Subject: (urth) (no subject)

From: Andrew Mason <andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2011 20:21:38 +0000

Jeff Wilson wrote:

> Didn't Sev pointedly reject Daria?

He did at first. I'm not sure what happened after that. I think he
does sometimes list her with other women who have been his lovers , so
it may be that the refusal was an act. But as Lee pointed out, the
kahibit might do for 'servant of the throne' as well.

>>> Apheta - cacogen. (She would certainly be called that if she came to Urth.)
>
> Yea and no; "cacogen" is Urthspeak for Bug Eyed Monster, and hierodules
> wear scary monster masks when they visit Urth undercover. Apheta, being
> a hierarch, doesn't need a disguise because she appears outwardly human
> and if she reveals herself to be an exalted being, well, "divine
> messenger" is right up there just under the Autarch.

'Cacogen' is used at times for all aliens, incuding Inire and the
Cumaean, who don't disguise themselves as monsters. Certainly the name
reflects a sense that aliens are monstrous, but it doesn't seem to be
limited to those who wear monster masks.

---

From: David Duffy <davidd at qimr.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2011 22:31:49 +0000

> limited to those who wear monster masks.

Maybe they smile a lot...

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2011 22:51:10 +0000

> limited to those who wear monster masks.

Inire and the Cumaean are not widely known to be nonhuman, outside their 
circle of acquaintances. "'Just a little man he is, with a wry neck and 
bow legs.'" This is possible in part because of the masquerade their 
"cousins" maintain.

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana
< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 01:26:26 +0000

> From: Andrew Mason <andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com>

> He did  at first. I'm not sure what happened after that.

He got her to run away, pulled her down by her ankle, and tore her shift off.  I
think they had sex after that.

> I think he
> it may be that the  refusal was an act.
...

Maybe to point out, as he says, that she has no power over him.

Jerry Friedman

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 02:29:31 +0000

On 1/16/2011 7:26 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> From: Andrew Mason<andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com>
>
>> Jeff Wilson wrote:
>>

this includes not wanting to have sex with her. "'There is only one 
living woman I desire, and no man but myself.'" Presumably the only 
woman is Agia, and getting it on with Daria would rather undermine the 
impression he had been laboring to make on her.

---

From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 04:11:20 +0000

On 01/16/2011 08:29 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:
> living woman I desire, and no man but myself.'"

Given the number of Severian Iterations....this might mean something 
different than we all think it does.

Adam

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 04:36:47 +0000

> different than we all think it does.

*Bow-chicka-bow-wow!*

David Gerrold did it first...and nth.

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 05:57:38 +0000

> From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>

> David Gerrold did it first...and  nth.

Heinlein did it earlier.

Jerry Friedman

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 06:11:15 +0000

> living woman I desire, and no man but  myself.'"

If that means he's not willing to have sex with any woman but one, it
started after the encounter with Pia, and I remember no trace of this
change in him.

I'm sure I've read that many times as "There is only one living woman
I desire, and I fear no man but myself."  Yet my edition has it the way
you quoted it.  Just my unconscious editor?

> Presumably the only  woman is Agia,

My first guess would have been Dorcas, and my second, Valeria.

> and getting it on with Daria  would rather undermine the 

Severian's behavior in this whole scene is rude, crude, and socially
unacceptable (as we said in junior high).  Is your idea that he strips her
naked to underline the point that even then he doesn't want to have sex
with her?  If he does reject her, that's pretty serious humiliation, and
I'm surprised she's so friendly with him before the battle (Ch. XXI).  But
if he doesn't reject her, maybe she can write his actions off as the odd
behavior of johns.

I think the point he's making is that she has no power over him, so
their sex is going to be on his terms.

Jerry Friedman

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 06:23:24 +0000

On 1/16/2011 11:57 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> From: Jeff Wilson<jwilson at io.com>
>

Not exactly; Jane was straight in both self-identified sexes. Dan swung 
both ways.

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 06:29:20 +0000

> Not  exactly; Jane was straight in both self-identified sexes. Dan swung 

Okay, I guess it depends on what "it" means.

Jerry Friedman