that time: that of the Man of the Book....there must exist a book \nwhich is the formula and perfect compendium of all the rest: some librarian has gone through it and he is \nanalogous to a god." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4.If honor and wisdom and happiness are not for me, let them be for others. Let heaven exist, though my place \nbe in hell." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "5.I venture to suggest this solution to the ancient problem: The Library is unlimited and cyclical. If an eternal \ntraveler were to cross it in any direction, after centuries he would see that the same volumes were repeated \nin the same disorder (which, thus repeated, would be an order: the Order). My solitude is gladdened by this \nelegant hope." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThere is a lot more. I think WOlfe owes much to Borges. David (stockhoff), per our previous discussion and my \nobservations of possible devil/demiurge associations with Ultan (Borges), it may be that Wolfe does this inspired \nby Borges' own self-assessment (if there is more in his work like #4).\n \n \nHere is an interesting list of books:\nhttp://www.interleaves.org/~rteeter/grtborges.html\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D1FA365.4020800@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-01T21:57:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Quotations", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 01/01/2011 03:07 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nThere is a lot more. I think WOlfe owes much to Borges. David (stockhoff), per our previous discussion and my\nobservations of possible devil/demiurge associations with Ultan (Borges), it may be that Wolfe does this inspired\nby Borges' own self-assessment (if there is more in his work like #4)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm quite sure that:\n\n1) Ultan is meant to be (FSVO) Borges. In fact it's Ultan that \nconvinced me that Nessus was intended to be the future Buenos Aires, \nbecause after all how many south-of-the-Equator blind National \nLibrarians can there be?\n\n2) Cyby is the Gary-Stu insertion of Wolfe into the story (thanks to \nsomeone--maybe Borski? Maybe someone else? at ReaderCon '98 for \npointing this out to me).\n\n3) So of course Ultan is Author-as-Demiurge, and as acknowledged mentor \nto our actual authorial demiurge. But then I think of BotNS, in some \nsense, as \"What if Borges had written _The Dying Earth_?\"\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-01T22:34:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Quotations", "in_reply_to": "<4D1FA365.4020800@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton: Cyby is the Gary-Stu insertion of Wolfe into the story (thanks to \nsomeone--maybe Borski? Maybe someone else? at ReaderCon '98 for \npointing this out to me)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nI agree. Although...I think it might be more complex. Ultan mentions reading on the\n49th floor, overlooking a bed of rosemary; while Wolfe published SotT at age 49 having\nwife Rosemary. Might be a bit of WOlfe in Ultan also.\n \nI think this is paralleled later. I'm not the only one to find Severian's ostensible Dad, \nOuen having a physical description which matches Gene WOlfe's at that time. Master and \napprentice combined. Father and son combined. (I won't mention Dionysus, Zeus The OUtsider \nand Pas at this time. I WON'T!)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So of course Ultan is Author-as-Demiurge, and as acknowledged mentor \nto our actual authorial demiurge. But then I think of BotNS, in some \nsense, as \"What if Borges had written _The Dying Earth_?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nOh, hell yes. That is just perfect. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-01T22:38:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Quotations", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Master and apprentice combined. Father and son combined. (I won't mention Dionysus, \nZeus The OUtsider and Pas at this time. I WON'T!)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nor Jesus. Nope sorry. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }