{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5882", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5882, "subject": "VRT as half-abo", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2011-01-07T20:11:28+00:00", "last": "2011-01-09T11:46:22+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2011-01-07T20:11:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) VRT as half-abo", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nHow do you know how VRT's abilities compare with those of his mother?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In his cell VRT writes that he remembers his mother making herself\nunattractive when his father came home drunk, using \"the muscles of\nher face.\" He adds \"I have the same ability, though not to the extent\nshe did.\"\n\nA page or so later he has a dream memory of her 'buttoned into her\ndress' by his father. Whereas he can surely dress himself.\n\nTrenchard tells Marsch that his wife was useless and \"She could not\neven cook!\" Marsch says VRT is a great camp cook - but adds that he is\nconstantly burning his fingers in the fire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "?If shapechanging is an ability of the ancient humans (for reasons that need to\nbe explained)..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think shapechanging *is* an ability of the ancient humans (or\nhuman-looking aliens if such they be). I don't see any evidence of\nthat, and it creates a lot of problems. I think maybe they can do\nvoices and control the muscles of their faces, something both\nTrenchards say the mother can do. I'm not even sure it's that. I\nwonder if maybe they just think themselves different and the Shadow\nChildren send back this thought \"greater, greater, greater\" than\nbefore." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[VRT] does rather well with it, substituting for a professional\nman from Earth and getting away with it for quite some time (he was unlucky\nto be caught). ?His mother did not pull off any coup of this sort." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which again suggests VRT is only half-abo. His mother stole without\ncompunction, \"if she had eaten she wanted nothing\", and by VRT's own\naccount she \"knew nothing\" either. She wasn't equipped to integrate\nwith human society beyond a base level." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know if he thinks he is genetically the son of his apparent father -\ndoes he indicate this anywhere?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmm, not that I can recall. He certainly thinks he is half Annese. \"At\nleast half of me is animal,\" he says at one point. \"The Free People\nare wonderful... but they are animals.\" There are lots of other\nutterances like that.\n\nHe doesn't like his father, however, so I think he would have disowned\nhim if he could." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Fri, 7 Jan 2011 10:35:59 -0800 (PST)\nFrom: Jerry Friedman \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Reptiles\nMessage-ID: <619360.98064.qm at web114708.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On the other hand he seems to have conflated monkeys and apes in a ?couple\nspots in his work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "(a baboon is big, but definitely a ?monkey)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I retract this. I was thinking about how one of the monkeys ?associated with\nFather Inire's name,\nInuus sylvanus, is commonly called the ?Barbary Ape because, though clearly a\nmonkey, has no tail.\nDid a little ?checking and in the past (in less rigorous taxonomic times),\nbaboons were also\n\ngenerally called \"apes\", probably due to their size and because they are ?more\nterrestrial than arboreal\n\nand their tails aren't prominent in their ?most frequent posture- sitting on\nthe ground." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In fact, according to the NSOED, all monkeys were once called \"apes\"; that was\nthe only word in English. ?\"Monkey\" first appeared in the 16th century.\n\nIt doesn't give information on when biologists started to tell people to use\n\"ape\" for the tailless ones or specifically for what the gibbons and the great\napes. ?My feeling is that the distinction has taken hold better than most\nprescribed distinctions, and the words aren't synonyms--though as you point out,\npeople do still refer to chimps as monkeys. ?But this is getting off-topic, so\nif Antonio wants to know more about current usage, he can always ask in\nalt.usage.english.\n\nSo I agree that if Severian calls a big monkey an ape, that's just because his\nsociety or his part of it isn't concerned with taxonomic precision, as our\nancestors weren't.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 7\nDate: Fri, 7 Jan 2011 13:49:19 -0500\nFrom: Lee Berman \nTo: \nSubject: (urth) Dan'l! (was: Re: It's getting hard...)\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When you say 'bounce ideas' do you just mean post ideas, no matter how wacky" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ryan Dunn: So if a passage about Agia hitting her head on the floor and it sounding like a hammer\ntapping stone..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hah! Excellent riff on the \"bounce\" metaphor Ryan!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: “That doesn't mean that there are not good ideas, questionable ideas, and ideas that are totally out\nto lunch. ?Don't we care which are which”" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Son O' Witz: I certainly agree with that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not me. Gerry used the example of an apparently insane theory which involved Daleks to make his point. The thing is,\nnobody here (currently) does anything like that. As an example, Ryan's observation regarding Agia's head comes straight\nfrom the text. Robots are found in the text. Ryan connects them in a way that makes sense to him. If it doesn't make\nsense to you, what does that prove? That Ryan is stupid or insane? That we need to take a vote?\n\nAs Jane says, this is fiction! It is not possible for there to be a \"right\" answer. There is no objective reality\nto measure. Ideas are not found in dots on a page or screen. Ideas are not floating around in the aether either. They\nONLY to be found as neural patterns in each human being's brain. And as long as one intelligent, sane person has a certain\nidea, that idea has validity.\n\nIt could be argued that Gerry's dismissal of a theory is itself a theory. And that his theory has validity. And it does!\nBut, by Gerry's own philosophy, all theories need to be challenged. Judge not, lest ye be judged?\n\nThe truth is we waste time challenging only the theories that bother us. Neglected is the self-analysis- \"why does this\nbother me?\" Some interesting truths will emerge if we answer this question honestly (answer only to ourselves, please-\nwe don't need any Dr. Phil confessional crap in here ;- ) )\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 8\nDate: Fri, 7 Jan 2011 13:55:40 -0500\nFrom: Lee Berman \nTo: \nSubject: (urth) Reptiles\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Mark Millman: In that case, it may interest you to know that, at roughly the same\ntime that the term \"ape\" comprised large monkeys such as baboons, the\nterm \"reptile\" comprised amphibians--which typically have externally\nfertilized eggs that require open water." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "LMAO. Good one Mark! I could haggle over differences between the Commonwealth and Blue\nbut I won't risk the possibility of diluting such an excellent response!\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-08T01:40:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) VRT as half-abo", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Tony Ellis\" \nGerry Quinn wrote:\nHow do you know how VRT's abilities compare with those of his mother?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In his cell VRT writes that he remembers his mother making herself\nunattractive when his father came home drunk, using \"the muscles of\nher face.\" He adds \"I have the same ability, though not to the extent\nshe did.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting. I hadn't thought much about his mother, but I think you are \nright that she seems to be comparatively stronger on shapechanging and he on \ntools. Whether that makes him a half-breed or not I don't know - it would \nbe possible either way. I suspect his education, such as it was, was better \nthan hers.\n\nI also notice now: \"her beautiul eyes shining like shards of green glass in \nthe dark.\" Further confirmation that green eyes are the heritable signature \nof Sainte Anne abos." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A page or so later he has a dream memory of her 'buttoned into her\ndress' by his father. Whereas he can surely dress himself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That may be due, at least in part, to the difference in attire between men \nand women. Most men would recoil at the notion of attire that needs \nfastening at the back, and even among the undoubted humans of twenty first \ncentury Earth, it is not uncommon for men to have to do up women's clothes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Trenchard tells Marsch that his wife was useless and \"She could not\neven cook!\" Marsch says VRT is a great camp cook - but adds that he is\nconstantly burning his fingers in the fire." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fair enough." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "[VRT] does rather well with it [shapechanging], substituting for a \nprofessional\nman from Earth and getting away with it for quite some time (he was \nunlucky\nto be caught). His mother did not pull off any coup of this sort." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Which again suggests VRT is only half-abo. His mother stole without\ncompunction, \"if she had eaten she wanted nothing\", and by VRT's own\naccount she \"knew nothing\" either. She wasn't equipped to integrate\nwith human society beyond a base level." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Half-abo, or educated abo. I don't think we have enough information to \ntell.\n\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9EBF9180-196C-48AF-8086-96A929F9658B@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-09T04:28:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) VRT as half-abo", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 7 de Jan de 2011, ?s 20:11, Tony Ellis escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Which again suggests VRT is only half-abo. His mother stole without\ncompunction, \"if she had eaten she wanted nothing\", and by VRT's own\naccount she \"knew nothing\" either. She wasn't equipped to integrate\nwith human society beyond a base level." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What I find curious here is the contrast with the inhumi. Those seem so keen to imitate humans in their highest refinement, whereas these seem only to gradually climb the slope. Whats their motivation ?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-09T11:46:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) VRT as half-abo", "in_reply_to": "<9EBF9180-196C-48AF-8086-96A929F9658B@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: What I find curious here is the contrast with the inhumi. Those \nseem so keen to imitate humans in their highest refinement, whereas these seem only to \ngradually climb the slope. Whats their motivation ?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think this is a good observation. Inhumi have less shape-shifting ability than abos. \nThey retain fangs and claws and must use optical illusion to complete their imitation of\nhumans. But they seem extremely happy when they dream-travel and become fully human. They \ndon't want to go back home and to their original form.\n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }