{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5897", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5897, "subject": "(no subject)", "messages": 14, "voices": 8, "first": "2011-01-14T03:23:04+00:00", "last": "2011-01-16T18:37:56+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-14T03:23:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: I have long been trying to figure out specifically what, if anything, \nWolfe was trying to get at with his depiction of a man who becomes a god \ncalled the Conciliator." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSome really great research David. I do think the aspect of Conciliator in this story has been \nsomewhat ignored. My own view is that myth, religion and legend find a number of concilators and\nSeverian partakes in many aspects of them (though many question Severian's status as a \"half-breed\").\nI generally find Severian somewhere in the mix between Hercules and Jesus, but I think your\nanalysis pins it down a bit more definitively from a Catholic perspective. Raising of the dead\nis another essential theme, which you address." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(The connection between \"lame\" and \"castrated\" is the theory that when a \nhero in literature is wounded in the \"thigh,\" that really means he's \nbeen rendered, er, drastically impotent---or at least that the two are \nrelated by proximity. A king who cannot ride and fight may still be able \nto sire an heir, but he's still cursed. BTW, has anyone wondered why \nSeverian and Valeria never had an heir?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThe mythic connection between lame and castrated is something I've never encountered before. Thank\nyou David!!!\n \nI have wondered more than once in these annals about the lack of pregnancy in Valeria. I guess we \ncould think of it as a pre-castration condition for the New Sun (what if he failed and faced castration;\nhe can't have already had a child).\n \n \nI have another rather obtuse interpretation for Valeria's barreness. Severian, following a generic Greek \nhero pattern, is like an anti-Oedipus. There is always at least some tiny clue that each woman Severian \nhas sex with is related to him. He is anti-Oedipus because, though cursed by incest, the one female family \nmember he doesn't have sex with is his mother.\n \nThe exception may be Valeria. Both Andre-Driussi and Borski find suggestion that Valeria may be related in\nsome manner to Catherine. So, perhaps, if Severian and Valeria led a chaste marriage, it was a way of breaking\nthe incest curse. Perhaps an unmentioned pre-requisite for Severian to qualify for New Sun staus.\n \nI'll go further on a limb by suggesting that incest can be considered the true Original Sin. It is the curse\nof all polytheistic pantheons of gods and goddesses (and the pharaonic dynasties they are patterned after).\nTheir only alternative to incest was beastiality with humans (commoners). Thus the mantle of moral superiority\nand the basis for sexual repression among monotheistic religions, esp. Christianity and Islam. \"at least our\nGod isn't dorking his sister!\".\n \nIt applies to Adam and Eve also. I argue that the forbidden knowledge they gained from the fruit was carnal\nknowledge (hence the fig leaves). We know Adam and Eve's kids had to be incestuous. But Adam and Eve themselves\nwere the closest of relatives- cloned, identical twins (if we science up the rib story).\n \nSome say there were some other people around for Adam and Eve's kids to mate with, in Nod, east of Eden.. But, \nas Dr. Talos' play implies, that gets into the Nephilim and fallen angel matings and stuff like that, which led \nto a Flood. There ARE some necessary dark sides to Creation and incest is one of them. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D3048E5.7090001@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-01-14T13:00:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/13/2011 10:23 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(The connection between \"lame\" and \"castrated\" is the theory that when a\nhero in literature is wounded in the \"thigh,\" that really means he's\nbeen rendered, er, drastically impotent---or at least that the two are\nrelated by proximity. A king who cannot ride and fight may still be able\nto sire an heir, but he's still cursed. BTW, has anyone wondered why\nSeverian and Valeria never had an heir?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The mythic connection between lame and castrated is something I've never encountered before. Thank\nyou David!!!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure! That's straight from /The Golden Bough/, a book of sheer nonsense \nthat is sure to set your brain on fire. Keep a small fire extinguisher \nhandy. ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have wondered more than once in these annals about the lack of pregnancy in Valeria. I guess we\ncould think of it as a pre-castration condition for the New Sun (what if he failed and faced castration;\nhe can't have already had a child)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, that kinda makes sense, and yet kinda doesn't quite explain it. Was \nSeverian simply informed that any heir he produced would be killed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " [snip]\nSome say there were some other people around for Adam and Eve's kids to mate with, in Nod, east of Eden.. But,\nas Dr. Talos' play implies, that gets into the Nephilim and fallen angel matings and stuff like that, which led\nto a Flood. There ARE some necessary dark sides to Creation and incest is one of them. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think gnosticism and alchemical principles such as holy incest are \ncloser to the core of the---what to call it, religious system?---in \nBOTNS. But gnosticism had no obsession with torture or death or force; \nthose features are purely medieval Christian. Taken together, it's \nalmost as though the Incarnation was dimly perceived but was responded \nto incorrectly---was terribly misunderstood.\n\nHow this dim perception might have occurred is another question." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D3057C8.4050305@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-14T14:03:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<4D3048E5.7090001@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 01/14/2011 07:00 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nTaken together, it's almost as though the Incarnation was dimly \nperceived but was responded to incorrectly---was terribly misunderstood.\n\nHow this dim perception might have occurred is another question." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Through a glass is how things are usually seen darkly.\n\nPerhaps a mirror.\n\nNow I'm having an image of The Last Supper, except that the apostles are \npoker-playing dogs, except that actually they're alzabos.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<356747.38788.qm@web84105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-01-14T15:03:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<4D3057C8.4050305@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps Witz can work something up for you with the Conciliator in the central seat. Maybe 2 feet by 4 feet?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Fri, 1/14/11, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nNow I'm having an image of The Last Supper, except that the\napostles are poker-playing dogs, except that actually\nthey're alzabos.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D3066C2.40404@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-14T15:07:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<4D3048E5.7090001@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (14-01-2011 13:00):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have wondered more than once in these annals about the lack of\npregnancy in Valeria. I guess we\ncould think of it as a pre-castration condition for the New Sun (what\nif he failed and faced castration;\nhe can't have already had a child)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, that kinda makes sense, and yet kinda doesn't quite explain it. Was\nSeverian simply informed that any heir he produced would be killed?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rather Sev produce heir -> Sev no gets called to Yosed (methinks)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<880742.64172.qm@web84107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-01-14T15:46:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<4D3066C2.40404@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On Fri, 1/14/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (14-01-2011\nSomeone else wrote" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I have wondered more than once in these annals\nabout the lack of pregnancy in Valeria. I guess we\ncould think of it as a pre-castration condition\nfor the New Sun (what if he failed and faced castration;\nhe can't have already had a child)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, that kinda makes sense, and yet kinda doesn't quite explain it. Was Severian simply informed that any heir he produced would be killed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rather Sev produce heir -> Sev no gets called to Yosed\n(methinks)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He must really want it, then, or has little interest in an heir. I suppose this is what the whole process of building his character toward respect for the highest authority points to: he chooses the authority vested in the Increate vs investing authority in an heir. \n\nOf course, that's assuming he could get an heir through the \"coronation\" process to begin with, AND assuming he didn't know any children might be drowned before adulthood. All these are disincentives. \n\nPlus, Severian already had a son and he killed him (ahem)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D3078D4.9040004@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-14T16:24:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<4D3066C2.40404@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/14/2011 9:07 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (14-01-2011 13:00):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I have wondered more than once in these annals about the lack of\npregnancy in Valeria. I guess we\ncould think of it as a pre-castration condition for the New Sun (what\nif he failed and faced castration;\nhe can't have already had a child)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, that kinda makes sense, and yet kinda doesn't quite explain it. Was\nSeverian simply informed that any heir he produced would be killed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rather Sev produce heir -> Sev no gets called to Yosed (methinks)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It makes sense to not bother asking people to destroy the world if their \nkids are on it, esp when you have the freedom to move in time to the \nones who don't have kids. In this vein, Inire or whomever also seems to \nseek out candidates who have as few other family ties as possible (Ymar, \n\"Appian\") and are practiced at hardening themselves to human suffering \n(Ymar was a jailer, \"Appian\" served under the honey steward and so was \nprobably complicit in the Antechamber detention to the point of \ndelivering the pastries and coffee himself)." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<849432.97554.qm@web114707.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-01-14T16:58:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<4D3057C8.4050305@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Adam Thornton \n\nOn 01/14/2011 07:00 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Taken together, it's almost as though the Incarnation was dimly perceived but \nwas responded to incorrectly---was terribly misunderstood.\n\nHow this dim perception might have occurred is another question." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Through a glass is how things are usually seen darkly.\n\nPerhaps a mirror.\n\nNow I'm having an image of The Last Supper, except that the apostles are \npoker-playing dogs, except that actually they're alzabos." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do alzabos eat poker champions to improve their skills?\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<786582.90225.qm@web84108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-01-14T17:00:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<4D3078D4.9040004@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Fri, 1/14/11, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 1/14/2011 9:07 AM, Ant?nio Pedro\nMarques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (14-01-2011 13:00):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I have wondered more than once in these annals\nabout the lack of\npregnancy in Valeria. I guess we\ncould think of it as a pre-castration\ncondition for the New Sun (what\nif he failed and faced castration;\nhe can't have already had a child)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yes, that kinda makes sense, and yet kinda doesn't\nquite explain it. Was\nSeverian simply informed that any heir he produced\nwould be killed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Rather Sev produce heir -> Sev no gets called to\nYosed (methinks)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It makes sense to not bother asking people to destroy the\nworld if their kids are on it, esp when you have the freedom\nto move in time to the ones who don't have kids. In this\nvein, Inire or whomever also seems to seek out candidates\nwho have as few other family ties as possible (Ymar,\n\"Appian\") and are practiced at hardening themselves to human\nsuffering (Ymar was a jailer, \"Appian\" served under the\nhoney steward and so was probably complicit in the\nAntechamber detention to the point of delivering the\npastries and coffee himself)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True. But (1) there is Valeria (2) we have no evidence Severian knew what would happen if he succeeded---though one can certainly find grounds to suspect he did, not least the fact that he never denies it directly in his own autobiography. OTOH, I would almost expect lies from the Heirodudes, but Inire might have warned him.\n\nI can think of few rulers who have shown any real concern for human suffering. Autarchs, by their natures, might actually be expected to be _more_ empathetic than, say, Roman emperors, so maybe this \"hardening\" is a red herring and the only operating principle is \"we obey.\" Still, Severian has no family and perhaps more enemies than friends outside the Guild.\n\nAs for the lameness, it need not be taken literally that Severian and his rule will be sterile; it could be symbolic, just as his sacrifice is symbolic, since he returns from the other side (sort of).\n\nLee: Briefly, \"The sacrificial/sacral/divine king has an obligation to sacrifice himself for the good of his people and the land. The maimed/Fisher king is a danger to his people as he might cause the kingdom to become a wasteland.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-14T21:18:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff:\n(The connection between \"lame\" and \"castrated\" is the theory that when a\nhero in literature is wounded in the \"thigh,\" that really means he's\nbeen rendered, er, drastically impotent---or at least that the two are\nrelated by proximity. A king who cannot ride and fight may still be able\nto sire an heir, but he's still cursed. BTW, has anyone wondered why\nSeverian and Valeria never had an heir?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The mythic connection between lame and castrated is something I've never \nencountered before. Thank\nyou David!!!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian may exaggerate his sexual prowess, but he does not indicate that he \nis unable to perform sexually, as one would expect of a castrated man. It \nseems unlikely that he would particularly desire a child from any of his \nsexual encounters in BotNS. If contraceptive technology has not been lost \nin Severian's time, it may not have been much of a concern.." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have wondered more than once in these annals about the lack of pregnancy \nin Valeria. I guess we\ncould think of it as a pre-castration condition for the New Sun (what if \nhe failed and faced castration;\nhe can't have already had a child).\n\nI have another rather obtuse interpretation for Valeria's barreness. \nSeverian, following a generic Greek\nhero pattern, is like an anti-Oedipus. There is always at least some tiny \nclue that each woman Severian\nhas sex with is related to him. He is anti-Oedipus because, though cursed \nby incest, the one female family\nmember he doesn't have sex with is his mother." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just as there is some tiny clue that everyome is a character from Dr. Who, \nif you are looking for such clues.\n\nIf all Severian's lovers in BotNS are close relatives, his family would seem \nto be extraordinarily diverse and geographically dispersed. His lovers are \nspread (so to speak) from the slums of Nessus to the Autarch's Palace to \nvillages in the interior and the minor aristocracy of provincial towns. They \ninclude pureborn exultants and those who are apparently lowborn, and some \nwho are in between. If we include UotNS, we may add a woman from thousands \nof years in the past, and a female creature not borm on Urth, nor even in \nUrth's universe. But even leaving these two aside, the thesis seems \nimprobable to say the least.\n\nFurthermore, apart from Dorcas there is just one woman mentioned in the \nstory whom most agree is plausibly a close relative of Severian's. That is \nMerryn - and there is no indication that Severian has sexual relations with \nher. If Wolfe intended to indicate that Severian's lovers were hidden \nrelatives, leaving Merryn out appears rather bizarre!\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<68500.40276.qm@web84102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-01-14T21:42:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Fri, 1/14/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nSeverian may exaggerate his sexual prowess, but he does not\nindicate that he is unable to perform sexually, as one would\nexpect of a castrated man. It seems unlikely that he\nwould particularly desire a child from any of his sexual\nencounters in BotNS. If contraceptive technology has\nnot been lost in Severian's time, it may not have been much\nof a concern.." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed, he does not indicate that he is unable to perform sexually, ... just as one would expect of a man writing his autobiography." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "His lovers are spread (so to speak)?...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nicely done!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D30DD5C.90004@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2011-01-14T23:33:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lameness (was: Re: (no subject) )", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 14/01/11 03:23, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nThe mythic connection between lame and castrated is something I've never encountered before. Thank\nyou David!!!\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've mentioned this on list once before but this seems pertinent again - \nRobert Graves invokes both interpretations of the 'wounded in the thigh' \ntrope for the Messiah, in his novel 'King Jesus'. Here, Jesus is, and \nknows he is, the rightful King of the Jews. As such, he undergoes a \ntrial by combat on the eve of his coronation/wedding day; during this \ntrial, one of his hips is knocked out of joint, producing a permanent \nlameness which is regarded as a prerequisite for his destined role \n(there are references also to Jacob's combat with the angel, during \nwhich the Patriarch was 'wounded in the thigh' - Jesus is apparently \nsupposed to recapitulate the role of his ancient ancestor in his ritual \ncombat).\n\nGraves was an early 20th century advocate of the persistence of mythic \ntropes (post James Frazer, but largely pre Gustav Jung); he wrote 'The \nWhite Goddess' amongst other volumes as tribute to the ultimate Muse, \n(according to him) the (female) source of all (male-authored) poetry.\n\n(Goodness me, was R.G. uncomfortable with the fact of the existence of \nSappho, one of the world's greatest ever poets, who just happens to have \nbeen female ... ! )\n\nHe presents a Jesus who has been born to be the dying-and-rising Corn \nKing, husband of the White Goddess, but who rejects his role, and even \nafter his ritual combat and consequent lameness refuses to fulfill that \nrole by consummating his predestined marriage to the Goddess's \nincarnation on earth, Mary Magdalene.\n\nBy refusing to do his 'duty', Jesus in Graves's work subverts his role \nfrom that of sacrificial King of the Harvest, into Saviour of the World. \nNo, I'm not entirely sure even now just exactly how that is supposed to \nwork either :) However there may be a link here with the Sun Cycle since \nin BoTNS although Sev makes love to many women, he has no physical heir; \nand it's not entirely clear that his marriage to Valeria was ever \nconsummated at all (I well remember on reading UoTNS for the first time \nthat I thought I knew exactly why Sev keeps referring to 'poor Valeria', \nnamely that I assumed he had always been impotent with her as he never \nhad been with other women; and then I remember my dismay on re-reading \nthe work from the beginning to find that there was absolutely no support \nfor this assumption in the text! Still not sure where that came from.).\n\nThe lameness theme is stressed too much to be merely accidental, \nhowever. Silk is lame as well - and although he marries, and obviously \nloves his wife so much that he overlooks her shortcomings (she's a \nprostitute, she's violent - I think it's Horn, after his melding with \nthe dying Silk, who refers to her as 'beautiful, savage Hyacinth' or \nsomething like); and he still feels soiled after making love to her, \neven though they are married. And of course, they never have children \neither, even though years have passed after the end of Long Sun before \nHorn is returned to the Whorl in Silk's body.\n\nI've no idea what (if anything) all of this means in terms of GW's \nthinking, but at the least it does appear to be relevant in terms of the \nSun Cycle's multitudinous lamed messiah / Fisher King references.\n\njd" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D310E4E.3040204@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-01-15T03:02:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lameness", "in_reply_to": "<4D30DD5C.90004@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/14/2011 6:33 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:\nHe presents a Jesus who has been born to be the dying-and-rising Corn \nKing, husband of the White Goddess, but who rejects his role, and even \nafter his ritual combat and consequent lameness refuses to fulfill \nthat role by consummating his predestined marriage to the Goddess's \nincarnation on earth, Mary Magdalene." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Corn\" meaning \"grain\" but perfectly extendable to \"maize\" .... that \ngrain with yellow silk." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "... (I well remember on reading UoTNS for the first time that I \nthought I knew exactly why Sev keeps referring to 'poor Valeria', \nnamely that I assumed he had always been impotent with her as he never \nhad been with other women; and then I remember my dismay on re-reading \nthe work from the beginning to find that there was absolutely no \nsupport for this assumption in the text! Still not sure where that \ncame from.)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had the very same thought my very first time. We both must have read \nit somewhere else---is it a classic Victorian indirection?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The lameness theme is stressed too much to be merely accidental, \nhowever. ....\n\nI've no idea what (if anything) all of this means in terms of GW's \nthinking, but at the least it does appear to be relevant in terms of \nthe Sun Cycle's multitudinous lamed messiah / Fisher King references." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess if you have a wasteland of any kind, there must be a lame king. \nAnd Urth is such, else why Conciliate? The Whorl too is broken/has \nbroken with its people." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D333B04.6020303@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-16T18:37:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lameness", "in_reply_to": "<4D30DD5C.90004@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/14/2011 5:33 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:\nBy refusing to do his 'duty', Jesus in Graves's work subverts his role\nfrom that of sacrificial King of the Harvest, into Saviour of the World.\nNo, I'm not entirely sure even now just exactly how that is supposed to\nwork either :)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "By ending the cycle, he raise the stakes from yearly prosperity to \nsempiternal posterity: all or nothing brinksmanship? Ormuzd makes \nAhriman the same sort of proposition." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] } ] }