{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5890", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5890, "subject": "Sigh.", "messages": 11, "voices": 7, "first": "2011-01-11T21:05:49+00:00", "last": "2011-01-12T01:03:43+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-11T21:05:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sigh.", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Look. I'm sorry, but any connection between the Blue/Green(/Whorl)\nsystem and the Urth/Lune(/Ushas) system is purely thematic/symbolic --\nNOT physical. Urth's sun, still red, is visible in the skies of Blue.\nUnless you want to propose that Ushas and Lune, in their distant,\npost-Severian, future, are transported (a) across the sea of stars and\n(b) backwards in time, they're different systems.\n\nThere's all sorts of good thematic/symbolic stuff going on, of course,\nand StCroix/SteAnne can also be brought in here, but please don't\nconfuse this hermeneutic level with that of the fictive \"reality.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-11T21:30:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sigh.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: Urth's sun, still red, is visible in the skies of Blue.\nUnless you want to propose that Ushas and Lune, in their distant,\npost-Severian, future, are transported (a) across the sea of stars and\n(b) backwards in time, they're different systems." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSeems to be so. It would take a lot of space-time contortions to make the theory work.\nSo, is that it? Is that all there is to it? An academic proof of incorrectness? For me \nthere is a human aspect. Will it really be a joyous day for the List when Marc Aramini is\nforced to retract all hopes for Urth=Green and admit eternal, irrevocable wrongness?\nParty hats and noisemakers on that day? \n \nPithy platitude of the day: It's the journey not the destination. It's the chase\nnot the catch. Whether you see people's lupine theories as journey companions or as a \nnasty little fox to corner and kill, these principles apply. Speaking strictly for myself,\nI found my thought processes stimulated more by trying to think of ways to support\nMarc's theory than by trying to delete it. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's all sorts of good thematic/symbolic stuff going on, of course,...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How about ecological and spiritual, hey? ;- ) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-11T21:39:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sigh.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nSo, is that it? Is that all there is to it? An academic proof of incorrectness? For me\nthere is a human aspect. Will it really be a joyous day for the List when Marc Aramini is\nforced to retract all hopes for Urth=Green and admit eternal, irrevocable wrongness?\nParty hats and noisemakers on that day?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No; and I specifically did not suggest that this eliminates Urth ==\nGreen _except_ on the (rather mundane) hermeneutic level of \"plot.\"\nWith Wolfe, other levels are almost always more interesting (which is\nwhy I find Wolfe an interesting writer).\n\nReturning to the Moby Dick analogy, one is reasonable in suggesting\nthat \"Moby Dick is God\" provided one does not mean \"Moby Dick, the\nwhale in the story, created the world in which the story takes place.\"\nThe ways in which Moby Dick can be God are much more interesting than\nthat. Likewise, the ways in which Urth can be Green are much more\ninteresting than the merely physical way in which it clearly can't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pithy platitude of the day: It's the journey not the destination. It's the chase\nnot the catch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That depends on whether you're a fox-hunter, in it for the sport, or a\npredator in it for your dinner. (Or, of course, the prey, in it for\nyour life.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whether you see people's lupine theories as journey companions or as a\nnasty little fox to corner and kill, these principles apply." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see them as neither. I see them as ideas to be considered on their own merits." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Speaking strictly for myself,\nI found my thought processes stimulated more by trying to think of ways to support\nMarc's theory than by trying to delete it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very well; and I am looking to support it on the level where it is\nbest supportable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There's all sorts of good thematic/symbolic stuff going on, of course,...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How about ecological and spiritual, hey? ;- )" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Certainly spiritual. Ecological? I can't say. Not if it means one\nplanet's ecology is a descendant of another's in a simple plot-level\nmanner." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflatourth at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-11T22:05:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sigh.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 1:39 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\n\nReturning to the Moby Dick analogy, one is reasonable in suggesting\nthat \"Moby Dick is God\" provided one does not mean \"Moby Dick, the\nwhale in the story, created the world in which the story takes place.\"\nThe ways in which Moby Dick can be God are much more interesting than\nthat. Likewise, the ways in which Urth can be Green are much more\ninteresting than the merely physical way in which it clearly can't." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is it for me. The interest in the resonance between Urth/Green and\nUshas/Blue (my preference there) is pretty much flattened if we are asked to\npretzel our understanding in order to make it literally true. The amount of\ngymnastics required to make it work are, to me, astounding...and yet it adds\nlittle to the thematic resonance which is already there, in existence, and\npretty clear (to me, to me, of course). The equation doesn't balance. If I\nfelt some really dramatic metaphoric or symbolic resonance was served by\nhaving them be literally the same, I might be more inclined to go with it\nwhere it leads. At this point, it actually flattens that resonance for me,\nand so I reject it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<985829.99233.qm@web84108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-01-11T22:21:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sigh.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Tue, 1/11/11, Jordon Flato wrote:\nFrom: Jordon Flato \nSubject: Re: (urth) Sigh.\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, January 11, 2011, 5:05 PM\n\nOn Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 1:39 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\n\n\n?Returning to the Moby Dick analogy, one is reasonable in suggesting\n\nthat \"Moby Dick is God\" provided one does not mean \"Moby Dick, the\n\nwhale in the story, created the world in which the story takes place.\"\n\nThe ways in which Moby Dick can be God are much more interesting than\n\nthat. Likewise, the ways in which Urth can be Green are much more\n\ninteresting than the merely physical way in which it clearly can't.\nThis is it for me. ?The interest in the resonance between Urth/Green and Ushas/Blue (my preference there) is pretty much flattened if we are asked to pretzel our understanding in order to make it literally true. The amount of gymnastics required to make it work are, to me, astounding...and yet it adds little to the thematic resonance which is already there, in existence, and pretty clear (to me, to me, of course). ?The equation doesn't balance. ?If I felt some really dramatic metaphoric or symbolic resonance was served by having them be literally the same, I might be more inclined to go with it where it leads. ?At this point, it actually flattens that resonance for me, and so I reject it.\n\nExactly. Plus, it's not literature. The proposed elaborate repetition of planetary duos is the kind of thing we have almost seen in various half-mad poets over the centuries ((Yeats, Blake), but even more, what we might imagine scribbled on the walls of insane asylums. In a word, an obsession. Wolfe is not even slightly mad.\nMarc: If Green is URTH, is Blue not?USHAS? That is, might Green represent the evil past (the corrupted Garden) and Blue the hopeful new world? Couldn't it be that simple?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflatourth at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-11T22:27:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sigh.", "in_reply_to": "<985829.99233.qm@web84108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc: If Green is URTH, is Blue not USHAS? That is, might Green represent\nthe evil past (the corrupted Garden) and Blue the hopeful new world?\nCouldn't it be that simple?\n\nDavid, this is exactly what I propose in another thread on this same topic.\n We're on at least very similar pages here.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-11T23:09:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sigh.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 11 de Jan de 2011, ?s 21:05, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Urth's sun, still red, is visible in the skies of Blue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Space-time is a strange place. Observers may be looking at their own star system far, far away. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D2CE87A.1030508@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-11T23:32:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sigh.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/11/2011 5:09 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nNo dia 11 de Jan de 2011, ?s 21:05, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Urth's sun, still red, is visible in the skies of Blue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Space-time is a strange place. Observers may be looking at their own star system far, far away." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When else do we see this happen?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<13442FAE-8D18-4B13-A4C5-8CAF5BD0FEFA@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-11T23:42:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sigh.", "in_reply_to": "<4D2CE87A.1030508@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 11 de Jan de 2011, ?s 23:32, Jeff Wilson escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/11/2011 5:09 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No dia 11 de Jan de 2011, ?s 21:05, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Urth's sun, still red, is visible in the skies of Blue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Space-time is a strange place. Observers may be looking at their own star system far, far away." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When else do we see this happen?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Someone with more motivation would have to sift the data for it. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<2E37B24E1FD54583842450135D43A735@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-12T00:23:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sigh.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Ant?nio Pedro Marques\" \nNo dia 11 de Jan de 2011, ?s 21:05, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \n escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Urth's sun, still red, is visible in the skies of Blue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Space-time is a strange place. Observers may be looking at their own star \nsystem far, far away." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's not really feasible for stars within a single galaxy - as far as I \ncan see you'd have to be in close orbit around a really gigantic black hole, \nwhich would fill most of the sky.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D2CFDEF.40909@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-12T01:03:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sigh.", "in_reply_to": "<2E37B24E1FD54583842450135D43A735@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/11/2011 6:23 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Ant?nio Pedro Marques\" \nNo dia 11 de Jan de 2011, ?s 21:05, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Urth's sun, still red, is visible in the skies of Blue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Space-time is a strange place. Observers may be looking at their own\nstar system far, far away." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's not really feasible for stars within a single galaxy - as far as\nI can see you'd have to be in close orbit around a really gigantic black\nhole, which would fill most of the sky." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A single black hole could not do it; by definition, it does not close \nthe path of light outside its event horizon. Several in a ring might do \nit , but they would be very noticeable.\n\nIf you allow negative curvature of space and time, you can do it easily, \nbut that implies interference from above by the Yesodis." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] } ] }