{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5867", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5867, "subject": "Atlantis and Gondwanaland", "messages": 31, "voices": 12, "first": "2011-01-03T03:51:39+00:00", "last": "2011-01-05T00:28:01+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-03T03:51:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Atlantis and Gondwanaland", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perusing the text to respond to Gerry's post, I found an interesting section. During\ntheir lessons, David is peeking at \"Polyphemus, The Cyclops and Odysseus\". This story\ninvolves blinding the giant and tricking him by pretending Odysseus' name is \"Noman\".\nSort of a stretch but I wonder if this could hint that all involved (even Dr. Veil)\nare blind to the fact that they are not men. If not that, it must connote something.\n \nAnyway, the main thing is that during this lesson, Number Five says he glosses upon\n\"the Etruscans, Atlantis, and the tenacity and expansionist tendencies of a \nhypothetical technological culture occupying Gondwanaland\".\n \n \nAs has been discussed a couple times in the past year, the Old Wise One Shadow Child\nprovides the rather impossible list of possible home nations on earth as, \"Atlantis or Mu--\nor Gondwanaland, Africa, Poictesme, or The Country Of Friends.\"\n \n \nWhat might be the connection between these two references? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D21CE14.9000700@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-01-03T13:24:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Atlantis and Gondwanaland", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are a few thoughts that I had on reading FHOC and I have not moved \nforward much from them:\n\n(1) The Shadow Children preceded us on Earth, having left Earth before \nwe evolved. We may be their descendants.\n\n(2) #1, but as an in-joke.\n\n(3) The possibility of #1 is meant to make us imagine sharing a planet \nwith a closely-related species, or fairies, or whatever, i.e., induce a \nsort of disorienting paranoia about our own identity as humans. (As you \nsuggest for David et al.)\n\n(4) He doesn't know what he's talking about. He's just repeating \nmyths---literary ones that are becoming \"real\" ones. Perhaps he got them \nfrom reading human minds or something.\n\n(5) All these are meant to make us question what we think we know." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/2/2011 10:51 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nPerusing the text to respond to Gerry's post, I found an interesting section. During\ntheir lessons, David is peeking at \"Polyphemus, The Cyclops and Odysseus\". This story\ninvolves blinding the giant and tricking him by pretending Odysseus' name is \"Noman\".\nSort of a stretch but I wonder if this could hint that all involved (even Dr. Veil)\nare blind to the fact that they are not men. If not that, it must connote something.\n\nAnyway, the main thing is that during this lesson, Number Five says he glosses upon\n\"the Etruscans, Atlantis, and the tenacity and expansionist tendencies of a\nhypothetical technological culture occupying Gondwanaland\".\n\n\nAs has been discussed a couple times in the past year, the Old Wise One Shadow Child\nprovides the rather impossible list of possible home nations on earth as, \"Atlantis or Mu--\nor Gondwanaland, Africa, Poictesme, or The Country Of Friends.\"\n\n\nWhat might be the connection between these two references? \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-03T14:31:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Atlantis and Gondwanaland", "in_reply_to": "<4D21CE14.9000700@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: \n(1) The Shadow Children preceded us on Earth, having left Earth before \nwe evolved. We may be their descendants.\n(2) #1, but as an in-joke.\n(3) The possibility of #1 is meant to make us imagine sharing a planet \nwith a closely-related species, or fairies, or whatever, i.e., induce a \nsort of disorienting paranoia about our own identity as humans. (As you \nsuggest for David et al.)\n(4) He doesn't know what he's talking about. He's just repeating \nmyths---literary ones that are becoming \"real\" ones. Perhaps he got them \nfrom reading human minds or something.\n(5) All these are meant to make us question what we think we know." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nDamn David! I ask for a light and you give me the sun. This may be all we need\nto know, not only about 5HoC but perhaps about Inhumi, the malevolent presences\non Urth, maybe an Evil Guest? Maybe everything?\n \n#5 (heh) goes without saying. But #1 and #3 are really insightful and seem to \nhave global impact on the lupine universe(s). Jeff doesn't like global impact\nideas, but I do.\n \nNo time now but these ideas are worth exploring in depth, (to the point of tossing\nout some of my previous ideas).\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<754278.63404.qm@web84106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-01-03T15:35:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Atlantis and Gondwanaland", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course I meant them in a limited sense (i.e., limited to Fifth Head), but they do seem to recur in Wolfe. I'd relate them to his general idea about myths, how ancient myths reflect attempts by intelligent people to understand the world and approach divinity, etc. Stories we tell ourselves about who-came-before are all grist for Wolfe's mill, or meat for his fangs, or ....\nIn other words, I wouldn't go so far as to say Wolfe thinks giants (or shadows) did once roam the earth, or that they did on Urth, or that they did on Blue, etc. Just that we humans always talk about such ideas and they hold---and generate---meaning for us. (Incidentally, have you ever noticed how sickeningly popular prophecies are in Hollywood and cheap fiction? Wolfe shows comparatively little interest in them---he prefers myths about the past.)\nI just read Margaret Atwood's latest novel, Year of the Flood. She says (probably quoting?Plato by way of someone else) \"All religion is a shadow of God, and shadows of God are not God.\" I think Wolfe agrees, and this lets him play with myths while suggesting that they hold truth along with lies (both \"true\" lies and false ones).\n--- On Mon, 1/3/11, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Lee Berman \nSubject: (urth) Atlantis and Gondwanaland\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Monday, January 3, 2011, 9:31 AM\nDavid Stockhoff: \n(1) The Shadow Children preceded us on Earth, having left Earth before \nwe evolved. We may be their descendants.\n(2) #1, but as an in-joke.\n(3) The possibility of #1 is meant to make us imagine sharing a planet \nwith a closely-related species, or fairies, or whatever, i.e., induce a \nsort of disorienting paranoia about our own identity as humans. (As you \nsuggest for David et al.)\n(4) He doesn't know what he's talking about. He's just repeating \nmyths---literary ones that are becoming \"real\" ones. Perhaps he got them \nfrom reading human minds or something.\n(5) All these are meant to make us question what we think we know." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nDamn David! I ask for a light and you give me the sun. This may be all we need\nto know, not only about 5HoC but perhaps about Inhumi, the malevolent presences\non Urth, maybe an Evil Guest? Maybe everything?\n \n#5 (heh) goes without saying. But #1 and #3 are really insightful and seem to \nhave global impact on the lupine universe(s). Jeff doesn't like global impact\nideas, but I do.\n \nNo time now but these ideas are worth exploring in depth, (to the point of tossing\nout some of my previous ideas).\n? ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ? " } ] }, { "message_id": "<478019.9247.qm@web161808.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-01-03T15:35:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a false coin", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wanted to see if anyone was prepared to discuss something symbolic and its connotations, and this is not part of a \"theory\" so hopefully it won't engender something atrocious.\n\nVodalus hands Severian his little fake coin for killing an innocent man trying to prevent the remains of his family from being stolen and eaten and saving a cannibal (nevermind for now that the autarch is also a cannibal). \n\nThen Sev goes on to talk about how symbols shape us. When Talos comes at the end of New Sun to give Sev the coin he owes him, its? a fake, as is the one Vodalus gave him. In light of saying that we are shaped by symbols, is the fake coin of Vodalus important for making a statement about Severian himself or not? Is Wolfe implying that the fake coin, which he admits in Castle of Days is a symbol of the sun, shaped Sev into something genuine? ( I think this reading is re-inforced by the themes in Wolfe's later fiction, BUT i have some doubts here.)? Severian was paid in counterfeit coin for killing a man and saving an unworthy master .... and later Severian muses it must be worth it to preserve the high and the low in man at the end of Citadel, I think, where he talks about punishing the torturers so they appreciate their position.\n\nDoes that fake coin imply the situation of the sun is a conjuror's trick at best, serving a false master and killing an innocent man to pillage the remains of Urth? (ie - is the situation of the fake coin in parrallel with the future sun of Urth and the ambiguous Vodalus, what was his title? Liege of Leaves?)? Does?Sev's musings on the necessity of the high and the low at the end of Citadel work against the result in Urth of the New Sun where high and low together are wiped out?\n\nHopefully there is something to discuss there.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<137097.99401.qm@web84105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-01-03T15:44:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a false coin", "in_reply_to": "<478019.9247.qm@web161808.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You mean aside from your medieval prejudice against cannibalism?\nMore seriously, I question whether anything on Urth is high. Can you give an example?\nAnd I would theorize that nothing is truly fake in Wolfe. This ties to my current thread with Lee and a topic I return to often: all myths are more or less true. All lies contain truth. As fake as Vodalus and the coin and the autarch and the Commonwealth and the games of the Hieros are---all of them, in every sense and on every level---they are also real and true. Or so my theory forces me to conclude.\nThe open question is what that means.\n\n--- On Mon, 1/3/11, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\nFrom: Marc Aramini \nSubject: (urth) a false coin\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, January 3, 2011, 10:35 AM\n\nWanted to see if anyone was prepared to discuss something symbolic and its connotations, and this is not part of a \"theory\" so hopefully it won't engender something atrocious.\n\nVodalus hands Severian his little fake coin for killing an innocent man trying to prevent the remains of his family from being stolen and eaten and saving a cannibal (nevermind for now that the autarch is also a cannibal). \n\nThen Sev goes on to talk about how symbols shape us. When Talos comes at the end of New Sun to give Sev the coin he owes him, its? a fake, as is the one Vodalus gave him. In light of saying that we are shaped by symbols, is the fake coin of Vodalus important for making a statement about Severian himself or not? Is Wolfe implying that the fake coin, which he admits in Castle of Days is a symbol of the sun, shaped Sev into something genuine? ( I think this reading is re-inforced by the themes in Wolfe's later fiction, BUT i have some doubts here.)? Severian was paid in counterfeit coin for killing a man and saving an unworthy master .... and later Severian muses it must be worth it to preserve the high and the low in man at the end of Citadel, I think, where he talks about punishing the torturers so they appreciate their position.\n\nDoes that fake coin imply the situation of the sun is a conjuror's trick at best, serving a false master and killing an innocent man to pillage the remains of Urth? (ie - is the situation of the fake coin in parrallel with the future sun of Urth and the ambiguous Vodalus, what was his title? Liege of Leaves?)? Does?Sev's musings on the necessity of the high and the low at the end of Citadel work against the result in Urth of the New Sun where high and low together are wiped out?\n\nHopefully there is something to discuss there." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1525cff49796ec8be292ed48c48ef77f@imap.io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton IO", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-03T16:17:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a false coin", "in_reply_to": "<478019.9247.qm@web161808.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 3 Jan 2011 07:35:39 -0800 (PST), Marc Aramini\n wrote:\nDoes that fake coin imply the situation of the sun is a conjuror's trick\nat best, serving a false master and killing an innocent man to pillage\nthe\nremains of Urth? (ie - is the situation of the fake coin in parrallel\nwith\nthe future sun of Urth and the ambiguous Vodalus, what was his title?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Liege" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "of Leaves?)? Does?Sev's musings on the necessity of the high and the\nlow at\nthe end of Citadel work against the result in Urth of the New Sun where\nhigh and low together are wiped out?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A slightly more hopeful reading would be more along the lines of \"we\nbecome what we imitate.\"\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-03T17:31:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a false coin", "in_reply_to": "<1525cff49796ec8be292ed48c48ef77f@imap.io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: Is Wolfe implying that the fake coin, which he admits in Castle of Days is a \nsymbol of the sun, shaped Sev into something genuine?.....Does that fake coin imply the situation \nof the sun is a conjuror's trick at best, serving a false master and killing an innocent man to \npillage the remains of Urth? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think this is a very astute assessment of a symbol. It might disturb some, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: And I would theorize that nothing is truly fake in Wolfe. This ties to my \ncurrent thread with Lee and a topic I return to often: all myths are more or less true. All \nlies contain truth. As fake as Vodalus and the coin and the autarch and the Commonwealth and \nthe games of the Hieros are---all of them, in every sense and on every level---they are also \nreal and true. Or so my theory forces me to conclude. The open question is what that means." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI agree with David but I would add the complementary balance: All truth contains lies. All reality\nis partially based on myth and personal bias. Tao/Ouroboros symbol. A bit of evil in all good things\nand a bit of good in all evil things.\n \nThus Severian's godhood and immortality based on the gift of a star from the angels is transitory.\nHe loses that power as soon as it serves their purpose. His more enduring godhood comes as a gift\nfrom the \"demonic\" undine.\n \n[p.s. David, I was reminded of an addition to our discussion of \"Author as Demiurge\": Gene Wolfe's\nhome address on St. Croix is 666 Saltimbanque St.- the Satanic Performer]\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<13DD13E5-50C3-4195-8D8C-EE9E32AC059A@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2011-01-03T17:33:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a false coin", "in_reply_to": "<1525cff49796ec8be292ed48c48ef77f@imap.io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 3, 2011, at 8:17 AM, \"Adam Thornton (IO)\" wrote:\n\nOn Mon, 3 Jan 2011 07:35:39 -0800 (PST), Marc Aramini\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Does that fake coin imply the situation of the sun is a conjuror's trick\nat best, serving a false master and killing an innocent man to pillage\nthe\nremains of Urth? (ie - is the situation of the fake coin in parrallel\nwith\nthe future sun of Urth and the ambiguous Vodalus, what was his title?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Liege\nof Leaves?) Does Sev's musings on the necessity of the high and the\nlow at\nthe end of Citadel work against the result in Urth of the New Sun where\nhigh and low together are wiped out?\n\nA slightly more hopeful reading would be more along the lines of \"we\nbecome what we imitate.\"\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Flato recently answered my \"What the hell is the purpose of the false coin.\" question pretty well, I think.\n\nSeverian has blasted through oaths and alegiences as he \"backed inyo the throne.\" The false coin comes to light when he is Autarch. It is a reminder that the Autarchy itself is false gold, ie, being Autarch is not the big goal for Severian. \n\nWorks well." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflatourth at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-03T17:35:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a false coin", "in_reply_to": "<1525cff49796ec8be292ed48c48ef77f@imap.io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was talking over this exact thing with Witz the other day. Witz and I are\nboth of the mind that there is a progressive movement in Severian's\nCharacter toward giving allegiance to a higher and higher source as the book\nmoves forward, or maybe is shedding layers of earthly allegiance and\ndiscovering a real impulse toward the increate. I think there are a lot of\nexamples of this throughout the books. Early on, Severian receives the\ncoin, as you say, from Vodalus, whom he internally vows to serve from that\npoint on. And arguably that choice sets him on his path toward the throne.\n So no having attained the throne, reached the pinnacle of urthly power,\nwhere many would be more than satisfied, he's given another coin, which\nreminds him of that first coin, but which at this point he recognizes (is\ntold) is counterfeit. For me, I see this as a final symbol of Severian\nbeing reminded, through symbol, that the Autarchy isn't his final purpose,\nthat he serves something higher. I'm running short on time right now, so I\ncan't go into this more subtly, and I think there is more there to say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 8:17 AM, Adam Thornton (IO) wrote:\n\nOn Mon, 3 Jan 2011 07:35:39 -0800 (PST), Marc Aramini\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Does that fake coin imply the situation of the sun is a conjuror's trick\nat best, serving a false master and killing an innocent man to pillage\nthe\nremains of Urth? (ie - is the situation of the fake coin in parrallel\nwith\nthe future sun of Urth and the ambiguous Vodalus, what was his title?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Liege\nof Leaves?) Does Sev's musings on the necessity of the high and the\nlow at\nthe end of Citadel work against the result in Urth of the New Sun where\nhigh and low together are wiped out?\n\nA slightly more hopeful reading would be more along the lines of \"we\nbecome what we imitate.\"\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-03T18:10:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a false coin", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nI agree with David but I would add the complementary balance: All truth \ncontains lies. All reality\nis partially based on myth and personal bias. Tao/Ouroboros symbol." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So why the insistence that this must not apply to Veil's Hypothesis?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<201612.1423.qm@web84108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-01-03T18:21:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a false coin", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How would you see that? Perhaps you are thinking of the author as acrobat or mountebank (that is, a hint that Wolfe is playing the trickster), but it could also mean that the existence of true evil is false: evil is a performance.\nor is evil in the act and not the intent? that might be overthinking.\n\n--- On Mon, 1/3/11, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nFrom: Lee Berman \nSubject: (urth) a false coin\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Monday, January 3, 2011, 12:31 PM\n\n[p.s. David, I was reminded of an addition to our discussion of \"Author as Demiurge\": Gene Wolfe's\nhome address on St. Croix is 666 Saltimbanque St.- the Satanic Performer]" } ] }, { "message_id": "<794175.9571.qm@web84104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-01-03T18:23:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a false coin", "in_reply_to": "<13DD13E5-50C3-4195-8D8C-EE9E32AC059A@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Being Autarch is a negative MacGuffin!\n\n--- On Mon, 1/3/11, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) a false coin" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-03T18:59:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Atlantis and Gondwanaland", "in_reply_to": "<754278.63404.qm@web84106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Well, you're consistent, Lee. ;) I wonder if \"There is something essentially \nevil in the essence of Creation.\" I think certainly there is something essentially evil in the \nessence of Man. These are related but different; one calls for a Devil and the other does not. \nI do not believe in an eternal Evil and I do not think Wolfe does either." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We we on earth don't have any other Creations to compare to. (hmm..Gondwanaland predates the \nevolution of primates but I wonder it Wolfe thinks it corresponds with the evolution of\nconsciousness. Surely evil is partly based on this attribute...nah, I guess not. If you are\nreligious, you believe consciousness and intelligence predate the appearance of humanity..)\n \nAnyway, my suggestion of the universal evil inherent in Creation can be found on Blue/Green. Isn't\nthere evidence that the evil of the Inhumi/Neighbors predates the appearance of human beings there?\n \nOf course this is balanced by the Whorl which is a Creation of an ostensibly pure evil guy and his \nnasty family of monsters but ends up having elements of good keep asserting themselves. Heck they\ncan't even sustain human sacrifice! \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-03T19:10:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a false coin", "in_reply_to": "<794175.9571.qm@web84104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: So why the insistence that this must not apply to Veil's Hypothesis?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSee my last post. (and remember I am playing a role)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David, I was reminded of an addition to our discussion of \"Author as Demiurge\": Gene Wolfe's\nhome address on St. Croix is 666 Saltimbanque St.- the Satanic Performer" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff- How would you see that? Perhaps you are thinking of the author as acrobat or \nmountebank (that is, a hint that Wolfe is playing the trickster), but it could also mean that \nthe existence of true evil is false: evil is a performance. or is evil in the act and not the \nintent? that might be overthinking." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNo, not overthinking. Entirely and directly to the point, I think. We on this list have focused\non the principle of feigning goodness long enough that it becomes the truth. What about the reverse?\nIf someone feigns evil for long enough they become evil.\n \nI am suggesting that Lucifer and Judas might be considered the truest and most faithful companions\nof God and Jesus because they faithfully carried out their necessary roles, knowing what it would\ndo to them. What it would make them become. \n \n*SPOILER* (for movie fans)\n \nJust as we learn Severus Snape was Dumbledore's most faithful, trusted ally. More so even than \nHarry Potter. Rowling may not be a Wolfe but she has certain mythological and story-telling\nprinciples solidly in place.\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<817181.81903.qm@web114709.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-01-03T21:55:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 666 Saltimbanque St. [was Re: a false coin]", "in_reply_to": "<201612.1423.qm@web84108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm sure I've read that 666 is a hint that the Gene Wolfes, having egotistically \ncut themselves off from humanity by cloning, could become the Beast. The \nauthor's use of his own name suggests that he and everyone have this evil \npotential. And yes, maybe that some acts are evil regardless of intent.\n\nI believe this, and I'd thought it was widely believed, but maybe I generalized \nfrom one reader to all.\n\nIf I'd been alert enough when that guy asked for interview questions, my first \nsuggestion would have been how Wolfe feels about cloning now that it is or may \nsoon be possible, and in light of the possibility that Chris in Pirate Freedom \nwas cloned. (My next suggestion would have been about torture.)\n\n\nJerry Friedman is sure that \"saltimbanque\", meaning \"clown\", couldn't possibly \nbe a clown-clone pun, because that would be beneath Wolfe. Not." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D224A21.6090504@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-01-03T22:13:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Atlantis and Gondwanaland", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess I'm thinking of a conscious Eternal Evil, not one that says \"I \nam Evil\" but one that, like Satan in Paradise Lost, is self-pitying and \nprideful and jealous and will do anything to gain power over others, \neven destroying the world so no one else can rule it. I don't think this \nkind of evil exists, because there is enough stupidity and callous \nignorance in the world to explain all the symptoms of Eternal Evil. \n(Occam's Parsimonious Razor.)\n\nThe evil we see in Wolfe is human and rational (usually---you could make \na case for the woman who turns her children into furniture). His \ncharacters are often ordinary people trying not to do evil, and who know \nthe chance for evil lies within themselves. Those characters who do evil \nare often specifically described by Severian as being no or little worse \nthan others who succeed in avoiding doing evil---just a little hungrier \nor more desperate. Baldanders' cruel experiments are an exception, but \neven he is not a devil; he does nothing to humans he would not do to \nhimself. Typhon may have superpowers, but if he doesn't, the evil of his \nempire lies in his servants, not himself.\n\nOccasionally, evil is distant and ambiguous. We may think of Cthulhu \nwhen we read of Abaia and Erebus, but isn't he really just a large \nhungry alien? It's not his fault if humans will betray other humans to \nsupply him with dinner or if his emanations give sensitive people \nnightmares. While these creatures may be evil in the sense of being \nmostly appetite---and having no interest in the divine spark of \nhumanity---whose intelligence goes toward luring prey the way a deep-sea \nfish lures smaller fish or a spider builds a web, I get no sense that \nthese beings are any different. Just bigger and capable of defeating and \neating humans.\n\nEvil requires rationality. The Neighbors, being sentient, are therefore \ncapable of evil." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/3/2011 1:59 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: Well, you're consistent, Lee. ;) I wonder if \"There is something essentially\nevil in the essence of Creation.\" I think certainly there is something essentially evil in the\nessence of Man. These are related but different; one calls for a Devil and the other does not.\nI do not believe in an eternal Evil and I do not think Wolfe does either." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We we on earth don't have any other Creations to compare to. (hmm..Gondwanaland predates the\nevolution of primates but I wonder it Wolfe thinks it corresponds with the evolution of\nconsciousness. Surely evil is partly based on this attribute...nah, I guess not. If you are\nreligious, you believe consciousness and intelligence predate the appearance of humanity..)\n\nAnyway, my suggestion of the universal evil inherent in Creation can be found on Blue/Green. Isn't\nthere evidence that the evil of the Inhumi/Neighbors predates the appearance of human beings there?\n\nOf course this is balanced by the Whorl which is a Creation of an ostensibly pure evil guy and his\nnasty family of monsters but ends up having elements of good keep asserting themselves. Heck they\ncan't even sustain human sacrifice! \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D224A76.4000803@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-01-03T22:15:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a false coin", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with this:\n\nIf someone feigns evil for long enough they become evil." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/3/2011 2:10 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David, I was reminded of an addition to our discussion of \"Author as Demiurge\": Gene Wolfe's\nhome address on St. Croix is 666 Saltimbanque St.- the Satanic Performer" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff- How would you see that? Perhaps you are thinking of the author as acrobat or\nmountebank (that is, a hint that Wolfe is playing the trickster), but it could also mean that\nthe existence of true evil is false: evil is a performance. or is evil in the act and not the\nintent? that might be overthinking." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, not overthinking. Entirely and directly to the point, I think. We on this list have focused\non the principle of feigning goodness long enough that it becomes the truth. What about the reverse?\nIf someone feigns evil for long enough they become evil.\n\nI am suggesting that Lucifer and Judas might be considered the truest and most faithful companions\nof God and Jesus because they faithfully carried out their necessary roles, knowing what it would\ndo to them. What it would make them become." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2011-01-03T23:04:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Atlantis and Gondwanaland", "in_reply_to": "<4D21CE14.9000700@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 3 Jan 2011, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThere are a few thoughts that I had on reading FHOC and I have not moved \nforward much from them:\n\n(1) The Shadow Children preceded us on Earth, having left Earth before we \nevolved. We may be their descendants.\n..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "_Castleview_ has the same ...problems... Eg Excalibor is from the exploded \nplanet between Mars and Jupiter, Mr Fee has three pairs of eyes and \npipestem limbs, von Madadh is flanked by a group of near human apes.\n\nCheers, David Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<708897.11464.qm@web161807.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-01-03T23:25:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) false coin", "in_reply_to": "<4D224A21.6090504@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Argh, nobody called me out on my blatant apophasis here. Have it your way!\n\n\nwhen I wrote:\n\n?is not part of a \"theory\" so hopefully ... .... ...\n\n?Severian was paid in counterfeit coin for killing a man and saving an unworthy master .... \n\nDoes that fake coin imply the situation of the sun is a conjuror's trick at best, serving a false master and killing an innocent man to pillage the remains of Urth? (ie - is the situation of the fake coin in parrallel with the future sun of Urth and the ambiguous Vodalus, what was his title? LIEGE OF LEAVES?)?\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-04T01:27:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 666 Saltimbanque St.", "in_reply_to": "<817181.81903.qm@web114709.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman: Jerry Friedman is sure that \"saltimbanque\", meaning \"clown\", couldn't possibly \nbe a clown-clone pun, because that would be beneath Wolfe. Not." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nErm..are we talking about the Gene Wolfe who wears a Texas bolo tie, a Chicago moustache and \nquotes Roger Rabbit and enjoys Pinnochio, the Disney movie? Some here have attempted to paint\nGene Wolfe as an academic elitist, divorced from pop culture and cheap humor. I think they succeed \nonly in painting themselves that color.\n \nAnyway, clown might be a pun on clone. But since Gene WOlfe inserts his name into the story as\nan author, I lean toward the \"saltimbanque\" interpretation as performer/trickster. With the not-\nso-subtle allusion to The Great Deceiver. But could be all of the above. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-04T01:41:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Atlantis and Gondwanaland", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff-The evil we see in Wolfe is human and rational." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nThere is a lot of argument for this view. I don't want to deny its\nmerit. Still, Wolfe is a religious guy. A Christian/Catholic. In the\nBible, which came first Adam or evil? (Serpent? Satan?)\n \n(or if you want evolution, did evil really originate in Homo sapiens?\nis there not the significant rudiments of rationality to be seen in our\nprimate and cetacean cousins? Many experiments demonstrate an ethical sense\namong them and other simpler animals too...take Fido..)\n \n \nThere are the Neighbors as you mention. Rational. So they have an evil side. \nBut weren't they pretty good guys until they went to Green?\n \nI get the feeling Wolfe is saying that the \"evil in the hearts of \nrational men\" isn't all there is to the story. I just have the intuition he\nthinks there is an outside presence which will tend to bring out this\nevil tendency in our hearts when put in the right location/circumstances. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2011-01-04T10:51:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Atlantis and Gondwanaland", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nOf course these possibilities are for the most part absurd (except for\nAfrica, I guess) - it is pretty clearly established that the Shadow Children\nare the descendants of human star travellers who arrived a century before\nthe French colonists. ?They have forgotten the name of their original home\n(though they remember where it is and point out Sol in the sky). ?Wolfe\nwhimsically has them remember some of the same names mentioned by the\nnarrator of the first novel. The names also serve as an additional\ndemonstration that they originate from our own culture or a successor, for\nonly such a culture would know the names Atlantis and Gondwanaland." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, it's not as clear cut as that. The Old Wise One says:\n\n\"we also hear the mind-singing of our brothers - who do not sing - as\nthey pass up and down between the stars... these thoughts come into\nour songs. It is possible that our home was named Atlantis of Mu -\nGondwanaland, Africa, Poictesme or The Country of Friends.\"\n\nIn other words, the telepathic Shadow Children are dipping into the\nminds of passing starship crews to get these names. And presumably\nlooking in the folder labelled 'lost lands' or 'human origins'.\n\nThey don't necessarily 'remember' these names because they are the\ndescendants of former colonists. They could be what they appear to be:\ntelepathic, indigenous aliens with a hive mind." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-04T17:03:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Atlantis and Gondwanaland", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 2:51 AM, Tony Ellis wrote:\n\"we also hear the mind-singing of our brothers - who do not sing - as\nthey pass up and down between the stars... these thoughts come into\nour songs. It is possible that our home was named Atlantis of Mu -\nGondwanaland, Africa, Poictesme or The Country of Friends.\"\n\nIn other words, the telepathic Shadow Children are dipping into the\nminds of passing starship crews to get these names. And presumably\nlooking in the folder labelled 'lost lands' or 'human origins'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is another interpretation available from this quotation: that\nthe Shadow Children, telepathic, are descended from a race that was\n_not_ telepathic, and travels between the stars. Whether or not this\nrace originated on Earth (in Atlantis, Mu, etc.), it is a race that\nhumans have not yet encontered.\n\nThat's how I read it anyway. Whether the O.W.O. is telling the truth\n(as he knows it) or not is another question." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-04T17:53:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Atlantis and Gondwanaland", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: There is another interpretation available from this quotation: that\nthe Shadow Children, telepathic, are descended from a race that was_not_ telepathic, and \ntravels between the stars. Whether or not this race originated on Earth (in Atlantis, Mu, \netc.), it is a race that humans have not yet encontered." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sounds a bit similar to David's ideas about an ancient race on earth of pixies, fairies or\nwhatever they might be (Tzadkiel clones?). I kinda like my suggestion too in regard to such \nnasty, imitative, parasitic things being an essential part of creation (especially if the \ncreator is a demiurge).\n \nTo me they all seem to have equal merit in the face of a contradictory, confusing text. Will be\ninteresting to see what criteria Tony uses to make his selection as \"best\". \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<084DB2C53ADF41B6A5A86C86EDE74FD8@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-04T18:41:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Atlantis and Gondwanaland", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Tony Ellis\" \nGerry Quinn wrote:\nOf course these possibilities are for the most part absurd (except for\nAfrica, I guess) - it is pretty clearly established that the Shadow \nChildren\nare the descendants of human star travellers who arrived a century \nbefore\nthe French colonists. They have forgotten the name of their original \nhome\n(though they remember where it is and point out Sol in the sky). Wolfe\nwhimsically has them remember some of the same names mentioned by the\nnarrator of the first novel. The names also serve as an additional\ndemonstration that they originate from our own culture or a successor, \nfor\nonly such a culture would know the names Atlantis and Gondwanaland." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, it's not as clear cut as that. The Old Wise One says:\n\n\"we also hear the mind-singing of our brothers - who do not sing - as\nthey pass up and down between the stars... these thoughts come into\nour songs. It is possible that our home was named Atlantis of Mu -\nGondwanaland, Africa, Poictesme or The Country of Friends.\"\n\nIn other words, the telepathic Shadow Children are dipping into the\nminds of passing starship crews to get these names. And presumably\nlooking in the folder labelled 'lost lands' or 'human origins'.\n\nThey don't necessarily 'remember' these names because they are the\ndescendants of former colonists. They could be what they appear to be:\ntelepathic, indigenous aliens with a hive mind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fair enough point about the source of the names. But they do refer to the \npassers-by as their brothers. Aliens *might* say that of humans, but it \nwould be a bit insulting to Sandwalker ;-)\n\nThey also say \"It is a long time since we took a Shadowfriend from among the \nnative population.\"\n\nI think Shadow Children as degenerate humans is the only reading that does \nnot have very serious problems.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2011-01-04T20:00:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Atlantis and Gondwanaland", "in_reply_to": "<084DB2C53ADF41B6A5A86C86EDE74FD8@jill>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nFair enough point about the source of the names. ?But they do refer to the\npassers-by as their brothers. ?Aliens *might* say that of humans, but it\nwould be a bit insulting to Sandwalker ;-)\n\nThey also say \"It is a long time since we took a Shadowfriend from among the\nnative population.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They also say \"'we are taller than you, and stronger. And wrapped in\nterrible glory... our glance withers, and we sing death to our\nenemies.\"\n\nNone of this is true. The reality, as Sandwalker muses, is that they\nare bent and weak and ill-looking, and run from men.\n\nThe Shadow Children are crackheaded fantasists. They like to *think*\nthey are the humans. Later it is the Old Wise One himself who rebuts\nthis.\n\nMy reading is that it would be quite natural for a race of telepathic,\nemphatic shapechangers to mistakenly believe that they are the thing\nthey have tried to imitate." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-04T20:43:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Atlantis and Gondwanaland", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tony Ellis: They also say \"'we are taller than you, and stronger. And wrapped in terrible glory\n... our glance withers, and we sing death to our enemies.\"None of this is true. The reality, as \nSandwalker muses, is that they are bent and weak and ill-looking, and run from men.\nThe Shadow Children are crackheaded fantasists. They like to *think* they are the humans. Later \nit is the Old Wise One himself who rebuts this. My reading is that it would be quite natural for \na race of telepathic, emphatic shapechangers to mistakenly believe that they are the thing\nthey have tried to imitate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSeems like pretty good arguments for Shadow Children to be native to Ste. Anne. I think James might\nagree. But Gerry says his conclusion is the best. What am I supposed to do? Ignore someone and latch\nonto the other? The agony. Surely one of these \"best\" has to be the obvious and clear best. Doesn't it? \n \nI mean, there is no possible way elements of both could be true. Is there?\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-04T21:08:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Atlantis and Gondwanaland", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2011/01/04, ?s 20:43, Lee Berman \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I mean, there is no possible way elements of both could be true. Is \nthere?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose this is rhetorical, but I'll bite: Eurth is St Croix. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-04T21:24:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Atlantis and Gondwanaland", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I mean, there is no possible way elements of both could be true. Is there?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suppose this is rhetorical, but I'll bite: Eurth is St Croix. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, rhetorical. And you are bad Antonio. Very very bad! ;- ).\n \nAnyway, I think some of the ideas David and I threw back and forth incorporate\nelements of both. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D23BB11.20006@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-01-05T00:28:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Atlantis and Gondwanaland", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nice! Yes, that line has the ring of a poet singing about his own ancestors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/4/2011 3:00 PM, Tony Ellis wrote:\nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Fair enough point about the source of the names. But they do refer to the\npassers-by as their brothers. Aliens *might* say that of humans, but it\nwould be a bit insulting to Sandwalker ;-)\n\nThey also say \"It is a long time since we took a Shadowfriend from among the\nnative population.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They also say \"'we are taller than you, and stronger. And wrapped in\nterrible glory... our glance withers, and we sing death to our\nenemies.\"\n\nNone of this is true. The reality, as Sandwalker muses, is that they\nare bent and weak and ill-looking, and run from men.\n\nThe Shadow Children are crackheaded fantasists. They like to *think*\nthey are the humans. Later it is the Old Wise One himself who rebuts\nthis.\n\nMy reading is that it would be quite natural for a race of telepathic,\nemphatic shapechangers to mistakenly believe that they are the thing\nthey have tried to imitate." } ] } ] }