{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5876", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5876, "subject": "Another (Possibly Weak) Theory", "messages": 8, "voices": 4, "first": "2011-01-06T21:12:30+00:00", "last": "2011-01-09T04:15:37+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-06T21:12:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Another (Possibly Weak) Theory", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nGood work on the timeline Gerry! You deserve praise for it. Still I\nthink it covers only the known colonization of the planets. It\nmisses something important. As I've already suggested in\nanother post, the text suggests that there was a much earlier\ncrash on Ste. Anne. perhaps with a single human survivor\n(or even corpse?). This happened, as the McCaffrey-Wolfe\nquote suggests, in the distant past of the planet, not a\ncouple hundred years previous to the Marsch events." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is my current working hypothesis, for which I do not\nhave a real timeline: my mind doesn't work in such an\norganized manner. But roughly I am thinking of Wolfe's\nclaim to believe that many \"mythological\" beings are real.\n\nSo let's look at a Very Very Long Time Ago, in a place\nthat has no name in English but which we might call\nAtlantis, Mu, or Gondwanaland. There was a race,\nwhich was not precisely what we would call _human_,\nthat developed, among other things, the ability to\ntravel to the stars, not necessarily with the aid of\n\"starcrosser\" technology. (See, for example, Peter\nHamilton's \"Silfen.\") We might have called them\nelves, or faerie.\n\nA Very Very Long Time Ago, their culture was\ncompletely(?) wiped out, possibly by a massive\ntectonic event. But some of them were left on\nSte. Anne.\n\nI haven't quite decided to my satisfaction what\nhappened next: either they _became_ the shape-\nchanging abos, or they were imitated _by_ them.\n\nAny suggestions to \"plump out\" this theory would\nbe appreciated." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-06T21:31:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Another (Possibly Weak) Theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes:But roughly I am thinking of Wolfe's claim to believe that many \"mythological\" beings are \nreal.So let's look at a Very Very Long Time Ago, in a place that has no name in English but which we might call\nAtlantis, Mu, or Gondwanaland. There was a race, which was not precisely what we would call _human_,\nthat developed, among other things, the ability to travel to the stars, not necessarily with the aid of \n\"starcrosser\" technology. (See, for example, Peter Hamilton's \"Silfen.\") We might have called them elves, \nor faerie. A Very Very Long Time Ago, their culture was completely(?) wiped out, possibly by a massive\ntectonic event. But some of them were left on Ste. Anne." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nA very good theory, in my opinion. I think David S. must agree since he suggested something similar\nrecently. I like it especially because it relates both to WOlfe's professed beliefs and to his other works.\n \nMy contribution to plump it out would be this: Many have noted the similarities between Shadow Children and\nInhumi. In the earlier days of vampire myths, the lamia (deriveed from Lillith/Jahi myths). were associated\nas much with child-stealing as with blood sucking. Faeries (and kelpies and other Wolfe references) are also\nknown for child-stealing. For me this takes a thread of connection between 5HoC and Short Sun and plumps it\nout to a nice fat piece of string. :- ).\n \n(the faerie-child stealing stuff may well relate to anthropology..ancient memories of H. habilus and \nH. erectus interactions, perhaps. Differences in tool using ability surely come into play also, a fact\nWolfe had to be aware of).\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-06T21:39:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Another (Possibly Weak) Theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 1:31 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nA very good theory, in my opinion. I think David S. must agree since\nhe suggested something similar recently." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David: If you did, I missed it; I've been skimming a lot recently. My apologies." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My contribution to plump it out would be this: Many have noted the\nsimilarities between Shadow Children and Inhumi." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Shapechangers from the green planet, yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the earlier days of vampire myths, the lamia (deriveed\nfrom Lillith/Jahi myths). were associated as much with\nchild-stealing as with blood sucking. Faeries (and kelpies\nand other Wolfe references) are also known for child-stealing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, this is where it gets interesting: the faerie don't\njust _steal_ children: they _replace_ them with changelings.\nAnd so we get to at least a weak form of Veil's Hypothesis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(the faerie-child stealing stuff may well relate to anthropology\n..ancient memories of H. habilus and H. erectus interactions,\nperhaps." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "H'mmmm. I am extremely dubious about \"racial memory\"\ntheories, but will mull on this." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<717795.76537.qm@web84108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-01-06T21:58:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Another (Possibly Weak) Theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Would this explain the green eyes? That is, to the extent that these people also evolved from primates on Earth as we did, they are human, but they are physically marked as another race?\nI personally accept the recent-lost-colony origin hypothesis, but I can see how the ancient-lost-colony hypothesis fits some of Wolfe's favorite themes, including the near-repetition of events over cosmic stretches of time. And the Shee (if I may call them that), if they survived on Earth (as they must have done to be real at all, because otherwise humans would not know them), were very interested in hiding themselves from men, using magic to do so. Their descendants might well have psychic star-shields.\nIs there a way in which the recent-origin hypothesis can be reconciled with the ancient-origin hypothesis? Can both be true? The Shee were not exactly tool-users to begin with, even on Earth. Of course, if we are expected to know that, then the links to them may simply be by analogy.\n\n--- On Thu, 1/6/11, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nSubject: (urth) Another (Possibly Weak) Theory\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, January 6, 2011, 4:12 PM\n\n\n\nSo let's look at a Very Very Long Time Ago, in a place\nthat has no name in English but which we might call\nAtlantis, Mu, or Gondwanaland. There was a race,\nwhich was not precisely what we would call _human_,\nthat developed, among other things, the ability to\ntravel to the stars, not necessarily with the aid of\n\"starcrosser\" technology. (See, for example, Peter\nHamilton's \"Silfen.\")? We might have called them\nelves, or faerie.\n\nA Very Very Long Time Ago, their culture was\ncompletely(?) wiped out, possibly by a massive\ntectonic event. But some of them were left on\nSte. Anne.\n\nI haven't quite decided to my satisfaction what\nhappened next: either they _became_ the shape-\nchanging abos, or they were imitated _by_ them.\n\nAny suggestions to \"plump out\" this theory would\nbe appreciated." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<71363.60608.qm@web84103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-01-06T22:09:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Another (Possibly Weak) Theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, no problem. I am very much on the fence and can't keep abos and Shadow Children straight any more than I can keep the various Hiero-dudes straight.\nI'd note that \"racial memory\" memes once were very popular and seem to be indirectly played on here---someone mentioned the Dogons. Also, Sandwalker always reminded me of an Australian aborigine, so the Dreamtime (very long time ago) is not a stretch “for me. And Australian aborigines came from Africa as much as India. Fairies are often pale and blond, but before that, they were brown.\nThere really are strong hints of the Shee as interstellar travellers. But then, in our real world, there are also \"memories\" of their existence. Yet, they are not actually real outside those stories! So what does this say about the Gondwanaland hypothesis”\nIt's maddening.\n--- On Thu, 1/6/11, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nSubject: Re: (urth) Another (Possibly Weak) Theory\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, January 6, 2011, 4:39 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 1:31 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nA very good theory, in my opinion. I think David S. must agree since\nhe suggested something similar recently." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David: If you did, I missed it; I've been skimming a lot recently. My apologies." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My contribution to plump it out would be this: Many have noted the\nsimilarities between Shadow Children and Inhumi." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Shapechangers from the green planet, yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the earlier days of vampire myths, the lamia (deriveed\nfrom Lillith/Jahi myths). were associated as much with\nchild-stealing as with blood sucking. Faeries (and kelpies\nand other Wolfe references) are also known for child-stealing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, this is where it gets interesting: the faerie don't\njust _steal_ children: they _replace_ them with changelings.\nAnd so we get to at least a weak form of Veil's Hypothesis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(the faerie-child stealing stuff may well relate to anthropology\n..ancient memories of H. habilus and H. erectus interactions,\nperhaps." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "H'mmmm. I am extremely dubious about \"racial memory\"\ntheories, but will mull on this." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-06T23:37:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Another (Possibly Weak) Theory", "in_reply_to": "<717795.76537.qm@web84108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nWould this explain the green eyes? That is, to the extent that these people\nalso evolved from primates on Earth as we did, they are human, but they are\nphysically marked as another race?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That makes sense to me.\n\nI personally accept the recent-lost-colony origin hypothesis, but I can see" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "how the ancient-lost-colony hypothesis fits some of Wolfe's favorite themes,\nincluding the near-repetition of events over cosmic stretches of time. And\nthe Shee (if I may call them that), if they survived on Earth (as they must\nhave done to be real at all, because otherwise humans would not know them),\nwere very interested in hiding themselves from men, using magic to do so.\nTheir descendants might well have psychic star-shields." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you want to call them the Sidhe, I have no problem with that. And I\nhadn't thought about the connection to the psychic shield -- that adds some\nweight." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is there a way in which the recent-origin hypothesis can be reconciled with\nthe ancient-origin hypothesis? Can both be true?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure: the Abos are the Sidhe, the Shadow-Children are the recent-origin\nex-humans. Or vice versa." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Shee were not exactly tool-users to begin with, even on Earth. Of\ncourse, if we are expected to know that, then the links to them may simply\nbe by analogy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "H'mmmm. And the non-use of tools fits in with the Sidhe's aversion to \"cold\niron.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D26698C.1040402@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-01-07T01:17:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Another (Possibly Weak) Theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/6/2011 6:37 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nDAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n\n\n Is there a way in which the recent-origin hypothesis can be\n reconciled with the ancient-origin hypothesis? Can both be true?\n\n\nSure: the Abos are the Sidhe, the Shadow-Children are the \nrecent-origin ex-humans. Or vice versa." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly. It's one or the other!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " The Shee were not exactly tool-users to begin with, even on Earth.\n Of course, if we are expected to know that, then the links to them\n may simply be by analogy.\n\n\nH'mmmm. And the non-use of tools fits in with the Sidhe's aversion to \n\"cold iron.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yep." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-- \nDan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-09T04:15:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Another (Possibly Weak) Theory", "in_reply_to": "<71363.60608.qm@web84103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 6 de Jan de 2011, ?s 22:09, DAVID STOCKHOFF escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, Sandwalker always reminded me of an Australian aborigine, so the Dreamtime (very long time ago) is not a stretch" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In non-literate cultures, anything older than one's grandfather belongs to the Age of Myth. In fact, the odds are that if the Story were more than a few centuries old, it would have been forgotten or unrecognisable. For all I know, that settles it. " } ] } ] }