{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/591", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 591, "subject": "Timescale", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1998-05-11T11:07:37+00:00", "last": "1998-05-12T08:08:24+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy Oakes", "address": "ddanehyo at us.oracle.com" }, "date": "1998-05-11T11:07:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Timescale", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mr. Malthouse done wrote:\nThe age of Urth has, from my very first reason seemed to be\nimmense. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is no question about this. (Wolfe has never hidden that\none of his inspirations for this work was Jack Vance's \"The\nDying Earth.\") Some members of this list are interested --\nperhaps a bit nigglingly -- in just _how_ immense, just how\nold Urth is: or, more properly, in developing some clear\nsense of the intervals between at least the four periods\nthat follow, _probably_ in this order:\n\no Our time (or equivalent in the universe-cycle of Urth,\n which may precede ours)\no The time of Apu-Punchau (some have argued with some\n coherency that this is actually earlier than \"our time\")\no The time of Typhon, Ymir, and \"the Conciliator\"\no Severian's time\n\nAlso of possible interest is the time period of the people\nin the jungle garden (book 1); also, if \"the first Severian\"\nrefers to an actually seperate person, rather than a version\nof Severian himself, when he lived.\n\nFor myself, I think \"immense\" is good enough." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The miners of Saltus have for generations made a living\n(shaft) mining for ancient artifacts." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This, as far as it goes, could happen in a millenium or two --\ncheck out what some modern archaeologists do with ruins only\na couple millenia old." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Walking down the cliff trail to the forest house Severian\nnotes that the fault that lifted the cliff (a league high??)\nhas exposed the detritus of man's occupation, he even\ndescribes some of what he sees I think (floor tiles?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This, I think, is far more significant; we're clearly talking\nabout a time when humans have been making ceramics for \ngeological ages." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And finally the \"newer\" mountain ranges are recognisable as\nsuch because they are sharp and rugged - in contrast to the\n'old' mountain that have all be carved into the likeness of\npast Autarchs (rather than being softened from weathering). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Those are monarchs (or emperors), not Autarchs (Severian only\nthinks so as he sees them because he does not know their\nhistory)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Did Typhon start the fashion, or was he mearly the aprotheosis\nof it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Since he appears to have been the last of the monarchs, I'd say\nhe was its apotheosis. After him, came Ymir the Almost Just,\nfirst Autarch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In any case Typhon's coming to Urth (which I believe to be\nlong after its decline started) is at least one and possibly\nmany geological ages past." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is where I have to differ with you. It seems fairly\nclear that it hasn't been _too_ many millenia since the\nmonumental mountains were carved; their detailing is still\nclear and sharp. They'd erode, ya know." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "oh, and had anyone noticed that the sun looked a bit\ntired?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but before it's time; there is a \"worm\" eating at its\nheart (a black hole)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the light of the above I don't see much good to be\nhad trying to identify Nessus or other landmarks from our\nEarth, but to nay-say Buenos Aires: Nessus isn't and wasn't\na coastal city; the plate river isn't big enough; Severian\nturns the wrong way from Trax to reach a battlefront of an\ninvader coming from Centram AM. and in relation to the\nPlate/Andes Cen.Am is too far away (or the Andes to close)\nto be the \"waist of the world\" beyond which the Ascians can\nbe driven." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Any identity between Urth-places and Earth-places seems likely \nto be symbolic rather than physical. Early in the history of \nthis list, Agla made a quite interesting mapping of Severian's \njourneys onto (approximately tenth century) Europe, with Nessus \nas Byzantium. It's in the archives.\n\n\nPeace,\n\nRoach\n\n--------------------------------------------------------------------\n|--Dan'l Danehy-Oakes | Can you believe that the eagle |\n| Staff Curriculum Developer | will fly with the dove? |\n| Oracle World-Wide Education | Can you believe in the rose |\n| email: ddanehyo at us.oracle.com | in the raised fisted glove? |\n| phone: 650-506-0793 | -- John Michael Talbot |\n--------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "1998-05-12T08:08:24+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Timescale", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy Oakes wrote:\nFor myself, I think \"immense\" is good enough." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll go with that!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The miners of Saltus have for generations made a living\n(shaft) mining for ancient artifacts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This, as far as it goes, could happen in a millenium or two --\ncheck out what some modern archaeologists do with ruins only\na couple millenia old." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed.\n\nWriting that I became doubt stricken: the miners of Saltus plus the Autarch's\nsilver stash etc and I had the impression that the Saltus mines were deep\nshafts but couldn't, and still can't, remember if that were explicit in the\ntext. It'd make a difference if it were but the implication that _useful_\nartifacts could be had from below rock layers sort of confuses me. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Walking down the cliff trail to the forest house Severian" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This, I think, is far more significant; we're clearly talking\nabout a time when humans have been making ceramics for\ngeological ages." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh Yea! The impact that scene had on first reading still remains." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And finally the \"newer\" mountain ranges are recognisable as" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Those are monarchs (or emperors), not Autarchs (Severian only\nthinks so as he sees them because he does not know their\nhistory)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Forgive the \"Autarchs\" I wasn't thinking. The whole thing is subtle and creeps\nup on you. Severian's narration talks of the \"shoulders\" of the mountains in\nthe way we might use describing the geophysical formation - but then fails to\nmake a distinction between those and the carved shoulders of Typhon's image\nand you wonder what he really meant in using the phrase before. It sort of\ngrew on me that something odd was going on and then -bang- suddenly my whole\nperception of the landscape was radically changed, wonderful!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Since he appears to have been the last of the monarchs, I'd say\nhe was its apotheosis. After him, came Ymir the Almost Just,\nfirst Autarch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In any case Typhon's coming to Urth (which I believe to be\nlong after its decline started) is at least one and possibly\nmany geological ages past." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is where I have to differ with you. It seems fairly\nclear that it hasn't been _too_ many millenia since the\nmonumental mountains were carved; their detailing is still\nclear and sharp. They'd erode, ya know." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Granted that Typhon's features are still recognisable in the mountain then I'd\nagree it wasn't too old, and the latest as he wanted to outdo his\npredecessors. Here though, I'm hazy: I think that there's mention of some\nbeing eroded so far that one might not realise they'd ever been shaped. But\nright now I don't know if that's textual or just my over active imagination\nfilling in pieces. Time for a re-read I guess." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "oh, and had anyone noticed that the sun looked a bit\ntired?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but before it's time; there is a \"worm\" eating at its\nheart (a black hole)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doh!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Any identity between Urth-places and Earth-places seems likely\nto be symbolic rather than physical. Early in the history of\nthis list, Agla made a quite interesting mapping of Severian's\njourneys onto (approximately tenth century) Europe, with Nessus\nas Byzantium. It's in the archives." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks, I'll dig it out. I like the idea already though.\n\n\nAnd -alga- was kind enough to say:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Welcome, Matthew," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thankyou. Seems a nice place to be.\n\n[me say N. not coastal]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Um, Nessus isn't now but *was* a coastal city. Can't recall off-hand who,\nbut one of the \"wise\" characters (one of the ones we can trust) tells Sev\nthat. Which goes along with my own theory that Nessus is a post-Alexandria.\n(Oh, I know, I know, no one wants to hear this. But it's a lovely theory,\nand I can go on and on and......on.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sev's journey from the south coast took some days before he saw the first\nbuildings I thought. The Port of Nessus wasn't (as far as I can recall) a\nsea-port. I took that to be a deliberate obfustication along with the nature\nof the Citadel \"towers\".\n\nI quite like Nessus-as-Alexandria but... Oh, you know. :)\n\nMatthew" } ] } ] }