{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5885", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5885, "subject": "Thea and Thecla", "messages": 26, "voices": 8, "first": "2011-01-08T19:49:32+00:00", "last": "2011-01-11T18:11:04+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-08T19:49:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thea and Thecla", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Whos there - the Katharine maid can't have been been strangled, since \nshe is either alive or some sort of non-neck-dependent robot. And if she \nand Catherine are the same person, Catherine can't have been strangled \neither." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWell, depends on how many \"Catherines\" there are. Borrowing from the Dave Tallman theory,\nperhaps there are at least 4, the Contessa Carina and her three cloned (and beheaded) maids\nfrom Dr. Talos' play.\n \nTrying to be concise, I didn't qualify this as referring back to my own theory that the woman \nin the coffin, in the opening pages of the story, with dark hair and a pale gown is the same \nwoman Severian sees on the Path of Air with the same hair and gown. The strangulation is guessed \nfrom her livid face and the undue attention paid to one particular torture device, Allowin's \nNecklace. The strangulation penalty for adultery is mirrored with Catherine's mirror image, \nCyriaca." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman: To pick a nit, a heart-shaped face seems to be one with a narrow chin but wide \nat the top. A triangular face is wider than usual at the bottom and narrower \nthan usual at the top. (I wouldn't describe that shape as \"triangular\", but \nwhat do I know?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh, funny what a small difference in interpretation will do. When I hear \"triangular face\" I think\nthe opposite- an upside down triangle, pointy chin and wider forehead. So upside down triangle and \nheart are almost the same. \n \nI'm pretty confident this is what Wolfe meant because in 5HoC there is the \"planetary look\" that \nNumber Five and his clones share. The four-arm slave they encounter has a triangular face and the\nplanetary look involves a narrow, pointed chin. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We have the Hollywood ideal of sunken cheeks (high cheekbones), which look emaciated to cultures that \nsee beauty in person rather than in photographs." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nMy idea leans in the opposite direction. Sunken cheeks in BotNS may be an indication of being a blood\ndonor in the khaibit scheme of things. We have the bat-on-cheek dream. And Thais has the sunken cheeks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That dream sounds familiar, but I couldn't find it...In my opinion, temporarily dilating pupils with \nbelladonna is much less foul than creating clones for exploitation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The dream is mushroom induced in the hetman's house. And thanks for correcting me, I shouldn't call it\nbelladonna which is about pupil dilation. This is more permanent and abusive:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"I watched a parade of women from the court...and their eyes made large as Thecla's had been by the \napplication of certain poisons in childhood-..\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nOn twins:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I know twin brothers who I can't tell apart, but they assure me they're fraternal twins. (\"Two placentas\", \none of them said.) I admit that the fact that they always wear turbans doesn't help, but still, Agia and \nAgilus could be like them but different sexes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nOne difference though: the Khalsa brothers are twins through an accidental process. The twinhood of Agia and \nAgilus is part of an elaborate and carefully designed plan. Both their extreme similarity and their incestuous \nrelationship must be for an important purpose. We shouldn't ignore it. \n \n(FWIW, some detect a hint of homoeroticism in Severian's perception of Agilus. For me it is part of a pattern \nof concealed homo- and pedo- eroticism that periodically swerves beneath the text. Surely a theme worth its\nown thread...but for now I'll just ponder how Severian knows what a \"catamite\" is [I didn't] and how he is able\nto identify one at a glance in the frenzy of battle and flight).\n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D28C5A6.3020302@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-08T20:14:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thea and Thecla", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/8/2011 1:49 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Whos there - the Katharine maid can't have been been strangled, since\nshe is either alive or some sort of non-neck-dependent robot. And if she\nand Catherine are the same person, Catherine can't have been strangled\neither." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, depends on how many \"Catherines\" there are. Borrowing from the Dave Tallman theory,\nperhaps there are at least 4, the Contessa Carina and her three cloned (and beheaded) maids\nfrom Dr. Talos' play.\n\nTrying to be concise, I didn't qualify this as referring back to my own theory that the woman\nin the coffin, in the opening pages of the story, with dark hair and a pale gown is the same\nwoman Severian sees on the Path of Air with the same hair and gown. The strangulation is guessed\nfrom her livid face and the undue attention paid to one particular torture device, Allowin's\nNecklace." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In other words, a completely different woman than the one named was \nstrangled?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(FWIW, some detect a hint of homoeroticism in Severian's perception of Agilus. For me it is part of a pattern\nof concealed homo- and pedo- eroticism that periodically swerves beneath the text. Surely a theme worth its\nown thread...but for now I'll just ponder how Severian knows what a \"catamite\" is [I didn't] and how he is able\nto identify one at a glance in the frenzy of battle and flight)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Catamites have been popular subjects of excruciations over the ages, \nMaster Malrubius probably mentioned them during school. It's the odd \nbits of common observation that Severian seems to know despite being \nraised in the tower, even before he gets Thecla's memories, that puzzle me." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflatourth at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-09T17:31:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thea and Thecla", "in_reply_to": "<4D28C5A6.3020302@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "but we never meet that Severian...the one raised in the tower, and before\nThecla's memories...we only ever hear from autarch Severian writing it all\ndown. Sometimes he tries to mask what he knows to simulate his old\nignorance, but it doesn.t always work.\n\nOn Jan 8, 2011 12:14 PM, \"Jeff Wilson\" wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/8/2011 1:49 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Whos there - the Katharine maid can't ha..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In other words, a completely different woman than the one named was\nstrangled?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(FWIW, some detect a hint of homoeroticism in Severian's perception of" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agilus. For me it is part...\nCatamites have been popular subjects of excruciations over the ages, Master\nMalrubius probably mentioned them during school. It's the odd bits of common\nobservation that Severian seems to know despite being raised in the tower,\neven before he gets Thecla's memories, that puzzle me." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D29F7C7.5090903@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-09T18:00:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thea and Thecla", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/9/2011 11:31 AM, Jordon Flato wrote:\nbut we never meet that Severian...the one raised in the tower, and\nbefore Thecla's memories...we only ever hear from autarch Severian\nwriting it all down. Sometimes he tries to mask what he knows to\nsimulate his old ignorance, but it doesn.t always work." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure it's never, since we've identified passages when Thecla and \nthe old Autarch take over the first person for a moment. It's possible \nthat un-mixed Severian bobs up in the soup on occasion. I''ll see if I \ncan locate where Severian not only reflects on but acts because of \n\"common observation\" , pre-nosh." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflatourth at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-10T00:26:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thea and Thecla", "in_reply_to": "<4D29F7C7.5090903@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guesa what am trying to say is at a very basic level, at best Severian can\nonly aproximate that pre nosh youth, because botns isnt a journsl, but\nmemiors written after nosh and after hes been autarch for a time.\n\nOn Jan 9, 2011 10:00 AM, \"Jeff Wilson\" wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/9/2011 11:31 AM, Jordon Flato wrote:\n\nbut we never meet that Severian...the one raised in th..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure it's never, since we've identified passages when Thecla and the\nold Autarch take over the first person for a moment. It's possible that\nun-mixed Severian bobs up in the soup on occasion. I''ll see if I can locate\nwhere Severian not only reflects on but acts because of \"common observation\"\n, pre-nosh." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< htt..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D2AD89E.2050405@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-10T09:59:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thea and Thecla", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/9/2011 6:26 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:\nI guesa what am trying to say is at a very basic level, at best Severian\ncan only aproximate that pre nosh youth, because botns isnt a journsl,\nbut memiors written after nosh and after hes been autarch for a time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But that is where the superlative memory comes in, isn't it?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D2AFBD5.7040904@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-01-10T12:30:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thea and Thecla", "in_reply_to": "<4D2AD89E.2050405@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/10/2011 4:59 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 1/9/2011 6:26 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I guesa what am trying to say is at a very basic level, at best Severian\ncan only aproximate that pre nosh youth, because botns isnt a journsl,\nbut memiors written after nosh and after hes been autarch for a time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But that is where the superlative memory comes in, isn't it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True. However, Severian the autarch probably considers Severian the \nyouth to be too naive to be allowed to take over, if that were even \npossible. He may have the memory but he lacks the most basic \nunderstanding. And yet the narrator gives us a good deal of background, \nbecause Severian the youth does fit well into the bildungsroman (someone \ncalled it a conversion narrative and I think that almost fits as well) \nhe is constructing. At very least, there must be a contrast between the \nearly fool and the late magician; in Severian's case it is a complex \ncontrast.\n\nJordan, you made an excellent point about the narrator trying to keep \nhis narrative straight from Severian's point of view. It's one thing to \nbe king and tell the tale of when you were an apprentice or a scullery \nmaid; it's another to have intimate exterior knowledge of the \ncircumstances of your own youth and keep that knowledge out of the tale. \nThis is commonly done in such narratives---the difference is a matter of \ndegree as well as a qualitative one. (Usually handled with \"Well, of \ncourse I didn't know that then, silly boy that I was, but the man to \nwhom my father lent his cows was the Duke of Zzzz...\") It helps that \nSeverian the boy lived an isolated, almost monastic life.\n\nThis needed clarity of narrative may be another reason why Wolfe makes \nSeverian's memory so strong---not only would he be overwhelmed by the \nvoices as autarch if his own memory was weak, but Wolfe would not be \nable to justify a coherent narrative of Severian's youth at all. \nSeverian has enough trouble himself at points, especially with Thecla \n(who exists partly to suggest what it's like to be autarch). Through his \nentire journey, pre- and post-nosh, he encounters situations, like the \nAntechamber, that he _will already know_. However, enough mystery must \nremain about some of them (Baldanders, the magicians, Typhon) that he \ncan still recall and almost convincingly relate his original naive \nexperience." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-10T13:01:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thea and Thecla", "in_reply_to": "<4D2AFBD5.7040904@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Jordan, you made an excellent point about the narrator trying to keep \nhis narrative straight from Severian's point of view....This needed clarity of narrative may \nbe another reason why Wolfe makes Severian's memory so strong....However, enough mystery must \nremain about some of them..that he can still recall and almost convincingly relate his original naive \nexperience." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think this is a very good analysis. And it is not only relevant to SF and brain-eating characters.\nWe all have childhood and youthful memories and we all know what it is like to have a doubled\nperception; how we thought and felt then vs. how we think and feel now.\n \nI'll note that Mantis once posted a nice summary of how BotNS paralleled Gene Wolfe's life. As he \nwrote this book, he himself was facing the story-telling problems Severian was facing. We have all told\nstories of our youth so we all know (if we are good story-tellers) that it would ruin the story to \nconstantly, repeatedly interupt the story events with \"well, of course now I know that...\". \n \nWe are not all good story tellers but we are all experienced story readers/listeners. A good author \nacknowledges and uses that fact. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<325810.59986.qm@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-01-10T15:30:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thea and Thecla", "in_reply_to": "<4D2AFBD5.7040904@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Mon, 1/10/11, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n (Usually" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "handled with \"Well, of course I didn't know that then, silly\nboy that I was, but the man to whom my father lent his cows\nwas the Duke of Zzzz...\") It helps that Severian the boy\nlived an isolated, almost monastic life." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You know, this is almost exactly what he says about the huge footsteps down in the man ape/monkey/simian mine, but in true Wolfe style he just says, now I think I know what it was without ever coming out with it explicitly. son of a ...\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<9B0E36917C2E49579F888B77270D47CE@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-10T15:46:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thea and Thecla", "in_reply_to": "<325810.59986.qm@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Marc Aramini\" \n--- On Mon, 1/10/11, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n(Usually\nhandled with \"Well, of course I didn't know that then, silly\nboy that I was, but the man to whom my father lent his cows\nwas the Duke of Zzzz...\") It helps that Severian the boy\nlived an isolated, almost monastic life.\n\nYou know, this is almost exactly what he says about the huge footsteps \ndown in the man ape/monkey/simian mine, but in true Wolfe style he just \nsays, now I think I know what it was without ever coming out with it \nexplicitly. son of a ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The one that bugs me the most is what was it that Kulili showed Abel at the \nbottom of the sea? The plug? The corpse of someone significant?\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<446834.34836.qm@web84102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-01-10T16:00:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thea and Thecla", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right. And so this is a common problem with conventional solutions. I like to think of the storytelling as withholding information, not giving it or even parsing it out. You'd only intrude with the \"adult\" perspective when it advances the story.\n\n--- On Mon, 1/10/11, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nFrom: Lee Berman \nSubject: (urth) Thea and Thecla\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Monday, January 10, 2011, 8:01 AM\n\nI'll note that Mantis once posted a nice summary of how BotNS paralleled Gene Wolfe's life. As he?\nwrote this book, he himself was facing the story-telling problems Severian was facing. We have all told\nstories of our youth so we all know (if we are good story-tellers) that it would ruin the story to?\nconstantly, repeatedly interupt the story events with \"well, of course now I know that...\"." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D2B34B1.6040703@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-10T16:32:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thea and Thecla", "in_reply_to": "<4D2AFBD5.7040904@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/10/2011 6:30 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 1/10/2011 4:59 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 1/9/2011 6:26 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I guesa what am trying to say is at a very basic level, at best Severian\ncan only aproximate that pre nosh youth, because botns isnt a journsl,\nbut memiors written after nosh and after hes been autarch for a time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But that is where the superlative memory comes in, isn't it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "True. However, Severian the autarch probably considers Severian the\nyouth to be too naive to be allowed to take over, if that were even\npossible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems to happen despite the writer's stated wishes. He might let \n\"Appian's\" POV mingle with his in CITADEL to show how he is not entirely \nover the effects of the analeptic and is still finding his mental sea \nlegs, but Thecla's memories seem to intrude where stimulated, possibly \neven into the pre-nosh passages, making the narrator's sentences appear \nnonsensical or counterfactual:\n\n\"I played again with pebbles in the courtyard beside the fallen curtain \nwall, as Thecla dodged the hooves of my father's mounted guard.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<147251.50853.qm@web84103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-01-10T17:27:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thea and Thecla", "in_reply_to": "<4D2B34B1.6040703@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Mon, 1/10/11, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) Thea and Thecla\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, January 10, 2011, 11:32 AM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/10/2011 6:30 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 1/10/2011 4:59 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 1/9/2011 6:26 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I guesa what am trying to say is at a very basic level, at best Severian\ncan only aproximate that pre nosh youth, because botns isnt a journsl,\nbut memiors written after nosh and after hes been autarch for a time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But that is where the superlative memory comes in, isn't it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "True. However, Severian the autarch probably considers Severian the\nyouth to be too naive to be allowed to take over, if that were even\npossible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems to happen despite the writer's stated wishes. He might let \"Appian's\" POV mingle with his in CITADEL to show how he is not entirely over the effects of the analeptic and is still finding his mental sea legs, but Thecla's memories seem to intrude where stimulated, possibly even into the pre-nosh passages, making the narrator's sentences appear nonsensical or counterfactual:\n\n\"I played again with pebbles in the courtyard beside the fallen curtain wall, as Thecla dodged the hooves of my father's mounted guard.\"\n\n-- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n\nYeah, the narrator's intentions regarding \"ordinary\" problems of false or recreated naivete, which are already bad enough given the depth and breadth of memories available to him, are subverted by a particular and \"extraordinary\" identity problem that results in an acute dislocation that this passage captures very well. This only emphasizes the original problem." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-10T18:28:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thea and Thecla", "in_reply_to": "<147251.50853.qm@web84103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"I played again with pebbles in the courtyard beside the fallen curtain wall, as Thecla dodged the hooves \nof my father's mounted guard.\"\n\n \nJeff Wilson: ..\"extraordinary\" identity problem that results in an acute dislocation that this passage \ncaptures very well.\n \nIt is a likely interpretation. But I see another possibility with that particular passage. This occurs at \nthe terminus of a sequence of memories which switch back and forth between Severian and Thecla. The final \ncombined memory could be showing us a merging of their identities (though the merge does not seem to take; \nthe identities for the rest of the story remain back and forth switching).\n \nI think there is a possibility that this is a disguised hint regarding identification of a family member of \nSeverian (which I roundly think we are supposed to be doing as we re-read). Perhaps Severian's first memory \nhas been jogged to include the presence of a young Thecla there with him at the Citadel. Severian is loathe\nto admit any incidences of incest, and he is suspiciously reluctant to admit the truth of his sexual congress\nwith Thecla (it takes him more than 3 books, despite his open revelations of other sexual liaisons).\n \nRoy has argued that a family connection is impossible because Thecla reports her family has a villa in the north. \nI have argued with Roy that a villa is defined as a secondary residence. So where was her primary residence? So it\ngoes. I still find it possible. (and who is \"the Castellan\" of the Citadel? Why is he lame? Does he have a mounted \nguard?)\n \nI have further wondered about the ancestry of Thecla based on Severian's dream after his wounding at Orithya.\nAs Thecla he dreams of her father as a weird, mythological bull figure. I have some guesses about this but\neither way I am pretty sure there is more to Thecla and her ancestry than is generally acknowledged. Since\nthere is a constellational aspect to this dream, I wonder if James might have any input here. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<768164.13960.qm@web161809.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-01-10T21:04:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thea and Thecla", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On Mon, 1/10/11, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"I played again with pebbles in the courtyard beside the\nfallen curtain wall, as Thecla dodged the hooves \nof my father's mounted guard.\"\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do agree with one point, and that is that Wolfe often does do plain straightforward stuff like the quote above but somehow makes it exceedingly ambiguous, such that it is mentioned in a dream, or trapped in metaphor that seems merely figurative, or in this kind of sensory overload situation where it is not clear who is talking. ie Kypris saying \"this woman is a spy\" talking about the body she possesses.\n\nAt the end of Obw, the narrator says, I caught the ball, I won the game. We know that is Silk, but there is so much \"white noise\" around it that even straightforward statements like that become infinitely complicated until a mechanism is found to explain them logically. So yes, these kind of ambiguities need explication. They are begging for it. \n\nI don't know if Wolfe became more concrete in his solutions as he got older or my reading style changed, but the child who first read New Sun is still puzzled by the same stuff that puzzled me as a kid, whereas the texts I have come to as an older man, including Latro, seems to me much more solvable to some degree with the slippery symbolic word association Wolfe employs (tree/death in Peace, for example). I think New Sun has some very important elided parts that simply can't be filled in as neatly as the elided portions of Latro (we KNOW why Latro is depressed in Arete - the Spartan's incredible cruelty and the death of his amazon woman, and there seem to be other explanations as to why he can succeed in pushing Sysiphus' boulder to the top when a demigod can't do it, too. \nWe know that one guy is a goat like satyr or faun, the puzzles seem to have solutions.) \n\nLong Sun and Short Sun seemed the same way to me, imminently solvable, with the Plan of Pas dominating much of the conflict in the Whorl and the mystical trees controlling much in the Short Sun, but I have not been able to find the satisfying kinds of statements like \"kypris who was mother was was Hyacinth\" out in the open in New Sun. Instead I have this vague fear Severian is a bastard not from his own descriptions but in the way he uses people and does not seem to acknowledge it. Sometimes I think he only spares Agia because of some presentiment that she will save him later. \n\nI would be more likely to say Wolfe thrives on that purposeful inexplicable Heisenberg uncertainty in his earlier fiction like 5hoc and New Sun but his later stuff seems to me more like Peace, very very very clever obfuscations. There is a reason Weer our narrator turns away from certain facts, but we can read between the line and reach his own refusal to explore the evil he has done in a life that is for all intents and purposes long over.\n \n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D2B826B.8070704@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-10T22:04:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lee Berman and Hotmail", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/10/2011 12:28 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\n\"I played again with pebbles in the courtyard beside the fallen curtain wall, as Thecla dodged the hooves\nof my father's mounted guard.\"\n\n\nJeff Wilson: ..\"extraordinary\" identity problem that results in an acute dislocation that this passage\ncaptures very well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is so not me. Please get a real e-mail service with functional \nquoting and threading. There are several free ones, like g-mail." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<575820.32369.qm@web84107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-01-10T22:10:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lee Berman and Hotmail", "in_reply_to": "<4D2B826B.8070704@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, that must have been my fault. I used plaintext like you suggested, and bottom-posted.\n\nNever again!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Mon, 1/10/11, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: (urth) Lee Berman and Hotmail\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, January 10, 2011, 5:04 PM\nOn 1/10/2011 12:28 PM, Lee Berman\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"I played again with pebbles in the courtyard beside\nthe fallen curtain wall, as Thecla dodged the hooves\nof my father's mounted guard.\"\n\n\nJeff Wilson: ..\"extraordinary\" identity problem that\nresults in an acute dislocation that this passage\ncaptures very well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is so not me. Please get a real e-mail service with\nfunctional \nquoting and threading. There are several free ones, like\ng-mail.\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M\nTexarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D2B8556.6070008@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-10T22:16:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lee Berman and Hotmail", "in_reply_to": "<575820.32369.qm@web84107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/10/2011 4:10 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nActually, that must have been my fault. I used plaintext like you suggested, and bottom-posted." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Your observation of the correct standards does not mean Lee is free to \nsnooze at the console." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Never again!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You'll notice that I did not mention yahoo.com as a free, compliant service." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-10T22:28:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lee Berman and Hotmail", "in_reply_to": "<4D2B8556.6070008@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 10 de Jan de 2011, ?s 22:16, Jeff Wilson escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/10/2011 4:10 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Actually, that must have been my fault. I used plaintext like you suggested, and bottom-posted." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Your observation of the correct standards does not mean Lee is free to snooze at the console." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David actually didn't quote you, he simply included your text and added his. Maybe yahoo is to blame, as suggested. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D2B9263.2040906@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-10T23:12:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lee Berman and Hotmail", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/10/2011 4:28 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nNo dia 10 de Jan de 2011, ?s 22:16, Jeff Wilson escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 1/10/2011 4:10 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Actually, that must have been my fault. I used plaintext like you suggested, and bottom-posted." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Your observation of the correct standards does not mean Lee is free to snooze at the console." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David actually didn't quote you, he simply included your text and added his. Maybe yahoo is to blame, as suggested." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yahoo contributes, but the sender remains ultimately responsible for the \ncontent of their messages, and a reasonable person could see that my \nsignature ended what I contributed and what followed was David's \noriginal composiiton, for which he deserves credit and I do not. Yahoo \nhas other attribution-mangling shortcomings that have been recently \ndiscussed in his seeing, so he gets no credit for not expecting Yahoo to \nbe be tricky there.\n\nQuoting, threading, attributing, etc is to make it easier for people to \nkeep track of who said what, but it doesn't relieve the people of the \nresponsibility for what their messages say when they choose to send \nthem. Of course people are not perfect, and I don't blame them for their \nunintentional mistakes, but I would like to encourage them to try some \nalternate arrangements that will help them avoid being visibly mistaken \nso often." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D2B9B28.6070903@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-01-10T23:50:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lee Berman and Hotmail", "in_reply_to": "<4D2B9263.2040906@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey, I _said_ Yahoo sucks!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/10/2011 6:12 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nYahoo contributes, but the sender remains ultimately responsible for \nthe content of their messages, and a reasonable person could see that \nmy signature ended what I contributed and what followed was David's \noriginal composiiton, for which he deserves credit and I do not. \nYahoo has other attribution-mangling shortcomings that have been \nrecently discussed in his seeing, so he gets no credit for not \nexpecting Yahoo to be be tricky there." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D2B9B80.9040602@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-10T23:51:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lee Berman and Hotmail", "in_reply_to": "<4D2B9B28.6070903@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 01/10/2011 05:50 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nHey, I _said_ Yahoo sucks!\n\nOn 1/10/2011 6:12 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yahoo contributes, but the sender remains ultimately responsible for \nthe content of their messages, and a reasonable person could see that \nmy signature ended what I contributed and what followed was David's \noriginal composiiton, for which he deserves credit and I do not. \nYahoo has other attribution-mangling shortcomings that have been \nrecently discussed in his seeing, so he gets no credit for not \nexpecting Yahoo to be be tricky there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but a *Yahoo* user would have had to clarify, \"Hey, *I* said Yahoo \nsucks!\"\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D2B9C9D.7050905@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-10T23:56:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lee Berman and Hotmail", "in_reply_to": "<4D2B9B28.6070903@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/10/2011 5:50 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nHey, I _said_ Yahoo sucks!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, which is why it is no excuse for Lee since he was informed Yahoo \nposts are going to be fubared to start with. His decision that it was \ntoo inconvenient to bother lets us know how little he cares that we have \nan accurate idea of what he and others are trying to say." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-11T02:27:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lee Berman and Hotmail", "in_reply_to": "<4D2B9C9D.7050905@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "LB: Sorry for the misquote. All my fault..carelessness I think. Still I like my way of\nquoting. WOrks best for me and avoids a lot of clutter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Your stated philosophy of communication is that it is primarily for the \nconvenience of the sender? As one of your receivers, I find that repugnant, insulting, \nand exploitative, not unlike the attitudes of spammers or demonstrative racists. But as a member \nof what is left of the first family of the Confederacy, I'm used to it, and I regret that \nit obscures the other, more humane qualities you may have." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure I understand what you are saying Jeff. Especially about the COnfederacy family. Are there\nracial or religious issues I am unaware of? Am I being told to drop what works for me and start using \nwhat works for Jeff Wilson? I really am confused here.\n \nPerhaps the confusion is in my use of the vernacular \"works for me\". This does not imply convenience\non my part. It is actually more trouble for me to type out people's name, eschew email addresses and\ncut and past only the specific parts of a post I am addressing. I do it for what I perceive as clarity.\nAgain I apologize for the mistaken attribution but I don't want to add clutter to my posts just to avoid\nthe occcasional error such as that. If it really did cause pain I'm sorry. (not to imply that I have any\nhumane qualities, let's not go TOO far! You're gonna ruin my reputation with that crap)\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D2C9294.10403@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-11T17:25:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lee Berman and Hotmail", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/10/2011 8:27 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "LB: Sorry for the misquote. All my fault..carelessness I think. Still I like my way of\nquoting. WOrks best for me and avoids a lot of clutter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Your stated philosophy of communication is that it is primarily for the\nconvenience of the sender? As one of your receivers, I find that repugnant, insulting,\nand exploitative, not unlike the attitudes of spammers or demonstrative racists. But as a member\nof what is left of the first family of the Confederacy, I'm used to it, and I regret that\nit obscures the other, more humane qualities you may have." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure I understand what you are saying Jeff. Especially about the COnfederacy family. Are there\nracial or religious issues I am unaware of?[...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps the confusion is in my use of the vernacular \"works for me\". This does not imply convenience\non my part. It is actually more trouble for me to type out people's name, eschew email addresses and\ncut and past only the specific parts of a post I am addressing. I do it for what I perceive as clarity.\nAgain I apologize for the mistaken attribution but I don't want to add clutter to my posts just to avoid\nthe occcasional error such as that. If it really did cause pain I'm sorry. (not to imply that I have any\nhumane qualities, let's not go TOO far! You're gonna ruin my reputation with that crap)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Confederacy reference is to establish that I am very familiar with \npeople that cannot or choose not to consider how what they have to say \nwill be received by the person whom they address. The N-word, negro, \nand colored are in their ears a series of ascending terms from contempt \nthrough indifference to regard for a black person but while most black \npeople today seem to prefer being called \"black\", my relatives have make \nit plain to me that the only reason they use \"black\" is to avoid \noffending *white* people who might overhear and complain.\n\nI am glad to hear this is not the sort of thing you intended to convey, \nbut I don't see how the commonly understood meaning of \"[It] works best \nfor me\" is supposed to be a constructive way of saying that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Am I being told to drop what works for me and start using\nwhat works for Jeff Wilson? I really am confused here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am asking you to consider moving toward what will work better for the \nmajority of the dozen or so active list members, including me, even if \nit is more effort for the single person of your self, since this \ndiscussion list is alleged to be a mutually useful undertaking. I \nbelieve that there is good possibility that you can find an arrangement \nthat will be less effort for you to meaningfully send *and* less effort \nfor the receivers to understand and in the interests of mutual gain, I \nam willing to invest some additional effort to help you get there.\n\nThis is an effort not just on the level of post formatting and \ncomposition, but also on the methodology of presenting your hypotheses \nof interpretation. I think there very well could be some truth to the \nDionysian notions you have on the BOTNS, for instance, but it's not \nenough to be right, one needs to be convincing or one risks making not \nonly no progress but negative progress by discrediting the right answer \nby association.\n\nI realize I am asking a lot for someone to modify their years-ingrained \nhabits. But I think it's more likely for one person to toe the line of \nmutual agreement than to expect the rest to mutually agree to move the \nline at the one person's pleasure. Unless it's a cult thing, I guess." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-11T18:11:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lee Berman and Hotmail", "in_reply_to": "<4D2C9294.10403@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: I realize I am asking a lot for someone to modify their years-ingrained \nhabits. But I think it's more likely for one person to toe the line of mutual agreement \nthan to expect the rest to mutually agree to move the line at the one person's pleasure. \nUnless it's a cult thing, I guess." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nActually, in my previous incarnations on this List, I used the traditional format to post, \nthough it always seemed a confusing and unnecessarily cluttered. My current style is\ndesigned to emulate the more modern posting format of some other message boards to which I \ncontribute. Using it here, I have noticed a general increase, not decrease, in the \nunderstanding of what I am trying to say. \n \nAlso, as I've mentioned, I rarely actually go to my email site to read Urth posts. I prefer\nthe website.\n \nBut I understand the appeal of a long-standing and familiar format also. I'd be glad to \nswitch back to the old method if a majority (maybe 7-8 others) strongly wish for it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "my relatives have make it plain to me that the only reason they use \"black\" is to avoid \noffending *white* people who might overhear and complain." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nheh. Any chance of getting them to say \"African-american\"? or.. \"Persons of Color\"? I have rural \nsouthern family myself (Florida panhandle) so I know what you are talking about. I leave it \nalone. If they can tolerate their yankee cousins' way of talking, walking and clothing themselves \nI guess I can tolerate their casually racist language for short visits. We are all products of our \nenvironments.\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }