{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5879", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5879, "subject": "Recent human crash-landing on St Anne", "messages": 6, "voices": 5, "first": "2011-01-07T13:28:08+00:00", "last": "2011-01-09T04:23:15+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2011-01-07T13:28:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Recent human crash-landing on St Anne", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(See? I can do new subject headings, if that's what people want. :-) )\n\nSome problems with this line of reasoning.\n\nFirstly, there *is* no recently-lost spaceship in the text. You have\nto invent one out of whole cloth. Yes, you can say all records of such\na ship were conveniently lost, but you can say that about any fact\ninvented to support any theory. For example: I think the Annese grew\ntree-circle observatories for thousands of years. We don't have any\nrecord of them because, hey, they rotted, which Marsch actually says\nis happening to the current observatory. If we can have missing recent\nspaceships we can have missing ancient tree-circles.\n\nAlso, Marsch never entertains the idea of a recent crash. He's the one\nactually living in this future, he knows better than us what's\nfeasible and what isn't. He muses that the Annese could *almost* be\nthe descendants of \"an earlier wave of colonisation\", but he never\nconsiders that they could be the descendants of a missing ship from\nthe *current* wave of human colonisation. If it was possible for St\nAnne to have been colonised by a ship that crashed a couple of hundred\nyears ago - even some ship he has never heard of - this would be the\nmoment for Wolfe to make him consider it. He doesn't.\n\nAnd again, Dollo's Law. Taken at face value, it explains why VRT is\nphysically unable to hold a pen the usual way. We have the answer to a\npuzzle. If we say VRT is actually an alien (who for no good reason can\nonly learn to hold a pen the wrong way), suddenly the evoking of\nDollo's Law needs an explanation too.\n\n\nAnother problem, which I think we all need to consider in constructing\n5HoC theories, is that VRT is supposed to be a half-abo. He certainly\nthinks he is. He has less of his mother's ability to change how he\nlooks, but more ability to dress himself, cook and write. If abos\nbreeding with humans doesn't suit your theory, sure, you can invent\nreasons why he only thinks he is half-abo, but I'd put more faith in a\ntheory where you don't have to." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-07T14:05:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Recent human crash-landing on St Anne", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tony Ellis: Another problem, which I think we all need to consider in constructing\n5HoC theories, is that VRT is supposed to be a half-abo. He certainlythinks he is. He \nhas less of his mother's ability to change how he looks, but more ability to dress himself, \ncook and write. If abos breeding with humans doesn't suit your theory, sure, you can invent\nreasons why he only thinks he is half-abo." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nTony first, I hope to clarify that your theory is that while Shadow Children are aliens, you \npropose that abos are fully (in descent as well as appearance) human. Yes?\n \nMy own interpretation is that Shadow Children and abos are both imitations of humans and not\na product of earth. The individual bits of evidence seem contradictory (or we wouldn't be\nhaving this discussion). So I'd like to step back and attempt to look at the problem from a\nbroader perspective.\n \nI think all can agree that the first portion of this novel is meant to force us to question our\nideas of family and kinship by presenting us with a family of clones. I think the questions \nregarding identity and relationsips which are raised actually prepare us for even more obtuse\nquestions raised in the next two sections.\n \nPerhaps we can agree that whatever the imitative species native to Ste. Anne are, it is not in \ntheir basic nature to reproduce sexually. So when we hear the Shadow Children's words about \ntheir \"family\" it doesn't quite make sense to us.\n \nIf, as I tend to think, abos are also alien, imitative creatures, when we read the words of VRT\nor interviewees on Ste. Anne what we are hearing is the attempts of an imitative asexually \nreproducing creature to describe their situation in terms of their current, sexually reproducing \nguise of human.\n \nWhat I'm saying is that when we hear about VRT's \"mother\" or him being \"half-abo\", it doesn't \nactually mean what we sexually reproducing non-imitative beings think it means. For such beings,\nbeing \"half-abo\" might have nothing to do with genetic ancestry but rather a level of imitation\ncurrently achieved.\n \n(FWIW I think Wolfe addresses similar issues in BotNS. In Thecla and Thea we have \"half-sisters\"\nthe relationship unexplained. But surely it means something. This is a society in which\ncloning occurs but is not mentioned in polite conversation. I think we can detect it from names \ngiven- a clone gets a name which is a derivation of the source. Carina-Catherine, Pelagia-Pega and\nperhaps a couple others. If Borski was to get anything from his \"onomastics\" he should have gotten\nthis one. But he didn't. Hah! ;- ) ) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D2723E4.7030707@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-01-07T14:32:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Recent human crash-landing on St Anne", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this could be a very good accounting for how the tree-ring \ndating theory, while sound, may be a misdirection. We know an extant \nring is a century old; we can also guess that it could survive to be 300 \nor 500 if it had been left alone. There don't need to be much more than \n20 such to cover 10,000 years of \"observation.\"\n\nAnother pro of this explanation is that these rings are called \nobservatories, which makes us think of Stonehenge, which is a couple \nthousand years old, and which is stone. Whereas stone can survive, trees \ncan't, but if anything, that implies they are older still, not younger.\n\nThe Wolfean narrative principle employed here seems to be implied \nrepetition to hide/reveal vast stretches of time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/7/2011 8:28 AM, Tony Ellis wrote:\nFirstly, there*is* no recently-lost spaceship in the text. You have\nto invent one out of whole cloth. Yes, you can say all records of such\na ship were conveniently lost, but you can say that about any fact\ninvented to support any theory. For example: I think the Annese grew\ntree-circle observatories for thousands of years. We don't have any\nrecord of them because, hey, they rotted, which Marsch actually says\nis happening to the current observatory. If we can have missing recent\nspaceships we can have missing ancient tree-circles." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-07T18:34:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Recent human crash-landing on St Anne", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Tony Ellis\" \nSome problems with this line of reasoning.\n\nFirstly, there *is* no recently-lost spaceship in the text. You have\nto invent one out of whole cloth. Yes, you can say all records of such\na ship were conveniently lost, but you can say that about any fact\ninvented to support any theory. For example: I think the Annese grew\ntree-circle observatories for thousands of years. We don't have any\nrecord of them because, hey, they rotted, which Marsch actually says\nis happening to the current observatory. If we can have missing recent\nspaceships we can have missing ancient tree-circles." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We know that in recent history there has been a scramble for colonies and a \nvicious war between colonial powers. We know that there is no direct \ncommunication with Earth. In such a universe, a lost ship is no stretch at \nall.\n\nThe missing trees are more difficult - maybe the old trees rot, but when \nexactly do you plant new ones, and where? In the same places or somewhere \nelse? Surely it would be easier to build a new observatory than to renew \nthe old one?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, Marsch never entertains the idea of a recent crash. He's the one\nactually living in this future, he knows better than us what's\nfeasible and what isn't. He muses that the Annese could *almost* be\nthe descendants of \"an earlier wave of colonisation\", but he never\nconsiders that they could be the descendants of a missing ship from\nthe *current* wave of human colonisation. If it was possible for St\nAnne to have been colonised by a ship that crashed a couple of hundred\nyears ago - even some ship he has never heard of - this would be the\nmoment for Wolfe to make him consider it. He doesn't." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marsch is represented as a bit of an idiot. Besides, as I've said before, \nthe soloutions to puzzles should not generally be put in the mouths of \ncharacters, except in certain fairly definable circumstances." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And again, Dollo's Law. Taken at face value, it explains why VRT is\nphysically unable to hold a pen the usual way. We have the answer to a\npuzzle. If we say VRT is actually an alien (who for no good reason can\nonly learn to hold a pen the wrong way), suddenly the evoking of\nDollo's Law needs an explanation too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree it works well with the ancient humans model. It works okay as an \nanalogy, though, in the alien imitator model, and that's all VRT says it is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another problem, which I think we all need to consider in constructing\n5HoC theories, is that VRT is supposed to be a half-abo. He certainly\nthinks he is. He has less of his mother's ability to change how he\nlooks, but more ability to dress himself, cook and write. If abos\nbreeding with humans doesn't suit your theory, sure, you can invent\nreasons why he only thinks he is half-abo, but I'd put more faith in a\ntheory where you don't have to." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As an advocate of the alien imitator theory, I am not too hung up on whether \nbreeding is possible or not, because Wolfe is not writing hard SF. However, \nit's quite in accordance with the story that they don't interbreed (the \ncuckoo hypothesis in the case of characters like VRT).\n\nHow do you know how VRT's abilities compare with those of his mother? If \nshapechanging is an ability of the ancient humans (for reasons that need to \nbe explained) he does rather well with it, substituting for a professional \nman from Earth and getting away with it for quite some time (he was unlucky \nto be caught). His mother did not pull off any coup of this sort.\n\nI don't know if he thinks he is genetically the son of his apparent father - \ndoes he indicate this anywhere?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2011-01-07T21:06:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Recent human crash-landing on St Anne", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nTony first, I hope to clarify that your theory is that while Shadow Children are aliens, you\npropose that abos are fully (in descent as well as appearance) human. Yes?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is possibly a bit redundant now, but: yes." } ] }, { "message_id": "<18199A20-D447-49BB-8131-FC70C90BC49B@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-09T04:23:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Recent human crash-landing on St Anne", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 7 de Jan de 2011, ?s 18:34, \"Gerry Quinn\" escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe is not writing hard SF" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This so called hard sf always leaves me with a smirk." } ] } ] }