{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5873", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5873, "subject": "It's getting hard...", "messages": 20, "voices": 12, "first": "2011-01-05T17:44:54+00:00", "last": "2011-01-07T19:29:36+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-05T17:44:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) It's getting hard...", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...for me to tell who's looking for truth and who's just trying to win.\n\nIf you're just trying to win (and note that this is addressed to\nnobody in particular), please shut up." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dave Muir-Bacon", "address": "dave.muir-bacon at tracegroup.com" }, "date": "2011-01-05T17:47:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) It's getting hard...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I only just joined the list; I hope it's not always going to this\nfractious....\n\n\nDave M-B\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net]\nOn Behalf Of Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\nSent: 05 January 2011 17:45\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSubject: (urth) It's getting hard...\n\n...for me to tell who's looking for truth and who's just trying to win.\n\nIf you're just trying to win (and note that this is addressed to nobody\nin particular), please shut up." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-05T17:50:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) It's getting hard...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dave --\n\nThere have been occasional periods of fractiousness in the past, but\nit isn't always like this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Dave Muir-Bacon\n wrote:\nI only just joined the list; I hope it's not always going to this\nfractious....\n\n\nDave M-B\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net]\nOn Behalf Of Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\nSent: 05 January 2011 17:45\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSubject: (urth) It's getting hard...\n\n...for me to tell who's looking for truth and who's just trying to win.\n\nIf you're just trying to win (and note that this is addressed to nobody\nin particular), please shut up.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7308252D-8607-42E7-B2F0-DB937D6CB8E6@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-05T17:58:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) It's getting hard...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, these things happen about once every two months or so. It will be followed by a three week lull. \n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 5, 2011, at 11:47 AM, \"Dave Muir-Bacon\" wrote:\nI only just joined the list; I hope it's not always going to this\nfractious....\n\n\nDave M-B\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net]\nOn Behalf Of Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\nSent: 05 January 2011 17:45\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSubject: (urth) It's getting hard...\n\n...for me to tell who's looking for truth and who's just trying to win.\n\nIf you're just trying to win (and note that this is addressed to nobody\nin particular), please shut up.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dave Muir-Bacon", "address": "dave.muir-bacon at tracegroup.com" }, "date": "2011-01-05T18:07:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) It's getting hard...", "in_reply_to": "<7308252D-8607-42E7-B2F0-DB937D6CB8E6@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well I might post something about Cerberus soon as I finish reading it,\nonly for the second time though, and I still find it the most\nfrustratingly enjoyable book. At least I got the references to Kate\nWilhelm, Virginia Woolf and the mis-shelved Vernor Vinge in the library\nthis time, as all being close to Wolfe.\n\n\nDave M-B\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net]\nOn Behalf Of Lane Haygood\nSent: 05 January 2011 17:58\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSubject: Re: (urth) It's getting hard...\n\nNo, these things happen about once every two months or so. It will be\nfollowed by a three week lull. \n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 5, 2011, at 11:47 AM, \"Dave Muir-Bacon\"\n wrote:\nI only just joined the list; I hope it's not always going to this \nfractious....\n\n\nDave M-B\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net]\nOn Behalf Of Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\nSent: 05 January 2011 17:45\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSubject: (urth) It's getting hard...\n\n...for me to tell who's looking for truth and who's just trying to\nwin.\n\nIf you're just trying to win (and note that this is addressed to \nnobody in particular), please shut up.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.netDisclaimer: \n\nThe contents of this E-mail plus any attachment is intended for the \nuse of the addressee only and is confidential, proprietary and may be \nprivileged. It will not be binding upon Trace Group or any group \ncompany (Trace). Opinions, conclusions, contractual obligations and \nother information in this message in so far as they relate to the \nofficial business of Trace must be specifically confirmed in writing \nby Trace. If you are not the intended recipient you must not copy this" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "message or attachment, use or disclose the contents to any other \nperson, but are requested to telephone or E-mail the sender and delete" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the message and any attachment from your system. Trace takes all \nreasonable precautions to ensure that no virus or defect is\ntransmitted via this e mail, however Trace accepts no responsibility for\nany virus or defect that might arise from opening this E-mail or\nattachments.\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2011-01-05T18:56:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) It's getting hard...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "+1\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 5, 2011, at 9:44 AM, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" wrote:\n...for me to tell who's looking for truth and who's just trying to win.\n\nIf you're just trying to win (and note that this is addressed to\nnobody in particular), please shut up.\n\n-- \nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D24C2EF.4010109@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-05T19:13:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) It's getting hard...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote (05-01-2011 17:44):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...for me to tell who's looking for truth and who's just trying to win.\n\nIf you're just trying to win (and note that this is addressed to\nnobody in particular), please shut up." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l, Dan'l, Dan'l! What if some people are both looking for truth and \ntrying to win?\n\n(What kind of a name is Dan'l? Looks like Teal'c.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-05T19:21:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) It's getting hard...", "in_reply_to": "<4D24C2EF.4010109@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "2011/1/5 Ant?nio Pedro Marques :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l, Dan'l, Dan'l! What if some people are both looking for truth and\ntrying to win?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose that the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive; but the\ndesire for one's theory to \"win\" tends to blind one to its flaws and\nthus makes the search for truth that much harder." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(What kind of a name is Dan'l? Looks like Teal'c.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's an American version of Daniel, used by both Dan'l Boone and Dan'l Webster." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D2518A4.9040002@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-06T01:19:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) It's getting hard...", "in_reply_to": "<4D24C2EF.4010109@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/5/2011 1:13 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote (05-01-2011 17:44):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...for me to tell who's looking for truth and who's just trying to win.\n\nIf you're just trying to win (and note that this is addressed to\nnobody in particular), please shut up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l, Dan'l, Dan'l! What if some people are both looking for truth and\ntrying to win?\n\n(What kind of a name is Dan'l? Looks like Teal'c.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You dare to mock the First Prime of Abaia?!?! Serpent guards attack!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D25B7AC.1010207@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-06T12:38:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) It's getting hard...", "in_reply_to": "<4D2518A4.9040002@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (06-01-2011 01:19):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/5/2011 1:13 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote (05-01-2011 17:44):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "...for me to tell who's looking for truth and who's just trying to win.\n\nIf you're just trying to win (and note that this is addressed to\nnobody in particular), please shut up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l, Dan'l, Dan'l! What if some people are both looking for truth and\ntrying to win?\n\n(What kind of a name is Dan'l? Looks like Teal'c.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You dare to mock the First Prime of Abaia?!?! Serpent guards attack!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Shoon't that be Eel Guards in this case?\n\nNow we know why stargates are round and there's one in Antarctica." } ] }, { "message_id": "<381320.53013.qm@smtp815.mail.ird.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2011-01-06T12:51:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) It's getting hard...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 19:21 05/01/2011, Dan'l wrote:\nI suppose that the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive; but the\ndesire for one's theory to \"win\" tends to blind one to its flaws and\nthus makes the search for truth that much harder." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is why one has to seek for truth AND penitence...\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<792239.99125.qm@web114714.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-01-06T21:30:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) It's getting hard...", "in_reply_to": "<381320.53013.qm@smtp815.mail.ird.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Mo Holkar \nAt 19:21 05/01/2011, Dan'l wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I suppose that the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive; but the\ndesire for one's theory to \"win\" tends to blind one to its flaws and\nthus makes the search for truth that much harder." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is why one has to seek for truth AND penitence..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you. List membership has its rewards.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D265398.1060904@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2011-01-06T23:43:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dan'l! (was: Re: It's getting hard...)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 05/01/11 17:44, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n...for me to tell who's looking for truth and who's just trying to win.\n\nIf you're just trying to win (and note that this is addressed to\nnobody in particular), please shut up.\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Have had to shut up for a week or so for reasons unconnected to the \nlist, but have to say Dan'l, I have some sympathy with your frustration. \nThis isn't a competition ... is it? if it *is*, I think potential \nlistmembers need some kind of heads up before they join :) All I ever \nwanted to do here was to bounce ideas off other Sun-cycle mavens. Some \nof the 'tudes I've seen, whether in discussion I've participated in, or \nin catching-up time (of which I have a great deal to do most times given \npersonal cirx) suggest some on here do actually regard this listserv as \na competition. One or two even seem to think that there is some ultimate \nreligious truth in question here.\n\nHow anyone can think they are 'right' when discussing the literary work \nof a writer who does not choose to participate himself in these \ndiscussions is completely beyond me. GW is over eighty and so successful \nas a writer that he doesn't need any of this stuff; he's definitely not \ngoing to tell us word for word what is what. Given that - and I don't \nthink that's a stretch - what any of us think is as likely to be \nplausible / interesting as what any other thinks. And regarding the \n'religion' aspect, it's plain to me that some have forgotten that what \nwe are discussing here is a work, or works, of fiction; not a set of \ntexts competing, as at the Council of Nicea, for canonical status.\n\njd" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D265BF2.1060204@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2011-01-07T00:18:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Good one Mo (was: Re: It's getting hard...)", "in_reply_to": "<381320.53013.qm@smtp815.mail.ird.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 06/01/11 12:51, Mo Holkar wrote:\nAt 19:21 05/01/2011, Dan'l wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I suppose that the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive; but the\ndesire for one's theory to \"win\" tends to blind one to its flaws and\nthus makes the search for truth that much harder." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is why one has to seek for truth AND penitence..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "+1\n\njd" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-07T16:54:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dan'l! (was: Re: It's getting hard...)", "in_reply_to": "<4D265398.1060904@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jane Delawney\" \nHave had to shut up for a week or so for reasons unconnected to the list, \nbut have to say Dan'l, I have some sympathy with your frustration. This \nisn't a competition ... is it? if it *is*, I think potential listmembers \nneed some kind of heads up before they join :) All I ever wanted to do \nhere was to bounce ideas off other Sun-cycle mavens. Some of the 'tudes \nI've seen, whether in discussion I've participated in, or in catching-up \ntime (of which I have a great deal to do most times given personal cirx) \nsuggest some on here do actually regard this listserv as a competition. \nOne or two even seem to think that there is some ultimate religious truth \nin question here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When you say 'bounce ideas' do you just mean post ideas, no matter how \nwacky, and that evidence against those ideas is unwelcome?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How anyone can think they are 'right' when discussing the literary work of \na writer who does not choose to participate himself in these discussions \nis completely beyond me. GW is over eighty and so successful as a writer \nthat he doesn't need any of this stuff; he's definitely not going to tell \nus word for word what is what. Given that - and I don't think that's a \nstretch - what any of us think is as likely to be plausible / interesting \nas what any other thinks. And regarding the 'religion' aspect, it's plain \nto me that some have forgotten that what we are discussing here is a work, \nor works, of fiction; not a set of texts competing, as at the Council of \nNicea, for canonical status." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe's books are not, of course, detective stories, or not only detective \nstories. And even detective stories may have lacunae unnoticed by the \nauthor, or in some cases may have been written in a spirit of perversity \nsuch that the number of valid solutions is either less than or greater than \none.\n\nNeverthess, surely you agree that some readings must be better than others? \nFor example readings of 5HoC or BotNS involving the Daleks as a major plot \ndevice are probably of less worth than readings for which it is easier to \nfind support in the text.\n\nIt's not a question of religion. It's a question of trying to find the best \nreading, or perhaps readingss. This won't be done without flagging problems \nwith readings, and, as we all know, it's easier to spot problems with other \npeople's readings than with our own. And it's easier for the oroiginator of \nan idea to find ways around those problems. Even if this is moticated in \npart by competitive instincts, the same might be said of most human \nachievement. [If we are competitive, we should obey the rules of the game; \nwhich include not attempting to silence others by intimidation or other \nmeans, and not attempting to trap them, or hide arguments that would help \ntheir case.]\n\nSure, Wolfe doesn't usually explain (and even when he does I would say the \nwords in the text are more authoritative than the words of the author). \nThat doesn't mean that there are not good ideas, questionable ideas, and \nideas that are totally out to lunch. Don't we care which are which?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3610ABF5-79DE-4AF3-8A76-CF11F1009F51@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2011-01-07T17:32:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dan'l! (was: Re: It's getting hard...)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like to think that there are people on this list who are smarter than me and who have a deep knowledge of book text.\n\nSo if a passage about Agia hitting her head on the floor and it sounding like a hammer tapping stone, and I'd like to see if anyone she might be a robotic poppet, and if they may have any other insights one way or the other, then YES I guess I subscribed to bounce ideas whacky or substantial (ideally both).\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 7, 2011, at 8:54 AM, \"Gerry Quinn\" wrote:\nWhen you say 'bounce ideas' do you just mean post ideas, no matter how wacky, and that evidence against those ideas is unwelcome?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<56E63F74-5B2A-411E-A138-627906E2DCB7@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2011-01-07T17:48:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dan'l! (was: Re: It's getting hard...)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 7, 2011, at 8:54 AM, \"Gerry Quinn\" wrote:\nSure, Wolfe doesn't usually explain (and even when he does I would say the words in the text are more authoritative than the words of the author). That doesn't mean that there are not good ideas, questionable ideas, and ideas that are totally out to lunch. Don't we care which are which?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I certainly agree with that.\nPeople can get so invested with their theories that they hold onto them well past their breaking points out of pride I guess. Thats when things seem to veer off into the meta-critique of each others' take on interpreting literature, which gets pretty boring, IMO. \n\nWe ALL know in our hearts that not every reading is valid. People glom onto one thing, start guessing, then forget that something might contradict. I come here because I want to find a certain concensus about the PLOT, and then to explore the crazy IDEAS in the plot. I LOVE Lee and Marc's gestalt ideas. Such far out stuff. I love Gerry and Roy's parsing abilities. \n\nCan't we all just get along, suck it up and accept that THEORIES ARE MEANT TO BE PRODDED? They only become really valid when you can't prove them wrong.\n\n(I'm pretty sure my friend's theory that the characters of LOST were all actually delivered into Hell at the end, despite the fact that everyone thinks they went to Heaven hasn't been knocked down yet, though people sure try. This theory is the only way that show is redeemed in my eyes.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-07T18:49:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dan'l! (was: Re: It's getting hard...)", "in_reply_to": "<56E63F74-5B2A-411E-A138-627906E2DCB7@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When you say 'bounce ideas' do you just mean post ideas, no matter how wacky" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn: So if a passage about Agia hitting her head on the floor and it sounding like a hammer \ntapping stone..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHah! Excellent riff on the \"bounce\" metaphor Ryan!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: That doesn't mean that there are not good ideas, questionable ideas, and ideas that are totally out \nto lunch. Don't we care which are which?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son O' Witz: I certainly agree with that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not me. Gerry used the example of an apparently insane theory which involved Daleks to make his point. The thing is, \nnobody here (currently) does anything like that. As an example, Ryan's observation regarding Agia's head comes straight \nfrom the text. Robots are found in the text. Ryan connects them in a way that makes sense to him. If it doesn't make \nsense to you, what does that prove? That Ryan is stupid or insane? That we need to take a vote?\n \nAs Jane says, this is fiction! It is not possible for there to be a \"right\" answer. There is no objective reality\nto measure. Ideas are not found in dots on a page or screen. Ideas are not floating around in the aether either. They \nONLY to be found as neural patterns in each human being's brain. And as long as one intelligent, sane person has a certain \nidea, that idea has validity.\n \nIt could be argued that Gerry's dismissal of a theory is itself a theory. And that his theory has validity. And it does!\nBut, by Gerry's own philosophy, all theories need to be challenged. Judge not, lest ye be judged?\n \nThe truth is we waste time challenging only the theories that bother us. Neglected is the self-analysis- \"why does this \nbother me?\" Some interesting truths will emerge if we answer this question honestly (answer only to ourselves, please- \nwe don't need any Dr. Phil confessional crap in here ;- ) )\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-07T18:59:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dan'l! (was: Re: It's getting hard...)", "in_reply_to": "<56E63F74-5B2A-411E-A138-627906E2DCB7@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Son of Witz\" \nCan't we all just get along, suck it up and accept that THEORIES ARE MEANT \nTO BE PRODDED? They only become really valid when you can't prove them \nwrong.\n\n(I'm pretty sure my friend's theory that the characters of LOST were all \nactually delivered into Hell at the end, despite the fact that everyone \nthinks they went to Heaven hasn't been knocked down yet, though people \nsure try. This theory is the only way that show is redeemed in my eyes.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An ironic form of redemption! (But now you've got me thinking about \nEastenders...)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0CC0A824-0203-40B6-9B39-2DC59D432FB0@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2011-01-07T19:29:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dan'l! (was: Re: It's getting hard...)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 7, 2011, at 10:49 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When you say 'bounce ideas' do you just mean post ideas, no matter how wacky" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ryan Dunn: So if a passage about Agia hitting her head on the floor and it sounding like a hammer \ntapping stone..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hah! Excellent riff on the \"bounce\" metaphor Ryan!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: That doesn't mean that there are not good ideas, questionable ideas, and ideas that are totally out \nto lunch. Don't we care which are which?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Son O' Witz: I certainly agree with that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not me. Gerry used the example of an apparently insane theory which involved Daleks to make his point. The thing is, \nnobody here (currently) does anything like that. As an example, Ryan's observation regarding Agia's head comes straight \nfrom the text. Robots are found in the text. Ryan connects them in a way that makes sense to him. If it doesn't make \nsense to you, what does that prove? That Ryan is stupid or insane? That we need to take a vote?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Look, I understand there is no objective truth in fiction, and I like far out ideas.\nI agree the Dalek example goes past what people do here. I don't think Ryan's question is too wacky. No one really gets Agia. \n\nBUT, if you're going to say Green is Lune, you are just wrong, the idea has been shown to hold no water. " } ] } ] }