{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5908", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5908, "subject": "The green man is a fake", "messages": 48, "voices": 14, "first": "2011-01-16T17:03:33+00:00", "last": "2011-01-19T03:42:06+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-16T17:03:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Since the list has taken a turn toward hard science it might be time to expose\nthe green man for the carnival huckster he really is. There is no way for internal\nalgae to provide the energy requirements of a warm blooded animal. Simply no way. \nThe surface to volume ratio of a solid being is part of it. Trees need thousands of\nflat leaves (or 10x the number of needles) to achieve their energy needs and they don't \nhave a fraction of the energy costs of a being which moves and stays warm. Moreover,\ntrees have massive reserves of stored energy that a human-sized body couldn't come\nclose to.\n \nNo quibble about \"new, high efficiency chlorphyll..\" blah blah. Our green plants already \nhave a very high energy conversion efficiency after half a billion years of competition and \nnatural selection (much higher efficiency than animal energy conversion). There are laws of\nphysics to follow. You can't convert more than 100% of received sunlight energy into sugar \nand ATP energy. \n \nThe amount of sunlight hitting the area of human skin is not enough energty to allow \nhomeothermy and movement. And we know that the Green Man is a walker through the corridors\nof time, which requires energy approaching full stellar output. Something is not right with\nthis guy.\n \nIt could be argued that Wolfe was aware of these problems but created a fictional green man anyway\njust because he is a cool character. I'd be happy with this explanation except the green man\nis not a cool guy. He is a self-admitted liar and he has the creepy laugh that is even worse\nthan the alzabo's. What purpose does this laugh serve? He also fails to live up to his promise\nto rescue Severian in repayment for being rescued by him.\n \nThere is a religious figure called The Green Man, associated with Dionysus and Great God Pan\nand other pagan deities. Some Christians associate this guy with a certain, trickster, a liar\nThe Great Deceiver. I'm not sure if Ushas or Green is this guy's goal for Urth but I think we\nshould be very leery in considering His future to be the right path. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<974787.85560.qm@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-01-16T17:24:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sun, 1/16/11, Lee Berman wrote:\nWhat purpose does this laugh serve? He\nalso fails to live up to his promise\nto rescue Severian in repayment for being rescued by him.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought he saved him obliquely, or tried to, in Urth of the New Sun, doesn't he? Or did he show up too late? I have a very poor memory of Uth, though. The laugh and the comment that the demons describe Ushas in the play are disconcerting, as is, you know the contradictory idea at the end of citadel that Sev thinks both the high and the low must be preserved, and winds up wiping out pretty much both.\n\nBut people are still people, and that evil inside man seems pretty universal, as does his good. The green man is at best ambiguous (is it stated he absolutely can't supplement his chlorophyl with the old gastric digestive system? Is he completely plant-like in energy or can he eat if he has to?)\n\nYeah too many weird negative associations with his description. I say, he is at best ambiguous, at worst ... bleh.\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-16T17:58:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you're absolutely right in your scientific analysis of the green\nman. But perhaps Wolfe just did not think things through as you have done.\n Even Homer nods." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\nSince the list has taken a turn toward hard science it might be time to\nexpose\nthe green man for the carnival huckster he really is. There is no way for\ninternal\nalgae to provide the energy requirements of a warm blooded animal. Simply\nno way.\nThe surface to volume ratio of a solid being is part of it. Trees need\nthousands of\nflat leaves (or 10x the number of needles) to achieve their energy needs\nand they don't\nhave a fraction of the energy costs of a being which moves and stays warm.\nMoreover,\ntrees have massive reserves of stored energy that a human-sized body\ncouldn't come\nclose to.\n\nNo quibble about \"new, high efficiency chlorphyll..\" blah blah. Our green\nplants already\nhave a very high energy conversion efficiency after half a billion years of\ncompetition and\nnatural selection (much higher efficiency than animal energy conversion).\nThere are laws of\nphysics to follow. You can't convert more than 100% of received sunlight\nenergy into sugar\nand ATP energy.\n\nThe amount of sunlight hitting the area of human skin is not enough energty\nto allow\nhomeothermy and movement. And we know that the Green Man is a walker\nthrough the corridors\nof time, which requires energy approaching full stellar output. Something\nis not right with\nthis guy.\n\nIt could be argued that Wolfe was aware of these problems but created a\nfictional green man anyway\njust because he is a cool character. I'd be happy with this explanation\nexcept the green man\nis not a cool guy. He is a self-admitted liar and he has the creepy laugh\nthat is even worse\nthan the alzabo's. What purpose does this laugh serve? He also fails to\nlive up to his promise\nto rescue Severian in repayment for being rescued by him.\n\nThere is a religious figure called The Green Man, associated with Dionysus\nand Great God Pan\nand other pagan deities. Some Christians associate this guy with a certain,\ntrickster, a liar\nThe Great Deceiver. I'm not sure if Ushas or Green is this guy's goal for\nUrth but I think we\nshould be very leery in considering His future to be the right path.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-16T18:01:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nThe amount of sunlight hitting the area of human skin is not enough \nenergty to allow\nhomeothermy and movement. And we know that the Green Man is a walker \nthrough the corridors\nof time, which requires energy approaching full stellar output. Something \nis not right with\nthis guy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Correct about homeothermy and movement. As has been noted before, Wolfe is \nnot writing hard SF, for most authors of which this would be a slight \nstumbling block. As for Severian's even more thermodynamically challenging \ncapabilities such as resurrection of the dead and walking the corridors of \ntime, it is not really clear how much energy it requires. The merchanism \nused by the Green Man appears to be different anyway, as he can apparently \nrange through a wider period of time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It could be argued that Wolfe was aware of these problems but created a \nfictional green man anyway\njust because he is a cool character. I'd be happy with this explanation \nexcept the green man\nis not a cool guy. He is a self-admitted liar and he has the creepy laugh \nthat is even worse\nthan the alzabo's. What purpose does this laugh serve? He also fails to \nlive up to his promise\nto rescue Severian in repayment for being rescued by him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The laughter is easily explained as expressing the Green Man's \ndisappointment and despair after he had briefly hoped in Severian, and then \nfound him to be an ignorant primitive babbling about a New Sun of which the \ngreen Man had no knowledge (because in his time it is forgotten). And he \nnever promises to rescue Severrian. He does help Severian with information, \nwhich proves to be correct. And that's basically all we know about him. \nSeems cool enough to me.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D334917.1060306@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-16T19:37:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/16/2011 12:01 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nFrom: \"Lee Berman\" \nThe amount of sunlight hitting the area of human skin is not enough\nenergty to allow\nhomeothermy and movement." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Preaching to the choir, though I hadn't posted about this since you were \nyclept bsharp." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And we know that the Green Man is a walker\nthrough the corridors\nof time, which requires energy approaching full stellar output." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If it does, that coming from the the White Fountain seems sufficient." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Something is not right with\nthis guy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Correct about homeothermy and movement. As has been noted before, Wolfe\nis not writing hard SF, for most authors of which this would be a slight\nstumbling block. As for Severian's even more thermodynamically\nchallenging capabilities such as resurrection of the dead and walking\nthe corridors of time, it is not really clear how much energy it\nrequires. The merchanism used by the Green Man appears to be different\nanyway, as he can apparently range through a wider period of time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe. They are both firmly identified as Corridor walkers and the light \nof the White Fountain extends forward into the time of Ushas, so both \ncould be fountain-powered. This would be a good reason to have greenness \nthat can't feed you, if only to connect to that light without benefit of \nSeverian's terminated bloodline." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It could be argued that Wolfe was aware of these problems but created\na fictional green man anyway\njust because he is a cool character. I'd be happy with this\nexplanation except the green man\nis not a cool guy. He is a self-admitted liar and he has the creepy\nlaugh that is even worse\nthan the alzabo's. What purpose does this laugh serve? He also fails\nto live up to his promise\nto rescue Severian in repayment for being rescued by him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The laughter is easily explained as expressing the Green Man's\ndisappointment and despair after he had briefly hoped in Severian, and\nthen found him to be an ignorant primitive babbling about a New Sun of\nwhich the green Man had no knowledge (because in his time it is\nforgotten). And he never promises to rescue Severrian. He does help\nSeverian with information, which proves to be correct. And that's\nbasically all we know about him. Seems cool enough to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, at least as cool as Severian, who is also a self-admitted liar, \nself-admitted cannibal, and comitter of genocide (no one left to admit \nthat to). Nasty laugh? Imagine what kind of cackle you get out of a guy \nwho shares his cranium with the lover whose death he was a party to \n(twice) and his hated pimp-king who rubber-stamped her death warrant. \n\"Worse than the alzabo\" - at least the victimhood is temporary for the \nbeast, not so the analeptic." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D335740.8050402@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-16T20:38:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "<4D334917.1060306@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Lee Berman-\nThe amount of sunlight hitting the area of human skin is not enough\nenergty to allow\nhomeothermy and movement." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson-\nPreaching to the choir, though I hadn't posted about this since you \nwere yclept bsharp." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but one must allow the possibility that artifically manufactured \nalgae could leverage the sunlight to get more oomph. Even today, people \nboost the idea of solar energy replacing carbon fuels in all our \nvehicles and homes. They expect this even though after 3.5 billion years \nof evolution no creature that uses a significant amount of energy (like \nsay a really lazy alligator) relies on solar energy even primarily. They \nall rely on carbon fuels and --at best-- gain supplementary energy from \nthe sun. Yet, hope in technological breakthroughs springs eternal. And, \nthis is, after all a sci-fi story.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D336114.7060307@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-01-16T21:20:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "<4D335740.8050402@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And sci-fi is a religion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/16/2011 3:38 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n\nYes, but one must allow the possibility that artifically manufactured \nalgae could leverage the sunlight to get more oomph. Even today, \npeople boost the idea of solar energy replacing carbon fuels in all \nour vehicles and homes. They expect this even though after 3.5 billion \nyears of evolution no creature that uses a significant amount of \nenergy (like say a really lazy alligator) relies on solar energy even \nprimarily. They all rely on carbon fuels and --at best-- gain \nsupplementary energy from the sun. Yet, hope in technological \nbreakthroughs springs eternal. And, this is, after all a sci-fi story." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-16T21:46:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "<4D335740.8050402@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As it has already been said \"The amount of sunlight hitting the area of human skin is not enough energty to allow homeothermy and movement\". What that means is that it is physically impossible to harvest enough energy from the sun for a body with such a mass/surface area ratio to support him to such an extent. Artificial algae won't change that. Alo, I seem to remember that the Green Man is not supposed to eat, etc. It's almost as if Wolfe forgot that photosynthesis is a source of energy but photosynthetic organisms still need \"food\" for structural building (growth) in the form of other nutrients. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2011 14:38:24 -0600\nFrom: crushtv at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) The green man is a fake" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Lee Berman-\nThe amount of sunlight hitting the area of human skin is not enough\nenergty to allow\nhomeothermy and movement." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson-\nPreaching to the choir, though I hadn't posted about this since you \nwere yclept bsharp." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but one must allow the possibility that artifically manufactured \nalgae could leverage the sunlight to get more oomph. Even today, people \nboost the idea of solar energy replacing carbon fuels in all our \nvehicles and homes. They expect this even though after 3.5 billion years \nof evolution no creature that uses a significant amount of energy (like \nsay a really lazy alligator) relies on solar energy even primarily. They \nall rely on carbon fuels and --at best-- gain supplementary energy from \nthe sun. Yet, hope in technological breakthroughs springs eternal. And, \nthis is, after all a sci-fi story.\n\nu+16b9\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D33720B.4050005@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-16T22:32:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, but one must allow the possibility that artifically manufactured\nalgae could leverage the sunlight to get more oomph." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pedro Pereira wrote:\nAs it has already been said \"The amount of sunlight hitting the area \nof human skin is not enough energty to allow\nhomeothermy and movement\". What that means is that it is physically \nimpossible to harvest enough energy from the sun\nfor a body with such a mass/surface area ratio to support him to such \nan extent. Artificial algae won't change that.\nAlo, I seem to remember that the Green Man is not supposed to eat, \netc. It's almost as if Wolfe forgot that photosynthesis\nis a source of energy but photosynthetic organisms still need \"food\" " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "for structural building (growth) in the form of" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "other nutrients." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "1) There's plenty of room in Severian's encounter with the Green Man for \nundiscussed feeding processes that included taking organic that did not \nrequire killing.\n\n2) Notice I used the word \"leverage\". What I'm suggesting is that it is \ntheoretically possible that the Green Men's algae use the sunlight to \ntap power unavailable to us at this time (just as could be said of \nnuclear power plants in 1880). If serious people can imagine an economy \nrunning on solar power, Wolfe is not too far out there. This reminds me \nof ancient philosophers saying that it is impossible that the Earth \nrotates because the resulting wind would blow us all off the planet. It \nalso reminds me of Wolfe's answer to those who said the Godling's \nanatomy was impossible. He responded [paraphrasing] \"That's only true \nif the godling were constructed along the same lines as a human [...] I \nweary of people making claims about the limits of biological potential.\"\n\nu+16b9" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2011 14:38:24 -0600\nFrom: crushtv at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) The green man is a fake" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Lee Berman-\nThe amount of sunlight hitting the area of human skin is not enough\nenergty to allow\nhomeothermy and movement." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jeff Wilson-\nPreaching to the choir, though I hadn't posted about this since you\nwere yclept bsharp." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, but one must allow the possibility that artifically manufactured\nalgae could leverage the sunlight to get more oomph. Even today, people\nboost the idea of solar energy replacing carbon fuels in all our\nvehicles and homes. They expect this even though after 3.5 billion \nyears\nof evolution no creature that uses a significant amount of energy (like\nsay a really lazy alligator) relies on solar energy even primarily. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They\nall rely on carbon fuels and --at best-- gain supplementary energy from\nthe sun. Yet, hope in technological breakthroughs springs eternal. And,\nthis is, after all a sci-fi story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "u+16b9\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D3372B1.1020001@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-16T22:35:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nFrom: \"Lee Berman\" \nThe amount of sunlight hitting the area of human skin is not enough\nenergty to allow\nhomeothermy and movement. And we know that the Green Man is a walker\nthrough the corridors\nof time, which requires energy approaching full stellar output." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Something is not right with\nthis guy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Correct about homeothermy and movement. As has been noted before, Wolfe\nis not writing hard SF, for most authors of which this would be a slight\nstumbling block." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "- Who says the green man lives only on photosynthesis\n- Who says the green man only uses chlorophyll-based photosynthesis (other, \nparallel pigments can make use of other wavelengths)\n- Who says more intense radiation can't lead to different photosynthetic \nstrategies (heck, even our plants have 3 types)\n- Who says photosynthesis is the only path to autotrophy\n- Who says the green man isn't engineered to be more efficient in his \nstorage of energy\n- Who says the green man isn't engineered to be more efficient in his usage \nof energy\n\n(Interestingly, one corollary of your idea is that a moving, talking plant \nis an evolutionary impossibility.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D337EA8.5080600@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-16T23:26:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "<4D335740.8050402@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/16/2011 2:38 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Lee Berman-\nThe amount of sunlight hitting the area of human skin is not enough\nenergty to allow\nhomeothermy and movement." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson-\nPreaching to the choir, though I hadn't posted about this since you\nwere yclept bsharp." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but one must allow the possibility that artifically manufactured\nalgae could leverage the sunlight to get more oomph." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even at 100% conversion efficiency, each day a person-sized patch of \nsunlit earth receives about 1/30 of the energy a normally active person \ntakes from a day's worth of food. Maybe it is used instead to synthesize \ndietary supplements to make it easier to be life-long vegans?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<427784.4810.qm@web114705.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-01-17T00:31:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "<4D3372B1.1020001@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \n The amount of sunlight hitting the area of human skin is not enough\n energty to allow homeothermy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do we know he's homeothermic? I suppose when he took one of Severian's\narms to help him escape from the Ascians, Severian might have noticed if\nhis hand had been cold, though he was drugged." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "and movement. And we know that the Green Man is a walker\nthrough the corridors\nof time, which requires energy approaching full stellar output.\nSomething is not right with this guy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Correct about homeothermy and movement. As has been noted before, Wolfe\nis not writing hard SF, for most authors of which this would be a slight\nstumbling block." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- Who says the green man lives only on photosynthesis" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The green man comes pretty close.\n\n\"The green color... is only what you call pond scum. We have altered it until \nit can\nlive in our blood... the tiny plants live and die, and our bodies feed from them \nand\ntheir dead and require no other nourishment.\"\n\n(No other nourishment? No minerals?)\n\nIt's hard to think of another energy source algae inside the body could have." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- Who says the green man only uses chlorophyll-based photosynthesis (other, \nparallel pigments can make use of other wavelengths)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He's \"the color of pale jade\". This means he absorbs less visible light than \ncurrent\nplants (Ribes?). If Wolfe had said \"blackish jade\", it would have been a step \nin the\ndirection of plausibility." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- Who says more intense radiation can't lead to different photosynthetic \nstrategies (heck, even our plants have 3 types)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It would have to be many times more intense. Mirrors in space? Another white \nhole or two?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- Who says photosynthesis is the only path to autotrophy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What else is there? He doesn't seem adapted to use wind power. Getting one's \ninternal\nalgae to parasitize plants through what looks (and probably feels) like human \nskin would\nbe a really, really good trick." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- Who says the green man isn't engineered to be more efficient in his storage \nof energy\n- Who says the green man isn't engineered to be more efficient in his usage of \nenergy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's not enough at 100% efficiency, as Jeff said.\n\nHowever, I'm imagining a world with many fusion plants powering LEDs that shine \non\ngreen people as they sleep. Including shining on them from below through \ntransparent\nwater or air mattresses.\n\nHowever however, I suspect Wolfe just committed the Sin Against Niven and didn't\nthink it through." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(Interestingly, one corollary of your idea is that a moving, talking plant is \nan evolutionary impossibility.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If by \"plant\" you mean \"something that gets most of its energy from \nphotosynthesis on Earth\nas it is now\", it would have to move a lot less than us.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-17T00:46:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "<427784.4810.qm@web114705.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2011 16:31:14 -0800\nFrom: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) The green man is a fake" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "- Who says more intense radiation can't lead to different photosynthetic \nstrategies (heck, even our plants have 3 types)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It would have to be many times more intense. Mirrors in space? Another white \nhole or two?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "- Who says photosynthesis is the only path to autotrophy" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What else is there? He doesn't seem adapted to use wind power. Getting one's \ninternal\nalgae to parasitize plants through what looks (and probably feels) like human \nskin would\nbe a really, really good trick." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nTruth be told, there are other things: chemosynthesis, which many bacteria and archaea use. However it doesn't solve the problem in any way, so you're right anyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "- Who says the green man isn't engineered to be more efficient in his storage \nof energy\n- Who says the green man isn't engineered to be more efficient in his usage of \nenergy" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's not enough at 100% efficiency, as Jeff said.\n\nHowever, I'm imagining a world with many fusion plants powering LEDs that shine \non\ngreen people as they sleep. Including shining on them from below through \ntransparent\nwater or air mattresses.\n\nHowever however, I suspect Wolfe just committed the Sin Against Niven and didn't\nthink it through." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(Interestingly, one corollary of your idea is that a moving, talking plant is \nan evolutionary impossibility.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If by \"plant\" you mean \"something that gets most of its energy from \nphotosynthesis on Earth\nas it is now\", it would have to move a lot less than us." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI agree fully. \n \nPedro \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D339205.5070805@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-17T00:49:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "<4D3372B1.1020001@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/16/2011 4:35 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n(Interestingly, one corollary of your idea is that a moving, talking\nplant is an evolutionary impossibility.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "perhaps not; an evergreen could become animated a few weeks a year, or a \nfew months if it could deploy broad leaves for sun and furl them for \nactivity, perhaps like a peacock's tail. Developing language would take \nproportionately longer." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1B56F07BC973400882DB15AE5D82C420@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-17T00:53:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "<4D334917.1060306@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nOn 1/16/2011 12:01 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Correct about homeothermy and movement. As has been noted before, Wolfe\nis not writing hard SF, for most authors of which this would be a slight\nstumbling block. As for Severian's even more thermodynamically\nchallenging capabilities such as resurrection of the dead and walking\nthe corridors of time, it is not really clear how much energy it\nrequires. The merchanism used by the Green Man appears to be different\nanyway, as he can apparently range through a wider period of time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe. They are both firmly identified as Corridor walkers and the light \nof the White Fountain extends forward into the time of Ushas, so both \ncould be fountain-powered. This would be a good reason to have greenness \nthat can't feed you, if only to connect to that light without benefit of \nSeverian's terminated bloodline." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My impression was that Severian's ability to walk the corridors terminated \nwith the formation of Ushas, but I could be wrong. One obvious possibility \n(probability, even?) is that the white and black holes cancel, so neither \nexists after the merger.\n\nFurthermore, Severian has a personal link to the White Fountain. Nobody \nelse in his time can access its power. Why should Green Men from the future \nbe able to use it? Seemingly, they don;t even know that the Sun has been \nrestored anyway, which also indicates that they have found some other means \nof walking the Corridors.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<641904.90696.qm@web114706.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-01-17T01:13:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "<4D33720B.4050005@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1) There's plenty of room in Severian's encounter with the Green Man for \nundiscussed feeding processes that included taking organic that did not \nrequire killing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHe says they get no nourishment except from the algae." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) Notice I used the word \"leverage\". What I'm suggesting is that it is \ntheoretically possible that the Green Men's algae use the sunlight to tap \npower unavailable to us at this time\n(just as could be said of nuclear power plants in 1880)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Like Antonio, you're leaving us to fill in your interesting suggestion. Green \npeople\nare yesodotrophs?\n\nWhy would Wolfe hide something so cool from us? And if any energy\nsource could be tapped in proportion to solar power, algae seem like an odd\nmechanism for it. Sympathetic magic?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If serious people can imagine an economy running on solar \npower, Wolfe is not too far out there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some arcane source of energy for the green man's algae strikes me as\nway, way more hard-science-fictionally believable than the alzabo and its\nanalept. Or even the notule, which prefers the heat of living creatures.\n\nOn solar power, Wikipedia notes (with sources if anyone wants to check) that\nmore solar energy hits the Earth every hour than humanity used in the whole\nyear 2002. \"All\" that's necessary is technological breakthroughs, as Jeff\nWilson implied. I see this as in a quite different category from that unknown\nsource of energy that algae can tap in proportion to the solar energy they\nget." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This reminds me of ancient \nphilosophers saying that it is impossible that the Earth rotates because the \n\nresulting wind would blow us all off the planet. It also reminds me of \nWolfe's answer to those who said the Godling's anatomy was impossible. He \nresponded [paraphrasing] \"That's only true if the godling were \nconstructed \n\nalong the same lines as a human [...] I weary of people making claims about " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the limits of biological potential.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But at least that second comparison is unfair. Tapping some unknown source\nof energy is hardly biology in the way that giant fossil birds and pterodactyls \nare.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D339BCD.2070205@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-17T01:30:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "<427784.4810.qm@web114705.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: Ant?nio Pedro Marques" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\"\n The amount of sunlight hitting the area of human skin is not enough\n energty to allow homeothermy" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do we know he's homeothermic? I suppose when he took one of Severian's\narms to help him escape from the Ascians, Severian might have noticed if\nhis hand had been cold, though he was drugged." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "and movement. And we know that the Green Man is a walker\nthrough the corridors\nof time, which requires energy approaching full stellar output.\nSomething is not right with this guy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Correct about homeothermy and movement. As has been noted before, Wolfe\nis not writing hard SF, for most authors of which this would be a slight\nstumbling block." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "- Who says the green man lives only on photosynthesis" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The green man comes pretty close.\n\n\"The green color... is only what you call pond scum. We have altered it until\nit can\nlive in our blood... the tiny plants live and die, and our bodies feed from them\nand\ntheir dead and require no other nourishment.\"\n\n(No other nourishment? No minerals?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " From there one can see that's not the whole story, as indeed was to be \nexpected - is he going to embark on a lecture on his biology to Severian? \nNot likely. Should he have a dozen adaptations in his organism, will he \ndescribe them to Severian in terms the latter wouldn't even understand? Or \nwould he pick on the most visible thing, which happens to be easy to \nexplain, and offer it for the whole package?\n\nAlso 'require' may mean they can survive without it, but not necessarily do \neverything. Think of a hybrid vehicle in electric mode.\n\nOf course, some minerals are required in very minute quantities, but that's \nonly some minerals." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's hard to think of another energy source algae inside the body could have." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "- Who says the green man only uses chlorophyll-based photosynthesis (other,\nparallel pigments can make use of other wavelengths)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He's \"the color of pale jade\". This means he absorbs less visible light than\ncurrent\nplants (Ribes?). If Wolfe had said \"blackish jade\", it would have been a step\nin the\ndirection of plausibility." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "- Who says more intense radiation can't lead to different photosynthetic\nstrategies (heck, even our plants have 3 types)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It would have to be many times more intense. Mirrors in space? Another white\nhole or two?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "- Who says photosynthesis is the only path to autotrophy" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What else is there? He doesn't seem adapted to use wind power. Getting one's\ninternal\nalgae to parasitize plants through what looks (and probably feels) like human\nskin would\nbe a really, really good trick." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's chemoautotrophy, though of course it alone can't account for everything." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "- Who says the green man isn't engineered to be more efficient in his storage\nof energy\n- Who says the green man isn't engineered to be more efficient in his usage of\nenergy" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's not enough at 100% efficiency, as Jeff said." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey, I didn't say production, I said storage and usage. He can store a lot \nwhen idle and use it more efficiently than we do later on.\nFor one thing, if he doesn't have digestion, he can do away with a lot of \ncostly organs.\nThen again I recall his being minute; that may not mean anything in terms of \nsurface / mass, but it may mean a simplified internal structure, including \nlighter raw materials." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, I'm imagining a world with many fusion plants powering LEDs that shine\non\ngreen people as they sleep. Including shining on them from below through\ntransparent\nwater or air mattresses.\n\nHowever however, I suspect Wolfe just committed the Sin Against Niven and didn't\nthink it through." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think so, because if he hadn't something in mind he just wouldn't \nhave put him there. It's not the king of thing he does. He doesn't put \nLittle Green Men in a story just to showcase the cool idea of living on \nchlorophyll. Or maybe he though 'well, this is the classic discredited idea, \nbut it's cool, and who's to say it really can't be made to work, so I'll \njust annoy those pesky types'. (Well, I don't know that GW would willingly \nannoy anyone.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(Interestingly, one corollary of your idea is that a moving, talking plant is\nan evolutionary impossibility.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If by \"plant\" you mean \"something that gets most of its energy from\nphotosynthesis on Earth\nas it is now\", it would have to move a lot less than us." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One thing is certain, whatever the biology of the green man, if he really \ndoesn't ever get any more nourishment than sunlight, then it's very \ndifferent from ours. (Of course one can posit some unknown source of energy, \nbut then, as Pedro points out, the whole 'green' thing would be pointless \nand cheap.)\n\nMy point was just that one can't counter it scientifically. One can say it's \nunlikely, but not that it's sheer fantasy. We don't have a close enough \nscrutiny of the green man in order to say so." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D339F1F.7090407@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-17T01:45:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "<1B56F07BC973400882DB15AE5D82C420@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/16/2011 6:53 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nFurthermore, Severian has a personal link to the White Fountain. Nobody\nelse in his time can access its power. Why should Green Men from the\nfuture be able to use it? Seemingly, they don;t even know that the Sun\nhas been restored anyway, which also indicates that they have found some\nother means of walking the Corridors." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sev uses the White Fountain power before he knows he's using it, so \nawareness is not required. His connection seems to be established by the \nlight shining on him from the sky, so perhaps the fountain emits a \nspecial frequency chosen by the Yesodis to resonate with something in \nSeverian's body as determined from Sev's genetic material; a thin line \nof color Severian in its emission spectrum.\n\nThen, some Yesodi plot also needs furthering and some Hierarch has it \nseen to that the green men's algae also respond to this particular \nfrequency of light. Imagine a race of pacifists who never need to kill \nto eat, not directly or even to clear land or or protect crops, born to \nrejoice in the light and die as needed by the grim doers of the \nnecessary. Might they ascend to the stations of the Hieros all the sooner?\n\n To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose in \nYesod...." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D33A6CD.10309@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-17T02:17:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "<427784.4810.qm@web114705.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/16/2011 6:31 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nHe's \"the color of pale jade\". This means he absorbs less visible light than\ncurrent\nplants (Ribes?). If Wolfe had said \"blackish jade\", it would have been a step\nin the\ndirection of plausibility." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He might be bleached out from lack of light, the way grass is when \nsomething is left covering it for a few days, then removed. On his \nsecond appearance, he is merely jade colored, indicating a partial recovery." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, I'm imagining a world with many fusion plants powering LEDs that shine\non\ngreen people as they sleep. Including shining on them from below through\ntransparent\nwater or air mattresses." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The green man seems almost atechnological. He wears a kilt for modesty, \nbut despite having the run of Severian's lifetime, he doesn't bother to \nstop for anything else that might help him rescue Severian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However however, I suspect Wolfe just committed the Sin Against Niven and didn't\nthink it through." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Niven's one to talk! Actually, Niven fesses up to lots of \"didn't think \nit through\" moments, though I can't believe he didn't intentionally \nstick the fossil record under the rug when he decided 1) Kzinti and \nhumans are descended from a virus, 2) primates are descended from \naliens, and 3) all of the above are descended from feedstock designed by \nstill another alien race for the benefit of still another unrelated \nalien race." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-17T04:07:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "<4D33A6CD.10309@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, some interesting discussion. I would agree with those who suggest the\nonly way for the green man to work as he claims is to have super Yesod-algae \nwhich access and harness the energy from another universe.\n \nOR\n \nWe can notice how the green man describes himself when asked by Severian,\n\"What are you?\"\n \n\"A great seer. A great liar...\"\n \nSomeone above noted the right bit of evidence..he has a nice set of teeth.\nExactly how does evolution allow for that? Needs a nice smile? \n \nSpeaking of evolution allows Severian one of his cleverest lines. The green man\nis explaining that he is not a plant because evolution could not allow a plant to \nfollow the same pathway to become a human form. Severian answers:\n \n\"The same thing might be said of stones, yet there are statues\"\n \nThe clues are there. This is not a product of the higher evolution of humanity. \nThis is a construct. A disguise, I think. A trick to get Severian to favor a\nfuture for humanity which will actually wipe it out.\n \nThe green man is given teeth so he can smile. But just as Father Inire's smile\ndoes not fool Thecla, the green man's laugh does not fool Severian. Something is\nwrong here. There are forces on Urth that do not want the oceans to freeze. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<302526.48935.qm@web114708.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-01-17T04:20:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "<4D33A6CD.10309@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/16/2011 6:31 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He's \"the color of pale jade\". This means he absorbs less visible light \nthan\n current\nplants (Ribes?). If Wolfe had said \"blackish jade\", it would have been a \nstep\nin the\ndirection of plausibility." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He might be bleached out from lack of light, the way grass is when something \nis left covering it for a few days, then removed. On his second appearance, he \nis merely jade colored, indicating a partial recovery." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good one. I really should have figured that out.\n\nHowever, the reason for this phenomenon of etiolation seems to be so the plant \ncan\nput its resources into growth to reach the sun and not into chlorophyll in the \ndark,\nwhich will be useless.\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=0ZtXx54h75MC&pg=PA745#v=onepage&q&f=false\n\nThis wouldn't apply to the green man--I can't see why he'd etiolate when he's \ngenetically\nengineered and it would be better for him always to be ready to photosynthesize.\n\n(For that matter, it doesn't apply to algae, most of which do form chlorophyll \nin the dark,\nas implied in the above reference and stated in\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=r808AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA55&lpg=PA55#v=onepage&q&f=false\n\n)\n\nAlso, why wouldn't he wait till he was completely recovered? And given that his\nalgae are genetically engineered, why shouldn't he be black (or fuligin), or \ngray when\nfaded? Answer: because green is a cooler color for a photosynthetic man. Same\nreason he's shaped like a man instead of having big leaves or membranes or\nsomething." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "However, I'm imagining a world with many fusion plants powering LEDs that \nshine\non green people as they sleep. Including shining on them from below \nthrough\ntransparent water or air mattresses." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The green man seems almost atechnological. He wears a kilt for modesty," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which I suspect is the showman's idea, by the way. Modesty doesn't make much\nsense for people who need light, and no sense at all if they're short of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "but despite having the run of Severian's lifetime, he doesn't bother to stop \nfor anything else that might help him rescue Severian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's an interesting point. His kind was created by technology--has it been \nlost by\nhis time? Or is he just not involved in it? Anyway, maybe he sees that he can \nrescue\nSeverian without anything." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "However however, I suspect Wolfe just committed the Sin Against Niven and \ndidn't\nthink it through." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Niven's one to talk! Actually, Niven fesses up to lots of \"didn't think it \nthrough\" moments, though I can't believe he didn't intentionally stick the \nfossil record under the rug when he decided 1) Kzinti and humans are descended \nfrom a virus, 2) primates are descended from aliens, and 3) all of the above \nare descended from feedstock designed by still another alien race for the \nbenefit of still another unrelated alien race." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or maybe \"knowingly\" more than \"intentionally\". That is, his goal wasn't to \nmake it implausible;\nthat was just the price he had to pay. (This could apply to Wolfe too, contrary \nto what I said.)\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<332650.95767.qm@web114701.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-01-17T04:46:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "<302526.48935.qm@web114708.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jerry Friedman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 1/16/2011 6:31 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "He's \"the color of pale jade\". This means he absorbs less visible light " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "than current\nplants (Ribes?). If Wolfe had said \"blackish jade\", it would have been a " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "step in the direction of plausibility." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He might be bleached out from lack of light, the way grass is when \nsomething " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "is left covering it for a few days, then removed. On his second appearance, \nhe " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "is merely jade colored, indicating a partial recovery." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Good one. I really should have figured that out.\n\nHowever, the reason for this phenomenon of etiolation seems to be so the plant \n\ncan\nput its resources into growth to reach the sun and not into chlorophyll in the \n\ndark, which will be useless.\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=0ZtXx54h75MC&pg=PA745#v=onepage&q&f=false\n\nThis wouldn't apply to the green man--I can't see why he'd etiolate when he's " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "genetically engineered and it would be better for him always to be ready to\nphotosynthesize." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, if green people are trapped in the dark, maybe they should be using their\nresources to get out of the trap, so maybe it would make sense for their algae \nto\nbe engineered to etiolate.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D33CAE9.7080302@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-17T04:51:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/16/2011 10:07 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\nWell, some interesting discussion. I would agree with those who suggest the\nonly way for the green man to work as he claims is to have super Yesod-algae\nwhich access and harness the energy from another universe.\n\nOR\n\nWe can notice how the green man describes himself when asked by Severian,\n\"What are you?\"\n\n\"A great seer. A great liar...\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"...like every man whose foot is in a trap.\" So he admits he will lie to \nget out of a trap, and the algae explanation comes when he is hopeful \nSeverian will help him get out. However, telling the truth in a way it \nwill not be believed is also a method lying, and fits in with his \npractice of driving off patrons with dire fortunes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Someone above noted the right bit of evidence..he has a nice set of teeth.\nExactly how does evolution allow for that? Needs a nice smile?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The same way it apparently allows for contemporary humans to have wisdom \nteeth, appendixes, male nipples, sense of humor, musical aptitude, etc." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-17T05:56:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "<4D33CAE9.7080302@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Exactly how does evolution allow for that?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: The same way it apparently allows for contemporary humans to have wisdom \nteeth, appendixes, male nipples, sense of humor, musical aptitude, etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNot quite getting your examples. But perhaps not fair since you are dwelling into my own \nfield of expertise. Sense of humor and musical aptitude seem to be social adaptations which \nare fully funciontal in our modern human world.\n \nWisdom teeth are a problem for modern humans because our jaws are shorter than our ancestors'\nwhile number of teeth is a more persistent trait. \n \nMale nipples are a product of gestational development. We all start with the same basic template\nand our parts are formed into male and female by presence or absence of testosterone derivatives.\nPenis/clitoris, scrotal sac/vulva, testes/ovaries, nipples, all have their male/female analogs. \n(that's why a boy baby's testes start in the abdomen and drop down later).\n \nNow appendix is on the right track! It is a vestigal structure, left over from when we were herbivores\nand (like cows) needed that extra \"stomach\" to digest a high fibrous diet. \n \nBut an appendix is a little, shrimpy, non-functional thing. The green man seems far more evolutionarily\ndistanced from us humans than a leaf-eating ape is. Maybe having some ill-formed calciferous stumps\nleft in his mouth would make Wolfe's evolutionary point.\n \nBut having fully formed, nice looking teeth makes the opposite argument. As do the outrageous scientific\ncontortions needed to justify algae-based human life. \n \nThe green man, as he admits, is lying. He is not evolved, he is not the future of humanity. He is the Trickster.\nHis very name, Green Man, invokes a satanic (to Christians) pagan deity. A horned god of the vine.\n \nJeff, you know what I'm talking about. I understand the annoyance of its global impact on the story. But,\nthere it is. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D33DE69.6000009@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-17T06:15:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/16/2011 11:56 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Exactly how does evolution allow for that?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: The same way it apparently allows for contemporary humans to have wisdom\nteeth, appendixes, male nipples, sense of humor, musical aptitude, etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not quite getting your examples. But perhaps not fair since you are dwelling into my own\nfield of expertise. Sense of humor and musical aptitude seem to be social adaptations which\nare fully funciontal in our modern human world." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They function, but they have marginal impact on selection at best. \nparticular features don't have to be advantageous , only that the \noverall incremental change is positive. The green man's teeth don't have \nto be especially gainful any more to still be there, the way the above \nfeatures are still present despite outliving their necessity or not \nespecially having one to begin with, who knows?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The green man, as he admits, is lying. He is not evolved, he is not the future of humanity. He is the Trickster.\nHis very name, Green Man, invokes a satanic (to Christians) pagan deity. A horned god of the vine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He doesn't say he's evolved, so he's not lying about that." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<187790.68450.qm@web114712.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-01-17T06:27:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "<4D33CAE9.7080302@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/16/2011 10:07 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip interesting points]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Someone above noted the right bit of evidence..he has a nice set of teeth.\nExactly how does evolution allow for that? Needs a nice smile?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The same way it apparently allows for contemporary humans to have wisdom \nteeth, appendixes, male nipples, sense of humor, musical aptitude, etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Surely the green man would be an example of genetic engineering, not evolution.\nHe says they've altered the algae, so why wouldn't they have altered themselves?\n\nIt's possible that in doing so, they preferred to keep their human shape, \nincluding\nteeth, no extra surface, and something (fat?) filling the abdomen where their \ndigestive\norgans used to be, since Antonio pointed out they don't need them. It's also \npossible\nthat green people eat for pleasure and supplemental nutrition as long as it \ndoesn't\ninvolve killing anything (fruit, dairy products, synthetic food).\n\nI can't put much stock in his saying \"a great liar\", since he has another reason \nto\nsay that, and I don't see why he'd give Severian even that much of a hint. And \nhe\ndoesn't say he lies all the time. However, I think you've raised a good \npossibility\nthat he's a fake put in Severian's path by whoever wants the New Sun.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D33E360.7040509@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-17T06:36:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "<187790.68450.qm@web114712.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 1/17/2011 12:27 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: Jeff Wilson" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 1/16/2011 10:07 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[snip interesting points]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Someone above noted the right bit of evidence..he has a nice set of teeth.\nExactly how does evolution allow for that? Needs a nice smile?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The same way it apparently allows for contemporary humans to have wisdom\nteeth, appendixes, male nipples, sense of humor, musical aptitude, etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Surely the green man would be an example of genetic engineering, not evolution.\nHe says they've altered the algae, so why wouldn't they have altered themselves?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They would, but not more than the Author would consider repectful of the \nCreator." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "doesn't say he lies all the time. However, I think you've raised a good\npossibility\nthat he's a fake put in Severian's path by whoever wants the New Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But there seems to be something of a tradition of enslaving green men as \ncaptive oracles. And why can't he be authentic and still be put in \nSeverian's path, eh?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-17T13:21:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "<4D33E360.7040509@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: They [teeth] function, but they have marginal impact on selection at best. \nparticular features don't have to be advantageous , only that the overall incremental \nchange is positive." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThis makes sense using an ideal version of natural selection. In practice, there seems to\nbe a maintenance factor involved. Meaning that if an organism's structure is neutral in\nregard to natural selection it will tend to accumulate negative mutations just in the\ncourse of not being maintained. Thus cave fish lose their eyes to become \nnon-functioning bumps of tissue; not because a working eye is selected against by pitch\ndark but because deforming mutations are not selected against and pile up over the generations.\nPerhaps the same for the human appendix, baby toe, etc. The green man's teeth should be\ndeformed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman: Surely the green man would be an example of genetic engineering, not evolution.\nHe says they've altered the algae, so why wouldn't they have altered themselves? It's possible that \nin doing so, they preferred to keep their human shape, including teeth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThis seems to be the necessary argument to retain any legitimacy to the green man, bolstered by \nSeverian's \"stones to statues\" argument. But it might be simpler and tie the story together if\nhe is a liar and not a legitimate end product of humanity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can't put much stock in his saying \"a great liar\", since he has another reason \nto say that, and I don't see why he'd give Severian even that much of a hint." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWhat other reason? Why would ANYONE say they were a liar? As we are at least partially aware, he\nsays he is a liar because Gene Wolfe makes him say so. It is Gene Wolfe giving us a hint, as a\ngood storyteller/puzzle maker must. The only people who say they are liars are..well....liars. \nLiars hoping that a bit of honesty will seduce a perceptive listener into believing the lie anyway \n(which is what has happened here).**" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And he doesn't say he lies all the time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nheh. That statement would create a logic paradox. Think of all the logic puzzles involving liars and \ntruth tellers...well, hopefully you know what I mean." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, I think you've raised a good possibility that he's a fake put in Severian's path by whoever \nwants the New Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nFair enough. I never mean for my theories to be any more than possible interpretations. But I'll suggest \nthat the \"whoever\" doesn't have to be quite such a mystery. There is another character who seems to have \naccess to the Corridors of Time. She also has an association with green algae. What is the source of the \nundine? Perhaps you'll find the source of the green man in the same place. If one can pinch off \"daughter-\nbrides\"... BTW, in keeping with the androgynous, dionysian theme, the green man's voice is \"saved from \nwomanishness only by its depth\".\n \nMore evidence that Abaia, et al. are surreptitiously pushing FOR the New Sun/Flood can be found when we \nfirst encounter undines, which is in Severian's Baldanders-induced dream: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"we are the brides of Abaia. The sweethearts and playthings...Here we feed, floating and growing until we \nare great enough to mate with Abaia, who will one day devour the continents.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \n \n**as a bit of possibly helpful advice in dealing with human social interactions, whenever someone starts a \nsentence with the phrase, \"To be honest...\" or something like that, the person is sub-consciously \nacknowledging a general pattern of dishonesty in their communication. Liars use this phrase all the time.\n \nIt doesn't have to be completely malicious. Some people habitually lie in saying nice things they don't \nreally mean and use \"To be honest with you...\" when making the rare critical statement. Gene Wole is VERY \naware of such interpersonal and self-deceptions in speech and uses them to great effect in his work.\n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<915491.4949.qm@web114717.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-01-17T16:20:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jerry Friedman: I can't put much stock in his saying \"a great liar\", since he \nhas another reason " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "to say that, and I don't see why he'd give Severian even that much of a \nhint." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What other reason? Why would ANYONE say they were a liar? As we are at least \npartially aware, he\nsays he is a liar because Gene Wolfe makes him say so. It is Gene Wolfe giving \nus a hint, as a\ngood storyteller/puzzle maker must. The only people who say they are liars \nare..well....liars. \n\nLiars hoping that a bit of honesty will seduce a perceptive listener into \nbelieving the lie anyway \n\n(which is what has happened here).**" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nThe other possible understanding of his comment might be \"It should be obvious \nthat\nmy fortune-telling will be lies, since my foot's caught in a trap. If you don't \nwant to\nhear lies, we can talk about what's important to me--my foot's caught in a \ntrap.\"\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<293793.77303.qm@web114713.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-01-17T16:29:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "<4D33E360.7040509@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/17/2011 12:27 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 1/16/2011 10:07 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "[snip interesting points]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Someone above noted the right bit of evidence..he has a nice set of \nteeth.\nExactly how does evolution allow for that? Needs a nice smile?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The same way it apparently allows for contemporary humans to have wisdom\nteeth, appendixes, male nipples, sense of humor, musical aptitude, etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Surely the green man would be an example of genetic engineering, not \nevolution.\nHe says they've altered the algae, so why wouldn't they have altered \nthemselves?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They would, but not more than the Author would consider repectful of the \nCreator." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do we know that the green people or their creators share the Author's views\nof respect toward the Creator? And do the various man-beasts show us the\nlimits of that? Wings the size of the anpiels' would be very handy for\nphotosynthetic people." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " doesn't say he lies all the time. However, I think you've raised a good\npossibility\nthat he's a fake put in Severian's path by whoever wants the New Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But there seems to be something of a tradition of enslaving green men as \ncaptive oracles." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a good point. We could perhaps imagine that the others have had\nother purposes, such as carrying messages that will be believed when a\ncacogen wouldn't be." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And why can't he be authentic and still be put in Severian's path, eh?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because of all the things we've been discussing: He should be a darker\ncolor and have a different appearance (rather like an inhumu--just\nkidding), and there's not enough energy in sunlight.\n\nThere are answers to all the arguments on either side, and it seems\nambiguous to me.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D347FDB.706@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-17T17:43:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "<293793.77303.qm@web114713.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 1/17/2011 10:29 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: Jeff Wilson" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 1/17/2011 12:27 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 1/16/2011 10:07 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "He says they've altered the algae, so why wouldn't they have altered\nthemselves?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "They would, but not more than the Author would consider repectful of the\nCreator." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do we know that the green people or their creators share the Author's views\nof respect toward the Creator? And do the various man-beasts show us the\nlimits of that? Wings the size of the anpiels' would be very handy for\nphotosynthetic people." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think those Smithian underpeople are supposed to represent \nmovement toward the Christian ideal the way the ideal green man concept \nis. And I don't think a guy who considers BEN HUR possibly disrepsectful \nfor fictionalizing parts of the gospel is going to choose to depict the \npath to salvation as requiring people to forsake the form Christ gave \nthem at the Creation and become gutless, leafy freaks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But there seems to be something of a tradition of enslaving green men as\ncaptive oracles." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's a good point. We could perhaps imagine that the others have had\nother purposes, such as carrying messages that will be believed when a\ncacogen wouldn't be." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Plausible, but that would again favor my idea that the Yesodis use them \nas part of their master plot. Attuning them to the White Fountain gives \nthem the run of human history and a certain amount of prehistory, but \nkeeps them from being able to accidentally step on the wrong butterfly \nin the Jurassic or prevent the formation of life itself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And why can't he be authentic and still be put in Severian's path, eh?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because of all the things we've been discussing: He should be a darker\ncolor and have a different appearance (rather like an inhumu--just\nkidding), and there's not enough energy in sunlight." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We can't discount things with bogus physical explanations as fake; \nflyers still fly despite anti-iron having positive mass, and the Ship \nstill flies to the end of the universe despite relativity and the light \nsails' abysmal thrust." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D34DC60.70909@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-18T00:18:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/17/2011 7:21 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: They [teeth] function, but they have marginal impact on selection at best.\nparticular features don't have to be advantageous , only that the overall incremental\nchange is positive." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This makes sense using an ideal version of natural selection. In practice, there seems to\nbe a maintenance factor involved. Meaning that if an organism's structure is neutral in\nregard to natural selection it will tend to accumulate negative mutations just in the\ncourse of not being maintained. Thus cave fish lose their eyes to become\nnon-functioning bumps of tissue; not because a working eye is selected against by pitch\ndark but because deforming mutations are not selected against and pile up over the generations.\nPerhaps the same for the human appendix, baby toe, etc. The green man's teeth should be\ndeformed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sexual selection? Crap teeth aren't sexy." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-18T01:57:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "<4D34DC60.70909@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The green man's teeth should be deformed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Sexual selection? Crap teeth aren't sexy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nLMAO good one Jeff! I really did laugh thinking of the green\nman giving some green woman the sexy smile on a date (being careful \nnot to ruin things with that pesky alzabo laugh).\n \nGreen women are a funny idea too. Do they have sexy green breasts?\n(watch out for James T. Kirk on the prowl!) I am tempted but too mature \nto make a V-8 joke here. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<221559.86179.qm@web81404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2011-01-18T02:08:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I recently passed a pub called \"The Green Man\" in London between the Euston Station and the St Pancras Station....sigh....\nEuston connects London to the North and Midlands of England and? the St Pancras station is the Eurostar hub to Europe....\n\nOK, lads....have at it....\n\nhehehe\n???????? ? ? " } ] }, { "message_id": "<381847.53672.qm@web81402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2011-01-18T02:10:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "<221559.86179.qm@web81404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...on Marylebone Road...which goes right by 24 Baker Street....BRING IT!!!!!!!!!!\n\n???????? ? ? \n?Mobile — (415) 786-3624\nSTUHAMM.COM\nFACEBOOK/STUARTHAMM\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\nSkype? stuart.hamm\n? ?? \n\n\n--- On Mon, 1/17/11, Stuart Hamm\n wrote:\n\nFrom: Stuart Hamm \nSubject: Re: (urth) The green man is a fake\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, January 17, 2011, 6:08 PM\n\nI recently passed a pub called \"The Green Man\" in London between the Euston\n Station and the St Pancras Station....sigh....\nEuston connects London to the North and Midlands of England and? the St Pancras station is the Eurostar hub to Europe....\n\nOK, lads....have at it....\n\nhehehe\n???????? ? ? \n\n\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D34F8E1.7010900@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-18T02:20:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "<221559.86179.qm@web81404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/17/2011 8:08 PM, Stuart Hamm wrote:\nI recently passed a pub called \"The Green Man\" in London between the\nEuston Station and the St Pancras Station....sigh...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sev's green man is tropically related to the celtic green man of \nknowledge and the leprechaun. You have to catch and hold him, but yields \nup prophecy and wisdom instead of a pot of gold.\nAnd when he's loose he vanishes in a flash!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-18T02:54:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "<4D34F8E1.7010900@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stuart Hamm: I recently passed a pub called \"The Green Man\" in London" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI suspect a Celtic, Druidic origin to the name. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D35799E.5060103@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-18T11:29:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "<4D33DE69.6000009@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (17-01-2011 06:15):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The green man's teeth don't have to be especially gainful any more to\nstill be there, the way the above features are still present despite\noutliving their necessity or not especially having one to begin with, who\nknows?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Nearly all sickness is from the teeth\" (The Third Policeman). Well, maybe \nthat doesn't apply if you don't eat [vegetable matter] a lot." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D3579F3.5080607@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-18T11:30:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "<4D34DC60.70909@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (18-01-2011 00:18):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sexual selection? Crap teeth aren't sexy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Without teeth, language becomes impaired." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D357AAA.5@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-18T11:34:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "<4D3579F3.5080607@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote (18-01-2011 11:30):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (18-01-2011 00:18):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sexual selection? Crap teeth aren't sexy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Without teeth, language becomes impaired." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Speech, I meant, though if enough people have deficient speech then it will \nbecome a problem of the language itself." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D35E603.8020304@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-18T19:12:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "<4D357AAA.5@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/18/2011 5:34 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nAnt?nio Pedro Marques wrote (18-01-2011 11:30):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (18-01-2011 00:18):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Sexual selection? Crap teeth aren't sexy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Without teeth, language becomes impaired." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Speech, I meant, though if enough people have deficient speech then it\nwill become a problem of the language itself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "With no need of cooperative effort to secure food, the advantage of \nspeech is greatly reduced." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D362339.2070600@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-18T23:33:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is a fake", "in_reply_to": "<4D35E603.8020304@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (18-01-2011 19:12):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/18/2011 5:34 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote (18-01-2011 11:30):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (18-01-2011 00:18):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Sexual selection? Crap teeth aren't sexy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Without teeth, language becomes impaired." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Speech, I meant, though if enough people have deficient speech then it\nwill become a problem of the language itself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "With no need of cooperative effort to secure food, the advantage of\nspeech is greatly reduced." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think we really wanna go down that road." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2011-01-19T00:05:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe response to questionnaire NYRSF 268", "in_reply_to": "<4D362339.2070600@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe gave a brief response to a questionnaire sent out to writers by \nBarbara Bengels (\"The Care and Feeding of Science Fiction Writers\"):\n\nA formative moment in which you decided to become a writer? \"There was \nnone...\" Roommate asked GW to contribute stories to the student magazine\nso he could illustrate them.\n\nAnd specifically SF? \"I have never considered myself an sf writer, just a \nwriter who writes some sf.\"\n\nand on encouraging the young\n\n\"There was a little kid over on Banks Street who borrowed my sf magazines \nafter I had read them. His name was John Cramer, and he bacame a nuclear \nphysicist [and SF writer]\". Not a story I had heard before.\n\nCheers, David Duffy," } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-19T00:31:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe response to questionnaire NYRSF 268", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not directly related, but io9 ran an interview with Wolfe today:\n\nhttp://io9.com/5736063/gene-wolfe-talks-dystopian-futures-and-the-chances-of-star+drive-in-our-lifetime\n\n-Matt" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 7:05 PM, David Duffy wrote:\nWolfe gave a brief response to a questionnaire sent out to writers by\nBarbara Bengels (\"The Care and Feeding of Science Fiction Writers\"):\n\nA formative moment in which you decided to become a writer? \"There was\nnone...\" Roommate asked GW to contribute stories to the student magazine\nso he could illustrate them.\n\nAnd specifically SF? \"I have never considered myself an sf writer, just a\nwriter who writes some sf.\"\n\nand on encouraging the young\n\n\"There was a little kid over on Banks Street who borrowed my sf magazines\nafter I had read them. His name was John Cramer, and he bacame a nuclear\nphysicist [and SF writer]\". Not a story I had heard before.\n\nCheers, David Duffy,\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-19T00:54:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe response to questionnaire NYRSF 268", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message ----- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"David Duffy\" \nWolfe gave a brief response to a questionnaire sent out to writers by \nBarbara Bengels (\"The Care and Feeding of Science Fiction Writers\"):\nand on encouraging the young\n\n\"There was a little kid over on Banks Street who borrowed my sf magazines \nafter I had read them. His name was John Cramer, and he bacame a nuclear \nphysicist [and SF writer]\". Not a story I had heard before." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe gave Cramer a namecheck in the short story Procreation.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8DB01F5A-47EE-4E92-9C2E-ECD54A2428D0@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2011-01-19T00:57:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe response to questionnaire NYRSF 268", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for the article.\n\"But people seem to look at mine and expect to find hidden fingerprints under the lily pad or something. I've heard some really nutty theories about my stories — I won't name names, but there's some real screwball stuff going on out there.\"\n\nHehehe.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 18, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Matthew Keeley wrote:\nNot directly related, but io9 ran an interview with Wolfe today:\n\nhttp://io9.com/5736063/gene-wolfe-talks-dystopian-futures-and-the-chances-of-star+drive-in-our-lifetime\n\n-Matt\n\nOn Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 7:05 PM, David Duffy wrote:\nWolfe gave a brief response to a questionnaire sent out to writers by Barbara Bengels (\"The Care and Feeding of Science Fiction Writers\"):\n\nA formative moment in which you decided to become a writer? \"There was none...\" Roommate asked GW to contribute stories to the student magazine\nso he could illustrate them.\n\nAnd specifically SF? \"I have never considered myself an sf writer, just a writer who writes some sf.\"\n\nand on encouraging the young\n\n\"There was a little kid over on Banks Street who borrowed my sf magazines after I had read them. His name was John Cramer, and he bacame a nuclear physicist [and SF writer]\". Not a story I had heard before.\n\nCheers, David Duffy,\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<793096.86764.qm@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-01-19T01:47:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe response to questionnaire NYRSF 268", "in_reply_to": "<8DB01F5A-47EE-4E92-9C2E-ECD54A2428D0@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Tue, 1/18/11, Son of Witz wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\nThanks for the article.\n\"But people seem to look at mine and expect to find hidden fingerprints under the lily pad or something. I've heard some really nutty theories about my stories — I won't name names, but there's some real screwball stuff going on out there.\"\n\n\nUh ... ehmmm ... (he has no one to blame but himself, right James?)\n\nI've got it!!!!!!!? He's talking about Borski!? Borski and the onomastics, yes!\n\nthat part at the top where it says \"some people do\" get it, well, there you go. whew. That was close. Thank God for Borski and Wright's books to absorb the impact of the above quote!!!!!!\n\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D365D8E.2040703@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-19T03:42:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe response to questionnaire NYRSF 268", "in_reply_to": "<793096.86764.qm@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Uh ... ehmmm ... (he has no one to blame but himself, right James?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Definitely. Right now I'm imagining Wolfe with wide eyes and a finger to \nhis puckered lips:\n\"Oops! I was I unclear?\"" } ] } ] }