{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5868", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5868, "subject": "Atlantis and Gonawanaland", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2011-01-03T17:20:40+00:00", "last": "2011-01-04T22:02:27+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-03T17:20:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Atlantis and Gonawanaland", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Of course I meant them in a limited sense (i.e., limited to Fifth Head), \nbut they do seem to recur in Wolfe. I'd relate them to his general idea about myths, how \nancient myths reflect attempts by intelligent people to understand the world and approach \ndivinity, etc. Stories we tell ourselves about who-came-before are all grist for Wolfe's \nmill, or meat for his fangs, or ...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In other words, I wouldn't go so far as to say Wolfe thinks giants (or shadows) did once roam \nthe earth, or that they did on Urth, or that they did on Blue, etc. Just that we humans always \ntalk about such ideas and they hold---and generate---meaning for us. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI would go that far. Wolfe had point blank stated he considers the ancient gods to be real.\nReal in what sense is a question. Using real places of origin like Gondwanaland and Africa\nand pairing them with legendary and fictional places like Atlantis, Mu and Poictesme may be\nhis way of saying their \"reality\" may be best expressed in fiction (hopefully that contradiction\ndoesn't cause some purists to tear their hair out).\n \nGondwanaland was probably picked because it predates even primate evolution. Shadow Children \nand their ilk on each planet go deeper than just an evolutionary memory of little monkeys and\nbig monkeys. Probably deeper than the reptiles and white worms and parasitic vines which are\nhinted at in various stories. There is something essentially evil in the essence of Creation.\n \nScience is damn good tool but limited to explaining the things we can consciously perceive. I\nthink Wolfe is saying that God (good) and Evil are such ancient, cosmic, vast entities that we\ncan only attempt to comprehend them through subconscious processes like dreams and the gut-level\napprehension of mystic fiction (like the Bible and like a Wolfe story).\n \nHe feels free to flesh out angels and demons and gods and monsters in his stories because they ARE\nfiction and that is where fleshly versions of such things belong. (hint from the author, I think- \ndon't discount dream evidence in Wolfe stories). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<647254.61186.qm@web84101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-01-03T18:00:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Atlantis and Gonawanaland", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, you're consistent, Lee. ;)\nI wonder if \"There is something essentially evil in the essence of Creation.\" I think certainly there is something essentially evil in the essence of Man. These are related but different; one calls for a Devil and the other does not. I do not believe in an eternal Evil and I do not think Wolfe does either.\n--- On Mon, 1/3/11, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Lee Berman \nSubject: (urth) Atlantis and Gonawanaland\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Monday, January 3, 2011, 12:20 PM\nDavid Stockhoff: Of course I meant them in a limited sense (i.e., limited to Fifth Head), \nbut they do seem to recur in Wolfe. I'd relate them to his general idea about myths, how \nancient myths reflect attempts by intelligent people to understand the world and approach \ndivinity, etc. Stories we tell ourselves about who-came-before are all grist for Wolfe's \nmill, or meat for his fangs, or ...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In other words, I wouldn't go so far as to say Wolfe thinks giants (or shadows) did once roam \nthe earth, or that they did on Urth, or that they did on Blue, etc. Just that we humans always \ntalk about such ideas and they hold---and generate---meaning for us. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI would go that far. Wolfe had point blank stated he considers the ancient gods to be real.\nReal in what sense is a question. Using real places of origin like Gondwanaland and Africa\nand pairing them with legendary and fictional places like Atlantis, Mu and Poictesme may be\nhis way of saying their \"reality\" may be best expressed in fiction (hopefully that contradiction\ndoesn't cause some purists to tear their hair out).\n \nGondwanaland was probably picked because it predates even primate evolution. Shadow Children \nand their ilk on each planet go deeper than just an evolutionary memory of little monkeys and\nbig monkeys. Probably deeper than the reptiles and white worms and parasitic vines which are\nhinted at in various stories. There is something essentially evil in the essence of Creation.\n \nScience is damn good tool but limited to explaining the things we can consciously perceive. I\nthink Wolfe is saying that God (good) and Evil are such ancient, cosmic, vast entities that we\ncan only attempt to comprehend them through subconscious processes like dreams and the gut-level\napprehension of mystic fiction (like the Bible and like a Wolfe story).\n \nHe feels free to flesh out angels and demons and gods and monsters in his stories because they ARE\nfiction and that is where fleshly versions of such things belong. (hint from the author, I think- \ndon't discount dream evidence in Wolfe stories). ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ? " } ] }, { "message_id": "<06873DC3A43C43EDA67951EC3555775A@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-04T01:30:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Atlantis and Gonawanaland", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The simplest explanation of Atlantis and Gondwanaland is that it's a riff on \nthe observations of the narrator in the first novel, when forced by Mr. \nMillion to debate the origins of the abos:\n\n******\n\"...it is disrtinctly possible that the aborigines were descendants of some \nearlier wave of human expansion...\"\nMr. Million says mildly, \"I would confine myself to arguments of higher \nprobability if I were you.\"\nI nevertheless gloss upon the Etruscans, Atlantis, and the tenacity and \nexpansionist tendencies of a hypothethical technological culture occupying \nGondwanaland.\n******\n\nThe Shadow Children have forgotten the name of their original home. \nSpeaking for them, the Old Wise One mentions certain names as possibilities: \n\"I, for five, remember all these names.\"\n\nOf course these possibilities are for the most part absurd (except for \nAfrica, I guess) - it is pretty clearly established that the Shadow Children \nare the descendants of human star travellers who arrived a century before \nthe French colonists. They have forgotten the name of their original home \n(though they remember where it is and point out Sol in the sky). Wolfe \nwhimsically has them remember some of the same names mentioned by the \nnarrator of the first novel. The names also serve as an additional \ndemonstration that they originate from our own culture or a successor, for \nonly such a culture would know the names Atlantis and Gondwanaland.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2011-01-04T22:02:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Atlantis and Gonawanaland", "in_reply_to": "<06873DC3A43C43EDA67951EC3555775A@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 4 Jan 2011, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nThe Shadow Children have forgotten the name of their original home. Speaking \nfor them, the Old Wise One mentions certain names as possibilities: \"I, for \nfive, remember all these names.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An obvious typo. You meant:\n\nSpeaking for them, the Old Wise One mentions certain names as possibilities: \n\"I, for Five, remember all these names.\"\n\nCheers, David Duffy." } ] } ] }