{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5909", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5909, "subject": "(no subject)", "messages": 11, "voices": 5, "first": "2011-01-16T20:21:38+00:00", "last": "2011-01-17T06:29:20+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-16T20:21:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nDidn't Sev pointedly reject Daria?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He did at first. I'm not sure what happened after that. I think he\ndoes sometimes list her with other women who have been his lovers , so\nit may be that the refusal was an act. But as Lee pointed out, the\nkahibit might do for 'servant of the throne' as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Apheta - cacogen. (She would certainly be called that if she came to Urth.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yea and no; \"cacogen\" is Urthspeak for Bug Eyed Monster, and hierodules\nwear scary monster masks when they visit Urth undercover. Apheta, being\na hierarch, doesn't need a disguise because she appears outwardly human\nand if she reveals herself to be an exalted being, well, \"divine\nmessenger\" is right up there just under the Autarch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'Cacogen' is used at times for all aliens, incuding Inire and the\nCumaean, who don't disguise themselves as monsters. Certainly the name\nreflects a sense that aliens are monstrous, but it doesn't seem to be\nlimited to those who wear monster masks." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2011-01-16T22:31:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 16 Jan 2011, Andrew Mason wrote:\n'Cacogen' is used at times for all aliens, incuding Inire and the\nCumaean, who don't disguise themselves as monsters. Certainly the name\nreflects a sense that aliens are monstrous, but it doesn't seem to be\nlimited to those who wear monster masks." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe they smile a lot..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D33765E.70903@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-16T22:51:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/16/2011 2:21 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Apheta - cacogen. (She would certainly be called that if she came to Urth.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yea and no; \"cacogen\" is Urthspeak for Bug Eyed Monster, and hierodules\nwear scary monster masks when they visit Urth undercover. Apheta, being\na hierarch, doesn't need a disguise because she appears outwardly human\nand if she reveals herself to be an exalted being, well, \"divine\nmessenger\" is right up there just under the Autarch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "'Cacogen' is used at times for all aliens, incuding Inire and the\nCumaean, who don't disguise themselves as monsters. Certainly the name\nreflects a sense that aliens are monstrous, but it doesn't seem to be\nlimited to those who wear monster masks." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Inire and the Cumaean are not widely known to be nonhuman, outside their \ncircle of acquaintances. \"'Just a little man he is, with a wry neck and \nbow legs.'\" This is possible in part because of the masquerade their \n\"cousins\" maintain." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<415273.77081.qm@web114717.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-01-17T01:26:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Andrew Mason " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Didn't Sev pointedly reject Daria?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He did at first. I'm not sure what happened after that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He got her to run away, pulled her down by her ankle, and tore her shift off. I\nthink they had sex after that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think he\ndoes sometimes list her with other women who have been his lovers , so\nit may be that the refusal was an act." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nMaybe to point out, as he says, that she has no power over him.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D33A98B.4070901@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-17T02:29:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<415273.77081.qm@web114717.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 1/16/2011 7:26 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: Andrew Mason" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Didn't Sev pointedly reject Daria?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He did at first. I'm not sure what happened after that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He got her to run away, pulled her down by her ankle, and tore her shift off. I\nthink they had sex after that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think he\ndoes sometimes list her with other women who have been his lovers , so\nit may be that the refusal was an act." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...\n\nMaybe to point out, as he says, that she has no power over him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "this includes not wanting to have sex with her. \"'There is only one \nliving woman I desire, and no man but myself.'\" Presumably the only \nwoman is Agia, and getting it on with Daria would rather undermine the \nimpression he had been laboring to make on her." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D33C168.102@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-17T04:11:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<4D33A98B.4070901@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 01/16/2011 08:29 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nthis includes not wanting to have sex with her. \"'There is only one \nliving woman I desire, and no man but myself.'\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Given the number of Severian Iterations....this might mean something \ndifferent than we all think it does.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D33C75F.6090503@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-17T04:36:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<4D33C168.102@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/16/2011 10:11 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\nOn 01/16/2011 08:29 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "this includes not wanting to have sex with her. \"'There is only one\nliving woman I desire, and no man but myself.'\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Given the number of Severian Iterations....this might mean something\ndifferent than we all think it does." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*Bow-chicka-bow-wow!*\n\nDavid Gerrold did it first...and nth." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<909158.49255.qm@web114712.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-01-17T05:57:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<4D33C75F.6090503@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/16/2011 10:11 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 01/16/2011 08:29 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "this includes not wanting to have sex with her. \"'There is only one\nliving woman I desire, and no man but myself.'\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Given the number of Severian Iterations....this might mean something\ndifferent than we all think it does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*Bow-chicka-bow-wow!*\n\nDavid Gerrold did it first...and nth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heinlein did it earlier.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<813434.76487.qm@web114703.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-01-17T06:11:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<4D33A98B.4070901@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/16/2011 7:26 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: Andrew Mason" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Didn't Sev pointedly reject Daria?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "He did at first. I'm not sure what happened after that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He got her to run away, pulled her down by her ankle, and tore her shift \noff. I\nthink they had sex after that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think he\ndoes sometimes list her with other women who have been his lovers , so\nit may be that the refusal was an act." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...\n\nMaybe to point out, as he says, that she has no power over him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "this includes not wanting to have sex with her. \"'There is only one \nliving woman I desire, and no man but myself.'\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If that means he's not willing to have sex with any woman but one, it\nstarted after the encounter with Pia, and I remember no trace of this\nchange in him.\n\nI'm sure I've read that many times as \"There is only one living woman\nI desire, and I fear no man but myself.\" Yet my edition has it the way\nyou quoted it. Just my unconscious editor?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Presumably the only woman is Agia," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My first guess would have been Dorcas, and my second, Valeria." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and getting it on with Daria would rather undermine the \nimpression he had been laboring to make on her." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian's behavior in this whole scene is rude, crude, and socially\nunacceptable (as we said in junior high). Is your idea that he strips her\nnaked to underline the point that even then he doesn't want to have sex\nwith her? If he does reject her, that's pretty serious humiliation, and\nI'm surprised she's so friendly with him before the battle (Ch. XXI). But\nif he doesn't reject her, maybe she can write his actions off as the odd\nbehavior of johns.\n\nI think the point he's making is that she has no power over him, so\ntheir sex is going to be on his terms.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D33E05C.3040904@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-17T06:23:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<909158.49255.qm@web114712.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 1/16/2011 11:57 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: Jeff Wilson" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 1/16/2011 10:11 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 01/16/2011 08:29 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "this includes not wanting to have sex with her. \"'There is only one\nliving woman I desire, and no man but myself.'\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Given the number of Severian Iterations....this might mean something\ndifferent than we all think it does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*Bow-chicka-bow-wow!*\n\nDavid Gerrold did it first...and nth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heinlein did it earlier." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not exactly; Jane was straight in both self-identified sexes. Dan swung \nboth ways." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<998539.9985.qm@web114707.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-01-17T06:29:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<4D33E05C.3040904@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/16/2011 11:57 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 1/16/2011 10:11 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 01/16/2011 08:29 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "this includes not wanting to have sex with her. \"'There is only one\nliving woman I desire, and no man but myself.'\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Given the number of Severian Iterations....this might mean something\n different than we all think it does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " *Bow-chicka-bow-wow!*\n\nDavid Gerrold did it first...and nth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Heinlein did it earlier." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not exactly; Jane was straight in both self-identified sexes. Dan swung \nboth ways." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, I guess it depends on what \"it\" means.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] } ] }