{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5881", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5881, "subject": "Thecla and Thea", "messages": 10, "voices": 5, "first": "2011-01-07T20:00:48+00:00", "last": "2011-01-09T13:11:05+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-07T20:00:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thecla and Thea", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(FWIW I think Wolfe addresses similar issues in BotNS. In Thecla and Thea we have \"half-sisters\"\nthe relationship unexplained. But surely it means something. This is a society in which\ncloning occurs but is not mentioned in polite conversation. I think we can detect it from names\ngiven- a clone gets a name which is a derivation of the source. Carina-Catherine, Pelagia-Pega and\nperhaps a couple others. If Borski was to get anything from his \"onomastics\" he should have gotten\nthis one. But he didn't. Hah! ;- ) )" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find this improbable, for a number of reasons, Thecla and Thea\ndon't, I think, look enough alike to be source and clone - their\ndifferences are specifically mentioned; they do look alike, but it's a\nnormal family resemblance. On the other hand they both _have_ clones,\nwhom we meet (who of course don't look exactly like them either, but\nthere's an explanation of that in terms of blood transfusions, which\nwon't work for Thecla and Thea themselves, as they are both of full\nexultant height). Then again, this naming convention is certainly used\nsometimes for people who are not clones - Agilus and Agia, Severian\nand Severa - while we don't have any clear examples of it being used\nfor clones. (The closest, perhaps, is Thais, whose name does echo her\nsource's, if as has been suggested she is Thea's khaibit, but in a\nrather different way.)\n\nMight I suggest an alternative view that may have a similar import -\nthat their mothers might have been source and clone? An exultant goes\nto court to become a concubine, taking her kahibit with her. Later she\nretires and gets married. What does her kahibit do then? Arguably,\ncontinues to go with her and becomes her husband's mistress. So they\nproduce half-sisters." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D277C79.5090601@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-01-07T20:50:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thecla and Thea", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Brilliant!\n\nOf course, you have the potential problem of the khaibit offspring being \nneither legitimate nor exultant.\n\nBut that sort of thing can be solved just by ignoring it---if society at \nlarge only cares about the nobility of the sperm, there is no problem." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/7/2011 3:00 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\n\nMight I suggest an alternative view that may have a similar import -\nthat their mothers might have been source and clone? An exultant goes\nto court to become a concubine, taking her kahibit with her. Later she\nretires and gets married. What does her kahibit do then? Arguably,\ncontinues to go with her and becomes her husband's mistress. So they\nproduce half-sisters." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-07T22:23:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thecla and Thea", "in_reply_to": "<4D277C79.5090601@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nBrilliant!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course, you have the potential problem of the khaibit offspring being\nneither legitimate nor exultant.\n\nBut that sort of thing can be solved just by ignoring it---if society at\nlarge only cares about the nobility of the sperm, there is no problem." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the mother's genes are noble. And concepts of legitimacy vary\nbetween societies; if it's a recognised relationship (even if we don't\ntalk about it) the children may count as legitimate." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D27B9DD.607@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-01-08T01:11:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thecla and Thea", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly. And since no one would be able to tell the real mother of a \nchild anyway, there is no point in maintaining a distinction." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/7/2011 5:23 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Of course, you have the potential problem of the khaibit offspring being\nneither legitimate nor exultant.\n\nBut that sort of thing can be solved just by ignoring it---if society at\nlarge only cares about the nobility of the sperm, there is no problem." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, the mother's genes are noble. And concepts of legitimacy vary\nbetween societies; if it's a recognised relationship (even if we don't\ntalk about it) the children may count as legitimate." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D27BBEB.4080508@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-08T01:20:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thecla and Thea", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/7/2011 2:00 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nMight I suggest an alternative view that may have a similar import -\nthat their mothers might have been source and clone? An exultant goes\nto court to become a concubine, taking her kahibit with her. Later she\nretires and gets married. What does her kahibit do then? Arguably,\ncontinues to go with her and becomes her husband's mistress. So they\nproduce half-sisters." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think that \"half-sisters\" is the right term, but I could see \nG.W. translating it as such. Fascinating idea, regardless!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-08T14:39:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thecla and Thea", "in_reply_to": "<4D27BBEB.4080508@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andrew Mason:> Might I suggest an alternative view that may have a similar import -" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "that their mothers might have been source and clone? An exultant goes\nto court to become a concubine, taking her kahibit with her. Later she\nretires and gets married. What does her kahibit do then? Arguably,\ncontinues to go with her and becomes her husband's mistress. So they\nproduce half-sisters." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI'm okay with this scenario. But I'm not sure it is necesary. My general idea or \n\"theory\" is just that there is unmentioned cloning going on and that given names will \nsometimes reflect its occurrance and that euphemism (like \"half-sister\") may be employed \nto disguise the relationship in polite conversation. \n \nSOmebody argued that Thecla and Thea are not identical. Nor are natural clones or what we\ncall \"identical twins\". Actually the main difference between them, that we are hit with\nnumerous times, is that Thecla has a \"triangular face\" while Thea has a \"heart-shaped face\".\nWhat is the difference between these shapes? I think the answer might be, \"sunken cheeks\".\n \nThere is a mysterious repeated theme of \"sunken cheeks\" in BotNS. I think it may be related \nto cloning and blood sharing on somewhat flimsy evidence: in a dream, we are shown a (heart-\nshaped) blood bat on the cheek of a young woman in a roomful of Thecla clones. In another dream, \nThecla is revealed to have had her eyes enlarged as a child through application of poison extracts \n(belladonna). I think both dreams can be interpreted as Severian's realization of the foul practices\nused to create youth and beauty among wealthy women of the Commonwealth.\n \nIf Roy were here he would argue (as he once did) that the example of Pelagia-Pega is contradicting\nbecause Pelagia is an \"armigette\" and we only have evidence that exultant women are cloned so we \nmust toss out this theory. I would argue (snarkily) that we have the evidence of armigette cloning\nwith Pelagia and Pega. But I would argue more seriously that Cyriaca is an armigette and she seems\nto have a mysterious way of remaining youthful looking (as does Catherine/Katharine maid, another \narmigette height, dark-haired, strangled, ex-Pelerine).\n \nSomebody wondered about Agilus and Agia. I'm not sure. But they are so identical in appearance one\nwould suspect them of being identical twins. But we know that natural identical twins are always of\nthe same gender. I think they could be evidence of unnatural twinship.\n \nSomebody mentioned the character of \"Thais\" as a possible naming convention for a clone of Thea. Thea\nis too short to derive a saint name so this could be wordplay on Wolfe's part, Thais really meaning \n\"Thea's\" (her khaibit). There is some STRANGE stuff happening on that raft floating around at the end of \nthe world. Thais gives sly looks. Odilo and Pega argue over the proper label of her relationship\nwith Pelagia....\n \nOdilo strongly resembles his father, the steward Severian knew from long ago. We have Pega-Pelagia. We\nhave Thea-Thais. And we have Severian who is a twin and who we are pretty sure has multiple version of\nhimself running around. I think it would make an appropriate symmetry if all four future gods on that\nraft were, in some manner, cloned. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D288241.3020301@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-08T15:26:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thecla and Thea", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/8/2011 8:39 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nIf Roy were here he would argue (as he once did) that the example of Pelagia-Pega is contradicting\nbecause Pelagia is an \"armigette\" and we only have evidence that exultant women are cloned so we\nmust toss out this theory. I would argue (snarkily) that we have the evidence of armigette cloning\nwith Pelagia and Pega. But I would argue more seriously that Cyriaca is an armigette and she seems\nto have a mysterious way of remaining youthful looking (as does Catherine/Katharine maid, another\narmigette height, dark-haired, strangled, ex-Pelerine)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whos there - the Kataharine maid can't have been been strangled, since \nshe is either alive or some sort of non-neck-dependent robot. And if she \nand Catherine are the same person, Catherine can't have been strangled \neither." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<926856.91671.qm@web114717.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-01-08T16:52:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thecla and Thea", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "SOmebody argued that Thecla and Thea are not identical. Nor are natural clones \nor what we\ncall \"identical twins\". Actually the main difference between them, that we are \nhit with\nnumerous times, is that Thecla has a \"triangular face\" while Thea has a \n\"heart-shaped face\".\nWhat is the difference between these shapes? I think the answer might be, \n\"sunken cheeks\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To pick a nit, a heart-shaped face seems to be one with a narrow chin but wide \nat the top. A triangular face is wider than usual at the bottom and narrower \nthan usual at the top. (I wouldn't describe that shape as \"triangular\", but \nwhat do I know?) The Web sites I've looked at are\nhttp://www.visual-makeover.com/face.htm\nhttp://beauty.about.com/od/bestcutsbyfaceshape/ss/heart_face_hairstyles.htm\nhttp://www.thehairstyler.com/features/articles/hairstyles/the-right-hairstyle-for-your-triangular-face-shape" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is a mysterious repeated theme of \"sunken cheeks\" in BotNS." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "With no evidence, this can be a difference between the Commonwealth and our \nsociety. We have the Hollywood ideal of sunken cheeks (high cheekbones), which \nlook emaciated to cultures that see beauty in person rather than in \nphotographs. (Cyriaca's comments on Severian may contradict this.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it may be related \nto cloning and blood sharing on somewhat flimsy evidence: in a dream, we are \nshown a (heart-\nshaped) blood bat on the cheek of a young woman in a roomful of Thecla clones. \nIn another dream, \n\nThecla is revealed to have had her eyes enlarged as a child through \napplication of poison extracts \n\n(belladonna)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another nitpick: It enlarged her pupils, not her eyes, right?\n\nThat dream sounds familiar, but I couldn't find it with Amazon book search (and \nI have no idea where it might be)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think both dreams can be interpreted as Severian's realization of the foul \npractices\nused to create youth and beauty among wealthy women of the Commonwealth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nIn my opinion, temporarily dilating pupils with belladonna is much less foul \nthan creating clones for exploitation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Somebody wondered about Agilus and Agia. I'm not sure. But they are so \nidentical in appearance one\nwould suspect them of being identical twins. But we know that natural \nidentical twins are always of\nthe same gender. I think they could be evidence of unnatural twinship." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nI know twin brothers who I can't tell apart, but they assure me they're \nfraternal twins. (\"Two placentas\", one of them said.) I admit that the fact \nthat they always wear turbans doesn't help, but still, Agia and Agilus could be \nlike them but different sexes. I'm not saying they can't have been created \nartificially. I doubt one of the Khalsa brothers will scream if the other dies \n(a long time from now, I hope) in his absence.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-09T03:16:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thecla and Thea", "in_reply_to": "<926856.91671.qm@web114717.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: In other words, a completely different woman than the one named was \nstrangled?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't claim to \"know\". But that's the question of identity which is being raised, I think-\nis a clone a \"completely different woman\"? The face of all these Catherine-versions\nseem to tear at Severian's heart. Valeria's too. Make of that what you will." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Catamites have been popular subjects of excruciations over the ages, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Master Malrubius probably mentioned them during school.\n \nNah, even the Pelerines don't frown on the frequent man-boy love they observe among the troops.\n \nWhat's weird is that Severian refuses to acknowlege his own likely experience, even providing \nunsolicited denials to his readers and to the Pelerine. I think the answer is that Severian,\n(at his deepest core) is an avatar of Gene WOlfe. And Gene WOlfe has 20th century middle class\nAmerican values rather than the medieval, male-guild raised values we'd expect Severian to have." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's the odd bits of common observation that Severian seems to know despite being \nraised in the tower, even before he gets Thecla's memories, that puzzle me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI agree with this. My answer is generally that we don't know whether Severian is interpreting\nhis adventurers as a boy apprentice or as the later autarch-author. Seems like he switches back\nand forth a bit.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D29B3E9.7030508@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-09T13:11:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thecla and Thea", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 1/8/2011 9:16 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nCatamites have been popular subjects of excruciations over the ages,\nMaster Malrubius probably mentioned them during school." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nah, even the Pelerines don't frown on the frequent man-boy love they observe among the troops." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"This apparatus, no longer functional or maintained, was greatly and \nwidely feared in its time despite being reserved for use on catamites \nand their patrons. A Master Irenaeus had it moved to this far corner \nafter several clients became hysterically resistant while being led \nwithin sight of it during one particularly busy winter. Yes, Drotte?\"\n\n\"Master, what are catamites?\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] } ] }