# Another (Possibly Weak) Theory *The Urth list — 8 messages, 4 voices, 06 Jan 2011* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *06 Jan 2011, 21:12* > Lee Berman wrote: > Good work on the timeline Gerry! You deserve praise for it. Still I > think it covers only the known colonization of the planets. It > misses something important. As I've already suggested in > another post, the text suggests that there was a much earlier > crash on Ste. Anne. perhaps with a single human survivor > (or even corpse?). This happened, as the McCaffrey-Wolfe > quote suggests, in the distant past of the planet, not a > couple hundred years previous to the Marsch events. That is my current working hypothesis, for which I do not have a real timeline: my mind doesn't work in such an organized manner. But roughly I am thinking of Wolfe's claim to believe that many "mythological" beings are real. So let's look at a Very Very Long Time Ago, in a place that has no name in English but which we might call Atlantis, Mu, or Gondwanaland. There was a race, which was not precisely what we would call _human_, that developed, among other things, the ability to travel to the stars, not necessarily with the aid of "starcrosser" technology. (See, for example, Peter Hamilton's "Silfen.") We might have called them elves, or faerie. A Very Very Long Time Ago, their culture was completely(?) wiped out, possibly by a massive tectonic event. But some of them were left on Ste. Anne. I haven't quite decided to my satisfaction what happened next: either they _became_ the shape- changing abos, or they were imitated _by_ them. Any suggestions to "plump out" this theory would be appreciated. ``` Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ``` --- ### Lee Berman *06 Jan 2011, 21:31 · follows Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* > Dan'l Danehy-Oakes:But roughly I am thinking of Wolfe's claim to believe that many "mythological" beings are > real.So let's look at a Very Very Long Time Ago, in a place that has no name in English but which we might call > Atlantis, Mu, or Gondwanaland. There was a race, which was not precisely what we would call _human_, > that developed, among other things, the ability to travel to the stars, not necessarily with the aid of > "starcrosser" technology. (See, for example, Peter Hamilton's "Silfen.") We might have called them elves, > or faerie. A Very Very Long Time Ago, their culture was completely(?) wiped out, possibly by a massive > tectonic event. But some of them were left on Ste. Anne. A very good theory, in my opinion. I think David S. must agree since he suggested something similar recently. I like it especially because it relates both to WOlfe's professed beliefs and to his other works. My contribution to plump it out would be this: Many have noted the similarities between Shadow Children and Inhumi. In the earlier days of vampire myths, the lamia (deriveed from Lillith/Jahi myths). were associated as much with child-stealing as with blood sucking. Faeries (and kelpies and other Wolfe references) are also known for child-stealing. For me this takes a thread of connection between 5HoC and Short Sun and plumps it out to a nice fat piece of string. :- ). (the faerie-child stealing stuff may well relate to anthropology..ancient memories of H. habilus and H. erectus interactions, perhaps. Differences in tool using ability surely come into play also, a fact Wolfe had to be aware of). --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *06 Jan 2011, 21:39 · in reply to Lee Berman* > On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 1:31 PM, Lee Berman wrote: > A very good theory, in my opinion. I think David S. must agree since > he suggested something similar recently. David: If you did, I missed it; I've been skimming a lot recently. My apologies. > My contribution to plump it out would be this: Many have noted the > similarities between Shadow Children and Inhumi. Shapechangers from the green planet, yes. > In the earlier days of vampire myths, the lamia (deriveed > from Lillith/Jahi myths). were associated as much with > child-stealing as with blood sucking. Faeries (and kelpies > and other Wolfe references) are also known for child-stealing. Actually, this is where it gets interesting: the faerie don't just _steal_ children: they _replace_ them with changelings. And so we get to at least a weak form of Veil's Hypothesis. > (the faerie-child stealing stuff may well relate to anthropology > ..ancient memories of H. habilus and H. erectus interactions, > perhaps. H'mmmm. I am extremely dubious about "racial memory" theories, but will mull on this. ``` Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ``` --- ### DAVID STOCKHOFF *06 Jan 2011, 21:58 · in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* Would this explain the green eyes? That is, to the extent that these people also evolved from primates on Earth as we did, they are human, but they are physically marked as another race? I personally accept the recent-lost-colony origin hypothesis, but I can see how the ancient-lost-colony hypothesis fits some of Wolfe's favorite themes, including the near-repetition of events over cosmic stretches of time. And the Shee (if I may call them that), if they survived on Earth (as they must have done to be real at all, because otherwise humans would not know them), were very interested in hiding themselves from men, using magic to do so. Their descendants might well have psychic star-shields. Is there a way in which the recent-origin hypothesis can be reconciled with the ancient-origin hypothesis? Can both be true? The Shee were not exactly tool-users to begin with, even on Earth. Of course, if we are expected to know that, then the links to them may simply be by analogy. --- On Thu, 1/6/11, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes Subject: (urth) Another (Possibly Weak) Theory To: "The Urth Mailing List" Date: Thursday, January 6, 2011, 4:12 PM So let's look at a Very Very Long Time Ago, in a place that has no name in English but which we might call Atlantis, Mu, or Gondwanaland. There was a race, which was not precisely what we would call _human_, that developed, among other things, the ability to travel to the stars, not necessarily with the aid of "starcrosser" technology. (See, for example, Peter Hamilton's "Silfen.")? We might have called them elves, or faerie. A Very Very Long Time Ago, their culture was completely(?) wiped out, possibly by a massive tectonic event. But some of them were left on Ste. Anne. I haven't quite decided to my satisfaction what happened next: either they _became_ the shape- changing abos, or they were imitated _by_ them. Any suggestions to "plump out" this theory would be appreciated. ``` Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ``` --- ### DAVID STOCKHOFF *06 Jan 2011, 22:09 · in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* Oh, no problem. I am very much on the fence and can't keep abos and Shadow Children straight any more than I can keep the various Hiero-dudes straight. I'd note that "racial memory" memes once were very popular and seem to be indirectly played on here---someone mentioned the Dogons. Also, Sandwalker always reminded me of an Australian aborigine, so the Dreamtime (very long time ago) is not a stretch “for me. And Australian aborigines came from Africa as much as India. Fairies are often pale and blond, but before that, they were brown. There really are strong hints of the Shee as interstellar travellers. But then, in our real world, there are also "memories" of their existence. Yet, they are not actually real outside those stories! So what does this say about the Gondwanaland hypothesis” It's maddening. --- On Thu, 1/6/11, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes Subject: Re: (urth) Another (Possibly Weak) Theory To: "The Urth Mailing List" Date: Thursday, January 6, 2011, 4:39 PM > On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 1:31 PM, Lee Berman wrote: > A very good theory, in my opinion. I think David S. must agree since > he suggested something similar recently. David: If you did, I missed it; I've been skimming a lot recently. My apologies. > My contribution to plump it out would be this: Many have noted the > similarities between Shadow Children and Inhumi. Shapechangers from the green planet, yes. > In the earlier days of vampire myths, the lamia (deriveed > from Lillith/Jahi myths). were associated as much with > child-stealing as with blood sucking. Faeries (and kelpies > and other Wolfe references) are also known for child-stealing. Actually, this is where it gets interesting: the faerie don't just _steal_ children: they _replace_ them with changelings. And so we get to at least a weak form of Veil's Hypothesis. > (the faerie-child stealing stuff may well relate to anthropology > ..ancient memories of H. habilus and H. erectus interactions, > perhaps. H'mmmm. I am extremely dubious about "racial memory" theories, but will mull on this. ``` Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ``` --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *06 Jan 2011, 23:37 · in reply to DAVID STOCKHOFF* > DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote: > Would this explain the green eyes? That is, to the extent that these people > also evolved from primates on Earth as we did, they are human, but they are > physically marked as another race? That makes sense to me. I personally accept the recent-lost-colony origin hypothesis, but I can see > how the ancient-lost-colony hypothesis fits some of Wolfe's favorite themes, > including the near-repetition of events over cosmic stretches of time. And > the Shee (if I may call them that), if they survived on Earth (as they must > have done to be real at all, because otherwise humans would not know them), > were very interested in hiding themselves from men, using magic to do so. > Their descendants might well have psychic star-shields. If you want to call them the Sidhe, I have no problem with that. And I hadn't thought about the connection to the psychic shield -- that adds some weight. > Is there a way in which the recent-origin hypothesis can be reconciled with > the ancient-origin hypothesis? Can both be true? Sure: the Abos are the Sidhe, the Shadow-Children are the recent-origin ex-humans. Or vice versa. > The Shee were not exactly tool-users to begin with, even on Earth. Of > course, if we are expected to know that, then the links to them may simply > be by analogy. H'mmmm. And the non-use of tools fits in with the Sidhe's aversion to "cold iron." ``` Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ``` --- ### David Stockhoff *07 Jan 2011, 01:17 · in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* > On 1/6/2011 6:37 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote: > > > Is there a way in which the recent-origin hypothesis can be > reconciled with the ancient-origin hypothesis? Can both be true? > > > Sure: the Abos are the Sidhe, the Shadow-Children are the > recent-origin ex-humans. Or vice versa. Exactly. It's one or the other! > The Shee were not exactly tool-users to begin with, even on Earth. > Of course, if we are expected to know that, then the links to them > may simply be by analogy. > > > H'mmmm. And the non-use of tools fits in with the Sidhe's aversion to > "cold iron." Yep. > -- > Dan'l Danehy-Oakes --- ### António Pedro Marques *09 Jan 2011, 04:15 · in reply to DAVID STOCKHOFF* No dia 6 de Jan de 2011, ?s 22:09, DAVID STOCKHOFF escreveu: > Also, Sandwalker always reminded me of an Australian aborigine, so the Dreamtime (very long time ago) is not a stretch In non-literate cultures, anything older than one's grandfather belongs to the Age of Myth. In fact, the odds are that if the Story were more than a few centuries old, it would have been forgotten or unrecognisable. For all I know, that settles it. ---